Criminal Minds Analysis: Profile The Show

[smoker]

The name of the episode is escaping me right now, and I'm too lazy to look it up, but there is a scene where Hotch and Reid are talking to some murderous scum whom I believe is on death row. Reid is walking around the criminal, profiling like a boss (or as I like to call it "foreplay"), and Hotch slowly takes off his suit jacket and loosens his tie. This scene turns me on so much because apparently I am a trollop.

 

that scene is so hot... Hotch is sooo angry, his fist was looking for a face sooo bad, hahahaha

I've watched this episode rerun today, it was like tv-karma or somethig, and the best thing they didn't go for the easy/comercial thing, Reid saved the day using his brain and profiling, just like Gideon and Hotch taught him to do xD

and their chat in the car was amazing too!

Edited January 14, 2016 by smoker

[smoker]

Here's a random but fun challenge for this thread...If you had to pick just ONE:

 

Elle or Emily? 

Gideon or Rossi? 

Season 1 or Season 4? (These two are almost always the most popular, which is why I singled them out!) 

Season 2 or Season 3? 

Kate or Tara? 

Hotch/Hailey or Hotch/Beth? 

Reid's dynamic with Elle, Emily or JJ? 

Knowing the Unsub right away or more of a whondunit format? 

Unsubs you can sympathize with (due to circumstances, mental illness, background, etc.) or unrepentant psychopaths? 

Season premieres vs season finales overall? 

 

 

And, of course, it's always fun to read explanations of everyone's choices! And feel free to add your own "choose --- vs ---" items to this list :) 

 

Elle, I love early Emily, maybe if Elle had stayed longer the character would have changed like the others did but...

 

Gideon, I like early Rossi, he was a pain in the good sense and some of his scenes with Hotch are amazing, but Gideon was a better character in my opinion, and he had something of Will Graham, sadly they didn't give him someone like Hannibal to fight againts

 

Season 1, just the premiere is amazing, the energy, every character had something to make them unique. Moreover, this season made me love the show and I am a sucker for those seasons (there are a couple of exceptions, but that's for another post).

 

this one depends mostly on the time you ask me (as someone else has said before), nowadays I'm rewatching season 3 and I'm enjoying it a lot, so Season 3 is it.

 

Kate, but without family, maybe happily married, but that's it.

 

I can't stand Beth, just I can't. so Haley.

 

Reid and Elle hands down.

 

writing and time spent with the unsub weighs a lot, I don't care when they are well done, but I'm choosing the whondunit format.

 

Psychos. More interesting, it's ok something different once in a while, but pure evil is better, creepier and more realistic.

 

I'm using maths here, Premieres.

[normasm]

Calm down, dear qwerty. I and others do care and appreciate the word and screen time counts you and MCatry do. The last time you got upset you deleted your account, so please don't do that again.

 

Really examine why you do this. If it's because, as I think it is, you are putting statistics out there for people to see and make of what they will, this is wonderful. I do appreciate seeing numbers and stats, even though, as others have pointed out, quantity doesn't equal quality. Still, the ebb and flow over seasons is informative, and can be used with the info and opinion to construct an argument for one thing or another.

 

If, though, you simply do this to garner approval from one group or another (again, I don't think this is what you do), then when someone calls you down, you must crash. You set yourself up for disappointment.

 

Have the courage of your convictions: if you think these stats are interesting and people can find meaning in them, please keep posting them. I guarantee, there are many here who like to look at your numbers and think about what they may or may not mean. That said, vent when you must. If you don't post them any more, I'll miss them.

Edited January 25, 2016 by normasm

[normasm]

OK, knowing you have autism spectrum disorder helps me know what you're meaning, or at least know that I may need to ask what you're meaning. I still think that if you make a "painting that's really cool" and no one reacts positively, it's still a cool painting. I hope you know that. An interesting slant on this community is very much appreciated, by me, at least. I just don't want you thinking that those who don't agree with you are right; they're just different.

Please keep expressing yourself.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

I moved my reply here because it turned into a vent.  Quotes don't get added to the word counts.

 

Honestly I don't know why I bother counting because the only time people cared about the results was when they were done improperly, only showing Reid's word count through the seasons which showed that his words went down most seasons which I realised now basically just added lube to the circlejerk. Now that I count all the characters and do it properly by percentage, consistent parameters no one cares because it doesn't show Reid being treated unfairly. But no, now it's all about screen time and even if I went back and did screentime and the results showed the same things it would then be about something else, like quality. Which is fair, because it is about the quality. Less can equal more, or at least if they attempted that with Garcia it would be the case but if it was all about quality to begin with I don't see why anyone bothered to be interested because Reid getting less words through the seasons wouldn't mean anything because it's about quality not quantity. 

 

Edit: Just adding that, obviously, this is a vent that has no logic, probably contradicts itself and doesn't mean anything. 

 

Speaking as someone who can definitely go all "Argle Bargle!" in Reid's defense, I'll drop in my two cents and say that I find your statistics interesting and informative. Although I can sit down and write a two thousand word fanfic about Spencer with no problem, I don't have the concentration to focus on things like word count when it comes to dialogue on the actual show. If I don't respond to those posts, its just as much that I'm awed by your dedication as it is that I'm not sure if you're really looking for responses or not.

 

As a random side note, I must now steal "added lube to the circlejerk", because that is an amazing turn of phrase. :-D

[ReidFan]

I hope my post wasn't what set you off qwerty. I do appreciate that you've done those word counts. In fact, the first time I saw one of the posts with them, I thought HOLY CRAP what a lot of time and effort went into that!! so I'm sorry for never having thanked you for your efforts and saying so.

[Reghan]

I was going to do 5 I would keep and 5 I would drop but.....................everyone is going to hate my picks, so I won't haha. Although I gotta go with The Fight as my least favorite episode EVER UGH

[MMC]

Someone on another forum has been doing the actual screen time for the season so far. The team's screen time vs that of the Unsub's screen time. Not surprisingly the damn Unsubs are getting way more air time than they should be,but we certainly don't need a breakdown of the screen time for us to be able to realize that. Anyways this person has also done the screen time for the individual team members. Now so far Morgan has gotten the most screen time. And that is fine with me.Since sadly this is probably going to be his last season.But what doesn't set right with me is that Tara Lewis has gotten the second most screen time so far this season. Oh hell no that is simply inexcusable for a recurring character to be getting that damn much screen time. That is a sure fire way to turn the fandom against the character. I have already heard from people who had started out as fans of hers,but now are totally fed up with all the screen time she has been getting.

 

On a happier note Reid's screen time thus far can be rounded out to about 2 hours and ten minutes. He got 39 minutes alone in "Entropy" That means he is now only about 20 minutes short of matching his entire screen time for that of season ten,this in spite of the fact he missed 3 whole episodes.

[MMC]

Could you post a link to the thread? 

Sorry qwerty. But no I cannot due to the fact it is on a private forum.

[Phoenix Rising]

Hi Everyone.... I've never posted here before... But of course know of this forum's existence.... The private Forum MMC is speaking of is Mine... It's the Bullpen... And while I know many of you 'used' to post there and no longer do, I also, know many of you still 'read' the forum. Hense how MMC knew about the timing thread. So in the interest of the Criminal Minds Fandom I would like to share the hard work that Hatsuan did to compile this information...

 

Team Vs. Unsub by Episode

1101: Total 42:07 Team 31 min and Unsub 11 minutes.

1102: Total 42:45  Team 24 min and 18 min of unsub.

1103: Total 41.35  Team 27 min and Unsub’s Minutes: 14

1104: Total 41:40 Team 27 min and 14 min of unsub

1105: Total 40:05 Team 31 min and 9 minutes for unsub

1106: Total 41:13: Team 25 min with and about 16 min from unsub and pesky children of police.

1107: Total 42:53. Team 29 min. Unsub time 11 min. Joy and Unsub time: 2 min

1108: Total 39:50  Team: 22 min and 32 sec (3 and something with unsub). And 17 min of unsub.

1109: Total 42:40: Team 36 min and 6 minutes of the Unsub.

1110: Total 41:18: Team 20 min, 6 min alone the elderly couple and, 15 min of unsub.

1111: Total 42:49 Team 14 mins, Main Unsub = 26 min 39 sec Other Unsub/Guests 2 min 10 sec

1112: Total 39:49  Team 26 min  and 13 min 49 sec unsub

1113: Total 41:25  Team 19 min 51 sec  and 21 min 30 unsub.

1114: Total 41:32 Team 34 min 40 sec, Unsub 10 min 30 sec and girls 22 min.

 

INDIVIDUAL Screen Times

 

1101: The Job – Individual
Derek ….. 19 min
Rossi …… 13min 50 sec
Hotch …..13 min 15 sec
Reid ……. 12min 50 sec
Garcia …. 10 min 25 sec
Tara …….. 4min 55 sec
JJ …………. 55 sec

 

1102: The Witness – Individual
Reid…….. 13min and 25 sec
Tara…..… 12 min
Hotch…... 10 min and 30 sec
Derek…... 11min 50 sec
Rossi.…… 9min 45 sec
Garcia..…. 6 min

 

1103: Til Death Do Us Part – Individual
Derek …… 20 min
Tara …….. 17 min 45 sec
Hotch…… 13 min 45 sec
Reid …….. 12 min 15 sec
Rossi ……. 11 min
Garcia ……. 5 min 40 sec

 

1104: Outlaw – Individual
Morgan …….. 13 min
Rossi …………. 12 min 40 sec
Tara ………….. 10 min 40 sec
Reid ………….. 10 min
Garcia …………. 5 min 30 sec
Hotch …………. 5 min

 

1105: The Night Watch – Individual
Tara ……………. 19 min
Hotch …………. 16 min
Rossi…………… 13 min 35 sec
Reid …………… 12 min 30 sec
Morgan ……….. 8 min 30 sec
Garcia …………. 5 min 30 sec.

 

1106: Pariahville – Individual
Tara ……………… 19 min 20 sec
Morgan ………….. 11 min
Hotch ……………... 9 min 10 sec
Rossi ……………… 7 min 20 sec
Reid ………………. 7 min
Garcia ……………. 4 min 2 sec

 

1107: Target Rich – Individual
Rossi......... 18min 40 sec
JJ................ 11 min
Morgan....... 10 min 35 sec
Reid............. 9 min
Garcia.......... 8 min 15 sec
Hotch........... 6 min 2 sec

 

1108: Awake - individual:

JJ ........ 17 min,
Tara ..... 12 min,
Rossi .... 12 min
Derek.... 12 min
Hotch..... 8 min
Garcia.... 7 Min (3 min are her voice).

 

1109: Internal Affairs - Individual:
Hotch ....... 17 min
Rossi......... 11 min
JJ  ............. 10 min
Derek........ 10 min
Tara  .......... 9 min
Garcia......... 6 min.

 

1110: Future Perfect – Individual
Hotch ……..... 11 min
JJ …………… 11 min
Tara ………... 10 min
Rossi ……..… 10 min 20 sec
Morgan…....…. 6 min 30 sec
Garcia ……..… 6 min 35 sec

 

1111: Entropy – Individual
Spencer was on screen for approximately 39 of the 42 minute episode
Spencer Alone - 4min 10 secs
Spencer and Cat - 26 min 39 sec
Rest of Team, other unsubs, w/without spencer 12.20
(Note-this episode had cast on screen for secs at a time. So compiled totals rather then true individual totals)

 

1112: Drive – Individual
Rossi ......... 14min 50 sec
Tara .......... 12min 50sec
JJ ............ 12min 20sec
Morgan ........ 12min 15sec
Reid .......... 12min
Hotch ......... 11min 10 sec
Garcia ......... 6min 50 sec

 

1113: The Bond – Individual
Lewis...... 7 minutes
Morgan......5 minutes
Rossi.......5 minutes
Reid........3 minutes
Hotch.......3 minutes
JJ..........2 minutes 40 secs
Garcia .....1 minute

 

1114: Hostage – Individual

JJ.............20 minutes 20 sec
Rossi.......14 minutes 25 sec
Hotch.......14 minutes 20 sec
Reid.........12 minutes 30 sec
Morgan...... 9 minutes 10 sec
Garcia........ 3 minutes 20 sec

1115: A Badge and A Gun – Individual

1116: Derek – Individual

1117: The Sandman – Individual

1118: Beautiful Disaster – Individual

 

Total Screen Time of Cast thru Episode 11.13 in order of Most to least
Morgan - 152.10 minutes total
Rossi -    149.05 minutes total
Hotch -   145.00 minutes total
Reid -     142.50 minutes total
Tara -     135.10 minutes total
JJ -          87.20 minutes total
Garcia -   75.40 minutes total

Edited February 13, 2016 by Phoenix Rising

[thewhiteowl]

Thanks and welcome, Phoenix Rising.

[Phoenix Rising]

Updated the Time post with Team times for Episode 11.14

[Phoenix Rising]

Now Updated with individual times for episode and season.

[langway]

Rewatching the series in chronological order.

S5E6 "The Eyes Have It" -- Morgan gets shitty with Hotch because Hotch took the unsub down and "should have waited for backup", despite the fact that Hotch had the local cop with him. I mean, would you really wanna risk losing the unsub because the whole team wasn't there? That and he was attacking a victim. I guess Morgan was just pissed because it wasn't him that got him. Just seems like a dumb thing to be upset about given that he was so hellbent on solving the case.

[normasm]

Aw, man, I was sitting here thinking there was a new episode on tonight! Bummer!!!

[SSAHotchner]

Aw, man, I was sitting here thinking there was a new episode on tonight! Bummer!!!

I'm only a little bit disappointed. I'm so tired. I would only stay awake to watch it so I can chat with my online CM friends during the ep. This way, I can go to bed early and get a decent night's sleep (and maybe have Hotch dreams.)

[Guesswht]

Actually, ratings are keep getting better & better & better week after week.

Just sayin.

 

We can also say that ratings are up from how they were at the very end of s10 (10x22, 10x23 got the worst numbers ever.)

 

But, i have the feeling CM is soon going to lose millions of fans... Shemar will be missed :(

[Phoenix Rising]

I think people will be surprised that the ratings don't go down that much if Shemar is indeed the one leaving. Yes he and MGG appear to have a lot of followers on Social Media, however they aren't nearly the amount of show fans who don't post on Social Media...

 

The biggest problem with the ratings right now is that the 'core' group (25-54) keeps shrinking while the desired demo group doesn't increase equally. Hense the overall loss of viewers. While younger viewers might enjoy the soap opera like feel to some of the episodes and also might like the blood,guts and gore often shown that group are not steady loyal viewers as their age often dictates they won't be. Basically younger viewers (late teens early 20's) often have other things in their lives which would quickly take their interest somewhere else. In comparison viewers 25-54 (mostly upper 30's thru 54) want to see the cerebral aspects of the show. Those viewers more then not want to experience the suspense but not see the gore... (hope that makes sense).

[MMC]

I think people will be surprised that the ratings don't go down that much if Shemar is indeed the one leaving. Yes he and MGG appear to have a lot of followers on Social Media, however they aren't nearly the amount of show fans who don't post on Social Media...

 

The biggest problem with the ratings right now is that the 'core' group (25-54) keeps shrinking while the desired demo group doesn't increase equally. Hense the overall loss of viewers. While younger viewers might enjoy the soap opera like feel to some of the episodes and also might like the blood,guts and gore often shown that group are not steady loyal viewers as their age often dictates they won't be. Basically younger viewers (late teens early 20's) often have other things in their lives which would quickly take their interest somewhere else. In comparison viewers 25-54 (mostly upper 30's thru 54) want to see the cerebral aspects of the show. Those viewers more then not want to experience the suspense but not see the gore... (hope that makes sense).

I agree with this.The fact is part of that so called core group also happens to be part of that much coveted 18-49 demo. And it seems to me that the CBS/CM people seem only interested in trying to placate the younger half of the demo and more or less ignoring the more mature half of it.The fact is that CM use to beat SVU handily in both the demo and overall viewers,but no more since they are often neck and neck with each other with SVU sometimes even beating them,and now there is only about a 2 million difference in overall viewers between the 2 shows.One would hope that this would have been some kind of wake up call for the CBS/CM people. But hey I certainly wouldn't bet the farm on it.

[Phoenix Rising]

MMC,

 

You're absolutely right. CBS seems to think the younger viewers are the way to go. But sadly one just has to watch the drop in ratings to see that it's the older viewers who are leaving and the younger viewers not picking up the 'slack'...

One thing about CM and CBS though, when it comes to renewal they aren't competing against anyone but CBS shows. So SVU's numbers aren't a problem, as SVU rarely does well in the now coveted Live plus 7 day numbers. CM regularly comes in with very good L7 numbers often only coming in behind NCIS in CBS dramas.

Will CM get renewed, yes probably unless Thomas Gibson chooses not to continue with the show. But I do think that Season 12 will be the last.

[MMC]

MMC,

 

You're absolutely right. CBS seems to think the younger viewers are the way to go. But sadly one just has to watch the drop in ratings to see that it's the older viewers who are leaving and the younger viewers not picking up the 'slack'...

One thing about CM and CBS though, when it comes to renewal they aren't competing against anyone but CBS shows. So SVU's numbers aren't a problem, as SVU rarely does well in the now coveted Live plus 7 day numbers. CM regularly comes in with very good L7 numbers often only coming in behind NCIS in CBS dramas.

Will CM get renewed, yes probably unless Thomas Gibson chooses not to continue with the show. But I do think that Season 12 will be the last.

Yes I realize CM's true competition are the other dramas on CBS.But I remember last season it was named the number one rated drama on CBS.I doubt if it will be this season though.My guess is it will be #2 and I feel that more people now opting to watch SVU will have played a factor.And yes CM does very well in the L+7.Now while I do think CM probably could get still get renewed based on it's same day ratings alone, I also feel that it is a good thing for them as well as so many other shows that the networks don't put nearly as much importance on the L+SD ratings as the once did.What I have noticed about CM is that when in comes to the L+7 numbers it has consistantly been CBS'#1 drama in the demo.Now if that is the criteria that was used last time when CBS named CM their #1 rated drama perhaps it will be again.Unfortunately because it is still doing rather well in dvr viewing we probably won't be seeing any substantial change for the better when it comes to the writing of this show.

[Guesswht]

I was kinda answering to someone with my comment about the ratings, but the post (thank God) got deleted. It isn't just came out of nowhere.

Ratings aren't that bad... There was a more significant decline in the ratings last year. Last year they've lost 1.5-2M viewers at least .

(S9 had 11-12M viewers /week , during S10 these numbers went down to 9-10M)

S11 has 9M /week. Where's the huge decline in ratings that everyone talks about? demo is great as well.

 

MMC,

 

You're absolutely right. CBS seems to think the younger viewers are the way to go. But sadly one just has to watch the drop in ratings to see that it's the older viewers who are leaving and the younger viewers not picking up the 'slack'...

One thing about CM and CBS though, when it comes to renewal they aren't competing against anyone but CBS shows. So SVU's numbers aren't a problem, as SVU rarely does well in the now coveted Live plus 7 day numbers. CM regularly comes in with very good L7 numbers often only coming in behind NCIS in CBS dramas.

Will CM get renewed, yes probably unless Thomas Gibson chooses not to continue with the show. But I do think that Season 12 will be the last.

 

 

""CM regularly comes in with very good L7 numbers often only coming in behind NCIS in CBS dramas.""

Yes! L+7 numbers are amazing. Jim Clemente said on twitter that Live + 7 Day (DVR) ratings matter a lot so

-if we want a S12, we have to keep watching or DVR-ing.

I think we'll even get a S13 if ratings are staying the way they are now. Hopefully, CBS isn't stupid enough to cancel the show. I mean..if they cancel CM in order to put an entirely new show in its place they may get much worse ratings for that new show. CM has a steady and loyal fanbase, cancelling the show and losing this huge fanbase would be such a big mistake.

But, I'm not sure continuing the show for a long time after Shemar leaves is fair... he was a HUGE part of the CM family. He was there since day 1. Like him or not, losing Derek Morgan is a heartbreaking loss for the BAU team. (Remember when AJ & Paget got fired and JJ had to leave at the end of 6x02...? everyone was crying behind the scenes. Now it's different, because it was Shemar's choice to leave, but my point is:- they are very close)

Edited February 19, 2016 by Guesswht

[Danielg342]

The only ratings anyone really cares about are the live 18-49 ratings. Nothing else matters- it's just PR. The reason for this is that, live, you get people watching the advertisements, whereas with DVR and streaming you don't.

The 18-49 numbers were down earlier this season, but now they're back in the 2.0 range, which is considered “good”. Much of the lower ratings seem to have been related to JJ's and Reid's absence (and, it seems, Lewis' addition), so we'll see what happens if Morgan leaves.

[Phoenix Rising]

Les Moovnes said long ago that CM's renewal hung on if Thomas Gibson renewed. And I believe that holds true today..

 

The biggest obstacle in renewing for a S13 is that 'all' of the cast has to renegotiate after Season 12... While I'm sure Joe M, Kirsten, and even AJC would resign I have doubts that MGG would as he's been doing so many other projects and I have serious doubts that Thomas Gibson would. Thomas now has a new agent (Paragim) then he did before and over the last few years in interviews he's expressed a desire to do comedy again, do theater again and even branch out his directing and producing some of his own projects.

 

As a fan I bemoan when the team is underused each week in favor of the 'unsub' show. I can't imagine what or how the actor's might feel. Frankly I wouldn't want to stay where the writer's treated the star's as if they were the guest cast... 

 

 

[Droogie]

Les Moovnes said long ago that CM's renewal hung on if Thomas Gibson renewed. And I believe that holds true today..

I know that was true in maybe 2009, but I think if Thomas Gibson refused to sign for a S12, that they'd give it a wheezy go, as long as Joe Mantegna (for his supposed "star power") and very possibly AJC (for the Ninja Barbie contingent), re-signed. I wouldn't see it going past S12, though, if that were to happen. Let's keep in mind that they seriously considered killing off Hotch in S5.

Since it became the Unsub show, with Hotch reduced largely to saying "Wheels up in 30," it hasn't really been a Thomas Gibson vehicle.

[Danielg342]

I know the renewal for S9 hinged on re-signing Joe Mantegna and Thomas Gibson, but I'm not sure it'll hold for S13, should it get that far. Gibson will be 56 by then, and Mantegna will be 69, so I think CBS would think if both wanted to leave, they wouldn't stop them. Likely we'll know for the casting for S12 if The Eye is looking long term, because they'll likely try to snag someone younger to eventually replace Gibson and Mantegna, if not do so outright.

[MMC]

One has to wonder why Thomas Gibson doesn't seem to use the clout he has as one of CM's leading men.Now on the other hand I think Joe Mantegna does use his clout as CM's other leading man.And I believe it maybe one of the reasons Joe seems to fare somewhat better when it comes to focus/screen time for his character.

I also believe MGG could have a certain amount of clout due to his huge popularity,but for whatever reason he chooses not to.At least that is the way it seems to me.

I suppose it could be that both MGG and TG are perfectly happy with their screen time. IF that is the case,we should try to respect their choice,but it also sucks for those of us who are huge fans of their characters.

[ReidFan]

1. Unless he's been playing us, MGG has no intention whatsoever of leaving the show. He's said publicly, and on more than one occasion, that he's in for the duration (paraphrasing, 'he's up for 39 seasons, okay 40')  He has plenty of time off to indulge in the other projects he loves

2. His contract gave him the entire month of October off this year, something Erica Messer said she was only too happy to indulge because 'they want to keep him happy because he's such a good guy' (this was printed in an interview with her not so long ago, but naturally I can't find it now >:-(   TVGuide maybe?) Honestly, I think this is the only 'clout' he's wielded. And it gave us that string of really crappy Reidless episodes with the lame excuse for his absence. (which I still believe they could have avoided by shooting either prior his absence or immediately upon his return, a couple of phone call to Hotch/Rossi/whoever type scenes for later insertion. It can be done)

3. Even if I'm not (and I doubt the powers that be give a crap what I think I'm neither 18-49 or American), I'm pretty sure MGG is happy with the amount of screen time he's given. He's never mailed in a performance. I think the carrot of being given directing opportunities could be part and parcel of why he's okay with lesser screen time, which judging by the numbers PhoenixRising has given us, isn't really that much less than the others. I wonder if he'll get more with Shemar gone. (if he leaves......)

[normasm]

I hope all the veterans get more screen time with Shemar gone, and the lesser (to my mind) characters step back just a little (AT and KV). And that they don't add a 6th profiler!

 

I agree that MGG is happy with what he has, and may in future be taking time off in the middle of seasons to do serious projects, which, i guess, until he leaves CM, will have to pass muster with CBS, etc., to a certain extent.

Edited February 21, 2016 by normasm

[Droogie]

I hope all the veterans get more screen time with Shemar gone, and the lesser (to my mind) characters step back just a little (AT and KV). And that they don't add a 6th profiler!

 

I agree that MGG is happy with what he has, and may in future be taking time off in the middle of seasons to do serious projects, which, i guess, until he leaves CM, will have to pass muster with CBS, etc., to a certain extent.

From your lips to God's ears, Norm.

And maybe extended time off mid-season is what MGG needs to continue on with the show indefinitely. I for one won't complain.

[ReidFan]

:-) dunno how closely you guys follow MGG (I could be considered a cyber stalker <jk>) but the man loves autumn. fall. pumpkins. Halloween. This is why he specified October.

 

I just hope if the same thing occurs again next season, they plan better. Shoot the scenes with him before he goes away ferchrissakes! Don't make us sit through three crappy Reidless episodes again! 

[ForeverAlone]

Since the October break was likely negotiated with CBS in the spring when Matthew re-signed his contract, I imagine Erica must have known about this in advance. So that SHOULD mean the writers knew about it as well when they started breaking stories before the season ever started filming. It's not like Matthew's absence was sprung on them at the last minute. So if they had wanted to give a different explanation for Reid's absence (e.g. him being called away for a special assignment or project), they could have easily written that in. They just chose to go the route they went, maybe because they couldn't think of a better explanation for his absence, or they wanted to heap more pain upon Reid with his mother possibly developing dementia. 

Edited February 21, 2016 by ForeverAlone

[MMC]

Since the October break was likely negotiated with CBS in the spring when Matthew re-signed his contract, I imagine Erica must have known about this in advance. So that SHOULD mean the writers knew about it as well when they started breaking stories before the season ever started filming. It's not like Matthew's absence was sprung on them at the last minute. So if they had wanted to give a different explanation for Reid's absence (e.g. him being called away for a special assignment or project), they could have easily written that in. They just chose to go the route they went, maybe because they couldn't think of a better explanation for his absence, or they wanted to heap more pain upon Reid with his mother possibly developing dementia. 

That plus Messer was probably hoping to put to rest the idea that Reid's mother would be appearing anytime soon.Who knows maybe Messer got tired of having to put on some sort of pretense that they were trying to get Jane Lynch for the show.

[Snow Apple]

Although I've watched episodes throughout the years, I wasn't a regular viewer during the early years. Now that I'm catching up with reruns, I  now understand many fans negative (to put it kindly) opinion of Hailey. 

Edited March 1, 2016 by Snow Apple

[Droogie]

Although I've watched episodes throughout the years, I wasn't a regular viewer during the early years. Now that I'm catching up with reruns, I now understand many fans negative (to put it kindly) opinion of Hailey.

l

Yeah, I just don't know what happened to her. Very early on, she was quite supportive, bringing baby Jack to visit the BAU HQ, and at one point -- can't recall the deets and too lazy/tired to look them up -- she brought something to the office that had been delivered to the house that she thought was important.

I kind of think she was disappointed bc Hotch didn't continue his rise to the pinnacle of the FBI. I believe she saw his position as Unit Chief as a stepping stone to Section Chief and even Director at some point. I think she was quite happy as Mrs. Prosecutor and looked forward to becoming Mrs. FBI Big Shot. She didn't count on or foresee Hotch becoming devoted to his team and the work they did. So she ostensibly had an affair and became a shrill harpy.

I do think, though, that in her last minutes of life, she realized that what Hotch did was indeed important and that she did truly love him. Which is one reason I find "100" heartbreaking and amazing.

Edited March 2, 2016 by Droogie

[JMO]

Haley had an affair?  I missed that, somehow.

 

I've never understood the Haley hate.  I think the big thing was that, when she became a parent, Haley's priorities changed, and Hotch's didn't.  She put Jack and their identity as a family first, and Hotch continued to put his work first.  I thought it was particularly egregious when Hotch didn't even remember that Jack was having testing done for his unnamed 'condition'.  Haley wanted her husband to be the second parent in their family, and he couldn't, or wouldn't, find a way to do it.  

 

Then, he is forced to become the single parent, albeit with heavy backup from Jessica---and he pulls it off.  So, was he not able to prioritize Jack while Haley was alive?  Or did he not choose to?

[ReidFan]

wait. what?! Hailey had an affair? Did I miss an episode?

[Droogie]

Someone with a better memory than I have will surely know the season, and the episode.

There was a scene, where Haley's phone rings in her purse, and Hotch answers it, and the caller hangs up. Very pointed shot of the look on his face, and I (and a multitude of others) inferred that it was a lover, who disconnected the call when Hotch answered.

The implication was obviously that Hotch couldn't/wouldn't be there, so she found someone who could/would be.

The whole thing about Jack being tested for something and Hotch not showing up to the appointment or whatever -- something about phones? I felt at the time that Haley didn't try very hard to reach him. My sympathies were generally with Hotch with regard to their marital strife. Maybe it's because I'm the wife of a husband who is gone a lot. I guess maybe there is something else he could have done, but he does this and it's a part of him, so we deal with it.

[ForeverAlone]

While we don't know for sure that Haley had an affair, it was heavily implied in  season three "In Name and Blood" when Haley and Hotch were fighting and I believe the house phone rang and they didn't pick it up or Hotch picked it up and nobody said anything (it was one of the two), And then like a minute later, Haley's cell phone rang. It was never addressed or anything specifically, but it was just sort of left hanging. 

Edited March 2, 2016 by ForeverAlone

[smoker]

I think it was in episode 3.03

There was a weird phone call, it was to make us distrust Haley, although it was left unfinished

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Haley had an affair?  I missed that, somehow.

 

I've never understood the Haley hate.  I think the big thing was that, when she became a parent, Haley's priorities changed, and Hotch's didn't.  She put Jack and their identity as a family first, and Hotch continued to put his work first.  I thought it was particularly egregious when Hotch didn't even remember that Jack was having testing done for his unnamed 'condition'.  Haley wanted her husband to be the second parent in their family, and he couldn't, or wouldn't, find a way to do it.  

 

Then, he is forced to become the single parent, albeit with heavy backup from Jessica---and he pulls it off.  So, was he not able to prioritize Jack while Haley was alive?  Or did he not choose to?

 

Thing is, Haley's priorities changed almost right after Jack was born, and I don't think Hotch was necessarily ready for the total one-eighty. Up until the baby came along, she was fine with his work and the erratic hours it entailed, but their son's birth made her nearly immediately resentful of his dedication to his work, and IMO Aaron didn't expect things to change in such a hurry. When she brought infant Jack to the office and showed him off, there was no hint that Hotch being called away so often was about to become A Problem, but her getting snitty in Machismo (which was Gideon's fault anyway, since he could have, y'know, not called Hotch on his day off) is a portent of things to come.

Edited March 2, 2016 by Cobalt Stargazer

[JMO]

Thing is, Haley's priorities changed almost right after Jack was born, and I don't think Hotch was necessarily ready for the total one-eighty. Up until the baby came along, she was fine with his work and the erratic hours it entailed, but their son's birth made her nearly immediately resentful of his dedication to his work, and IMO Aaron didn't expect things to change in such a hurry. When she brought infant Jack to the office and showed him off, there was no hint that Hotch being called away so often was about to become A Problem, but her getting snitty in Machismo (which was Gideon's fault anyway, since he could have, y'know, not called Hotch on his day off) is a portent of things to come.

Exactly. Her priorities changed as soon as she became a parent. That's often what happens., because that's when the entire way you live your life changes. In this case, it changed much more for Haley than for Hotch.

Showing the new baby off to your husband's friends is fun. Being a single parent, responsible 24/7, is not. It's hard to know if Haley demonstrating her resentfulness was abrupt or not. We saw her too infrequently. We can only know when they decided to let us in on it.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Exactly. Her priorities changed as soon as she became a parent. That's often what happens., because that's when the entire way you live your life changes. In this case, it changed much more for Haley than for Hotch.

 

In relation to this, and I've probably said it before, I have never liked the TV trope where the spouse of a cop, doctor, lawyer suddenly wakes up one day and realizes the person they're married to is still doing the same job they did before they exchanged rings. In fairness to Haley, having a baby is a huge difference from not having a baby, but the balance between work and family was always a theme on the show in the "old days". In the episode where Max Ryan shows up, it's Elle who asks Hotch where they're heading home on the jet if he thought it was strange that all of them could just drop what they were doing and come into work on a Saturday night. Of course, at the time Aaron was the only one who had a significant other at home waiting, but that single and childless Elle would be the one to pose the question to the married father of a very young child, and the married father says he doesn't find ti odd at all that everyone would of course drop everything and come into work, that's a personality trait of his.

 

To defend Aaron, I don't think the writing should have had Haley just out of the blue decide that he should totally alter his job path because she was no longer happy with the status quo. She'd known him for long enough that she knew who she was marrying when they said "I do", and the trajectory of his career says he'd been involved with law enforcement for quite a while. If, as was posited in the early seasons, Hotch had become Bureau Director, would the issues that drove Haley away have still been a problem?

[smoker]

I love this subject, every time it's pulled out I enjoy discussing different angles of their relationship

 

 

 

In relation to this, and I've probably said it before, I have never liked the TV trope where the spouse of a cop, doctor, lawyer suddenly wakes up one day and realizes the person they're married to is still doing the same job they did before they exchanged rings. In fairness to Haley, having a baby is a huge difference from not having a baby, but the balance between work and family was always a theme on the show in the "old days". In the episode where Max Ryan shows up, it's Elle who asks Hotch where they're heading home on the jet if he thought it was strange that all of them could just drop what they were doing and come into work on a Saturday night. Of course, at the time Aaron was the only one who had a significant other at home waiting, but that single and childless Elle would be the one to pose the question to the married father of a very young child, and the married father says he doesn't find ti odd at all that everyone would of course drop everything and come into work, that's a personality trait of his.

 

To defend Aaron, I don't think the writing should have had Haley just out of the blue decide that he should totally alter his job path because she was no longer happy with the status quo. She'd known him for long enough that she knew who she was marrying when they said "I do", and the trajectory of his career says he'd been involved with law enforcement for quite a while. If, as was posited in the early seasons, Hotch had become Bureau Director, would the issues that drove Haley away have still been a problem?

 

I agree with your first statement, I dislike those situations, I would add the "children issue" to that argument, you know when a character wants children and the other one doesn't and everything is condescendence until the "I thought you would change your mind".

 

However, Haley didn't fall in love with an agent of the law, we don't know when they got married for sure, but they were a couple since their high school years so Haley knew Hotch wanted to be a lawyer and he is a workaholic, but as you have said he's been involved with law enforcement for long and it looked like that was behind their backs. My guess is he would have worked long hours no matter what, sooo they would have ended in the same way, but without the psycho.

 

to answer your question more properly, I think if Hotch had had another job or got a promotion, even if he had been a doctor or a prosecutor for the rest of his career, I think they wouldn't have made it. After knowing a bit more about her family I realized Haley wanted her parents marriage. And that's ok, don't get me wrong, but Hotchner isn't her father, they are good family men, but their nature is opposite. I think they would have had more time, everything would have seemed normal without all the travelling, but Hotch would have spent most of the day working and he would have missed a lot of things.

 

I agree about the necessity of a few more of scenes here or there to show both sides and balance the struggle to fix their marriage. Haley threw him (and all of us) an ultimatum and taking Jack with her felt like a low blow to punish him. Moreover, I like to think there was someone else, even if she wasn't sleeping with him yet, but someone who made her feel neglected by her husband and rethink the kind of family she wanted for her and Jack.

 

There is a scene where Hotch says how he tries to be perfect when he's at home because he's aware of the amount of time he's out (2x19). I don't think that's healthy for a relationship either. And I think as muchs as he was sad and angry Haley wanted a clean divorce (3x14), a part of him was relieved she stopped breaking his balls. I think he should have been better organized, he was lazy on that front because he rely too much on Haley (before and after the divorce) and I think Haley realized getting what she wanted only would bring more misery to their marriage.

 

well, there is a few more things, but after rambling so much I'm going to stop here xP
 

Edited March 2, 2016 by smoker

[tobeyoungagain]

 I don’t get the Haley hate either!  I think she was on point when she told Hotch that being an FBI profiler is what he does and know who he is (when he dramatically exclaimed that “It’s who I am”.  It’s a tough job, dangerous and she had no interest in raising Jack by herself.  All totally legit reasons.  In my eyes, Hotch was selfish and chose his career over his family. 
Also, his job brought danger to his family and got Haley killed and Jack almost harmed.  Not sure how he lives with that and STILL continue the job.  If that were me, I would be devastated with guilt and definitely quit the job.

Haley had an affair?  I missed that, somehow.

 

I've never understood the Haley hate.  I think the big thing was that, when she became a parent, Haley's priorities changed, and Hotch's didn't.  She put Jack and their identity as a family first, and Hotch continued to put his work first.  I thought it was particularly egregious when Hotch didn't even remember that Jack was having testing done for his unnamed 'condition'.  Haley wanted her husband to be the second parent in their family, and he couldn't, or wouldn't, find a way to do it.  

 

Then, he is forced to become the single parent, albeit with heavy backup from Jessica---and he pulls it off.  So, was he not able to prioritize Jack while Haley was alive?  Or did he not choose to?

[smoker]

 I don’t get the Haley hate either!  I think she was on point when she told Hotch that being an FBI profiler is what he does and know who he is (when he dramatically exclaimed that “It’s who I am”.  It’s a tough job, dangerous and she had no interest in raising Jack by herself.  All totally legit reasons.  In my eyes, Hotch was selfish and chose his career over his family. 

Also, his job brought danger to his family and got Haley killed and Jack almost harmed.  Not sure how he lives with that and STILL continue the job.  If that were me, I would be devastated with guilt and definitely quit the job.

 

I woun't say I hate her hahaha. I think they were in a point where being selfish was the one option left. Why should Hotch give up something he is so passionate about and why should Haley forget about her necessities and the lifestyle she thinks is better for a family? Loving each other made things sad and I think he should have done better with his schedule and she should have cutting him some slack. She seemed pretty happy being a 'stay at home mom' and I'm not saying that justifies taking crap, but I didn't see that was the case either.

 

If you think the way things were a century ago Hotch wouldn't have done anything wrong. Nowadays, there is this need of doing everything at the same time, have a job, being there for your children every second of the day and don't forget romance, family, friends... it's impossible! (at least you're JJ!). As Cobalt said "she was no longer happy with their status" and I am aware a newborn takes a lot of time and energy, but she didn't have to worry about anything else (like earning money to put food on the table and pay a rent), and after a few weeks you get used to the new dinamic. 

 

They grow up to be different persons, at least Hotch did, and even if they wanted the same thing, a family together, the way to live that life was not the same anymore. 

 

And I'm pointing my finger to writers here: it gets under my skin Haley didn't have a relationship after their divorce, it's unnatural she didn't look for the romance/company her husband didn't provide her, because if she loved him and she was going to be alone doing the same life... I just don't get it. That's when everything feels like a punishment, pushing Hotch out of Jack's life. I understand she felt miserable and she wanted him to feel miserable, tho, but they turnned her in someone without flaws (after her death), and I like Jessica most of the time, but telling Hotch his job destroyed his marriage was unfair. 

Edited March 3, 2016 by smoker

[BookWoman56]

 

In relation to this, and I've probably said it before, I have never liked the TV trope where the spouse of a cop, doctor, lawyer suddenly wakes up one day and realizes the person they're married to is still doing the same job they did before they exchanged rings. In fairness to Haley, having a baby is a huge difference from not having a baby, but the balance between work and family was always a theme on the show in the "old days". In the episode where Max Ryan shows up, it's Elle who asks Hotch where they're heading home on the jet if he thought it was strange that all of them could just drop what they were doing and come into work on a Saturday night. Of course, at the time Aaron was the only one who had a significant other at home waiting, but that single and childless Elle would be the one to pose the question to the married father of a very young child, and the married father says he doesn't find ti odd at all that everyone would of course drop everything and come into work, that's a personality trait of his.

 

To defend Aaron, I don't think the writing should have had Haley just out of the blue decide that he should totally alter his job path because she was no longer happy with the status quo. She'd known him for long enough that she knew who she was marrying when they said "I do", and the trajectory of his career says he'd been involved with law enforcement for quite a while. If, as was posited in the early seasons, Hotch had become Bureau Director, would the issues that drove Haley away have still been a problem?

I understand the dislike of the trope, but there's also the argument that it's easy when you are young and in love/infatuation to believe that you can tolerate and accept a way of living that years down the road, you realize you can no longer accept. With the Hotch/Haley marriage, there's a huge difference between marrying someone who plans on being a lawyer and someone who plans to be a profiler who is called away across country on a very regular basis. My take on the situation is that no, Haley did not sign up to be married to a profiler who made it increasingly clear that his job had a higher priority than she or Jack did. And while I obviously agree that what Hotch does is important, if he knew he was so committed to the job that he was going to be an absentee father, then why did he even bother to become a parent? Hotch's commitment to his job, although admirable in terms of the needs of society to catch serial killers, etc., meant that on a personal level, he was asking Haley to be both parents to Jack. So while it may have been unfair for Haley to want him to be less committed to his job, it was equally unfair for Hotch to expect Haley to be happy with their marriage and his lack of active parenting.

 

From my perspective, I saw the beginning of the end of their marriage in the episode when Haley shows up at the office with the package from an unsub that was delivered to their house. It was the first time in the show that the line was crossed with having a case actually transition from the office into their home. That package could just as easily have been a person who killed her or Jack, or both, and that would have been a harsh realization for her. It was no longer just Hotch putting himself in danger; the nature of his job meant that she and Jack were being put in danger. And while I know the show is removed from reality in that typically the families of profilers and other LEOs are not targets of unsubs, in the universe of the show, she had every reason to feel endangered because of Hotch's profession. Ultimately, of course, even though she divorced Hotch, she still was targeted and killed because of his profession. So I can't fault her for deciding that she wanted out of the marriage, and I don't really think it was a sudden change on her part so much as a gradual realization that the marriage she had envisioned with Hotch was nonexistent and he wasn't going to change, so if she wanted things to be different, she would have to effect a change. It still bugs me that after her death. all of a sudden Hotch is able to become much more actively involved as a parent. To me, the inevitable conclusion is that yes, he could have made Jack more of a priority before Haley's death but simply chose not to.

[smoker]

I understand the dislike of the trope, but there's also the argument that it's easy when you are young and in love/infatuation to believe that you can tolerate and accept a way of living that years down the road, you realize you can no longer accept. With the Hotch/Haley marriage, there's a huge difference between marrying someone who plans on being a lawyer and someone who plans to be a profiler who is called away across country on a very regular basis. My take on the situation is that no, Haley did not sign up to be married to a profiler who made it increasingly clear that his job had a higher priority than she or Jack did. And while I obviously agree that what Hotch does is important, if he knew he was so committed to the job that he was going to be an absentee father, then why did he even bother to become a parent? Hotch's commitment to his job, although admirable in terms of the needs of society to catch serial killers, etc., meant that on a personal level, he was asking Haley to be both parents to Jack. So while it may have been unfair for Haley to want him to be less committed to his job, it was equally unfair for Hotch to expect Haley to be happy with their marriage and his lack of active parenting.

 

From my perspective, I saw the beginning of the end of their marriage in the episode when Haley shows up at the office with the package from an unsub that was delivered to their house. It was the first time in the show that the line was crossed with having a case actually transition from the office into their home. That package could just as easily have been a person who killed her or Jack, or both, and that would have been a harsh realization for her. It was no longer just Hotch putting himself in danger; the nature of his job meant that she and Jack were being put in danger. And while I know the show is removed from reality in that typically the families of profilers and other LEOs are not targets of unsubs, in the universe of the show, she had every reason to feel endangered because of Hotch's profession. Ultimately, of course, even though she divorced Hotch, she still was targeted and killed because of his profession. So I can't fault her for deciding that she wanted out of the marriage, and I don't really think it was a sudden change on her part so much as a gradual realization that the marriage she had envisioned with Hotch was nonexistent and he wasn't going to change, so if she wanted things to be different, she would have to effect a change. It still bugs me that after her death. all of a sudden Hotch is able to become much more actively involved as a parent. To me, the inevitable conclusion is that yes, he could have made Jack more of a priority before Haley's death but simply chose not to.

interesting point of view, I disagree with some of your arguments, but I respect your point of view, of course.

however, I want to add something because I guess I'm biased after all. I think Hotch relied on Haley to care of their child, that made him took her for granted and he deserved being called off, but if you don't like someone's job you don't have children with them either, that works both ways, I think is disgusting she used him as sperm donor and then she decided he was toxic for her child. 

I agree about his involvement as a parent, he's done better, but I think it's because  he can focus only on Jack  and Jack's age, Jack is a young boy now, it would be interesting if he stopped admiring Hotch blindly and he questioned his father priorities. 

Edited March 3, 2016 by smoker

[ForeverAlone]

Eh...I can see Haley's side of the argument. Hotch consistently placed his job over his family. He was perfectly willing to let Haley walk out of his life rather than get a job within the FBI that allowed for better family time. What happened between them is certainly not uncommon in these type of career fields. 

[Danielg342]

I never did take a side between Haley and Hotch- I just saw it as two different people who made choices and suffered the consequences of those choices. I could totally buy Hotch not realizing the actual time commitment needed for his job- and not acquiescing to another position because "it's who he is"- while being totally understanding of where Haley was coming from with her desires and frustrations. Even though I think the storyline is uncreative- which is my bigger complaint about it- I will give credit where credit is due and that at least Hotch and Haley were written with a lot of nuance and depth where you could totally see two different human beings struggling with their realities. No one was right, no one was wrong, and Hotch beautifully wrestled with the demands of his job with the demands of parenting, feeling genuinely remorseful that he couldn't put his heart into both.

 

It was all wonderfully done, and it's the kind of writing that our current batch of CM writers could only dream of doing.