Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[Sakura12]

There was also Sara asking Felicity and Diggle about the Huntress and Felicity said "if the Huntress shows up you should totally kick her ass"

[Primal Slayer]

You know what I loved about FS bringing up dating the Huntress as a bad idea, for me it showed how frequently and how long FS & Dig have been having conversations about OQ. I took it as the show giving me another indirect morsel of Dig & FS are friends and have secret convos off camera. Huntress was pre-FS foundry days. So a lot of what she knows about why H/OQ was a bad choice in terms of the mission & OQ has to come from Dig. Unless, they had some conversation about it over the 5mo sexcapade, which I don’t think they did. And even if they did, I doubt they would talk about what FS is referencing in this conversation.

 

 

Felicity probably found out during the 2.5 comics when the Huntress came back and saved Felicity.

[statsgirl]

From the Mind Your Surroundings thread:

If we look at this all from Laurel's perspective, her sister (who she might not have been close to, but that really could have been a teenage thing) AND the man she loved betrayed her.  It's one thing for her to let go of what Oliver did to her - the fact that he did it with her sister must have been all the more painful.  I mean, pre-island Oliver was a scum bucket.  Surely, Laurel had a friend he could have hit on instead of messing with sisters!  And let's not forget why poor Sara went - she was convinced she was in love with the guy!  So being the biggest douchbag to ever douch, rather than just breaking up with Laurel, he cheats on her with her sister who he knows has a huge crush on her.  I mean, it what world does this end well for either sister if the Gambit doesn't blow up?  He didn't give two fucks about either woman.

 

So, Laurel learns that the man she loved (or at least thought she did) is dead and her sister is dead and what choice does she have but to bury those feelings of betrayal and anger and just deal with the grief - her grief, her mother's grief, and her father's.  So while Laurel is not dealing with her resentment, anger, etc.... her mother is carrying her own guilt (because worse mom ever encouraged one daughter to go sleep with the other daughter's boyfriend - who the hell does that?) and her father is drinking away his pain.  Then Laurel's mom leaves and her dad falls completely in the bottle.  Why?  Because Sara died.

 

So of course when Sara shows up alive, Laurel now has to deal with a) the betrayal she buried because of the grief, b) the fact that Sara's death broke up her parent's marriage and drove her mom away, and c) the fact that Sara's death drove her dad to drink and Laurel was the one who had to pick him out of the bars and get him home safe.

 

Ok so yes, if Oliver and Sara come back alive - what they did had some impact on Laurel but her parent's marriage may or may not have broken up, she and Sara might have eventually made amends (especially once Oliver broke her heart too), and most importantly - daddy Lance might not have turned into a drunk.  Ergo, while Laurel didn't go through the hell that Oliver and Sara did - her life was also permanently altered by their choices.

 

So given how much damage that little boat trip did to the Lance family - perhaps Oliver's presence at said family dinner in season two was a VERY bad idea and no matter how nervous Sara was, Oliver should have KNOWN it was a bad idea and told her so.  And at the very least - the man who kept so many secrets might have told Sara, I'll go with you, but we can't let your sister know about us - she's going through a rough time and she might not take this well right now. 

 

To me, all of Laurel's reactions to Oliver and Sara make perfect sense.  I forgive Sara for her part in Laurel's pain because she didn't know the things Oliver did and he should have handled the situation better.  I think the problem with Laurel in all of this isn't that her reactions don't make sense - its there after the writers took them there - it now makes NO damn sense for Laurel to want to have anything to do with Oliver.  Even if she wanted to be Black Canary to honor her sister, her story really should be separate from Oliver like 90% of the time and she should want as little to do with him as possible.  I know the problem is - how do you work her into the story if that's the case, but all the more reason why the writers just screwed her character up so damn bad its not funny. 

 

And come to think of it - the way the wrote the story - Laurel's journey to BC would have made better sense IF she was headed to LoT.  Because I can see her becoming BC and then leaving town.  What I still can't understand is why she's part of Oliver's team.

I agree, the dinner was a terrible idea.  It also seemed out of character for Sara, who up to then had been very strong, strong enough to be willing to commit suicide to get out of the LoA. Suddenly she's scared to have dinner with her family?

 

It seemed to me that Laurel didn't bury any betrayal, it was right out there as soon as Oliver came back and even in the flashback visit in s3.  She was sad that Sara was dead until Sara came back and was actually there. Then Laurel started competing again.

 

I think the blame can be spread out over all the players -- Oliver, Sara, Laurel, Quentin, even Robert and Moira although the greatest blame should go on MM who caused the boat to go down.  Sara, impulsive and immature, had a crush on her sister's boyfriend and a ton of resentment towards her sister and even though she said no at first, agreed when Laurel put her down again.  Laurel knew that her boyfriend was a serial cheater but she not only kept taking him back, she kept pushing him toward a greater and greater commitment.  Oliver was thoughtless and immature but he'd gotten away with everything up to now -- dropping out of schools, getting bailed out for his offenses, cheating on his girlfriend who was always willing to take him back. Why would he change, the world was his oyster. Robert and Moira really should have stepped in much sooner but Moira had terrible parenting skills and Robert seemed like he was proud of Oliver's ways in spite of telling him to do better.

 

Quentin hitting the bottle and abandoning both his daughter and his wife while she was grieving was on him, not Oliver.  It must have hurt Laurel when her parents broke up but she had already left home, abandoning her mother herself.

[Sakura12]

I agree, the dinner was a terrible idea.  It also seemed out of character for Sara, who up to then had been very strong, strong enough to be willing to commit suicide to get out of the LoA. Suddenly she's scared to have dinner with her family?

 

I think facing her family after everything she's done scared Sara more than facing any number of assassins. Sara could beat up bad guys with ease but being around people she cared about is what made her cower. The way Caity played it every time she was with her family Sara's shoulders were hunched, her arms were held tight to her sides, she held her head down until spoken too, she was  trying to make herself smaller. She had no confidence around her family. She was afraid of them seeing the killer she became. She didn't want them to look into her eyes and see a murderer.

 

I completely bought her being afraid to face all of them alone. She needed a buffer and at that time only Oliver fit that role. He was her comfort zone. Oliver understood her the way no one else could. That's why she mostly looked at him when she talked instead of at the faces of her family. It was stupid but I understood why she did it. 

[wonderwall]

I'm glad Sara was scared of having dinner with her family... I think that goes well with my head canon of her. Sara is so strong in every sense of the word, it makes sense that her only weakness is her family. They're the ones who can really cut deep and hurt Sara because they're the ones Sara loves the most, the ones she is most vulnerable to. But I also think that Sara wanting Oliver out of all the people there, that was stupid. Yeah, the family dinner scared Sara, but it didn't make her stupid. It was just a dumb thing to ask of Oliver tbh. 

[Chaser]

I think facing her family after everything she's done scared Sara more than facing any number of assassins. Sara could beat up bad guys with ease but being around people she cared about is what made her cower. The way Caity played it every time she was with her family Sara's shoulders were hunched, her arms were held tight to her sides, she held her head down until spoken too, she was trying to make herself smaller. She had no confidence around her family. She was afraid of them seeing the killer she became. She didn't want them to look into her eyes and see a murderer.

I completely bought her being afraid to face all of them alone. She needed a buffer and at that time only Oliver fit that role. He was her comfort zone. Oliver understood her the way no one else could. That's why she mostly looked at him when she talked instead of at the faces of her family. It was stupid but I understood why she did it.

This is the one thing that stops me from truly sympathizing with Laurel. I feel like her family should have some understanding of why Sara wanted Oliver there.

[apinknightmare]

I understand why Sara would want some moral support, but it was legit a terrible idea for her to ask Oliver of all people to go with her. If you want to give her a pass for emotional reasons, then it's on Oliver for being stupid enough to go. Everyone in that family is responsible for the choices they made post the sinking of The Gambit, but there's no denying that Oliver being the kind of dirtbag who would invite his girlfriend's sister on a boat, and Sara being naive/stupid enough to accept the invitation set into motion a whole lot of bad things that still needed to be dealt with by all of the Lances. Oliver being invited to their first dinner together and actually going? Absolutely stupid. 

[AyChihuahua]

Anyone, pretty much, would have been a better invite than Oliver.  Felicity, Diggle, Roy, Thea, the guy down the street who makes a great falafel.  ANYONE.

 

So yeah, not a great moment for Sara or Oliver, but whatevs.  Laurel lost the high ground when she threw a glass at Sara within a couple hours of finding out, after six years, that she was alive.  

[Sakura12]

Who else could she bring though? There was no one else that she thought of as a comfort zone. It was stupid and she was selfishly thinking of herself at that moment but it's understandable. I go with because of what happened to them Oliver and Sara's emotional responses stopped at ages of 22 and 20. They had to grow up fast in their new situations but those situations called for no emotions getting in the way. Their first thought is to go with whatever with help them survive, nothing else matters.

 

And yes this was just a dinner, but I don't think Sara thought of it like that.  She should've told them she didn't want a dinner or that she would feel more comfortable if she met the one on one for now. Quentin witnessed her PTSD first hand when she jumped at the slightest sound ready to attack. He had to have known that Sara has a lot of issues and making a big deal out of the family dinner would terrify her. On top of that Quentin was acting like the family dinner meant they were all a family again and what happened, never happened. That's a lot of pressure to put on someone that just tried to kill herself to escape from the life she lead. She wasn't ready for that kind of interaction yet. 

Edited November 28, 2015 by Sakura12

[Genki]

When I first binge watched, I had sympathy for Laurel during the Blood setting her up arc. KC had some nice moments with her perking up over QL wanting to get DL back and when she was "drunk" in Verdant and Thea called Oliver to get her. But turning her sister's return from the dead into being All About Laurel is where she lost any  sympathy for me.

 

Sure they hurt her 5 years ago and her life was tough form the fall-out of their dumb & immature mistake, but "back form the dead" trumps in my opinion. 

 

Like @Sakura12 said, Sara needed the emotional support and IMO Oliver, even though he sympathised with what she was going through didn't really want to be there, but they were dating, and Felicity was mad, they needed a big L/O scene so he went. 

 

I agree it was a bit insensitive to Laurel, but Sara went to the Foundry alone on the night of almost dying to protect her Mum, the same night both her Mum and sister realise she is alive, because Laurel had and hissy fit. Laurel needs to learn how to deal with things and not make it all about herself....cue S4 episode 4.

[apinknightmare]

I mean...Laurel reacted to Sara being alive in a shitty way. And Sara, in turn, did a shitty thing by inviting Oliver of all people to their family dinner. It wasn't just shitty to Laurel - it was shitty to her terrible mother and her father, too, since a decision that Sara made with Oliver was the first in a series of awful things that led to the disintegration of their family. Laurel being shitty doesn't excuse Sara for being shitty, IMO. 

Edited November 28, 2015 by apinknightmare

[hogwash]

First she brings Oliver to the dinner. Then she makes freaking googly eyes at Oliver in full view of the entire Lance family. As if she just happened to forget that boning Oliver is a sore point in her relationship with Laurel. This is literally the second time Laurel seen her since she came back to life and this is what Sara does. Laurel may have been a dick the last time Sara saw her but that dinner made it very clear where Sara stood. From Laurel's perspective, anyway. 

 

I'll never buy that that Laurel deserves any of the blame for Sara and Oliver's BS. Sara and Oliver paid excessively for the cheating but that doesn't absolve them of screwing over Laurel. I don't care how many flashbacks they throw at the situation. Those "Laurel shares some blame" flashbacks just make Sara/Oliver look worse. Oliver, especially. Sara wasn't the only woman in his rotation (bleh!), his father was a known philanderer who condone his BS with Sara, and they showed his practiced/smooth cheating ways firsthand. Whatever nefarious things 22-year-old Laurel did to keep these star-crossed cheaters apart doesn't compare to screwing your sister's boyfriend/girlfriend's sister. They can try to make Sara/Oliver less horrible but they'll never convince me that Laurel (in this context) is just as bad.

Edited November 28, 2015 by hogwash

[nksarmi]

I mean...Laurel reacted to Sara being alive in a shitty way. And Sara, in turn, did a shitty thing by inviting Oliver of all people to their family dinner. It wasn't just shitty to Laurel - it was shitty to her terrible mother and her father, too, since a decision that Sara made with Oliver was the first in a series of awful things that led to the disintegration of their family. Laurel being shitty doesn't excuse Sara for being shitty, IMO. 

 

See my feeling was that Sara wasn't really being shitty - Oliver was.  And I know it's so awful to blame him because he was just trying to "help" but the thing is - he has so much information that Sara doesn't have.  He KNEW it was a bad idea and did it anyway without explaining to her why it was a bad idea.  Oliver fails in communications and human decency yet again lol.

 

I mean someone correct me if I'm wrong here - but as far as I can remember, the list of things that Oliver knew and Sara didn't include....

 

A) Oliver told Laurel he loved her, always did, and she was his reason for living during those 5 years when he was on the island and then made love to her.

B) Laurel was feeling guilty as hell over Tommy's death and was very shook up over it (if he didn't know she was dipping into addictville, he had to at least suspect it).

C) Quentin blamed Oliver for everything and hated his guts for all of season one and there is no way he wanted Oliver anywhere near either of his daughters.

D) Quentin became an alcoholic because of Sara's death (I don't think Sara knew that as of yet).

E) Sara's mom left Laurel and Quentin because she couldn't deal with her guilt over telling Sara to go on the boat (pretty sure Sara didn't know that either).

 

So yea, Sara just couldn't possibly know how bad an idea it was for Oliver to go to that dinner - but Oliver sure as HELL knew.  And the very least he could have done was make it clear that they had to pretend to be JUST friends and maybe even sit on the other side of the table or something.

 

And shit, maybe if Oliver had filled Sara in a little she would have said, nevermind, I'll take Sin.

[Sakura12]

The dinner was their attempt to gain sympathy for Laurel by making everyone else act like assholes to make her look better. It didn't work for me because I knew what they were doing. Laurel is a horribly written character making other characters act dumb to prop her up doesn't make her a better written character. 

 

I sided with Oliver and Sara because I don't care about Laurel. Everything would've been better if she didn't exist. 

Edited November 28, 2015 by Sakura12

[nksarmi]

The dinner was their attempt to gain sympathy for Laurel by making everyone else act like assholes to make her look better. It didn't work for me because I knew what they were doing. Laurel is a horribly written character making other characters act dumb to prop her up doesn't make her a better written character. 

 

I sided with Oliver and Sara because I don't care about Laurel. Everything would've been better if she didn't exist. 

Well everything would have been better if she was written better. I had no problem with Laurel in season one until she and Oliver slept together.  She lost me a bit in season two (even though I sided with her over Oliver - I still contend that it was more his fault than Sara's) and I really wish they would have let her be smart enough to figure out that Oliver was Arrow on her own, but I didn't hate her.

 

But at every. single. moment when they could have set Laurel up to become BC and show her on a hero's journey, I feel like they made the wrong decision with her.  It's sad really because she could have been great - now our best hope is that she isn't awful or is on screen as little as possible.

[hogwash]

I side with Laurel because of Sara and Oliver's actions. They were garbage people in 214. Inviting Oliver to the dinner can be rationalized. But the googly eyes and that freaking hallway scene... It has nothing to do with Laurel.

 

It must have been really weird for her. Like your sister comes back to life. You make it violently clear that you're still pissed at her. Then the next time you see her she makes it very clear to you and your parents now that she's currently boning your ex-boyfriend. The same ex-boyfriend she boned while you were dating him. Wtf Sara?? They're such horrible sisters.

Edited November 28, 2015 by hogwash

[apinknightmare]

See my feeling was that Sara wasn't really being shitty - Oliver was.  And I know it's so awful to blame him because he was just trying to "help" but the thing is - he has so much information that Sara doesn't have.  He KNEW it was a bad idea and did it anyway without explaining to her why it was a bad idea.  Oliver fails in communications and human decency yet again lol.

 

I mean someone correct me if I'm wrong here - but as far as I can remember, the list of things that Oliver knew and Sara didn't include....

 

A) Oliver told Laurel he loved her, always did, and she was his reason for living during those 5 years when he was on the island and then made love to her.

B) Laurel was feeling guilty as hell over Tommy's death and was very shook up over it (if he didn't know she was dipping into addictville, he had to at least suspect it).

C) Quentin blamed Oliver for everything and hated his guts for all of season one and there is no way he wanted Oliver anywhere near either of his daughters.

D) Quentin became an alcoholic because of Sara's death (I don't think Sara knew that as of yet).

E) Sara's mom left Laurel and Quentin because she couldn't deal with her guilt over telling Sara to go on the boat (pretty sure Sara didn't know that either).

 

So yea, Sara just couldn't possibly know how bad an idea it was for Oliver to go to that dinner - but Oliver sure as HELL knew.  And the very least he could have done was make it clear that they had to pretend to be JUST friends and maybe even sit on the other side of the table or something.

 

And shit, maybe if Oliver had filled Sara in a little she would have said, nevermind, I'll take Sin.

 

Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with you. Sara's not a moron. She didn't need to know the extent of her family's tragic backstory post-Gambit to be able to suss out that inviting her sister's ex-boyfriend, a guy that Sara fucked around with while he was still dating her sister and was currently fucking around with despite their sordid history with said sister was A TERRIBLE IDEA. Literally all you need is two brain cells to rub together to figure that one out.

[wingster55]

The dinner was their attempt to gain sympathy for Laurel by making everyone else act like assholes to make her look better. It didn't work for me because I knew what they were doing. Laurel is a horribly written character making other characters act dumb to prop her up doesn't make her a better written character.

 

That's funny because I felt that they were throwing Laurel under the bus in the flashbacks in order to prop up Sara and Oliver. The calling the cops incident. The "Laurel is blind to Oliver's cheating" (because in s1 I don't recall any hint that Oliver cheated on Laurel with anyone other than Sara). 

[Sakura12]

Sara and Oliver had been through so much together that her family knows nothing about and didn't seem to care since they never asked any questions. Oliver and Sara now share a bond that no one else can ever have with them. They survived countless horrors while on that island, where just waking up the next day was an accomplishment.  Yes, it's messed up and stupid however finding comfort in each other after both surviving all that and more and to finally both be home makes complete sense to me. 

 

The affair they had has become such a small speck on the the lives they lead since then. While it was probably still fresh on the minds of Laurel and Quentin (Dinah might as well have not been there). So to me it was more of every one having a different thought process. Sara wanted someone in her corner, Oliver wanted to be there for her, Quentin wanted his family back like nothing happened, Dinah wanted to be awful and I have no idea what Laurel wanted, she had to be talked into it in the first place and I guess thought she was helping her parents get back together. 

[Genki]

The point I was trying to make earlier is that I don't think everyone needs to tip-toe around Laurel's feelings. I think Sara was very insecure because of what she experienced and what she had done, and her parents were kind of demonstrating (to me at least) that Laurel matters more, by enabling Laurel childish Addictive behaviour. She was nervous to be around Laurel. Oliver going was bad writing and trying to make Laurel relevant when she really wasn't, Oliver was still so far from emotionally healthy back in S2 but I think he knew it was going to be a bad, bad idea, but was willing to take the brunt of the fall-out for Sara.

 

I think even if Sara and Oliver weren't dating, Laurel would still feel excluded by them, because they have a share history of trauma, they were communicating with, and understanding eachother, on a level that Laurel would not understand, I think she would have still picked up on it regardless of Oliver and Sara's status.

[AyChihuahua]

That's funny because I felt that they were throwing Laurel under the bus in the flashbacks in order to prop up Sara and Oliver. The calling the cops incident. The "Laurel is blind to Oliver's cheating" (because in s1 I don't recall any hint that Oliver cheated on Laurel with anyone other than Sara). 

The pilot implied it, with the pics of him jaunting around with models.  (Also, just one cheating incident, with your gf's sister, is = to about 20 regular hoes.  Hos?)

[apinknightmare]

That's funny because I felt that they were throwing Laurel under the bus in the flashbacks in order to prop up Sara and Oliver. The calling the cops incident. The "Laurel is blind to Oliver's cheating" (because in s1 I don't recall any hint that Oliver cheated on Laurel with anyone other than Sara). 

 

They were always kind of sketchy with Oliver and Laurel's relationship. I'm not really sure what to make of it since the video they played of Oliver on the news post-return was one of him walking down a sidewalk with at least one chick (maybe two, I can't remember), and neither one of them were Laurel. So, without saying it, I always got the sense that he was unfaithful to her at some point prior to Sara, or they were at least on-again/off-again, and not at all serious. None of it makes a whole lot of sense given Laurel's idea of their relationship, thinking they were ready to  move in together.

Edited November 28, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Guest]

Yeah, I'll never accept Oliver and Sara going to that family dinner together. I don't think O/S should have hidden their relationship or felt guilty for being together because, as others have said, they both paid dearly for their mistakes before and they had every right to grab happiness where they found it. But it was bound to be a sensitive situation given their history and with that in mind, Laurel was owed a bit of caution and respect. Inviting Oliver was a bad idea and then throwing suggestive eyes at each other across the table was even worse. You just wouldn't do it. 

 

So yeah. I was 100% on Laurel's side there, probably the first and only time I've ever felt any kind of sympathy for her (until all the glass throwing and "You stole my life!" and then she lost it, I'm afraid). It was just a bad idea from start to finish. I understand Sara perhaps needing moral support but that's when Oliver should have given her a pep talk and maybe dropped her off like a supportive boyfriend and then left them to it. I mean, it was their first family dinner and Oliver's there too? WTF. Absolute nonsense. 

 

But I will never believe these were in-character choices. This was the writers going 'okay, we have to have that massive heated O/L argument so how do we get there?' The whole thing was contrived as hell. 

Edited November 28, 2015 by Guest

[AyChihuahua]

I'm not really sure what to make of it since the video they played of Oliver on the news post-return was one of him walking down a sidewalk with at least one chick (maybe two, I can't remember), and neither one of them were Laurel.

Two, I'm pretty sure.

 

It's funny, normally the cheating person is the one at fault, but they set it up so that even though pre-island Oliver was a total scumwad cheater, he was SUCH a total scumwad cheater that he somehow made Laurel look bad, for putting up with it.  Quite an accomplishment.

[hogwash]

Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with you. Sara's not a moron. She didn't need to know the extent of her family's tragic backstory post-Gambit to be able to suss out that inviting her sister's ex-boyfriend, a guy that Sara fucked around with while he was still dating her sister and was currently fucking around with despite their sordid history with said sister was A TERRIBLE IDEA. Literally all you need is two brain cells to rub together to figure that one out.

 

Yup. The story they set up with Sara staying in Starling to protect Laurel and Laurel being excited at the thought of seeing Sara went down the drain with one episode. I could buy that the horrible backstory was the shenanigans of immature 20-somethings. Then 214 happens and I get the distinct impression that Laurel actively loathes Sara and the feeling is mutual. Thanks 214 and the horrible Lance sisters!!

[Sakura12]

I think Oliver still would've gone even if they weren't dating. He's always been shown to be there for Sara, while he's barely ever there for Laurel. Laurel still would've picked up on Sara and Oliver's shared looks and bond. 

 

Laurel also should've been asking how they were so close if Oliver told them Sara died on the Gambit. That would've brought up them being on the island together (which even to this day I don't think anyone knows about that but Diggle and Felicity) and maybe would've made their relationship make a little more sense to the outsiders. Not make it right in anyway, but not such a WTF situation. 

Edited November 28, 2015 by Sakura12

[wingster55]

The pilot implied it, with the pics of him jaunting around with models.  (Also, just one cheating incident, with your gf's sister, is = to about 20 regular hoes.  Hos?)

 

Agreed on the second part...but the pilot didn't imply it really. It could have been when they were broken up (because I do think that happened quite often)

Laurel also should've been asking how they were so close if Oliver told them Sara died on the Gambit. That would've brought up them being on the island together (which even to this day I don't think anyone knows but that Diggle and Felicity)

 

Lance knows as of s3 (one of the reasons he snapped against Oliver)

[wonderwall]

Agreed on the second part...but the pilot didn't imply it really. It could have been when they were broken up (because I do think that happened quite often)

 

Did they have an on again off again relationship?  I didn't think so because if they did I'd have a hard time believing why Laurel would want to move in with him especially with such a volatile relationship. And if they did have an on again off again relationship and Oliver did bang a women while they were broken up, why would Laurel want to take him back if that's what Oliver did on his 'free time'?

[wingster55]

Did they have an on again off again relationship?  I didn't think so because if they did I'd have a hard time believing why Laurel would want to move in with him especially with such a volatile relationship. And if they did have an on again off again relationship and Oliver did bang a women while they were broken up, why would Laurel want to take him back if that's what Oliver did on his 'free time'?

 

Maybe not. But I also don't think that Oliver walking down a sidewalk to a club is any real indication of anything beyond his partying ways. 

[calliope1975]

While it wasn't in the first season, and I hate, hate, hate the story line, I do think TPTB had "Connor" planned since Day 1 of this show. And I don't think they ever planned on Oliver's long lost kid to have Laurel as a mother. That's all spec, but what is fact is they could have had Oliver cheat on Laurel with any rando woman. It could have been a one time thing. (He also could have been a faithful boyfriend and still have been a rich jerk.) Instead, TIIC created one of the most toxic backstories I've ever seen for some meant-to-be characters. I really hope there was some one in that writers' room who was all, ummm, this is a bad idea who got shot down, and I hope they laugh quietly to themselves at how poorly it turned out and how right they were. 

[AyChihuahua]

Maybe not. But I also don't think that Oliver walking down a sidewalk to a club is any real indication of anything beyond his partying ways. 

Because of course a guy who'd bang his serious girlfriend's sister would NEVER bang random models while dating said serious girlfriend.  He was probably helping them find their car.  Sure.

Edited November 29, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[hogwash]

They had to re-configure the entire show. That's a pretty great "I told you so." 

[wonderwall]

I don't think there's anything wrong in saying that everyone was shitty in regards to that ridiculous dinner. Even Sara, because while I think she's awesome, I think that inviting Oliver regardless of how vulnerable she was and making heart eyes at him at the table WAS inconsiderate. Sara made a mistake with that dinner, just like every character on this show has made a mistake. 

• Oliver was shitty for yelling at Laurel when for the first time she was actually in the right. He was also kind of shitty for not making Sara see sense and going to that dinner and making heart eyes at Sara
• Sara was shitty for being inconsiderate of Laurel's feelings by inviting Oliver to dinner and for being inconsiderate by making heart eyes at him at the dinner table
• Laurel was shitty to  Sara when she threw glass at her and yelled at her for stealing her life... What life was that exactly? 5 years of torture? Laurel didn't even once think of Sara and what she went through on that island. 

Everyone was shitty. No one was exempt from this shittiness. 

Edited November 29, 2015 by wonderwall

[AyChihuahua]

I don't think there's anything wrong in saying that everyone was shitty in regards to that ridiculous dinner. Even Sara, because while I think she's awesome, I think that inviting Oliver regardless of how vulnerable she was and making heart eyes at him at the table WAS inconsiderate. Sara made a mistake with that dinner, just like every character on this show has made a mistake. 

• Oliver was shitty for yelling at Laurel when for the first time she was actually in the right. He was also kind of shitty for not making Sara see sense and going to that dinner and making heart eyes at Sara
• Sara was shitty for being inconsiderate of Laurel's feelings by inviting Oliver to dinner and for being inconsiderate by making heart eyes at him at the dinner table
• Laurel was inconsiderate of Sara when she threw glass at her and yelled at her for stealing her life... What life was that exactly? 5 years of torture? Laurel didn't even once think of Sara and what she went through on that island. 

Everyone was shitty. No one was exempt from this shittiness. 

Quentin was also kind of shitty, with his whole "you're moving back, obvy" to Dinah.  Weirdly, I thought Dinah was fine that night, although in general she's also quite shitty.

[Guest]

LOL. If Oliver grew bold enough to sleep with his girlfriend's sister, he was already banging women on the side before that. Sleeping with Sara always seemed like a 'I got away with everything else why not her?' kind of move. So the news that Oliver cheated on Laurel with ten women that they knew of wasn't exactly news to me. 

[Sakura12]

Even if they did retcon it, the story that is canon now, is that Oliver was a serial cheater while with Laurel. Sara said he slept with 10 other women, 1 of which was her and another one who he got pregnant. Which I'm assuming was before he got with Sara, so his thought process was oops I almost became a dad, now I should go hook up with my girlfriends sister. That is not a true love story that anyone wants. 

[wonderwall]

Maybe not. But I also don't think that Oliver walking down a sidewalk to a club is any real indication of anything beyond his partying ways. 

I think if you see your boyfriend walking to a club (not a restaurant/office/or even a random store. A club, where people go to hook up/drink/dance (which Oliver apparently doesn't do)) with beautiful women next to him, it would be a bit worrying, not only that, but if cameras caught Oliver walking to a club, what makes you think that cameras never caught Oliver in flagrante with another woman? It's obvious Oliver had a reputation of being a playboy/womanizer. So his reputation of being a womanizer tagged along with photos of him and beautiful women... I think Laurel would've had to have been extremely naive, oblivious, or ignorant of what Oliver was doing. 

 

Also I think Oliver cheated on Laurel while they were dating... I think the baby momma happened when they were dating because Moira initially thought that Laurel was the one who was pregnant. What's worse is that when he got another girl pregnant, he literally laid his head on an unsuspecting Laurel's lap so she could comfort him about his latest screw up. That's just so gross. 

Edited November 29, 2015 by wonderwall

[hogwash]

Oliver totally got around before Sara cause he was (1)horrible and (2) too spineless to dump Laurel. It's hilarious to think that he'd go around thinking "OK, that one was pretty bad! Now she has to dump me!" but it doesn't work cause Laurel's bizarre. How did he get the idea to bone Sara? What is it a great epiphany? Like the plan to defeat Slade in the S02 finale? "She definitely won't take me back after this one!!!" So horrible and funny.

[AyChihuahua]

It's not a retcon; it's filling in blanks.  We had every reason to believe Oliver was a terrible cheater before we were specifically told he was a terrible cheater.  Nothing about Sara/Laurel/Oliver in s2 is a retcon, because none of it is a CHANGE from what we had been shown.  

 

It's so funny, the one constant in all this is that pre-island Oliver was an utter, total, complete turd.  I'm still hung up on him douching on the pizza delivery guy by stinting on the tip.  TOTAL DOUCHEBAG.  But yeah, he kind of pulled this weird thing where he was SUCH a douchebag that he makes Laurel, and everyone else, look pathetic for putting up with him.

[dtissagirl]

Now that that entire episode means nothing at all whatsoever to the storyline of any character at all, I just find it hilarious that Oliver didn't even want to go to that dumbass stupid dinner, but Felicity was super mad, and told him to go, and Oliver does what Felicity tells him to do because luuurve.

Edited November 29, 2015 by dtissagirl

[wingster55]

Nothing about Sara/Laurel/Oliver in s2 is a retcon, because none of it is a CHANGE from what we had been shown.

 

Laurel being petty and vindictive as a teen to call the cops on a party JUST to stop Sara from getting with Oliver is a big retcon. 

Sara having feelings first. 

 

These are retcons because they weren't a part of the narrative in s1. 

[AyChihuahua]

Even if they did retcon it, the story that is canon now, is that Oliver was a serial cheater while with Laurel. Sara said he slept with 10 other women, 1 of which was her and another one who he got pregnant. Which I'm assuming was before he got with Sara, so his thought process was oops I almost became a dad, now I should go hook up with my girlfriends sister. That is not a true love story that anyone wants. 

Didn't Sara actually say "We both know at least ten girls he's slept with."  Implying it's closer to 20 than 10?  

 

I'm not saying 20 is perfect mathematical accuracy, I'm saying Oliver was a total cheating douchebag, and Laurel is forever pathetic for not hardcore dumping his sorry ass. 

[wonderwall]

Now that that entire episode means nothing at all whatsoever to the storyline of any character at all, I just find it hilarious that Oliver didn't even want to go to that dumbass stupid dinner, but Felicity was super mad, and told him to go, and Oliver does what Felicity tells him to do because luuurve.

 

I love how a pissed off Felicity scares Oliver more than anything else :p 

 

Oliver probably: "Uh oh, work wifey is pissed. Gotta do what she says"

[Genki]

When Felicity is mad Oliver panics and make dumb decisions.

[wonderwall]

Laurel being petty and vindictive as a teen to call the cops on a party JUST to stop Sara from getting with Oliver is a big retcon. 

Sara having feelings first. 

 

These are retcons because they weren't a part of the narrative in s1. 

 

Was there any moment in the show in S1 that said Laurel wasn't petty/vindictive as a teen? Because if they weren't part of the narrative, then they're blank spaces to fill. Blank spaces to fill aren't retcons because they didn't change anything.

 

ETA: I mean I agree with you that, that little development about their past totally threw Laurel under the bus because it made her look incredibly shitty. But that doesn't mean that it was a retcon. 

Edited November 29, 2015 by wonderwall

[AyChihuahua]

Yeah, again, filling in blanks is NOT A RETCON.  If they come in and say that Laurel likes unicorns, it's NOT A RETCON, bc she's never said she doesn't like unicorns.  That is literally not what "retcon" means.

 

Pre-island Laurel is such a pathetic loser for putting up with Oliver.

Was there any moment in the show in S1 that said Laurel wasn't petty/vindictive as a teen?

Post-island Laurel is so petty and vindictive that she wanted her ex-boyfriend and sister to die for their sins.  So yeah, her having also been petty and vindictive as a teen is perfectly in character for her.

Edited November 29, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[wingster55]

No, it's technically not a retcon...but it really doesn't jive with what was shown in season 1. 

It's like Thea being Malcolm's daughter..not a retcon but definitely not something that was in the works. 

 

Or more appropriately...Felicity's gothness.

[Sakura12]

Didn't Sara actually say "We both know at least ten girls he's slept with."  Implying it's closer to 20 than 10?  

 

I'm not saying 20 is perfect mathematical accuracy, I'm saying Oliver was a total cheating douchebag, and Laurel is forever pathetic for not hardcore dumping his sorry ass. 

 

It could've been and I could buy Oliver and Sara having threesomes bringing his total up. 

[AyChihuahua]

It could've been and I could buy Oliver and Sara having threesomes bringing his total up. 

I've never been sure whether the boat was their first time actually together.  I think maybe it was?  But if not, they definitely had threesomes.  

[dtissagirl]

214 is a shitty episode about people being shitty, but it's also the moment they admitted utter defeat in their original premise that sister swapping would somehow develop into tru wuv. So I just find it THE FUNNIEST EPISODE now.

Sara's a jerk, Oliver's a dumbass, Laurel is right but comes off wrong because cognitive dissonance is embedded into her, but GOODBYE FOREVER DOOMED STORYLINE.

And here, let's have Felicity take a bullet for someone she just met and be the hero and save the day, and be instantly upgraded to LOVE INTEREST, caps required, even though Oliver's gonna be in a relationship with Sara for six more episodes because we're trying to fool y'all suckers who watch this shitty episode into believing he isn't completely gone for her yet.