Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[BkWurm1]

Well I think that her need to be needed is maybe very specific to Team Arrow. With them she found a home and a family, so when that place is endangered (2x14/3x15) she feels threatened and act out. I haven't seen her act like this with anyone else (Cooper, her mother) even with Ray she slept with him I think not because he needed her but because Oliver/Diggle made her feel like they didn't need her. Before that she was helping Ray rather reluctantly.

Hmm, I can see that.  Where she felt the need to prove her worth to the team ... even when she was the only one questioning it.  And with Ray, her feeling close to him because she wasn't feeling the inclusion or appreciation from her team.   I'm sure it's wrapped up in part with her Dad leaving and part of her unrealistically wondering what she could have done to make him want to stay.  

Edited April 10, 2015 by BkWurm1

[statsgirl]

Felicity is a strange combination of strength and insecurity.  When Walter called her to his office in 1x04, she assumed that it was because he was going to fire her and had her speech all prepared to show him how wrong he was.  Another person, getting a call from The Big Boss, would have thought it was because she was going to get promoted or for special praise.

 

I don't know if the show will ever address the cost to Felicity of Oliver pushing her away not only from him but also from Team Arrow this season but they should.  In The Offer, she says that being around him makes her happy, and belonging to Team Arrow does too.  She was probably excluded from other girls' games in school (super smart, lacking social skills, embarrassing mother so she couldn't invite other people home, turns to Goth look in college) and probably fairly lonely. With Oliver and Diggle and later Sara and Roy, she found a kind of family that she had never had before so that when Oliver pushed her away, it hurt even more.

 

I'm hoping that's why she became so needy and clingy with Ray, because here was someone who appreciated her, until he didn't in ep 317.  I fanwank that by them, she was too desperate to hold on to a relationship that she was determined to make work no matter what it took.

 

Imagine you were the showrunners in March 2012, producing the pilot. You have conceptualized a years long narrative in which the hero's Love Interest is INCREDIBLY important to his journey. Vital. This is The Odyssey ffs, Oliver just stayed out at sea even after he got home.

Now imagine shooting the pilot, and realizing over the course of that production (and having this grow every moment thereafter) that your female lead absolutely cannot be your Penelope. She cannot. She can't do it. It doesn't matter why. What matters is that the structure of your entire show depended upon the hero being in love with one woman, who represented Home to him, and his journey was going to be about finally coming in out of the cold and coming Home.

What the actual fuck are you going to do? Holy shit. It's not like you can just come up with a new Penelope next season. This Hero's Journey has been GUTTED. You need a Penelope YESTERDAY.

Then in 103, your Penelope appears, and you grab on with both hands and start negotiating and plotting. It takes a long time to work out the details and set this ship back on course. You have to position your Penelope where she was supposed to be all along. That is no small feat, especially when you consider that your plan was to never do any positioning AT ALL. It was all supposed to be backstory.

I've been thinking, and this idea makes me happy.  For one thing, it explains why Felicity suddenly got drawn into Walter's orbit with the hunt for information on Moira's notebook and the missing cash (the EPs wanted to keep her around just in case but didn't have room in Oliver's current story arc), and it also makes me feel better about the intelligence of the EPs.  They may still hold on with a death grip to their view of Laurel/BC, but at least they knew it wasn't going to work for Oliver's OTP.

 

The same thing annoyed me to no end in s1. The guy seemed to fall in love with every girl he slept with (apart from Isabel). He's so desperate for a connection it cheapened even more his supposed love for Laurel. Don't get me started on  2x16 (the first suicide squad episode) where he was pushing away Sara then crying when he admitted he was scared to death to lose her. First it made it look like he never loved Laurel and made it hard for a lot of persons to buy the love confession to Felicity 7 episodes later. The fact that he would sleep with a lot of girls never annoyed me, it was more the "what we have is so special" thing. I know you can care about a lot of persons and have special bonds with a lot of persons, but it makes it hard to believe Oliver when he makes those statements. What's so special about Felicity this time? 2 years ago Laurel was the most important person in his life (more than Thea?!) and the one person who knew him better than anyone (better than Tommy?). I guess we're supposed to think he was delusional (too much Island herbs?).

I think he was too  immature emotionally.  His parents marriage was based on his mother looking away during his father's infidelities and most of us seek to replicate our parents' marriage, whether we know it or not, just as we replicate our parents' parenting styles.

 

What they showed me of Oliver and Laurel in the flashbacks was so dysfunctional that it never looked to me like he loved her, he only held on to belief that he did.

 

The "Laurel knows him best" lines in both seasons 1 and 2 never made any sense to me because he was lying to her and hiding things from her the whole time.  I have no idea why they were in there, unless it was to show that both Oliver and Laurel were delusional about their relationship.

[lemotomato]

So my question is beyond the comics reason, what is the current rationale that L/O shippers are using that L/O should be together over any other pairing? I mean I want to hear their side of the story. Because I honestly don't see O/L being together romantically at this point for any other valid reason than comics. And even that reason does not hold up well because, comics are always changing. I'm not saying there is never the potential that seasons down the road the writers may change their minds. But as of right now, I can't really see them being romantically together. Does anyone know what they O/L supporters use as their reasons?

@ostentatious covered most of the reasons pretty thoroughly, although from my observations, I think it's more like 60% because comics!, 20% bringing up stuff that happened in season 1, 10% because KC is the female lead and SA is the male lead so of course they have to end up together, and 10% finding subtext in their current interactions. For example, they loved the scene in 3x18 where Laurel jumps off the building an Oliver catches her, because it's a sign of her total trust in him and his acceptance of her as a partner. Which... okay, I guess it can be interpreted that way. What I find more of a stretch is when they try to justify the times when Oliver was dismissive/disapproving of her as BC as him being tough on her because he... admires her toughness and sees her as an equal, so he doesn't treat her with kid gloves like he does with Felicity.

 

Another reason I've seen repeated is that Oliver and Laurel have both been through the trauma of losing loved ones, are both "dark", and are both vigilantes, so they make more sense together than Oliver with happy, innocent, non-combatant Felicity. Actually a lot of Lauriver arguments end with "... better than Felicity" which is indicative of how poorly it stands on its own merits.

[Password]

Another reason I've seen repeated is that Oliver and Laurel have both been through the trauma of losing loved ones, are both "dark", and are both vigilantes, so they make more sense together than Oliver with happy, innocent, non-combatant Felicity. Actually a lot of Lauriver arguments end with "... better than Felicity" which is indicative of how poorly it stands on its own merits.

I've heard this argument a few times actually. Even on the Afterbuzz TV show they mentioned that Felicity and Oliver are incompatible because Oliver should be with a fighter. Someone who is like him and understands the dangers they face.

It's interesting because what some would call compatibility, I call toxicity. The absolute last thing Oliver needs is someone "like him" surely? Even at this very moment he pushes his loved ones away, makes unilateral decisions, has poor leadership skills and is as closed up as a clam. Someone like Oliver would be a terrible idea. Equating fighting skills with strength of character is IMO a flawed way of thinking. Oliver isn't here to stay the same, and that's exactly what would happen in a relationship with someone "like" him.

It also reduces Felicity into a wilting Marie when what we've been shown is she is mentally tough and can handle herself. Choosing to be happy and positive when things are rough is a healthy way of living. Dwelling on the pain and not grasping life is not. Not to mention sweeping aside everything Felicity has endured whilst being on Team Arrow and that she has her own woman pain to deal with (guilt from Cooper's death). She even had the issue of dead loved ones returning.

I'm tempted to say that guy on Afterbuzz is a 'because comics' person but I don't want to brush his opinions aside. I guess it depends on what we actually expect from Oliver's emotional growth throughout the course of the show.

I agree with @BkWurm1 that Oliver's perception needs to change, not his character. Felicity was very happy to date his man paining behind even after he pushed her away because that's who she wants. She knows his flaws but loves him anyway, so when Oliver pushes her away because he thinks he can't be with her, it must be frustrating as all get out.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Password

[wonderwall]

To say that Oliver should be with a fighter is a completely shallow/two dimensional argument because it makes no sense. For Oliver, finding someone compatible has more to it than just being with someone who's a fighter. Yes, Laurel is learning  how to fight, but what else is there that makes her good for him? Because I certainly can't find another reason. Some people say that Laurel doesn't take Oliver's shit and she calls him out, well that's good. But what this distinction fails to acknowledge is that Oliver barely ever listens when Laurel calls him out. And isn't that what's most important? For two people to affect each other on that level which Laurel fails to do.

 

To say that Felicity doesn't understand the dangers Oliver faces is highly fallacious and just plain wrong. She KNOWS all of this because she's in the same fight Oliver is in because Oliver always talks to her about his failures, his motivations, his plans, his worries, his fears, etc. Felicity simply knows Oliver better. 

 

Even though Oliver doesn't really know this right now, he's more than just a person who goes out at night and fights crime. Oliver doesn't need a fighter to be with romantically, he needs someone who understands him, who makes him want to be better for, who he admires and respects, who brings out a ligher side to him. And that person ain't Laurel and never will be. Being a fighter is like a skill. Just because Laurel has that in common with him does't make her a better match. 

 

What a ridiculous/short sighted/ poorly developed argument.

Edited April 10, 2015 by wonderwall

[lemotomato]

I've heard this argument a few times actually. Even on the Afterbuzz TV show they mentioned that Felicity and Oliver are incompatible because Oliver should be with a fighter. Someone who is like him and understands the dangers they face.

It's interesting because what some would call compatibility, I call toxicity. The absolute last thing Oliver needs is someone "like him" surely? Even at this very moment he pushes his loved ones away, makes unilateral decisions, has poor leadership skills and is as closed up as a clam. Someone like Oliver would be a terrible idea. Equating fighting skills with strength of character is IMO a flawed way of thinking. Oliver isn't here to stay the same, and that's exactly what would happen in a relationship with someone "like" him.

It also reduces Felicity into a wilting Marie when what we've been shown is she is mentally tough and can handle herself. Choosing to be happy and positive when things are rough is a healthy way of living. Dwelling on the pain and not grasping life is not.

I'm tempted to say that guy on Afterbuzz is a 'because comics' person but I don't want to brush his opinions aside. I guess it depends on what we actually expect from Oliver's emotional growth throughout the course of the show.

When people use "they're the same, so they should be together" as justification for character pairings, I wonder if they've ever watched TV or seen a movie with a romantic couple, ever. The most enduring couples have been opposites that complement each other-- Han Solo and Leia, Mulder and Scully, etc. Oliver with Laurel because they're both "dark" would be just as boring story-wise as Ray and Felicity together because they're both smart and awkward. What might make sense in real life does not make for entertaining TV.

Edited April 10, 2015 by lemotomato

[Password]

When people use "they're the same, so they should be together" as justification for character pairings, I wonder if they've ever watched TV or seen a movie with a romantic couple, ever. The most enduring couples have been opposites that complement each other-- Han Solo and Leia, Mulder and Scully, etc. Oliver with Laurel because they're both "dark" would be just as boring story-wise as Ray and Felicity together because they're both smart and awkward. What might make sense in real life does not make for entertaining TV.

It reaches even further than "smart and awkward" should be together IMO. Do these people actually add to each other's lives for the better? Laurel and Oliver do nothing but antagonise and irritate each other over everything. We've already discussed that Felicity becomes a sort of lesser version of herself around Ray. These are not good, regardless of real life sense.

[CabotCove]

Some people say that Laurel doesn't take Oliver's shit and she calls him out, well that's good. But what this distinction fails to acknowledge is that Oliver barely ever listens when Laurel calls him out. And isn't that what's most important? For two people to affect each other on that level which Laurel fails to do.

Well to be fair its not like Oliver is always listening to Felicity either is it, he is a stubborn ass and this season especially he has been on another level. He has hurt Felicity by dismissing her views/feelings/ideas, whether thats for  good reasons or not, to another person its still hurts, feels offensive and can shake their self esteem. Yes they are many positives about Olicity, but to me they are also some commonalities with the way he treats Felicity and other women, negatively. That tells me that its the guy that has serious issues, not the woman or the relationship. What makes it worse with Olicity for me is that they are hailed as the "healthy relationship", they had a chance to start on a clean blank page, the opportunity to keep bathing in the light yet the show still chooses & craves for  this somewhat toxic path. And we are only in what, season 3, the first year of a real Olicity romance. How am I supposed to have confidence in how they write this ship for the next 3-5 seasons or more. Jmo.

 

Anyway yeah Oliver is very dismissing and disrespectful of Laurel, someone mentioned that scene in the hallway in 2x14 and how it was a WTF, considering how Oliver was not even chasing Laurel for a long time (bad writing really) and also threw her drug problem in her face. He was a big time jerk and has been to Laurel especially, I dont care how for the most part he respect Felicity when he acts like that to other people, a lead character or a person really shouldn't be such a jerk. Someone like that is not how I picture a character like Felicity wanting and being happy with, someone who acts terrible to other women/people but acts mostly proper with her. I don't see Felicity being happy with such a double personality, Oliver needs to change the way he treats Laurel (or anyone) if he wont do it for Laurel or himself at least he should do it for Felicity. Do it for his future with Felicity or his future children, because his doings right now,  is really no way to live or lead by example Imo.

 

It reaches even further than "smart and awkward" should be together IMO.

 

I dont see how its any different than only ever appreciating "opposite attracts", they are both limiting concepts Imo. I think that its Ok for one to be more inclined to like either "opposite attracts" or "Birds of a feather" type of love stories, to me that doesn't mean that every story has to be like that. IMO its a matter of personal perception and preferences, one trope/concept is not automatically better than the other & in every situation, from my pov.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Conell

[lemotomato]

Well to be fair its not like Oliver is always listening to Felicity either is it, he is a stubborn ass and this season especially he has been on another level. He has hurt Felicity by dismissing her views/feelings/ideas, whether thats for  good reasons or not, to another person its still hurts, feels offensive and can shake their self esteem. Yes they are many positives about Olicity, but to me they are also some commonalities with the way he treats Felicity and other women, negatively. That tells me that its the guy that has serious issues, not the woman or the relationship. What makes it worse with Olicity for me is that they are hailed as the "healthy relationship", they had a chance to start on a clean blank page, the opportunity to keep bathing in the light yet the show still chooses & craves for  this somewhat toxic path. And we are only in what, season 3, the first year of a real Olicity romance. How am I supposed to have confidence in how they write this ship for the next 3-5 seasons or more. Jmo.

Well, I would hope that in the next 3-5 seasons Oliver is going to grow and learn and not still be just a guy with "serious issues". He's had his head up his butt this season, but he's not going to be that way forever, and neither of them have done anything irreparable to each other, so I don't see how Olicity angst now means they can't get better in the future.

Edited April 10, 2015 by lemotomato

[wonderwall]

Well to be fair its not like Oliver is always listening to Felicity either is it, he is a stubborn ass and this season especially he has been on another level. 

 

I think Oliver listens to Felicity and Diggle most of the time and on things not regarding Malcolm (why Oliver would ever listen to Malcolm is beyond me and I'm completely 100% behind Felicity when she called him out on this) but he has never once ever really listened to Laurel (which says a lot). 

 

Oliver and Felicity have had a rough ride this year. He hurt her, she hurt him. I suppose in the end it's how they overcome their mistakes and whether they will hold those mistakes over each others shoulders in an unhealthy manner (of which I don't believe any of them have). 

 

I hate how Oliver has hurt Felicity by dismissing her this season. I won't defend him about that. But I can see where he's coming from. Oliver is running away from himself, and who makes him feel like a person more than Felicity? Stupid plot. 

 

I never really said that there was nothing wrong with Olicity though. They have their issues. Felicity and Oliver are both stubborn, they are on different pages in their lives right now (I like to believe Oliver is slowly catching up to Felicity). Oliver and Felicity still need to grow as individuals and learn how to treat people right. Yes Felicity too because she tends to say the cruelest things under harsh conditions (and even with the circumstances it's not right). No couple is ever perfect. But at least they're compatible in the sense that their personalities sort of raise each other up. 

 

I'm a fool, though. I still believe that O/F could have the most healthy relationship. It's their individual issues that are causing problems (Malcolm, Oliver not knowing how to treat the women in his life (which Felicity touched upon in episode 12)). Their relationship right now is not healthy because they keep pushing each other away.

 

Oliver isn't always going to be like this. He's going to grow as a character (at least I hope he does). To say he's going to be the same in future seasons would be incorrect because we simply don't know. This is why I'm optimistic for a future relationship between O/F because clearly they won't be dating by the end of this season. I'm guessing mid season 4. 

[CabotCove]

Well, I would hope that in the next 3-5 seasons Oliver is going to grow and learn and not still be just a guy with "serious issues". He's had his head up his butt this season, but he's not going to be that way forever, and neither of them have done anything irreparable to each other, so I don't see how Olicity angst now means they can't get better in the future.

 

Yeah I get you, being fair Im not closing the door that things will get better for Olicity/Oliver in future, because who knows the future right. But at the same time there are no guarantees that it  will actually be better or that it will go the way that we think it will, and am also wary about how most TV shows tend to have a depreciation value over the seasons/years, these early years are likely the golden days and easiest ones for great writing. Baggage will likely pile up over seasons, characters and plots will likely get more complicated, the writing will likely stink more. So with that calculated speculation and deduction in mind, I personally cant be too hopeful of upcoming seasons when they are failing during what I would call the "easy days" . I am carefully hopeful but not too optimistic, personally.

 

I never really said that there was nothing wrong with Olicity though.

 

I didnt mean to imply that you did. Sorry if I did.

 

I'm a fool, though. I still believe that O/F could have the most healthy relationship.

 

I dont think you are, I dont know how I feel about the couples' healthy status rankings right now, but I think its a matter of personal perception.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Conell

[nksarmi]

Well I think that her need to be needed is maybe very specific to Team Arrow. With them she found a home and a family, so when that place is endangered (2x14/3x15) she feels threatened and act out. I haven't seen her act like this with anyone else (Cooper, her mother) even with Ray she slept with him I think not because he needed her but because Oliver/Diggle made her feel like they didn't need her. Before that she was helping Ray rather reluctantly.

I was thinking of the flashback we got of her in college - when she loved the idea of being part of this "movement." Yes, she drew a line when it violated her moral code - but it did work for her for awhile.

 

Then we see her with Walter and she was like "I am the best you've got" which could be a matter of professional pride, but I also think at that point in her life - she got a lot of validation by being necessary to her company.  I also think a lot of her affection for Walter and her being upset when she realized Moira was lying to him about some things (like the missing money that led Walter to the Gambit) was about her enjoying the fact that Walter needed her.

 

We definitely saw her getting upset about Sara maybe supplanting her on the team/with Oliver in season two.

 

And I do think a lot of the appeal of Ray is how much he made it a point to show her he needed her.  I know people have picked it apart here as him being stalkerish/creepy/her being a pod person around him, etc... But I think if you look at it all in total and identify this as a weakness of Felicity's - the appeal of Ray to her makes a lot more sense.

 

Honestly, none of this makes me like her less - though I might have preferred if they didn't write her this way. But I do think it's what we have been shown.

[nksarmi]

I think rather or not olicity gets better will depend on IF the writers realize what they are doing now and want to make it better.  I mean, it kind of goes back to what we are debating about Laurel and Oliver in season one.  Were they writing them in that toxic way on purpose?  Did they mean to sink the GA+BC ship right from the start?  If so, they did a great job!  If they meant to keep Oliver and Laurel alive as a possibility, boy did they mess up.

 

I can't see why anyone would want them together now - Oliver is a jerk to Laurel (and possibly more so to Laurel than anyone else on the show!). Besides the fact that if they ever got back together, there would be the ghosts of Tommy and Sara hanging over their heads - its also clear that as much as Oliver once idolized Laurel, he has zero respect for her.  Not in the past (or he would have just told her he didn't want to move in together/wanted to break up rather than cheat with Sara) and definitely not in the present.  And I do not think that will change if BC remains a part of Team Arrow.  He will always treat her like a sidekick - not a partner.  I really hope they separate her story from Team Arrow a bit next season because as annoying as her character can be - I don't enjoy it when he is a condescending jerk to her.

 

So back to Oliver and Felicity.  The question can also be raised by how the writers view Felicity and Ray.  Did they mean to write Felicity and Ray as two people trying to fill holes in their hearts left by other people?  Or did they think they were writing a good alternative romance for Felicity?  If they wrote the flaws into their relationship on purpose to explain later how Ray can be friends with Oliver (which I believe will happen) and to highlight how much Felicity really does love Oliver - then great.  But if they didn't realize they were writing those flaws, then oh crap.

 

I do believe - and hope - that Oliver can get better and therefore so can olicity.  But for this to happen, I think the writers have to pair them up and make them a couple and let them only face external obstacles to their relationship.  If they try to keep them separated by contrivance and angst - I think the writers will sink the ship and likely ruin one or both characters while at it.

[quarks]

a lead character or a person really shouldn't be such a jerk.

 

 

In general, no. On television, well....television disagrees with you; jerks sell.

 

On this particular show, I think Arrow has given plenty of reasons why Oliver acts like a jerk - he grew up spoiled, indulged and whiny, and then went through five years of hell.  I think he's somewhat improving, but it's a slow process, not helped by his decision this season to let the guy who brainwashed his sister sleep on his sister's couch, my own choice for least understandable decision for the season. (Closely followed by Ra's "Yes, I shall pick the guy who let a large, multi million dollar company slip from his hands and who has vowed not to kill anyone as the new leader of the League of Assassins."  Ra's, apart from all of the other many, many, many issues here, surely the head of a league of assassins should be pro-killing? Anyway.)

 

On a few other notes:

 

Was Oliver totally fine with Felicity dating Ray? Nope. He was jealous. But, and this is big - he had plenty of opportunities to stop that, or at least ask her to reconsider, and he didn't. During "The Offer," he didn't ask Felicity to leave Ray - and it was pretty obvious that if he had, she would have dumped Ray immediately.  During "Suicidal Tendencies," he initially said that Ray was a good guy, and that he just wanted Felicity to be happy. Even post the Ray robot suit reveal, Oliver was the one to try to patch up Ray and Felicity's relationship.  It's almost as if the guy knew that the Arrow writers believe that viewers have to be shown that both Felicity and Oliver could be with other people and therefore really are choosing each other when/if they do.

 

I don't think it was as clear when the show first aired, but if you rewatch the first season, yes, it does become clear that the show abandoned the long term idea of Oliver/Laurel fairly early on.  I don't, for the record, think it was just an issue of chemistry, or even the backstory from hell: the larger problem was, as I've noted elsewhere, the initial setup: Oliver as a vigilante outside the law and Laurel as a lawyer inside the law. That meant that for Oliver to be needed, Laurel had to be incompetent/fail - and after too much of that, the question is, ok, why is Oliver even bothering with her, and how good a lawyer can she be?  (Contrast Forever, which is not a great show, but which solved the problem of the hypercompetent hero who can solve all murders by having him work with the police, but not be an actual cop - meaning that he does need the police to make arrests, invite him to crime scenes, and so on, and the police need him because he's hypercompetent.)  It's one reason why the show ended up hastily abandoning the idea of both of them pursuing criminals. 

 

During the first season, all of two characters on the show voice anything positive about the Oliver/Laurel relationship: Helena and Tommy, towards the end of the season, when the producers realized that they had to give viewers a payoff for the expectations for Oliver/Laurel made at the beginning of the season, before moving on to Oliver/Felicity - something they've said in interviews. In the fifth episode, Moira told Laurel all kinds of nice things including the claim that Oliver was smitten with Laurel, as part of an effort to get Laurel to be Oliver's attorney. So, we have positive statements from a woman with a questionable grip on reality, a self described desperate woman known to be a manipulator, and a character needing to set up a plot twist.

 

Otherwise, nearly every character in the show - including characters who never met Laurel, like Yao Fei (and later Shado), explicitly go out of their way, episode after episode, to remind us, again and again, just how awful Oliver was to Laurel and just why Laurel should never get together with Oliver and why Oliver clinging to Laurel is dangerous for Oliver.  Even Thea brings this up when suggesting that Oliver contact Laurel. We get this from Joanna, Diggle, Felicity, Quentin, Dinah, Yao Fei, Slade, various villains, and Oliver and Laurel themselves.  It's why viewers keep saying that the Oliver/Laurel relationship is dysfunctional - the show keeps making that same point. 

 

Meanwhile, partly because of that plot issue of lawyer vs. vigilante, from episode 5 onwards Laurel becomes increasingly more marginalized. Her screentime for most episodes got drastically reduced, with her role as the second lead character essentially replaced by Diggle; Diggle, Helena, Felicity and Tommy all found out Oliver's secret/entered the Arrow Cave before she did (and as I've discussed elsewhere, from a comic book point of view, the Helena and Felicity introductions are crucial: the biggest sign that Felicity was moving into the position of main love interest is that she was the first woman to join Team Arrow.) By the end of the season, Laurel was the only main character with no involvement in the Undertaking plot at all and no clue that anything was even happening. Even Tommy, who didn't know what his father was planning and wasn't part of the Team Arrow investigation, got interviewed by Quentin as part of that investigation; even Roy and Thea, very much secondary characters at that point, were investigating the Dark Archer. Even minor secondary characters like the police tech guy had more involvement.  Laurel is wandering around wondering what Oliver really thinks about her.

 

And in a final note, Laurel is the only major character in the finale except for Fyers and Malcolm who does not make a major self sacrifice or risk her life to save others. Even in the DVD scene, she's just saving files. Moira goes to jail to save everyone in the Glades; Thea rescues Roy; Roy rescues the people on the bus; Quentin and Felicity work to stop the earthquake device; Tommy dies saving Laurel; Oliver and Diggle get badly wounded trying to stop Malcolm; Shado, Slade and Oliver all risk their lives to stop the plane from crashing.  Even Fyers and Malcolm end up risking more/sacrificing more to achieve their goals, and although Fyers is clearly working just for the money and isn't trying to make the world into a better place by crashing the Chinese economy, we later find out that although Fyers doesn't seem to know this, the plane crash plan does also involve trying to stop a terrorist in typical "Amanda Waller Complete Overkill and Destroying Innocent People Along the Way" style (Amanda Waller, worst person on the show).

 

And then there's Laurel.

 

This is when I wish the TWOP archives were still available, because I could point to posts that were initially very eager and excited to see Katie Cassidy in the role - a number of viewers said they were specifically tuning in to see her - followed by posts written right after the pilot aired where viewers didn't much like Laurel, but hoped she'd improve, to "Laurel is the worst" by episode 7 and 8.  

 

Followed by multiple posts written after the finale when multiple people, including me, asked what on earth the writers were doing?  They had, after all, managed to redeem two other initially disliked characters - Thea and Tommy, and let them be heroes in the finale. (It's hard to remember now, but Tommy was not initially popular, thanks largely to his introduction as a somewhat slimy, privileged billionaire who had never worked a day in his life. Thea often came across as a spoiled brat, and several viewers had pretty harsh things to say about her.) So why not Laurel?  Why have another character die on her behalf? Why cut the scene that sorta explained why she was even there rescuing files in the first place?  Why have her deliberately fail to listen to three separate characters telling her to get out of /stay out of the Glades? Why not show her helping her clients pack up belongings and leave, or driving a bus to get people out of the Glades?  (Something that got repeated the following year, when the show had Sara running into buildings rescuing adorable children from fires while Laurel stood in the street.) 

 

In retrospect?  I think the show wanted to make sure that we weren't perceiving Oliver and Laurel as equals who were worthy of each other - adding yet another nail to the Oliver/Laurel column.

 

And what's remarkable is that apart from "Guilty" this year, which did have some slightly shippy Oliver/Laurel moments, and I guess this "I have so much trust in Oliver, I'll just jump off this building without a rope" bit from this last episode, we have a third season continuing to hammer home the problems with Oliver/Laurel. Despite the Oliver/Felicity issues, I can point to several moments this season where he's been emotionally supportive of Felicity (more than Ray has, really). With Laurel, it's been a continued trainwreck of lies and misunderstandings, and that's before I get into the not so small problem that his agreeing to go along with Laurel's "let's not talk about Sara/let's impersonate Sara" plan means that he's now lost his hard fought relationship with the cops, leading to his arrest just as the League of Assassins is attacking the city.  Laurel and Felicity have actually been more emotionally supportive of each other this season, despite much less history and no real reason to be friends.  (For that matter, I think Laurel has been more emotionally supportive of Felicity than Ray has, but that's a slightly separate argument.)

 

So yeah, I think the general plan here is to try to hammer home that Oliver and Laurel are not a thing. That doesn't, of course, mean that all viewers are going to be convinced. 

[looptab]

Great points. You see, the thing about the other characters telling how awful L/O are, I saw it more as a set up for an 'Against all odds'- 'Us against the world'- 'No one can understand this great epic love between us' type of thing. That's why I'm a little skeptic about this. But I like your interpretation more :)

[tv echo]

[T]he larger problem was, as I've noted elsewhere, the initial setup: Oliver as a vigilante outside the law and Laurel as a lawyer inside the law.

*  *  *

Meanwhile, partly because of that plot issue of lawyer vs. vigilante, from episode 5 onwards Laurel becomes increasingly more marginalized.

Great analysis, quarks, although I'm not sure I agree that the lawyer vs. vigilante issue was the major issue for Oliver and Laurel.  Now Laurel is both lawyer and vigilante herself, and she apparently has no problem with that inherent hypocrisy.  I would put more weight on the toxic back story and lack of chemistry,  But perhaps I am misunderstanding your point.

 

I always had a problem with the whole Laurel knowing Oliver better than anyone and always seeing the good or better him even pre-island, when she was almost the last to know that Oliver is the Hood/Arrow (and then she had to be told).  

Edited April 10, 2015 by tv echo

[ostentatious]

I've been thinking, and this idea makes me happy.  For one thing, it explains why Felicity suddenly got drawn into Walter's orbit with the hunt for information on Moira's notebook and the missing cash (the EPs wanted to keep her around just in case but didn't have room in Oliver's current story arc), and it also makes me feel better about the intelligence of the EPs.  They may still hold on with a death grip to their view of Laurel/BC, but at least they knew it wasn't going to work for Oliver's OTP.

 

If you look at the timelines, so many decisions about Felicity and how she and Oliver were relating to each other were already written or filmed before 103 even aired. Everything with Walter. "Personal internet researcher for Oliver Queen" (which incidentally was where she was introduced to Diggle, and Diggle was introduced to observing Oliver and Felicity's reactions to each other (and having Diggle reacting to their interaction - cutting in those shots - instructs the audience to follow along with Diggle), "You're remarkable/thank you for remarking on it" (It is also the first time the connection between their hands is shown in closeup), when he hands off the arrow). Scavenger hunt/so no wine then (incidentally? The first time he touches her is in that scene -- and he touches her shoulder. It is also the first time the connection between their hands is shown in closeup, when he hands off the arrow). The cut from "you'll be ready for her" to Felicity? Long in the can by that time.

 

Look at that list. Before 103 aired, the following ongoing Olicity things had been established:

 

1. Diggle understanding more about what's going on with them than they do.

2. His admiration and appreciation of her abilities, and her response to that appreciation.

3. Shoulder touches. 

4. Their hands in closeup 

 

Which is a clear build to this:

 

 

 

You know what the first episode that entered preproduction AFTER 103 aired was?

 

VERTIGO. 

 

Yes, this:

 

 

Is the FIRST NEW INTERACTION they came up with after audiences and critics got the opportunity to respond to her/their relationship.

 

 

I've heard this argument a few times actually. Even on the Afterbuzz TV show they mentioned that Felicity and Oliver are incompatible because Oliver should be with a fighter. Someone who is like him and understands the dangers they face.

 

Yes, I have heard before that Felicity is just not his type because he likes fighters/tanks. Which...you know, the problem with "Because comics!" people isn't that they are obsessed with the comics, but that they don't even seem to watch the show. Laurel, Sara, Baby Mama, they were not tanks when he became involved with them. Sara turned into one much much later; Laurel is supposedly turning into one; Baby Mama presumably never will. Shado isn't just a *tank*, ffs, she is *capable* but she was a med student before she was abducted. Helena wasn't a tank yet, just trying. McKenna is the one who was a clear tank when he got involved with her, but he had known her in high school too. 

 

So, looking at that list, his type seems more like "brainy chicks" than tanks. Which makes so much sense for Oliver, both his character type and his actual behavior onscreen. There's a reason for all those high school AUs where he's flunking out and Felicity is his tutor. Oliver is the underachiever who admires overachievers. 

 

Also, regarding the baffling lack of flashbacks to establish L/O when as blixie said flashbacks are built into the show's DNA...isn't that a huge tell as well? I mean, they tell you very little info about L/O's relationship. This indicates to me that they probably did plan to use flashbacks to provide that, but so quickly realized they needed to extricate themselves from L/O that they pulled the plug on that. 

Edited April 10, 2015 by ostentatious

[CabotCove]

Look at that list. Before 103 aired, the following ongoing Olicity things had been established:

 

How do you know that 1.08+ were shot before 1.03 aired?, I may not remember than far back but currently Im watching The Flash show, I saw some episodes that aired before the midseason break  <1.09 being shot while the show  (The Flash) was already airing.

[ostentatious]

I think he was too  immature emotionally.  His parents marriage was based on his mother looking away during his father's infidelities and most of us seek to replicate our parents' marriage, whether we know it or not, just as we replicate our parents' parenting styles.

 

What they showed me of Oliver and Laurel in the flashbacks was so dysfunctional that it never looked to me like he loved her, he only held on to belief that he did.

 

I think it's really important to look at Moira and oddly enough Raisa (who was intended to be recurring, but got a gig on General Hospital). In the pilot they are clearly set up as these two extremes on the mother figure spectrum. Laurel is set up to represent both of them...cold, eternally disappointed like Moira, but by the end warm and convinced there's good in there like Raisa. She quickly became all Moira though.

 

I mean, it's a fact that Robert and Moira were overindulgent, gave him no responsibilities yet still managed to act disappointed when he turned out just like you'd expect him to...Moira was disappointed in her husband AND her son, and she probably thought Oliver was turning out just like her cheating husband. Over time the parallels between Moira and Laurel became stronger, as they moved Laurel out of the LI role. Then they start making it clear that yes, Laurel knew he was cheating on her, and yes, she (like Moira) was willing to stick it out for some reason (*cough cough $$$*). And Felicity has clearly taken over the position of being both Moira (boundaries, expectations) and Raisa (genuine belief in his goodness). Sorta funny that Raisa and Felicity were "staff."

 

Great points. You see, the thing about the other characters telling how awful L/O are, I saw it more as a set up for an 'Against all odds'- 'Us against the world'- 'No one can understand this great epic love between us' type of thing. That's why I'm a little skeptic about this. But I like your interpretation more :)

 

Well, I think this just shows that Laurel was among the contingencies. This was quite a tightrope they were walking, making sure multiple paths were available.

 

How do you know that 1.08+ were shot before 1.03 aired?, I may not remember than far back but currently Im watching The Flash show, I saw some episodes that aired before the midseason break  <1.09 being shot while the show  (The Flash) was already airing.

 

The preprod and filming dates are published on the Arrow Wikia. The cover pages of shooting scripts list the data. The only two S1 episodes that don't have that info listed are The Odyssey and Unfinished Business, but their dates can be estimated with a lot of accuracy since the dates of the preceding and successive eps are available.

 

I actually have a spreadsheet of the preprod, shooting, and airing dates that I'm referring to, but I pulled all the data from the Arrow Wikia.

Edited April 10, 2015 by ostentatious

[dtissagirl]

How do you know that 1.08+ were shot before 1.03 aired?, I may not remember than far back but currently Im watching The Flash show, I saw some episodes that aired before the midseason break  <1.09 being shot while the show  (The Flash) was already airing.

 

103 aired October 24. 108 filmed September 27 to October 5: https://twitter.com/mguggenheim/status/251128621417263104

[ostentatious]

103 aired October 24. 108 filmed September 27 to October 5: https://twitter.com/mguggenheim/status/251128621417263104

 

103 Lone Gunmen Airs 10/24/2012 10/24/2012

102 Honor Thy Father Airs 10/17/2012 10/17/2012

111 Trust But Verify Prep 10/22/2012 10/30/2012

104 An Innocent Man Airs 10/31/2012 10/31/2012

111 Trust But Verify Shoot 11/2/2012 11/13/2012

105 Damaged Airs 11/7/2012 11/7/2012

112 Vertigo Prep 11/5/2012 11/14/2012

106 Legacies Airs 11/14/2012 11/14/2012

112 Vertigo Shoot 11/15/2012 11/26/2012

 

So you can see that all those conceits for Olicity were well established before audiences and critics got a look. 

 

All the audience and critics did was confirm what the producers already knew, and provided them ammo to make their case. 

 

113 Betrayal Prep 11/16/2012 11/26/2012

113 Betrayal Shoot 11/27/2012 12/6/2012

107 Muse Of Fire Airs 11/28/2012 11/28/2012

114 The Odyssey Prep 11/28/2012 12/7/2012

108 Vendetta Airs 12/5/2012 12/5/2012

114 The Odyssey Shoot 12/10/2012 1/4/2013

109 Years End Airs 12/12/2012 12/12/2012

115 Dodger Prep 12/10/2012 1/4/2013

115 Dodger Shoot 1/7/2013 1/16/2013

110 Burned Airs 1/8/2013 1/16/2013

116 Dead to Rights Prep 1/16/2013 1/16/2013

111 Trust But Verify Airs 1/23/2013 1/23/2013

116 Dead to Rights Shoot 1/17/2013 1/28/2013

117 The Huntress Returns Prep 1/18/2013 1/28/2013

117 The Huntress Returns Shoot 1/29/2013 2/7/2013

118 Salvation Prep 1/30/2013 2/7/2013

112 Vertigo Airs 1/30/2013 1/30/2013

113 Betrayal Airs 2/6/2013 2/6/2013

118 Salvation Shoot 2/8/2013 2/20/2013

114 The Odyssey Airs 2/13/2013 2/13/2013

115 Dodger Airs 2/20/2013 2/20/2013

119 Unfinished Business Prep 2/8/2013 2/20/2013

119 Unfinished Business Shoot 2/22/2013 3/4/2013

120 Home Invasion Prep 2/22/2013 3/4/2013

116 Dead to Rights Airs 2/27/2013 2/27/2013

120 Home Invasion Shoot 3/5/2013 3/14/2013

121 The Undertaking Prep 3/6/2013 3/14/2013

121 The Undertaking Shoot 3/15/2013 3/26/2013

117 The Huntress Returns Airs 3/20/2013 3/20/2013

122 Darkness on the Edge of Town Prep 3/18/2013 3/26/2013

122 Darkness on the Edge of Town Shoot 3/27/2013 4/8/2013

118 Salvation Airs 3/27/2013 3/27/2013

123 Sacrifice Prep 3/28/2013 4/8/2013

119 Unfinished Business Airs 4/3/2013 4/3/2013

123 Sacrifice Shoot 4/9/2013 4/18/2013

120 Home Invasion Airs 4/24/2013 4/24/2013

121 The Undertaking Airs 5/1/2013 5/1/2013

122 Darkness on the Edge of Town Airs 5/8/2013 5/8/2013

123 Sacrifice Airs 5/15/2013 5/15/2013

[dtissagirl]

The breaking/writing of each episode starts 3-4 weeks before prep week. So even before 103 aired, scripts for 111-113 were being written, and they were also breaking the next 2-3 episodes. All of this indicates that the decision to make Felicity an official part of Team Arrow [and a very serious contender for the Love Interest narrative role] in 114 was made before the audience ever saw her. It was all based on their internal feedback -- writers/EPs watching dailies, and network/studio/DC comics watching cuts of the episodes.

 

Also: both Guggenheim and Stephen have mentioned WB prez Peter Roth calling them after watching a cut of 103 and demand more Felicity, and learning from the EPs that they already had booked EBR for the next few episodes. This happened sometime in August, two months before the show premiered, almost 3 months before audiences saw Felicity.

 

Which is why whenever I see "fanservice" accusations wrt Felicity's ever expanding role, my first thought is always that the fan they were serving is the Warner Bros PRESIDENT.

Edited April 10, 2015 by dancingnancy

[kismet]

Thank you ostentatious for explaining where Raisa actually went! I figured it was a post-pilot change, I was hoping it was availability and not executive decision. If they had been able to keep her, I think they could have set up some nice maternal parallels. I really wish if they are bringing Bratva more to the forefront, they somehow find a way to bring the character of Raisa back. But I guess the Queen's no longer have a staff and there really is not current need for her. But it would be nice if they did some flashbacks with Oliver & her having nice childhood memories. I did like when they have SC flashbacks (esp young OQ) & not just wherever OQ happens to be.

Edited April 10, 2015 by kismet

[ostentatious]

Yeah, Raisa stood out to everyone because she was the only person in the pilot who didn't attack Oliver at all. Hope she comes back.

...whenever I see "fanservice" accusations wrt Felicity's ever expanding role, my first thought is always that the fan they were serving is the Warner Bros PRESIDENT.

*mic drop*

Edited April 10, 2015 by ostentatious

[BkWurm1]

I was thinking of the flashback we got of her in college - when she loved the idea of being part of this "movement." Yes, she drew a line when it violated her moral code - but it did work for her for awhile.

 

Then we see her with Walter and she was like "I am the best you've got" which could be a matter of professional pride, but I also think at that point in her life - she got a lot of validation by being necessary to her company.  I also think a lot of her affection for Walter and her being upset when she realized Moira was lying to him about some things (like the missing money that led Walter to the Gambit) was about her enjoying the fact that Walter needed her.

 

We definitely saw her getting upset about Sara maybe supplanting her on the team/with Oliver in season two.

 

And I do think a lot of the appeal of Ray is how much he made it a point to show her he needed her.  I know people have picked it apart here as him being stalkerish/creepy/her being a pod person around him, etc... But I think if you look at it all in total and identify this as a weakness of Felicity's - the appeal of Ray to her makes a lot more sense.

 

Honestly, none of this makes me like her less - though I might have preferred if they didn't write her this way. But I do think it's what we have been shown.

I guess in Felicity's college days I don't see her part of some group.  It was her, her boyfriend and his roommate.  She was doing something she believed in but when Cooper crossed a line, she shut him down and was upset at him and worried for him.   She wasn't doing something for the good of the group, but for the good of the cause and when that went sideways, she walked away from it and became a different person.

 

With Walter she specifically told Oliver she liked him because he was nice to her.   I think a case could be made that she was extra invested in what he wanted because he trusted her with a delicate job and sure I also think she took pride in being the best at what she did (even if it was well below her abilities) but again, I didn't get any sense that she needed to be needed.  She liked being appreciated, but she wasn't constructing her life around someone else needing her.

 

She wasn't inserting herself into Oliver's life offering to do upgrades, trying to make herself essential, she just did the job's he brought her (however bizarre) and accepted his thanks.  More than a need to be needed, I got the impression that she was kinda bored by her normal job. 

 

We see her pursuing info for Walter past what he asked her to do but we've also heard that she hates mysteries and when she goes further than Walter expects, he rebukes her for her trouble and tells her to drop it but since she is still tracking the same accounts a year later we know she didn't do that.  A need to be needed person IMO would not want to risk upsetting the person that needs her help. 

 

 She also takes it on herself to upgrade and organize Oliver's computers the first time she's down in the Lair, but rather than an audition for a job or trying to make herself needed,  she did it because it hurt her not to do it.  It was for her own sake that she acted.  

 

With Ray she takes pleasure in being appreciated and wanted more than I'd say she needs to be needed.  She took the job with Ray for her own reasons, not because he so desperately needed her to work for him.  Then when she did that file recovery thing that no one else considered possible, she takes her accolades in the form of a few days off rather than moving on to what he needs from her next.   Later when Ray's stumped and can't move forward because of some chip, she helps him not because she needs him to need her - he was doing that when she flat out refused to help - she helps because she believes she might be able to save him in a way she couldn't save Oliver.   She always has her own beliefs and reasons for what she does.

 

I think she needs a certain level of appreciation and respect and that was what Ray was giving her that she wasn't getting anymore in any large dose from Oliver and even the rest of the team.  When Diggle and Roy questioned her decision to save them rather than risk letting Brick's guys gun them down from the truck, she walked out.  They needed her but they wanted her to do it by their rules and that's not how she operates.  She's driven by her own understanding about what it right, and can't be easily compelled to go against her beliefs just because someone needs something from her. 

 

She can be swayed by emotional pleas, like when Oliver wanted to get Malcolm back from Nyssa and Felicity caved when Oliver made his case.  Need alone isn't enough. 

 

A needs to be needed person IMO wouldn't hesitate to do Laurel a favor or cave to doing things the way Diggle and Roy wanted her to.  Being asked for the favor is the favor to a needs to be needed person.    Felicity seriously sounded like she was considering NOT to help Laurel because that wasn't the kind of relationship they had. With Diggle and Roy, they didn't like how she was doing her job so she walked away.   In the end, she came back cause she believed it was the right thing to do not because she felt compelled to help like it's her life mission.

 

I absolutely think she enjoys being on the team and I think having her skills and judgment appreciated means a lot to her, but I find these things to be different than thinking Felicity is defined by needing other people to need her.  I think she is more self contained than that.  She likes to help, but she doesn't do it IMO to be needed, but because she believes in what she's doing or is invested with the person asking for her help.   

 

Her hanging on Ray is a different issue, over compensating for what is glaringly missing. 

[AyChihuahua]

She'd better be hanging all over Oliver next season, or the EPs are even more full of crap than I think (and right now I loathe everything about them).

[Password]

I'm not surprised Felicity is touchy touchy with Ray dog because she was very affectionate with Cooper. The room mate even mentioned something about them not having sex under covers like normal college goers (or something the like).

Though I do think it'll be quite...weird with Oliver. Only because Oliver is so stoic. I'm fully waiting to be proved wrong. If Oliver could be physically affectionate with her (his looks already kill us) I don't think I'd survive.

[steeledwithakiss]

It's true from what we've seen of Felicity she's really into PDA (the way she jumped and made out with Cooper before he was arrested and now with Ray). As for Oliver being stoic, well I'm sure nobody imagined Ray would be so little receptive when she's being like this with him. Maybe Oliver will surprise us. They were openly flirting in front of Roy and Diggle, and from their reactions it was not the first time.

[ostentatious]

I'm not surprised Felicity is touchy touchy with Ray dog because she was very affectionate with Cooper. The room mate even mentioned something about them not having sex under covers like normal college goers (or something the like).

Though I do think it'll be quite...weird with Oliver. Only because Oliver is so stoic. I'm fully waiting to be proved wrong. If Oliver could be physically affectionate with her (his looks already kill us) I don't think I'd survive.

 

God, I just had a vision of him treating her like his actual girlfriend and 'bout fainted.

[BkWurm1]

Maybe Oliver will surprise us. They were openly flirting in front of Roy and Diggle, and from their reactions it was not the first time.

 

Honestly, Oliver and Felicity could brush pinkie fingers in passing and I'd probably rate it an 8 out of 10 on the hotness scale.

[SmallScreenDiva]

I'm very curious to see how Oliver would be as a boyfriend. Would he be affectionate and touchy-feely as well? I think so. Maybe not at Felicity's level, but we know he likes touching her from all that shoulder smoulder and arm caresses in the past.

[ohjoy]

You guys are ruining me. How am I supposed to quit the show at the end of the season when this idea of Oliver-the-Physically-Affectionate-Boyfriend-to-Felicity is even a remote hope for the future?

Edited April 11, 2015 by RandomMe

[quarks]

To clarify my earlier point, the Oliver as vigilante vs. Laurel as attorney wasn't so much a problem with their relationship, although it was; it showed that at least in the beginning, the two started out with fundamentally different approaches to justice, a contrast made worse when Oliver met two different women who were willing to go along with the vigilante approach.  But that really wasn't the biggest issue: the biggest problem was how to deal with that within the context of an action/drama show whose purpose was to change the vigilante into a hero worthy of standing beside Superman in the Justice League. (Or, well, given what was actually greenlit and will be on TV, Supergirl.)  For this to happen, Starling City's legal system has to be so incompetent that it does need a vigilante hero.  Ok, great - except, then, in copying the Nolan films, the show initially put Laurel into that legal system (if on the legal aid side) which meant that right from the beginning, Laurel had to be part of that incompetence - which meant Laurel actually had to be incompetent. And in the first five episodes, that's exactly what happens.  Laurel was unable to help the clients in the pilot, who were saved by Oliver and his Magical Arrow of Downloading Secure Bank Account information.  In the second episode, Laurel was unable to sue Somers without Oliver and his Magical Arrow of Recording Confessions from the Bad Guys. In the the third episode, Deadshot takes care of the bad guy before Laurel can even start to do anything.  In the fourth episode, Laurel is unable to save the innocent guy without Oliver's help. In the fifth episode, Laurel was unable to save Oliver until Oliver used Diggle to create a failsafe alibi. After that Laurel stopped trying to save anyone until episode 10 - where again she couldn't do anything without Oliver's help.

 

End result: a Laurel that's incompetent. And that's a problem.

 

My guess is that the original plan was for Laurel to slowly realize that the law wasn't always enough for justice, just as Oliver slowly realized that vigilantism didn't always lead to justice. There's some lines in the first four episodes indicating that. And that's not a bad approach - it led to some fascinating storytelling in the second Nolan Batman film.  I also suspect that the original plan was to have Laurel slowly inspire/lead Oliver to justice - but as said, the original concept also forced Laurel to be incompetent, which put her in a difficult position to inspire/lead anyone, let alone Oliver. The result: Helena, competent in vigilantism if in nothing else; McKenna, a solid cop; Shado, a skilled fighter; Sara, a skilled fighter; Isabel, originally a brilliant business leader; and oh yes, Felicity, the expert computer hacker and occasional forensic evidence science person.

 

The main problem with abandoning the original plan, however, was that it continued to screw Laurel - partly because it robbed her of that development from "law is good" to "vigilantism is my path to true justice!"  We know what set everyone else on this path, and we know what motivates everyone else on Flash. Arrow finally did give a motive for this - Laurel could, by pretending to be the Canary, convince criminals that her sister was still around - but it's a story that I think left out a few beats along the way.

[BkWurm1]

I'm very curious to see how Oliver would be as a boyfriend. Would he be affectionate and touchy-feely as well? I think so. Maybe not at Felicity's level, but we know he likes touching her from all that shoulder smoulder and arm caresses in the past.

There would be hands.  Lots of hands.  I joked about pinkies brushing but honestly, I expect something that builds on that.   Laying hands like suggested on arms and shoulders yes, but also brushing of the fingers, resting of the palm over the top of her hand,  a discrete handclasp, fingertips touching until the last moment.  A thumb rubbing a sensitive spot on her wrist or playing with e soft padding on her palm.  

 

Then fingertips brushing against her temple, her cheek.  A trace of her lips, maybe the contour of her collar bone, sweeping along the curve of the back of her neck and her in return, a caress against his jawline grazing the stubble on his face or gently testing the strength of a new cut or bruise.  Bodies leaning into each other, deep soulful gazes that say everything.

 

 

 

That's my hope/expectation for them together in front of people.  Not all the time, but when they need to express their love and concern.

 

In private, yeah, I'd expect him to be very hands on, but I think that's where the kisses would stay, in private - though that leaves getting interrupted, right?  ;)

Edited April 11, 2015 by BkWurm1

[CabotCove]

103 Lone Gunmen Airs 10/24/2012 10/24/2012

102 Honor Thy Father Airs 10/17/2012 10/17/2012

111 Trust But Verify Prep 10/22/2012 10/30/2012

104 An Innocent Man Airs 10/31/2012 10/31/2012

111 Trust But Verify Shoot 11/2/2012 11/13/2012

105 Damaged Airs 11/7/2012 11/7/2012

112 Vertigo Prep 11/5/2012 11/14/2012

106 Legacies Airs 11/14/2012 11/14/2012

112 Vertigo Shoot 11/15/2012 11/26/2012

So you can see that all those conceits for Olicity were well established before audiences and critics got a look.

All the audience and critics did was confirm what the producers already knew, and provided them ammo to make their case.

Thanks for data but  NO, that is not what Im seeing at all, the data barely correlates with your deduction.  Those episodes in bold were shot when arrow was on air and after the "Olicity episode", (1.03) had aired. Some shot days  after they have already gotten feedback for 1.03 on fast paced places like twitter for example, also something to note, critics/media people sometimes get screenings way in advance of airing. Even if some episodes were drafted before the air date of 1.03, they can always make last minute additions later, before and during shooting. The shootings which happened way after 1.03 air date (10/24/2012). Verify and Vertigo for example were shot way in NOVEMBER 2012.

 

103 aired October 24. 108 filmed September 27 to October 5: https://twitter.com/...128621417263104

So yeah  looks like 1.08  its possibly the last episode they made before the show started airing, it seems they were a lot faster than the Flash pacing. OK at least 1.08 has proof that it was shot before 1.03, I agree. I would be interested to find out what dates they shot 1.09.  I can possibly believe they likely shot this one too before 1.03 airing as well. My vibe-dar seems to partially tell me so.  IMO pre midseason (of season 1) episodes had the most authentic Olicity writing. The vibe just felt so different than what the show started dishing out later, after midseason.

 

Also: both Guggenheim and Stephen have mentioned WB prez Peter Roth calling them after watching a cut of 103 and demand more Felicity, and learning from the EPs that they already had booked EBR for the next few episodes. This happened sometime in August, two months before the show premiered, almost 3 months before audiences saw Felicity.   Which is why whenever I see "fanservice" accusations wrt Felicity's ever expanding role, my first thought is always that the fan they were serving is the Warner Bros PRESIDENT.

EBR is brilliant, I can believe the writers saw something in her straight away and  the production dates data of of her first episodes seem to prove they already wanted her as recurring character at least. Its a huge bonus that the WB pres become one of her first fans. Whatever happened after the airing of her first apperance/s is a different story however, like further extension and expansion to regular & beyond, that to me is pretty much debatable that its all behind the scenes influenced decisions. But I aint got much of a problem with that if any, because  I think she is brilliant, earned her place with shear talent. Anyway this little backstory seems to me, is more of an individual proof of excellence and impression on the creators (EBR/Felicity) than it is about a ship (Olicity), since we are mostly talking about ships in here.

 

Only because Oliver is so stoic. I'm fully waiting to be proved wrong. If Oliver could be physically affectionate with her

 

TBH Its probably partially Amell, Imo.  Fairly,  I have only seen him in here & TVD (as an angry werewolf), maybe I should see him in an upbeat role. 

Edited April 11, 2015 by Conell

[ostentatious]

My "deduction" covers through Trust But Verify prep. Every moment I listed happened in that ep or before. Vertigo was the first ep to enter preprod after 103 aired. Trust But Verify was two days into preprod when 103 aired. The moment from that ep is the first shoulder touch. The scene is integral to the episode and is not something that could've been added in because anyone squeed over Felicity. I suppose arguably the director of the ep could've received a call during filming demanding he have Oliver touch her? That seems unlikely.

Vertigo absolutely is the first ep that could've been broken entirely after 103 aired, and you know what? I am erring on the side of caution using the preprod dates, because ep breaking could precede that by two weeks. Official preprod dates tend to be about bookkeeping, tracking expenditures associated with prepping a shoot. The budget for production elements to kick off their work opened up on the preprod date. They don't mean that mind control was exerted disallowing anyone from thinking about the ep before the preprod window. The script would be further along, often done, by that point. That doesn't mean there can't be rewrites of course. If they can't secure a location, for example, they might rewrite. But during that period all the other production elements are getting their shit together to prepare for filming during preprod, not sitting around waiting for the script to come out so they can figure out what sets to build, costumes to design, locations to secure, storyboards to render, and guest stars to cast. The needs of the script have to be known before they can even decide where to spend their time and money. A big expensive ep coming up? They have to know what's happening in that ep so they can be conservative with a few before that. These things do not happen with a snap of the fingers.

So it is conservative to put the line at Vertigo, which began preprod 7 working days after 103 aired, and is the episode in which she first revealed she's noticed how hot he is, and that has the trust scene at the end. Since the former scene is a major clue piece for the ep plot and the latter is the setup for Felicity's official involvement with the team which will be happening 2 eps later, I strongly suspect they didn't just come up with that idea when they sat down to break Vertigo. Therefore, the decision to let her in on the secret almost certainly happened before 103 aired. Now true, the awesome reaction to EBR confirmed they had made the right choices, but it did not CREATE any of these choices.

There is nothing wrong with my math or my hypothesis.

Edited April 11, 2015 by ostentatious

[dtissagirl]

The Roth anecdote is also your standard Hollywood ~folk tale of positivity and serendipity~. I've been around this kind of industry talk for long enough to know telling the media/public that the WB president is smitten with EBR means they were on the lookout for a replacement Love Interest.

 

Which also says look, we're gonna change direction on the show in the romance arc. But there are internal politics, and the CW execs banked on Katie Cassidy's previous work with them, and there are contracts in place, and we fucking named the character after Black Canary, so we're gonna go slowly and with backup plans for the backup plans.

 

All of this without EVER coming out and saying well, it turns out nobody noticed in script dev that we had a dud of a character in Laurel. And nobody thought of chem testing KC and Stephen. And here's this day player ball of sunshine that made Stephen break character and smile, and so we're running with it, fingers crossed everyone that the day player is a pro! But hey, we're also looking into two other possible options [Helena, McKenna], because boy are we screwed with Laurel.

Edited April 11, 2015 by dancingnancy

[ostentatious]

The Roth anecdote is also your standard Hollywood ~folk tale of positivity and serendipity~. I've been around this kind of industry talk for long enough to know telling the media/public that the WB president is smitten with EBR means they're on the lookout for a replacement Love Interest.

Which also says look, we're gonna change direction on the show in the romance arc. But there are internal politics, and the CW execs banked on Katie Cassidy's previous work with them, and there are contracts in place, and we fucking named the character after Black Canary, so we're gonna go slowly and with backup plans for the backup plans.

All of this without EVER coming out and saying well, it turns out nobody noticed in script dev that we had a dud of a character in Laurel. And nobody thought of chem testing KC and Stephen. And here's this day player ball of sunshine that made Stephen break character and smile, and so we're running with it, fingers crossed everyone that the day player is a pro! But hey, we're also looking into two other possible options [Helena, McKenna], because boy are we screwed with Laurel.

God, seriously. You know what EBR provided that they didn't even know they needed (as per MGs quote)?

COVER.

If she hadn't been there giving them not just an alternative but one that everyone was excited about on set and then they got an incredible audience response that they were no doubt *betting on*, someone would've had to answer MUCH harder questions about why they didn't chem test (likely the network's decision, since they were the ones with the relationship -- and you know the network doesn't want to admit mistakes), or why they came up with such a dreadful, unsustainable central relationship in the first place.

I bet when audiences reacted to Felicity and to the Oliver/Felicity pairing the way they expected (even more profoundly actually), their relief and joy was palpable.

You'll also note than any time any producer or actor gets asked about planning wrt Olicity, they confine their responses to 103. They were genuinely bowled over unexpectedly by her in 103! Blah blah dailies blah blah Roth blah blah genuine smiles blah. Yes, I'm sure that part of this fairy tale is true. Which means that since we know she filmed her first scene on Friday, August 3, 2012, they have a story to cover them through...oh let's cut them some slack and say Monday, August 6, 2012.

So what happened August 7 2012 forward, guys?

Edited April 11, 2015 by ostentatious

[Guest]

I'm very curious to see how Oliver would be as a boyfriend. Would he be affectionate and touchy-feely as well? I think so. Maybe not at Felicity's level, but we know he likes touching her from all that shoulder smoulder and arm caresses in the past.

 

I think Oliver has the potential to be very affectionate but I can see it being restrained when they're around other people or just focused on the job. I imagine shoulder touching and holding hands, a few kisses here and there but probably only when they're on their own and having one of their moments. 

[Password]

I think Oliver has the potential to be very affectionate but I can see it being restrained when they're around other people or just focused on the job. I imagine shoulder touching and holding hands, a few kisses here and there but probably only when they're on their own and having one of their moments.

I agree with this. I think Oliver's stoicism would make most appearances in others company. But alone he'd be fine.

[ostentatious]

I think Oliver has the potential to be very affectionate but I can see it being restrained when they're around other people or just focused on the job. I imagine shoulder touching and holding hands, a few kisses here and there but probably only when they're on their own and having one of their moments.

I think what we'll see is what we've already seen, magnified.

So, where we've gotten shoulder touches -- okay everybody sit down -- we'll get shoulder nuzzling and shoulder kissing.

Where we've gotten the whole cupping the cheek gently thing, we'll get cupping the jaw as the fingers slide into her hair and the hand continues its journey to the nape of her neck.

Because I think essentially Oliver has been MUTED. So, letting go is just turning the sound way, way up.

Upper arm touches become grips as he pulls her in closer. Hugs where he only allowed himself to barely press with one hand ( filmed in closeup ofc) become hands pressing into the small of her back (in closeup ofc!)

I'm re watching some s1 and s2 stuff and man do they ever like these closeups of their increasing physical intimacy. You can actually *map* this. Editing would like us to know that all these touches are v. v. important, y'all.

Also it's kind of funny how Felicity keeps popping up right after someone gives Oliver relationship advice. Not just 108, but McKenna's "someone you don't have to apologize to." Last line before they wind up in bed, and then...yep, Felicity's face lights up his cell and JUST AS THE LYRIC says "I'm in love now" she says "Hey, it's me." And the next scene? After he unties her, she *apologizes* for giving Helena info and he says, hey, it's not your fault.

IIRC Felicity calling also got him out of bed with Sara, and in a roundabout way with Laurel. Diggle made the call, but he did it at her direction and she's there with him, and the first word he says is "Felicity."

Felicity Smoak: Cuddle-Blocking Oliver's Sexual Partners Since 2013.

Every time he sleeps with someone else, she pops up, God...even Isabel.

Oliver THIS IS THE UNIVERSE GIVING YOU A SIGN.

Edited April 11, 2015 by ostentatious

[dtissagirl]

God, seriously. You know what EBR provided that they didn't even know they needed (as per MGs quote)?

COVER.

If she hadn't been there giving them not just an alternative but one that everyone was excited about on set and then they got an incredible audience response that they were no doubt *betting on*, someone would've had to answer MUCH harder questions about why they didn't chem test (likely the network's decision, since they were the ones with the relationship -- and you know the network doesn't want to admit mistakes), or why they came up with such a dreadful, unsustainable central relationship in the first place.

I bet when audiences reacted to Felicity and to the Oliver/Felicity pairing the way they expected (even more profoundly actually), their relief and joy was palpable.

 

Oh, totally. They got SO MUCH COVER with EBR, it's not even funny. Relief that they had a viable alternate Love Interest, someone to point at when the WB execs came breathing down their necks about Laurel, someone to use as media distraction [Deadline announced EBR as recurring on August 10. A week after her one day in 103, they had long term plans for Felicity]. It even gave them cover as writers who admit frankly to liking quippy dialog, because Felicity allowed them to MAKE OLIVER UNCLENCH.

 

The media and audience reaction to EBR and Oliver/Felicity even gave them cover with what I can only imagine was a delicate situation with Katie Cassidy. They had to somehow navigate the extremely uncomfortable task of telling someone they hired to play a pivotal role that she wasn't gonna get to do that anymore. But I would bet moneys that "Warner Bros president" and "the internet people sayeth so" were used to justify to KC and her management why they had to change routes.

[Chaser]

SA was still talking about Oliver and Laurel being it for each other at SDCC13. He really didn't change his tune until S2 was about up when he refuted KCs soulmate comment (IIRC that is).

Do you think they were waiting on the go ahead from DC to make the change? DC really seemed to get in on the Olicity promotion bandwagon.

Also, why do you think KC still talks up Oliver and Laurel? It such a different vibe from everyone else. You get the feeling she didn't get the memo.

Really enjoy having people who are familar with industry on the board. I find it so interesting.

Edited April 11, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[ostentatious]

SA was still talking about Oliver and Laurel being it for each other at SDCC13. He really didn't change his tune until S2 was about up when he refuted KCs soulmate comment (IIRC that is).

Do you think they were waiting on the go ahead from DC to make the change? DC really seemed to get in on the Olicity promotion bandwagon.

Also, why do you think KC still talks up Oliver and Laurel? It such a different vibe from everyone else. You get the feeling she didn't get the memo.

Really enjoy having people who are familar with industry on the board. I find it so interesting.

I think that SDCC 2013 was such a fraught time. They'd hired CL, they were announcing her coming on board, prods have stated KC was upset by that. They'd brought Emily along, they gave Stephen and a Emily a co-video interview!! But Stephen continuing to discuss Lauriver....well, he talks from where the character is at that moment, and they would've been on 201 or 202. He also didn't want to paint a target on Emily's back, I imagine.

She talked them up longer than anyone else because it's in her best interest to do so. It was last spring and early summer, I think, when she was going around doing tons of cons and talking soul mates at every opportunity? I think she's finally gotten the memo, though, because at Paleyfest she did not jump on opportunities.

Also found this hilarious bit from KC @SDCC 2012:

Steven and I sat down together when we first met, and we developed a back story for the two of them, because you have to feel that," Cassidy says. "You have to feel a connection between these two. It's almost like the Joey and Dawson in Dawson's Creek. You wanted them to be together so badly, but they never were.

Ffwd 18 months and in response to questions about what they were going to do with Olicity, the prods are talking about how Berlanti taught them that you have to have a plan, and you also have to be willing to let go of the plan.

Berlanti of course is famously the writer on DC who pushed the switch from Dawson/Joey to Pacey/Joey.

Edited April 11, 2015 by ostentatious

[strikera0]

So my question is beyond the comics reason, what is the current rationale that L/O shippers are using that L/O should be together over any other pairing? I mean I want to hear their side of the story. Because I honestly don't see O/L being together romantically at this point for any other valid reason than comics. And even that reason does not hold up well because, comics are always changing. I'm not saying there is never the potential that seasons down the road the writers may change their minds. But as of right now, I can't really see them being romantically together. Does anyone know what they O/L supporters use as their reasons?

 

I think people who ship Oliver/Laurel may feel that an Oliver/Laurel romance fits Arrow's narrative the best. At it's core, Arrow is a story of transformation, redemption and forgiveness; and I think some of the general ideas behind Oliver & Laurel are that true love never dies out, that people can grow and change, and be forgiven for past mistakes and get things right the second time around.  

 

 

Also, why do you think KC still talks up Oliver and Laurel? It such a different vibe from everyone else. You get the feeling she didn't get the memo.

 

I think she still talks them up because she has a fanbase to serve (yes, there are still some Oliver/Laurel shippers out there who are hoping for a GA/BC romance).

Edited April 11, 2015 by strikera0

[blixie]

Haha I never knew that about Berlanti! Katie is definitely in world of her own.

[Guest]

I love reading these theories about them changing their plan early on. I can see where it makes sense, although I've always assumed it was a happy accident. 

 

I never really considered any Olicity stuff truly intentional in s1, particularly early s1, but when I go back and re-watch scenes now there does seem to be some hints, especially in the way they edit things. The biggest example I can think of is the Diggle/Oliver scene where Diggle is telling him that when he meets the right person he'll be ready for her and then they cut to Felicity. I don't usually think about things like that but yeah. That was something.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Guest

[steeledwithakiss]

I didn't know KC compared them to Dawson and Joey. I understand why I never agreed with her take on things (especially L/O). I didn't want D/J together at all and was so happy that the writers had the guts to end Dawson's creek like they did. Berlanti having that great idea at the start of s3 "Pacey kisses Joey, now how do we get to that point and what are the consequences?" mapped the whole season and changed the structure of the show forever. Now that was a game changer, because before that DC was not about a triangle at all, it was about those 2 soulmates that were meant for each other but maybe were too young to make it work. I can't say I enjoyed the show after s3 (s4/5/6 where the writing kept on getting worse) because they couldn't let go of the triangle and basically made me wish Pacey would find a girl that was not so hung up on a guy she dated 2 months when she was 15yo. On Arrow it seems they've let go of trying to make L/O romantic ever again. We had a lot of cues this season about Felicity being "it" for Oliver. She's his last thought before he dies, if he can't be with her he thinks he'll die alone, she was the first and up until now the only woman (he's not related to ofc) we saw him say I love you to. Of course the writers could change their mind later on, but as SA said Felicity is the only woman for him this year, but I don't see that changing.

Edited April 11, 2015 by steeledwithakiss

[dtissagirl]

SA was still talking about Oliver and Laurel being it for each other at SDCC13. He really didn't change his tune until S2 was about up when he refuted KCs soulmate comment (IIRC that is).

Do you think they were waiting on the go ahead from DC to make the change? DC really seemed to get in on the Olicity promotion bandwagon.

Also, why do you think KC still talks up Oliver and Laurel? It such a different vibe from everyone else. You get the feeling she didn't get the memo.

Really enjoy having people who are familar with industry on the board. I find it so interesting.

 

Imo Stephen is always selling the fish he needs to sell when he needs to sell it.

 

The whole replacing the Love Interest thing took them A LONG TIME. But even before they started the actual switch, they needed to set it up. I mean, the switch alone took them ten episodes:

 

1. extracting Laurel from the One Woman role in the hallway scene in 214

2. inserting Felicity in the One Woman role in the not so fake I love you scene in 223

 

But even before 214, there were a couple of tiny little [huge] details to deal with:

 

1. having Oliver solve his Laurel issues and fall out of love with her before changing Love Interest

2. having Oliver fall in love with Felicity. Or at least put Felicity in a position that allowed Oliver to fall in love with her.

 

So they dealt with most of the Laurel/Oliver stuff in 121-201, and delivered the final blow in 214.

 

Meanwhile, Felicity was being put in the position that facilitated Oliver falling from her -- from the time she joined the team in 114 to the Sara/Oliver lunge, actually. That happened to allow the Laurel/Oliver final blow in 214 [lookie, it's all connected!], and so they could do their sleight of hand trick thing they wanted with the PSYCH! but not really of the not so fake I love you. Sara was the Love Interest switch facilitator. She killed Laurel/Oliver, and she distracted the audience from Felicity/Oliver right up 'til the point the narrative needed the audience to go back to paying attention to them in the S2 finale.

 

 

So you had Stephen talking Laurel/Oliver up right up to the beginning of S2, then talking Sara/Oliver up mid S2, and then after the S2 finale, he went to SDCC and "there's One Woman for Oliver, and it's Felicity". Presto, full switch.

 

As for KC, I have no idea. Ego? Hope? She somewhat changed her tune this season, but otoh, she uses the word "soulmate" in actual serious interviews, so I got nothing.

Edited April 11, 2015 by dancingnancy

[nksarmi]

The thing is that while many people say SA and KC have NO chemistry - I don't think they ever had a chance.  The story and script was just so bad - how could actor chemistry save it?

 

Right from the start we know that Oliver cheated on Laurel with her sister. That's a lot to get over all by itself.  Him showing up after being dead for five years doesn't erase that.  Then we also see that Laurel is with Tommy and the pairing seems sweet.  Why would we want Laurel and Oliver together when that would hurt Tommy?  If they really do plan most of a season in advance - I see very little about season one that was supposed to make me want Laurel and Oliver to reunite.

 

Of course season two seems to deliberately break down any desire to see them together completely, but the writers were not kind to them from the start.  If the writers had given them a less awful background and showed us they had real love between them - I think they could have somewhat overcome lack of chemistry between the actors.  Maybe they just always undervalued how little anyone would want to see Laurel with Oliver was they showed him sleeping with her sister?