All Episodes Talk: If Three is a Pattern...

[FurryFury]

I can't say I'm a big Stiles fan (he's okay, but not my favorite character), and the Nogitsune arc was plenty interesting for other characters because they were affected by his actions and the fact of his transformation. There are still lots of things they could have done much, much better (Allison's exit, first and foremost), but I never got the feeling the show was all about Stiles.

 

Also, unlike, say, Liam's sudden prominence in s4, Stiles had actually earned his focus and screen-time.

[Gwen-Stacys]

I think Teen wolf suffers from "being too big for it's britches" syndrome. But I don't think it's dropped ratings have so much to do with their crappy story telling so much as it's airing during the summer in the same spot as Under the Dome (which is also a crap show....the book was sooo much better, but I digress.) But it's "big" viewer start to petering out somewhere along the line, to a high but still not as high as the premier rating trend is the same as all seasons of TW (minus season 1). The difference is that season 3b (and even 3A) started out higher than season 4....a big part of that had to do with it airing during the winter season with no other big genre competition in the same time slot. I know a lot of people irl that started watching Teen Wolf at 3b...because there was nothing else on (and the whole polar vortex thing hand more people watching TV anyway, I think. Look at both The Walking Dead and Game of Thrones monster ratings last season: TWD had something like 13+ mil and GOT had similar numbers.) My point is, yea the ratings drops will have them scrambling a bit, but I doubt they'll be at "clutch the pearls" status, as they still have pretty decent ratings for a non-reality MTV broadcast cable show. And it still has better ratings than some of the CW shows.

 

But yes, JD's penchant for procedurals (he did write for cold case, yes?) is really showing this year.

[FurryFury]

I doubt the audiences for TW and Under The Dome overlap much. The season's just crap.

[blueray]

My biggest complaint about the show is that they are trying to hard to be serial (they aren't the only show to fail at this) but seriously TW it's okay to have a filler episode that isn't about the "main" storyline. Show the main characters (who are in high school) actually deal with teen stuff such as homework, licross games and just hanging out.  It seems like every scene is in the middle of a crisis. It would be nice to see a scene were like Stiles, Malia, Scott and Kira are watching a movie or something. This season also spent way to much time dealing with characters I could care less about (the assesens and random redshirts) and not really developing characters I do care about (Malia, Kira and Liam to some extent). That being said I still generally enjoy the show and will continue watching.

[Bruinsfan]

Season 1 did have a better mix of main arc mystery (who is the alpha? what does it want from Scott?) and fun subplots about teen romances, rivalries, and general high school activities. I suppose it's natural that the characters would be more serious and concerned with the big picture after going through so much trauma, but I think the show would do well to de-escalate the stakes of the season arc and concentrate more on slice-of-life moments between the characters. Particularly throwing in a lot of parent-child interaction, as the writers excel at those scenes and the actors tend to knock them out of the park.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Bruinsfan

[ElleryAnne]

But it's "big" viewer start to petering out somewhere along the line, to a high but still not as high as the premier rating trend is the same as all seasons of TW (minus season 1).

 

 

It's true that the trend each season is that the ratings drop a bit after the season premiere, but this season's overall drop is worse than they've had in previous seasons.  And the penultimate episode of the season usually gets decent ratings as people get ready for the finale.  But this season, that episode was way down.  The show's been bleeding nearly a million viewers since the start of the season and I don't know if it does concern them, but it ought to.  

 

I don't think the competition or time of year it airs has very much to do with it.  I think it's just that this season, the emphasis is on the wrong characters and relationships and the overall characterization is flat and that's making viewers not care as much.  It doesn't help that the main plot is such a mess (though I think the show's viewers would stay with it in spite of a poorly-written plot if they were happy with the characters).  I suspect they'll pick up in the ratings for the finale as usual, but I think they may be in trouble if they want to go beyond S5 unless they address some of the stuff they did wrong this season.  

[bluebonnet]

The biggest problem is that nearly all of the storylines that were started were immediately dropped or ignored for no discernible reason.  The Caleveras' haven't punished Scott for biting a human even though they threatened harsh penalties if he should do so.  Derek's de-aging seems to have been forgotten or else they expect us to believe that Kate did it all in order to find a dumb pendant rather than just use some sort of magical tea to make regular Derek talk.  Which makes no sense anyway, since Kate hasn't even been shown to be out of control since that flashback of her being put in a storeroom to kill herself.  They've completely ignored answering the question of who actually stole the money to begin with.  They have the Eichen House orderly being Meredith's pawn despite the fact that he's completely free with his sedatives and could have knocked Meredith out at any time or just thrown her into an isolation room.  Then they end the Benefactor plot by saying it was all Peter and he didn't even remember it because it was just coma dreams so he can't be held liable.  And of course, the Benefactor plot had no actual stakes for the main cast because magical tea, unless you count Kira's mom getting the stomach stab.  But she's 900 years old and we already know she's a rapid healer, so who cares anyway?  The only person who actually suffered was Liam and his suffering had nothing to do with the Benefactor since he was turned when Kate's Berserkers came after them.  Those who died due to the Benefactor plot were literal nobodies, both to the audience and to the main cast.  We didn't know who they were and the main cast didn't know who they were.  It's a problem with the red shirts are red shirts even to the characters.  

 

Seriously, everything that happened after episode one seems to have nothing to do with anything at all.  They are literally back where they started, with Kate in the tombs in Mexico working magic on one of the wolves.  This season might as well have been just two episodes.

 

I have no faith in them being able to draw out a decent story for a full 22+ (not sure of the exact number) fifth season.  I bet there will be a whole lot of magical teas and magical keys for various plot points that act as filler between episode one and episode twenty-whatever.  

[FurryFury]

Re: the money theft, at this point I won't be surprised if Peter stole the money from himself. Why? Just because. That's how Teen Wolf rolls.

[justcris]

Didn't they say Brunski stole the money at Meredith's orders? Or did I just make that up in my head? Haha!

[ahisma]

When Brunski was dying, he said something like, "You thought I controlled Meredith? No she controlled me." So we're probably meant to infer that Meredith decided to set up Peter's kill-em-all fantasy and ordered him to steal the money. But it's paper thin and doesn't hold up to questions like, how would Meredith/Brunski know that Derek and Kate were going to be opening the vault that night, making the money stealable.

[Bruinsfan]

That evening had at least the potential for a number of people to die, so I don't have any big problem with Meredith foreseeing it and being able to direct Brunski to the bonds. She was able to identify people for her hit list before they actually became werewolves, after all.

 

Which makes no sense anyway, since Kate hasn't even been shown to be out of control since that flashback of her being put in a storeroom to kill herself.

Don't forget her losing control in the gas station restroom and ripping the attendant apart. I actually thought they handled the repurcussions of Kate becoming a werecreature well, though how she knew about the (phony) triskellion in a secret vault and why she came up with such a convoluted plot to get it remain a mystery.

 

I liked the finale a lot more than the filler eps leading up to it, kind of the opposite of Season 2 where everything was great until it fell apart in the finale. Especially thrilled to finally have Derek turning into a full wolf after waiting for it since Season 2!

[lion10]

So how many of you read Teen Wolf Meta?  I'm seeing some interesting theories for Season 5 regarding Scott and especially Kira.

[Yitzhak]

So how many of you read Teen Wolf Meta?  I'm seeing some interesting theories for Season 5 regarding Scott and especially Kira.

 

I've read a bit of TW meta but it often seems to consist of fans placing huge emphasis on moments that probably weren't supposed to be significant at all in order to prove a theory or just metaing for shipping purposes. But feel free to share the Scott and Kira theories anyway. S4 left me with no clue about what any character will be doing in S5, besides searching for the Desert Wolf and starting senior year of high school.    

Edited November 9, 2014 by Yitzhak

[lion10]

I read this cool meta that theorizes that "Smoke and Mirrors" was intended to be lackluster and that the main action of Scott fighting Peter was the "smoke and mirrors" that obscured what was actually important about the episode.  The meta says what Kira didn't see was actually Noshiko but Tezcatlipoca masquerading as her mother to possess her.  Kira was sitting adjacent to a wall of obsidian, a "mirror" of sorts and breaks it to trigger her healing factor.  This sounds a bit tinfoily but here's a link to the Tumblr post that explains it better than I do.  I don't agree with everything the author says but parts of it do make sense.  

[Yitzhak]

The author of that post writes a lot of very detailed TW metas and while many of them are thoughtful and convincing, I also think those theories are over-blown wishful thinking. The same author insists that Stiles secretly has supernatural powers (a popular meta theory on Tumblr which I don't buy into at all) and that Derek is secretly in love with Stiles and considers Stiles to be his anchor. It's hard to buy into a meta writer's theories when they insist that Sterek are being foreshadowed as a future power couple in canon. The same canon where to the two characters rarely interact.

 

As someone who once read and was taken in by a lot of complex Lost theories (only to learn the show didn't really have much deeper meaning or explanations to speak of) I can't bring myself to hope that TW has any kind of deep meaningful plan. I think TW is a "what you see is what you get show". And sometimes it is just plain nonsensical.  

 

That said, I'd love it if the events at the temple were the start of a big arc for Kira next season. However I doubt they'd do it in the form of another possession arc. And I don't believe they'll ever give Scott a "dark arc". S4 would've been the time to do it if they were going to go there. I think the writers were better off giving dark arcs to Allison and Stiles than their lead hero. Scott being really tested in the final(?) season could well happen. But Scott has already experienced a person he cares about being controlled by dark forces so I hope they wouldn't repeat that same storyline.      

Edited November 9, 2014 by Yitzhak

[ahisma]

I think TW is a "what you see is what you get show". And sometimes it is just plain nonsensical.

I'm with you. Jeff and the writers can't even get something as obvious as 'the lightning kitsune wielding the metal chain' right. "What, electrify the chain? Oh, we didn't even think of it." They're dealing in surface level story. "Remember, Peter was crazy while he was in a coma healing from the fire. Now here were consequences to that." A good chunk of the time they even get that wrong because Jeff refuses to create a show bible. He doesn't care about continuity so no one should.

Jeff has admitted several times that he did too much too fast with 3a, 3b, and 4, and even he didn't know what was going to be happening in 5. Not to mention, he's rarely on the shooting floor and things get filmed in ways that don't match his most basic aims. (He has said Aiden's stabbing should have been more obviously a fatal blow and he would have asked for another take if he had been there. Stiles' first description of Malia sneaking into his bedroom did not match at all with the portrayal of it several episodes later.) So 1) other than the basics on the table of the Desert Wolf and the secret supers wing of Eichen House, Jeff had no s5 plot in mind. And 2) even if he did, things like the face Dylan O'Brien makes or who was standing in full sunlight and who had a slight shadow on their face are out of his control.

And Jeff has also said on multiple occasions that Stiles has no magic—the magic was in the mountain ash.

[Bruinsfan]

But that means Stiles isn't an extra-special sparkly snowflake that can whisk 13-year-old girls away to a fairytale castle and live happily ever after with them! How could Jeff be so cruel?

[lion10]

But that means Stiles isn't an extra-special sparkly snowflake that can whisk 13-year-old girls away to a fairytale castle and live happily ever after with them! How could Jeff be so cruel?

The Teen Wolf fandom's simultaneous veneration of Stiles and consistent hating on Scott really irritates me. Stiles is cool and Dylan's the better actor, but Stiles isn't that awesome.

[Yitzhak]

 

And Jeff has also said on multiple occasions that Stiles has no magic—the magic was in the mountain ash.

 

The more recent "Stiles is magic!" theories are based on moments in S4 like - Agent McCall's bullet missing Stiles's head, Stiles and Malia getting locked in the hospital room and Stiles getting cell service in the temple. All of which are supposedly evidence of Stiles's "spark" or secret superpowers.

 

 

But that means Stiles isn't an extra-special sparkly snowflake that can whisk 13-year-old girls away to a fairytale castle and live happily ever after with them! How could Jeff be so cruel?

 

I'm actually a really big Stiles fan but for me, Stiles being anything other than human would spoil his character. Jeff and Dylan have always said they think it's important that Stiles remains human, so I don't see why the 'Stiles is magic' theory is so rampant. It's already been shot down.     

Edited November 11, 2014 by Yitzhak

[Bruinsfan]

I'm not that fond of the character myself (while acknowledging that Dylan is indeed the best of the younger actors on the show by a fair margin), but his good old fashioned human determination and resourcefulness are what make him special. Random tacked-on supernatural powers would just distract from that.

[caseylane]

I've been in fandom a looooong time (Hello Highlander and Sentinel) and I think it's fairly common for the human character to be given special powers. I disagree with the concept, I like the fact a human can keep up with the inhuman. Still some see it as a way to equalize the power dynamic, especiall if it's a het/slash pairing.

 

When they showed Melissa closing a Mountain Ash circle I knew fandom would be in a tizzy because then Stiles wouldn't be the only one that had a "spark", a phrase I am extremely tired of seeing used in fanfic. Still, it doesn't keep me away and one of my favorite stories is the slash-lite, podfic version of "Play it Again" and Stiles is magical in that.

Edited November 11, 2014 by caseylane

[lion10]

Where does the term "spark" come from? I'm pretty sure that Teen Wolf has only used it in relation to Alphas.

[caseylane]

Deaton told Stiles he was to be the "spark" to make the Mountain Ash work.

[Yitzhak]

Deaton told Stiles he was to be the "spark" to make the Mountain Ash work.

 

Right. But those fans seem to ignore the fact that Deaton isn't magical either. He's a human who knows how to use magical tools. If anything, I thought the mountain ash moment might foreshadow Stiles eventually becoming Scott's emissary. But then Stiles has been acting as Scott's unofficial emissary/yoda from Day 1. That's something I've wondered about - does Stiles need to become a druid to truly qualify as Scott's emissary?       

Edited November 11, 2014 by Yitzhak

[lion10]

So how many of you guys think there's more to Malia's backstory that will be revealed in Season 5?  Or do you think the plot holes in her story are just crappy writing?

[ElleryAnne]

Or do you think the plot holes in her story are just crappy writing?

 

 

Yes.

[lion10]

Kind of rambling here:  I think one interesting part about the werewolves is that their society is essentially governed by warlords in the form of Alphas.  According to Deaton, True Alphas are extremely rare, meaning that most Alphas probably get their power by either killing or deposing the previous Alpha.  And that feature is so ubiquitous that it's an excepted feature in werewolf society.  That probably doesn't make for the friendliest of pack dynamics, knowing that there's always at least a couple of betas that would kill you if they got the chance.  And the people willing to kill their Alpha probably aren't the type of people you want governing a group of super powered individuals.  I wonder if Scott's ascension to True Alpha is maybe going to spark a change in the way the California packs work, maybe becoming less authoritarian in their governing styles.    

Edited December 4, 2014 by lion10

[ahisma]

I think a lot of packs get a new alpha when the current alpha dies naturally/in an accident or is killed by a human. Or, this is conjecture and it may not ever come up on the show, it may even be possible for an alpha to "retire" by passing on the alpha power to the next in line, similar to how Derek donated his alpha power to save Cora.

The Hale pack we saw in the past seemed to focus on hunters as a threat, not internal threats. And Deucalion seemed to be surprised that he got his beta's power when he killed him. If fights for alphahood and "warlord" leaders were common, that would be common knowledge and there would likely be more than one alpha pack.

(And I doubt there will be much more to Malia's story other than what we learn about her mother. Jeff has admitted that he hoped viewers would gloss over the plot holes because making her story realistic would have been boring.)

[Yitzhak]

So how many of you guys think there's more to Malia's backstory that will be revealed in Season 5?  Or do you think the plot holes in her story are just crappy writing?

 

I think the explanation for the majority of S4 is crappy writing.

 

So the question really is - will S5 be crappy too?

 

I'm wondering if TW can redeem itself somewhat with this longer hiatus? S4 was rushed out so fast after S3, seemed so poorly planned and ended up being a big hot mess. Apparently the writers started work on S5 in October and won't be filming anything until January or February at the earliest (after Dylan finishes filming Scorch Trials). It might also help if the writers are looking at S5 as being potentially the last season of the show and therefore go back to focusing on the core characters. Personally I'm not a Malia hater but given the backlash they've received over her character & her relationship with Stiles, the wisest course of action might be to reduce her role rather than bring more focus to her sketchy character development. I'd rather S5 focus on Scott, Stiles and Lydia first and foremost.    

 

I do think it's possible for a show to recover after a poor season. Dexter S6 was appalling but Dexter S7 was a (mostly) surprising return to form (though the less said about Dexter S8 the better). And it wasn't so long ago that these same writers pulled 3b out of their asses which I still think is arguably their strongest season of the show.    

Edited December 7, 2014 by Yitzhak

[lion10]

Season 5 will probably be a lot better. They've got a lot of interesting threads to deal with. All shows have a bad season at some point in their run but most manage to recover. Look at the difference between the Vampire Diaries season 5 and 6. I'd rather the writers focus more on Malia and Kira more than Lydia. Lydia's never been a very interesting character to me whereas Kira, Malia, and Braeden have greater potential.

[lion10]

Couple of mythology questions:

 

1.  Is Kira actually a fox (no obvious jokes pls)?  As a kitsune, that's the foundation of the creature, that they're originally foxes that learn to transform into a human.  Or is she a spirit that only looks human?

 

2.  What good are banshees?  Lydia's useful when it comes to finding dead bodies, but she seems to only be able to predict death.  Every time she's screamed, someone has died but IIRC, there hasn't been a time when her predicting death has led someone to avert it or change their actions, so what's the point?  

Edited February 27, 2015 by lion10

[blueray]

I'm looking forward to another season. Does anyone know when the next one is set to air?

 

I'm hoping this season that they define "finally" what Lydia can do, other then find a body. I could careless about Mila's mother, however I'd like so more backstory.

[Bruinsfan]

2.  What good are banshees?  Lydia's useful when it comes to finding dead bodies, but she seems to only be able to predict death.  Every time she's screamed, someone has died but IIRC, there hasn't been a time when her predicting death has led someone to avert it or change their actions, so what's the point?  

Didn't her automatic drawing in Season 3 clue everyone in that they were looking for the Nemeton, and thus set in motion the sequence of events that allowed them to rescue Sheriff Stillinski, Mrs. McCall, and Chris Argent? Other than that I don't recall any upsides for Lydia or her friends, although of course from a dramatic standpoint her banshee powers allow for the frequent discovery of dead bodies without having to employ ridiculous contrivances, and for the surprise resurrection of snarky evil werewolves when Gerard Argent's Shakespeare quotations got to be too much to take.

[lion10]

I just want some damn worldbuilding in this show.  Are werewolves rare?  Are kitsune confined to Japan and the Koreas?  How do werewolves and kitsune regard each other?  How do druids regard kitsune?  What do hunters think of druids?  How does one become a druid?  What are the inter-pack dynamics?    Vampire Diaries has issues, but one thing you have to give it and The Originals credit for is mostly solid world-building.  We know how immortals and vampires came to be.  We know how werewolves, witches, and vampires feel about the other supernatural species (they all hate each other).  We know that werewolves are nearly extinct due to a vampire xenocide campaign. We know how hybrids are made and we know the powers and limitations of vampires, werewolves, hybrids, and witches.  The background in Teen Wolf is pathetically sparse in comparison.  I don't know why Jeff Davis doesn't bother trying to put just a little more effort into the show.   

[amensisterfriend]

Which season and episodes would you guys pick as your favorites so far? Least favorites?! 

[FurryFury]

3B as favorite, 4 as least favorite.

[ElleryAnne]

Favorite is 2, but 1 is pretty close.

 

Least favorite is 4.

[justcris]

My favourite is season 3, no doubt about it. Both 3A and 3B. I thought 3A was really strong after 305, and 3B was very strong all the way through.

 

Least favourite I'd say 4. Just because at this moment I can't even remember what it was about.

[lion10]

Season 3B was definitely my favorite.  Season 4 was probably the worst.  It was alright but I the plot was paper thin.

[Sisygambis]

I loved season 2 for general hilarity and 3B for the darker tone (and the darker Stiles.)  My absolute worst was 4 - it made no sense at all.

[Bruinsfan]

Season 2 was my favorite, with 1 close behind ("Night School" is probably still my favorite single episode). 4 was definitely the worst, about the only parts I enjoyed out of the whole thing were Peter's monologues and Derek's shirtless and/or pantsless scenes.

[snakenax]

Favorite was 2, though 3B comes close, least favorite was season 4(it felt like a season that had to be written, cast and filmed within two months because basically every script and idea could have used a couple more passes at least).

[bettername2come]

This is hard because with each season, there are elements I like, and episodes that make my top 5. Season 4 is definitely my least favorite. I guess I have to say 3B, even as my heart says "But season 1 has 'Night School!' You love that episode!"

 

What about favorite episodes from each season?

1 - "Night School"

2 - "Fury"

3A - "Motel California" 

3B - "Riddled" maybe? Tough call, because there's so many good episodes, but they are kind of hard to pick out one stand alone best.

4 - "Perishable" - Just for naked, pissed off Parrish, but "Weaponized" comes in a close second for the badass "Stiles would rather die than betray his friends" scene.

[greenbean]

Least, 3A. The Alpha pack was awful.

 

Liked all the other seasons tbh, but especially the early ones that nodded towards The Lost Boys.

[blueray]

I would say my order  of seasons would be:

 

season 2: show had its footing and it was nice to see some high school stuff.

season 1: I like the first season, great way to start the show.

season 3B:  Really dark but I like Stiles being front and center. And some great character moments

season 4: Other then Liam seriously nothing happened. And I didn't like that they brought Kate back, let characters stay dead.

season 3A: I didn't like the Alpha storyline and was annoyed that they didn't kill that guy at the end of it. And couldn't stand the twins.

[FilmTVGeek80]

Season 2 was my favorite, with season 1 being a close second. Then 3A and 3B. Four is my least favorite by far. With every other season I have favorite episodes and favorite moments I like to re-watch. I can honestly say there's not a single moment in season 4 I'd care to see again.

[BooBear]

Favorite is 2, but 1 is pretty close.

Season 1 and Season 2 is a close runner up but the finale was insanely lame. I think my favorite episode was Lunatic. I loved the way Derek was portrayed there and I loved !! evil!! Scott. I wish this show could be rebooted with the same actors and without Jeff Davis.  I feel like they miss so many opportunities and what we love about this show is the actors who really bring the material up. Also in terms of powers, it seems they just pull them out of the air but to me, it has always seemed a natural extension of the "beta" ability to take pain away, to an alpha's ability to heal another. Yet they never seem to take it -- ugh.

[Bruinsfan]

Well, Derek used it to heal Cora from a nearly fatal case of mistletoe poisoning, but that drained him back down to beta level permanently. Whereas being used as the battery for Peter's resurrection was apparently less exhausting? No, it still makes no sense whatsoever.