S12.E17: The British Invasion

[Wayward Son]

7 minutes ago, Katy M said:

The Amazon. 

 

Really, you don't think the Amazon, someone who plans to have her child kill her own father is anywhere in the same league with Ketch?  That's pretty bad.

It's been a while since I watched, so this is a question rather than a rebuttal; did Dean even know she was an amazon when they slept together? 

If not IMO sleeping unknowingly with someone who is dark is entirely different to knowingly sleeping with someone like that.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, Katy M said:

Really, you don't think the Amazon, someone who plans to have her child kill her own father is anywhere in the same league with Ketch?  That's pretty bad.

But he didn't know that she wasn't human & I bet if he did he wouldn't have slept with her. Mary knows full well how deplorable Ketch is.

Edited April 9, 2017 by DeeDee79

[catrox14]

46 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Good question. Other than his one night stands which we hear about but don't see and Cassie, Lisa, Anna & the Amazon I can't think of anyone else that would be in the same category as Ketch.

There is no one Dean has been with who is remotely close to being like Ketch. 

The more apt comparison is with Sam. He slept with demon knowing she was a demon. And IIRC, the demon blood drinking happened after the sex. I get that Sam was messed up after Dean died but this was still a demon and he still knew it. Even with Madison, he knew there was a good chance she was a werewolf but he went for it anyway. I don't know if Sam liked playing with fire or what, but maybe he got it from Mary.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

It's been a while since I watched, so this is a question rather than a rebuttal; did Dean even know she was an amazon when they slept together? 

If not IMO sleeping unknowingly with someone who is dark is entirely different to knowingly sleeping with someone like that.

No, he didn't. That's a world of difference IMO.

[Wayward Son]

Just now, DeeDee79 said:

No, he didn't. That's a world of difference IMO.

I thought that was the case, but I didn't want to post without being aware of the facts. Thanks @DeeDee79!

And I agree Deans lack of knowledge makes the two situations entirely different! I think @catrox14 is correct to say the more apt comparison is Ruby and Sam. 

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

I thought that was the case, but I didn't want to post without being aware of the facts. Thanks @DeeDee79!

You're quite welcome!

[RulerofallIsurvey]

5 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Mary knows full well how deplorable Ketch is.

No, I don't think she does.  Just like Sam and Dean didn't know until Mick killed the teen werewolf, I don't think Mary knows that Sketch likely had to kill one of his childhood best friends while still a child himself or that he cold-bloodedly shot Mick in the head.  I'm not excusing Mary for sleeping with Sketch.  I still think it's gross.  But it's not quite as big a contrast between her and Sketchy and Dean and the Amazon as some would like to make it either.  

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

But it's not quite as big a contrast between her and Sketchy and Dean and the Amazon as some would like to make it either.  

I respectfully disagree. The contrast is that Dean thought he was hooking up with a regular human woman. Mary may not know all of Ketch's dirt but if she's been working with him as Mick said then I'm willing to bet that she knows how bad he is.

Edited April 9, 2017 by DeeDee79

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, Katy M said:

The Amazon. 

 

Really, you don't think the Amazon, someone who plans to have her child kill her own father is anywhere in the same league with Ketch?  That's pretty bad.

This is an inapt comparison.

Dean literally had no idea who she was. He thought he was hooking up some random chick in a bar. It was at most a one night stand with a side dollop if she had been interested. The moment he pinged something was up with that baby, that was the end of it. He didn't try to go back for seconds once he knew something was way hinky with her and that kid.

Mary knows at least one really dubious thing about Ketch. That he condones using technology that essentially tortures a monster to death. I dunno, Mary might not want to believe there is more sketchy stuff about Ketch. Maybe she is just in denial or being willfully obtuse. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Something I was thinking about earlier: re the conversation a couple/few episodes ago about whether or not Dean was a functioning alcoholic.  Well, IMO, if you want to see what a real functioning alcoholic looks like (at least on this show - I know real life has many differences): look at Mick.  He drank Sam and Dean under the table.  He showed no (or too little to be noticeable) ill effects of a night of heavy drinking the next morning.  And he immediately went for more alcohol (he asked for the vodka to make a bloody mary) while Sam and Dean were drinking black coffee.  It seemed to me that this was not an unusual occurrence for him either.  I think after the school 'test' he probably started drinking and never stopped.  And yet he still managed to submit his report to HQ regularly.  

Edited April 9, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey
parentheses should be used in pairs.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Something I was thinking about earlier: re the conversation a couple/few episodes ago about whether or not Dean was a functioning alcoholic.  Well, IMO, if you want to see what a real functioning alcoholic looks like (at least on this show - I know real life has many differences): look at Mick.  He drank Sam and Dean under the table.  He showed no (or too little to be noticeable) ill effects of a night of heavy drinking the next morning.  And he immediately went for more alcohol (he asked for the vodka to make a bloody mary while Sam and Dean were drinking black coffee.  It seemed to me that this was not an unusual occurrence for him either.  I think after the school 'test' he probably started drinking and never stopped.  And yet he still managed to submit his report to HQ regularly.  

I was also surprised to see Dean looking so beat down after a night of drinking with Mick. That's some hardcore stamina!

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I was also surprised to see Dean looking so beat down after a night of drinking with Mick. That's some hardcore stamina!

Dean has been bested in drinking by the wrestlers and now Mick.  Poor guy.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Dean has been bested in drinking by the wrestlers and now Mick.  Poor guy.

True! I forgot about the Beyond the Mat hangover :)

[Myrelle]

He had to take on all the wrestlers, though. That's a little different. I think the Mick scenario was simply more character propping for Mick AKA Oh, look he drinks even more than Dean can and still gets his job done. Weird for sure, but then again, SPN writers. So...enough said.

[DittyDotDot]

6 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

He had to take on all the wrestlers, though. That's a little different. I think the Mick scenario was simply more character propping for Mick AKA Oh, look he drinks even more than Dean can and still gets his job done. Weird for sure, but then again, SPN writers. So...enough said.

Or, it could just show that Dean is in a good place and hasn't been drinking all that much lately in comparison to how Mick was struggling at the time. I mean, didn't he go to the bunker to get away from his nightmares?

[RulerofallIsurvey]

42 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I respectfully disagree. The contrast is that Dean thought he was hooking up with a regular human woman. Mary may not know all of Ketch's dirt but if she's been working with him as as Mick said that she was I'm willing to bet that she knows how bad he is.

1. Ketch is a regular human man.  No matter how much a psychopath he is, he is still 'just' human.  So, on that point: I don't see any difference between Dean believing he was hooking up with a human chick and Mary knowing she's hooking up with human Sketch.  

2.  What are you willing to bet?  Because I'm pretty sure Mary does not know exactly how bad he is.  Just because you work with someone, doesn't mean you know everything about them.  Jeffrey Dahmer's neighbors and co-workers apparently didn't know about him either.  

[RulerofallIsurvey]

11 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Oh, look he drinks even more than Dean can and still gets his job done.

I don't understand how this could be considered 'character propping'.  More like character assassination.  It doesn't make the character more admirable so much as pathetic - because drinking himself into oblivion every night is all that Mick had.  The only way he was able to get through the day was to start drinking early and keep on drinking.  

And what TripleD said.  

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

1. Ketch is a regular human man.  No matter how much a psychopath he is, he is still 'just' human.  So, on that point: I don't see any difference between Dean believing he was hooking up with a human chick and Mary knowing she's hooking up with human Sketch.  

2.  What are you willing to bet?  Because I'm pretty sure Mary does not know exactly how bad he is.  Just because you work with someone, doesn't mean you know everything about them.  Jeffrey Dahmer's neighbors and co-workers apparently didn't know about him either.  

Dean thought he was meeting with a regular woman he met at a bar. Mary knew that she was sleeping with a colleague that enjoys killing monsters. Are you stating that since Mary doesn't know his entire rap sheet from the beginning of his career with the BMOL that he's the same as a random bar hookup? No, he's not. My point being: Dean met an attractive woman and went home with her. Mary has hunted with this man who has also told her to cut ties with her sons and complimented her for her abilities as a killer. Not the same in my eyes. Agree to disagree.

[catrox14]

15 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

1. Ketch is a regular human man.  No matter how much a psychopath he is, he is still 'just' human.  So, on that point: I don't see any difference between Dean believing he was hooking up with a human chick and Mary knowing she's hooking up with human Sketch.  

2.  What are you willing to bet?  Because I'm pretty sure Mary does not know exactly how bad he is.  Just because you work with someone, doesn't mean you know everything about them.  Jeffrey Dahmer's neighbors and co-workers apparently didn't know about him either.  

I mentioned what Mary knows at minimum in my previous post. That should give her enough pause for thought. But tack on what she knows another member did to her baby Sammy, you'd think she would really take a step back and reconsider her life choices right now

[RulerofallIsurvey]

3 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Dean thought he was meeting with a regular woman he met at a bar. Mary knew that she was sleeping with a colleague that enjoys killing monsters. Are you stating that since Mary doesn't know his entire rap sheet from the beginning of his career with the BMOL that he's the same as a random bar hookup? No, he's not. My point being: Dean met an attractive woman and went home with her. Mary has hunted with this man who has also told her to cut ties with her sons and complimented her for her abilities as a killer. Not the same in my eyes. Agree to disagree.

I'm not saying that it is exactly the same as hooking up with a random human stranger in a bar, but by your logic, no one should ever want to have sex with Sam or Dean either, if they knew they were hunters ahead of time.   (Sam and Dean also enjoy killing monsters, in case you forgot.  Maybe they don't get the same amount of pleasure out of it that Sketch does, but they keep doing it, don't' they?)  Sketch encouraged her to cut ties with her sons for the same reasons Sam and Dean don't have long term girlfriends: because having those family/love connections leaves you vulnerable.  Complimenting her skills as a hunter?  Didn't the guys pretty much do that with Eileen this episode?  

Like I said, I'm not excusing Mary for borrowing sugar from Sketch.  But there is not that much difference in this situation and Dean and the Amazon as you want to make.

[DittyDotDot]

Isn't the whole point of Mary hooking up with Ketch to show how messed up Mary is right now? Just like Sam hooking up with Ruby showed how he was messed up in the head. And, when Dean hooking up with an Amazon unknowingly was because he wasn't in a good place mentally and didn't pause to take stock of the situation until after he hooked up with her. 

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Like I said, I'm not excusing Mary for borrowing sugar from Sketch.  But there is not that much difference in this situation and Dean and the Amazon as you want to make.

If a random human wanted to hook up with Sam and Dean and found out that they were hunters than yes I agree that they should steer clear. They lead dangerous lives and have done many things that would be seen as unforgivable. In the instance of Mary/Ketch vs. Dean/Amazon the difference is knowledge of the given situation. Dean had no knowledge that he was sleeping with a non-human; Mary had knowledge that she was laying with a sociopath. There is indeed a "difference in this situation and Dean and the Amazon that I want to make". Just because you have a different viewpoint does not mean that mine is without merit.

[catrox14]

Just now, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Like I said, I'm not excusing Mary for borrowing sugar from Sketch.  But there is not that much difference in this situation and Dean and the Amazon as you want to make.

I'm geniunely baffled at this idea. They are completely different. This is a false equivalency.

Mary has been spending quite a lot of time with these people for MONTHS now. She knows these people on some level. She's been out hunting with Ketch using the ray gun. She has a bunk in their HQ. She stole the Colt for them.

Dean had a literal one night stand with a woman he believed was a human and not a monster and got stuck with a monster baby for those few hours of sexual enjoyment.

These are not equivalent situations.

[Myrelle]

27 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I don't understand how this could be considered 'character propping'.  More like character assassination.  It doesn't make the character more admirable so much as pathetic - because drinking himself into oblivion every night is all that Mick had.  The only way he was able to get through the day was to start drinking early and keep on drinking.

Which is why I said that it was weird, but it's still how it felt like it played out to me.

36 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Or, it could just show that Dean is in a good place and hasn't been drinking all that much lately in comparison to how Mick was struggling at the time. I mean, didn't he go to the bunker to get away from his nightmares?

I think they were really going for "Look how awful the BMoL are. See what they did/do to kids." Even the Winchesters didn't have it this bad as kids. So a two-fold sort of thing to make sure that all the audience now knows(or remembers) that the Brits are one of the baddies this season AND to elicit more sympathy/goodwill for Mick for finally trying to buck the system. The whole Mick thing was very predictable, IMO. And I wasn't that invested in the character because everywhere they took him, I saw it coming a mile away.

I guess the same can/could be said for Ketch somewhat in that I think they're attempting to make him irredeemable because one of the Winchesters(probably Mary, IMO) is going to kill him, but the actor is doing a good job of keeping me guessing about that and even kind of hoping that he'll get away to return another day. And whether that happens or not is less important to me than the fact that the actor is at least attempting to give his character layers and some nuance even if those things aren't apparent or present within the actual script writing-kind of what JA has been doing on this show-and which has made me become far more intrigued with the story of Ketch than of Mick, at this point.

I still think that the writers are going to go the predictable route with him, mustache-twirling and all, but I can still admire the acting that's at least attempting to make it a little more interesting.

Edited April 9, 2017 by Myrelle

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I'm geniunely baffled at this idea. They are completely different. This is a false equivalency.

Mary has been spending quite a lot of time with these people for MONTHS now. She knows these people on some level. She's been out hunting with Ketch using the ray gun. She has a bunk in their HQ. She stole the Colt for them.

Dean had a literal one night stand with a woman he believed was a human and not a monster and got stuck with a monster baby for those few hours of sexual enjoyment.

I completely agree. Dean had no idea who he truly hooked up with. Mary has been working with this dude for months. She can`t be that stupid or blind not to have a general assessment of him now. Dean spend one afternoon with him and he could see the psycho-ness, it`s not like Ketch is trying to hide it. IMO it`s more like Mary at this point is as reprehensible in her own way so of course she`d bed a guy like this.   

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Isn't the whole point of Mary hooking up with Ketch to show how messed up Mary is right now? Just like Sam hooking up with Ruby showed how he was messed up in the head. And, when Dean hooking up with an Amazon unknowingly was because he wasn't in a good place mentally and didn't pause to take stock of the situation until after he hooked up with her. 

The difference is glaring here.  Mary and Sam have some knowledge of who they are sleeping with.

Dean had no such knowledge.

Dean fucked up by having a one night stand because he didn't consider that some chick who was making a pretty hard play for him, was the monster.

Mary and Sam respectively had some idea on some level of who they are dealing with.

The writers can tell different stories about different characters that may seem to be the same on the surface but are not when given a closer examination.

[DittyDotDot]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

The difference is glaring here.  Mary and Sam have some knowledge of who they are sleeping with.

Seriously? I wasn't making an argument for who is worse person because of who they screwed when they were screwed up.  IMO, The situations aren't supposed to be telling us who is a worse person, but showing us how messed up that person is right then that they got themselves into situations they normally wouldn't if their head was screwed on right at the time. 

At this point, I think this discussion should go to the bitch/jerk thread, myself.

[rue721]

36 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I don't understand how this could be considered 'character propping'.  More like character assassination.  It doesn't make the character more admirable so much as pathetic - because drinking himself into oblivion every night is all that Mick had.  The only way he was able to get through the day was to start drinking early and keep on drinking.  

And what TripleD said.  

I agree.

But I also think Mick being able to drink everyone under the table while remaining cool as a cucumber was also a joke about him being English.

21 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Isn't the whole point of Mary hooking up with Ketch to show how messed up Mary is right now? Just like Sam hooking up with Ruby showed how he was messed up in the head. And, when Dean hooking up with an Amazon unknowingly was because he wasn't in a good place mentally and didn't pause to take stock of the situation until after he hooked up with her. 

Yeah, I think that it was clear the Mary/Ketch hookup wasn't a *happy* thing. I think she hooked up with him *because* she knows he's shitty. She's sure she won't catch feelings for him. I think it was a bad idea on Mary's part, but I think she was hooking up with him *because* it's a bad idea and she's feeling both vulnerable and self-destructive.

Also, I think it shows that his slow-and-steady attempt to get under Mary's skin is working, which is worrying.

But to be honest, I wonder more about Ketch than Mary in that scenario. Does Ketch sleep with all his field agents/operatives? Does Ketch have an actual crush on her? How is he going to turn now that she's slept with him? She rejected him pretty hard, and his ex (Toni) called him a psychopath, so I'm kind of worried about what he's feeling and how he's going to deal with Mary now that he's gotten her in bed.

[companionenvy]

I agree Dean hooking up with the Amazon isn't at all equivalent to Mary/Ketch.

But, I also don't think that Mary is as awful/irredeemable as a lot of you seem to, and sleeping with Ketch is a case in point. To me, that was the equivalent of Buffy having sex with Spike in season 6 - and, given that Buffy, like Mary, had just returned from heaven at that point, I wouldn't be shocked if someone on the writing team had that parallel in mind either. It is self-destructive and messed up, but it doesn't make her a terrible person. Just like the fact that she went on a least one hunt when Dean was a kid doesn't make her an awful wife and mother, or mean that she was never sincere in wanting to leave hunting.

Do I blame Mary for withdrawing from her sons? Hell yeah. It is wrong, and cowardly, and she needs to make up for it. But that's a far cry from thinking she's as much of a sociopath as Ketch, or that she would have gleefully gunned down Magda and the werewolf girl without a thought. Even though she has hunted with Ketch for a while, we don't know how much she knows about the BMOL; they may well be showing her a carefully curated version of their activities. And frankly, within the moral calculus of the show, if the worst Mary is seeing of the BMOL is them killing shifters and vampires in an eerily efficient and not ASPCA-approved fashion, she hasn't, IMO, gone over the moral event horizon. She must know enough to recognize that Ketch is a brutal guy, but she doesn't necessarily know the full extent of what he or the BMOL is doing. The fact is, there are plenty of cases in which the goals of the BMOL align perfectly well with the goals of hunters. That's why I wasn't upset with Sam for agreeing to work with them in a limited capacity -- a case is a case no matter who is giving you the intel, and if you're going to be taking out a vamp nest anyway, why not use more sophisticated (which does not necessarily mean more tortuous) weaponry? It isn't as if Sam and Dean are usually making their monster kills via lethal injection while singing their victims soothingly to sleep. The important thing is that they balked the second the BMOL asked them to do something outside their moral code.

My reading of what Ketch is doing to Mary is that he's successfully using on her a version of the same ploy he was making with Dean - but with some subtle differences (and, you know, added sugar). I think Ketch actually believed that Dean was someone he could appeal to violent killer to violent killer. I'm not sure he thinks that is true of Mary, but he wants to convince her that being a single-minded hunter is her "real" self and, since Mary doesn't, I think, have as stable a sense of self as Dean does, it is working. And I don't think Mary is happy about that, any more than Dean is happy when he occasionally starts thinking of himself as nothing more than a killer. If anything, she's got a good dose of self-loathing (sound familiar)? Hence, doing something as messed up as sleeping with Ketch. 

ETA: Or, what rue said, a lot more succinctly, just before I posted.

Edited April 9, 2017 by companionenvy

[catrox14]

25 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Seriously? I wasn't making an argument for who is worse person because of who they screwed when they were screwed up.  IMO, The situations aren't supposed to be telling us who is a worse person, but showing us how messed up that person is right then that they got themselves into situations they normally wouldn't if their head was screwed on right at the time. 

At this point, I think this discussion should go to the bitch/jerk thread, myself.

IMO, this is all about Mary and the writers haven't even considered Sam nor Dean's past dalliances. I think they want to give Mary this silly affair with Ketch to be 'edgy'. 

Edited April 9, 2017 by catrox14

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Do I blame Mary for withdrawing from her sons? Hell yeah. It is wrong, and cowardly, and she needs to make up for it. But that's a far cry from thinking she's as much of a sociopath as Ketch,

I think she is canonically a better person than Ketch, just for me a much shittier character in this show. Which means I don`t even know who to pity in this hook-up scenario.  

[Katy M]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

This is an inapt comparison.

Dean literally had no idea who she was. He thought he was hooking up some random chick in a bar. It was at most a one night stand with a side dollop if she had been interested. The moment he pinged something was up with that baby, that was the end of it. He didn't try to go back for seconds once he knew something was way hinky with her and that kid.

My original post was how Dean doesn't take the time to get to know women before having sex with them, so he could be having sex with anyone.  There's a certain due diligence responsibility in anything.  Ignorance generally isn't an excuse if you could know better.  If you're not hopping into bed with people you just met, you would know who you're getting into bed with.

Edited April 9, 2017 by Katy M
Incomplete thoughts.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think she is canonically a better person than Ketch, just for me a much shittier character in this show. Which means I don`t even know who to pity in this hook-up scenario.  

I just can't like Mary or Ketch at all. But I don't like them any less than I did before. This is just the nail in the coffin for me as characters. Mary was already on thin ice with me, and this is just one step more.

I, as a viewer,  don't actually give a shit WHO Mary sleeps with because she is such a nothing character to me now. I care about how she is with her grown children so once she blew them off and continues to do so, it really wouldn't matter to me if she slept with Lucifer at this point. Like she is a just a cliched trope now. Ketch is played by an interesting actor but the actor can't change the character as a villain.

[catrox14]

Just now, Katy M said:

My original post was how Dean doesn't take the time to get to know women before having sex with them, so he could be having sex with anyone.

 

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

The Amazon. 

 

Really, you don't think the Amazon, someone who plans to have her child kill her own father is anywhere in the same league with Ketch?  That's pretty bad.

I was responding to ^^^^^^ this comment.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

If you're not hopping into bed with people you just met, you would know who you're getting into bed with.

Personally, I don`t want the show to start shaming casual hook-ups and one-night-stands. They are not my cup of tea but I`m fine with people having them and normally a big part of that is you only cursory know the person you hook up with.  

Quote

so, it really wouldn't matter to me if she slept with Lucifer at this point.

Yup, that`s where I am too. 

Quote

Ketch is played by an interesting actor but the actor can't change the character as a villain.

I don`t even think his role as a villain is a problem. At least with him, the show never really sugarcoated it much.

Though I had to laugh how apparently he alone has been tasked with obliterating every American hunter. Who is he, evil Batman?

Edited April 9, 2017 by Aeryn13

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, Katy M said:

My original post was how Dean doesn't take the time to get to know women before having sex with them, so he could be having sex with anyone.  There's a certain due diligence responsibility in anything.  Ignorance generally isn't an excuse if you could know better.  If you're not hopping into bed with people you just met, you would know who you're getting into bed with.

I didn't see your edit when I responded.

Before this gets twisted, I'm not shaming anyone for having sex with a stranger. This is what human beings do. I'm not shaming Mary nor Ketch for having sex either. I am shaming them for having sex with each other. Because of who they are and who they are connected to within the story.

However, even if you think you know who you are sleeping with you don't always know.

For instance, let's say Dean had some way of testing the Amazon to know if she was a monster and she was able to fool the test, kind of like the shapeshifter in Ask Jeeves. Dean would believe she was human and suitable for partnering with for an evening. He could have dated the Amazon for a month or 6 months before deciding to have sex with her and he still would never have known she was an Amazon.

So it's not a matter of being promiscuous at all. IMO

[catrox14]

55 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

But that's a far cry from thinking she's as much of a sociopath as Ketch, or that she would have gleefully gunned down Magda and the werewolf girl without a thought. Even though she has hunted with Ketch for a while, we don't know how much she knows about the BMOL; they may well be showing her a carefully curated version of their activitie

I don't remember reading that anyone here actually said this about Mary.

[MysteryGuest]

I will admit that part of my misgivings about Mary sleeping with Ketch is because of what I know about him, not necessarily what she knows about him.  She knows he likes to hunt and enjoys the kill a bit, but she seems to, as  well.  She knows he may or may not have killed that hunter, but I'm guessing that's not a deal breaker.  He was working for the Alpha Vamp and allowing humans to be killed, so she probably feels he got what was coming to him.

She's been told that the person who tortured her son was a rogue operative of the BMOL, and she's been given no real reason since then to suspect that wasn't true.  Both Ketch and Mick have come to the aid of Sam and Dean a few times now.  So while she may not completely trust them, I'm guessing she doesn't have a clue about what they're really like. Ketch has been chatty with her and has at least seemed to show an interest in her as a hunter.  He praises her a lot, and they're together all the time.  Their sleeping together was probably inevitable.  

I still think Sam and Dean would have an issue with it, mainly because she's their mother and because they're suspicious of Ketch.  But I guess I don't really see it as a huge character flaw on her part.  I have to keep reminding myself that she doesn't know what we know.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

But I guess I don't really see it as a huge character flaw on her part.  I have to keep reminding myself that she doesn't know what we know.

For me, even if she doesn't know ALL the things we know, I think what we know she knows, should be enough for her to say...."eh...maybe not". 

[rue721]

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

For me, even if she doesn't know ALL the things we know, I think what we know she knows, should be enough for her to say...."eh...maybe not". 

Not if part of the point was to degrade herself

[MysteryGuest]

I can't believe I'm defending the liaison, because I personally find their hooking up unpleasant, but I guess I can understand it.  She's basically alone.  She doesn't have a good relationship with her sons right now.  She has no friends, and certainly no time or inclination to date.  She spends days on the road with Ketch, and they've been together for months now.  He isn't without a certain smarmy charm, and if I didn't know he was a cold-blooded, murdering, son of a bitch, I can see how it could happen.  I don't think she was all that thrilled with herself afterwards, either, but maybe it was just a matter of blowing off some steam, or just the need for some human contact.  I suppose I'll cut her some slack.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

She's basically alone.  She doesn't have a good relationship with her sons right now.

She could have a relationship with her sons but so far we've been shown that she's still keeping them at arms length. After Sam & Dean agreed to give the BMOL a chance I had hoped that it would bring about an actual relationship between them but it seems like it hasn't.

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Not if part of the point was to degrade herself

 

That's if one thinks she is filled with this need to degrade herself. I didn't think she looked particularly grossed out at her choice to sleep with Ketch. She smiled IMO rather sincerely and happily when Ketch more or less validated her choice to try and "have it all".  I think she is doing exactly what she wants to do. II don't think Sam Smith is playing Mary with any kind of internal self loathing. YMMV

Maybe we'll find out she's running a long game of some kind and has become the "femme fatale" for Ketch

[catrox14]

19 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

She's basically alone.  She doesn't have a good relationship with her sons right now.

But this is HER choice. She is choosing to be away from them.

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

But this is HER choice. She is choosing to be away from them.

Of course it's her choice. That's what depressed people do, they isolate themselves from the people who truly care about them and take up with people who encourage them to self-harm; like drinking, drugs and sex with unsavory partners. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

Mary had knowledge that she was laying with a sociopath.

I disagree that Mary knows she was borrowing sugar from a sociopath.  How would she know this?  Has she had access to his confidential records and psych evaluation?  As far as she knows, he's a hunter - a little different from Sam and Dean, sure, but maybe not so different from her own father?  (And before anyone jumps on that - sure, viewers might think of Samuel Campbell as a sociopath after S6, but Mary wouldn't know about that side of him, would she?)

For the record, I NEVER said that Mary and Sketch were equivalent to Dean and the Amazon.  I just said (sorry if I didn't make it clear that it was ONLY MY OPINION) that it wasn't quite as different as some would like to make it.  (i.e. IMO, It isn't as black and white as all that.)  And just because you have a different viewpoint, does not mean mine is without merit either.  

1 hour ago, companionenvy said:

Even though she has hunted with Ketch for a while, we don't know how much she knows about the BMOL; they may well be showing her a carefully curated version of their activities.

Exactly.

Edited April 9, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Of course it's her choice. That's what depressed people do, they isolate themselves from the people who truly care about them and take up with people who encourage them to self-harm; like drinking, drugs and sex with unsavory partners. 

I know how depression and grief works. Been there done that, will probably be there again one day. Depression is not the same for everyone.

That said, IMO, I do not see that in the narrative for Mary. IMO, they have been selling that Mary is 'a strong, badass woman who is making choices to show that she is NOT JUST A MOM."  That she is out there doing it for herself. Making her own choices. That her children are wrong for wanting a closer relationship.

For me it makes sense that she is trying to do that given she just fell out of the late 70s early 80s and she may have that mindsight that she is gonna do this hunting thing because YAY GIRLPOWER more so than "I am lonely and depressed but I'm not going to call my grown sons and try to connect with them ever."

IMO, if it was that clear we wouldn't be having these debates about what is going on with Mary and that is the fault of the writers for NOT giving us any insight into Mary's headspace.And unfortunately, IMO, Sam Smith is not a strong enough actor to communicate some underlying depression IF that is their intention.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

And just because you have a different viewpoint, does not mean mine is without merit either.  

Which is why I stated in my post that we could agree to disagree. Your opinion is just as valid as mine; they don't have to be in alignment.

3 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I disagree that Mary knows she was borrowing sugar from a sociopath.

Which goes back to my statement that we can agree to disagree.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

4 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

 Your opinion is just as valid as mine; they don't have to be in alignment.

Well, of course not.  What fun would that be? ;)

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Well, of course not.  What fun would that be? ;)

None whatsoever! :)