Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[AyChihuahua]

It is so incredibly sad to me that apparently a non-negligible number of people truly think that bc two things happened at around the same time, one must have caused the other.

[nksarmi]

The idea that Felicity has emasculated Oliver comes from a gross misogynist place. It's what drives this [dumbass stupid] rationalization that Oliver is a lesser fighter now because he's also having romantic feelings at the same time.

 

But more importantly -- there's no indication whatsoever that the showrunners/writers believe Felicity lessens Oliver in any way. On the contrary, the entire romance storyarc they've done with O/F is built upon Felicity making Oliver better.

 

I don't disagree with you.  I just think to the viewer who doesn't think much about the show - you have Oliver and Felicity as a full-on couple in the same season where Oliver needs Thea's help to fight Anarchy and people just falsely connect those dots.  It takes far more observant watching to conclude that Oliver has been lessoned to make Laurel look better OR that this show just doesn't handle ensemble fight scenes well.

It is so incredibly sad to me that apparently a non-negligible number of people truly think that bc two things happened at around the same time, one must have caused the other.

 

Oh my word - just with the limited amount of statistics I studied in grad school, I can attest that large numbers of people do exactly that.

[dtissagirl]

I don't disagree with you.  I just think to the viewer who doesn't think much about the show - you have Oliver and Felicity as a full-on couple in the same season where Oliver needs Thea's help to fight Anarchy and people just falsely connect those dots. 

 

Yeah, well, the show still isn't in anyway making the case that having sex on the regular with Felicity is giving Oliver the yips. There's not even ambiguity going on that might lead someone to draw that conclusion. So I don't think it's fair to put this on the show, if randos are misinterpreting stuff from a misguided standpoint, that is grounded on a culture of every day sexism.

[nksarmi]

Yeah, well, the show still isn't in anyway making the case that having sex on the regular with Felicity is giving Oliver the yips. There's not even ambiguity going on that might lead someone to draw that conclusion. So I don't think it's fair to put this on the show, if randos are misinterpreting stuff from a misguided standpoint, that is grounded on a culture of every day sexism.

 

I wasn't really blaming the show EXCEPT to say that I think if they put to bed the relationship angst - even people who are saying "olicity" is killing the show probably won't say that anymore.  Well, I guess some will.  But it seems to me that people don't really care for it when Oliver and Felicity are fighting.  They express that distaste in different ways and place blame on different things, but I don't really see any fandom comments that seem to say "you know, this show just rocks so much when its exploring the issues and tension between Oliver and Felicity, when they are fighting and going at each other - it's just so much fun!"

 

So while I know writers today seem to think that couples need to go through angst and these writers in particular don't seem to want to write Oliver and Felicity as just a happy couple - I'm not really sure WHO in their audience they think this appeals to.  Like I said, my SO pretty much tuned out after the cross-over episode.  Admittedly, he was only half-heartedly paying attention before that.  But his reaction to the grave went from "They can't kill Felicity - it would kill the show," to "They should just go ahead and kill Felicity so Oliver can go back to fighting crime again."

 

I'm not saying he doesn't like them as a couple - but he definitely doesn't like the way they are being written.  I suspect a lot of the "dudes" who are saying "olicity is killing the show" wouldn't mind "olicity" at all if the writers would drop the angst and just write Oliver and Felicity as a couple who fights crime together.  I could be wrong - I don't follow the anti-olicity crowd very much.  It's just my suspicion that relationship angst isn't good for this show.

[dtissagirl]

@quarks has written extensively about the ratings trend for O/F in the ratings thread -- which is really the only kind of measurement we have of how audiences respond. It's a *soft* trend that when O/F fight, the ratings go down, when they make up, the ratings pick up. "Soft" because there are episodes that don't track with the trend.

 

But yeah. That kinda happens. It still has very little to do with individual reactions of audience members, or with online negative reaction in social media.

 

I'm actually curious about the next few episodes, because Oliver is now single, and if he still has the yips, who are the dudebros gonna blame.

[wonderwall]

I'm actually curious about the next few episodes, because Oliver is now single, and if he still has the yips, who are the dudebros gonna blame.

 

Obviously Felicity because mean ol' mary sue lady is being mean to him :(

[Guest]

It is a worrying trend that some think Oliver being in love and committed to one woman makes him weaker. Yikes.

 

Personally, I don't enjoy O/F when they're at odds so I can somewhat understand why some don't want relationship drama. I don't want it either, especially when it's dumb and contrived like the baby mama break-up crap. I can deal with ups and downs (406 was a perfect example of that) but I'd much rather they keep O/F together and have them happy and subtle in the background and maybe have an episode or two of relationship focus when needs must. 

 

But let's face it, if you don't like Olicity, you're gonna think it's taking over the show regardless of whether they're on/off or angst free. Sometimes when you dislike something, its very existence annoys you. It is what it is.

Edited March 19, 2016 by Guest

[dtissagirl]

What, a whole month after the break up and he's still not a ruthless killing machine playboying it up on the side? For shame, Oliver.

[lemotomato]

I don't like manufactured angst either. But I don't understand the logic for blaming it for mediocre stunts and de-powering Oliver. Unless Bamford and the stunt team are so brokenhearted by the drama they lost the will to do their jobs. 

 

There has been romantic drama all throughout the course of the show. In season 1, it was with Laurel, Helena, and McKenna. Season 2 was Sara and Laurel. In season 3 Oliver pined after Felicity the whole time. No downgrade of Oliver's abilities. Why? Because he was fighting either by himself, or with at most 2 other people at a time. Not with 3 other full-time team members. That's the only difference between season 1-3 and season 4. 

 

The lack of logic drives me nuts.

Edited March 19, 2016 by lemotomato

[Guest]

I don't like manufactured angst either. But I don't understand the logic for blaming it for mediocre stunts and de-powering Oliver. Unless Bamford and the stunt team are so brokenhearted by the drama they lost the will to do their jobs. 

 

There is no logic in that argument. At all.

 

The real reasons for mediocre stunts/de-powering Oliver are:

a) Stunt team possibly being stretched across 2 shows (not sure if this is accurate but it's a possibility). 

b) Trying to fit stunts for 4 masks into the same amount of time once dedicated to just Oliver, Oliver/Roy or Oliver/Diggle. So Oliver misses out.

c) Budget. Bigger stunts cost more money. 

 

But suuuuuuuure, Olicity is to blame for everything. Let's go with that. LOL.

Edited March 19, 2016 by Guest

[lemotomato]

I will feel so vindicated if the stunts get better

after they lose Laurel.

[Guest]

I figured out another reason: Oliver's new GA suit. Sorry but I really don't think he can move in that thing properly so his action movements are limited to jumping off something and a few punches.

[lemotomato]

I figured out another reason: Oliver's new GA suit. Sorry but I really don't think he can move in that thing properly so his action movements are limited to jumping off something and a few punches.

But but but sleeveless suit = comics GA!! Isn't that supposed to always be 1000% better?

 

Something else I find bewildering: for the first 3 seasons there were endless complaints about the (Green) Arrow being too dark and miserable and how he was ripoff of Batman. Season 1 there was an outcry about how he was basically a serial killer. This season he's finally more emotionally balanced and happy, less totalitarian and brooding. All of a sudden it's all "Kill Felicity!" and "Give us season 1 killer Oliver!". I don't get it.

[AES]

It is a worrying trend that some think Oliver being in love and committed to one woman makes him weaker. Yikes.

 

Personally, I don't enjoy O/F when they're at odds so I can somewhat understand why some don't want relationship drama. I don't want it either, especially when it's dumb and contrived like the baby mama break-up crap. I can deal with ups and downs (406 was a perfect example of that) but I'd much rather they keep O/F together and have them happy and subtle in the background and maybe have an episode or two of relationship focus when needs must. 

 

But let's face it, if you don't like Olicity, you're gonna think it's taking over the show regardless of whether they're on/off or angst free. Sometimes when you dislike something, its very existence annoys you. It is what it is.

Well said! 

[kismet]

I don't like manufactured angst either. But I don't understand the logic for blaming it for mediocre stunts and de-powering Oliver. Unless Bamford and the stunt team are so brokenhearted by the drama they lost the will to do their jobs.

Thanks for the laughs :) Now I just see Bamford and team in the corner somewhere drowning their sorrows in Ben & Jerry's with some strong drinks.... No wonder they can't create better stunts, they can probably barely even lift the spoon some nights ~ Forget about landing punches or kicks :)

[lemotomato]

Thanks for the laughs :) Now I just see Bamford and team in the corner somewhere drowning their sorrows in Ben & Jerry's with some strong drinks.... No wonder they can't create better stunts, they can probably barely even lift the spoon some nights ~ Forget about landing punches or kicks :)

Mint chip ice cream and red wine while watching clips from Olicity Queen's youtube channel of happier times... oh wait, that's me. :P

[wonderwall]

Mint chip ice cream and red wine while watching clips from Olicity Queen's youtube channel of happier times... oh wait, that's me. :P

Mint chip is gross for me :p I'd much rather prefer Cookies n' Creme . mmm

[catrox14]

Would you define Oliver and Felicity's relationship abusive? I ask because I've been reading it being defined that quite often lately, and I think it would be an interesting discussion. I'll let you guess who the abuser is.

 

Late to the party on this one, but WUT? LOLOL nope nope nope. Neither is an abuser in this relationship.  Wow.

[lemotomato]

Mint chip is gross for me :p I'd much rather prefer Cookies n' Creme . mmm

I love Cookies n' Creme, but in milkshake form. Mint chip is my go-to therapy ice cream flavor. 

[lemotomato]

Don't most of the major superheroes in the comics have significant others who aren't physical fighters? Also, Felicity has saved Oliver multiple times over and has not just been a damsel in distress.

It's not really about the couple both being physical fighters. Most of the "iconic" comic couples are heroes with non-combatants-- Superman and Lois Lane, Barry Allen and Iris West. The only difference is that Oliver and Felicity are not comic canon. That's the crux of the entire argument about why they shouldn't be together.

Edited March 20, 2016 by lemotomato

[statsgirl]

I wonder if they hate Superman/Wonder Woman too?  Superman's true mate has always been Lois Lane.

[BkWurm1]

Just spit balling but I get the impression that Wonder Woman would get a pass from many because she's hot and has superpowers, thus deemed worthy. 

 

I can't help see Superman and Wonder Woman as the JL equivalent of Sara and Oliver.  Probably fine for a while but too alike long term. 

[tv echo]

Tony Stark and Pepper Potts are not comic canon (which I never knew until after I watched the Iron Man movies and someone told me), but no one seems to mind their romantic pairing.  Like Felicity, Pepper was another version of a comics character.  Like Oliver, Tony was a womanizing playboy who's now in a monogamous relationship.

[nksarmi]

I wonder if they hate Superman/Wonder Woman too?  Superman's true mate has always been Lois Lane.

 

Actually I've read that the "power couple" is not well loved. But the reinventing of Wonder Woman in general (her story has become very male-centered with Zeus as her father and Ares as her mentor) has not been particularly well received.

[BkWurm1]

Tony Stark and Pepper Potts are not comic canon (which I never knew until after I watched the Iron Man movies and someone told me), but no one seems to mind their romantic pairing.  Like Felicity, Pepper was another version of a comics character.  Like Oliver, Tony was a womanizing playboy who's now in a monogamous relationship.

The pairing just works really well in live action stuff. They makes sense together. Same for Oliver and Felicity.

[Starfish35]

Wait, Tony and Pepper are not comics canon? Really? I knew she ended with someone else for a while (Happy I think), but are they really not together at all in the comics?

[BkWurm1]

I hit Wikipedia and they were in a relationship more recently until Stark got his memory wiped. They apparently were able to restore it since he had backed up his memories on something but it was an older copy so he didn't remember even being in a romantic relationship with her. Ugh. On the upside, they killed Happy off so it's not like she's getting back together with him. (Poor Happy)

I think I like the movies better.

[tarotx]

They have a history together somewhat like Olicity s1 and s2.  Tony doesn't have a romantic comic pairing. Piper has a love interest/husband but Tony and piper have a connection. 

 

Wait, Tony and Pepper are not comics canon? Really? I knew she ended with someone else for a while (Happy I think), but are they really not together at all in the comics?

I actually need to go back and read some recent comics because I had no idea Tony and Pepper actually got together and that her husband died. And what you say is why amnesia stories bite :p

I hit Wikipedia and they were in a relationship more recently until Stark got his memory wiped. They apparently were able to restore it since he had backed up his memories on something but it was an older copy so he didn't remember even being in a romantic relationship with her. Ugh. On the upside, they killed Happy off so it's not like she's getting back together with him. (Poor Happy)

I think I like the movies better.

[wonderwall]

Did any of you ever like Merlance? Just wondering..

[dtissagirl]

That sounds like a Merlot gone sour.

[Guest]

Merlance? LOL it took me a moment to figure out who you meant.

I liked how Tommy/Colin bought out a softer side to Laurel/KC. They had chemistry together. But I don't know if I shipped it or anything. And I didn't like how Laurel couldn't really make up her mind, especially when Tommy went all in and wanted to prove himself to her.

[Chasity]

Did any of you ever like Merlance? Just wondering..

 

I never liked them. I thought Laurel dating Oliver's best friend was almost as icky as Oliver sleeping with her sister. I'm really not a fan of friends sharing love interests. Also, I wanted Tommy and Thea to hook up. 

[wonderwall]

I never liked them. I thought Laurel dating Oliver's best friend was almost as icky as Oliver sleeping with her sister. I'm really not a fan of friends sharing love interests. Also, I wanted Tommy and Thea to hook up. 

You poor soul. You got burned terribly

[Morrigan2575]

I loved Tommy, in S1 Tommy and Felicity were my favorite characters. I never likedd Laurel, I didn't really hate her until S2 after I fell in love with Sara and resented everyone who told me (repeatedly) that Sara had to die for Laurel to become BC etc etc etc

Anyway i loved Tommy, didn't like Laurel and hated that love triangle. In other words i thought Tommy deserved better and wanted him as far away from Laurel as possible.

[Starfish35]

I liked how Tommy/Colin bought out a softer side to Laurel/KC. They had chemistry together. But I don't know if I shipped it or anything. And I didn't like how Laurel couldn't really make up her mind, especially when Tommy went all in and wanted to prove himself to her.

Yeah I think this is about how I felt about it too.

I never likedd Laurel, I didn't really hate her until S2 after I fell in love with Sara and resented everyone who told me (repeatedly) that Sara had to die for Laurel to become BC etc etc etc

So absolutely agreed on that one.

Edited March 23, 2016 by Starfish35

[tangerine95]

I never liked them though I guess I thought better that than Laurel and Oliver. But I thought Tommy deserved better and didn't like some of how Laurel treated him and how he always felt like he was her second choice.Which was kinda proven he was since she hooked up with Oliver the same day she told Tommy there was nothing betwen her and Oliver and she wanted to be with him.Though he was probably the only person KC had some chemistry with but I remember being so annoyed that Tommy was stuck having scenes with Laurel so much because I really liked him but hated any Laurel scene tbh.

[kismet]

Merlance? LOL it took me a moment to figure out who you meant.

I liked how Tommy/Colin bought out a softer side to Laurel/KC. They had chemistry together. But I don't know if I shipped it or anything. And I didn't like how Laurel couldn't really make up her mind, especially when Tommy went all in and wanted to prove himself to her.

I agree with your analysis and correlates with how I felt about Merlance.

 

In s1 while it was going on I did enjoy their scenes because there was chemistry (which was a welcome addition to LL/KC scenes). I think in my head I thought that they were a couple that made sense and hoped that they would end the triangle, let OQ find a better match for s2 to move the story forward.

 

But then s2 happened and LL completely forgot TM. Frankly, the only one that seemed to deeply grieve his loss was OQ. That definitely removed a lot of shine off whatever small fondness I might have had for the pairing.

 

Tommy was one of my favorite characters and he definitely deserved better than LL, once I had time to think about the relationship.

[nksarmi]

I liked Laurel and Tommy.  I thought KC had real chemistry with Colin, but I hated the love triangle.  In my head, Tommy was THE ONE for Laurel so I hated that KC didn't see it like because it probably ruined any chance her character had in season two of making me like her again.  I mean if Laurel went through the drinking because she felt guilty and was mourning Tommy - if she was angry that Oliver had moved on and was finding happiness with her sister while she was in pain over Tommy - then I could have forgiven all of her bad behavior because it would have been motivated by understandable grief and pain.  But instead they made it all about Oliver and it was gross.

 

Also, Laurel's transformation into BC would have been so much better if she had said that when she lost Tommy, she drank so now that she lost Sara (again), she wants to fight - to find a way to make the anger constructive.  That too would have been so much better than "becoming Sara" or whatever weird crap they had her say last season.

Edited March 23, 2016 by nksarmi

[wonderwall]

I actually liked them too in season 1A... But the love triangle made me think that Tommy deserved more than what Laurel was giving him. IMO what Laurel gave to Tommy wasn't enough because Tommy always felt as though he was the 2nd choice. A doubt that Laurel didn't really help assuage. And I get it, Laurel was uncertain and didn't trust men very easily at that point, especially Oliver's BFF. In the end, I didn't really appreciate her stringing Tommy along while she obviously had feelings for someone else (of course she had feelings which she denied for a long while, otherwise she wouldn't have slept with Oliver). 

 

Then Oliver/Laurel sleeping together just ruined Merlance for me and made me went from disliking Laurel to intensely disliking her AND Oliver. That moment just tainted Merlance, and now whenever I look back at them I don't even see the good in them anymore, I just see how royally that relationship got screwed over because of the whole love triangle.

 

Shame because Merlance was one of the few things that made me like Laurel a little more in the first half of the season before everything went to hell. 

 

Now I'm finding myself low-key crack shipping Tommy and Iris :p With everything we know about both characters, they could've been an extremely interesting and lovable pair.

Edited March 23, 2016 by wonderwall

[kismet]

It's funny you mention that because I have seen an uptick in Tommy/Iris pairings in fan fics. And I must admit it is not that bad of a pairing.

[EmeraldArcher]

I didn't like Tommy and Laurel together because she treated him horribly almost the entire time they were together, even before she and Olliver hooked up. I hated how when he was upset that she'd lied to him about why she stood him up for interviewing chefs for Verdant (sounded fun to me!) because she was working with the Hood, she ignored him to complain about how hurt/mad she was that her dad lied to her. Laurel has consistently been rude, angry, selfish, and self-absorbed--I couldn't ship her with anybody.

[Genki]

The problem for me was in S1 there was always someone with better chemistry than KC and whoever she was paired with, both with Oliver and Tommy. 

 

I too was one of those poor suckers who shipped Thea/Tommy, because Willa and Colin had so much more chemistry IMO than Collin & KC.

[tarotx]

That sounds so ick to me :p I already knew Thea was MM's daughter when I started watching (though I didn't know much else) because JB posted pictures calling WH his TV daughter.

 

But no worry because there seems to be people who shipped Oliver and Thea and it was already known they were brother and sister....

 

The problem for me was in S1 there was always someone with better chemistry than KC and whoever she was paired with, both with Oliver and Tommy. 

 

I too was one of those poor suckers who shipped Thea/Tommy, because Willa and Colin had so much more chemistry IMO than Collin & KC.

[kismet]

Thea and Tommy would have worked for a couple for me if they had not made TQ high-school age. Knowing the age difference between them was what kept me from wanting them together. But I definitely saw the chemistry, and thought it could have been a relationship a few seasons later once Thea was out of school and a few years into adulthood. Age difference is not always a problem, if everyone is an adult. But I do take a step back if someone in their late 20s is dating a 17/18yr old in high school; especially when they have had a bro/sis relationship while OQ was dead and missing.

[AyChihuahua]

I've never been interested in Laurel with ANYONE. KC's chemistry with Colin was not good, it was just not utterly terribad, so it looked good only in comparison to her awful anti-chem with SA. But I've disliked LL pretty seriously since the pilot, so I don't want her with anyone I like, and I don't care enough about her happiness to have any interest in her being with anyone, period, even someone I dislike/don't care about (Blood, shiny boxer guy).

[looptab]

Thea/Tommy forever!

[NumberCruncher]

*shrugs* I'll be the odd man out. I really liked Tommy and Laurel. I thought they had good chemistry and were interesting together. It seemed like he was really trying to be a better man for her and he softened the hardness she had after Oliver's betrayal those years ago. Tommy was supportive of her charitable endeavors and she encouraged him to find direction in his life. The triangle, on the other hand, was too stupid for words. I could never make sense why she still harbored feelings for Oliver when Tommy seemed to be 100 times the better boyfriend than Oliver ever was to her.

[tv echo]

FYI, here's an interview with KC from 2013 (right before 1x22 aired) in which she talks about Laurel's feelings for Tommy and Oliver...

 

‘Arrow’: Katie Cassidy Previews Final Two Episodes Of Season 1, Love Triangle With Oliver And Tommy
Laura Prudom   May 8, 2013
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/08/arrow-katie-cassidy-season-1-love-triangle_n_3235886.html

[BkWurm1]

FYI, here's an interview with KC from 2013 (right before 1x22 aired) in which she talks about Laurel's feelings for Tommy and Oliver...

 

‘Arrow’: Katie Cassidy Previews Final Two Episodes Of Season 1, Love Triangle With Oliver And Tommy

Laura Prudom   May 8, 2013

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/08/arrow-katie-cassidy-season-1-love-triangle_n_3235886.html

Probably the most coherent interview I've ever read from her. 

[kismet]

I don't mean to stir the pot... and I haven't been able to catch up on all the "Broken Hearts" posts because I have been too busy at work. But I do think for the reconciliation between OQ & FS to work both sides are going to need to give a little and grow in certain ways.

 

The break-up was fully OQ's fault and FS had every right to want to take a break from the relationship. However, it is within OQ's basic MO & personality to withhold critical information from loved ones for various valid & invalid reasons. It is a pattern of behavior he had prior to and returning from the island. It is also a behavior he learned from his parents and was then encouraged in the 5 years he spent on various islands. Therefore, it will always be an option for him, especially if he is stressed. He can grow and choose not to do it, but it's always going to be there. Anyone who chooses to love him and be in a relationship with him is going to have to accept the possibility that it may happen.

 

That is why I believe for the reconciliation the bulk of the work will need to be done by OQ to learn more about himself and the break-up. To accept certain things about himself and find healthier ways of trusting/sharing. He's going to need to learn how to break old behavioral patterns. He is also going to need to find some way to demonstrate to FS that he trusts her and is willing to open up to her as a first resort and not a last resort. His promises are not going to be enough. When he promised to never lie to her again, I literally yelled at the screen from my couch and "well there's your first lie". I have heard it used in person during a few fights & break-ups, and frankly it was an unintentional lie but still a lie. Someone who emotionally compartmentalizes and has a loose relationship with the truth or at least the whole truth can never promise to never lie again, its just not possible. What they need to do is promise that they will try to not lie and try to do better. And then they need to actually show that lying or withholding parts of the truth is no longer their default position.

 

At the end of the day, it wasn't just the lie that broke them up. It was the fact that OQ did not include FS in rather big emotional discussions and decisions. He has to learn how to be a better emotional partner. But like other people have mentioned, he is emotionally damaged. He was emotionally immature before the island and then was severely compromised in his 5 years away. He has made significant progress. But at the end of the day, he is never going to be emotionally whole or mature after a few months of happiness and healthy relationships. And this is where I think FS is going to have to give a little to make the reconciliation work. She has to come to terms with the fact that OQ is not perfect and is prone to make emotionally questionable decisions. He is and will hopefully get better and fully mature emotionally. However, that day is not today and most likely not tomorrow. So she needs to look into herself and ask herself does she love him enough to be his partner and help him through this journey as a friend, as a lover/partner or as nothing. It's really up to her and how much she is willing to give and perhaps bend her ideals of what and who OQ should be at this time.

 

In the end its a matter of time. It's going to take time for OQ to emotionally grow and earn back FS's trust. It's going time for the relationship to get back on track, even as work colleagues. Which is why I agree with Dig when he said to give her time, I don't think he was taking OQ's side ~ I think he was just speaking to the reality or the situation. OQ has a lot of work and introspection to do. The bulk of the burden will be on him to find new ways of communication and to become a better relationship partner. But life is short and unpredictable even for non-vigilantes, FS has to ask herself is it worth it to be apart from OQ and not with him while she waits for time and growth. They live dangerous lives, if one were to die or get seriously injured would the other regret not being with the person they loved because of this issue. Which is why I think the death of someone close to them is going to be the stimulus that brings them back together because they are going to realize that life is too short to not be together.

 

I do appreciate that they had the break-up and think it was necessary because it was a good wake-up call that there were elements in their relationship that needed work. And without the break-up, I don't think either would have taken the time to fix or at least begin to work on some of those problems. In the end, I think it will make them a stronger couple and better people. But it's still heartbreaking all the same, and I really wish the writers had come up with a better written story than BMD.