S03.E20: I Know Who You Are

[Argenta]

40 minutes ago, doram said:

She comes from the Manic Pixie Science Blonde assembly line. The same assembly line that generated Felicity Smoak and Patty Spivot. 

I think you're right about that. I couldn't stand Patty, either. Felicity I like in small doses such as guest shots on Flash, but she gets a bit much over the course of a full Arrow episode.

[johntfs]

Felicity Smoak is the high-end coutur version of that trope.  The others are discount knock-offs.

[Grace19]

something else I don't like about this show, they just don't want Barry to be great, why can't Barry do things himself? I was excited when I heard that Barry defeated Savitar and lucked him up in the speed force, imagine my surprise 2 episodes ago to discover, he didn't even do it, that Tracy was the one to figure it out. this Barry have never built anything since season one, how are we to buy he will build Gideon and the Savitar suit in the future?

[legaleagle53]

14 hours ago, Argenta said:

I find Tracy kind of irritating. I think she's a little ditzy. 

That's why she herself freaked out when she learned that she was destined to become one of the world's most respected and honored scientists in just a few years.  It reminded me of the scene in Star Trek: Generations where Zefram Cochrane learns that by the 24th Century, he is considered to be one of the greatest heroes of all time, and his instinctive reaction is to run away because he's afraid he'll never be able to live up to that reputation.

I think it's also why HR has clearly fallen for her.  He sees her as a kindred spirit, if not his possible soulmate.

Edited May 7, 2017 by legaleagle53

[GHScorpiosRule]

Because the show runner and current crop of writers are STOOPID.

[notagain]

5 hours ago, Grace19 said:

something else I don't like about this show, they just don't want Barry to be great, why can't Barry do things himself? I was excited when I heard that Barry defeated Savitar and lucked him up in the speed force, imagine my surprise 2 episodes ago to discover, he didn't even do it, that Tracy was the one to figure it out. this Barry have never built anything since season one, how are we to buy he will build Gideon and the Savitar suit in the future?

When Gideon was introduced in season one there was no evidence Barry had the intelligence or interest in computers to even suggest that he could create Gideon. That's no knock on Barry from me, I love the guy, but the way TPTB has structured this show takes hits at Barry's intelligence and importance in his own story. Season one and onward has him learning about his own powers through other characters mainly Eobard/Harrison, Caitlin, and or Cisco. In my experience with superhero media, most heros start alone therefore their own intelligence and instincts are guiding them, but Barry relies on the group a lot of the time. 

TPTP added Jessie and Wally with the same power as him, and they went farther by making them faster than Barry. Now they have created situations where they have to do dumb things so Jessie and Wally are not contributing to the action, where Barry is the only speedster needed. REALLY show Wally goes to visit Jessie at a time like this!!!! These instances don't shine Jessie and Wally in the greatest of lights, like a previous post mentioned they come across as second banana. The writers wouldn't have had to do this if they would have saved the introduction of Jessie and Wally has speedsters in season 5 or 6 when most shows need new blood to revive them. 

Edited May 7, 2017 by notagain
I know the difference between father and farther.

[Trini]

5 hours ago, Grace19 said:

something else I don't like about this show, they just don't want Barry to be great, why can't Barry do things himself? I was excited when I heard that Barry defeated Savitar and lucked him up in the speed force, imagine my surprise 2 episodes ago to discover, he didn't even do it, that Tracy was the one to figure it out. this Barry have never built anything since season one, how are we to buy he will build Gideon and the Savitar suit in the future?

Barry did build noise dampening earbuds to fight against Silver Banshee ... on Supergirl ... when he was away from STAR Labs.
 

18 minutes ago, notagain said:

When Gideon was introduced in season one there was no evidence Barry had the intelligence or interest in computers to even suggest that he could create Gideon. That's no knock on Barry from me, I love the guy, but the way TPTB has structured this show takes hits at Barry's intelligence and importance in his own story. Season one and onward has him learning about his own powers through other characters mainly Eobard/Harrison, Caitlin, and or Cisco. In my experience with superhero media, most heros start alone therefore their own intelligence and instincts are guiding them, but Barry relies on the group a lot of the time.

Yep. They structured the show based on the team formula that was successful with Arrow; but now his team is much bigger and more powerful. I'm not opposed to the Flash having a team, but it does require that they have to do stuff -- stuff that Barry could be doing.

It's another reason why they need to restructure the show going forward.

[GHScorpiosRule]

11 minutes ago, Trini said:

Barry did build noise dampening earbuds to fight against Silver Banshee ... on Supergirl ... when he was away from STAR Labs.
 

Yep. They structured the show based on the team formula that was successful with Arrow; but now his team is much bigger and more powerful. I'm not opposed to the Flash having a team, but it does require that they have to do stuff -- stuff that Barry could be doing.

It's another reason why they need to restructure the show going forward.

Not only that, but in his introduction on Arrow, he showed his Science Smarts, as well as suggesting what kind of material Oliver should use for his arrows to get a better effect. And made that mask for Oliver; saved Oliver from dying...

[legaleagle53]

1 hour ago, Trini said:

Barry did build noise dampening earbuds to fight against Silver Banshee ... on Supergirl ... when he was away from STAR Labs.

True.  He also taught the National City Police Department how to lock up metahumans in such a way that their powers would be neutralized.  Not even Supergirl knew how to do that.

[johntfs]

I'd suspect that's where Star Labs gets its money - from licensing/installing that capability in various prison around the country/world.

[wilnil]

3 hours ago, Trini said:

Barry did build noise dampening earbuds to fight against Silver Banshee ... on Supergirl ... when he was away from STAR Labs.

 

3 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Not only that, but in his introduction on Arrow, he showed his Science Smarts, as well as suggesting what kind of material Oliver should use for his arrows to get a better effect. And made that mask for Oliver; saved Oliver from dying...

 

2 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

True.  He also taught the National City Police Department how to lock up metahumans in such a way that their powers would be neutralized.  Not even Supergirl knew how to do that.

By now, we have to assume the existence of a hidden alien species (the "Repressers"?) that has put stealth satellites around every world in the DC TV Universe. These satellites beam a ray down on every city that a hero calls home, and the ray's effect is to lessen that particular hero's powers and intelligence. The rays aimed at Earth-1's Central City only affect the Flash, Kid Flash and Vibe (remember, Caitlin-as-Killer-Frost is a villain, not a hero); the rays pouring down on Earth-38's National City affect Supergirl, the Martian Manhunter, Guardian et al.; and so on.

 

So the only way for a hero to use her/his full potential is to go to another city or a parallel universe where they can provide assistance to that place's local hero (and come off looking more competent than the local into the bargain).

 

I'm kidding, of course, but think how many of the plotlines this would explain!

[Chyromaniac]

On 5/3/2017 at 1:57 PM, sarthaz said:

Joe and Iris have no business being at Flash HQ, because they're basically useless at this point.

I think it's Berlanti who hates the idea of "secret identities" on these shows - so as a result, all the main cast know who The Flash, Supergirl, etc... are, practically from day one.  That's good and all - but it does have the effect of wrapping everyone into the superhero teams, whether they actually serve a purpose there or not.  So yeah- you get characters like Joe and Iris (and HR and Julian...) just hanging out at Star Labs all day.   It's also why James Olsen has spent more time screwing around as Guardian this year than actually doing his job.  Personally, I liked it better in Season 1 when Iris didn't know about Barry - it meant that they had to actually write stuff for her character to do, instead of just plop her into the background.

 

On 5/3/2017 at 3:21 PM, doram said:

CWTV didn't worry about teenage girls seeing men like Damon Salvatore and Klaus Mikaelson as #relationshipgoals but suddenly we're supposed to believe that they're clutching their pearls at kisses that last longer than 0.5 seconds?

Well that's the thing - they assume that it actually is teenage girls tuning into Vampire Diaries.  With the DC shows - particularly The Flash - their idea of "family audience" seems to be grade school boys.  Personally, I feel that the idea that superheroes are a boy thing is complete BS - same with the assumption that boys can't handle romantic elements in these shows.  However, that does seem to be the accepted wisdom, at least at this network.

[Trini]

1 hour ago, Chyromaniac said:

I think it's Berlanti who hates the idea of "secret identities" on these shows - so as a result, all the main cast know who The Flash, Supergirl, etc... are, practically from day one.  That's good and all - but it does have the effect of wrapping everyone into the superhero teams, whether they actually serve a purpose there or not.  So yeah- you get characters like Joe and Iris (and HR and Julian...) just hanging out at Star Labs all day.   It's also why James Olsen has spent more time screwing around as Guardian this year than actually doing his job.  Personally, I liked it better in Season 1 when Iris didn't know about Barry - it meant that they had to actually write stuff for her character to do, instead of just plop her into the background.

They can still have everyone know and not have all these group meetings at STAR Labs. Maybe it's a budget issue? A lot of the time they seem to want to put as many actors/characters in one location/set as they can.

ETA: Joe and Julian can be mainly at CCPD; Iris at CCPN and Jitters; Cisco and Caitlin at STAR Labs, for example.

Edited May 8, 2017 by Trini

[Trini]

Can't Jitters be a location where she meets up with her sources, etc.? Also I like the set.

[legaleagle53]

3 hours ago, doram said:

Why should Iris be at Jitters? She doesn't work there anymore and hasn't since halfway through season 1. Iris belongs on the streets, talking to people, meeting up with her sources, even more than she belongs behind a desk. Investigative reporting is a very dynamic role for a protagonist to have. One of the better Iris stories in season 2 was in "Fast Lane" when we saw her go undercover at the race track, then later at the office of the race creeper/mobster boss. Then there was "Magenta" when she went to the hospital to interview the abusive dad. We need more stories like that for Iris. 

That's true.  If Iris is supposed to be an investigative journalist like Lois Lane, then the last place she should be is stuck behind some desk. Like Lois, she should be out there doing undercover work, interviewing people, tracking down leads, and constantly researching her subjects.  We did see a bit of that earlier this season when Iris not only cornered her subject, but practically dared him to shoot her point-blank because she knew that that day wasn't her day to die.  That's the Iris we need to see -- OK, maybe not that reckless (although Lois could also be a tad too impulsive for her own good, which is what so frequently got her into trouble that only Superman could get her out of), but definitely more active and aggressive in actually doing her job than she currently is.

Edited May 8, 2017 by legaleagle53

[phoenics]

It baffles me why they can't write Iris doing more investigative journalism - Lois & Clark the tv show did this SO well.  It drove story in a really compelling way.  On the flash, they have the police driving investigation.  You'd think they'd do what they do in the Flash comics, which is having Iris and Barry teaming up to solve crimes together.  Instead, Team Flash took on that role and sadly even when Iris joined Team Flash, the writers seem incapable of bringing her journalism into the story.

This should be simple.  Daredevil did it better and Karen wasn't even a reporter.

Honestly I fear the fandom's racist reaction to Iris in S1 for breathing or doing much more than breathing made the writers gun shy because I loved her investigations using her blog.  Bring THAT Iris back.  I want to see her hunting down stories that dovetail with Flash villains.  It shouldn't be this hard!

Edited May 8, 2017 by phoenics

[sarthaz]

18 hours ago, Chyromaniac said:

I think it's Berlanti who hates the idea of "secret identities" on these shows - so as a result, all the main cast know who The Flash, Supergirl, etc... are, practically from day one.  That's good and all - but it does have the effect of wrapping everyone into the superhero teams, whether they actually serve a purpose there or not.  So yeah- you get characters like Joe and Iris (and HR and Julian...) just hanging out at Star Labs all day.   It's also why James Olsen has spent more time screwing around as Guardian this year than actually doing his job.  Personally, I liked it better in Season 1 when Iris didn't know about Barry - it meant that they had to actually write stuff for her character to do, instead of just plop her into the background.

HR "motivates".  And he's Kid Flash's coach.  Julian has all kinds of made-up skills the writers pull from their asses any given episode.  But Joe and Iris literally do nothing.

[sarthaz]

16 hours ago, doram said:

Why should Iris be at Jitters? She doesn't work there anymore and hasn't since halfway through season 1. Iris belongs on the streets, talking to people, meeting up with her sources, even more than she belongs behind a desk. Investigative reporting is a very dynamic role for a protagonist to have. One of the better Iris stories in season 2 was in "Fast Lane" when we saw her go undercover at the race track, then later at the office of the race creeper/mobster boss. Then there was "Magenta" when she went to the hospital to interview the abusive dad. We need more stories like that for Iris. 

I was just being dismissive of her character, not believing for a second that she's an actual journalist anymore.  If she were a real character, I'd be with you, but she exists only to be Barry's love interest/revenge motivator/MacGuffin, so I don't perceive her as real in any sense; ergo, she can serve coffee.  And I mean that in the most dismissive sense possible, because have you seen that pad Barry got for them?  He's clearly Biff'd the future and is wealthy beyond measure, so Iris doesn't need employment.  And she certainly isn't passionate about journalism or she would have done it more than once per season.  I just think she'd get bored sitting around Flash HQ doing nothing.  Serving coffee is just a nice way to get out of the house and interact with people, and I want that for her.

Edited May 8, 2017 by sarthaz

[phoenics]

I don't think the narrative supports the idea that Iris does "nothing", but they could definitely use her more - and easily.  Some examples of Iris doing this season revolve around her investigating that fire at the Italian restaurant, the gun runner, and she also dug up some research that helped team flash solve one of the cases in the early episodes this season.  Early on, she also caught Barry in a lie because she was just doing her job - and she forced him to come clean about Flashpoint.  The way she worked with Wally to track down that gun runner could easily be worked into the show a lot more.

I think it's a mistake to simply write the character off as "just a love interest", especially when seeing a black woman centered as a love interest almost NEVER happens (usually black women characters are invisible, expected to be the shoulder for the white characters to cry on - sometimes they put Iris in that box too - and almost NEVER have a love life.  Olivia Pope was the only one I remember on a mainstream show ever.  Before her, it was an actual wasteland.  I knew that if a black woman character was on a show, she wouldn't be a love interest and adored in that way or even shown to be lovable.  She'd be the strong black woman and that's it - no personal life - just work.  And I - as a black woman who lives a full life - HATED IT.  I hated seeing such partial and incomplete representations of myself onscreen.

So in that way, the character is a breakthrough character - but it would be awesome if they allowed her to have a PoV, and gave her story that felt relevant to the plot in a way other than only as Barry's love interest or Joe's daughter or Wally's sister.

There are characters that are unnecessary for the future of The Flash and Iris West is NOT one of them.  Without her, no future Flashes would exist and most of the Flash mythology would fall apart.  Is it really too much to ask of the writers to make her more integral using her career?  It's shocking that S1 was so much better at this (well, the first half) - I wonder if that's because Geoff Johns was still heavily involved.  Without him, several elements of this show have suffered.

[Trini]

The reveal has me thinking about the "Into the Speed Force" episode, and how the speed force could have given Barry a heads up about Savitar(/himself).

[phoenics]

45 minutes ago, Trini said:

The reveal has me thinking about the "Into the Speed Force" episode, and how the speed force could have given Barry a heads up about Savitar(/himself).

I wonder why it didn't?

I also think they should have revealed Barry as Savitar much, much earlier... it would have given many of these episodes so much more weight and gravitas.  It would have made Killer Frost's and even Caitlin's betrayals so much more impactful - as it is - if they get "Caitlin" back, she'll be forgiven and treated as if she didn't turn evil on all of them (this plot point is so stupid and is only there so Caitlin cannot be blamed for being "bad" even if her badness results in Iris' or someone else's death).  It would have been a much better reason for Iris and Barry to break up - Barry being terrified of hurting Iris or Iris needing time to think...  and they could have even used Iris investigating Savitar leading to them figuring out that Savitar was Future!TimeRemnant?Barry.  So much could have been different and better.

But noooo.

And now - we only have a few episodes left to get through some really deep emotional beats that the show is definitely going to skip over.  Iris will likely not even be afraid for herself - she's going to be comforting Barry - as though finding out that a future version of him wants her dead wouldn't completely destroy her and break her down emotionally.  She'll be the strong black woman and comfort Barry and have almost no regard for herself (and still have idiots on facebook and youtube calling her "annoying" - WTF?!).

**flips over a table**

[Grace19]

21 hours ago, sarthaz said:

I was just being dismissive of her character, not believing for a second that she's an actual journalist anymore.  If she were a real character, I'd be with you, but she exists only to be Barry's love interest/revenge motivator/MacGuffin, so I don't perceive her as real in any sense; ergo, she can serve coffee.  And I mean that in the most dismissive sense possible, because have you seen that pad Barry got for them?  He's clearly Biff'd the future and is wealthy beyond measure, so Iris doesn't need employment.  And she certainly isn't passionate about journalism or she would have done it more than once per season.  I just think she'd get bored sitting around Flash HQ doing nothing.  Serving coffee is just a nice way to get out of the house and interact with people, and I want that for her.

I guess since her presence in starlabs is so annoying, spending few minutes per episode serving coffee to random strangers beats few minutes of her investigating what is going on in Central city, that will be so much fun to watch.

[Grace19]

And Joe, Julian and Barry are not also passionate about their jobs since we hardly see them at it, and Caitlin and Cisco has no job or life since they just live at starlabs.

[sarthaz]

20 hours ago, phoenics said:

I think it's a mistake to simply write the character off as "just a love interest", especially when seeing a black woman centered as a love interest almost NEVER happens (usually black women characters are invisible, expected to be the shoulder for the white characters to cry on - sometimes they put Iris in that box too - and almost NEVER have a love life.  Olivia Pope was the only one I remember on a mainstream show ever.  Before her, it was an actual wasteland.  I knew that if a black woman character was on a show, she wouldn't be a love interest and adored in that way or even shown to be lovable.  She'd be the strong black woman and that's it - no personal life - just work.  And I - as a black woman who lives a full life - HATED IT.  I hated seeing such partial and incomplete representations of myself onscreen.

So in that way, the character is a breakthrough character - but it would be awesome if they allowed her to have a PoV, and gave her story that felt relevant to the plot in a way other than only as Barry's love interest or Joe's daughter or Wally's sister.

You make a valid point.  I'm pretty desensitized to race on television, so I don't know if I've thought of her as a "black woman" even once over the past 3 seasons.  Which is a good thing.  And while I've been critical of how terrible the show has been lately, it says something about their approach that I barely even notice the bridge-of-the-Enterprise multiculturalism they have loitering around Flash HQ.  That said, I grew up in the big city, and it would be naive to think my melting pot experience reflects the majority of America, particularly these days when hate and isolationism are more vocal and prominent than they've been in decades; so I take to heart your point about seeing a quality black woman on television with full dimension.  Sadly, it's still an issue in 2017, and I totally meant no offense.  My snarky comments are because I feel like they've wasted all her promise.  She was a fearless journalist with real personality (and a weird blindspot for blander-than-bland Eddie, the human equivalent of the BRAT diet).  Now, it's like she just sits around waiting to die, and it's made even more awkward that the one place she spends all her time waiting to die is the least useful place in the world for her to be.  I realize it's because it's easier on the budget to keep everyone at the same location and solve all problems with Cisco inventing (and manufacturing) a new Technobabble 3000 every week instead of crafting a story around clever police work and journalistic investigation, but still, it sucks.  I definitely don't find her annoying.  I find it annoying that they don't do anything with her besides threatening her to motivate Barry.  Apologies if I upset anyone with my posts on this topic.