Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[wonderwall]

That's...just so odd to me. Mainly because I never quit a show before the (at the earliest) mid-way point of the first season. I believe it just needs time to grow and find its identity. 

 

I give shows till mid season 1 to pique my interest. If it fails I usually stop watching. No point in watching something you don't enjoy right? I only returned to Arrow because I heard a lot of talk about Felicity/Team Arrow on tumblr. 

 

Shows I quit mid season 1: AoS, Gotham, Mad Men (whoops), Breaking Bad (double whoops), 30 Rock, New Girl, Louie...

[wingster55]

I've just seen so many shows that get better past that mid point, or even in s2 for me not to give it the benefit of the doubt. But this is going off topic

[wonderwall]

I've just seen so many shows that get better past that mid point, or even in s2 for me not to give it the benefit of the doubt. But this is going off topic

Last I'll talk about it on this thread but really quickly, I usually stop watching shows mid season 1, but I usually come back to them if I hear good things about them. For example: Arrow, Breaking Bad, 30 Rock, Parks and Rec... I don't feel like I'm missing out on other shows I quit tbh.

[BkWurm1]

That's...just so odd to me. Mainly because I never quit a show before the (at the earliest) mid-way point of the first season. I believe it just needs time to grow and find its identity. 

I wasn't even going to watch Arrow at all.  Smallville had only ended two years before and I was still fragile, lol.  I only ended up watching at all to check it out on behalf of a friend who had just given up broadcast television (he's a Hulu, Netflix, Roku guy) or at least that was the excuse I used to let myself watch after having sworn off any hero show on the CW ever again.  Then while the show had things about it that was interesting, it was just such a downer and I was already barely there in the first place. 

 

Typically shows I find interesting I will usually decide in the first or second episode if it's the type of thing I really want to watch, otherwise I rarely ever stop once I start.  (Unless something terrible happens like writing out a favorite character)  I usually can tell if I'm going to like a show just from the advertising. 

 

Right now I'm kind of hate watching Stitchers because while my instincts said to quit after the second episode, I listened to advice to give it longer and now I know even though I've ripped to the following two episodes to shreds, I've added it to my line up so I'll probably keep fitting it in.  It's the curse of the DVR.  It's too easy to save it up and then watch when you have nothing better to do (as opposed to doing actual chores or work)  So basically I'm saying it's too late for me to get out if I stick around past the third or fourth episode.  I'm stuck until the sucker is cancelled (Though usually I'm pretty good about avoiding those shows)

 

I don't honestly remember much of the pre-advertising for Arrow before it was on the air.  I know I went into it knowing he would be interacting with his family which was a change since the versions I know couldn't have a relationship with his parents (since they were dead).  I also assumed from the start that Thea aka speedy was going to be the show's eventual version of Mia Deardon.  I remember thinking that Thea's craving for Oliver to open up to her would quickly lead her to being a part of his world and really looking forward to that dynamic.  Then Roy showed up. 

 

I had a soft spot for Roy Harper after watching Young Justice so I always liked him but it did irk a little that his presence would delay Thea finding out about Oliver.  It was a good thing for both of the characters that their relationship made both of them more likable. 

 

I'm pretty sure that I knew a Oliver would have a former girlfriend waiting for his return but I don't think I knew if she was a new character or not until Tommy said her full name.  I remember after being disappointed earlier in the episode with Laurel being pleased since I liked Black Canary, plus she seemed like a much better character with Tommy so I thought maybe her character had just come off bad in the pilot so I was willing to give her another chance. 

Edited June 26, 2015 by BkWurm1

[AyChihuahua]

The voiceovers were terribad.  Even now, some of the earlier episodes that were quite good (e.g., Deadshot's first episode, IMO quite a good epi even outside the first Olicity moment - personally I really liked Oliver parkouring up the side of the building and digging out the bullet, plus the long moment of Oliver staring at Digg after Digg says he'll be watching Oliver pee from then on CRACKS ME UP every time) were nearly ruined by the terrible voiceover.  They needed characters he could actually talk to, as himself, not Fauxllie Queen, to let the viewers into his head and get rid of the awful voiceovers.

[olicityfan25]

Yeah that Diggle line was hilarious. Still think about it from time to time (I don't know why rofl) but it's so damn funny!

[TanyaKay]

One show that has used voice overs perfectly is Mr Robot. One episode in and I am hooked.

[romantic idiot]

Veronica Mars.

[joanne3482]

Please move along from voice overs and other shows. Thanks! 

[EmeraldArcher]

Before the S1 Bro-Angst and T/L/O Triangle of Doom, I LOVED the friendship between Tommy and Oliver.  As much as people have seen a different side of Oliver peeking out only after he first met Felicity and began to interact with her, I enjoyed the easy friendship between him and Tommy and felt that brought out a natural and lighter side of Oliver.  Sure, there were parts of their friendship that were probably douchey, like Oliver asking Tommy if he got laid at his funeral and Tommy's response that it had been like "fish in a barrel," but even that moment was funny and a relief from the strain of the family dinner the evening before.  I also like their conversation about Tommy dating Laurel and Oliver's line about there being no greeting card for that.  Tommy brought out Oliver's snarky humor like no other character in early S1, and it was great to see.  Lots of people point out the Felicity provided the comic relief, and she did, but the Tommy/Oliver bromance was bringing it first.

 

I also loved Tommy's appearance in "Three Ghosts."  That he was the one who pushed Oliver to keep fighting was such a beautiful tribute to their friendship, and I loved every bit of Colin Donnell's delivery.  It was fabulous that ghost-Tommy called Oliver a hero and that Felicity echoed it when she put on his mask back in the lair.  In fact, I think it's interesting that it's after ghost-Tommy's appearance and encouragement that Oliver lingers in Felicity's hug when he returns--he is still in her arms as he responds to Diggle by softly talking over her shoulder, and he looks down at her for a long moment before looking over to Diggle when they break the embrace.  It's almost as if Tommy not only pronounced him a hero, but reminded him of his humanity and need for emotional connection.

[AyChihuahua]

I brought up voiceovers in this thread because the reason they could get rid of the voiceovers is that they started developing more relationships, allowing him to speak his thoughts to other characters instead of having to do voiceovers.  Which most critics hated from the beginning.

 

I've always thought Tommy/Laurel was overrated.  It really was only okay by comparison to her other chemistry-lacking relationships, but I did like Tommy and Oliver.  Tommy was trying to grow up, too, even without five years in hell to make him grow up.

[EmeraldArcher]

I've always thought Tommy/Laurel was overrated.  It really was only okay by comparison to her other chemistry-lacking relationships, but I did like Tommy and Oliver.  Tommy was trying to grow up, too, even without five years in hell to make him grow up.

I so agree about Tommy and Laurel as a couple--she was just as selfish and abrasive in that relationship as she's been in all of her others.

I also agree about Tommy trying to grow up, and I wonder what his reaction/emotional response was to losing Oliver in the shipwreck. Not only would he have had to deal with his own grief and another tragic loss, but he was closely connected to everyone involved--Oliver's bereaved family and his devastated girlfriend. Furthermore, Tommy admired Oliver's father, who was another parental figure lost.

Given how much the loss of Oliver rippled through his life, I wonder if he gravitated toward Laurel in the same way Oliver did when he returned--as a reminder of a happier time in their lives before the complications of betrayal and loss.

[wingster55]

Lots of people point out the Felicity provided the comic relief, and she did, but the Tommy/Oliver bromance was bringing it first.

 

I agree. I also recall a few times (or maybe just once) when Oliver and Thea engaged in sibling banter to my amusement.  

[dtissagirl]

I so agree about Tommy and Laurel as a couple--she was just as selfish and abrasive in that relationship as she's been in all of her others.

I also agree about Tommy trying to grow up, and I wonder what his reaction/emotional response was to losing Oliver in the shipwreck. Not only would he have had to deal with his own grief and another tragic loss, but he was closely connected to everyone involved--Oliver's bereaved family and his devastated girlfriend. Furthermore, Tommy admired Oliver's father, who was another parental figure lost.

Given how much the loss of Oliver rippled through his life, I wonder if he gravitated toward Laurel in the same way Oliver did when he returned--as a reminder of a happier time in their lives before the complications of betrayal and loss.

 

I spent the entirety of S1 wondering if Tommy had been in love with Laurel since they were younger, but she only ever had eyes for Oliver. But in hindsight, I bet the writers never really thought about the backstory there, because in no moment at all it felt like the course would change, and Laurel/Tommy would be a thing for real. It was never ever anything other than temporary, and it was written that way. [And imo KC also acted that way.]

 

Not that they have exclusivity in the TEMPORARY neon sign that hung above them, Oliver/McKenna, Oliver/Sara, Felicity/Palmer were written exactly the same way. This show is the worst sometimes.

 

But there was a period right in the middle of S1, when Tommy was dealing with Malcolm being Worst Father In The Entire Universe, and Laurel was already being sidelined from being Oliver's helper, that it felt like their relationship could have gone better than the sad puppy in love with the headmistress vibe they had. But then Tommy turned on Oliver for plot, and that's when they wrote DOOMED on his forehead.

Edited June 27, 2015 by dancingnancy

[Chaser]

I know there is no in show confirmation, but I always got the feeling that Tommy had been carrying a torch for Laurel. I think it's because Tommy really had Laurel on a pedestal. Sadly you take what is confirmed into consideration, if Tommy did care deeply about Laurel pre-island he was a horrible friend. He was clearly in on all of Oliver's bad boy deeds. 

 

I doubt they realized at the time how messed up they were making Oliver/Laurel/Tommy. The show runners have all confirmed that these three grew up together. They were all supposed to be good friends. But its like they wrote an Oliver/Tommy history and an Oliver/Laurel history and a Tommy/Laurel history separately without making sure it made sense as a whole. Oliver and Tommy were playboys. Total party boys. Which implied that Tommy was a-okay with Oliver cheating on Laurel. But Tommy was also supposed to be Laurel's friend and like I said above, it was like he put her on a pedestal. All of that leads me to think that the real history was Oliver/Tommy with Laurel not so much the good friend but the good girlfriend that was played for the fool. It's messed up. 

 

From what I remember of the Tommy/Laurel relationship, they were trying to address Tommy's playboy past with Laurel. Which seemed odd it was so much of an issue 5 years later. It would have made more sense if Oliver's coming back brought up the mess of Tommy being aware of how Oliver was treating Laurel at the time. Bad memories.

 

I was never a Tommy/Laurel shipper because of reasons, but I think that whatever positive vibes I may have had on it are forever tinted by KC's head canon that Tommy took advantage of her. Plus Oliver backstabbing Tommy like that just pissed me off. Oliver and Tommy weren't back to what they could have been, this was clearly one of his most important human connections and he just tanks it. 

Edited June 28, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[AyChihuahua]

Arrow's lack of interest in portraying actual human emotional reactions really shows.  Everything mentioned re Tommy/Laurel/Oliver, the sister-swapping, pretty much every single emotional reaction in S3 (I exaggerate, but seriously, the team didn't seem all that sad when Oliver died, didn't seem all that happy when he un-died, immediately wrote him off after he went "evil," and I still cannot believe they had Felicity swan off with Oliver on a funzies road trip like 24 hours after she thought he killed her and everyone else...hey, I love the road trip o'sex as much as everyone, but she'd be so PTSDd she probably wouldn't be able to look him in the eye for a couple months).  I feel like that's just something the show sucks at, so if I keep watching I'll have to read good fanfic for realistic emotions.

[kismet]

Tommy had the potential to play so many more roles & relationships than what they gave him. I think I felt his loss more so in s3 than in s2, because he would have been a great sounding board for Oliver. Oliver was very isolated this season. And yes, he intentionally isolated himself to protect those that he loved. But still, I feel like Tommy was the first to know all the different sides of him (Oliver/Ollie/Arrow) and see the struggle that it was to maintain so many facades. Even when he was at odds with OQ, you could tell that he cared about him deeply. Dig & FS only really know Oliver/Arrow, so sometimes they can't understand his struggle to deal with Ollie issues/past. Up until this season TQ & LL only really know Ollie, with a few bursts of Oliver. Sara knew all of his sides, but they decided to kill her for reasons. 

 

So OQ was left to sorta fumble around this season with no one to really guide him. He needed someone to help him get his head out of his ass, and I feel like the only one that could have done it this season would have been Tommy. A lot of OQ hesitation to pursue a relationship with FS in my perspective was that he did not want to hurt her as OQ. It wasn't the ARROW that put her in harm's way. It was all his perspective on life and the balance that he was struggling with. Tommy knowing all sides of him pre/post island would have been better to equipped to help him over Diggle, who didn't seem to really understand OQ's struggles this season. His only real romantic relationship experience came as Ollie and he sucked at those. His island & post-island were more like friendships with a side of sex. I feel like Tommy would have helped him see that he was no longer that party-boy. He would have helped him find balance. He probably also would have helped with the whole MM issues.  

 

I wish they had done with Tommy what they did with McKenna - give him a serious injury and have him move out of town to recuperate. That way even if they couldn't secure CD for scenes, OQ could still reference calling him for advice. I can not say how disappointed I was that it was Maseo that rescued OQ and not Tommy. Tommy's death served a purposes that could have been achieved without his death. OQ was already on his way to not killing people. Almost causing the death of your best friend could have been an inspiration as well, especially if they planned on killing Moira in the end of the season. He still could have put himself on that island after s1 finale. Everything else could have played out plotwise the same way, except OQ could have someone to help him in s3 when everything fell apart. I just think they played their hand too quickly with Tommy. They should have kept him alive, perhaps off camera, but alive.

[EmeraldArcher]

Everything else could have played out plotwise the same way, except OQ could have someone to help him in s3 when everything fell apart. I just think they played their hand too quickly with Tommy. They should have kept him alive, perhaps off camera, but alive.

I find it frustrating that the EPs claimed in S1&2 that it was so hard, but so necessary to kill Tommy and then Moira because their deaths drove Oliver's story (and it is his story, they emphasized), only to dilute Oliver's story in S3 by cramming it with so many other people who are tangential (at best) to his story: Laurel as BC (ugh, enough said), Ray (ugh, Oliver's story was highjacked to launch his), Malcolm (ugh, I've heard he's GA's nemesis, but that wasn't played up well at all), and even Nyssa (ugh, love her, but she's simply a popular character and doesn't drive Oliver's story--she was actually there for Laurel's story in S3). At least Sara shared his experiences and was a manifestation of the darkest possibilities of what he could have been.

I just feel that they squandered their opportunity to move Oliver's story forward when they stripped his life of almost everyone who helped to define who he is.

[Morena]

‘Arrow:’ 5 Reasons Why Fans Love The Oliver/Felicity Aka ‘Olicity’ Relationship

http://www.fashionnstyle.com/articles/66562/20150627/arrow-5-reasons-why-fans-love-oliver-felicity-olicity-relationship.htm

Edited June 29, 2015 by Morena

[tv echo]

Laura Hurley writes about why she thinks the Lauriver romance was canned (combination of factors) and why she thinks it will not be revived (I'm not so sure about that)...

 

Here's a random q (if you have the time/interest). I'm watching S1 of Arrow and as a dedicated Felicity/Olicity fan I was surprised at how I didn't have an issue with Laurel/Laurel and Oliver. I keep hearing no chemistry between SA/KC etc. but I'm not seeing a huge warning light for them In your opinion, why do you think they canned the Lauriver plot. Or do you think they've just shelved it? Thanks in advance - I love reading your metas :).
Jun 28, 2015 6:02 pm
http://laurawritesabout.tumblr.com/post/122708800092/heres-a-random-q-if-you-have-the-time-interest

Edited June 29, 2015 by tv echo

[Chaser]

I'm in line with Hurley. I didn't see any chemistry between KC and SA but some times things just need to grow for the audience. But the horrible backstory, plus the inconsistent and unhealthy present time interactions, just turned off viewers. The lack of chemistry just made it easier for the audience to turn apathetic to them. Oliver and Laurel didn't inspire interest. They still don't. We can look at cons and online polls, but look at the 2.5. Comics and Vixen. They did three Laurel-heavy issues in a row. I didn't see any promotion for them. The first issue I can kind of understand, but there was enough time between the first issue and the last to figure out if they were popular. Vixen is featuring the voices of SA, GG, EBR and CV. It doesn't debut until the Fall and I know there is tons of pre-production work on cartoons but I would think they would have had enough time to gage the interest level in featuring KC as well. 

 

Story wise I think they have gone too far at establishing Oliver and Felicity and basically wiping Oliver and Laurel clean, to be able to go back in any way that would make sense. But there could be outside factors and nothing is set in stone so it could still happen and the audience will either deal with the back and forth, quit or get on board with Oliver and Laurel.

Edited June 29, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[AyChihuahua]

If EBR left the show I think they'd go with someone new before they'd go back to Laurel.  And I think they'd chem-test the hell out of the actress with SA beforehand.  If that ever happens I hope they don't kill Felicity, just have her leave.  I swear, looking back at S2 and especially S3, half the time I think Felicity should dump the crap out of Oliver and head to Gotham to meet that nice Wayne guy.

[lemotomato]

Seriously? If there's any other DC hero with a worse relationship history than Oliver Queen, I'd say it's Bruce Wayne.

Edited June 29, 2015 by lemotomato

[AyChihuahua]

I was joking.  I don't think anyone has ever, in any medium, referred to Bruce Wayne as "that nice Wayne guy."

[lemotomato]

Heh, yeah. Sorry I didn't catch the sarcasm. In my defense, there have been a considerable amount of fanfic that paired Felicity with Bruce Wayne, so it does seem to be a thing in fandom.

Edited June 29, 2015 by lemotomato

[Angel12d]

From a character and chemistry POV, I don't think there's any going back to O/L, not after the way they set up O/F as the couple. I've said this repeatedly, I know, but they linked Felicity to Oliver's humanity, and Oliver to Felicity's happiness. Aside from his family, she was the last thing he saw before he essentially died. How do you un-ring that bell? You don't. You can't. Right?

 

Saying all that, it's likely this show will go on for more than 5/6 seasons (it really shouldn't) and I don't trust the writers not to try, regardless of O/L's gross toxic backstory. It doesn't seem to be much of an issue for them as they wouldn't have written it in the first place. 

 

One thing's for sure: I could probably handle O/F being apart for awhile, but I would NEVER watch this show if O/L got back together. For one it would be unbearable trying to make that lack of chemistry work and secondly, IMO, it would taint O/F's relationship. Naw son. Count me out if that happens. But again, who knows?!

Edited June 29, 2015 by Angel12d

[dtissagirl]

They even HINT at the possibility of Laurel/Oliver again, and I'm out so quick I'll get whiplash, but I'm never ever gonna watch a single second of L/O again EVER.

[Chaser]

L/O is the very definition of NOTP to me. It sounds super dramatic, but I can't stomach that pairing. The idea of watching Oliver and Laurel making googly eyes at each other and dramatic love confessions .... I can't even.

 

Maybe my imagination isn't very good, but what would they even say to each other...Remember that time my sister was murdered and you lied to me about the killer? Protected him? Teamed up with him? Remember when I needed support and you told me No? Called me an addict? Let me get hurt instead of training me?

 

ETA: That is just S3. Consider S1/ S2

Edited June 29, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[Balaclava]

From a character and chemistry POV, I don't think there's any going back to O/L, not after the way they set up O/F as the couple. I've said this repeatedly, I know, but they linked Felicity to Oliver's humanity, and Oliver to Felicity's happiness. Aside from his family, she was the last thing he saw before he essentially died. How do you un-ring that bell? You don't. You can't. Right?

 

Saying all that, it's likely this show will go on for more than 5/6 seasons (it really shouldn't) and I don't trust the writers not to try, regardless of O/L's gross toxic backstory. It doesn't seem to be much of an issue for them as they wouldn't have written it in the first place. 

 

One thing's for sure: I could probably handle O/F being apart for awhile, but I would NEVER watch this show if O/L got back together. For one it would be unbearable trying to make that lack of chemistry work and secondly, IMO, it would taint O/F's relationship. Naw son. Count me out if that happens. But again, who knows?!

 

I doubt SA will want to do Arrow past season 5/6 but anything can happen.

It's impossible to know with 100% certainty if the eps will never go back to O/L but having said that i can't see how.Like you said O/F are deeply tied to one another in much more than one way,Felicity is connected to Oliver's journey to become a hero and Olicity is the epic love every hero's story has.

If they ever try O/L again, if they ever so much hint in that direction i'll be out in a blink of an eye.But i'll say what i said a few times in some convos regarding Olicity or O/L, as long as we have SA on Olicity side, we're safe IMHO

Edited June 29, 2015 by Balaclava

[NumberCruncher]

Maybe my imagination isn't very good, but what would they even say to each other...Remember that time my sister was murdered and you lied to me about the killer? Protected him? Teamed up with him? Remember when I needed support and you told me No? Called me an addict? Let me get hurt instead of training me?

...all while yelling and making bitchface at each other.

[kismet]

Never say never... but I can't really see the writers/producers going back to a L/O pairing after the lengths they went to this season to set O/F as the couple, connect FS to his humanity/hero journey. I mean OQ did nothing this season romantically except pine for a girl who could have had, but was choosing at great pains to himself to keep at arms length. If they had wanted to set bread crumbs for a return to L/O, s3 IMO would have been the season. There were many realistic opportunities (training, mourning, team building, sheer loneliness) to bring L/O in close quarters to hint of a reconnecting, but every opportunity was squashed with much gusto.

 

Honestly, the back-story was hard to swallow in s1 for L/O, but I could roll with it for a bit. Until they careened off the road with s2. They killed Tommy, brought Sara back to life (& OQ's bed), turning to FS/TA for emotional support and still had OQ sleeping around with other women in s1/2, to me the L/O relationship had taken too many catastrophic blows to be willing to invest any amount of interest in it. By s3, they sealed the deal by accelerating O/F relationship & OQ's man pain over it. I truly have to wonder who would want OQ for LL at this point, there is just so much she has to willing to forgive & get over. It's just not a relationship that seems to make them better or is it worthwhile to pursue romantically.

[AyChihuahua]

They didn't even have him look longingly at Laurel in The Return flashback.  Instead, he looked longingly at Felicity.  That made it pretty clear that unless there are insane backroom shenanigans, it ain't gonna be L/O again.  And if there were any backroom shenanigans to be had, they would have happened already, because if being the LI was in KC's contract we'd know by now, and obviously when she re-ups TPTB would have no reason to write it in.  If they have EBR locked in for the show's run, which they probably do, she's it.

[NumberCruncher]

I never really thought about it that way but you're right that all the retconning of Lauriver in the flashbacks was clearly done for a reason (i.e. not putting them back together). Then again, this show is not above retconning storylines and ignoring consistency if they need to for plot reasons so I wouldn't put it past them to pull a "Nevermind! We were totally kidding" and push Oliver and Laurel together again.

[wingster55]

I hated the retconning with a fiery passion. Like...do they have to do that just to put the focus on F/O? Why change things like that? It's pretty easy to show that at one time Oliver loved Laurel, and now he doesn't. 

[Chaser]

It's weird. The actually had Oliver and Laurel verbalize to each other that they can't go back in Ep1 of S2. It could have served to end Oliver and Laurel, but they took it further and made Laurel the jealous older sister in the Sara-Oliver-Laurel tale. They had Laurel almost force feed Oliver that photographic lifeline before he got on that boat.

 

I think that MG & company decided to switch to Oliver/Felicity early on in S2, but assuming they weren't 100% percent yet (maybe they needed the go-ahead from DC, maybe they were still weighing options) I think they had already made the choice to burn Oliver and Laurel to the ground. 

[dtissagirl]

Stephen's face is not capable of showing Oliver loved Laurel once. It just isn't. His mind might be willing, but his face nopes it instead.

[DrSpaceman10]

Did Oliver ever really love Laurel, though? If you love someone you don't cheat on them with their sister, imo. 

[Chaser]

I actually think he wasn't bad at first but by the end of the season it was painful. I had mentioned before that the Oliver and Laurel moments in S1 were losing a lot of passion or intimacy or something as the season went on (seriously, compare their first kiss to their sex scene/last kiss). And the good-bye scene is cringe worthy acting. If I was trying to prove SA could act, I would lose major credibility points with that scene. Every time I think about Oliver and Laurel being romantic, that's what I remember. 

 

Basically, he stopped trying.

 

S3 gave nothing to Oliver and Laurel shippers. I know that some shippers were holding on to Laurel becoming BC and that starting off the Oliver and Laurel team-up. Didn't quite happen that way. He may have acknowledged her as a hero at the end of the season, but it was apart of a group shot. It wasn't a 'moment' like Diggle, Felicity or Roy got. It was in the same speech as Ray Palmer, a guest star. Then he left the city with Felicity. No good-bye to Laurel. Just Diggle, Thea and freakin' Malcolm.

Edited June 30, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[dtissagirl]

I don't really think these writers plot arcs to cater to online reaction. But sometimes I do wonder if all of the gazillion things they did to minimize Laurel's importance to Oliver is a direct response to people still asking them about L/O and comics. And that answer MG gave on Tumblr about Laurel fans asking him about L/O and comics made me wonder again.

Which translates into hilarity for my viewing pleasure, because every single time they go out of their way to make sure Laurel is sidelined I point and laugh a lot, but otoh, my analytical side sees it as extremely bad writing. The horse is dead. Stop trying to kill it again.

Edited June 30, 2015 by dancingnancy

[statsgirl]

But people still don't get it.  I was talking to a friend of mine who really has no ships on this show and even after 3x20 she still thought that Felicity was a short term fling because Oliver sleeps with every woman and that he would go back to Laurel eventually.

 

I don't think Oliver knew what love was before the island.  That's not really that strange, he was only 22 and spoiled rotten but the great Oliver/Laurel romance seemed more created in her head than his.  Like dropping out of one college and moving on to the next one, Oliver was just skating through life, going for all the good things and trying to avoid the bodychecks from Laurel and other authority figures.

 

I only really get into a show when there is a character or relationship I really care about.  I may have got there through Oliver/Diggle by mid-season 1 but more likely I would have dropped it long before then or left it as living wallpaper.  The first two episodes there wasn't a single character I cared enough to tune in to see what happens to them, and then Felicity Smoak appeared.  My the time Diggle was snarking about the island having no MySpace, I was hooked.

 

Given how much the loss of Oliver rippled through his life, I wonder if he gravitated toward Laurel in the same way Oliver did when he returned--as a reminder of a happier time in their lives before the complications of betrayal and loss.

That makes sense, but I also think that Tommy gravitated to Laurel because he was basically a Lost Boy, no mother, his father abandoning him, Oliver gone.  He had no sense of direction after Oliver 'died' and Laurel would not only have brought back a  relatively happy time in his life, she was also bossy enough to give him direction and a bit of a purpose.  Would it have lasted?  I don't know. Maybe, if she learned that he was the love of her life in time.

 

I was never a Tommy/Laurel shipper because of reasons, but I think that whatever positive vibes I may have had on it are forever tinted by KC's head canon that Tommy took advantage of her. Plus Oliver backstabbing Tommy like that just pissed me off. Oliver and Tommy weren't back to what they could have been, this was clearly one of his most important human connections and he just tanks it. 

Yes to both of those. Oliver backstabbing Tommy like that was worse than his killing people to me because even a  hit man can be true to those he loves (see Laughren, Floyd).

 

KC saying that Tommy took advantage of Laurel ruined the only thing I liked about Laurel in the first 2 1/2 seasons.

 

So OQ was left to sorta fumble around this season with no one to really guide him. He needed someone to help him get his head out of his ass, and I feel like the only one that could have done it this season would have been Tommy.

He had Diggle though.  It's going to take me a long time to forgive Diggle for being 100% Team Oliver, not only in Draw Back Your Bow when he expected Felicity to give up her social life because Oliver wasn't handling it well, even though he had turned her down flat in s1 when she asked him to do the same, but also when Oliver got back from fighting Ra's and Diggle acted like Felicity was no more important than Laurel.  Less important than Laurel actually because at least Diggle spoke up for Laurel's side when Oliver tried to shut her out. He didn't do that for Felicity.

 

I find it frustrating that the EPs claimed in S1&2 that it was so hard, but so necessary to kill Tommy and then Moira because their deaths drove Oliver's story (and it is his story, they emphasized), only to dilute Oliver's story in S3 by cramming it with so many other people who are tangential (at best) to his story: Laurel as BC (ugh, enough said), Ray (ugh, Oliver's story was highjacked to launch his), Malcolm (ugh, I've heard he's GA's nemesis, but that wasn't played up well at all), and even Nyssa (ugh, love her, but she's simply a popular character and doesn't drive Oliver's story--she was actually there for Laurel's story in S3). At least Sara shared his experiences and was a manifestation of the darkest possibilities of what he could have been.

Yeah, can I offer you some more of this snake oil?  Tommy's death was necessary for Oliver's story, Moira's death was necessary for it as was Sara's but not Slade's or Malcolm's, and when it came to s3, they made a hash out of Oliver's story with Ra's because they were so busy building up Laurel, Ray and even Thea.

[SmallScreenDiva]

I hated the retconning with a fiery passion. Like...do they have to do that just to put the focus on F/O? Why change things like that? It's pretty easy to show that at one time Oliver loved Laurel, and now he doesn't. 

 

I didn't see it as retconning for F/O as much as not putting the spotlight on Laurel and Oliver. The retconning that happened on the show was in service of Sara/Oliver, IMO, when they threw Laurel under the bus and made her the bad guy by having Sara talk about her big sister getting her grounded so she could hook up with the boy Sara liked. Which never made sense to me because at that point the show was trying to get me to like Laurel -- or at least I thought that was what they were trying to do (they didn't succeed obviously). I would love for someone to ask the writers about that 10 years from now when they're doing the con circuit. Why make Laurel look bad to give Oliver/Sara a boost?

[Angel12d]

Did Oliver ever really love Laurel, though? If you love someone you don't cheat on them with their sister, imo. 

 

I really hate to be the kind of shipper who lessens previous relationships and thinks that her ship are the loves of each other's lives. I mean, I'm fully aware that people can fall in love again and it doesn't lessen what came previously. And I do think Oliver loved Laurel on some level (because I feel like Oliver loves very easily sometimes) but the way their relationship was presented makes me question whether he was in love with her at all. There was all the cheating (and with her sister which I find repulsive) and the running away from commitment. Even after the island he still slept with other women. He's lied to her, and he still does. He never confided in her and still doesn't. They don't even seem to be friends. 

 

I believe Oliver fell in love with the idea of his relationship with Laurel when he was on the island because it was something to hold onto. Like a beacon of hope. And when that happens you often forget all the bad things about a relationship and it becomes something it wasn't. That's pretty much how I view O/L's relationship. I think a lot of what happened in S1 was wrapped up in history and regret and Oliver trying to fix something that couldn't be fixed and that never came across as an epic love to me. Not once. 

 

And then when I contrast how he is with Felicity, there's just no comparison. So no. IMO, I don't think he was deeply in love with Laurel at all. But I think that could be up to interpretation. 

[Chaser]

I don't understand flashback Oliver and Laurel. This guy peed on cop cars, slept around and dropped out of four schools. She went to law school and dreamed of picket white fences.  

[wingster55]

It was a retcon, because after 5 years it was clear that he wanted to see her for whatever reason. But in s3 he had no reaction to seeing her. Really? Not even guilt?

 

And the premise was that even though Oliver did those things..Laurel saw something in him which to be fari was there all along.

[Chaser]

That's where the disconnect happened between the Oliver and Laurel and the audience. I think if we had seen a glimpse of that Oliver that supposedly existed, it could have been a very different story. The only time that I saw something deeper in flashback Oliver was in the Baby Mama episode. That was also probably the sweetest we had seen Oliver and Laurel. But it wasn't prompted by Laurel or inspired by Laurel, it was the random one night stand and the baby that wasn't and Laurel played for the fool.

[lemotomato]

And the premise was that even though Oliver did those things..Laurel saw something in him which to be fari was there all along.

That reasoning never worked for me because we were never shown anything in the flashbacks that indicated pre-island Oliver was anything but spoiled, stupid, and selfish. I can't think of an instance when there were signs of anything deeper than that. When Oliver gave his speech in 1x23 about how the island didn't change him, but had only scraped away all the things he wasn't, I was left wondering WHEN were we shown this? It felt as forced as Laurel's "I know you like I know my own name" moment in season 2.

[dtissagirl]

Yeah. Imo if there hadn't been the island, Oliver would still be gross and playboy-ing it out. He'd be pre-cave Tony Stark for the rest of his life, except stupider. Spoiled manchild mama's boy married to a chick who sounds just like mommy when she sternly speechifies down to him. Very Oedipus and all.

I doubt he'd ever work a single day in his life, even. He'd have a fancy position at QC, but he'd never put any effort into it. That's all I get from the pre-island Oliver flashbacks we got. No "something more" whatsoever.

[AyChihuahua]

I find it interesting that Felicity has shown no jealousy/defensiveness re Laurel and Oliver.  I mean there was some awkwardness with S/O/F in Time of Death, but the last time Felicity was at all jealous of Oliver and Laurel was probably "you can have him back in a minute" in early S2.  If they were still pushing some "meant to be" L/O crap, you'd think Felicity would mention it or make a funny face at her or something.  She did a little in S1 and maybe early S2, but nothing since then.  She showed zero thought re Oliver even thinking of another woman throughout S3 (in fairness he had his head so far up his ass she knew he couldn't actually see out to look at another woman).  I feel like that's another sign that L/O is not coming back.  

 

Re no-island Ollie...if his dad had still died he might have grown up a LITTLE, but he'd still be pretty douchey.  But yeah, no island and no dead dad = absolutely intolerable jackass, and not even fun jackass.

Edited June 30, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[tv echo]

I just don't trust these EPs.  Yes, Felicity was the last thought in dying Oliver's mind - but he also stared at a picture of Laurel on the island in the first year.  Yes, Felicity has been tied to Oliver's humanity - but she could be turned into just a necessary stage in his hero journey, like Gwen Stacy or Lana Lang - the one that changes him from Arrow to GA.  It's really all up to the EPs.  Plus they have shown no compunction about retconning the past to set up their desired future.

 

With all due respect to others' opinions here ;), I don't think that S3 was the season where the EPs would've started hinting at a GA/BC team-up and laying the foundation for a future O/L reunion, because S3 Oliver needed to be isolated from everyone else in service to the becoming Ra's storyline.  I think that S4 will the season where the EPs could - if they want to - start teaming up GA & BC and - again if they want to - start dropping hints about a future O/L re-hookup.  I really hope not, but this next season will be critical.

 

Because I've been watching Poldark... I see Laurel as Elizabeth and Felicity as Demelza.  Laurel is the girl that Oliver loved before he went away and the girl that he still had lingering feelings for when he returned home, only to find that she hooked up with his best friend during his absence.  Felicity is the girl that was an unexpected surprise and the girl that becomes necessary to Oliver's happiness in his new life after he returns home.  She is the one who fits his future. 

 

With respect to retconning O/L, I agree that it was done to prop up O/S in S2.  I still suspect that the EPs were (at one point) considering keeping Sara as the BC and either dropping Laurel or making her a different superhero.  I think that Warner Bros. & DC Comics wanted a BC on TV in S3 for their own reasons, so the EPs had to choose between Sara or Laurel, and they ultimately went with Laurel for whatever reason (her name, contract, story options, etc.).  I have no facts to back up my suspicions, just speculation based on the unwarranted O/L retconning, CL being given BC comics to read by DC Comics when she was cast, Sara's heavy presence in S2, and KC's lack of promotions/silence during S2 and her subsequent giddy joy over being given Sara's jacket at the end of S2.

Edited June 30, 2015 by tv echo

[Chaser]

I take comfort in two things. 1) The show is out of my hands and 2) I can turn off the TV.

 

I don't watch what I don't enjoy. Hate-watching is a waste of time and energy. If the show goes back to Oliver and Laurel, which it certainly could, then I will say good bye and find something else to watch. Going back to them after everything that has happened, would be a huge regression for Oliver and as a Felicity fan, I wouldn't what her anywhere near that. There are some couples that I can watch the break-up-date-others-make-up cycle, but if Oliver and Felicity (I don't even care which one initiates it) breaks up and Oliver gets back together with Laurel then I'm not waiting around for an Olicity reunion. I would want them done. I can live in fanon.  

Edited June 30, 2015 by 10Eleven12