Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[SmallScreenDiva]

To me, it always sounded like they knew they were ready to move past Oliver/Laurel before Olicity even became a thing.

 

A lot of Olicity fans point to "Vertigo" as the moment when they really started believing Olicity could actually be a thing. And that was way back in 112. At the end of that episode is that very lovely "Can I trust you?" scene between Oliver and Felicity. Just look at the way that scene was framed. If you didn't know, what was going on, you'd totally think it's something romantic, right? I mean, rain on the windows, soft, muted lights, quiet, intimate conversation between Felicity and Oliver. The show was veering away from Laurel and Oliver halfway through the first season, maybe even earlier. Felicity is firmly planted in Oliver's "world" as she officially joins Team Arrow 2 eps later, I believe.

 

[Chaser]

That was a beautiful shot. 

 

I would love them to return to that cafe.

[apinknightmare]

That was a beautiful shot.

I would love them to return to that cafe.

That's Big Belly Burger, haha.

[statsgirl]

It makes me feel sad that the set has been repurposed to be Jitters on The Flash.

 

 

To me, it always sounded like they knew they were ready to move past Oliver/Laurel before Olicity even became a thing.

I wonder if Felicity hadn't happened, would they have been looking around for someone else for Oliver? Would McKenna Hall have stayed on the show for longer, or returned later after rehab?

 

 

Guggenheim:  that love triangle really starts to come to a boil with Wednesday’s episode, Episode 20.

 

What is it with these people and episode 20?

[apinknightmare]

What is it with these people and episode 20?

It's the beginning of sweeps, baby!!

[looptab]

I wouldn't have minded McKenna. It would have been a nice story,her being the cop chasing the Hood and all. Even if I really don't like Janina Gavankar.

[Password]

Tbh I think I always would've looked for a Felicity-type character for Oliver to be with. Someone who knows about his vigilante activities, works with him, believes in what he/they do or does. More importantly someone who isn't "tainted" by knowing Oliver the playboy. I always felt like people from his past held him back because of the guilt he felt at being such a selfish boy. So when Felicity came along it was kind of like "Yes!" moment, fist pump and everything.

Not to mention she was just a lot more fun and easy, unlike Laurel, because she didn't have negative history with him. Laurels history with Oliver made it very difficult for either of them to love without baggage.

[dtissagirl]

I really think they were looking for alternatives to Laurel as early as Helena.

[NumberCruncher]

I wonder if Felicity hadn't happened, would they have been looking around for someone else for Oliver? Would McKenna Hall have stayed on the show for longer, or returned later after rehab?

I really liked the dynamic between Oliver and McKenna and also though there was good chemistry between the actors too so I wouldn't have minded that at all.

 

I really think they were looking for alternatives to Laurel as early as Helena.

I agree with this too. Again, I thought SA and JD played off each other very well, so they hotness potential was there--unfortunately the Huntress ended up being too cray-cray for a relationship to be viable.

Honestly, looking back (with no shade at all to either actor when I say this because I don't think it's anything other than good old-fashioned bad luck and a misstep on the part of the network) because Stephen tends to naturally have genuine chemistry with the vast majority of actresses on the show, including the women playing his relatives (Willa, Susanna), it only makes it that much more curious the seeming complete lack of chemistry with he has with Katie, who plays the one character whom most would expect to the Arrow to end up with in a romantic sense. I don't know who bears the responsibility for dropping the ball in that pairing, but damn--what a mess that decision has created.

ETA: Just to be clear, I am in no way criticizing either actor here. Stephen and Katie both have had chemistry with actors of the opposite sex on the show, just not with each other, IMO. I'm just scratching my head that the one relationship that needed to have it didn't/doesn't. That's the point I was making.

Edited April 7, 2015 by NumberCruncher

[nksarmi]

I think they decided to stop going forward with Lauriver as OTP by the time the hook-up came around, it seems like they wanted to move past it as quickly as possible, hence out of nowhere renewed feelings and the added bonus of making the pairing even more toxic.

I wonder if Tommy would have survived the earthquake if they hadn't stopped the Lauriver storyline.

I have always like the Black Canary character in the cartoons I have watched with my kids and I'm all about Superpower Girl Team Ups for my daughter and step-daughter so I like the idea of Birds of Pray (loved the short-lived WB series about 10 years ago) and the New 52's Earths Finest with Power Girl and Huntress for Earth 2.  Heck, I even liked it when Catwoman and Barbara Gordon worked together in Batman cartoons.  But I have to admit that I never really knew Black Canary's real name and thus it escaped me that Laurel was supposed to be her when I first found this show on Netflix.

 

With the choices they made in regards to Oliver and Laurel to me - it seems like they wanted to sink the GA+BC ship right from the start (like before Felicity ever appeared and olicity became a thing).  By the time they got around to the painful hookup and Tommy betrayal - it seemed like they wanted people to actively dislike them as a pairing.  So its hard to believe they ever intended to reunite this couple in a meaningful way early on. Now I do think they consider it an option to reunite them down the road...but they seemed to want Oliver to be the Captain Kirk of the series early on and you can't have that if he's in love with Laurel/BC.

 

So I think they fully intended to make Oliver a "dog" for the long-run of the show with most of his hook-ups coming in the style of Helena and Isabel.  But olicity changed that and I think it's clear the writers have NO idea whatsoever how to write a lead romantic couple.  They can do well with side couples like Roy/Thea and Diggle/Lyla but when it comes to olicity - they were better off when it was coming from the actors themselves instead of the script.  But I digress...

 

I was very surprised they killed Tommy and I don't like the impact it had on Laurel at all.  But I think the writers thought it was brilliant so I think he was going to be used to spur changes in Laurel and Oliver no matter what.

[quarks]

 

I wonder if Felicity hadn't happened, would they have been looking around for someone else for Oliver? Would McKenna Hall have stayed on the show for longer, or returned later after rehab?

 

 

I'm pretty certain, for reasons I detailed in the first season episode discussions, that the show had decided to move on from Oliver and Laurel by at least the third episode of the first season, if not earlier (possibly right after the pilot was shot.)  If Felicity hadn't worked out, the show would have gone with Helena, McKenna or another option, but not Laurel.

They can do well with side couples like Roy/Thea and Diggle/Lyla but when it comes to olicity - they were better off when it was coming from the actors themselves instead of the script.  But I digress...

 

But this was all written into the script.

 

I'm not saying that Stephen Amell and EBR didn't add their own chemistry/fun/acting to these bits. But the "Felicity, you're remarkable"/"Thank you for remarking on it" was in the script. As was the stuff about the sports bottles and "I've noticed," and the "Can I trust you," and Oliver heading to Felicity's car once he'd been shot. None of this was improvised. 

[tv echo]

I didn't care for McKenna so I was glad that she left.  I agree with whoever said that anyone from Oliver's past, pre-island life should stay in the past as a romantic interest.  The old Oliver essentially 'died' during his five years away and was reborn as this new, completely different Oliver.

 

Speaking of the Huntress, isn't she a superhero in some comic incarnations (part of the BOP)?  So that would make her the first masked female superhero shown on TV "at this point".

Edited April 7, 2015 by tv echo

[NumberCruncher]

I can see both sides of it. There was clearly things written into the script that pushed the audience towards Olicity but I do think that SA and EBR injected a lot of life into the relationship we have seen develop on screen. I think without those added bits from the actors the most we would likely have seen was a Clark/Chloe-type situation with the strong hints at something more, but nothing beyond the longing.

I do think @nksarmi has a point though that the showrunners are terrible at writing the bigger picture romances on the show. Lauriver was a complete train wreck and S3 Olicity--while miles better than what preceded it--certainly hasn't been a shining example of a well-developed romance. Both relationships have painfully pointed out that the writers don't know how to create believable drama for a couple beyond injecting a third party and then making a three characters catch a major case of the stupids.

[nksarmi]

But this was all written into the script.

 

I'm not saying that Stephen Amell and EBR didn't add their own chemistry/fun/acting to these bits. But the "Felicity, you're remarkable"/"Thank you for remarking on it" was in the script. As was the stuff about the sports bottles and "I've noticed," and the "Can I trust you," and Oliver heading to Felicity's car once he'd been shot. None of this was improvised. 

Ok, I'm trying to figure out exactly how to explain my feelings about olicity prior to this season vs now because to me - there has been a huge change and it has been for the worse.

 

When I watched Oliver and Felicity together in season one - I did not see them as a couple.  I saw her thinking he was cute and them being flirty, but to me - they were developing a friendship, not love.

 

When I watched Oliver with Felicity in season two, I see a strong friendship growing with some flirty-flirt on the side.  I see Felicity being hurt over Isabel, but I think its because she was just so scuzzy.  Plus, Isabel kind of made that into a "I'm hotter than you" moment somehow.  It didn't seem like Oliver dating Sara bothered Felicity as much (though it did a little because she clearly started feeling insecure about her place in Oliver's life).  And as much as Barry bothered Oliver, it could have just as easily been an over-protective brother type vibe Oliver was sending off as much as him really liking Felicity.

 

It's kind of like the subtext of Xena and Gabby in the early seasons vs. later when the writers started straight up writing it in the script.  It's like early on, the romance was there if you wanted to see it that way.  But it was open for interpretation if you saw it another way.  I feel like that was Oliver and Felicity for two seasons.

 

Now come season three and olicity is canon.  Oliver loves Felicity and has stated it several times.  I don't think Felicity has come out and said it, but she has been told by enough people what her feelings that its pretty much a given that she loves him too.  There is no "room for interpretation" - they are a couple (who is actually NOT a couple and that is infuriating enough in and of itself).  It seems to me that when the writers made the move from subtext to canon in terms of olicity - they started failing the couple.  They should have kept it subtext and let the actors do the rest as far as I'm concerned.  But of course, you wouldn't get kisses and such that way - but still, the overall relationship was better for me in seasons one and two than it is now.

Edited April 7, 2015 by nksarmi

[ostentatious]

I think the initial plan was for the O/L/T triangle to last for the first three seasons or so, and Tommy would go Dark Archer as O/L finally got together, probably in season three. I think Oliver would've had other involvements but I don't think he was ever going to be a "dawg" about it. They would've been more Helena type things. There would've been some point where L/O were just reconciled and then boom Sara would've come back, Laurel would've felt betrayed, there's your wrench for a while. But that's how it would've gone, Laurel would've been the girl he couldn't sully with his touch, and also she would've gotten the BC storyline where Oliver doesn't want her out there fighting. It just would've had emotion behind it because it would've been the woman he loves putting herself at risk.

 

I think that since critics and audiences alike recognized from the pilot that L/O was not going to work even briefly, much less provide the scaffolding for Oliver's series long arc, that the prods had to realize it during *production* of the pilot. I think they had to start mentally planning even then. If Felicity hadn't come along someone else would've been. It wasn't going to be Laurel, and that has nothing to do with Felicity. 

 

I think that by 108, when the editing cuts directly from Diggle's "...when the right person comes along, you'll be ready for her" to Felicity entering Walter's office, they knew what they *wanted* to do, so they were putting those sorts of things in place. I think they were ensuring that they could eventually point to moments like that and in Vertigo and say look, there's the build. They needed that in place just in case they were allowed to do what they wanted, and IMO they absolutely *wanted* Olicity probably by about 15 minutes after they saw the dailies from her first scene.

[SmallScreenDiva]

I do think @nksarmi has a point though that the showrunners are terrible at writing the bigger picture romances on the show. Lauriver was a complete train wreck and S3 Olicity--while miles better than what preceded it--certainly hasn't been a shining example of a well-developed romance.

 

I'm withholding judgment on S3 Olicity until the end of the season but with Laurel and Oliver I do wonder often if it was active and purposefully written to be a train wreck. We've all mentioned the choices writers made for this couple. And they were choices. They made the decision to keep Laurel out of Oliver's orbit for ridiculous amounts of time considering she's the romantic interest (and the female lead). They made the decision to put her in a romantic relationship that puts her in a better light than when she's with Oliver. Characters keep pointing out in show how toxic the romance is. And the audience kept getting the constant reminder that he chose to lie to her and leave her behind while he went on a pleasure cruise with HER SISTER.

 

Because, contrary to popular opinion, the writers have actually shown that they could write a romance. They've been writing one since halfway through season one and throughout seasons 2 and 3 with Olicity. A lot of folks here on this board don't agree, but while I've had my frustrations, I am for the most part OK with it.

Edited April 7, 2015 by SmallScreenDiva

[lexicon]

I've seen it said both on this site and others, that the problem with Olicity this season hasn't been Oliver x Felicity themselves but rather the extremes the show has gone to to keep them apart. A lot of the angst has been forced and its that fact more than anything that has made it so unbearable to watch because when the show let's them be themselves, when they get it right, it is glorious. So I think the show runners can very much write romance, for Oliver x Felicity at least (that Laurel x Oliver mess just defies explanation) it's when the seek to drag the whole mess out til sweeps and in the process contort themselves and the characters into an unrecognizable mess in the misguided belief that nobody wants to watch a happy couple, that it becomes a problem.

[looptab]

I think that by 108, when the editing cuts directly from Diggle's "...when the right person comes along, you'll be ready for her" to Felicity entering Walter's office, they knew what they *wanted* to do, so they were putting those sorts of things in place. I think they were ensuring that they could eventually point to moments like that and in Vertigo and say look, there's the build. They needed that in place just in case they were allowed to do what they wanted, and IMO they absolutely *wanted* Olicity probably by about 15 minutes after they saw the dailies from her first scene.

I have to say that moment was not subtle at all, and if it was unintended and not purposeful, it certainly worked out for them. Personally I started watching Arrow just to see what it was this Olicity I kept hearing about. I had read articles about the ruse in the finale, of this couple that was teased but not yet a reality, and I was convinced it was a situation not unlike the triangle on The Vampire Diaries, all planned from the start.

At first, like nksarmi, I just saw friendship between the two of them, and her crush on him. And then, there was that cut you referred to. I thought, "Oh, okay, I see what they're doing here". The season though proceded with the trainwreck of O/L, I liked Felicity but in the meantime I had learnt about the comics history behind the characters and I was convinced they were just going to have their interactions as a comic relief of sort. 

But in season 2 there was no mistaking their intentions. As far as I'm concerned, they got me with that damn cup of coffee. One of my favorite moments, for sure.

[nksarmi]

I've seen it said both on this site and others, that the problem with Olicity this season hasn't been Oliver x Felicity themselves but rather the extremes the show has gone to to keep them apart. A lot of the angst has been forced and its that fact more than anything that has made it so unbearable to watch because when the show let's them be themselves, when they get it right, it is glorious. So I think the show runners can very much write romance, for Oliver x Felicity at least (that Laurel x Oliver mess just defies explanation) it's when the seek to drag the whole mess out til sweeps and in the process contort themselves and the characters into an unrecognizable mess in the misguided belief that nobody wants to watch a happy couple, that it becomes a problem.

You are probably right - if I have ever really liked someone with Oliver - it was Sara.  But that is probably because the execution and partnership was - to me - perfect (I mean, I didn't even feel bad that this is the person he cheated on Laurel with - they just worked so well together).  I think I could have also liked him with a less cray cray version of Huntress, but they went a wee bit over the top with her character. 

 

However, I have to admit that I always liked the potential of Oliver and Felicity together.  I used to talk about how adorable she was and thought their flirty friendship was easily one of the best things about the show.  But what they have done this season is make me dislike the idea of them wholesale.  I'm hoping the show can bring me back in, but honestly it isn't just olicity that I have disliked this season - I haven't been much of a fan of Oliver's since he decided to go off and die at Ra's hand in The Fall.  So before they repair olicity for me - I need them to fix Oliver.  Because until they do that, I'm not going to be a fan of the ship.

Edited April 7, 2015 by nksarmi

[steeledwithakiss]

I marathoned the show with a friend who had no idea about the comics destiny and after she watched the meet cute in 1x03 she thought they were the intended couple. It's like they wrote a love story without realizing it from day one, so it's easy to got back and analize their journey and have that "they were meant for each other" vibe but at the same time think it was a happy accident. They wrote Oliver as a broody, jaded, broken and cold ex playboy, separately they wrote Felicity as an optimist, funny, awkward,compassionate person. On paper and more importantly on screen they work really well together. What was Laurel supposed to bring to Oliver and vice versa after the island? Their dynamic before the island (if you forget the cheating) was I think much better. A driven, justice seeking girl and a superficial spoiled brat. I can understand what attracted them to each other then (the changing the guy and the "I admire her drive I want to be like her" tropes). Now, and you can see it from the pilot, there is no push and pull apart from their toxic past and stubborn personalities.

Another interesting dynamic was the one they had with him and Helena and Sara. Broken persons like him that understand him in a level nobody else does. However, for a person so closed off like Oliver it might not be the most healthy nor life changing connections he needs. I think that's why he works so well with Felicity. She hasn't been through what he's been through so she can help him get out of his head but at the same time she's such a compassionate person that she understands him too, because she feels for him.

As far as I'm concerned, I like the way Olicity was written in s3. It's far from perfect but there are for me the better written part of the show. What I didn't enjoy is Felicity being so blind as to Ray's problematic behaviour. I would have accepted it if we were shown that's how she is. But she has never been scared to speak her mind (Malcolm/Moira for god sake). At least if she had been crazy in love with him, we could have excused that behaviour (though not really because she's in love with Oliver and still see his flaws very clearly). Felicity is not blinded by love, the writers are and that's when they lose me.

 

[kismet]

What I think the writers need to do is learn that it is okay to be game-changing and epic with their relationships as well as their plots. They have no problem killing Oliver, but give him a full episode of emotional happiness and the show might not survive. I really feel like the show has failed writing romance because they are clinging to romantic cliches like angst, forced separation, triangles and other tropes. I think it would be brave of them to put OQ in a solid healthy romantic relationship and let that help his journey. No relationship on tv or IRL is perfect, but O/F can be together and try to overcome the problems that face them together. That would be epic & game-changing, especially on a network known for triangles & overused romantic tropes.

 

I will say they have shown that they can write romance when it is not the focus of the plot. Dyla, Thea/Roy, Tommy/Laurel and s2 O/F are all good examples of romance that is part of the story but not the plot. This season they have been so driven by plot, that they fail to realize that romance as plot is not an easy route. Well written soap dramas are good at writing to plot & romance simultaneously, Arrow s3 has more than enough examples of poorly written soap drama. So its not that they can't write romance, they just are not good at making it the focus or the driving force. I have respect for well written soap dramas, it takes a lot of creativity and skill to make romance, drama & plot all simultaneously work together in a way that does not seem forced or cliched, and not compromise their characters in the process.

 

I agree that s1 was more friendship than anything else with O/F. But as I said way back in this thread somewhere - to be actively bleeding out after your mother shot you and to turn to someone who doesn't know your secret to save you is a huge display of trust. He could have called Diggle, but instead he found her mini-cooper and hung out there until she came. That is the solid foundation for a relationship that is deeper than just a friendship, the first indications of a true partnership. Now the obvious flirty/romantic repartee didn't really come until s2, but I will say there were moments spattered in s1/2 that showed a physical attraction between O/F, not just from F but from O too. So I don't know when they decided to set the course for O/F romantic relationship, but their have been moments dropped all over the 3 seasons that add up to the moment we are at right now.

 

Honestly what I have loved most about the relationship between O/F is that they have shown through their actions how much they truly care about each other. It is not just words on a paper. Although there has been some amazingly written script interactions. They have both shown multiple times through their actions & words that they are a priority to each other. As an audience member, that speaks to me more so than just someone saying ILY or saying they want to be someone's partner. Prove to me that you care. Show me how much you love. I know I'm speaking in cliches now, but when I see how they behave in relationship to each other it feels deeper than just the cliche expressions.

 

IDK, I have hesitations, worries & concerns about how they will handle O/F in the last 5 episodes & in s4, but I want to have faith that they will pull it off and give it the justice it deserves. I mean they are very obsessed with justice, so they might just succeed. I will try to believe in the writers until they prove otherwise. :)

[steeledwithakiss]

It's not too late for them to show Oliver in a happy healthy relationship that helps him grow, actually for me it was too soon for Olicity in season 3. In theory I was for all the triangle, not for the triangle sake but for Felicity. Since we've been shown, or at the least it's been implied, that she hasn't been in a serious relationship since Cooper, it was important for her to try to have one with someone else than Oliver. She needed also to try and have a life outside of the lair and share scenes with other people than Oliver and Diggle. I also think Oliver needed to see Felicity won't be here waiting for him until he's ready for her (and what can I say I liked the glimpse we had of jealous Oliver in s2 because it was more played for laughs, s3 jealous Oliver kinda broke my heart). We were promised a lot about that triangle but it didn't deliver. It became about what Felicity could give to Ray for his hero journey. Oliver hasn't been shown how you can be a hero and have a love life, actually he seems to be even more set in his ways than before and how all the drama that's coming will make him change his mind I have no idea.

For me the triangle was a good idea in theory but the execution missed the mark. The only way to sort of salvage it for Felicity would be that she was the one breaking up things with Ray.

Edited April 7, 2015 by steeledwithakiss

[Chaser]

What-the-hell-am-I-feeling?-I-refuse-to-say-its-jealousy-so-we-shall-call-it-Larry is one of my favorite Oliver's. That elevator scene in S1 when he knocks the papers out of that dudes hands and his totally over you attitude with Barry in S2. Classic.

 

Jealous Oliver of S3? That one just hurts. Super proud of him for acknowledging its jealous tho.

[wonderwall]

It hurts because he knows this is all self inflicted :/ I can totally see him beating himself down about this because he had the chance to be ridiculously happy with the woman he loves, and he blew it. What makes it sad is that it isn't just jealousy, but it's regret as well. 

[statsgirl]

I think Oliver regrets the circumstances that he can't be with Felicity but he doesn't regret the choices he made because he still thinks they were the only ones. In the charming words of MG, Oliver's head is still up his ass.

 

So I think they fully intended to make Oliver a "dog" for the long-run of the show with most of his hook-ups coming in the style of Helena and Isabel. 

 

I was very surprised they killed Tommy and I don't like the impact it had on Laurel at all.  But I think the writers thought it was brilliant so I think he was going to be used to spur changes in Laurel and Oliver no matter what.

The problem was, killing Tommy didn't really spur changes in Laurel and it should have.

 

I think they could have made Oliver a dog for most of the show even if they had wanted to keep Laurel as his true love because she was off the board for him so he settled for meaningless short-term relationships. But that would have meant that Tommy stayed alive and once he was dead and Laurel free, they had to either put Oliver and Laurel together or end it.

 

.But this was all written into the script.

 

I'm not saying that Stephen Amell and EBR didn't add their own chemistry/fun/acting to these bits. But the "Felicity, you're remarkable"/"Thank you for remarking on it" was in the script. As was the stuff about the sports bottles and "I've noticed," and the "Can I trust you," and Oliver heading to Felicity's car once he'd been shot. None of this was improvised. 

I think it could have been left at "Felicity has a crush on the cute billionaire" if we hadn't seen that Oliver was intrigued and pleased.  Even ending up in Felicity's car could have been left with Felicity joining Team Arrow in an Abby Sciutto (NCIS) role with nothing between Oliver and Felicity. I agree that they were setting up Felicity to be his love interest, especially with the cutting to Felicity when Diggle said Oliver just has to find the right person, but I don't think it had to be that to have included Felicity in the lair.

 

 

I think that since critics and audiences alike recognized from the pilot that L/O was not going to work even briefly, much less provide the scaffolding for Oliver's series long arc, that the prods had to realize it during *production* of the pilot. I think they had to start mentally planning even then.

That makes me feel better, but I'm not sure you're not giving the EPs too much credit.  It seems to me that there was still a fair amount of O/L shippiness when he went to her apartment with ice cream.

Edited April 7, 2015 by statsgirl

[Guest]

I've seen it said both on this site and others, that the problem with Olicity this season hasn't been Oliver x Felicity themselves but rather the extremes the show has gone to to keep them apart. A lot of the angst has been forced and its that fact more than anything that has made it so unbearable to watch because when the show let's them be themselves, when they get it right, it is glorious. So I think the show runners can very much write romance, for Oliver x Felicity at least (that Laurel x Oliver mess just defies explanation) it's when the seek to drag the whole mess out til sweeps and in the process contort themselves and the characters into an unrecognizable mess in the misguided belief that nobody wants to watch a happy couple, that it becomes a problem.

 

THIS.

 

IMO, this season has proved that Oliver and Felicity are better together than apart and I don't even mean in a romantic sense, even though I want that. Oliver makes better decisions when he's communicating to Felicity (and Diggle) and they're actually friends. Along with Digg, she's pretty much his 'person' for want of a better description. When they're in tune, everything else works. The recent episodes when they're finally talking and being a bit flirty have felt like nothing but relief because that's where part of the spark comes from.

 

So yeah. Olicity has never been the problem. It's just the contrived ways of keeping them apart. The execution of it all leaves much to be desired but I can say that about most things this season.

Edited April 7, 2015 by Guest

[steeledwithakiss]

What-the-hell-am-I-feeling?-I-refuse-to-say-its-jealousy-so-we-shall-call-it-Larry is one of my favorite Oliver's. That elevator scene in S1 when he knocks the papers out of that dudes hands and his totally over you attitude with Barry in S2. Classic.

 

Jealous Oliver of S3? That one just hurts. Super proud of him for acknowledging its jealous tho.

Haha it reminds me of that set of gifs in Tumblr where Oliver calls Barry Larry and is heartbroken when Felcity corrects him. Jealous!Oliver was the best because he had no idea what it was he was feeling, just like Barry told him in 1x08 he's rich, handsome, always had any girl he wanted so that jealousy feeling is so foreign to him he can't even identify it.

As for Jealous!Oliver in s3, SA has mastered the kicked puppy look and it's gut wrenching. I loved how he got so angry (probably more with himself) in the lair in 3x07. That's also one the many reasons they've established Olicity as the show love story much more than they ever did with L/O because he never acted that way with her. Sure he kinda helped Ray understand Felicity POV in 3x17 but we could see how it cost him. When Oliver was giving couple advice to T/L he seemed to genuinely want them to work it out. Selfless love is all fine but sometimes it borders more on I want my two oldest friends to work it out rather than I want the love of my life to be happy but I hate that it can't be with me.

Edited April 8, 2015 by steeledwithakiss

[ostentatious]

I think the reason 112 seems like they're on a date is because Oliver rather thought they were. When she wanted to meet, he invited her to his house at first. Come on. He's unsure what this is all about but he would be unsurprised and quite open to the idea if it turned out this was her way of socializing with him. Don't forget, earlier in this very ep was the first time Felicity's babbling indicated sexual attraction to him ("I noticed"). And then she gives him something no one else gives him: trust. He treats her and their relationship like a precious disappearing natural resource that must be protected at all costs from then on.

Imagine you were the showrunners in March 2012, producing the pilot. You have conceptualized a years long narrative in which the hero's Love Interest is INCREDIBLY important to his journey. Vital. This is The Odyssey ffs, Oliver just stayed out at sea even after he got home.

Now imagine shooting the pilot, and realizing over the course of that production (and having this grow every moment thereafter) that your female lead absolutely cannot be your Penelope. She cannot. She can't do it. It doesn't matter why. What matters is that the structure of your entire show depended upon the hero being in love with one woman, who represented Home to him, and his journey was going to be about finally coming in out of the cold and coming Home.

What the actual fuck are you going to do? Holy shit. It's not like you can just come up with a new Penelope next season. This Hero's Journey has been GUTTED. You need a Penelope YESTERDAY.

Then in 103, your Penelope appears, and you grab on with both hands and start negotiating and plotting. It takes a long time to work out the details and set this ship back on course. You have to position your Penelope where she was supposed to be all along. That is no small feat, especially when you consider that your plan was to never do any positioning AT ALL. It was all supposed to be backstory.

Which is dumb, and which is a mistake they made again with The Flash (audiences need to see and care about relationships as they develop) but which was their (bad) plan. They didn't take the entire Arrow lesson with them. Yes, they did better with the casting, but they still built-in the structural problem of expecting people to be invested in a relationship just because they told us to be.

Edited April 7, 2015 by ostentatious

[dtissagirl]

I've missed you, @ostentatious. <3

[doesntworkonwood]

@Ostentatious  That actually leads to a pretty interesting question. 

 

One of the reason why Oliver/Felicity have been so successful is because a lot of fans view Oliver letting Felicity in on his 'secret' as a sign of his trust in her, even from the very beginning. Before they could really kickstart Oliver/Felicity, they had to put Felicity in a position where she was really the only woman who knew Oliver's secret, and therefore the only woman who really knew every aspect of him. 

 

If Felicity was already replacing Laurel as love interest at this point, do you think that there were early plans for Laurel to find out earlier, through Oliver being open with her, that they had to scrap, or do you think Felicity was only let in to the team purely because she was pretty necessary, or maybe a bit of both? 

[steeledwithakiss]

Reminds me of Veronica Mars. How can they expect us to root for a couple that treat each other like strangers just because they were supposedly in love in 2 or 3 flashbacks. In The Flash it's not that bad (at least they are not toxic like L/O) but I think they should have showed us Barry fall in love with Iris in present time. The whole I loved you before I knew what love was is really sweet but we were not there with him. I think the audience needs to connect with the love story. What can work in a movie doesn't always work on TV show. They might have convinced me if they had showed something, I don't know a real happy moment between L/O without the spectre of his cheating or something about how and why they fell in love. Sure Laurel is the love of Oliver's life, apart from when he was partying and sleeping with hundreds of girls and was so scared to move in with her he prefered taking a month long vacation with her sister.

Edited April 8, 2015 by steeledwithakiss

[wonderwall]

Maybe it's because I've spend some time across enemy lines like on reddit and imdb... But Do you guys think that we sometimes overestimate the popularity of Olicity? Because the sites I mentioned are rife with felicity and olicity hate lol and it's not just those sites but other comment sections too

[dtissagirl]

They're pretty popular regardless of bias. That said, I think if you're in a place that is friendly to one pairing above all others, than there's always some overestimating going on at that specific forum. But @wonderwall, the folks on those two specific sites tend to underestimate F/O's importance a whole lot, so they're also tipping the scales.

[SmallScreenDiva]

Maybe it's because I've spend some time across enemy lines like on reddit and imdb... But Do you guys think that we sometimes overestimate the popularity of Olicity? Because the sites I mentioned are rife with felicity and olicity hate lol and it's not just those sites but other comment sections too

 

Judging how popular something is will always be difficult without seeing the numbers. And yes, there are sites/platforms where there may be more hate than love (many haters appear to congregate on reddit and IMDB; while Twitter and Tumblr are definitely good places to find fans). But the way the show is marketed by the network tells me how popular Olicity is: VERY. How big? Only the people who get the data know. But let's just look at the latest sizzle reel. What was most talked about after that aired? Olicity.

 

As for Felicity, well, the network and the EPs must still think her popular enough to use her in a substantial way in crossovers 3 times. More haters are going to come out of the woodwork because Felicity is out there more now -- both in terms of characterization and presence. And she'll get more criticism because more layers of her are being shown. Even some of her own fans might turn because they'd rather prefer she stay the bubbly, babbling girl without complications. I embrace and enjoy what I've seen of Felicity since Day 1. So I don't worry about her and the ship's things. I don't venture into "enemy lines" because, really, what's the point? I'm not going to engage them, I really don't give a single "f" about their opinion. I know what and who I enjoy.

 

Here's something to think about, though. More mainstream media outlets are looking at "Arrow" these days. I'm talking Vulture and Forbes. These are respectable outlets. And guess what the reviewers and recappers on this sites loving? Olicity and Felicity. :)

Edited April 7, 2015 by SmallScreenDiva

[wonderwall]

Yeah I don't get some of their arguments. A lot of them say that felicity has suffered as a character this season because she hasn't contributed much but they talk about how ray and felicity are the better than Oliver and felicity even though ray is pretty much the reason why felicity hasn't been contributing much to Team arrow.

So that part confuses me a lot

[steeledwithakiss]

Didn't they get like 88% in last year's Arrow poll for favorite couple. Not that I think those polls are the be-all for characters popularity but there was definitely no competition. It was 88% O/F and then the 12% was shared between S/O, L/O, T/R,... with S/O being the most popular.

[kismet]

It is hard to say without the numbers. But the general media and entertainment reporters tend to report on Oliver/Felicity dynamic. TVline & Eonline consistently have them in articles. They are also constantly brought up in couple polls/contests even though for all intense purposes, they've never been officially declared a couple. I don't heavily follow the comic-con press, but from what is brought to this forum, it seems like Oliver/Felicity dynamic is what people tend to talk about frequently & bring up on Q&As there. MG tends to address questions & answer unrelated questions in relation to O/F, so that also gives it some acknowledgement. Even the haters hating are proof to a certain degree about the popularity. The opposite of love is not hate, its apathy. So until I see people being apathetic, it means the pairing still has power.

 

So its out there in the mainstream. The people on this forum are more favorable to the pairing than other websites, but I don't believe that means we overestimate the importance/popularity. I think even if those of us favor it, we also try to be balanced in our critiques. I think this season has proven though that nothing is bulletproof despite its popularity. The Arrow audience is smart & some of the stuff the writers have tried to pull over us has been just down right stupid. Its not just the pairing that has been taken it on the nose this season because of a case of the stupids, it is also the individual characterizations. I thoroughly enjoy the pairing. But at the end of the day I still want an Oliver & Felicity that I enjoy separately and the writers have been hit or miss this season on delivering them individually this season.

[NoWayOut]

One of the biggest things TPTB absolutely nailed with Oliver and Felicity was that the audience got to witness the beginning of Olicity. We got to see them meet and the way their relationship gradually developed since their first meeting. They established that there's a solid foundation based on trust and friendship there, and because of that it's easy to believe Felicity when she says she knows Oliver better than almost anyone. However, Laurel's "I know you like I know my own name" and that other comment about knowing who Oliver is in his bones were eye-roll worthy because huh? What? How? When? Where? What'd I miss?

[statsgirl]

Yeah I don't get some of their arguments. A lot of them say that felicity has suffered as a character this season because she hasn't contributed much but they talk about how ray and felicity are the better than Oliver and felicity even though ray is pretty much the reason why felicity hasn't been contributing much to Team arrow.

When she's with Oliver this season, Felicity has mostly been either crying or bitchy.  It's bad writing in service of the stupid Oliver Identity plot, which gets worse and worse as the season goes on.  (Thank you, Robert Dougherty (warning: spoilery).)

 

With Ray, most of it's been if not fun, at least without angst.  So that's more attractive to the audience who hasn't been hooked by Olicity before this season, and some people who don't want Felicity with Oliver at all for various reasons.

 

When she's allow to be light, Felicity is a very popular character in general.  If they let her be that again with Oliver, Olicity will be more popular again.

[lemotomato]

I think polls are more reflective of how passionate a fanbase is, not necessarily of its size. I have no doubt that Olicity fans are more than willing to put in the time to publicize the pairing (see the Twitter trends every week and the E!Online poll), but I think that outside of this forum and tumblr, they're not necessarily the biggest portion of the viewers.

Edited April 7, 2015 by lemotomato

[NoWayOut]

Yeah I don't get some of their arguments. A lot of them say that felicity has suffered as a character this season because she hasn't contributed much but they talk about how ray and felicity are the better than Oliver and felicity even though ray is pretty much the reason why felicity hasn't been contributing much to Team arrow.

So that part confuses me a lot

I mean, I've seen people talk about how Oliver and Felicity are so forced but in the same breath think Ray and Felicity are so not forced and are meant to be. Most of them also happens to be comic books fans. Not transparent at all.

[Sakura12]

As a non-shipper I don't care one way or the other when it comes to them. And sometimes all the Olicity talk bores me but that just shows that they are most talked about thing on Arrow. I also think that most of the Con questions being about Olicity shows how popular that pairing is over anything else going on with the show. There is also the other actors on the show acknowledging Olicity's popularity. 

 

IMDB and Reddit also seem to be pro-Laurel which will make them hate on Felicity. As this site is mostly pro-everyone except Laurel and now Ray. 

[lemotomato]

I mean, I've seen people talk about how Oliver and Felicity are so forced but in the same breath think Ray and Felicity are so not forced and are meant to be. Most of them also happens to be comic books fans. Not transparent at all.

Of course Raylicity wasn't forced. It's not like Ray only Interacted with Felicity and no other main character for most of his episodes. Oh wait...

Chemistry is subjective, but let's not ignore the obvious. Most anti-Olicity sentiment come from "because comics!" fans. Some of it is because Oliver and Felicity have been fighting all this season rather than being partners in seasons 1-2.

Edited April 7, 2015 by lemotomato

[steeledwithakiss]

I agree that shippers are usually very passionate, that's why the EPs are always trolling them, but why aren't the ones that ship T/R or L/O for example more vocal? I think it's safe to say that those couples don't have that much following (i.e they are not that popular) or people enjoy them but don't really care if they are together or not, interacting or not. Ofc we can't forget that the online audience is just maybe 10% of the total audience (a show on the CW tends to have more presence online than other shows) but just like any poll it's a good barometer (crossed with other datas). What we can't deny is that O/F get people talking, and that's probably all that matters to the TPTB.

Edited April 7, 2015 by steeledwithakiss

[Genki]

I think when it comes to fan generated buzz, Fanfic, Fanvids & Tumblr gifs Olicity is big, search result numbers will be much lower for non Olicity stuff. I think that drew a few new viewers in, even some here have said they were curious because of Tumblr's gifs. 

 

For the suits that is awesome, free buzz and publicity, etc.

 

Not to mention critics and other media.

 

Olicity also brings in "the more", relying solely on the fans of the original material for the audience, isn't enough for Hollywood, they always want more. Similar to what the reporter was saying about SA being cast in TMNT. (Article was in the media thread.)

 

Felicity makes a great foil for Oliver and they are partners in many ways and can be partners in all sense of the word if the Writers would let it happen, I think they elevate the show and I think if the drama wasn't so manufactured this season, more would respond positively to Olicity.

 

Like @ststagirl said

 

 

When she's allow to be light, Felicity is a very popular character in general.  If they let her be that again with Oliver, Olicity will be more popular again.

[kismet]

I think polls are more reflective of how passionate a fanbase is, not necessarily of its size. I have no doubt that Olicity fans are more than willing to put in the time to publicize the pairing (see the Twitter trends every week and the E!Online poll), but I think that outside of this forum and tumblr, they're not necessarily the biggest portion of the viewers.

Fair point. I think that sites are willing to include them to some degree acknowledges the relationship is mainstream and not just a obscure fan pairing. And winning these awards/polls is more a testament to passion and fan perseverance, not necessarily size. Although how passionate a fan base does appeal to networks, EPs & advertisers if they think they can profit from their passion.

 

But I think the biggest portion of viewers just want a good story with good characters. Give that to them and people will get on board. There are passionate bases of the Arrow fandom that absolutely love some stuff and hate some stuff, that's just the nature of fandoms. I want Oliver & Felicity together. But if they were to not get together or break up seasons down the road and it was believable & well-written I could get on board with that. But the key is it has to be well written and not just because the PLOT dictates that these people should not be together until sweeps or some other plot restrictive time frame. Nothing about the sustained distance between O/F has felt authentic or realistic this season, its been all plot. So that is why people may be responding to O/F & R/F in ways that are confusing, its all been plot for the majority of the season.

[Chaser]

There is no way to know if the majority of the audience prefers Olicity or not unless they talk to every single audience member. The network though must have confidence in Olicity because it's a heavy part of their promotion. What did they do to promote the S2 DVDs? They sent advanced copies out to Olicity fans on Tumblr. What was in the previews for 3.01? Felicity getting hurt, Olicity flirting and the their kiss. What was featured heavily in last promo? Olicity sex. What do news outlets tease the audience with? Olicity. If Olicity was such an internet thing, we wouldn't see them featured in mainstream promotion. It would be twitter and tumblr.

 

Sites like Reddit and IMDB have always been anti-Olicity/Felicity. Some hardcore comic purists? Same thing. Nothing is new there. As for comment sections, I have no doubt that as soon as Oliver and Felicity are back to a good place the audience will be too. I noticed that with The Offer. Felicity was in the Foudry and her and Oliver were back to S2 interaction. It got a positive response.

[Guest]

I think people might overestimate the importance of online popularity or hate tbh. Just because people love or hate something online doesn't mean casual viewers feel the same way. And in the case of Olicity, I know many casual viewers who love them - they just don't tweet or read spoilers or comment on forums about them. They should still be taken into account. But then the same applies to hated characters too. Just because we dislike them doesn't mean the casual audience feels the same. It's all relative I think.

Edited April 7, 2015 by Guest

[ostentatious]

I don't think Laurel would've found out earlier, no, because I think their plan (like with Iris/Barry) is that the hero keeps his True Love in the dark. I think Felicity found out early because they realized that Laurel couldn't be that True Love, so they changed the plan entirely, and lbr Olicity together in ANY capacity was pure gold, so they wanted them together constantly. Since they established Laurel, they had a shorthand in place for her position wrt Oliver, so they didn't have to build in a "getting to know you" period. So, there was a driver for Felicity to be involved in his work. 

 

I think what actually matters is that non-fandom viewers make up the vast majority of the audience, and while not "passionate" about Olicity, would be baffled at the suggestion that there's any doubt in anyone's minds who the main couple of the show are. And they've felt that way since she appeared, since unless you came burdened with awareness of comics, their relationship looked like the intended romance from the start. They spent no time or effort on L/O. They gave them no "good times" flashbacks to try to establish their connection. I think they gave them exactly one flashback that was there to show them liking each other, and that was VERY early in the run. After that they were always to show how terrible they were together. Yet O/F have been together constantly since The Odyssey. Interesting that that's the ep where he found his way to his Penelope. 

 

If you are just doing a content analysis of the show, without being tainted with outside knowledge of non-show things, this looks like an intentional friends-to-lovers romance from the moment she appeared. That doesn't mean they were in love from the moment she appeared. Because that's what a friends-to-lovers romance *IS*. If they aren't friends first, it's not f-2-l. 

Edited April 7, 2015 by ostentatious

[looptab]

But, if you think they realized that early that L/O wasn't going to work, then why did they give them moments like the "Those five years didn't change me, they revealed the person you always saw" convo?( I don't remember if there were other meaningful conversations such as that, this is the only one that comes to mind at the moment, ahah). Not trying to argue, BTW, I'm just really interested in your take on this.

Honestly it's something that bugs me a little, the fact that they gave Oliver moments of vulnerability with pretty much every woman he banged. Helena, McKenna, Sara, even Isabel.

Edited April 8, 2015 by looptab