All Episodes Talk: If Three is a Pattern...

[ElleryAnne]

Marking this topic for spoilers for obvious reasons.

 

Anyway, first up:

 

I'm hoping someone can refresh my memory here.  At the beginning of season 3B, Stiles, Scott and Allison were all dealing with the "open doors" in their minds causing problems for them - Allison with her hallucinations about Kate, Scott with the issues controlling his wolf, and Stiles with his nightmares and everything else.  By the end of the season, we've had the whole plot and resolution on the nogitsune and Stiles, and I guess Allison's issues have become irrelevant, but what about Scott?  Is that door in his mind closed now?  

Edited May 11, 2014 by CuriousParker

[Guest]

A place to discuss particular episodes (that do not have specific episode threads), arcs and moments from the show's run. Please remember this isn't a complete catch-all topic -- check out the forum for character topics and other places for show-related talk.


Please feel free to start new topics for characters, episodes, media mentions, actors, small talk, etc.

[Jack Kerouac]

Is that door in his mind closed now?

 

 

 

I believe that is a plot thread that will never be tied up or even mentioned again.

[blueray]

I think that he overcame his fears by accepting his innerwolf and his door is now closed. And Alision probably didn't close hers but it's irrelevant now.

[lion10]

Random thought, but has Jeff Davis ever asserted whether Peter is supposed to be a reference to "Peter and the Wolf" or is Peter's name random?

[bettername2come]

Random thought today: I just tried to calculate the number of people who have died since the pilot. I got about 45 ( I guessed about 5 people were killed at the hospital by Nogitsune!Stiles.), and I feel like I'm forgetting some. Considering that the past three seasons of the show have all taken place over the course of about one year, that's quite a lot and would probably make Beacon Hills the most dangerous town in America. Man, Agent McCall was right to try to take Stilinski's job. 

 

Also, was there a plot thread about jobs being cut at the hospital in the last episode? Don't the evil supernatural creatures do that for them?

 

By the end of the season, we've had the whole plot and resolution on the nogitsune and Stiles, and I guess Allison's issues have become irrelevant, but what about Scott?  Is that door in his mind closed now?

 

That's why he's a sucky fighter as an alpha! The mind door is screwing things up for him. But yeah, the writers probably just forgot.

[caseylane]

What's sad is that I get better character development and continuity with Adventure Time than I do this show.

[Richness]

It's not a pattern of three, but it is a pattern of two. What's with the actor name pairs? We've always had two Tylers (Posey and Hoelchen). Now we have two Dylans (O'Brien and Sprayberry). That's gotta get confusing for the directors. "OK, Tyler, move toward Dylan. No! The other Tyler; right Dylan." Bet they used the character names.

[Minneapple]

What's sad is that I get better character development and continuity with Adventure Time than I do this show.

And the worst part is, you'd think Jeff Davis would learn from his past mistakes (hello, Cora), but it seems he never does. Someone at Comic Con asked about Malia's near-seamless integration into society, and he said it was one of those TV things that he hoped people didn't notice. Did you also think that never explaining how Cora escaped the fire and never properly developing her relationship with Derek was also one of those TV things people didn't notice? He also got annoyed with people who kept questioning Derek's age and timeline, because it was bizarre and made no sense. But apparently this is another one of those TV things that we're just supposed to ignore because OH HEY STEREK SHOUTOUT HOECHLIN'S ABS WOOOO. I can forgive a lot, especially if I find the characters likeable and relatable, but don't assume I'm an idiot. 

 

I think this show hit a high point with the introduction of Kira and Nogitsune Stiles and I don't see it regaining that kind of vibe. I'm mostly bored by this season. It's all over the place and I feel like they're trying to do too much.

Edited August 1, 2014 by Minneapple

[caseylane]

I agree, the last half of last season was so much better. Of course, this season is better than the entire Demon Wolf, I mean Alpha Pack mess. That was just painful to watch.

[KatWay]

Yeah, seriously, Cora. That character is like the epitome of what is wrong with this show. Fuck continuity, logic, or profound character development, just look at the pretty instead. 

 

At this point I would prefer it if they just retconned her out of existence rather than oh, Derek's underage, suprisingly not dead, long lost sister that he gave up his alpha status for in order to save her life? Yeah, she like lives in South America now or something. 

 

And I'm all the more annoyed that they even introduced her if all they were ever gonna use her for was a convenient way to take Derek's alphaness and be a potential love interest for one of the guys. Why even make her Derek's sister? She could have been Cora the random neighbour girl, Derek still could have saved her, would have made him look even more heroic, still could have been a love interest, and nobody would ask questions like where the hell was she all this time, how the hell did she survive the fire and why does seemingly nobody care about this stuff? 

[wayne67]

For me the biggest failing of this show is that it asks me to care about these characters and their dramas and yet it doesn't seem to keep track of what would be the most logical responses based on their experiences. Or build up much on any of the backstory or motivations of the world they are building. Why should I care about their lives if nothing they do makes any sense and is full of inconsistencies.

 

So far the only character that seems to be reacting to all the nonsense/death that keeps piling up on them in 'a single year ?' is Lydia who seems to be slowly unravelling under the weight of the 'packs' expectation and constantly running into dead bodies and having no idea what's going on.

 

Scott is supposed to be the moral centre of the group or something and I know very little about his inner world except that he likes new girls and Stiles is his best friend. I have no idea what's going on between his father and him. Does he love him? hate him? tolerate his presence ? is he just a general nuisance?

 

Agent Mccall keeps showing up and I keep wondering is he going to become relevant at some point. Melissa was integral to Peter's emotional blackmail attempt and has key interactions with the teens over dead bodies and injuries. Agent McCall just seems to be underfoot with no emotional stakes.

 

It's been 4 seasons of this show and we still have very little idea of what a 'True Alpha' is, or how packs are formed, ended (other than mass homicides) or even the werewolf creation myth. Admittedly this may have been addressed during Wolf Watch but I don't have access to that and I've always disliked canon supplementals on principle.

 

Disappearing important characters. I think this is the most major issue I have with this show is that characters appear and disappear without any of the characters seeming to pay much attention. Cora disappears after showing up out of the blue and noone asks the most logical questions "How did you survive the fire that killed the rest of your family and why did you go to South America?" she could have answered in 30 seconds with "I had amnesia till 5 minutes ago". It would have been cheesy and stupid as a backstory but at least I wouldn't hate the main characters for being indifferent. Or how about Peter having his throat ripped out by Derek then coming back from the dead using banshee power? Personally if I was in a town such as Beacon Hills with a high fatality rate I'd want to know how SOMEONE CAME BACK FROM THE DEAD. That's kind of important information. Isaac; when is Scott who was theoretically his Alpha/foster brother/ roommate going to ask Argent about him at all, I'd settle for "how's Isaac"? "he decided he loved France and it was far away from all his bad memories so he decided to stay". Or the gay twin... My brother just died trying to get us into this stupid pack because we have enemies everywhere else so yeah remember how that was a plot point? well now i'm going to wander off alone where I probably have lots of enemies for all that Alpha pack backed homicide. Danny missing for most of the season could be solved by Stiles asking Coach "where's Danny" "he's got leprosy now and he's not well enough to play " hell that isn't even a thing these days but explain why major recurring characters aren't on the show any more. I'd mention how Gerard, Deucalion and even Peter are random mass murderers still running loose upon the world with apparently no supervision by Scott or his pack but UGH.

 

If you introduce characters they should have some relevance to the general arc of the story you're trying to tell. The Orphan assassins and the Mute guy were added and spent several episodes on our respective screens and now they're dead and their whole feeding tubes and teen assassins are probably going to be completely ignored as if that's not remotely interesting to the characters or the audience.

[ahisma]

Wayne, I need multiple thumbs ups or your comment.

At least Jeff finally admitted that Malia's nonsensical role (feral girl suddenly in high school taking advanced math) is something he hoped audiences would gloss over as TV logic. You'd think most creators would be thrilled people love their show enough to get invested in the story, but it looks like he actually wishes we didn't care quite as much. Don't make it come true, man.

Edited August 2, 2014 by ahisma

[bettername2come]

Of course, this season is better than the entire Demon Wolf, I mean Alpha Pack mess. That was just painful to watch.

 

I keep forgetting about these guys. If I think about the villain of 3A, I think "Oh, Jennifer Blake. Evil chick tried to sacrifice Papa Stilinski and Mama McCall. Killed like a dozen people. Scary real face." But DEMON WOLF totally slips my mind. Not just bad, forgettable.

[Minneapple]

Of course, this season is better than the entire Demon Wolf, I mean Alpha Pack mess. That was just painful to watch.

LOL yeah, that's true. Maybe we just need to lower our standards. Remember when Teen Wolf REALLY sucked? Well, at least it's only mildly boring now as opposed to HORRIBLY AWFUL!

 

I have no idea what's going on between his father and him. Does he love him? hate him? tolerate his presence ? is he just a general nuisance?

 

Agent Mccall keeps showing up and I keep wondering is he going to become relevant at some point. Melissa was integral to Peter's emotional blackmail attempt and has key interactions with the teens over dead bodies and injuries. Agent McCall just seems to be underfoot with no emotional stakes.

Well so far the best scenes with Agent McCall have been between him and...Stiles -- whether it's been regular old Stiles or Nogitsune Stiles. Maybe it's just because Dylan is the better actor -- though I will say I liked the scene last season where Scott tells off his dad.

 

The writers actually did a halfway decent job of making Agent McCall human toward the end of last season. It seemed as though they were going for him trying to bond with Scott at the beginning of this season, but it appears that that has been forgotten. His high point this year was the amusing dinner with Stiles and Young Derek. Not sure what the point was in keeping a character around just for that.

[galax-arena]

Of course, this season is better than the entire Demon Wolf, I mean Alpha Pack mess.

But what do you think about MOUNTAIN ASHHHHHHHHHHHHH? 

[wayne67]

But what do you think about MOUNTAIN ASHHHHHHHHHHHHH?

 

 

I still find it curious that people refer to the powder as mountain ash. Isn't it really mountain ash ash... Since mountain ash is a tree and what they're doing is spreading a powder around. 

 

Anyway I'm still trying to figure out how Deaton set a circle with the vet clinic in the middle that stopped other werewolves somehow but allowed Scott in... Was it a no killer werewolf mountain ash ash circle ?

 

Do you think this show will ever address the core concept of this show and answer some questions about werewolfness ? If I was the hopeful kind I'd hope that meeting a 100 year old werewolf would mean that Scott could ask someone about setting up his first pack or how to rein in betas with some chant about the truth sun and moon instead of using anchors such as love or anger or whatever the other kids use. You know so he'd be a good leader/alpha to Liam/Malia. Is Malia in his pack ? Can a werewolf pack have a werecoyote in it? are were coyotes a sub set. Why must i think about this show? It will only hurt my brain since I'm not sure any of these subjects have been thought about as much as I have by the writers. 

[caseylane]

 Why must i think about this show? It will only hurt my brain since I'm not sure any of these subjects have been thought about as much as I have by the writers. 

This is the chant repeated by most of us.

[bettername2come]

Why don't Stiles and Scott just give Derek back the money they've recovered and ask if they can borrow whatever they need? I don't see why Derek would say no. Money really doesn't seem to matter to him. Or steal just what they need and give Derek the rest? Why haven't they had a "Plot to Kill Peter, Part 2" pack meeting if they're so worried about him getting in their heads? Is Peter legally dead? Or did he just go missing from the facility he was in and just come back into town all, "Guess who's not catatonic and has a normal face now?"

 

Why must i think about this show? It will only hurt my brain since I'm not sure any of these subjects have been thought about as much as I have by the writers.

 

There's so many things I think Teen Wolf does right where other teen dramas fail, that the things is does wrong drive me crazier, because it could be better. A school with at least four recurring teachers? Great! Security measures on standardized tests? Awesome, you beat Switched At Birth! Loving parent/child relationships and friendships? Teen Wolf kicks ass at those! Failing all your classes because supernatural shenanigans have cut into your study time and made you miss class? Totally a possibility! 

 

But cohesive plotlines and character arcs? Now, that's asking too much.

[ahisma]

Why don't Stiles and Scott just give Derek back the money they've recovered and ask if they can borrow whatever they need? I don't see why Derek would say no. Money really doesn't seem to matter to him.

They completely dropped the topic this week, but Stiles' argument would have been better if he had said, "Give it to Derek, sure, then what if he dies like Lydia predicted? Then Peter has it! Peter!"

[Yitzhak]

Since this is the 'All Episodes' thread I was going to ask what are people's favorite episodes from each season?

 

Mine would be:

S1 = Lunatic

S2 = Fury

S3a = Motel California

S3b = Riddled

S4 = Weaponized

 

So I seem to favor the 'going crazy while trapped in a hellish environment' type of TW episode.   

[bettername2come]

1 - Night School - The show proves it can do horror movie well, and it's the first time we get to see all the teen characters together for an extended period of time.

 

2 - Fury - Another hostage situation, this time with Mama McCall and Sheriff Stilinski. Melissa finds out about Scott and breaks my/his heart, followed by Allison pulling a crossbow on him and breaking my heart, Scott's working with Gerard (I think this episode revealed it to a further extent), and Stiles still tries to get to his father even when half-paralyzed.

 

3A - The Overlooked. I love the family dynamics in this one as once again, Derek's girlfriend is threatening the life of his family. Poor guy. Peter seems to genuinely care about Cora which confuses the heck out of me in the best way. Stiles cries over his missing father. It has the most heartbreaking ending as Melissa is taken and Scott goes after her with Deucalion while Stiles watches ( great music choice in "And the World Was Gone").  Plus, it has a "Back to the Future" reference and is establishes the "power outages and things go horribly wrong at Beacon Hills Memorial" theme.

 

 

3B - Riddled. Scott and Stiles hug.

 

4 - Time of Death, I think. But based on the promos I don't think it'll stay my favorite. There's some upcoming stuff that looks like it will be better.

[Bruinsfan]

1 - Night School. I thought it really ratcheted the tension up well, and was all-around enjoyable.

 

2 - Ice Pick. It has that great double date at the ice rink, Derek's recruiting drive, and Victoria Argent demonstrating that she's scarier than any supernatural creature.

 

3a - Motel California. Interesting looks into the minds of each of the characters, and that wonderful final scene where Stiles talks Scott down from self-immolation.

 

3b - I don't know, I really didn't like much about these episodes. Maybe the 1940s flashback, or the one where Derek breaks up the blacklight party kids are throwing in his apartment?

 

4 - 117 of the ones so far, but there's room for improvement.

[Yitzhak]

 

Despite all the assassins and the deaths of people Scott is apparently supposed to protect, I feel no emotional investment this season. Last season I was legitimately worried about Stiles going crazy/being dead/staying evil and that was resolved by being scratched by Scott which was a lame resolution that made very little sense but whatevers. This season the 'gang' is under jeopardy every other episode by poorly introduced antagonists/assassins and I know it's unlikely anyone will actually die. I struggle to take their life and death drama seriously since Lydia who has no super strength and limited understanding of her powers is apparently left to her own devices on her own subplot repeatedly while she's on a supernatural hit list. Have these people not heard of the buddy system ?

 

Responding to this post from the episode thread. I have to agree that the major problem with S4 is that its tension is focused on ALL our supernatural heroes being under threat of death EVERY week. Plus they have had Stiles and the parents narrowly escaping death on several occasions too. Little Liam is danger in pretty much every episode he appears in. And yet I also get the feeling that (unless any more actors have asked to be written out) nobody significant is actually dying this season. Derek would seem like the biggest possibility but there have been far too many Derek death fake-outs to take Lydia's prediction too seriously. It'd be a real revelation if he did die because none of the fans seem concerned that it really could happen. And yes, Lydia's isolation and lack of protection when she has the 2nd highest bounty on the list is bothering me too. If she's constantly on her own at the Lake House then she's a sitting duck. Why are none of the assassins going after her?

 

I agree that 3b had a better source of drama with the heroes struggling to both save Stiles and defeat the Nogitsune possessing him. Though I also agree that the resolution was a bit of an easy fix. Once the bad guy had split off into a separate body it was much easier to just kill the bastard. I think they missed an opportunity by not having the Nogitsune switch hosts to Allison towards the end and then having Allison make a heroic sacrifice, killing both the Nogitsune and herself.   

 

Favorite seasons ranked? At the moment I'd order them as - 3b, 2, 1, 4, 3a - as best to worst. 

Edited August 14, 2014 by Yitzhak

[blueray]

My seasons rank would be.

 

1. season 2

2. season 1

3. 3b

4. 4

5. 3a

[lion10]

I think Jeff Davis made a mistake by making the Argents explicitly matriarchal. The reason Chris give in-universe is pretty weak. Men start almost all wars so the women are placed in charge. I think that's only because almost all political leaders of nations are men; but the reasons for why wars are waged (access to resources, conflicting ideologies, desire for wealth) wouldn't go away. In a weird way, that reason is equally sexist to men and women. It assumes men need to be restrained before they burn down the world and it's the job of women to restrain men's darker impulses, instead of men themselves being held responsible. Not to mention that the Argents being explicitly matriarchal is as stupid as it would be if the Argents were explicitly patriarchal. Ultimately, half of the population is being hampered from making decisions for the family when they could have their own good ideas on how to do business. I think Jeff was trying to go for a Buffy/"girl power" vibe but it falls flat.

If Jeff wanted to do a female dominated Argent family, he could've just gone ahead with Victoria calling the shots and Chris deferring to Allison without specifically saying "we're matriarchal". He could've made the Argents like the Yukimuras or the Hales where the women are clearly the leaders, but it's because they're just the best at leading or have special supernatural abilities or have a lot more experience in the supernatural world.

And it's not even like the Argents are doing that well anyways. The family has drastically diminished and is going to disappear after Gerard, Kate, and Chris die due in large part to the actions of Kate, Victoria, and Gerard. But based on the Teen Wolf I've seen, Jeff isn't going to even loosely connect the demise of the Argents with what happens when you give people unearned power.

Edited August 15, 2014 by lion10

[Bruinsfan]

I don't think the show has ever lived up to the description of the Argents being led by women in the family. Chris seemed to have at least as much authority as Kate or Victoria in Season 1, and Gerard was clearly calling the shots throughout Season 2. The only example we have of a real hunter matriarchy in practice is the Calaveras, and that might just be a case of Araya being the best leader among their current ranks rather than a longstanding tradition.

[lion10]

I don't think the show has ever lived up to the description of the Argents being led by women in the family. Chris seemed to have at least as much authority as Kate or Victoria in Season 1, and Gerard was clearly calling the shots throughout Season 2. The only example we have of a real hunter matriarchy in practice is the Calaveras, and that might just be a case of Araya being the best leader among their current ranks rather than a longstanding tradition.

I'm more talking about the explicitly stated idea that the Argents are matriarchal. I'd say Victoria has a bit more clout than Chris. I remember the men debating what to do about Derek and the Alpha in season one and she ended the conversation with "find him and cut him in half. Anyone want a cookie?" And Chris and Gerard both deferred to Allison after Victoria died though I've no idea why someone would give authority to a newbie hunter that just started her training. And when Deucalion wanted to make a deal with the Argents, Deaton mentioned that since the Argents were matriarchal, they probably wouldn't listen to him.

[bettername2come]

Question from season one: Was Peter really out of his mind when he killed Laura? I know at one point they said he was just acting on instinct, but I thought they said later he was lying. Which is it?

[Bruinsfan]

He definitely lured Laura back to Beacon Hills with the spiral marked on a slain deer. Peter may well have been out of his mind with pain and anger at the time, but killing her was a deliberate act rather than instinctive.

[lion10]

Question from season one: Was Peter really out of his mind when he killed Laura? I know at one point they said he was just acting on instinct, but I thought they said later he was lying. Which is it?

In the first season finale, he admitted that he intentionally killed Laura to become Alpha. Which gels with what he said to Kate about wanting power. Imo, the fire permanently damaged Peter's psyche and he's been operating in a semi-crazed state ever since.

Is any one else waiting for Peter and Kate to have completely fucked up hate sex? Their scenes have a lot of inappropriate sexual tension.

Edited August 26, 2014 by lion10

[bettername2come]

Is any one else waiting for Peter and Kate to have completely fucked up hate sex? Their scenes have a lot of inappropriate sexual tension.

 

Well, now I want this to happen just to see Derek's expression when he finds out.

[ahisma]

Eeeeeeeeww! But also, hah! I could actually imagine it happening, except I think they both prefer partners they can dominate a little more easily.

And I need to go shower and bleach my brain, now...

[Bruinsfan]

I don't know, about all we know about Peter's love life is that he got together with this "Desert Wolf" woman under uncertain circumstances, and that he dated Melissa McCall (which indicates he's not completely insane).

[bettername2come]

he dated Melissa McCall (which indicates he's not completely insane).

 

He also gave Natalie Martin his phone number. Which now that I think about it, stop trying to date the moms of people you bite, Peter!

[lion10]

There's been a lot of fanservice directed at guys this season compared to previous seasons, especially season 1 and 2. I wonder what accounts for that shift? And why so relatively late in the game (season 4)? Is Jeff trying to bring in the male demographic? Is it MTV that's causing the shift?

Edited September 5, 2014 by lion10

[Bruinsfan]

I do wonder if executive meddling is at the root of some of the changes to the show. The staged sexy dancing in the pilot and Braeden running around in her underwear in more than one episode feels like a departure from the earlier tone. Not that the show hasn't shown off its actresses' curves in the past, but with Allison, Lydia, and Erica in previous seasons it seemed to fit the story rather than being gratuitous (that was reserved for the male characters).

[bettername2come]

The Tylers certainly have been more prone to wearing shirts than they were in season one. And Lydia used to be the only female consistently in short skirts.

[Yitzhak]

At this point I'm wondering if the finale can do much to redeem S4, which I think challenges S3a as the worst 12 episode run they've done. There have been a few enjoyable self-contained episodes here and there, but the big let down for me was the realization is that the entire Benefactor arc was really...just...filler? Just something to fill the time before the entire season boils down to some separate side plan involving Peter, Kate and the Beserkers in a church in Mexico? Like, really?

 

Other than that it's been a season full of loose ends. To review a few of them...

 

- The 117 million. Did Peter get it back? I'm still unclear exactly how that money was stolen and distributed. And where is it now? Was this explained?

 

- Meredith. Is she back in Eichen house? Or is she in jail? Are there any consequences for her creating a hit list and inspiring a supernatural bloodbath?

 

- Scott's dad. Wasn't he going to have a serious talk with Scott about all the weird shit that had been happening to Scott and his friends? What happened to that?

 

- Liam's stepfather. Didn't he pronounced Scott dead a few weeks ago? Doesn't he have some suspicions of his own? 

 

- Kira's parents. Weren't they wanting to move home? Didn't Kira's mom almost die? Why the hell are they still living in Beacon Hills all things considered?

 

- The Calaveras. They threatened to kill Scott if he turned anyone else into a werewolf, yet no consequences for him turning Liam? And nothing came of them seemingly recruiting Chris either?

 

- Satomi's pack. Did they have any purpose other than being redshirt werewolves for the redshirt assassins?

 

- Lydia's banshee powers. Supposedly S4 was when we'd learn all about Lydia's powers. Apart from learning that her banshee powers were hereditary, did we learn anything new? Or were we just left with more questions. Like, why the bleeding ears? And the disappearing wine?

 

- The Derek nonsense. The de-aging, the eye color change, the loss of wolf powers, the death prophecy...is there going to be one neat explanation for all or any of the ridiculous Derek voodoo?

 

- Kate and the Berserkers. How did Kate get her berserker slaves anyway? And what does it even mean that Kate turned into a Were-jaguar?  

 

- Parrish. What is he? Why are they bothering to drag this out?  

 

- The Desert Wolf. Considering that they've barely bothered to do anything with the Peter & Malia father/daughter relationship and they have forgotten entirely about her adoptive father why should we care about more Malia family relationships? 

 

I can't see them making sense of all this in the S4 finale, even if it is an extended episode. All I can hope for is that the finale sets up a more interesting premise for S5. And since they have the main kids going into their senior year, I hope they'll have the sense to make S5 the last season.   

Edited September 5, 2014 by Yitzhak

[ahisma]

I would bet that the Calaveras, Parrish, the Desert Wolf, and probably Liam's Dr. Hot Stepdad and Scott's dad are on the agenda for s5.

Possibly the 117 mill, the Derek nonsense, and Kate and the Berserkers will get some time in the finale. (And Mason finding out about the supernatural.)

Meredith, Kira's parents, Satomi's pack, and Lydia's banshee powers are going back into the closet of narrative convenience—something for the writers to pull out again, or never, as they feel like it. See also: Deucalion, Gerard, Ms. Morrell, Danny, Isaac, Cora, Jackson, Ethan, the '70s computers, Natalie Martin finding out, Kira's powers, Malia's adoptive dad, the remaining missing Hale from the fire, etc....

[ElleryAnne]

At this point I'm wondering if the finale can do much to redeem S4, which I think challenges S3a as the worst 12 episode run they've done.

 

 

I think it's already won that battle.  For me, the finale could address all of the unanswered questions, give actual character development to the newbies, include Danny working with the Scooby gang, have Stiles deal with the emotional repercussions of the Nogitsune possession, have everyone visit Allison's grave, have somebody ask about Isaac, bring Boyd and Erica back from the dead, make Sterek canon and send every viewer a dollar, and even then I'm not sure I wouldn't consider this its weakest season.  It's been an ongoing clusterfuck of plot points that go nowhere.   At least 3A's plot with the sacrifices was interesting and involved the main characters making some difficult decisions; S4's dead pool boiled down to a bunch of people we don't know killing other people we don't know until some computers were shut off.  I don't even know what to do with that.

Edited September 6, 2014 by ElleryAnne

[ahisma]

For me, the finale could address all of the unanswered questions, give actual character development to the newbies, include Danny working with the Scooby gang, have Stiles deal with the emotional repercussions of the Nogitsune possession, have everyone visit Allison's grave, have somebody ask about Isaac, bring Boyd and Erica back from the dead, make Sterek canon

I snorted out loud! Though I am in favor of this happening. I'd take the dollar, too.

[lion10]

A dollar would be nice. Seriously this season was so weird, the compressed time frame shows for how sloppy the season was. It was weird and life is weird too. Like where is Kira in all of this? Where's the BAMFness? A show like Teen Wolf should have kickass action sequences without the damn slow mo. Jeff should know what it is.

[Yitzhak]

 

At least 3A's plot with the sacrifices was interesting and involved the main characters making some difficult decisions; S4's dead pool boiled down to a bunch of people we don't know killing other people we don't know until some computers were shut off.

 

I'd actually say that 3a and 4 suffered from the same narrative problem, that being - too many flimsy new characters who are mostly there to rack up a huge body count. Yet whether it's human sacrifices or assassinations these killing sprees become very tedious very quickly. I guess 3a had some more significant deaths too with Erica and Boyd (though both those deaths were REALLY badly handled and frustrating). In 4 they've had the main characters being almost murdered on a weekly basis yet not once did I feel worried that any of them were in any real danger. Maybe they will finally have something more than false jeopardy in the S4 finale, but I'm doubting it and I'm bracing myself for yet another Derek death fakeout. I do think the magical Derek nonsense in S4 easily tops the "Scott, Stiles and Allison were dead for 16 hours then just woke up again" nonsense from the 3a finale. Maybe they'll kill Kate again (which would make Jill Wagner's whole return seem pointless) or they'll kill Peter (again), which would disappoint me because he's among the more entertaining characters on the show right now.

 

Just as 3a and 4 had similar weaknesses, I feel like S2 and 3b had similar strengths. They both had the same basic central storyline of one of the pack members (Jackson in 2, Stiles in 3b) emerging as the main villain/victim of the season who the pack must work together to both stop and save. That premise worked quite well both times they did it because it brought the pack together and it created more dramatic conflict because they were struggling to rescue the same person who was threatening their survival. Now in the 11th hour of S4 it seems like they might be trying to give Scott the same kanima!Jackson and nogitsune!Stiles treatment by making him a berserker. Which I don't think is going to work half as well as the other two stories which were given a whole seasons worth of development. And as the AV Club pointed out, Scott's big issue in S4 is how he would deal with taking a life, even if it was a matter of Scott killing to protect someone. But if Scott only ends up killing someone as a berserker that removes all Scott's conflict and choice in the killing. Scott wouldn't be responsible for killing anyone - any more than Jackson and Stiles could be held responsible for deaths they caused while they were being controlled/possessed. It seems the writers want to tiptoe towards Scott doing something dark or amoral, only for them to chicken out and make Scott pure again, like the too easy resolution of Scott giving Derek the blood money after a little chat with his mom.      

 

I'll wait and see for what the finale brings. I haven't hated all of S4 - I enjoyed episodes like The Benefactor, Weaponized and Time of Death for the most part. But yeah, overall I think the best I can hope for is that the S4 ending sets up a far more interesting premise for S5. Preferably one that focuses on the core pack characters and not legions of expendable new characters featuring in every episode.

Edited September 6, 2014 by Yitzhak

[ElleryAnne]

I'd actually say that 3a and 4 suffered from the same narrative problem, that being - too many flimsy new characters who are mostly there to rack up a huge body count.

 

 

Definitely too many new characters in each, yes.  But at least most of the new characters in 3A were season-long, some of them had backstory that connected them to core families (i.e. Deucalion, Heather), and not all of the deaths were of random strangers who we'd only known for five seconds.  (Admittedly, I may be the only one who was sad at Harris' death.)  But in S4, there's a been much greater number of characters who are there only to die, or kill, or to flesh out fight scenes.   We don't even always know their names unless we study screencaps of a dead pool list.  The hell.  I can handle the fact that in a horror show, we're always going to be introduced to some disposable characters - it's part of the formula.  But S4 went so far overboard on it.

 

My other major problem with S4 is that the characterization skills of the writers seems to have gone way downhill.  In 3A we only meet Heather for a few moments, yet the little bit of backstory we get on her, along with Stiles' concern for her when she goes missing, all feel genuine.  And I felt bad for Stiles when she died.   I felt more like Heather - as well as Erica and Boyd within an episode or two of their introductions back in S2 - mattered in the TW universe more than any of the newbies in 4A do in spite of an entire season to anchor them to the show.  

 

And it's not as if Boyd or Erica or Heather were extremely well-written or had been given much screen time, but they seemed to "fit" into the narrative rather than just being "put" there.  I felt like I knew the earlier characters better almost immediately.  I knew who they were in Beacon Hills, I knew a bit about them and their struggles and how the main characters were connected to them, and I wanted to know more.  Heck, I even felt like I knew caricatures like Mr. Lahey and felt like he was a part of Beacon Hills, and little absurdities like the Lahey house being across the street from the Whittemore house just made me laugh and shrug it off.  

 

But this season the newbies are getting a hell of a lot more screen time and yet are still one-dimensional and I don't feel connected to them.  That's a fault in the writing somewhere.  I don't know exactly why it's happened (though I blame JD's ego for a lot of it), but the writers' ability to develop characters is not there this season.  

 

Even the characters who've been on the canvas all along are suffering from it.  Stiles feels totally flat, and while I know the show tends to ignore things that happened more than a minute ago, Stiles' experience in 3B should have repercussions for him in 4A.  It irks me that Liam is suddenly getting a PTSD spin with his berserker fears and yet Stiles just whistles along like nothing ever happened.  (Frankly, the real PTSD story should belong to one of the Hales, but since we didn't get it before I'm not holding out hope now.)  DO could and ought to be playing a PTSD story as part of the background to this season, and he's got the acting chops to do it, but they don't seem to be giving him anything to do except support Malia.  And Scott's got no new development, either.  In spite of what the show keeps having other characters tell me, Scott doesn't seem like a special-snowflake True Alpha.  And Kira who?  We got one really good kick-ass scene from her, but other than that she's been dumbed down and left out. And it goes on and on.  Those are problems that 3A and the other seasons didn't have.  

[ahisma]

It irks me that Liam is suddenly getting a PTSD spin with his berserker fears and yet Stiles just whistles along like nothing ever happened. (Frankly, the real PTSD story should belong to one of the Hales, but since we didn't get it before I'm not holding out hope now.)

I think Derek in s1-2 displayed a lot of hypevigilance, which looked like crazy violence to the teens who didn't know him or his backstory. We didn't get the insider look at it we are getting with Liam, though.

I agree that we definitely should be seeing more of Stiles wrestling with the Nogitsune aftermath. Sure, maybe he's sublimating his feelings by concentrating on Malia, but just a flinch at a mention of Allison, or some awkwardness at first with Scott and Lydia would have meant it's not all being swept under the rug.

[Yitzhak]

 

I know the show tends to ignore things that happened more than a minute ago, Stiles' experience in 3B should have repercussions for him in 4A.  It irks me that Liam is suddenly getting a PTSD spin with his berserker fears and yet Stiles just whistles along like nothing ever happened.

 

First off, I think it's obvious now that they are only showing Liam's PTSD over Berserkers because Liam's Alpha has just been turned into a Berserker and they are setting up some finale moment where Berserker!Scott will almost kill Liam (but won't of course since they wisely announced that Lil Dil Spray will be a S5 regular).

 

So I don't think that the writers giving Liam PTSD means they care about his character more than they care about other characters who've been through even worse traumas. Liam's Berserker fear is clearly going to be a plot point before the end of S4. They probably also want to stress that Liam is the baby of the group, so he's more scared and vulnerable even though Scott and Stiles are only two years older and still kids themselves.

 

One of the reasons I liked 3b so much was because that arc had more psychological depth than TW had ever had before. Not just for Stiles, but other characters like Scott and Allison. Again, showing their psychological damage was a kind of a plot point because "lose your mind" was the theme of 3b but it's sad that they dropped it because it gave the show greater depth and maturity. S4 is a huge step back by comparison. And for Stiles in particular, well...it feels like the writers are giving Dylan O'Brien a rest after all the heavy lifting they had him doing in 3b. But as a Stiles fan, I don't think it's been a good move by the writers to bench their star player. Not saying they should have given Stiles another huge storyline right away but in S4 Stiles hasn't had any individual storyline to speak of. His role in all S4 episodes has been to support Scott, Lydia or Malia in whatever they are struggling with. And while Stiles has been the supportive sidekick from the beginning, he's evolved beyond that and well...S4 has been a big step back for him too.

 

Maybe the dipping viewing figures for S4 will be a wake up call. It seems like they rushed S4 out very quickly after the extended S3 and maybe the high viewing figures for 3b especially gave the writers a sense of over-confidence. Here's hoping they'll take stock and then take their time with the S5 storylines.         

Edited September 6, 2014 by Yitzhak

[ElleryAnne]

I think Derek in s1-2 displayed a lot of hypevigilance, which looked like crazy violence to the teens who didn't know him or his backstory. We didn't get the insider look at it we are getting with Liam, though.

 

 

Yeah, that's a very good point.  It was never played specifically as if he was hypervigilant as part of a reaction to trauma, but it was a part of who he was and as we learned his history it's easy to see how it might be part of PTSD.  What Kate did could easily have made him the suspicious, watchful guy we meet in S1.   And really, the fact that he chose to live in the burnt-out shell of his family's old home could be related to PTSD, too.  (Although I also liked it just as an unusual thing about Derek.)  So something was there.  No one actually addressed it, but it was there, under the surface, as a part of him.  

 

Scratch the way I phrased it earlier.  I don't want the show to give anyone a PTSD story - I just want them to include evidence that the character is having some range of ongoing human reaction to the fact that there's been terrible trauma in the person's past (especially recent past), and that they're still carrying it.  

 

And that's what I wish they'd done with Stiles, I guess.  It didn't need to be an actual sub-plot, but some kind of symptoms/behaviors should have been evident.  Even if no one verbalized it.

 

 

but just a flinch at a mention of Allison, or some awkwardness at first with Scott and Lydia would have meant it's not all being swept under the rug.

 

 

Yeah, exactly like that!   I think the occasional subtle flinch at the right moment would've sold the point perfectly.   And DO as an actor is capable of that kind of subtlety to communicate the fact.  It's just that the show didn't bother to work anything like that into the season.  

 

(Mini rant:  I don't count his conversation with Malia the night of the full moon, because that wasn't about Stiles dealing with trauma - it was just an excuse for connecting him and Malia.  And I don't fault them for wanting to do that - but they sacrificed Stiles along the way, and I do fault them for that.  Stiles deserved better, and honestly, so did Malia if she's supposed to be major player.  And why does she still get no character development?  Half the time she's a punchline, and the rest of the time she's a miracle-mystery-solver.  Recast her adoptive dad and give her some scenes with him.  This show does some of its best work when it involves parent-child interactions, and there's a wealth of good stuff there, between guilt issues and reconnecting after being separated for years, and throwing Peter into the mix.  Why isn't that the storyline we get for her this season, instead of her ridiculous math problems because she's inexplicably in Lydia's class? I don't want to hate her, but they're not giving me any reason to care about her.  Okay, rant over.)

 

What we're getting with Liam seems to be the show's attempt to demonstrate that Liam is traumatized, but it's playing out wrong.  I don't feel like I'm seeing Liam as someone who's been traumatized.  I'm just seeing Liam as someone who has symptoms of PTSD assigned to his character as a plot point, hence the berserker visions.  I don't feel it the way I do with other characters who've suffered.  

 

It doesn't have to be major, like Lydia in S2 and part of S3 (although HR sold the hell out of her scenes back then, and I don't think DS is experienced enough to pull off something like that).  But I should feel it.  I should care that Liam is traumatized.  Heck, I felt for him back when Scott and Stiles had him tied up in the bathtub.  But nothing's happened since then to make me care about him, and I've wanted to - he's Scott's beta and I keep expecting and hoping for that to be a significant thing for both of them to deal with.  But... nothing.

 

Grrrgh.  There are so many things that are falling flat this season with regard to characters having layers.  And I know the show is capable of better than this, so it's extremely frustrating.  Thinking about what Lydia went through with Peter in S2, I can then think back to S3b (I think it was 3b, anyway), and there's a scene when Allison and Lydia go to see Peter.  And as they turn to leave, Allison takes Lydia's hand.  It's such a little thing to fit into the scene, but it says a world about the characters, their relationship, everything.  That's the kind of thing this show did well in the past, and I don't understand why it can't do it anymore.  

 

Where did the character and relationship development go?  It's even becoming rare this season between Scott and Stiles, and that should be the heart of the show.  

 

So I don't think that the writers giving Liam PTSD means they care about his character more than they care about other characters who've been through even worse traumas.

 

 

I agree.  And it's sad, because all it means is that they want it for a plot.  They're not doing anything for character development for anyone this season.

Edited September 6, 2014 by ElleryAnne

[Bruinsfan]

I'm actually  glad they dialed back from the All About Stiles treatment of Season 3b. I'm tuning in to watch Teen Wolf, not Teen Amateur Detective Who Also Sometimes Hangs Out with Werewolves, and the amount of focus lavished on the main character's sidekick last year rankled. Of course, I would have preferred more moments of those two being best buds/partners in crime rather than having them separated into storylines that rarely cross.

 

I definitely agree about the problems with focus being spread among too many new characters. While I've liked what they've done with Liam so far, Parrish and Malia seem to be getting a  bigger slice of the narrative than they've earned (though I do like both characters and think they have potential), Kira's treatment isn't living up to the promise she showed in 3B (which was a textbook case of how to introduce a new character right), and Brett and the rest of Satomi's pack of helpless redshirts just seem like wastes of space.

Edited September 6, 2014 by Bruinsfan

[Yitzhak]

I'm actually  glad they dialed back from the All About Stiles treatment of Season 3b. I'm tuning in to watch Teen Wolf, not Teen Amateur Detective Who Also Sometimes Hangs Out with Werewolves, and the amount of focus lavished on the main character's sidekick last year rankled. Of course, I would have preferred more moments of those two being best buds/partners in crime rather than having them separated into storylines that rarely cross.

 

I felt like the Nogitsune arc was a strong storyline for Scott too though. It's always good drama for the hero if you take his sidekick away from him or turn his sidekick against him (we got a mix of both in Nogitsune story). I'd say that 3b wasn't so much All About Stiles as it was Dylan dominated because they had him playing two roles. But I didn't feel like Scott was on the backburner in 3b as much as it has felt like Stiles has been on the backburner in S4. And I agree that the show is best when they show Scott & Stiles working together. There was a lot of the Scott & Stiles duo in early S4 but they haven't really interacted since mid-season and it does feel like the show is missing something.

 

It looks like Stiles will be leading the mission to rescue Scott in Mexico, but I worry that they'll be emphasizing the romantic pairings (or Scott/Liam) in the finale rather than the core friendship.   

Edited September 7, 2014 by Yitzhak