Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[AyChihuahua]

12 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

So, if Malcolm and DD hadn't kidnapped the kid, and Felicity married Oliver, would it be all right if he just kept his son secret from her forever? What if Baby Mama sued for alimony, what would happen then? Because at that point by law, Felicity would have to pay it, since Oliver had no income whatsoever last season. How is all of that not directly affecting Felicity?

Yeah, child support, including back child support that would probably hit somewhere in the millions of dollars, AND stepparents have nearly all the responsibilities of parents but none of the rights. For example, if I see a drowning rando kid, I have no legal duty to do shit. If I see a drowning kid who happens to be my stepchild, in basically every state I have a legal DUTY to do something to help him. That's the kind of thing a person really needs to know.

1 hour ago, rtalive said:

This is one of the things that made me stop shipping the couple. The other is that they took this awesome female character, that was so precious and so unique on her own and turned her into mere love interest. She was there to create conflict and divide the fandom. And she still divides the fandom, based on the stories they give her. Before she was like Diggle, a partner, a friend, there to be a hero on her own, like with the Slade thing. She was more interesting than Diggle, but Diggle got his stories who are solely for him and she became supporting character of drama and relationships. I agree that Oliver is really not a relationship material for more than one reason, but that is why his love drama should have been with people outside the team or with a character that does not inspire drama and has her development outside the relationship.

Literally every single character who has ever been in two or more episodes of this show "divides the fandom." Literally every single one, up to and including Oliver, who I loathe and often want to kick in the balls, but who plenty of people adore.

[ladylaw99]

No matter how much  I hate what they have done with Felicity and Oliver and hate even more what they have done with OTA and Delicity.  Do these people even remember it started with the 3 of them?  Look I get refreshing the show but come on, this is ridiculous.  They never interact anymore.  Diggle doesn't seem to remember Felicity even exists.  I am more upset about that then Oliver and Felicity.

[lexicon]

Also this wasn't just a lie once and it's over forever scenario.

Oliver not only lied about the existence of his son but EVERY time he left to go see him or called him or bought something to send to him etc. He intended to remain a part of his son's life while marrying Felicity and continuing to spin a web of lies to her so he could maintain a relationship with his son and BM for the REST OF THEIR LIVES. Felicity wasn't just facing the fact that he'd lied about his son's existence but that he fully intended to do so FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIVES unless BM ever relented and said he could tell her, even though various other people already found out INCLUDING MALCOLM MERLYN. Felicity was looking into a future where the man she was about to spend her life with, intended to have a family with her and also have a secret one off to the side that he would make up reasons to visit FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIVES. Accepting what Oliver did meant accepting that he'd intended to go into a marriage with the intention of keeping that part of his life separate from her FOREVER by continuing to ACTIVELY lie to her.

Then there's the reasoning behind the need for a lie which was basically because BM said so - to me that was straight up more offensive that anything else. When faced with a choice between lying to his fiancee, the woman who was his partner in crime/life and the woman who'd kept the existence of his son a secret from him, Oliver chose to honour the BM's wishes. Now the reasoning behind that was so stupid and could never be articulated fully other than to say "SHE WAS THE MOTHER OF HIS CHILD" so I just ignore it because lbr the whole point of this story was to break Olicity up. So they contorted the characters and their thought processes just to make that happen. If not, they would acknowledge that Oliver could've simply told Felicity while appearing to honour BM's terms and she would've never known so allowing him to maintain his relationship with both his son and Felicity. Stupid stupid hacks 

[Midnight Lullaby]

1 hour ago, rtalive said:

The thing is that people have different point of views based on their different personalities and experiences and whether we like it or not based on sex. A lot of women are on Felicity's side and most men are on Oliver's.

Me personally I am a woman, but I am on Oliver's side merely, because I have been on his position. Two people are there in the relationship together and share one path, but each one of them still remains independent individual with having things that are just theirs. IF one of them decides that they want to deal with things that concerns just them, it is their right. A secret is awful thing only if it directly affect the other one. It's like trying to top a really high steep pike in a mountain, you go there with a partner and you are both tied with a rope, so your life depends on them, but in the end every step you make further depends only on you, you make the decision where to put you leg next, if you slip you partner can hold you and pull you back or fall with you, or just cut the cord and let you fall. Oliver didn't ask Felicity about his son, he didn't share with her about this step, he was going to make and he slipped, what she did is to cut the rope.

This is one of the things that made me stop shipping the couple. The other is that they took this awesome female character, that was so precious and so unique on her own and turned her into mere love interest. She was there to create conflict and divide the fandom. And she still divides the fandom, based on the stories they give her. Before she was like Diggle, a partner, a friend, there to be a hero on her own, like with the Slade thing. She was more interesting than Diggle, but Diggle got his stories who are solely for him and she became supporting character of drama and relationships. I agree that Oliver is really not a relationship material for more than one reason, but that is why his love drama should have been with people outside the team or with a character that does not inspire drama and has her development outside the relationship.

In recent interview Amell said the couple broke because of lack of trust. Well if those two never became more than partners than this would have never been the case. They both trust each other with their lives but broke up because of lack of trust. Where is the common sense here that I have to root for that couple.

So if you found out after your wedding that your husband has a secret family he sees during the weekends in another city you wouldn't be bothered at all? And even if a person was willing to ignore her husband's second family they could still come for your money because you legally became a step parent. And no, saying I didn't know they existed isn't an excuse to not pay alimony.

This year they forgot about her relationship with Oliver. If you were watching for the first time you'd never guess they were engaged and still there are people hating on her. The more common reasons are that she dares to speak up and not worship the hero like I guess they think a woman should do. But that's always been her since season 1 and it isn't anyone's fault if sexism is alive and well in 2017.

[apinknightmare]

I do think there's room for discussion on how the secret kid situation was dealt with in the relationship, because I think someone believing that it's a deal-breaker vs. something O/F could work through without a breakup vs. any other variation of dealing with the problem are based on personal experiences and personalities and other individual type things that would be different from person to person.

The idea that the lying/secret keeping wouldn't or shouldn't be an issue at all is super confusing to me though.

[statsgirl]

1 hour ago, rtalive said:

The thing is that people have different point of views based on their different personalities and experiences and whether we like it or not based on sex. A lot of women are on Felicity's side and most men are on Oliver's.

I think the breakdown is between those people who believe that when you marry someone and plan to share the rest of your life with them, you shouldn't have any big, on-going secrets from them whether or not it has the potential to cost the other person big bucks in terms of back child support, and those who believe that even though  you're in a marriage, you're still an independent contractor and should have the freedom to do whatever you want to do.   I agree that it often is differentiated over gender lines and also maturity.  (To specify, many of those arguing that Felicity had no right to know anything about William because it was only Oliver's business were young men.  I remember guys like them from high school so I agree about the lack of experience in what it takes to keep a relationship. )

Edited February 24, 2017 by statsgirl

[AyChihuahua]

14 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I agree that it often is differentiated over gender lines and also maturity.  (To specify, many of those arguing that Felicity had no right to know anything about William because it was only Oliver's business were young men.  I remember guys like them from high school so I agree about the lack of experience in what it takes to keep a relationship. )

I would legit love to see their reactions to finding out post-wedding that their wives have secret kids for whom they get to pony up child support for up to 18 years, plus in several states, through college.

If Felicity had hidden a secret kid from Oliver they'd want her burned at the stake.

[dtissagirl]

I think the rationale of putting it on Felicity [that isn't just blatant sexism] is that because the show decided to break up O/F, then there's drama, so if Oliver and Felicity never happened, there would be no drama.

Except. They set up the kid story before O/F officially happened. And they had every intention of following through with it in later seasons, because we know Kreisberg told Anna Hopkins she'd be back down the road.

That kid would have created drama regardless of who Oliver were dating. If it had been Laurel, it would probably have been even worse because cheating would have been involved.. If O/F had never happened and Oliver had been single, they would have created drama WITH the Baby Mama. If Moira had been alive, the kid would've created drama between Oliver and his mother. That kid meant drama, period.

Edited February 24, 2017 by dtissagirl

[EmilyBettFan]

Yeah I think some people would change their tunes, if their fiancé or husband/wife left you to go visit a secret family and old girl you used to bone. Especially if say you were newly PARALYZED.

[theOAfc]

1 hour ago, AyChihuahua said:

If Felicity had hidden a secret kid from Oliver they'd want her burned at the stake.

#fact

[jay741982]

14 hours ago, Chaser said:

I find the gender divide interesting. I think it's more of an internet thing. I've known a handful of guys who watch Arrow and with the exception of one (who is full comic dudebro), all were on Felicity's side. 

Add me as another guy on Felicitys side 

[Mellowyellow]

I'm still here hoping for Olicity and Felicity (because who would actually watch this show for it's trash content, seriously trashy scripted Reality TV is better)

Now I am wondering if they will be giving us more Olicity ever again.

I was pretty happy with how they handled Dinah after all the GA/BC fears and was feeling positive again because we got a hug in the Russian ep but this episode was like BAM!

Oliver was pretty gross! I don't see how they can even turn this around and suddenly have him in love with Felicity again. I just felt so bad for the poor girl this ep.

Which ep did Oliver and Sara break up again? 

[Midnight Lullaby]

5 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

 

Which ep did Oliver and Sara break up again? 

220.

[Mellowyellow]

Just now, Midnight Lullaby said:

220.

Thank you!

[statsgirl]

I guess x20 is their big ship stall break-up episode since that's when Ray and Felicity broke up too.

From the Social Media thread:

13 hours ago, LeighAn said:

I loathed Ray and Raylicity but not Felicity. And I think it comes down to the depth of Olicity. The writers played up the fact that Felicity was rebounding from Oliver and they played up the longing between the two of them majorly. Where as they are playing Olicity tepid and ambiguous against the backdrop of Rayporter because they both want to keep the undercurrent of Olicity but also I'm assuming not piss off the no romance people.

I mean Felicity went in as full throttle with Ray and she was slightly worst in the sense we got lots of cuddling and kissy kissy with them where as Oliver and Susan have zilch chemistry, and for a lot of Raylicitys relationship Felicity was pissed at Oliver.

But at least we saw Oliver affected by it we saw the longing between them and we saw Emily and the writing play Felicity as wishing Ray was Oliver.

I feel like if they went full throttle with the melodrama/longing with Olicity maybe Oliver would come off slightly better. 

Again even in the last episode I still am 100% here for Stephen and Emily's chemistry so if the Olicity I get is good enough I can put this down as an arch of suck and try and forget about it. 

 

12 hours ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

For me it's that even when she was with Ray Felicity showed she cared and supported Oliver. Now we have Oliver asking Felicity to fix things for him like she is Curtis and now his ex fiancée. I don't see Oliver caring for Felicity, I haven't all season. That's why for me there's no comparison and this is worse than Ray and Felicity (even if in season 3 after episode 17 I was livid about what they did). I wouldn't begrudge Oliver having a new relationship, even if I wouldn't enjoy watching it, if that didn't mean suddenly not caring about people that have loved him for years.

Stephen and Emily have great chemistry and nothing will ever change that but I can't root for this Oliver to be with Felicity. 

I didn't enjoy Raylicity but I appreciated that someone cared about Felicity after Oliver kept pushing her away, telling her he loved her but refused to be with her.  And then of course Oliver and Felicity did get together, did run away together, loved each other and almost got married.

This is the big difference between then and now with Shady Snoozan.  When Felicity was with Ray, her only relationship with Oliver had been working together.  But now Oliver has lived with Felicity and loved her, told her "You are my always. And I just want the chance to be yours."

And now not only does Oliver not ask if she's okay after what happened to her last year and Havenrock and after Oliver killed Billy, but he wants her to fix his relationship with his new shady squeeze.  The difference is like night and day for me.

Edited March 3, 2017 by statsgirl

[way2interested]

21 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

And now not only does Oliver not ask if she's okay after what happened to her last year and Havenrock and after Oliver killed Billy, but he wants her to fix his relationship with his new shady squeeze.  The difference is like night and day for me.

Honestly, I don't see it that way. I get how it looks that way, and I'm not saying it's wrong, but I just see it a bit differently. To me, there really hasn't been a time for Oliver to ask if she's ok after last year/Havenrock other than off-screensville in 4.5. She hasn't been sharing any of these feelings with Oliver and the Havenrock stuff was only resurfaced after Rory showed up, only for Felicity to shrug off Oliver asking her if she was alright and only really dealing with it when Curtis kept pressing. After killing Billy, he couldn't immediately comfort her/ask her how she was doing for obvious inappropriate reasons. Then, in 510, Felicity was acting off and Oliver confronted her on it, knowing it was a reaction to Billy's death (aka he knew she wasn't ok). By the end of the episode, Oliver vowed to get justice for him, and Felicity went back to normal, so in a way the matter can be perceived as done (hence why he was confused as to why Felicity was acting off again in 512).

Then, in 515, he asks for advice and Felicity basically tells him that Susan's his gf so that he has to handle it. Then, he asks her to at least fix something that she did have a hand in. Keeping out of mind any of it relating to Susan, Felicity did have a hand in ruining an "innocent" person's career in an extra malicious way (which even Felicity admitted she had no idea Thea was going that way), and Oliver was asking her to do the physical part of fixing what happened to this person while he tried to get Thea to do the emotional part of fixing it by apologizing to the person. The awkward part of all of this comes from the fact that Susan is shady and by audience perspective deserved what she got, especially when she admits twice that she was going to out him.  I didn't see it as him asking her to fix his relationship as much as him opening up rather inappropriately, Felicity shutting him down by saying she has no part of that, and then Oliver reasoning that she could at least fix something that she did have a part in and that probably only she could fix. Again, it's all problematic because the center of this whole thing is Susan, but thinking of it as only Oliver's gf makes me see that it really wasn't as Susan-focused as I thought it was going to be (same for 514).

The ultimate problems that I see are 1) Oliver isn't showing enough concern for Felicity and 2) Felicity isn't sharing with Oliver. Problem here is both fuel a more negative perception of Oliver, despite the fact that Felicity has continuously shown an aversion to sharing with others unless someone really presses her. There is something to say that Oliver could just press her more like Curtis or Rory or Diggle, but at this point for what? She hasn't acted out of the ordinary since 512 (and he doesn't know about Helix/Pandora), which he also thinks was settled since Diggle approached him and agreed with what Oliver said. Him killing Billy has also been settled since he vowed to take down Prometheus with her, even if others are the ones who are acting like he was never Felicity's bf.

My biggest problem with all of this is just that it's far less interesting to see than anything between them before. It makes sense to me, but it's just so meh other than a handful of moments this season when they actually allow the moments of growth/tension/history to come up.

[ComicFan777]

To be honest, I just cannot see how Oliver could possibly ask Felicity to help him fix his relationship with Susan after he submarined their engagement with the whole BMD thing and killed her boyfriend just a few weeks ago. 

I'd say that if he feels comfortable enough to ask her for relationship advice, he is comfortable enough to approach her and see what's been going on with her just as Diggle did.

Edited March 3, 2017 by ComicFan777

[way2interested]

4 minutes ago, ComicFan777 said:

To be honest, I just cannot see how Oliver could possibly ask Felicity to help him fix his relationship with Susan after he submarined their engagement with the whole BMD thing and killed her boyfriend just a few weeks ago. 

I'd say that if he feels comfortable enough to ask her for relationship advice, he is comfortable enough to approach her and see what's been going on with her just as Diggle did.

I didn't see him as asking her to fix his relationship with Susan, more of advice and then asking her to fix what Thea and she subsequently she did that went too far. And it looked like Diggle was just asking because he found out about Pandora, knew she did "something" in 512, and reasoned that Pandora could lead Felicity down a bad path. Oliver doesn't know about Pandora at all and for all intents and purposes could think that whatever was up with Felicity in 512 was settled., so idk what he would approach her about?

[Thundercatmary]

For me I think it's a bit easier because I tend to direct my ire at the writers.  It just seems so glaringly plot driven that sometimes I can't even hate Oliver etc cause I know it's these garbage writers twisting these characters every which way just so they can hit certain plot points. 

[ComicFan777]

After what Rory said in 5.12, Oliver knew that there was something going on.  Oliver followed up with Diggle at the end of the episode, but not Felicity.  Just because Diggle was settled after Oliver's speech, I don't think that he can really assume that Felicity is ok just because Diggle is.  Diggle and Felicity had separate issues they are dealing with.  A solution to one might not be effective for the other.  It wouldn't have hurt for Oliver to follow up with Felicity as well since she is his friend.

Edited March 3, 2017 by ComicFan777

[way2interested]

I think he could assume if she doesn't do anything out of the ordinary anymore after his speech to both of them in 512 that she might be ok, even though she really isn't. Ultimately though it is just that the writers didn't want Oliver to follow up because they want Oliver to be in the dark about Felicity using in Pandora for now, but I just don't see it as Oliver being completely inconsiderate to Felicity or anything. He could/arguably should be better, but I don't think this is a binary thing.

[thegirlsleuth]

To me, Oliver asking Felicity to help with Susan was really insensitive.  With Felicity, he didn't frame it as "you need to make this right since you had a hand in it" he framed it as "my girlfriend won't return my calls and I'm too busy dealing with the impeachment hearing".   I could have almost seen his point of the first argument, however he didn't make it in show. 

[statsgirl]

2 hours ago, way2interested said:

Then, in 510, Felicity was acting off and Oliver confronted her on it, knowing it was a reaction to Billy's death (aka he knew she wasn't ok). By the end of the episode, Oliver vowed to get justice for him, and Felicity went back to normal, so in a way the matter can be perceived as done (hence why he was confused as to why Felicity was acting off again in 512).

I can understand why he thought things were okay after their talk at the end of 5x10.  But then when Rory told him that things weren't okay in 5x12, he should talked to Felicity about it, not just given a speech to her and Diggle and then assumed everything was okay.  No probs, Felicity is fine too.

In 5x14 he was practically bullying Felicity when he thought she had got poor Susan fired and in 5x15, Felicity was visibly uncomfortable as she told him he was the one who needed to fix things with Susan.  But Oliver didn't notice, he was all "you do it, I don't have time".

The impression I get is that since Oliver started seeing Susan, and especially since he started sleeping with her, he doesn't have time for Felicity. She's a piece of equipment he uses and as long as she functions at capacity, that's all he's interested in.

Edited March 3, 2017 by statsgirl

[Mellowyellow]

I'm not actually going to type this as an argument more as a head canon fix:

I'm going to assume he is an asshole beccause he's subconsciously trying to goad Felicity into reacting and putting her foot downabout Susan.

I've gotten past my rage. I will just make up shit to fix the shitty writing so I can keep on shipping pretty people because EBR in that pink dress is a sight to worship!

[way2interested]

19 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

In 5x14 he was practically bullying Felicity when he thought she had got poor Susan fired and in 5x15, Felicity was visibly uncomfortable as she told him he was the one who needed to fix things with Susan.  But Oliver didn't notice, he was all "you do it, I don't have time".

The impression I get is that since Oliver started seeing Susan, and especially since he started sleeping with her, he doesn't have time for Felicity. She's a piece of equipment he uses and as long as she functions at capacity, that's all he's interested in.

I get it. I just don't like the all or nothing idea of "Oliver hasn't talked to Felicity in these specific times when he could have/should have"="Well he doesn't care about her at all" or the idea that Oliver was trying to force Felicity to fix his relationship with Susan (generally because I saw the rest of the scene as Oliver asking her to fix Susan's problems not his relationship, still awkward, but not as insensitive as it could have been) I guess at the end of it it just comes down to a difference in perception. I didn't see it that way in 514-515, and I don't necessarily have that impression either.

[theOAfc]

8 hours ago, ComicFan777 said:

To be honest, I just cannot see how Oliver could possibly ask Felicity to help him fix his relationship with Susan after he submarined their engagement with the whole BMD thing and killed her boyfriend just a few weeks ago. 

This is arrow for you. Pushing twisted ideas and normalizing unhealthy attitudes since s3. It just gets to a point that i wonder if the writers ever think of these characters as more than their plot devices . They dont seem to have personalities anymore.

[Midnight Lullaby]

5 hours ago, way2interested said:

I get it. I just don't like the all or nothing idea of "Oliver hasn't talked to Felicity in these specific times when he could have/should have"="Well he doesn't care about her at all" or the idea that Oliver was trying to force Felicity to fix his relationship with Susan (generally because I saw the rest of the scene as Oliver asking her to fix Susan's problems not his relationship, still awkward, but not as insensitive as it could have been) I guess at the end of it it just comes down to a difference in perception. I didn't see it that way in 514-515, and I don't necessarily have that impression either.

Yes, I think it comes down to different interpretations and what we are all more sensitive about..for example I know what caring for someone is for me because of what my loved ones and life experience taught me and I judge the way I see Oliver acting as him not caring because for my experience that's not it. Even when he told her to fix things with Rory (in 504 I think) I was a bit taken aback because I wondered in that episode why it didn't seem to occur to him that it must have been a very hard time for Felicity. About Susan the thing is he could have asked Curtis to do what Felicity did since I imagine he is capable or at least ask. I watch him and it's like the idea that Felicity might be suffering doesn't occur to him despite all that happened to her. I guess it's because plot but he comes off to me as not caring about Felicity or being so self centered he can't be bothered with her. In the scene with Felicity in particular there was Felicity that, even if clearly uncomfortable, agreed to fix things for him, stopped him to reassure him that the hearing was going to be fine and that he is a hero and Oliver telling her Susan isn't returning his calls and he tried to fix the situation but he is busy. I don't know at least show him realize that she is uncomfortable and that he is sorry to put her in that position but there was nothing. They write her as caring and supportive so the difference in attitude really hits me.

[LeighAn]

I think in the live posting thread about the Raylicity/SnakeOliver parrallels butIve been doing a slow rewatch of Arrow and Im in season 3 now and yeah still see it. (By the way season 3 kicks seasons 5 ass imo)

Posting this mainly because gifs are fun. Its not directed at or response to anybody except my own boredom.

Friendly reminder in 3 x 15 this happened (hope your not eating)

And it came after this:

And it was followed by this:

And this:

And the whole time I was like:

But then this happened: 

This part is FAKE NEWS:

Stupid computer saving instead of finishing. My story is not finished yet. To be continued:

Part 2:

More FAKE NEWS:

The Russians Hacked Arrow during this part:

This is better:

If we must put up with this:

I wish the arrow writers would give us more of this with Olicity:

o

But hopefully we will get the Olicity version of this:

Or other wise the writers get this:

Until then:

The end...finally haha stupid tablet

Edited March 3, 2017 by LeighAn

[Mellowyellow]

Haha @LeighAn that actually made me miss Raylicity so much! Going to go and look up their scenes. They were adorable together! And they had great chemistry not like that shady mole.

I will always stand by shipping my top two Flarrowverse characters together *waves Palmer Island flag hysterically because it's been a rough shipping week*

[LeighAn]

15 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Haha @LeighAn that actually made me miss Raylicity so much! Going to go and look up their scenes. They were adorable together! And they had great chemistry not like that shady mole.

I will always stand by shipping my top two Flarrowverse characters together *waves Palmer Island flag hysterically because it's been a rough shipping week*

@Mellowyellow

This is Raylicity:

:p

(Ill stop with the gifs now haha)

Edited March 3, 2017 by LeighAn

[statsgirl]

3 hours ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

Yes, I think it comes down to different interpretations and what we are all more sensitive about..for example I know what caring for someone is for me because of what my loved ones and life experience taught me and I judge the way I see Oliver acting as him not caring because for my experience that's not it. Even when he told her to fix things with Rory (in 504 I think) I was a bit taken aback because I wondered in that episode why it didn't seem to occur to him that it must have been a very hard time for Felicity. About Susan the thing is he could have asked Curtis to do what Felicity did since I imagine he is capable or at least ask. I watch him and it's like the idea that Felicity might be suffering doesn't occur to him despite all that happened to her. I guess it's because plot but he comes off to me as not caring about Felicity or being so self centered he can't be bothered with her. In the scene with Felicity in particular there was Felicity that, even if clearly uncomfortable, agreed to fix things for him, stopped him to reassure him that the hearing was going to be fine and that he is a hero and Oliver telling her Susan isn't returning his calls and he tried to fix the situation but he is busy. I don't know at least show him realize that she is uncomfortable and that he is sorry to put her in that position but there was nothing. They write her as caring and supportive so the difference in attitude really hits me.

This is consistent with Oliver from previous seasons.  In s2 after Felicity told him about her fear of being abandoned if he tells her the truth and he tells her he'll never do that.  And the very next episode he does exactly that by not only ignoring her but starting a very obvious PDA thing with Sara.  In s3 he tells her he loves her and then shuts her out after Sara dies, then again tells her he loves her before he goes off to fight with Ra's and then pushes her away for months after he gets back. He tops it by having a passionate night with her and then making her think he's killing her and all their friends.

Oliver is very, very good at compartmentalizing Felicity.

The problem is, that doesn't work for me after what happened in season 4, after their summer together and his proposal and his wedding vows.  I can believe that Oliver can compartmentalize Felicity as long as being with Felicity is a mythical relationship he years for but feels he cannot have. But once he's had it, compartmentalizing her and being oblivious of the effect of his actions on her (as he was in s2) argues a shallowness or narcissism in Oliver rather than a belief that she's okay with things.

[leopardprint]

I agree Oliver is very disconnected from Felicity and there is an argument that's an intentional story choice by the writers. However, I think it's more an overcorrection by the writers to diminish the importance of Felicity and "emotions" overall. She basically only exists in the lair and even her BF story was not about her at all. I actually think all the female characters (even Dinah) have suffered from this since they only seem to exist to assist Oliver/GA except the reporter lady and even she is only important because Oliver says she is and now I am heading over the bitterness cliff. 

[Mellowyellow]

@LeighAn you heartless woman! How can you not love this face?

[Trini]

Ugh... that gif reminds me that they should have had Ray and Oliver interacting a lot sooner.

[statsgirl]

That's when Ray started to spark for me, when he started interacting with Oliver.

[Starfish35]

3 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

That's when Ray started to spark for me, when he started interacting with Oliver.

Agreed.  For whatever reason Raylicity did nothing for me, but when Ray and Oliver started interacting, I sat up and was like "oh this is fun. More please."

[Mellowyellow]

I'm going through season 3 again. He took an arrow for her, knows all the Dr Who stuff. Damnit Felicity you'd be happy right now if you were still with him!

[BkWurm1]

10 hours ago, statsgirl said:

This is consistent with Oliver from previous seasons.  In s2 after Felicity told him about her fear of being abandoned if he tells her the truth and he tells her he'll never do that.  And the very next episode he does exactly that by not only ignoring her but starting a very obvious PDA thing with Sara.  In s3 he tells her he loves her and then shuts her out after Sara dies, then again tells her he loves her before he goes off to fight with Ra's and then pushes her away for months after he gets back. He tops it by having a passionate night with her and then making her think he's killing her and all their friends.

Oliver is very, very good at compartmentalizing Felicity.

The problem is, that doesn't work for me after what happened in season 4, after their summer together and his proposal and his wedding vows.  I can believe that Oliver can compartmentalize Felicity as long as being with Felicity is a mythical relationship he years for but feels he cannot have. But once he's had it, compartmentalizing her and being oblivious of the effect of his actions on her (as he was in s2) argues a shallowness or narcissism in Oliver rather than a belief that she's okay with things.

I think Oliver's depth of ignorance is a lot greater than one might expect when it comes to how his actions currently affect Felicity.  I believe Oliver too easily can believe that Felicity wouldn't care about him dating someone else, not because he's shallow or only thinking of himself, but because he still thinks little enough of himself that I think he does leap to thinking Felicity just doesn't think of him like that anymore.  He is treating her like season two and in this case I mean during the Sara lunge where he was being oblivious but I don't believe deliberately hurtful.  

Basically I agree he's being an idiot and awful, but I don't think it's because he doesn't care about her, just doesn't understand the degree to which what he's asking of her is a problem.    

[ComicFan777]

That scene really felt like Oliver was looking through Felicity or not looking at her at all.  Because if Oliver really did see Felicity, he would see that she was clearly uncomfortable with what he was asking her to do and hear that she didn't want to do it. 

[insomniadreams88]

It really seems to come down to Oliver not thinking how his relationship with Susan affects others and his relationships with them. It also seems like this relationship has made him forget that he even has/had these other relationships. Instead of seeing his ex-fiancée, he's looking at Felicity like she's someone who can do what he needs done because he thinks she should help him. She even pointed out he shouldn't be going to her for this and it didn't even register with him. 

Then you could even look at it in terms of trust - which was an issue for O/F last year, as SA has pointed out. Everyone is telling Oliver not to trust Susan (even Susan herself since she told him she wanted to use what she found but couldn't) but he still is. 

Also, I miss S3 Oliver who knew 2 things. 

[statsgirl]

3 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Basically I agree he's being an idiot and awful, but I don't think it's because he doesn't care about her, just doesn't understand the degree to which what he's asking of her is a problem.    

So if I understand correctly, you're saying he's lacking empathy?

He may think so little of himself that he believes that Felicity doesn't think of him that way any more but for sweet heaven's sake, when the woman is telling you that you need to fix things with your girlfriend yourself, listen to her instead of guilting her into fixing a problem she didn't know she was causing.

I think the only excuse for Oliver in this situation is that he's desperate to make a relationship work, any relationship even this dubious one with a woman who clearly doesn't care about him for himself or support him except when she's getting something out of it.  But that still doesn't excuse not noticing that Felicity is uncomfortable or in trouble.  I can see that they are setting up for Olicity again (e.g. Felicity says he'll beat this thing because he's a hero while Susan says he deserves the impeachment) but I don't know if I'll be able to support it when they do.

Edited March 4, 2017 by statsgirl

[kismet]

I give you all props for even bothering to analyze OQ/FS and how it relates to Susan or even Raylicity. Personally, its all PLOT for PLOT. I don't see any relationships or character interactions. We could put cardboard cutouts of them for the actors to talk to and we would achieve the same goal. Maybe that's how they can give people more time off. Does somebody have the SPN boys info.... maybe they can lend us their Cardboard SA.

[Guest]

For me, it's difficult to compare Raylicity to Oliver/Susan because the difference is s4 hadn't happened. So Oliver/Susan is a lot harder to stomach after Oliver called Felicity "his always" and they were once very happy together. My brain just refuses to compute him being so gone for another woman after s4, especially one where we haven't been shown a reason why he likes Susan so much. Why is he drawn to her? Why does he trust her so much when she's given him no reason to? IDGI. This isn't just about show don't tell. They haven't even told us. The EP's have but the writing hasn't.

Don't get me wrong, Raylicity was painful to watch too (so much so that I stopped for a while and then later binge-watched the episodes) and there were definitely moments of doubt Olicity would work out in the end, but we still went into that season knowing that Felicity was it for Oliver. There was a lingering emotional weight behind things. Now it looks like Olicity never even happened. I'm not sure how I'm supposed to believe O/F still love each other and will get back together when they barely even remember they were a thing and Oliver is having all these weird genuine feelings for someone else. 

Personally, I would feel differently if there had been signs that Oliver is still very much in love with Felicity and this is just his desperate attempt to move on but I feel like we have to head canon that rather than seeing it on screen. And that's not good enough, especially not in s5.

Edited March 4, 2017 by Guest

[Midnight Lullaby]

6 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

 

Personally, I would feel differently if there had been signs that Oliver is still very much in love with Felicity and this is just his desperate attempt to move on but I feel like we have to head canon that rather than seeing it on screen. And that's not good enough, especially not in s5.

This.

I don't know if they refuse to show to the audience what he is feeling because they somehow think feelings scare viewers away or it's because they want to surprise us but it doesn't work for me at all.

We can say, based on what we saw, that Oliver is repressing his feelings for Felicity just like we can say he never really loved her. Both could work with the way they are writing Oliver at the moment.

[BkWurm1]

1 minute ago, Angel12d said:

It's difficult to compare Raylicity to Oliver/Susan because the difference is s4 hadn't happened. So Oliver/Susan is a lot harder to stomach after Oliver called Felicity "his always" and they were once very happy together. My brain just refuses to compute him being so gone for another woman after s4, especially one where we haven't been shown a reason why he likes Susan so much. Why is he drawn to her? Why does he trust her so much when she's given him no reason to? IDGI. This isn't just about show don't tell. They haven't even told us. The EP's have but the writing hasn't.

 

The only reason we even are talking about him being "gone" on Susan is because of how upset he has been over her life falling apart and with it, his relationship with her.  Since we've barely seen him above moderately depressed when hanging around her, I'm feeling pretty safe in saying it isn't Susan that he's so protective of but the idea of the relationship. Toss in Prometheus's claim that his association is what ruins lives of friends, teammates and romantic partners, and Susan is just the symbol.  I do believe he thinks she's a good person but I think his definition of that is more along the lines of she's a civilian, so even though she's a shady civilian, he still counts her as "good".  

[ComicFan777]

It's like the writers gave Oliver a checklist of the things he's done wrong and are trying to show the audience that he's changed with some random person to prove their point.
He listened to Thea and lost Felicity, so now he's not listening to Thea.
He didn't trust Felicity, so now he's fully trusting Susan.
He didn't fight for Felicity, so he's fighting for Susan.
Now the lying though, that's a tough one and he's still working on that one...
He didn't include Felicity in the important things, so now he's including Felicity in his current relationship by asking her to actively help out (Ha, Ha...No).  As idiotic as all of this sounds, Oliver has been written as an idiot and maybe somewhere in his moronic brain, he's thinking that if he proves to himself that he's changed with some random person, he's going to be able to prove to Felicity that he can change for her, too.

Edited March 4, 2017 by ComicFan777

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

The only reason we even are talking about him being "gone" on Susan is because of how upset he has been over her life falling apart and with it, his relationship with her.  Since we've barely seen him above moderately depressed when hanging around her, I'm feeling pretty safe in saying it isn't Susan that he's so protective of but the idea of the relationship. Toss in Prometheus's claim that his association is what ruins lives of friends, teammates and romantic partners, and Susan is just the symbol.  I do believe he thinks she's a good person but I think his definition of that is more along the lines of she's a civilian, so even though she's a shady civilian, he still counts her as "good".  

I mean, that's probably true. But I think it needs to be more obvious. Because there are actually fans out there (not just Olicity fans) who now think Oliver is in love with Susan and he never really loved Felicity. IMO that means they messed up. O/F can be apart and try to move on with others but when it reaches the point where people doubt his love for Felicity, that's a huge storytelling problem, IMO.

And also, nothing has been shown that illustrates why Oliver would think Susan's a good person. She was investigating him, writing a story on him. She was horrible to his sister. She refused his calls, even after he'd been hurt. She told him he deserved the impeachment hearing. She only came around once she'd gotten her job back. IMO she's a selfish shady asshole and Oliver just looks like a complete moron for not seeing it.

Edited March 4, 2017 by Guest

[kismet]

A huge difference for me with Raylicity was that the sole purpose of that storyline and arc was to build up Ray Palmer for his big spin-off. Hours of plot, dialogue and moments were devoted to making Ray a thing. So while, I may have had different emotional responses to how or why they felt the need to give us Ray by way of Raylicity. It actually served as character development. And even though I cringed at the relationship for various reasons, it did show us a different side of FS. And it did allow FS to have a relationship outside of OQ & TA, especially when he was shutting her out.

I don't see that with Susan. They are not building up her character development. They are not setting up a new spin off. I now nothing about her besides she is Shady and has poor professional work ethics. They aren't even showing us OQ in a new light. We've seen these relationship moves from him with his previous onscreen lovers & exs. The only thing we've got is years of quality OQ growth & character development thrown down the drain for plot. So nothing is coming out or going into this relationship. We are paying an actress good money to literally be one step above an extra.

She is a symbol of what Promethus is saying about OQ putting those he loves in danger. But we've seen this plot before, with people the audience actually cared about (Tommy, Moira, Shado, Thea, Felicity, Laurel & Dig). So if you're gonna make someone a symbol, at least do a better job of making us care about her. They are setting her up to be fridged for the greater good. Susan must feel like the Other Turkey on Turkey Pardon Day, so close to mattering and reprieve- but alas it's just another tragic tabletop platter for you.

Edited March 4, 2017 by kismet

[BkWurm1]

1 hour ago, Angel12d said:

I mean, that's probably true. But I think it needs to be more obvious. Because there are actually fans out there (not just Olicity fans) who now think Oliver is in love with Susan and he never really loved Felicity. IMO that means they messed up. O/F can be apart and try to move on with others but when it reaches the point where people doubt his love for Felicity, that's a huge storytelling problem, IMO.

And also, nothing has been shown that illustrates why Oliver would think Susan's a good person. She was investigating him, writing a story on him. She was horrible to his sister. She refused his calls, even after he'd been hurt. She told him he deserved the impeachment hearing. She only came around once she'd gotten her job back. IMO she's a selfish shady asshole and Oliver just looks like a complete moron for not seeing it.

Not saying they didn't mess up the writing when it comes to Susan's characterization or that Oliver isn't coming off as super stupid and myopic, but his over the top behavior now that's happening for contrived reasons doesn't negate his love for Felicity.  For the most part he's currently treating Felicity as a teammate, not his Always, but we've seen his compartmentalizing before.  It doesn't mean he stops caring or never loved, but that isn't the kind of relationship they have now.  And yeah it sucks and it goes too far, but it doesn't make a liar out of him in the past.  

I absolutely agree that the writing between Oliver and Felicity has been messed up this season.  Not just Oliver and Felicity, but between most of the characters.  No one really seems to care about anyone unless it's for plot purposes.  All other residual emotion is treated like it doesn't exist.  It's why the team barely feels like a team.  They all are just co workers whereas in the past, they were a family.    But it doesn't retroactively rewrite history and the show's history has shown and told me again and again that Oliver Queen loves Felicity Smoak like no other.  

He's just not letting those feelings guide his behavior right now for whatever reason.  Something is getting in the way.  He's freaked out and focused on Prometheus's accusations.  IMO there has been nothing on screen to make me believe that he has a new, bigger love for Susan.  We've seen OQ in love.  This is not how he acts.  He is NOT a happy man.  

Edited March 4, 2017 by BkWurm1

[kismet]

And I'm back to rooting for the character disconnects to be Flashpoint related so that I can blame Barry again and TPTB stupid choices for making FP impact all the shows.