Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[apinknightmare]

I suppose Oliver's dream kiss could have been more heated because duh, it's his dream and he should be imagining throwing her up against the wall or something but I guess when they finally (hopefully) do kiss again, it wouldn't seem as impactful if we'd already seen a really passionate make-out. I feel like they're saving it for a big moment. Fingers crossed.

 

I think the fact that Stephen Amell had to keep fake blood in his mouth tamped down the heat on that one. :)

 

I've liked their kisses so far. They've all been pretty chaste on purpose. Hopefully he'll put her up against the wall sometimes before the season ends.

[jay741982]

Olicity kisses have been pretty chaste but I don't mind. The one in 301 was really emotional and intense and showed me they were in love. It was a longing kiss goodbye in a way. A passionate kiss wasn't right at that moment.

 

I suppose Oliver's dream kiss could have been more heated because duh, it's his dream and he should be imagining throwing her up against the wall or something but I guess when they finally (hopefully) do kiss again, it wouldn't seem as impactful if we'd already seen a really passionate make-out. I feel like they're saving it for a big moment. Fingers crossed.

Yeah they have to be saving a heated make out Session for when they kiss again. Also Felicitys I love You

[calliope1975]

This new team just doesn't work. I understand the added layer Roy can give Oliver as a mentee. But what does he bring as Arsenal? What can he do better than Diggle? And Laurel? She is a liability in the field, both in her lack of phyiscal ability and emotional maturity. So remove her from the action. What does she offer in the Foundry? She isn't a doctor. Tech wise, what can she do better then Felicity?  

 

Both Roy and Laurel could offer something outside the Foundry. Roy could be their connection to the streets; their informant. Laurel could be their connection to the Law.

 

Agreed. It's why I felt Team Flash + Lyla fit in so well in the lair even though it should have been too crowded. Each person brought something unique to the room. Roy was fine in his 1 line per episode role, but he can't replace the Arrow and CH sure as hell can't replace SA. Laurel could be doing great things for the community in the DA's office not matching her lips to her nails. /sigh

[quarks]

Potentially controversial opinion here:

After seeing the various Felicity kisses this season and catching up on past seasons on Netflix, I'm of the opinion that neither SA nor EBR are really strong at doing sexy kisses/love scenes

 

I've never seen EBR in anything except Arrow, so I can't speak for her, but based on Hung, Stephen Amell is definitely capable of/strong with the sexy stuff.

[Ang]

I don't need to see sexy times, I'm good with it playing out in my mind...

I completely agree with this, and that the kisses have been chaste on purpose, but the head tilt thing caught my attention. From what I could tell, the success of the previous kisses/love scenes we've seen with Oliver were entirely dependent on the actress, and now I'm really curious about what they'll try to show us and whether it will work. 

 

 

I've never seen EBR in anything except Arrow, so I can't speak for her, but based on Hung, Stephen Amell is definitely capable of/strong with the sexy stuff.

 

Interesting. Maybe I'm dead wrong! That would be nice. As would, you know, Olicity happening in any reasonable form. (I'm still scared they'll try to screw with us even more and if/when they hook up it'll be while she's with Ray or something horrible like that. If they go there I'm pretty sure I will be DONE.)

[quarks]

Yeah it's fucking bullshit cause there is no reason why MG had to do this. I don't understand how this is evolving the show for the better. Felicity and Oliver were fine and she has way better chemistry with Oliver . But they make Oliver stupid so they can force Ray on us. It's obvious Ray is a Substitute for Oliver. But of course Laurel and Ray must be forced on people and MG works to hurt what made the show great

 

 

Well, there is a reason, it's just not a reason I'm happy with.  The show is trying to sell Ray on us. So the idea apparently is to:

 

1. Pair him up with Felicity, a popular character, in the hopes of having that popularity spill over.

 

2. Repeat the Oliver/Felicity plot, where Oliver continually comes to Felicity for tech support, only in this case, Ray is continually coming to Felicity for tech support.

 

3. And since Oliver/Barry are each popular enough to have their own shows, attempt to sorta combine their characters: Oliver's billionaire/vigilantism/salmon ladder/sad past stuff; Barry's eager science stuff/social awkwardness stuff, with an added dollop of Felicity attraction.

 

Basically, it's fairly standard Hollywood practice (which is why I don't like it): just try to repeat what worked. 

 

Which is why the Ray/Felicity romance side of it is a bit odd - Oliver/Felicity worked because it wasn't initially presented as a romance, beyond the meet cute and very light flirtation: just two people slowly becoming friends.  Felicity/Barry worked because although that was initially presented as a potential romance, it was just kept to mutual interest, lots of cuteness, and two episodes. The Oliver/Sara hookup, and Sara coming joining Team Arrow, though, was one of the least popular decisions this show has ever made -- ratings had just started to recover from the winter hiatus (post the introduction of superpowers, Shado's death, the reveal of Deathstroke as the main villain, and the announcement that the next few episodes would focus on Laurel), but plunged after that, staying low with the slight exception of the "Birds of Prey" episode, which was still low compared to the rest of the series, and only started to recover after Sara broke up with Oliver and left Team Arrow - and Sara was a generally popular character. Prior to the hookup, several fans even argued that Oliver/Sara should be the endgame pairing.

 

So repeating this seems a bit odd, even if it's too early to tell if Ray/Felicity will have the same effects on the ratings, if/once they start officially dating. Ratings did soar, granted, post "Draw Back Your Bow," but that was for the Flash crossover episode.  The ratings for "Draw Back Your Bow," were just ok, and reviews/fan response were mixed.   I get the idea of repeating success, but repeating failure is something else.  I think this would have been fine had it been kept to Barry/Felicity levels - focus on cute, cute, cute, not to mention someone who originally entered the show helping Team Arrow (like Barry) instead of taking over Oliver's company and asking Felicity to do evening/nightmare activities that pull her away from Team Arrow - right after two episodes where Oliver/Diggle pointed out that they needed Felicity.  

 

And now, of course, any Ray/Felicity interaction is happening after Oliver has told Felicity that he loves her, thought about Felicity prior to falling off a cliff, and dreamed about her - all elements to encourage the audience to cheer for an Oliver/Felicity romance, and regard Ray/Felicity as an obstacle to Oliver's happiness - not something designed to get the audience cheering. To have this as a setup for a spinoff feels a bit odd, and for me, is even more of a "What are they thinking?" than anything happening with Laurel, though I completely understand why so many people here disagree with me on that last bit :)

[Tangerine]

We were chatting in the Clock Tower Theatre thread about how Felicity should've been talking about Robert being cute in that picture where Oliver looked like a frat boy serial killer and the discussion of Felicity being into older guys came up:
 

And I love the idea of Felicity being into older guys, and I'm having fun retconning it in my head: she's just been showing a friendly affection and appreciation for Oliver and his physical capabilities. This season, she's been going along with him on the whole dating/romance thing, because sure, he's nice enough, and after he showed he doesn't actually plan to be with her, she's been trying, awkwardly, to shake him off without actually having to embarrass him by admitting she's not into him. Ooh, and she really could end up with Ronnie/Firestorm's dad and and up his step mom like in the comics! Or they can take some creative license on The Flash and kill off Clarissa so she can hook up with Victor Garber's character!

 

I think Felicity should hook up with Wells. Or Detective Joe West over on The Flash. It'd be way more fun then hooking her up with Ray.

[Chaser]

I vote Wells! TC for the Win!

[statsgirl]

Felicity and Wells would be interesting. I wouldn't wish him on Felicity long term, she needs someone who she could love and trust, but it would definitely be interesting for a time.

 

 

So repeating this seems a bit odd, even if it's too early to tell if Ray/Felicity will have the same effects on the ratings, if/once they start officially dating. Ratings did soar, granted, post "Draw Back Your Bow," but that was for the Flash crossover episode.  The ratings for "Draw Back Your Bow," were just ok, and reviews/fan response were mixed.   I get the idea of repeating success, but repeating failure is something else.  I think this would have been fine had it been kept to Barry/Felicity levels - focus on cute, cute, cute, not to mention someone who originally entered the show helping Team Arrow (like Barry) instead of taking over Oliver's company and asking Felicity to do evening/nightmare activities that pull her away from Team Arrow - right after two episodes where Oliver/Diggle pointed out that they needed Felicity.  

 

And now, of course, any Ray/Felicity interaction is happening after Oliver has told Felicity that he loves her, thought about Felicity prior to falling off a cliff, and dreamed about her - all elements to encourage the audience to cheer for an Oliver/Felicity romance, and regard Ray/Felicity as an obstacle to Oliver's happiness - not something designed to get the audience cheering. To have this as a setup for a spinoff feels a bit odd, and for me, is even more of a "What are they thinking?" than anything happening with Laurel, though I completely understand why so many people here disagree with me on that last bit :)

The ratings for Draw Back Your Bow were the lowest for any episode this season not centered around Laurel IIRC.

 

I really think Ray would have been more liked if they had kept his relationship with Felicity platonic.  Raylicity shippers could have dreamed and those who don't wouldn't get upset.

 

I'm still hoping they will tone it down enough that I don't have to FF through their scenes (Ray buys a clue that Felicity has feelings for someone else and offers to pretend to date her to keep Oliver away since Felicity is worried she'll give in)  because they're hoping to get an Atom spin-off and Ray sleeping with Felicity is not going to help one bit.

 

It's interesting that AK is still saying in interviews that this season Felicity will have a real choice between the two men. I guess they really think they're being good to Felicity writing it this way.

[apinknightmare]

I really think Ray would have been more liked if they had kept his relationship with Felicity platonic.  Raylicity shippers could have dreamed and those who don't wouldn't get upset.

 

I think so too. The only interaction I've really liked with them all season was their helicopter talk - and I think that's because it was the only one that didn't have weird romantic undertones or involve him pursuing her in professional/unprofessional ways. 

 

I think another thing that would've helped is if they hadn't made Ray's whole thing about wanting to suit up about his ex. It's noble and all, but he's not even a year out of losing someone he thought was the love of his life - and it's fine to move on, that's a good, healthy thing, but just before Christmas he was still feeling guilty for kissing Felicity and now he's kind of forgotten about Anna and is doing this thing to protect her? It's just too much. 

 

Oh, what could've been. I miss the summer before we knew of all of this and we were excited at the prospect of Felicity having someone woo her and love her and ugh...if I only knew then what I know now...

Edited February 21, 2015 by apinknightmare

[statsgirl]

I still don't mind the idea of Felicity having someone to really woo her but it's been so badly done all around.

 

We needed more Felicity/Oliver flirtiness before they broke up so that there was the pull for the audience to want to get back to that. Except for Oliver saying he loves her, it's still all in the audience's head.

 

Which is an additional problem because while we're supposed to feel for Oliver and his love of Felicity since he's the hero of the show, in actual fact, he's been treating her pretty badly all season.  He's told her he loves her three times, each time walking away from her, he won't talk to her about his decisions, and he keeps dangling maybes but always stopping before he follows through.  It's the worst 'love story' this show has done, and that's saying a lot.

 

But the thing with Ray, between "I'm doing it for Anna ... no, I'm doing it for Felicity" and Felicity trying to save him from becoming like Oliver, isn't much better.

[DrSpaceman10]

I miss this.

 

Edited February 21, 2015 by drspaceman10

[Sunshine]

Me too!

[SmallScreenDiva]

 

Much has been made about the chemistry of Oliver and Felicity, but Oliver, Felicity and Diggle have an amazing chemistry as well. I love the scenes where it's just the three of them in the lair, talking about the latest mission or problem, brainstorming, arguing, teasing each other, Diggle and Felicity getting Oliver to crack a smile. They did a lot of that during the back half of the first season and the first half of the second season. Then the lair got a bit fuller.

 

 

I thought we were going to go back to that during the first half of this season. If you noticed, Roy was either mute with his hands in his pockets or out whenever thre core trio were actually discussing what to do. It just feels like the lair itself and the convos lend themselves to just three characters. Maybe that's just me.

 

Photos from this Tumblr post (X)

Edited February 21, 2015 by SmallScreenDiva

[Guest]

"It started with the three of us, it's time we got back to that."

 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. We were all fooled. Fooled!

[Chaser]

There are so many things I think I could forgive about this season if I still had the original Team Arrow. The lack of this dynamic hurts.

[statsgirl]

I want to bang my head against my desk when I read MG saying that the original Team was good but not set in amber.

 

Creatively, I understand why the EPs wanted to go beyond the Team of Three because if you tread water, you lose creatively. (Except for NCIS, that show hasn't moved in 9 years and it's still on top.)  The problem is that nothing nothing that they brought on worked as well, not Ray and his suit, Laurel into the basement, Felicity fighting with Oliver.

 

If they want us to accept something new, at the same time they have to give us something we enjoy to keep us coming back for more. Ask any psychotherapist.  Or dog trainer.

[Chaser]

You can expand the Team but keep the relationship between the Three intact; It's not mutually exclusive. A better writer would know that.

[statsgirl]

I think you can have one or the other, expand the team but keep the relationships, or break up the relationships but don't expand the team.  I think there could be some good storytelling having Oliver at odds with Diggle and/or Felicity as there was when Diggle quit in s1, but not for the whole season, which is what this feels like.  Except for the cross-over episodes with The Flash, it feels like they've been at loggerheads since Oliver benched Diggle and dropped Felicity in The Calm.

 

Meanwhile, Oliver is going out with Laurel and Roy, and leaving Diggle back with Felicity.  Not nearly as enjoyable to watch.

 

(Although expanding the team is problematic too.  Roy fits in easily because he doesn't have much of a presence. When it was both Sara and Roy, Diggle and Felicity got pushed to the back.  Felicity had a whole 2 lines in The Promise, one of which was cringe-worhty, and Diggle didn't have much more.  Thea might be okay added in, although a Team of Five means less Oliver time with Diggle and Felicity.  I worry about Laurel being added though, both because of her comic destiny and because of who Laurel is, someone who will never consent to being in the second tier.)

[Genki]

I'm really at a loss as to what Laurel brings to the team, as a vigilante.

 

She is not skilful and more a liability in the field, she doesn't have the tech smarts, or the strategic experience. She doesn't have medical knowledge (this is a skill set they totally need, current situation stretches credibility quite a bit for me).

 

The only value Laurel can bring to the team is her legal expertise, she should be like a mob lawyer, setting up contingencies, escape plans etc, for if TA ever get identified, or on the wrong side of the law. As well as cook the criminals caught by them.

 

It's frustrating because everything has been broken and twisted around for Laurel but she doesn't bring any real value to Team Arrow or the show. 

And I fear they are doing it for Ray as well 

Having a metahuman come in for 3.19 apparently a Ray episode, likely justifies Ray's ATOM suit and addition to the team/show, so basically twisting everything (no powers rule) around again to make an unnecessary character happen.

[statsgirl]

Since they need medical expertise, maybe Diggle could take a med tech course over the summer hiatus. He can start with on-line courses now (there's a good one in medical anatomy from Duke) and spent the summer getting practical experience.

 

It's not as if they're using him in the field now that they have Laurel and Roy.  *rme*

 

sigh. Laurel really could help the team more as a lawyer than as a vigilante.  It's the curse of that name.

[kismet]

Since they need medical expertise, maybe Diggle could take a med tech course over the summer hiatus. He can start with on-line courses now (there's a good one in medical anatomy from Duke) and spent the summer getting practical experience.

 

It's not as if they're using him in the field now that they have Laurel and Roy.  *rme*

 

sigh. Laurel really could help the team more as a lawyer than as a vigilante.  It's the curse of that name.

Let's not forget the Diggle does have medical knowledge from his military days. He was the one that patched Roy's leg, and brought Oliver back to life after moira shot him. He might not have the CSI medical knowledge, but the only ones that had that was Barry & to a certain degree Sara. I mean maybe he needs to take some refresher courses.

 

Basically, if you want to expand the team, you need to expand the villains. I mean how much crime is there in SC, that you need a mini-van to get the team there? I mean if there was multi-layered crimes & villains I could understand. But it just seems redundant having so many masks to take down crime?

[TanyaKay]

I think we can all agree on one thing that the writers are not the best when it comes to writing romance. The most mature relationship of the show is between Thea and Roy and that is probably because they are peripheral characters and not the main romance of the show like Oliver & Felicity.

[KirkB]

I think we can all agree on one thing that the writers are not the best when it comes to writing romance. The most mature relationship of the show is between Thea and Roy and that is probably because they are peripheral characters and not the main romance of the show like Oliver & Felicity.

 

 

Exactly. Which is why I find all the Olicity fans so interesting. Because what makes those of you for whom it is the main focus think these writers are actually capable of doing your favorite characters and their relationship (if and when it happens) any justice?

[calliope1975]

Exactly. Which is why I find all the Olicity fans so interesting. Because what makes those of you for whom it is the main focus think these writers are actually capable of doing your favorite characters and their relationship (if and when it happens) any justice?

 

I used to think they could do Olicity right but not so much anymore. I think the Olicity I fell in love with was a pure accident between SA and EBR. I think they played some scenes with an undercurrent that maybe wasn't intended. I do think sometimes they get it right - witness the crossover, but the crap they're writing now gives me no faith in the future. And no faith if they actually do put them together. 

 

I would argue that it's not just Olicity they're fucking up, it's every part of the show. Season 2A was so much fun for me - the bits of Olicity, the stunts, the villains, the relationships, Team Arrow - everything worked. And if one of those things was still working, I might not be so bitter.

 

Plus, I think I transferred some of the amazing fanfic I've read over onto the show. My brain gets so caught up in the 'what could be' instead of the 'what is.' It's the smidgens they do get right (the crossover) that keeps that slim hope alive, to my own detriment.

[wonderwall]

Exactly. Which is why I find all the Olicity fans so interesting. Because what makes those of you for whom it is the main focus think these writers are actually capable of doing your favorite characters and their relationship (if and when it happens) any justice?

 

I guess I'm in the minority when I say that I think that oliver/felicity are one of the better handled aspects of this season. I hate the Raylicity thing, but in my opinion that has nothing to do with Oliver/Felicity because it's not a roadblock to olicity. Raylicity wouldn't be a question if Oliver/Felicity didn't roadblock themselves from being with one another. I don't think the writers have failed that relationship. Sure, I get annoyed by the melodrama (especially in the first half of the season), but with the second half, I came to appreciate that both Oliver/Felicity have to deal with their own issues separately before they ever get together. And Oliver has a lot of issues. 

 

What gives me faith is how the two are sometimes written. The way they were written in episodes 1, 5 (before Felicity rightfully dismissed him), 8 (for the Flash and Arrow episodes), 9, 10 gives me hope that they can be made into a successful couple even in the spotlight. 

 

I personally think that Oliver/Felicity's relationship is a mature one. They don't argue like teenagers and take potshots at one another, Oliver respects Felicity's boundaries, Felicity doesn't push Oliver into being in a relationship with her, they are acting like mature adults regardless of the circumstances they're in. Just because they facing quite a few issues (due to personal ideologies/beliefs/weaknesses) doesn't mean that their relationship lacks maturity. 

 

And I disagree with Roy/Thea being the most mature relationship. I think that Digg/Lyla are. 

Edited February 22, 2015 by wonderwall

[quarks]

The ratings for Draw Back Your Bow were the lowest for any episode this season not centered around Laurel IIRC.

 

 

"Draw Back Your Bow" had 2.64 total viewers, and got mixed responses from viewers/critics.

 

In contrast, most of the Sara- focused episodes in 3A did decently:

 

Broken Dolls: 2.89

Crucible: 2.37 (but this is the big outlier episode, since it aired against Game 7 of a very controversial World Series.)

League of Assassins: 2.80

 

2A did have higher rated episodes, but two of those episodes beat the season premiere at 2.74, and 2A ended with Arrow getting on a number of critical top ten lists, and other numbers (Hulu, iTunes, Amazon, Netflix) reportedly being solid enough to help greenlight the Flash spinoff.

 

On to other topics, I'll join Wonderwall in being fine with the way Oliver/Felicity have been written this season. I also don't think the writers are completely terrible at writing romance. I'd instead argue that their record on this front is mixed. There's been relationships I thought were fascinating (Walter/Moira), relationships I've liked (Roy/Thea, Oliver/McKenna), relationships I haven't seen although apparently they were on the show (Slade/Shado, though I liked their first fighting scenes), relationships I thought could have been really interesting but weren't explored enough (Oliver/Sara, Oliver/Helena, Nyssa/Sara), relationships I kinda said, "huh" to but felt largely indifferent about (Diggle/Carly, Tommy/Laurel), one relationship I outright hated (Thea/that DJ), one relationship that was fine while it was on the screen but annoyed me later (Oliver/Shado), one relationship I've found questionable for various reasons (Ray/Felicity), one relationship that just flopped right from the beginning (Oliver/Laurel), and relationships I've really liked (Diggle/Lyla, Oliver/Felicity, Tatsu/Maseo).

 

So while I certainly wouldn't argue that the writers are always good at writing romance, I don't think they're always terrible at it, either.

[Password]

IMO Oliver and Sara's romantic relationship shouldn't have been explored so soon. It was clear to me that both of them were unprepared for a relationship, and very unprepared for one together. Too much history, not enough emotional growth to allow them to breathe. I'd go as far as to say THEIR relationship would've been a far bigger Olicity threat because of the bond the show could've shown us formed over not just their time on the island, but afterward when they were getting better. Their romantic relationship seemed very contrived to me because I got no background to it. They just sort of happened, and I hoped the flashbacks would help me, but they didn't. I just felt like at the time in season 2b they were getting together when they both should've focused on themselves and not been distracted by sex, which is essentially what happened. Also at the time I thought they were toxic together because of their past, and because they hopped into bed after Laurel rejected Sara. It was too reminiscent of what happened on the Gambit. Later, maybe 2 seasons on would've made things far more interesting, but the writers jump the gun on everything and straight out said Sara-Oliver was a ship stall. It hurts my soul to even write this. It would've been an interesting dichotomy for me for Oliver to choose between his past and all the pain it entailed, and his present (potentially future) relationship that had pain but also healing. Sara was familiar to Oliver but Felicity is like a different kettle of fish. Then I feel like what SA said about Sara and Laurel being his past would've rung true because we'd be able to witness the difference between his past relationships with women, and his present with Felicity. The only thing I liked about Sariver was BC and GA fighting together. They were awesomesauce.

I think the writers haven't thrown the kitchen sink out for Olicity yet. I'm not mad at the development (or lack thereof) because they want drama. The Merlyn plot kills me more than the consequence of Olicity stalling. It's Raylicity that's got my back up tbh. Nothing good can come from that pairing and this "choice" Felicity will have to make is already giving me heartburn because I can't with Fony Stark.

Edited February 22, 2015 by Limbo

[jay741982]

Espically when Gross Raylicity is yet another roadblock to Olicity and MG makes it so even Diggle aint showing any emotional support for Felicity . I hate how he is forcing Ray down my throat

[Nagevs]

. I hate how he is forcing Ray down my throat

 

So reject it, throw it back up, take back control. MG is gonna do whatever the hell he wants to do. 

[kismet]

IMO Oliver and Sara's romantic relationship shouldn't have been explored so soon. It was clear to me that both of them were unprepared for a relationship, and very unprepared for one together. Too much history, not enough emotional growth to allow them to breathe. I'd go as far as to say THEIR relationship would've been a far bigger Olicity threat because of the bond the show could've shown us formed over not just their time on the island, but afterward when they were getting better. Their romantic relationship seemed very contrived to me because I got no background to it. They just sort of happened, and I hoped the flashbacks would help me, but they didn't. I just felt like at the time in season 2b they were getting together when they both should've focused on themselves and not been distracted by sex, which is essentially what happened. Also at the time I thought they were toxic together because of their past, and because they hopped into bed after Laurel rejected Sara. It was too reminiscent of what happened on the Gambit. Later, maybe 2 seasons on would've made things far more interesting, but the writers jump the gun on everything and straight out said Sara-Oliver was a ship stall. It hurts my soul to even write this. It would've been an interesting dichotomy for me for Oliver to choose between his past and all the pain it entailed, and his present (potentially future) relationship that had pain but also healing. Sara was familiar to Oliver but Felicity is like a different kettle of fish. Then I feel like what SA said about Sara and Laurel being his past would've rung true because we'd be able to witness the difference between his past relationships with women, and his present with Felicity. The only thing I liked about Sariver was BC and GA fighting together. They were awesomesauce.

I think the writers haven't thrown the kitchen sink out for Olicity yet. I'm not mad at the development (or lack thereof) because they want drama. The Merlyn plot kills me more than the consequence of Olicity stalling. It's Raylicity that's got my back up tbh. Nothing good can come from that pairing and this "choice" Felicity will have to make is already giving me heartburn because I can't with Fony Stark.

I don't think the Sara/Oliver relationship was ever supposed to be a romantic/couple relationship. I think it was a relationship of convenience & satisfying basic needs. A friends with benefit scenario. I think both of them cared about each other, but it was not in a romantic/couple sense. I think they were just together, it wasn't anything long-term. I think they were both feeling lonely and it was easier to dull the pain together than apart. I do think if they had intended to keep Sara on the show, the potential for them to be something more was there, but they both would have needed to change their perspective on the relationship. They were clearly on different wavelengths & had many difference of opinions on stuff. The whole get a place thing, proved that they were not on the same page. Although, the writers seemed to pull that out of nowhere, so perhaps they were not even on the same page.

 

I do not think the writers intended it a Olicity delay. There was no way Olicity was really gonna happen in S2 anymore than it did, and even that seemed a little fast. I think O&S was just something to explore. Oliver had said he was not ready for a relationship with someone he care about because of the life he leads, which I think he was very true & accurate about. And Felicity told him he deserved better, which I think was the first time he had probably thought or heard that in awhile. To him Sara was a better option. There was a familiarity & comfort there, but also no expectation. Clearly they had had non-committed relationship before, so it was probably easy to fall into. I also think that they both were deal with hurt & readjustment of family issues, so having some comfort & connection with someone was probably reassuring.

[Password]

I'd be totally fine with this explanation if I got half of it from the show. Problem is, Sara and Oliver were such a wtf "relationship" to me that I find it hard to understand they had any of these unspoken conversations. Nothing showed me that Oliver was looking for something after Felicity said he deserved better. It just happened, then they were, then they ended. No amount of fanwanking will make me understand that part of season 2.

I'd more accept that they wanted GA and BC to hook up tbh. Not to mention they had to make Oliver an insensitive jerk to make it work and Sara a horrible sister.

And the writers did say they were an Olicity stall. I think it was AK.

Edited February 22, 2015 by Limbo

[AyChihuahua]

 

So reject it, throw it back up, take back control. MG is gonna do whatever the hell he wants to do.

This is a message board about a tv show.  There is perhaps no place in the world more legit to complain about something happening on that tv show than this message board.  

 

Also, Ray is a well-intentioned misfire.  

[Nagevs]

This is a message board about a tv show.  There is perhaps no place in the world more legit to complain about something happening on that tv show than this message board.  

 

 

I know that, my comment was in regard to watching something you don't like that is really upsetting you, not posting on a board to complain about it.

[Guest]

It's interesting to read the different perspectives on Sara and Oliver's relationship last year. I've said before, I had no problems with them hooking up. I think they had a shared experience that connected them on a level that no one else ever would but it didn't translate to romance, IMO. Their night together in 213 was understandable because it came from a place where they both needed comfort and they sought that with each other. The actual relationship that came after is what took me by surprise because I just never really saw romantic vibes between them. A deep and unique friendship, yes. Romance, no. But I didn't hate it. It just kind of existed and I didn't really mind. I think it always had a shelf life and it was just a question of when they'd both realize that.

 

I'm having a lot of trouble accepting Ray/Felicity's upcoming romance, however, because whereas O/S kind of came out of nowhere, R/F have very specifically been orchestrated to happen this season. It's the most contrived storyline/romance I think I've ever seen. It's literally a paint by numbers romance. Everything that they've done to build to it has felt so unnatural that I just can't see beyond it.

 

While I understood the reasons O/S were together (and perhaps stayed together longer than they should have), I can't understand why Felicity would consider Ray when it's clear to me she loves Oliver. An attempt to move on I could come to grips with but Felicity being genuinely conflicted over who to choose is ridiculous after everything I've seen between her and Oliver over the last two years. Hence the reason I'm pretending it's not happening. Problem solved!

Edited February 22, 2015 by Guest

[statsgirl]

While I understood the reasons O/S were together (and perhaps stayed together longer than they should have), I can't understand why Felicity would consider Ray when it's clear to me she loves Oliver. An attempt to move on I could come to grips with but Felicity being genuinely conflicted over who to choose is ridiculous after everything I've seen between her and Oliver over the last two years.

I don't even understand why she would move on right away.  She's loved Oliver for more than a year and she's had quiet dreams of them being together.  Even if she's disillusioned now to realize that Oliver isn't the person she thought he was, the natural thing for her to do would be to retreat for a while and get herself together, as she presumably did for 5 years after Cooper's death, not  immediately head for Oliver-lite.

[Password]

MAYBE she doesn't love Oliver....

Oooh.

[BkWurm1]

While I understood the reasons O/S were together (and perhaps stayed together longer than they should have), I can't understand why Felicity would consider Ray when it's clear to me she loves Oliver. An attempt to move on I could come to grips with but Felicity being genuinely conflicted over who to choose is ridiculous after everything I've seen between her and Oliver over the last two years. Hence the reason I'm pretending it's not happening. Problem solved!

 

I know we've been told by AK that Felicity would have to make a choice between them, but so far she hasn't had any kind of a choice.  Oliver backed away to the point where the only choice she actually could make was to turn her back on "maybes" and she'd been trying to do that since The Calm and only found the real strength to do it with his deal with Malcolm.  If' she's at all interested in being in any kind of relationship, her only option is Ray since he's the only guy she feels a connection to that is emotionally available.   She loves Oliver but all the signs she's seeing say that's not going to happen so I can't blame her for looking elsewhere even if the only reason she even looking is to band aid the pain Oliver has left her with. 

 

She tried the regrouping thing and it seems like instead of giving her space to get her head together, she used it to avoid dating altogether or at least something about it has not attracted viable options (Her finally got a guy interested and he gets struck by lightning line)  I think she's done with waiting.  She wants to move forward and while she'd hoped and dreamed it could be Oliver, he's taken himself out of the running in more ways than one.  So yeah, it makes sense she'll attempt something with Ray.  I just don't think it will ultimately satisfy her. 

 

Right now I think she's going to get caught up in looking for a relationship but when she finds it with Ray, then she's going to realize it isn't the relationship she's wanting so much as the specific man in the relationship, but there's a lot of anger and hurt on her side and in her push to move forward and not wallow in the past, she's  IMO facing a sizable amount of self delusion that she can move on.    

Edited February 22, 2015 by BkWurm1

[Password]

But with RAY!

I'm sorry this is the only suitable answer.

[statsgirl]

Right now I think she's going to get caught up in looking for a relationship but when she finds it with Ray, then she's going to realize it isn't the relationship she's wanting so much as the specific man in the relationship, but there's a lot of anger and hurt on her side and in her push to move forward and not wallow in the past, she's  IMO facing a sizable amount of self delusion that she can move on.    

But the specific man is the guy that keeps shutting her out, as you pointed out.

 

It's only a real choice if it's between two men, not Ray or nothing.  Right now, it's Ray (rebound on both their parts) or waiting forever for Oliver to decide it's okay to be with her. That's not a choice.

[apinknightmare]

But the specific man is the guy that keeps shutting her out, as you pointed out.

It's only a real choice if it's between two men, not Ray or nothing. Right now, it's Ray (rebound on both their parts) or waiting forever for Oliver to decide it's okay to be with her. That's not a choice.

I'm sure Oliver will make himself available as a choice at some point after Felicity starts dating Ray. Edited February 22, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Guest]

I know we've been told by AK that Felicity would have to make a choice between them, but so far she hasn't had any kind of a choice.  Oliver backed away to the point where the only choice she actually could make was to turn her back on "maybes" and she'd been trying to do that since The Calm and only found the real strength to do it with his deal with Malcolm.  If' she's at all interested in being in any kind of relationship, her only option is Ray since he's the only guy she feels a connection to that is emotionally available.   She loves Oliver but all the signs she's seeing say that's not going to happen so I can't blame her for looking elsewhere even if the only reason she even looking is to band aid the pain Oliver has left her with. 

 

She tried the regrouping thing and it seems like instead of giving her space to get her head together, she used it to avoid dating altogether or at least something about it has not attracted viable options (Her finally got a guy interested and he gets struck by lightning line)  I think she's done with waiting.  She wants to move forward and while she'd hoped and dreamed it could be Oliver, he's taken himself out of the running in more ways than one.  So yeah, it makes sense she'll attempt something with Ray.  I just don't think it will ultimately satisfy her. 

 

Right now I think she's going to get caught up in looking for a relationship but when she finds it with Ray, then she's going to realize it isn't the relationship she's wanting so much as the specific man in the relationship, but there's a lot of anger and hurt on her side and in her push to move forward and not wallow in the past, she's  IMO facing a sizable amount of self delusion that she can move on.    

 

I don't blame Felicity for trying to move on at all. I just don't like or appreciate the idea that she's genuinely conflicted over who to choose because IMO there is no choice. They've written Ray to be an emotionally well-adjusted Oliver-lite and I don't see Felicity choosing him as much as I see her settling for him because what else is there? Ray doesn't feel like a choice. He feels like a rebound. I guess that's the point I was making.

 

I do hope it comes across that Ray ultimately won't be a satisfying relationship for her. I'd hate for it to be all oh so wonderful and perfect because otherwise what are they trying to achieve here? Ray might be perfect for Felicity on paper but I need to SEE on screen how he's not right for her in person.

[Hook75]

I don't even understand why she would move on right away.  She's loved Oliver for more than a year and she's had quiet dreams of them being together.  Even if she's disillusioned now to realize that Oliver isn't the person she thought he was, the natural thing for her to do would be to retreat for a while and get herself together, as she presumably did for 5 years after Cooper's death, not  immediately head for Oliver-lite.

 

 

I agree, it doesn't look good and to many, it belittle her feelings for Oliver IMO, especially when he is not moving on and hoping for that day he could be with her.

 

She loves Oliver but all the signs she's seeing say that's not going to happen 

 

 

She rejected him too...for MM and soon for Ray.

 

She wants to move forward and while she'd hoped and dreamed it could be Oliver, 

 

 

Did she ever said it to him before? Did she "fight" for him? Have she told him she loves him once? I, of course, blame the writing, but honestly, I have not seen much from her (and scenes on the Flash does not count). The only time she kinda spoke about her feelings for Oliver TO Oliver was right before SHE dumped him, brutally.

 

I want to see angst from BOTH sides and to see that BOTH sides are fighting to be together....not some lame excuses, and running to another man. 

[jay741982]

MAYBE she doesn't love Oliver....

Oooh.

I think Its what she told Ray it is that she don't know WHAT it is

[Danny Franks]

Did she ever said it to him before? Did she "fight" for him? Have she told him she loves him once? I, of course, blame the writing, but honestly, I have not seen much from her (and scenes on the Flash does not count). The only time she kinda spoke about her feelings for Oliver TO Oliver was right before SHE dumped him, brutally.

 

I want to see angst from BOTH sides and to see that BOTH sides are fighting to be together....not some lame excuses, and running to another man. 

 

All of this. From what I can tell, this is a decidedly one-sided love affair. Oliver has said it and shown it, Felicity has said nothing and when Oliver turned away from her, she just accepted it. Now she's going to date someone else because reasons. How romantic. This is what happens when you get inept adolescents writing a television show. The biggest fear I always had about Oliver/Felicity was that when they actually started writing it, they'd fuck it up something fierce. Seems to be sadly the case.

 

So Felicity will turn away from Oliver while he's going through all the woobie, angst-related melodrama? After bitching him out when he returned and apparently deciding he's beyond hope? Those aren't even the actions of a friend, let alone someone who loves you. This is not how I would ever expect Felicity Smoak to act, but I guess it's what the plot requires, so it's what she does.

[statsgirl]

I disagree that she rejected Oliver for MM.  When Oliver came back, she rushed into his arms. And then after a brief hug and more time spent talking to Diggle and Roy than to her, he announced that he was working with MM.  For Felicity, that said that the person who she thought was Oliver Queen was an illusion.

 

 

The only time she kinda spoke about her feelings for Oliver TO Oliver was right before SHE dumped him, brutally.

He was about to tell her yet again that he couldn't be with her for the same stupid reasons.  I see that as him dumping her because if he had wanted to be with her, he would have first greeted her as she deserved to be greeted, and then slowly and carefully explained his reasons.  There was no way Oliver was going to say "Felicity, now that I'm back I want to be with you."  She said the words but he dumped her first.

 

What Oliver appears to have for Felicity is the medieval courtly love, when you're supposed to be in love with your lord's lady but it's an entirely pure, chaste love. You carry her scarf into battle with you but  you never touch her.

 

It isn't so much a matter of Felicity dumping Oliver as it is that she never had him at all, except maybe during the 2.5 summer which if you don't read the comics, isn't canon.

 

 

Oliver has said it and shown it, Felicity has said nothing and when Oliver turned away from her, she just accepted it.

He's said it; he's never shown it.  He's never kissed her except to say good-bye, he's never held her, he's never done any of the things you expect for someone who says he's in love with you.

 

At this point, if she needed a date for her high school reunion, Roy or Cisco is a better option than Oliver.

 

It may be one-sided but what I see is that it's on Felicity's side, not Oliver's.

Edited February 22, 2015 by statsgirl

[apinknightmare]

So Felicity will turn away from Oliver while he's going through all the woobie, angst-related melodrama? After bitching him out when he returned and apparently deciding he's beyond hope? Those aren't even the actions of a friend, let alone someone who loves you. This is not how I would ever expect Felicity Smoak to act, but I guess it's what the plot requires, so it's what she does.

 

...she didn't? She's still working with him from what little of them we've seen of them together since. She never told him that she didn't want to be his friend or his vigilante-ing partner. She never said he was beyond hope. She merely told him that if he reduces himself to working with Malcolm Merlyn who has done terrible things to women Oliver loves (sara and thea) in order to protect Thea, who Oliver loves, that she doesn't want to be a woman that he loves. Felicity's always been pretty vocal to Oliver when he's doing something she doesn't agree with - how is this any different? She told him she thought he was making a dumbass decision, one that she believed compromised the principles she believed that he had. 

 

From what we've seen so far, it was a dumbass decision. His principles seem to be mostly intact though. So far. 

Edited February 22, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Guest]

Did she ever said it to him before? Did she "fight" for him? Have she told him she loves him once? I, of course, blame the writing, but honestly, I have not seen much from her (and scenes on the Flash does not count). The only time she kinda spoke about her feelings for Oliver TO Oliver was right before SHE dumped him, brutally.

 

I want to see angst from BOTH sides and to see that BOTH sides are fighting to be together....not some lame excuses, and running to another man. 

 

 

I don't see it that she dumped him because they weren't even together. You can only 'dump' someone if you're actually in a relationship with them and Felicity and Oliver haven't had a relationship at all. They barely even had a date. 

 

As much as I think the writing is doing Felicity a disservice by not giving her a proper voice, how can she fight for something with someone that doesn't want to fight either? Oliver loves Felicity and we know he wants to be with her but he doesn't think he can and no amount of Felicity telling him he's wrong is going to change that. Oliver needs to realize that he's going to lose Felicity for good before he eventually puts up a fight and then it will be Felicity's turn. Right now, there's no point because it'd be like talking to a brick wall. And this is not even considering Felicity's issues with abandonment which obviously influences how she handles things.

[Hook75]

He was about to tell her yet again that he couldn't be with her for the same stupid reasons. 

 

 

We don't know that for sure since she didn't really gave him a chance to talk.

 

He's said it; he's never shown it.  He's never kissed her except to say good-bye, he's never held her, he's never done any of the things you expect for someone who says he's in love with you.

 

 

The same can be said about Felicity.

 

It may be one-sided but what I see is that it's on Felicity's side, not Oliver's.

 

 

LOL, then we have to agree to disagree cuz I'm always on Team Oliver.

 

Oliver has said it and shown it, Felicity has said nothing and when Oliver turned away from her, she just accepted it.

 

 

Yep, What I wanted her to do is shut him up with a kiss (not a PG one lol), throw him on the bed she got him and have her way with him, proving to him that he is crazy talking and that she isn't going down w/o a fight.

 

And just a side note, Diggles ended up working with the man he hates the most, the man who killed his brother to save the woman he loves, more than once.

 

 

[apinknightmare]

We don't know that for sure since she didn't really gave him a chance to talk.

 

Felicity was expressing disappointment in Oliver's life choices - it was Oliver who turned it around and insinuated that she was upset because he didn't want to be with her. So, he indicated a relationship was off the table with that statement alone. 

 

 

 

And just a side note, Diggles ended up working with the man he hates the most, the man who killed his brother to save the woman he loves, more than once.

 

Deadshot murdered Andy as a hired hit. If Malcolm killed Sara as part of some League business on high from Ra's, you'd have a point. As such, Deadshot never drugged someone Diggle loved in order to kill someone Diggle loved, so the situations are a little different. Deadshot has earned Diggle's trust - Malcolm? He's done nothing but prove that he can't be trusted.