Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

Orion · August 6, 2014

Yes, I get why Felicity joined the team. I think they've shown us her motivations well enough. The mystery (for me anyway) is more that she took the news of Oliver being the vigilante so calmly. She didn't appear to have a moment where she considered telling anyone - even Laurel considered telling her father when she thought that information could be used as leverage in his situation, and she's known Oliver far longer. And yet Felicity trusted him when she had no reason to do so and she protected his identity by ordering the blood sample destroyed without even being asked. I've always been curious about her past and how it's influenced her current choices, how and why she learned so much about hacking, etc. I'm hoping her backstory touches on some of these things.

I think with Felicity learning Oliver's secret and why she took it as well as she did was that she was slowly adding up the pieces on her own so it didn't come out of the left field the way it did for Laurel. Laurel spent season one telling Oliver that there is no way he could be the vigilante because he's trying to help people and that's not Oliver's style. Meanwhile Felicity was solving the mystery of her billionaire boss who was bringing her laptops with bullets, arrows, syringes full of a mystery substance and a password protect key fob that exposed armored truck robberies. She also had Walter bring her a note book from inside the Queen mansion that had names the Arrow was targeting in it. So Felicity was already on to him with his huge lies and when Oliver appeared in the back of car it was the final pieces of the puzzle coming together but I think she would have figured it out on her with a little more time. For those reason I don't think it was a gut wrenching discovery for Felicity, by then it was more of, "Oh! Of course you are the vigilante," moment. Laurel wasn't trying to find out who the Arrow was at that point, in fact, other than using him to try to get the information on Blood, Laurel didn't seem to give the Arrow much thought until Slade told her who he was. Another poor decision imo the writers handing over Oliver's identity to Laurel without her earning it or him needing to tell her.

The scene in the lair where she's talking to Diggle I think is the same as Laurel going to her father. Felicity looks at Diggle and sees a man who should be bothered by what the Arrow is doing but he isn't. She's bouncing the morality of what Oliver is doing off someone who she believes is a moral person. You can almost see Felicity stop and really process what it is that Oliver and Diggle are doing and how they are helping the city as Dig tells his story about Afghanistan. She also has nothing to gain by exposing them. Laurel can secure Quentin's release from jail by exposing Oliver.

Another part of that lair interaction between Dig and Felicity is when she finds out that they took down Vertigo. She says, "that was you and Oliver," and Diggle response, "and you Felicity." She's shown how she has helped in the past without even being aware she was helping, so hacking the SCPD to destroy Oliver's blood sample is just her trying to continue to be helpful.

IA that how she became an expert Hacker in the past is something I really want to know about and I'm hoping they deal with it maybe when

they flashback to her time at MIT.

.

hogwash · August 6, 2014

Despite my general annoyance with a good chunk of s02, I think the show did a pretty good job with Oliver/Felicity's relationship. It was a relatively effective combination of developing/building the relationship and using the relationship as a vehicle for building/developing the individual characters. I'm not gonna try to guess when Oliver/Felicity fell in love with each other (I've tried. I honestly haven't no clue). But I can appreciate that s02 did a good job of setting up that both characters are in love and interested in pursuing a romantic relationship with each other. Whereas before the s02 finale, I kinda understood that they were both (probably...maybe) interested but hesitant to voice/commit to said interest (probably...maybe).

Felicity kinda tiptoed around it when Oliver apologized in 2x10 ("Does this mean I have a shot.......at employee-of-the-month?" Real subtle, Felicity). But she doesn't push it other than that because it's unthinkable to her. Which makes sense because Oliver is cagey as hell about it. Plus she still kinda sees herself as his employee/subordinate, which fits with her interactions with other "important people" (Moira/Walter/Laurel/OIiver before the Undertaking). Even in s02 when she interacts with Moira/Walter/Laurel, she's very aware of the boundaries and tries (failing at times because of her social quirks) to be very appropriate and somewhat deferential with them. It's not that she's insecure or thinks these people are out of her league or better. It's just her default. Obviously, she's not like that with Oliver because she gets to know him and regularly interacts with him after joining Team Arrow. But, that underlying default still colors some of their interactions (2x10, 2x12, 2x14) when she's unsure of her place or how she should react. Plus, as the Arrow, Oliver's even more *in charge* than he was as the boss's stepson/attractive weirdo who had her doing research under flimsy premises.

With Oliver, it's clear that he already knew by 2x06 that he was interested, but realized that (1)he wasn't in a position (mentally, etc.) and (2)it would be disastrous and monumentally stupid to go for it. State v. Queen makes him realize that he's a lot deeper than interested, which (rightfully) freaks him out. Then he's really different with Felicity in the next couple of episodes (these are the episodes people usually say are Olicity pandering) before the Sara lunge. He basically struggles to figure out how to compartmentalize his feelings enough to find the right "box" to put her in. This partly why he tells her she's his partner in 2x10. She's definitely a part of Team Arrow and one of the "only two that matter", but his partner? Like Diggle (and eventually Sara)? Not at all by that point in the season. He's not consciously/mostly lying when he says it, but he does say and use it as a way of keeping his feelings in check.

Over the course of s02, both characters work out their feelings in their respective corners until they become comfortable enough with themselves/those feelings to meet each other halfway and accept the idea of being together as something real. Looking at s02 as a whole, it's kinda amazing how many of the Oliver/Felicity moments were basically threads that would later be used to defeat Slade and set off a new chapter in the characters' relationship (plus, I'll admit, some good old-fashioned shipper pandering). It all tied in: 2x01, 2x06, 2x07, 2x10, 2x13, 2x14 (if you squint). Then the finale was about both of them fully realizing their 2x10 exchange with Oliver actually putting his money where his mouth is and Felicity actually moving past her *underling* mentality to see herself as partner/equal. It all worked very well in my view and built nicely on their relationship in s01. Hopefully, it will continue in s03 *fingers crossed*.

EDIT: With 2x14, it's less about squinting and more about understanding what the show was trying to do and accepting that it failed miserably...I freaking hate that episode.

Edited August 6, 2014 by hogwash

Ceylon5 · August 7, 2014

This partly why he tells her she's his partner in 2x10. She's definitely a part of Team Arrow and one of the "only two that matter", but his partner? Like Diggle (and eventually Sara)? Not at all by that point in the season. He's not consciously/mostly lying when he says it, but he does say and use it as a way of keeping his feelings in check.

I actually don't agree with this (perhaps we define 'partner' a bit differently). Yes, Felicity's role is different to that of Sara and Diggle's in that she's more the 'behind-the-scenes' person rather than on the front lines. And yes, in the finale, Oliver was willing to put her on the front lines (though not for the first time by a long shot). But I don't believe that made her any more or less of a partner than she'd been before. Her role is just as vital as anyone else's, even if she is more vulnerable physically, and I think she was his partner right from season one when she first agreed to join the team - for example, when he'd ask her if she was okay with him going after some specific bad guy, that was the act of one partner deferring to another. He listens to her and co-operates with her in the same way he does with Diggle. All three of them have on occasion gone off on their own or disagreed with the others, but I do think that overall, for all Oliver is technically the Arrow, they work as a unit of three partners. Towards the end of the season, Oliver said "It started with the three of us", which makes me think that he feels that way too. Before Diggle and Felicity joined him, he was just a murderer with an agenda; with them, Arrow has come into being. That's definitely not what would have happened if he'd stayed on his own.

To me, the Arrowcave has never been Oliver's sole domain. When Diggle agreed to join him, it was as a partner, not an employee - that was his day job, sure, but at night, in the cave, they were equals. Ditto for Felicity. In the first season she wasn't even Oliver's employee in her day job - he didn't even work at QC at that point, and she initially did him favours from time to time because of who his parents were (plus the "flirty-flirt" thing didn't hurt). In the second season, when he made her his EA, he described it as "cover", and the whole coffee thing was their way of showing that it wasn't really an employee-employer relationship at all. They were a team and she (quite reasonably) resented the undercover role she'd been allocated. Yes, QC paid her salary, but I don't think that equates to Oliver paying her salary or being her boss. Felicity redecorating the cave and designing Oliver a new bow were the actions of a partner; and her and Diggle fetching him from the island was something partners do. She acts as she sees fit, just as the other two do, and I think she gets her own way just as often as Oliver does, meaning they both have to compromise sometimes. They trust and depend on each other in a way that has never seemed even remotely employer-subordinate to me. The "employee of the month" thing was, IMO, on a par with Diggle's "black driver" dig (excuse the pun!); not to be taken literally, but a way to lighten the moment with a facetious comment.

So, long story longer, I think the reason why "Team Arrow: Original Recipe" resonates so well with viewers is precisely because it has always been a partnership, with all three having equal say and getting to crap on or comfort each other as needed. Each one has their own special skill set which complements the others' (e.g. when Oliver made unhelpful suggestions to Felicity while she was working, she responded "Oliver, do I tell you how to sharpen your arrows?") and they all have a say in Team Arrow activities. Oliver can be an idiot at times, and does try to bull-doze over the others (usually unsuccessfully), but just because he's sometimes a jackass doesn't mean that the others aren't his partners.

I think this is partly why the addition of other people isn't always as welcomed by audiences. Roy is a mentee and side-kick, which does seem more of a subordinate role than, say, Diggle's. This throws the balance off slightly and will need to be worked through. Conversely, Sara is a superhero in her own right, which means that she's actually doubling up on Oliver's skill-set. Though this isn't necessarily a bad thing, it does also create unbalance, and makes the show all about superheroes doing cool stuff together rather than the more team-oriented approach of the original three (and deflecting some focus from Oliver as the show's superhero). So having her there changes the tone of the group and is perhaps better in small quantities than as a permanent thing.

(Social awkwardness or shyness don't necessarily translate into an "underling mentality", so I can't say I've ever thought of Felicity in this light, but I'll respond to that part of your post in Felicity's thread.)

hogwash · August 7, 2014

I actually don't agree with this (perhaps we define 'partner' a bit differently). [snip]

Sara does her own thing. While Dig/Oliver's s01 development was more about Oliver learning how

to not be a giant dick

share his one man crusade and support Diggle. Oliver/Diggle/Sara have had similar experiences. They share in the same risks and work together for the sake of their mutual interests/benefits (when, ideally, Oliver's not being a giant dick). I think that the show took strides to show and acknowledge that it's not the same with Oliver/Felicity. The role she plays on Team Arrow is different from Oliver/Diggle/Sara but equally as valuable. But, outside of that role (and sometimes within it), there's always been a huge asterisk. 2x14 (bleh) was supposed to show some of this. Felicity goes out alone and Oliver is against it and doesn't even bother waiting for an explanation before he's telling Dig to get her out of there. Even though, her being there makes sense and would probably work. Even though it was the only real option after Tockman fried everything. (I'm probably over thinking some things but I seriously love them for working this all into the finale!)

I do think Felicity sees herself as an underling/subordinate. Her blowup at Oliver in 2x10 is fairly similar to when she blows up at Walter in s01. She knows when she's being treated unfairly and doesn't tolerate it. She sticks up for herself. However, when Oliver apologizes and tells her she's a vital part of his mission and she takes it as praise for being really good at her job and even refers to herself as an employee. I could buy it as a reference to being Oliver's QC secretary but both of them know that that's just a cover and the quip was in direct response to Oliver telling her that he relies on her and Diggle and couldn't be the Arrow without them.

Since s01 and for a big chunk of s02, Oliver/Felicity's relationship has always been uneven and the balance was tipped overwhelmingly in Oliver's favor both in/outside the show. My rambling post was basically me trying to explain that my appreciation for how s02 incorporated this imbalance within the general progression of their relationship and let the resolution of the imbalance play a big part in defeating the s02 villain and setting up the s03 romance. I wasn't opposed to a romantic Oliver/Felicity relationship when I started the show after the Flash episodes, but I couldn't see it happening for several seasons because their relationship was incredibly lopsided to me. In s01, a big part of that (besides Felicity going undercover in the underground casino) was Oliver telling her to leave the Foundry during the Undertaking. It was extremely shortsighted and frankly, a dumb thing to even suggest. It would have been near impossible for Diggle/Lt. Lance to disarm the earthquake device without her guidance. But Oliver brought her in so his default mode is "protect her/keep her safe." I only saw this getting worse if romantic feelings became involved. Episodes like 2x06 and 2x07 only made this more apparent to me. I don't equate being Oliver's partner with ass-kicking ability or the ability to handle oneself in the field (unlike freaking 2x14), but I do see being equals is a big part of it. Obviously, it's not a perfect definition, but I think considering the work they do, it's a very important distinction. Despite the 2x10 exchange, I still didn't see Oliver/Felicity as equals (I don't think the show did either considering what happened in 2x14). They were closer to it than they were in s01, but very far from where the s02 finale would eventually put them.

I think this is partly why the addition of other people isn't always as welcomed by audiences. Roy is a mentee and side-kick, which does seem more of a subordinate role than, say, Diggle's. [snip]

The Roy/Sara addition would have worked better if the show had bothered to spend time incorporating them into Team Arrow like they did with Diggle/Felicity in s01. There weren't many meaningful interactions between Sara/Felicity/Diggle after 2x04-2x05. Roy got nothing after his initial intro (probably less than that considering the disappearing act and the coma). They spent several episodes in s01 having Diggle/Oliver circle each other and find their groove as proto-Team Arrow. After Oliver reveals himself to Felicity, the rest of the episode focused on letting Diggle/Felicity talk and figure it out. The next episode was about letting Oliver/Felicity doing the same. Then, every episode afterwards lets the team build/develop from there and switches between different Oliver/Felicity/Diggle interactions. In the rush of s02, this progression that happened over the course of several episodes in s01 was whittled down to *in the Foundry* = *on Team Arrow* (unless your name is Laurel Lance, of course).

With Roy, it was particularly egregious, but his Arrow fanboying/Mirakuru raging was kinda(?) a foundation for him joining Team Arrow. With Sara, they didn't even bother trying to explain why would want to be on Team Arrow (I would have taken anything. I really wanted to learn more about her). It's still weird how she jumped onto Team Arrow right after leaving the League. She had her own thing going in the Clocktower. She didn't seem to care all that much about Starling City or its criminals outside of the her family and misogynists, respectively. The episode before she was screaming in pain and fury because her mother and family were being threatened by the League (I'm going to resist the urge to go into another incoherent Oliver/Sara/Laurel/Lance family rant...). By the next episode, she's hanging out in the foundry, helping team arrow catch some dude robbing banks. A top priority for an international assassin, apparently.

wonderwall · August 8, 2014

I'm hoping the Arrow writers defy all CW 'logic' and tropes and have Felicity and Oliver have a Tammy/Coach Eric Taylor-esque relationship. It's probably the healthiest relationship I've ever seen on television and I think it'll be completely refreshing to see especially in a show like this.

For those of you who don't know the reference, you must watch Friday Night Lights :'). Don't be fooled by all the football, I personally hate football but LOVE that show!

TanyaKay · August 8, 2014

I'm hoping the Arrow writers defy all CW 'logic' and tropes and have Felicity and Oliver have a Tammy/Coach Eric Taylor-esque relationship. It's probably the healthiest relationship I've ever seen on television and I think it'll be completely refreshing to see especially in a show like this.

For those of you who don't know the reference, you must watch Friday Night Lights :'). Don't be fooled by all the football, I personally hate football but LOVE that show!

I do agree with you.

Let's end the drama with romance, settle that and focus on the super hero bit because at the end of the day, it is the super hero show. And while the slow burn and romance between Oliver and Felicity has been sweet and refreshing (no one jumped anyone in the space of two episodes and a date), keeping them apart after them acknowledging their feelings for each other would be unnecessary.

wonderwall · August 8, 2014

I also feel as though if Oliver/Felicity have a healthy long term relationship, it will put all the haters to bed and end a lot of the ship wars happening right now. While it does make noise, the noise is unnecessary and pointless because I think the audience and the media knows which relationship is going to be the best one (out of all potential relationships Oliver can have). Hey, it might even lead people to accept them because they are so healthy...

Why else would they accept them? Because Felicity would never hold Oliver back, she would always be by his side Arrow or not and that's not something I can see with any of the other characters. Oliver wouldn't feel the need to give up his crime-fighting life in order to be with her as he has with Laurel and McKenna (which is an insanely huge step for him, even though it's temporary) because Felicity will be right there fighting crime with him. Felicity is a silent hero, and one that keeps Oliver in check. She doesn't need to be kicking butt next to him as long as she guides him with her expertise through the comms.

I hope the EPs and writers do right by the blossoming relationship between Oliver and Felicity. I hope they don't take them for granted like some other shows have carelessly done to a lot of relationships.

I don't know why I expect a lot out of Arrow, but this show seems to be great at starting trends (even if it is within the CW)

Edited August 8, 2014 by wonderwall

calliope1975 · August 8, 2014

Yes @wonderwall. No angst, just support and keeping each other in check (probably Felicity moreso with Oliver.)

AnalyzeAndCritique · August 8, 2014

I'm hoping the Arrow writers defy all CW 'logic' and tropes and have Felicity and Oliver have a Tammy/Coach Eric Taylor-esque relationship. It's probably the healthiest relationship I've ever seen on television and I think it'll be completely refreshing to see especially in a show like this.

For those of you who don't know the reference, you must watch Friday Night Lights :'). Don't be fooled by all the football, I personally hate football but LOVE that show!

Where can I ship your award for winning the internet today? Best thing I've read in a long time!

wonderwall · August 8, 2014

@AnalyzeAndCritique, please ship any and all awards to P. Sherman 42 Wallaby Way, Sydney.

Your consideration is much appreciated.

[PS. can we all just appreciate just how amazing Tammy/Eric were!?]

AnalyzeAndCritique · August 8, 2014

I adore all things FNL. There is a large piece of my heart reserved for Coach and Tammy. Olicity might take a bit of their piece if they avoid the CW crap.

Edited August 8, 2014 by AnalyzeAndCritique

wonderwall · August 8, 2014

I highly doubt that will happen unfortunately :/ CW is still the CW regardless of the fact that they're trying to rebrand their image. But I remain a tad bit optimistic! I mean, once Oliver and Felicity get together, I don't see how or why they would break up (unless Felicity dies *knocks on wood*) without either of them looking like idiots.

Also this is my very tiny list of most functional no-nonsense couples on TV I adore:

Coach & Tammy (FNL)
Adam & Kristina (Parenthood)
Jim & Pam (Office)
Monica & Chandler (Friends)
Mulder & Scully (X Files)
Jesse & Becky (Full House) (My childhood :'))
Leslie & Ben (Parks)
Ron & Diane (Parks)

These are pretty much the only relationships where I saw no petty drama, no cheating, no break-ups and make-ups after they got serious... I would just LOVE to add Oliver and Felicity to this list. I really would. Any list with Coach and Ron Swanson isn't a bad list to be on :')

Edited August 8, 2014 by wonderwall

AnalyzeAndCritique · August 8, 2014

I highly doubt that will happen unfortunately :/ CW is still the CW regardless of the fact that they're trying to rebrand their image. But I remain a tad bit optimistic! I mean, once Oliver and Felicity get together, I don't see how or why they would break up (unless Felicity dies *knocks on wood*) without either of them looking like idiots.

Also in my very tiny list of most functional no-nonsense couples on TV I adore:

Coach & Tammy (FNL)

Adam & Kristina (Parenthood)

Jim & Pam (Office)

Monica & Chandler (Friends)

Mulder & Scully (X Files)

Jesse & Becky (Full House) (My childhood :'))

Leslie & Ben (Parks)

Ron & Diane (Parks)

These are pretty much the only relationships where I saw no petty drama, no cheating, no break-ups and make-ups after they got serious... I would just LOVE to add Oliver and Felicity to this list. I really would. Any list with Coach and Ron Swanson isn't a bad list to be on :')

Jesse and Becky! Be still my 12 year old heart. LOL

I don't see why there needs to be drama with Olicity. It'll be telling to see how they handle

the date and subsequent Ray "relationship."

I don't think Olicity needs to be wrought with drama. I'd love for Felicity to sign out at night after a mission and remind Oliver they need milk or some such domestic simplicity.

wonderwall · August 8, 2014

I don't mind seeing drama before Oliver and Felicity get together, it's just afterwards that I do mind. And not the type of drama normal couples go through (random arguments, Oliver says something stupid and Felicity doesn't take his shit, maybe even them dealing with loss together) as long as they go through all that drama as a unit. Will I mind seeing them lose footing once in a while? Nope, because all normal couples do. But I don't want to see flamboyant drama where Oliver cheats on Felicity or Felicity does something completely OOC that betrays Oliver etc. That I won't fathom.

In order to see Oliver grow as a person (and I don't give a damn if he's not as mature in the comics), I want to see him have a normal, healthy relationship with someone. Why? Because I believe our Oliver is capable of being more than a playboy Arrow. And he deserves someone as good as Felicity (or at least he's on the path to deserving someone as good as her). Is it bad that I want the best for Oliver? I mean his life has just been really shitty so far.

Ceylon5 · August 9, 2014

In so far as relationship power dynamics are concerned, I feel that post-island Oliver is almost always on the losing end of this equation. Not only does he have a secret identity to protect, but he's also arguably the most damaged, broken, dysfunctional character on the show and no amount of money or brawn can offset this. He has an understandably frantic and desperate need to prevent the loss of any more people he cares about, and his obsessive over-protectiveness has caused damage in pretty much every relationship he has. He's a very lonely, emotionally needy man.

This is especially true with Diggle and Felicity. When they first found out about him, obviously they had the power to turn him in if they chose. Later, by the time they had become so invested in Team Arrow that it was as much their crusade as Oliver's, Oliver's need had progressed from practical to emotional. He was the one who couldn't deal with the loss of Tommy and needed to be brought back off the island by his friends. He was the one who needed Diggle and Felicity by his side 24/7, and couldn't cope when Felicity went away for a few days. I do think they're both very emotionally invested as well, and Felicity in particular feels that Oliver and Diggle are like her family, but I'd still say that in terms of sheer neediness, Oliver wins hands down. And the less needy person always has more power in a relationship.

Based on pre-island Oliver, I'd say Oliver's default emotional behaviour is passive-aggressiveness. Instead of saying how he feels about something important like moving in with his girlfriend (i.e. I'm not ready for that), he tells her yes, and then torpedoes his relationship in the most obvious way he can think of. He's never seemed to be the dominant one in his romances, which may explain his cheating (i.e. a passive-aggressive protest against being dominated) and also why his girlfriends always end up breaking up with him, not the other way around. He's clearly not good at communicating his emotional needs, which is why he always seems so stoic and closed off (this is a weakness, not a strength; Felicity's babbling is far more healthy than Oliver's silence). The truth comes out of him in bursts of temper or controlling behaviour. Felicity and Diggle's strength is that they understand Oliver and know how to deal with his emotional retardation. Felicity and Oliver both love each other, but he's in very real danger (and has almost died in front of her) far more often than she is, but she copes with the constant stress of this infinitely better than he does. She's just a lot better adjusted and stable than he is. In their relationship, therefore, I think she will always be the stronger one (emotionally speaking, obviously), for all her quirks.

Anyway, clearly I'm giving all this far too much thought! But I join you all in the hope that when Felicity and Oliver do get together, they stay together, with no stupid shenanigans.

Edited August 9, 2014 by Ceylon5

wingster55 · August 9, 2014

Ugh...FNL feels. That perfect couple (and damn near perfect show)

I wouldn't mind them being as solid as that couple. Though to that list I'd add

Turk/Carla (Scrubs)

(Also Niles/Daphne, The Huxtables)

Edited August 9, 2014 by wingster55

wonderwall · August 9, 2014

@wingster55, I'd replace Turk/Carla with Turk/JD... I mean they're a little married aren't they? :p

statsgirl · August 9, 2014

It strikes me that most of those couples are from comedy shows, not dramas, and of the dramas Mulder and Scully never did get together in the TV show. Either it's much harder to write good couples for dramas or writers are afraid of doing so because they think it will lessen the show.

I loved the Coach/Tammy relationship. It was realistic, they loved each other and while they had their fights but they worked their way back to each other in the end.

Three other couples come to mind: Hart To Hart, Sheridan/Delenn on Babylon 5 and Dax/Worf on ST:DS:9 (a relationship that I always thought was the perfect example of opposites being together). All three of these shows are genre shows, with the primary focus being the action story and the relationship a sideline.

Just like Arrow. If the EPs remember that the vigilante story is the story of the show, and keep stupid drama out of the relationship stuff once they are together, I don't see why it couldn't work.

DrSpaceman10 · August 9, 2014

There's so much other stuff happening on Arrow that romantic relationships only take up a few minutes an episode (if that). In my opinion, if you have a couple like Oliver/Felicity who have so much chemistry, respect, trust, (love?) you don't need all the drama to keep the relationship compelling.

Edited August 9, 2014 by drspaceman10

wonderwall · August 9, 2014

@DrSpaceman10, exactly! Arrow is such a fast paced show filled with an almost superfluous amount of drama that I feel like if Oliver/Felicity do have a stable relationship, it would be the one thing that would ground the show and make it more relatable. It would be a nice change to have a moment of calm embedded in 42 minutes of fast-paced plot progression/writing/drama. And I feel like Oliver/Felicity could be that calm

DrSpaceman10 · August 9, 2014

I don't know if this has been posted before, but here's a nice piece on Olicity and The Moonlighting Curse:

http://smoakandarrow.tumblr.com/post/87469110464/from-the-ask-box-olicity-the-moonlighting-curse

Nanrad · August 9, 2014

stats, define getting together (Mulder/Scully). ;-)

Well, I think they were together in some sense even if it wasn't traditional. They started having regular sex in the 7th season because they were way too flirty with each other and, by the 9th, there had to be some commitment of some sort. Scully's writing letters to Mulder and signing off with some variation of "Always yours, Dana/Love Dana/or whatever". Even if we don't go with them actually being together, there were times where they were jealous of other people, but they both dealt with it in mature manners--like adults.

dtissagirl · August 9, 2014

The X-Files for me is the. one. show. that was scared shitless of the Moonlighting curse. So they teased and implied and told us things, but never actually showed the romantic storyline. We could imply they were together in S7, but it was always subtext. They had a baby, but they made everything about that as ambiguous as they could. Things might have been more clear in S8 and S9, but Duchovny wasn't even there for most of it, so it was easier to make it more romantic when they actively couldn't show it for the lack of 50% of the pair on screen.

To bring this back to Arrow, I think these writers are wary of romance because it really gotta sting when you have an idea for a show -- a 5 year plan, even -- that included [their idea of] star-crossed lovers getting over a terrible betrayal, and the vast majority of the audience was turned off by it. And then the same audience was negative-to-lukewarm about Oliver/Sara in S2. They got lucky with EBR/Felicity coming in just in time for the audience to have a lady character to root for, but I understand them wanting to go super duper slow with Oliver/Felicity because they want to get it right this time.

Plus, I also believe Oliver is not at all ready for a healthy relationship yet. He needs this extra season to get his head straight. And Felicity shouldn't be just sitting pretty waiting for him to figure everything out, so I'm OK if she gets another romantic interest. But I agree with @wonderwall - after they get together, this is it, stop bringing other people between them. They can have plenty of drama as a couple without it ever being stuff that threatens their relationship. Stick to the stuff that threatens their lives instead, and we're good. :)

foreverevolving · August 9, 2014

Doug and Carol on ER (because I love them, and they are never not a good example :-P).

I mean sure, yea, there was a bit of drama- extremely mild compered to most shows today- but each time it was used to solidify and push their relationship to the next level. it never felt like drama or an obstacle simply for the sake of it, it always felt like it was naturally happening; it was always connected to who they were, their personal fears, as well as their shared history as a couple pre-show. And it always got resolved in the same episode, or the next one. also i can literally count on one hand the number of those "drama" things that happened in the course of the year half they were together. and it never took over the show.

if anyone watched ER, hopefully you know what i am talking about. And if you haven't watched ER, you should it was a great show (specifically the first few seasons)

ETA: if to add to what also wrote about. Doug and Carol had a slow build up. they weren't even together the first three seasons. it was heavily implied they still had strong feelings for each other (going as far as even sharing very heated kiss in season 1) but she was dating other guys, he was dating other women (plus he was still very much a player and a wounded individual then). their relationship really started to mature and change in season three when he sought out professional help and finally matured into as a man into the kind of man she deserved, so also very much matured as a woman during that season. their friendship strengthened because of that, their personal feelings became harder to conceal and avoid. which ended with them getting back together by the end of the season.

it was very much three years of slow burn romance; where we were shown the characters always gravitating towards each other, orbiting one another (like O&F they worked together) even when they were with someone else. you knew they loved each other, it was obvious!. it was also obvious through most of those three years that they weren't ready to be together again or they would repeat the mistakes of the past. they had major growing up to do as individuals. in the end they were everything Oliver and Felicity are to one another in terms of bringing the best of that person.

BTW, that is why, had Laurel been a better portrayed character, i would have been willing to maybe look past the sister swapping thing and buy her and Oliver as star-crossed lovers. because i've loved this type of ship before. but.. she isn't, and Felicity does to Oliver everything Laurel should have done.

Edited August 9, 2014 by foreverevolving

statsgirl · August 9, 2014

stats, define getting together (Mulder/Scully). ;-)

Being in a relationship, on screen, together, working through things. When one party is off screen, it feels like cheating.

I hate the standard TV relationship pathway, the one they used on ER for Abby and Luka, and on Castle for Castle and Beckett, among a zillion other shows, is that the first season sets up the OTP and usually puts them into a relationship so you know they're meant to be together. Then by the end of s1, something happens to break them up (Luka is unavailable and Abby is drinking) or at least to keep them from getting together (Castle does the one thing Beckett has asked him not to do). S2 is usually spent with one of the couple having another partner and by the time he/she figures it out at the end of s2 (Beckett dumping the cop, Abby not getting engaged to Carter), the other person is in a relationship with someone else (e.g. Hannah for Booth on Bones). That lasts two or three seasons and then they finally get together in s4 or 5. One season of happiness, then something happens to split them apart (e.g. Luka leaves).

I really, really don't want that for Arrow. @cadlymack indicated in the tweets with Julie Plec (I can't find them right now) that 3 seasons is long enough to keep the couple apart. Let Oliver grow up in s3, let Felicity realize that she's desirable but wants to pick Oliver, and then let them get on with the crime fighting for the rest of the show.

dtissagirl · August 9, 2014

I'm very interested in how they'll write Diggle/Lyla, because that's technically the one healthy relationship between 2 well-adjusted adults on the show. Even if they're at a different phase in their lives, the theme of choosing between duty and family is the same. Of course I might be totally off-base here and they might ruin Diggle/Lyla for all we know, but if they don't, I'm curious as to how [or if] they'll compare and contrast Dig/Lyla to Oliver/Felicity.

August 9, 2014

Agreed. I've found the way they're handling Olicity really refreshing because they managed to surprise me. I've been watching TV for so long now that the 'will-they-won't-they' has become pretty standard and dull to watch at times but the way Olicity has slowly developed has been a real treat. I was pretty shocked when I found out they were going *there* with them at the start of s3 because usually it's dragged out for much longer, so I was impressed that they've managed to subvert my expectations. I love that we're not taking four plus seasons to reach an 'I love you' or a date. It's gonna be interesting to see how their relationship goes from strength to strength while dealing with outside issues. I can't wait.

wingster55 · August 9, 2014

I don't know @wonderwall ..I'd say they were closer than the average man and wife.

Edited August 9, 2014 by wingster55

Nanrad · August 9, 2014

stats, I knew what you meant. lol. I was playing on a technicality of them sleeping together and creating William. ;-) Honestly, it's hard to determine what would've happened if DD had decided to stay, but I would like to believe that it would've been a mature relationship because of the nature of their friendship/partnership.

I always had an issue with Castle/Beckett due to the OTP in the first episode. It's harder for me to appreciate the journey when I know the ending. I wanted Abby to ended up with Carter--I originally rooted for Luka, but Carby stole my hurt and I'm still upset to this day that it fell apart. I hated Carter's wife for the longest because of it. lol

What's appealing to me about Olicity is that it isn't set in stone, but we get to watch the maturation of their relationship. We see Felicity's crush develop into something more where she sees Oliver for more than his past or even his present as Arrow. She appreciates him as a person. I don't know if Oliver ever consciously thought about his feelings for Felicity, but I think he struggles to define what he feels exactly. Oliver has grown out of the playboy, bad boy persona and is trying to become a responsible person. Most of the women he's slept with since the series started, he doesn't really have a long, well-established relationship (as far as getting to know one another/friendship) post island. You either have women from his past or women he immediately hooked up with. Then there is Felicity who he got to know and care for on a platonic level before his feelings evolved. Eventually, he does realize the extent of his feelings since he will ask her out on a date, but I find them more fascination because what don't know what could happen.

A recent trend in the last few years with shows is giving the fans the endgame right away. I enjoyed Chuck despite knowing that it would eventually happen, but I feel that it was executed better.

BkWurm1 · August 10, 2014

hate the standard TV relationship pathway, the one they used on ER for Abby and Luka, and on Castle for Castle and Beckett, among a zillion other shows, is that the first season sets up the OTP and usually puts them into a relationship so you know they're meant to be together. Then by the end of s1, something happens to break them up (Luka is unavailable and Abby is drinking) or at least to keep them from getting together (Castle does the one thing Beckett has asked him not to do). S2 is usually spent with one of the couple having another partner and by the time he/she figures it out at the end of s2 (Beckett dumping the cop, Abby not getting engaged to Carter), the other person is in a relationship with someone else (e.g. Hannah for Booth on Bones). That lasts two or three seasons and then they finally get together in s4 or 5. One season of happiness, then something happens to split them apart (e.g. Luka leaves).

I guess I don't hate the standard time it often takes characters to really, officially get together if we're given lots of close friendship/partners moments. Bones blew it by trying to bring on a legitimate love interest that Booth absolutely loved ad the only reason he wasn't married to her was because she refused him when he asked. That was utter crap writing and then they had to spend a season unbreaking his heart only to rush them together ambiguously cause the female lead got pregnant in real life. They were expecting a daughter before it was confirmed they'd even slept together. It wasn't that they'd kept them apart that I minded, it was why.

Castle IMO stretched to keep it's characters apart for maybe one season too long but I was willing to buy into the excuse (one character was shot and almost died and spent most of the next season going to therapy about that, the losses she'd experienced (mother murdered, mentor sacrificing his life for her), and how to react to the knowledge that the partner she needed in her life loved her. I was ok with what kept them apart because it seemed to me like valid mental hang ups and now since they've gotten together , they've only grown closer as their relationship has naturally progressed. It did a silly thing to interrupt them at the end of last season but it did nothing to the relationship, just the location of the people so hey, sure, throw your tricks, as long as no lasting harm is done to the love and trust between the couple. Olicity should be so lucky!

I have hope though. It does seem more of a trend these days to see a OTP finally get together and then stay together. Maybe a fight during an episode or a friendly kidnapping here and there or even a initial short break, but nothing lasting.

I mean like on Gilmore Girls where Luke and Lorelai first are apart for a handful of episodes due to her hiding spending some innocent time with her ex and her family treating him like dirt. If the show had left it at that, just a rough patch for a few episodes while they decide what's most important, I could have handled it but no, due to creative differences between the show creator and the network, the nuclear option come up and while the initial break up happens for really weak and contrived reasons, they then have her go sleep with her ex just to make sure they stay broken up for the entire next season but it's still obvious that the show intends them as the one true pair but by then they've ruined what was most special about the couple, the I've always got your back trust.

I have to hope that show runners have learned from their past cruelties enough never to go there again. If Oliver and Felicity were actually dating and either one of them cheated on the other or betrayed the other I'm not sure I as a viewer could ever come back mostly because the implicit trust is what defines them. It would be wildly out of character for a purposeful breach of trust to happen and wildly out of character for either of them to let a misunderstanding go unaddressed so cross my fingers, whatever obstacles TPTB might throw, let it never be a breach of trust since it would also break trust with the viewer, IMO.

That wasn't terribly concise but I haven't thought about Gilmore Girls and how that show broke my heart in a while. I thought I'd gotten over it, apparently I haven't.

statsgirl · August 10, 2014

Nanrad, Carby is an example of why I like knowing the endgame from the start because then I can enjoy the ride. (I think it was Aristotle who said you should read the story twice, once to find out what happens and then again to enjoy how it's told.) I understood the appeal of Carby because like Oliver, Luka was broody and PTSD'd and emotionally shut in and unavailable because of his own issues while Carter was fun and always there to talk to. But when he got back from rehab his first interaction with Abby was to manipulate her into being his sponsor because he didn't want a stranger and from there on, it was manipulation and lying and trying to push Luka out for the sake of winning. That's how you get shipping wars (and the ER one was pretty bad), that one pairing makes sense but another seems more attractive. It was even worse on House because of all the possible relationships for House (from Wilson to Stacy to Cameron to random strangers), the one with Cuddy was the one guaranteed to be the most dysfunctional.

There are already more shipping wars on Arrow than I want between Laurel/Oliver and Felicity/Oliver and even Sara/Oliver. One of the reasons I want the show to go Oliver/Felicity is because it would be the option for the least amount of soapy drama. Oliver isn't emotionally ready to be in a good relationship yet and Felicity doesn't think he thinks about her that way and maybe she thinks she's not that much of a prize ("finally a man is interested in me and then he ends up in a coma") but they know each other and as a couple they would fit each other well, and there wouldn't be any baggage of sister swapping or cheating. I could just sit back and watch the story unfold.

ETA

Bones blew it by trying to bring on a legitimate love interest that Booth absolutely loved and the only reason he wasn't married to her was because she refused him when he asked.

:Another reason Hannah was a huge mistake is that I thought she was a much better fit for him than Bones. When you bring on a love interest to stall the OTP, you have to be careful not to make it a better one. Felicity wasn't put on the show to stall Oliver/Laurel but she sure showed up how back Lauriver was.

ITA about the Gilmore Girls and how they blew it by keeping their OTP apart for too long and for the stupidest reasons.

If Oliver and Felicity were actually dating and either one of them cheated on the other or betrayed the other I'm not sure I as a viewer could ever come back mostly because the implicit trust is what defines them. I

Yes. And yes. The trust and acceptance is what makes them so good together.

Edited August 10, 2014 by statsgirl

foreverevolving · August 10, 2014

Nanrad, Carby is an example of why I like knowing the endgame from the start because then I can enjoy the ride. (I think it was Aristotle who said you should read the story twice, once to find out what happens and then again to enjoy how it's told.) I understood the appeal of Carby because like Oliver, Luka was broody and PTSD'd and emotionally shut in and unavailable because of his own issues while Carter was fun and always there to talk to. But when he got back from rehab his first interaction with Abby was to manipulate her into being his sponsor because he didn't want a stranger and from there on, it was manipulation and lying and trying to push Luka out for the sake of winning. That's how you get shipping wars (and the ER one was pretty bad), that one pairing makes sense but another seems more attractive. It was even worse on House because of all the possible relationships for House (from Wilson to Stacy to Cameron to random strangers), the one with Cuddy was the one guaranteed to be the most dysfunctional.

Man, you guys are bringing up the Abby Luka/Carter ships, while i'm talking Doug and Carol... and it's making me feel sooo old.

Ceylon5 · August 10, 2014

Man, you guys are bringing up the Abby Luka/Carter ships, while i'm talking Doug and Carol... and it's making me feel sooo old.

Well, I for one, consider Doug & Carol to be my favourite OTP of all time. Love them, love ER, love the fact that they pre-date the name-smooshing syndrome we have nowadays for couples' names, and especially love that they were allowed to live happily ever after with their twins in Seattle when they left the show. I watched and enjoyed ER all the way to the end, but never particularly shipped anyone other than those two.

I agree with @BkWurm1 that the show-runners wouldn't be able to break the trust between Oliver and Felicity and still retain what's most beautiful and compelling about their relationship. It would be incredibly short-sighted of them to ruin what makes the couple so appealing and watchable simply to produce some short-term drama, so let's hope they're not that dumb! I think the advantage of this show over, say, Gilmore Girls, is that it's not a show that's just about relationships, which would necessitate that any and all drama be drummed up via said relationships. Arrow has plenty of much more spectacular ways to produce drama (e.g. people trying to blow up the city on an annual basis), so telling the romance part of the story in a completely drama-free way would actually create a bit of much-needed balance in the story. So here's hoping they do that.

ETA: Interesting side note on how sensible show-runners change their plans in response to actor chemistry, in an interesting parallel to Arrow: Julianna Margulies' character Carol was meant to die at the end of the Pilot of ER, but because audiences of the test pilot viewings responded so strongly to her, and George Clooney (Doug) liked her so much that he asked if she could stay, they instead made her a regular. Smart move, show-runners (she was so popular that when her contract ran out at the end of S6 - long after George had left - they offered her $27million (!!) to stay another 2 years - sadly, she turned them down)! So the Arrow writers had a good precedent to look at when they saw how well Emily and Stephen worked together and ultimately changed their plans for their show based on both the positive response to Emily's Felicity and to the actor chemistry.

Edited August 10, 2014 by Ceylon5

tv echo · August 10, 2014

I agree with both wonderwall and dancingnancy. It would be nice to get Oliver settled in his romantic relationship and end all the shipping wars, which tend to overshadow fan discussions of the show. However, I don't think the EPs will stabilize his romantic life - if they ever do - unless and until they stabilize his mental and emotional state. If Oliver's 'hero' journey also means his character journey - from weak asshole to strong fighter to vigilante to Arrow to Green Arrow, then his inner turmoil also needs to go through that arc so that he can come to peace with himself and actually maintain a stable relationship. If the EPs planned for his hero journey to take 5 years, then they may also have him screwing up his relationships (while slowly improving) for at least 4 years. I don't know. I suppose they could have him settled enough to have a stable relationship after 3 years and still continue his hero journey for another 2 years.

Regarding the couples on the other shows mentioned above, I don't know if any of those characters had to go through as drastic a change (or as horrendous an experience) as Oliver has and will have to before all is said and done.

Edited August 10, 2014 by tv echo

foreverevolving · August 10, 2014

ETA: Interesting side note on how sensible show-runners change their plans in response to actor chemistry, in an interesting parallel to Arrow: Julianna Margulies' character Carol was meant to die at the end of the Pilot of ER, but because audiences of the test pilot viewings responded so strongly to her, and George Clooney (Doug) liked her so much that he asked if she could stay, they instead made her a regular. Smart move, show-runners (she was so popular that when her contract ran out at the end of S6 - long after George had left - they offered her $27million (!!) to stay another 2 years - sadly, she turned them down)! So the Arrow writers had a good precedent to look at when they saw how well Emily and Stephen worked together and ultimately changed their plans for their show based on both the positive response to Emily's Felicity and to the actor chemistry.

:-D glad to know i'm not the only Doug/Carol lover left in cyber space. they are forever my OTP too. they are the quintessential example of chemistry that is off the charts.

And Yes!! I always bring up this little tidbit too, if only to show how plans can change- for the better. impacting not only the show but the characters. they had a great "we challenge each other" sort of relationship.

@tv echo while they didn't get stranded on an island and turned into a mercenary, many of them either had harsh childhoods or very rough patches: Doug grew up in a very dysfunctional home were he (and supposedly his mom too) was physically abused by his drunk of a father who eventually abandoned him, in fact the first time we meet him on ER he is drunk singing some baseball song i think. Carter got stabbed and had a pain killer addiction. Abby was an alcoholic with a nasty piece of an ex husband. Luka may come close to having a similar problem with PTSD as he lost his wife and children in a bombing in Croatia during the 90's balkan war. Carol tried to kill herself in the pilot (which tells you right there she had issues).

My point is, that while in Arrow- Oliver terms they're lives may have been peachy, in ER terms it was anything but, until they wised up or something drastic happened and they sought out help.

About the side note: personally i didn't mind when Julianna left, yea i was sad but it was painfully obvious, in terms of strong independent female character, that the writers had zero idea what to do with the character without George around (which luckily won't happen on Arrow, but a fear i still harbor)- i mean the first thing they did in season 6 was push her to Luka (and god do i remember the backlash it caused- but cyber space wasn't what it is now so no one really paid attention to our cries). I think personally, as well and character wise, it was a very smart decision on Jules's part. She proved that for her it wasn't the money that was important but the character progression as a person. were she to stay we would have gotten exactly what is happening with Laurel now!. It is no secret that, in its middle seasons, ER had a tendency (probably due to the ever growing cast) to side bench main characters for lengthy periods of time- something which rarely happened in the early seasons.

I was happy to seem them receive the happy ending they deserved. the very surprising!! happy ending- if you guys don't know the story: In her last episode, Carol realized she was being an idiot, ditched Luka and hopped on a plane to Seattle where Doug now lived. her arc was supposed to end with her sitting in the plane. in a genius move- and one rarely seen these days, EP and writer John Wells wrote an extra scene where Carol surprises doug at his house in seattle - it was literally a surprise scene. They shot it, in seattle, with only a handful of people. Wells kept the film in his fridge until the episode was ready to be shipped and than added the scene. it ended up being a total surprise to the network executives too, who had no idea Clooney was gonna be making a guest appearance (wells and Clooney didn't want his appearance to take the spotlight away from Jules, as it was her last episode)- the exec's found out an hour before airing which left no time to promote it. everyone went crazy the next day! hack they even printed it in the newspaper in my home country, where the 6th season haven't even started airing yet.

So, why am i bringing this up? because in all honesty i kind of resent the EP's for revealing the coming of Ra's. it would have made it even more special if they would have kept that to themselves and surprised us (similar to how they did with Slade in present day). but i'll stop now, cause it has nothing to do with couples.

Edited August 10, 2014 by foreverevolving

poetgirl925 · August 10, 2014

I guess I don't hate the standard time it often takes characters to really, officially get together if we're given lots of close friendship/partners moments. Bones blew it by trying to bring on a legitimate love interest that Booth absolutely loved ad the only reason he wasn't married to her was because she refused him when he asked. That was utter crap writing and then they had to spend a season unbreaking his heart only to rush them together ambiguously cause the female lead got pregnant in real life. They were expecting a daughter before it was confirmed they'd even slept together. It wasn't that they'd kept them apart that I minded, it was why.

Bones really jumped the shark in S6, for me anyway. I started watching because I was a fan of the Kathy Reichs books and had even taken some forensics classes and visited the Body Farm in Knoxville, where I met Dr. Bass. My excitement over the Booth/Brennan relationship really took me by surprise and it's what ended up making the show Must See TV for me. S6 all but ruined that and I quit watching for about a year. I got caught up in S8 but now I watch for the reasons I originally watched, and I frequently let 3-4 episodes go before catching up. I also don't buy the DVDs or iTunes passes anymore. I agree Castle handled it better, but it wasn't really an OTP that kept me watching. It's mostly that I like Nathan Fillion and the ensemble cast is great, and it's just overall entertaining. (I should mention I haven't seen the last two episodes of the season yet. I caught some major griping on Twitter and it made me fearful lol. I'll probably watch them just before the new season airs.)

I started watching Arrow because I like comics. I was also interested in an Arrow and Canary story that might be better than the comics. It's hard to believe now, but I was actually excited they were including Dinah Laurel Lance. She was never my favorite from GA books, but I really liked her in BoP. Then the pilot happened lol - seriously, just from comics alone I should have known there was going to be a crap story attached to them. I think that might be the first time I ever thought a show jumped the shark on an OTP straight out of the gate. I was utterly repelled by everything in their scenes together, but I still had hope Laurel would be a good character and I was still interested in Oliver's story, so I kept watching. I think it was around the middle or towards the back half of the season that I started considering Olicity as a potential OTP. I read episode reviews and commented at that time, but I didn't follow fandom or spoilers. I had no idea how much attention Olicity was getting at the time.

I'm okay with Felicity and Oliver not being together in S3, mainly because the 'I love you' followed so closely on the heels of Oliver/Sara. I still kind of don't like that to be honest. I don't think Oliver was in love with Sara, but he seemed connected on an emotional level and wanted to move in together, so now it's difficult for me to wrap my head around him being in love with Felicity at the time. I'm waiting for S3 to explain this - exactly how early did he know? And if he knew early but was able to compartmentalize, which is what I'm assuming, then he needs time to get his head and his heart together. Felicity needs time to be her own character outside the Arrowcave and her role on the team before she's Oliver's girlfriend. Plus, while I can see how Felicity has a positive effect on Oliver, it's felt a bit onesided. If Felicity struggles with her past or her identity in S3, I'd like to see Oliver being a support system for her for a change. We've seen a little of this - I find it encouraging that she's one of the few people he's willing to apologize to, but he's pretty selfcentered. If they can use S3 to work on these things, S4 would be plenty early for a committed relationship. And then I agree that once they're together, the writers shouldn't mess with their trust and partnership bond. There's no reason that every relationship has to be in turmoil on this show when a lot of people aren't watching for that reason anyway. If they break the trust, I'm not sure I'd keep watching because with them it's about more than romance anyway.

I honestly hope they're done with Laurel/Oliver. I'm prepared to grit my teeth through Laurel being Black Canary, even if (as will likely be the case) her path to that identity makes absolutely no sense. I don't hate Laurel, but we're pretty far past the possibility of her ever being a favorite for me or a reason to tune in. More often she's a reason to put off watching a particular episode - if promo pics and trailers are focused on her, there are usually at least 2 or 3 other shows I'll catch up on first. If the show put Laurel in the lead for everything as originally intended, that might cause me to stop watching altogether because I don't think I could handle that much of her on my screen. At that point it would come down to how compelling the other characters' stories are, I guess.

Edited August 10, 2014 by poetgirl925

catrox14 · August 10, 2014

I don't know the ultimate outcome of Crichton/Aeryn yet as I just finished s1 of Farscape but I can see that kind of organic relationship building with Oliver/Felicity if they handle it right. And for my money, to this point they have.

Edited August 10, 2014 by catrox14

statsgirl · August 10, 2014

I thought about including John/Aeryn in my list of OTPs who were done right but even though they absolutely were and it was evident from the pilot episode, the EP did a trick with them that was very clever but couldn't be done on Arrow so it's in a category of its own.

I agree that Carol/Doug were an iconic couple, who had to wait until they both matured enough to be together, although it was mostly Doug who needed to. (I didn't much like Carol, sorry. Wing Chun's reviews of ER at MBTV and later TWoP were what hooked me on the board.)

Abby was an alcoholic with a nasty piece of an ex husband.

More than that, her father ditched the family because of her mother's illness and she grew up having to take care of herself and her younger brother from an early age because her mother had an unstable bipolar affective disorder. There was mention of ketchup soup from restaurant packets and sneaking out at night to duck out on the apartment rent. While what Abby experienced wasn't the physical torture that Oliver did, it happened from a much earlier age to a vulnerable child. A scene between Abby and her mother in the rain (for which Sally Fields won an Emmy) sticks in my mind, Abby's mother telling her that she couldn't help having her illness and Abby crying out "But you didn't even try to get better". That's a talisman for me.

If they can use S3 to work on these things, S4 would be plenty early for a committed relationship. And then I agree that once they're together, the writers shouldn't mess with their trust and partnership bond. There's no reason that every relationship has to be in turmoil on this show when a lot of people aren't watching for that reason anyway. If they break the trust, I'm not sure I'd keep watching because with them it's about more than romance anyway.

I agree, I hope that the relationship stuff for Oliver and Felcity in s3 is working this stuff out. But that's long enough. I want the show to keep from going the Andrew Marlowe route who is still keeping Castle and Beckett apart just because he's still got some more ideas in his bag and can, rather than because that's what the show needs (it doesn't, IMO).

I don't know about other people but I'd like to see Oliver fighting crime with his team, including his SO, rather than the mess that was his relationship with Laurel.

BkWurm1 · August 11, 2014

if you guys don't know the story: In her last episode, Carol realized she was being an idiot, ditched Luka and hopped on a plane to Seattle where Doug now lived. her arc was supposed to end with her sitting in the plane. in a genius move- and one rarely seen these days, EP and writer John Wells wrote an extra scene where Carol surprises doug at his house in seattle - it was literally a surprise scene. They shot it, in seattle, with only a handful of people. Wells kept the film in his fridge until the episode was ready to be shipped and than added the scene. it ended up being a total surprise to the network executives too, who had no idea Clooney was gonna be making a guest appearance (wells and Clooney didn't want his appearance to take the spotlight away from Jules, as it was her last episode)- the exec's found out an hour before airing which left no time to promote it. everyone went crazy the next day! hack they even printed it in the newspaper in my home country, where the 6th season haven't even started airing yet.

I didn't even watch ER during the Doug years and I tuned in for George Clooney's rumored appearance at the end. I actually only watched for the relationship between Anthony Edwards and the lovely Alex Kingston's characters - broke my heart when he died so I stopped watching shortly after.

I feel real safe in saying nobody on Arrow is going to get cancer, thank goodness. Don't need that kind of realism on a comic book inspired show. Well, I suppose if they bring on Captain Atom they might go there but I'm sure Oliver's magic herbs will take care of it. ;)

I want the show to keep from going the Andrew Marlowe route who is still keeping Castle and Beckett apart just because he's still got some more ideas in his bag and can, rather than because that's what the show needs (it doesn't, IMO).

See this is probably where opinions differ, since I don't see that they are being kept apart at all. They basically live together and work together on top of that so the only thing that Marlowe is keeping them from doing is that final legal piece of paper and yes, that would be nice but I don't think it's going to change the dynamic between them one way or another. If something comes from the season final that might stop them from being together, then I'll complain (if it last longer than a episode)

It's when the couple is no longer interacting with each other, that's when I start getting upset. I'm ok if there is conflict, but they need to still be in each other's close orbit.

I confess some concern about that for Oliver and Felicity in the coming season.

KirkB · August 11, 2014

Doug and Carol and Castle and Beckett all had the benefit of chemistry from the start. The actors got along well and you could see the sparks every time they were on screen together. Nothing could be further from the truth with Oliver and Laurel. I don't know if Stephen and Katie have some personal or professional issues we're not privy to (besides him being married for her apparently) but in all my years of TV watching I can't recall another main romantic pairing who ever had less chemistry or business being together within the plot itself than Oliver and Laurel. Can any of you?

Sakura12 · August 11, 2014

but in all my years of TV watching I can't recall another main romantic pairing who ever had less chemistry or business being together within the plot itself than Oliver and Laurel. Can any of you?

I can't. I'll admit the pairings I didn't ship had chemistry I just liked the chemistry of the other pairings more, but I've never seen a pairing have no chemistry at all until this show with Oliver and Laurel.

Edited August 11, 2014 by Sakura12

foreverevolving · August 11, 2014

Doug and Carol and Castle and Beckett all had the benefit of chemistry from the start. The actors got along well and you could see the sparks every time they were on screen together. Nothing could be further from the truth with Oliver and Laurel. I don't know if Stephen and Katie have some personal or professional issues we're not privy to (besides him being married for her apparently) but in all my years of TV watching I can't recall another main romantic pairing who ever had less chemistry or business being together within the plot itself than Oliver and Laurel. Can any of you?

The Doug and Carol comparison was to Oliver and Felicity, as both female characters were supposed to be a one off character.

but anyway, regarding your question.. umm, Lana and Clark on Smallville? i know there was a large ChloexClark following. personally i was never able to buy into either ship, because well.. Clark and Lois, that's the superman pairing. and really once they brought in Erica and she played opposite Tom it was easy to see that Tom and what's her name (the girl who plays lana) were lacking that chemistry.

I can't think of any other couple right now. I think that there was a similar situation on Veronica Mars? maybe fans of the show will be able to give a specific answer.

BkWurm1 · August 11, 2014

know there was a large ChloexClark following. personally i was never able to buy into either ship, because well.. Clark and Lois, that's the superman pairing. and really once they brought in Erica and she played opposite Tom it was easy to see that Tom and what's her name (the girl who plays lana) were lacking that chemistry.

The Clark/Lois ultimate ship problem was solved for me cause the show convinced me Chloe WAS going to turn out to be Lois. I won't get into that.

Kristin Kruek currently of the CW's Beauty and Beast show played Lana. I hated Clana but I actually bought them more a s a couple than the Lois and Clark pairing (since after they made Lois a regular, they played her and Clark as brother and sister for 4 seasons. Not sexual tension bickering, but ha, ha you stepped in poop and I love that my dog makes you sneeze tension. Clana was dysfunctional but I believed they cared romantically at least even if they had only been in love with their individual fantasy people rather than the real person.

I can't think of any other couple right now. I think that there was a similar situation on Veronica Mars? maybe fans of the show will be able to give a specific answer.

She was supposed to have had this perfect boyfriend, (Duncan, known as the doughnut by viewers ) her best friend's brother who had broke up with her just before her best friend was murdered. Part of the failure probably existed first since he hardly had any lines (he was supposed to be in a fog from anti-depressants) and then there was a question of if he was really

her half brother

That had no shot against the still very broken, grief and rage filled smart ass Logan going nose to nose with the now super cynical Veronica. Did a rewatch before the movie. Such a great show. Such a pity it was meddled with so much. Still, I shouldn't complain. So few ended before their time shows get such sweet closure.

It's funny, I became far more fond of Duncan once he was written off the show. Still an absolute misfit as romantic partner but hindsight shows he made a nice foil showing Veronica trying to decide if she could ever go back to being that innocent, naïve and uninvolved person she been before the horrors hit. In Veronica Mars, Veronica is Oliver...but a lot cooler and smarter. She even gets her own IT girl. ;D



Edited August 11, 2014 by BkWurm1

poetgirl925 · August 11, 2014

I know chemistry is debatable. However, as someone who doesn't usually ship couples (hardcore anyway) on shows I watch and who is normally happy to go along with the planned OTP as long I'm enjoying the characters and story, I think lack of chemistry was a big part of why I had an extremely negative reaction to Oliver and Laurel. The backstory played a part because it was so cringeworthy, but still - it was far more negative than reactions I've had to other couples I didn't like. I did not care for Clark and Lana at all, but that was mostly because Lana was not a well written character and their 'love story' was boring IMO. That being said, Kreuk and Welling played off one another better than Amell and Cassidy IMHO. I never thought Welling had much romantic chemistry with anyone really, and Clark's relationship with Lois didn't excite me, but it didn't make me want to change the channel. There was a distinct lack of chemistry between Veronica and Duncan on VM. Seriously, that guy just faded into the scenery when he was onscreen with anyone. I'll never understand how he was cast to be the male lead. (I never saw him in anything else so I assume that role killed his career.) I'm trying to think of other examples, but I'm drawing a blank. I guess if there was another show where I had a similar problem in the pilot, I just stopped watching. Arrow held my attention for reasons having nothing to do with Laurel and Oliver's relationship. I was way more interested in Diggle and Moira in early S1 and Team Arrow and Moira in late S1. It's possible I'd have kept watching for those characters even if Oliver failed to appear in an episode.

ETA - The main couple on Grimm. I can't remember his name (Nick?) but hers is Juliette. I was bored with them straight from the pilot, but I continued watching for other reasons. I've only made it through about 3-4 episodes of the last season though. She's been playing a bigger and bigger role in the action and it's sucking my enjoyment of the overall story. I may not bother with it anymore.

Edited August 11, 2014 by poetgirl925

Ceylon5 · August 11, 2014

Doug and Carol and Castle and Beckett all had the benefit of chemistry from the start. The actors got along well and you could see the sparks every time they were on screen together. Nothing could be further from the truth with Oliver and Laurel. I don't know if Stephen and Katie have some personal or professional issues we're not privy to (besides him being married for her apparently) but in all my years of TV watching I can't recall another main romantic pairing who ever had less chemistry or business being together within the plot itself than Oliver and Laurel. Can any of you?

Interestingly, actors getting along isn't actually a prerequisite for on-screen chemistry. The leads on both Remington Steele and Moonlighting reportedly didn't get along AT ALL, but on-screen they had tons of chemistry (well, I've never seen Moonlighting, but that's what I'm told). Perhaps intense dislike is just as effective for creating on-screen chemistry as the actors getting on well - so long as the actors are sparking off each other, positively or negatively, chemistry happens. I think apathy would be more of a chemistry-killer, so perhaps that's more the problem with the Laurel/Oliver anti-chemistry - maybe the actors just haven't really connected on any level, good or bad, and that comes across on-screen. [blandness also seems to be a chemistry-killer for a romantic lead, which is what I think the problem is with both Duncan on Veronica Mars and Juliette on Grimm - they're just so very dull that you don't want to watch them in any capacity.] Emily got Stephen to react from the first moment they met, so that first Felicity/Oliver scene was us watching her connect with the leading man in a jump-off-the-screen kind of way. And watching two people connect is, I think, basically what we're meaning when we talk about chemistry (or it's what I mean, anyway). When they're clearly not connecting, but you know they're supposed to be (i.e. Laurel & Oliver), it takes you right out of the story. Which is annoying.

Edited August 11, 2014 by Ceylon5

KirkB · August 11, 2014

But even with all that, with the fact that IMO Oliver and Laurel have no business being together and should even be in as few scenes together as possible, it's not enough to make me stop watching the show. Part of that is I don't care about Laurel one way or the other, but it's also because the show isn't about shipping or any particular romantic pairing. If this were a romantic comedy or drama and the main characters had negative chemistry like Oliver and Laurel THAT would probably be enough to make me stop watching because it would be the point of the show. So long as Oliver doesn't stop running around the city shooting people with arrows I'll probably be in, and he can romance whoever he likes, or be completely celibate.

Lisin · August 11, 2014

Hey everyone, while comparing a relationship on this show to another show is totally fine please make at least most of your post about Arrow. All those other shows have forums here if you want to talk about them. Thanks.

wingster55 · August 11, 2014

I think with so-called bland characters is that they're more subtle as opposed to the more..louder characters for lack of a better word.

Oliver falls in the former as does Duncan Kane. They react in smaller ways as opposed to a Logan.

statsgirl · August 11, 2014

The reason you need good chemistry between the romantic leads, especially in a star-crossed lover situation, is that you want the audience to root for them getting together. That's a big reason why Oliver/Laurel fell flat for me, and still do, because every time something happens to keep them apart, I think "thank goodness that's over". And then the show would bring them together again, or tease them together, like AK saying that Laurel is the one to reach Oliver at his lowest point and bring him back up, and I'd start dreading it again.

There is nothing in the scenes with Oliver and Laurel that made we want to keep seeing them in scenes together much less be together as a couple, and that's totally independent of how they behaved in the storyline (i.e. the writing).

Interestingly, actors getting along isn't actually a prerequisite for on-screen chemistry. The leads on both Remington Steele and Moonlighting reportedly didn't get along AT ALL, but on-screen they had tons of chemistry (well, I've never seen Moonlighting, but that's what I'm told).

My favourite example is Nancy Lee Grahn and Lane Davies on Santa Barbara, who had terrific on-screen chemistry and then got into a fight and wouldn't even speak to each other except on set. And still the chemistry continued.

So there's a thought I had that I wanted to ask other people what they thought..... I was reading Lights Will Guide You Home by ferggirl. It's AU with Tommy surviving the CNRI crash and in it he's still in love with Laurel, still wanting to be with her but giving her the time she's asked for. (I read it for the Tommy/Felicity friendship because it would have been so good.) So that got me thinking that if Tommy had survived, now that Laurel says she's in love with him, could they have made a go of it?

I'm thinking not, and it's because as soon as Tommy left her, Laurel went to Oliver and they had sex. That killed it, if not right away, then later. If I were Tommy and any time I had a fight with Laurel, as couples do, I would always be wondering if when she left me, she went to Oliver's bed. Especially I'd be wondering it 7 or 17 or even 27 years into the relationship, if Laurel isn't regretting picking me and not Oliver.

Edited August 11, 2014 by statsgirl

TanyaKay · August 11, 2014

Chemistry is very important and not just between romantic leads but between other characters.

Case in point is episode 14 of first season of Arrow, half the episode was a bonding session between Felicity and Diggle, from her bringing Oliver to lair and saving his life a couple of times to them bonding over his terrible lies and how she was onto them (I may be blonde but I am not that blonde). By the end of the episode, Diggle was concerned that bringing in Felicity could be dangerous for her and we as audience bought Diggle's concern for this new girl because of the terrific chemistry between these two actors.

Moira and Oliver scenes also carry an emotional punch - from the first scenes where Oliver's first word on the show was mom to Moira's last scene where she called him her beautiful boy - the audience bought their bond. No matter how dysfunctional their relationship was with all the lying and vigilante business, it was still emotionally strong enough to keep the audience hooked.

I think Chemistry is very important, otherwise it is just a bunch of actors saying their lines and getting paid an awful lot of money for that.

Edited August 11, 2014 by TanyaKay

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