Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[kismet]

I just cannot blame anyone for sleeping with Oliver Queen (not Ollie, bc yuck, plus I am convinced he sucked in the sack).

Heck, I can't even blame anybody for wanting to do it. I know everyone wonders about his snowflake status, and I must admit I do give it serious consideration sometimes. But then my answer is usually, well its Oliver Queen - can you blame them? All I've got to say, its a good thing OQ only seems to have eyes for FS, because if I was FS I would be worried about the others hitting on my man. I don't think he would stray, but it probably does get exhausting at times to have everyone fawn over him.

 

Ollie Queen, I'm not sure if I would have passed him up either. It would have been a going in eyes-wide open thing. You know what you're getting. None of this Lance sisters' thinking I'm gonna change him thoughts. That boy was pure fun, but bad news. No wonder the baby mama took the check & left town, that was a smart decision. Sad for Ollie, but the right decision until he gets his act together.

[BkWurm1]

S1 and S2 are on Netflix streaming. I always have something playing in the background when I'm home, and often it's Arrow (NEVER S3 BECAUSE I DO NOT HATE MYSELF).

I have done some rewatches of season three, mostly to check on facts but often now that I know all the bad stuff, it's easier to watch again.  I think the constant surprise at the suck made the suck even worse at the time. 

[NoWayOut]

It was almost like the writers were banking on the idea that people would be more forgiving re: the cheating, sister swapping, Tommy betrayal, and plethora of other messes for the sake of comics. It doesn't seem like they were that far off though, because from what I've personally seen from the comic canon crowd, Oliver and Laurel's history doesn't seem to deter them from clamoring for a reunion. I can't come up with any other explanation as to why the writers would think giving Oliver and Laurel this kind of history would go over well with the audience. The eventual return of Oliver's kid will be just another reminder of how awful that relationship was.

[Coop33]

As someone who usually enjoys romantic story lines on TV, one of the first things about Arrow that disappointed me was that I just couldn't get into O/L.  There was no chemistry and I found their background to be completely repulsive. Even if KC and SA had had better chemistry and the show had continued to move forward with them as the main pairing, I think the writers would have had a hell of time making up for the history they set up between the two.

 

If they were banking on the Because Comics of it all getting them out of it, I think that makes them look even worse. They had to know that the majority of the TV audience would have no knowledge of the comics history for a B-list superhero. As much as the writers like to pretend, Green Arrow is no Batman in terms of cultural knowledge.

[kismet]

It was almost like the writers were banking on the idea that people would be more forgiving re: the cheating, sister swapping, Tommy betrayal, and plethora of other messes for the sake of comics. It doesn't seem like they were that far off though, because from what I've personally seen from the comic canon crowd, Oliver and Laurel's history doesn't seem to deter them from clamoring for a reunion. I can't come up with any other explanation as to why the writers would think giving Oliver and Laurel this kind of history would go over well with the audience. The eventual return of Oliver's kid will be just another reminder of how awful that relationship was.

The backstory is just so horrible. I think if they had made Sara her best friend instead of her sister, that might have been more manageable. The whole sister card really put OQ in an awful light. And then to show LL being so ok with his cheating when they did show her in fb. It was just not thinking about the big picture.

 

I think the comic crowd is more willing to forgive and crave a reunion because they have experienced the good side of the relationship, not just the bad. I can think of many couples through the TV years that I have rooted to get back together that perhaps do not have the best history. But that is because I have seen how great the couple can be. That is not the case with O/L. On top of bad chemistry between KC & SA, they never even wrote the couple a happy scene. Even the photograph scene which could have been cute (I'm thinking of the Ed Sheeran song) was tainted because OQ was texting SL to hide from her sister. How are we supposed to root for the couple when even the writers barely root for them? If you want us to root for a couple, you have to put the good stuff in to. OQ staring at a pic & then sleeping with Shado does not count. LL dropping a plate & then wishing that the ex-lover stayed dead does not promote these 2 are in love. I've seen forced unhappy marriages that have more happy moments together than O/L.

 

I will admit that I did root for the couple to get back together in s1. But that was more of trained response, than a guttural response. I see an angsty couple that has star-crossed tendencies and I just want to make them work it out. However, the way they both treated Tommy and the fact that he had more chemistry with 3 other woman did not help the situation. I almost wanted them to get back together in the finale and then break-up in the fall after a rocky summer together that I would not have to watch. That would have fulfilled my angst couple cravings. However, that plan completely vanished when the writers decided to kill Tommy. At that point, I was like there is no way this relationship is nothing but toxic. Just look at the destruction it causes both intentionally & unintentionally. Choosing to bring her sister back to SC was the final WTF moment when I decided this O/L was done.

 

At that point, they threw out whatever minuscule potential of will they/won't they at that point. You can overlook a bad history that took place when you were all young & crazy youths, but that's not the case anymore. In the present day, they are all adults, making adult decisions. And I can not respect any grown woman that would return to an ex-lover who has had multiple relationships with her sister, nevermind all the other drama that resulted from his choices. Sorry, I think LL is a stronger woman than that. And I think OQ deserves better than that. Clearly if he continues to choose her sister & other women over her, she will never be enough for him. For both of their happiness, it is better that they walk away.

Edited September 13, 2015 by kismet

[Happy Harpy]

As someone who usually enjoys romantic story lines on TV, one of the first things about Arrow that disappointed me was that I just couldn't get into O/L.  There was no chemistry and I found their background to be completely repulsive. Even if KC and SA had had better chemistry and the show had continued to move forward with them as the main pairing, I think the writers would have had a hell of time making up for the history they set up between the two.

It was the same for me. I loved everything about the show or almost, but that romantic relationship. I was certain they'd be reuniting and wondering whether I'd go on watching or not, when the writers drastically reduced (or at least, it was my feeling) the Oliver/Laurel scenes. It allowed me to enojy the show more and to get engrossed in the other aspects and relationships, so I stayed.

 

TBH, I'm not sure that the sleezy background is the problem. The Vampire Diaries works on brother swapping and sleezy relationships where the hero is a rapist, if I rely on what I read, and it was a huge success for the CW. To be honest I've wondered whether there wasn't a suits demand ("make TVD with superheroes, at least for the romantic aspect"). Twilight and 50 Shades work on relationships that would have me stage an intervention whereas millions of people find it oh-so-great and romantic.

Sometimes, there's something more between a fictional couple than what's on the paper, and people root for them. I don't think it was the case for Oliver and Laurel.

 

There was the painfully lacking chemistry in the eyes of many at least, there was also the characters conception (of lackthereof imo, for Laurel) that made them a wrong fit for me, and there's was also I think the way the way the relationship was written as the big love story. From what I saw onscreen, it was written as more than it actually was. A recurring problem with Laurel, imo, on every level, but it was even more obvious there.

For example, I remember Thea's speech, asking Oliver to open up. I think it's the moment when Thea definitely won me over. And where did Oliver go? At Laurel's. I suppose I was supposed to swoon and fangirl about how Oliver loved Laurel and feel the connexion between them. But in the context, with the lack and chemistry and the background, all I thought was:

WTF, he ignores the desperate plea of his sister who needs him to go to that girl who  hates his guts and treats him like crap and whom he cheated on, lied to, and goes on lying to and I have to endure a hollow "bonding" scene between those two? 

It was pretty much my reaction to every Oliver/Laurel scene in S1, unfortunately

[BkWurm1]

For example, I remember Thea's speech, asking Oliver to open up. I think it's the moment when Thea definitely won me over. And where did Oliver go? At Laurel's. I suppose I was supposed to swoon and fangirl about how Oliver loved Laurel and feel the connection between them. But in the context, with the lack and chemistry and the background, all I thought was:  WTF, he ignores the desperate plea of his sister who needs him to go to that girl who  hates his guts and treats him like crap and whom he cheated on, lied to, and goes on lying to and I have to endure a hollow "bonding" scene between those two?

 

That was my tipping point.  It's the moment where I fell firmly on Thea's side and firmly against Laurel.  For evermore.  I didn't love Laurel in the first episode but after Thea begged, just begged Oliver to open up to her and he takes fricken ICE CREAM to Laurel when ice cream just screams I'm hanging with my kid sister I felt betrayed on Thea's behalf and Laurel is the one I blamed, fair or not. 

 

It happened to me twice.  I reacted the exact same way the second time I watched the episode (during a rewatch)  I saw Oliver walking down a hallway and I thought he was in the Queen Manor and was knocking on Thea's door and for a moment I was thinking, "Oh, I must have forgot the part where he actually did go talk to Thea" and then Laurel opened the door and I was furious all over again for Oliver's blind spot. 

 

I was rooting against any kind of friendship between Oliver and Laurel from that time on. 

[tarotx]

For me Oliver and Laurel was always icky since I have 3 sisters and it just sickens me that the show would do this with sisters. But when they Brought Sara on as a living breathing character that is when I knew that Laurel and Oliver was never going to work for me. Oliver had sex with Laurel at the end of s1 but that was all that happened. When Sara returned Oliver got into a mini relationship with her. No way would Laurel be able to be with Oliver again. It's just uber unbelievable for her character. Sara and Laurel was already going to have a long road to recover any sisterhood. Laurel deserves better. I just don't understand why her fans would want it. I know they have reasons but I personally just can't see them. I do get the comicbook fans because they just know Dinah and Oliver are together. Romance and Costume is the main thing they want from the comics and the cool special arrows. They aren't really caring about the Characters per say. It's more tradition for them. Which I get.

[Danny Franks]

I do get the comicbook fans because they just know Dinah and Oliver are together. Romance and Costume is the main thing they want from the comics and the cool special arrows. They aren't really caring about the Characters per say. It's more tradition for them. Which I get.

 

I've said this many times, but I very much doubt it's comic book fans who are clamouring for Oliver and Laurel to get together on the show. It's an easy assumption to make, because the people who want them together say, 'the comics say it should be that way', but that's not what I have ever seen online, or when speaking to fans of the Green Arrow and Black Canary comic book characters.

 

This is fans of Katie Cassidy, and those who are invested in Oliver/Laurel (as all pairings have fans, regardless of how the pairing plays out on screen) using the comic books as 'proof' as to why they're right. I don't even think DC comics fans are that invested in Green Arrow and Black Canary as a couple anyway. They're nowhere near Superman/Lois Lane levels, as a traditional pair. And even in the comic books, they've been dysfunctional and problematic.

[statsgirl]

I don't even have any bad feelings about LL sleeping with OQ. If I was in her position, I would have done the same thing. She owed it to herself & her lingering feelings to see if there was still something real between them. So in that regards I 100% support LL for sleeping with OQ.

 

For me, when the previous episode she had said she was going to fight for her relationship with Tommy, it was another nail in her coffin.  She had been living with Tommy, she had feelings for him, but the minute she gets the info that Oliver, the man she's repeatedly said she hated, still wants her, she's climbing him like a tree.  Maybe if she had been heart-free it would have made sense for her to see what a fling with Oliver would be like.  (And maybe if she hadn't spent the season saying she hated him and he's not the man the Hood is.)  It makes her "love" for Tommy meaningless, he was just Oliver-lite for her.  Poor, poor, Tommy.

 

From how they wrote Laurel in both flashbacks and season 1, the only thing that makes sense is that she was with Ollie for reasons other than the love of him. 

 

The backstory is just so horrible. I think if they had made Sara her best friend instead of her sister, that might have been more manageable. The whole sister card really put OQ in an awful light.

It put all three of them in a bad light. Actually the person I have the most empathy for is Sara, who genuinely believed that she was in love with Oliver and that Laurel's relationship with him was a sham, which it was. She was wrong to take the sex trip with Oliver but at least her feelings were honest and she wasn't trying to manipulate anyone to get what she wanted.

 

I think if it had been Laurel's friend, that would have made it worse for me. Just as Oliver broke the bro-code when he slept with Laurel in 1x22, Laurel's friend going on the trip would have been a betrayal.  As the saying going, pick your friends well because your family you're stuck with, and I would have been more upset if my best friend had done something like that whereas I'm used to my brother sideswiping me.

[Primal Slayer]

I felt no empathy for Sara since she knew that was her sisters boyfriend. Regardless of her feelings for Oliver, she shouldn't have knowingly been the other woman. 

[calliope1975]

I felt no empathy for Sara since she knew that was her sisters boyfriend. Regardless of her feelings for Oliver, she shouldn't have knowingly been the other woman. 

 

I agree with this, but I think my feeling has always been, with Oliver and Sara, that their "punishment" well made up for the crime. They more than suffered for their actions, but at first, I also understood why Laurel would continue to hate Oliver. The problem, for me, was I couldn't connect with her character and eventually never wanted to see O/L find their way back to one another. 

[AyChihuahua]

I agree with this, but I think my feeling has always been, with Oliver and Sara, that their "punishment" well made up for the crime. They more than suffered for their actions, but at first, I also understood why Laurel would continue to hate Oliver. The problem, for me, was I couldn't connect with her character and eventually never wanted to see O/L find their way back to one another.

Both Sara and Oliver basically got the firing squad for stealing a pack of gum.

[EmeraldArcher]

Heck, I can't even blame anybody for wanting to do it. I know everyone wonders about his snowflake status, and I must admit I do give it serious consideration sometimes. But then my answer is usually, well its Oliver Queen - can you blame them?

 

Ollie Queen, I'm not sure if I would have passed him up either.

Sorry, @kismet, I just don't buy it! Ollie Queen had the floppy hair and the douche clothes and the petulant voice and the face of a freakin' serial killer! Have you've forgotten what he looked like in that hideous FB photo that prompted Felicity to call him cute?! It was dark and her glasses were very clearly too smudged to be useful! Maybe, like LL, you always saw the good in him because you know he grows up to become Oliver Queen? ;-)

I didn't like LL with Tommy either. She was clearly attracted to the Hood, stood Tommy up when they were supposed to try the candidate chefs at Verdant in order to meet The Hood, and then bitched at Tommy about her father lying to HER even as Tommy was confronting her about her lying to him! I think Tommy was better and deserved better than both LL and OQ.

[lexicon]

Honestly, I have no sympathy for any of the participants in the Oliver Queen-Lance sister triangle of doom. That entire debacle in all its various incarnations leaves a bad taste in my mouth. As if the sister swapping pre-series wasn't bad enough, they decided to revisit it post-island by having Oliver sleep with LL and then SL in short succession. Yuck.

 

It was gross then and it was even grosser the second time around and no amount of LL giving her blessing to the relationship would make it any more palatable. In fact, it kind of made it grosser in my eyes. It solidified the feeling I got during the flashbacks when SL mentioned that she'd had a crush on OQ and LL knew that and orchestrated things to meet him first. It was as though OQ had no say in any of this and which sister he was with was entirely up to them and their machinations. They behaved, at times as if he were a toy that the Lance sisters were fighting over, which was frankly ridiculous.

 

This triangle brought out the worst in everybody and made all three characters involved unlikable and impossible to root for.

 

Pre-island "Ollie" was a douchebag of epic proportions who not only cheated on his gf, but chose to do so with her sister.

 

LL was shown to be calculating with her scheming to prevent Sara from meeting OQ and then quite easily turning a blind eye to his frequent cheating (In another person I might have called that naivety but LL, even in the Fbs comes across as anything but, so my only guess is she was willing to accept his cheating in order to become Ms. Oliver Queen)

 

SL may have believed herself in love with OQ and them to have been denied the relationship they could've had because of LL but once LL became his gf, he should've been off limits. I'm really confused as to what Sara thought her relationship with OQ was before they set off on the trip. He was still clearly dating her sister and he promised her that LL would never find out about them so clearly he never intended/promised to dump LL and start to openly date SL, so what was Sara's endgame? 

 

Even if all of that could be forgiven as the foibles of teenagers/persons on the cusp of their 20's, the fact that all three chose to revisit these very messy dynamics once OQ and SL returned from the island made all of it even worse. 

Edited September 14, 2015 by lexicon

[statsgirl]

I didn't find Ollie Queen attractive but that's more because of who he was and what he did than what he looked like

 

I'm not sure I would have gone for s1 Oliver either.  However I may be influenced by the fact that physically Tommy is more my type.

 

I felt no empathy for Sara since she knew that was her sisters boyfriend. Regardless of her feelings for Oliver, she shouldn't have knowingly been the other woman.

Oliver cheating on Laurel didn't seem to stop her though.  When Sara wondered why Laurel was planning their engagement and wedding when Oliver has cheated on her with 10 women she knew about, Laurel's reply was "Why can't you be happy for me?"

 

I doubt Sara thought that Laurel would be happy if she slept with Oliver but since Laurel kept taking him back when he was unfaithful, maybe she thought that would blow over too.  Or maybe it was an act of rebellion against Laurel for the grounding during which Laurel hooked up the guy she knew Sara was interested in, snapping at ara when she was trying to give Laurel a reality check, and whatever else may have been in their past.  I know KC talks a lot about Laurel loving Sara but until s3, I never saw it on screen.

[Primal Slayer]

I try not to even think about the whole Laurel calling the cops on Sara when she was suppose to meet Oliver or whatever it was. The writers did everything they could to make Laurel the bad guy in season 2 it was beyond ridiculous. They went out of their way to try to make Sara as sympathetic to the viewers when she already was just by going through hell on the island, they didn't need to make her the "innocent" party during the Laurel/Oliver/Sara romance saga.

[AyChihuahua]

Sorry, @kismet, I just don't buy it! Ollie Queen had the floppy hair and the douche clothes and the petulant voice and the face of a freakin' serial killer! Have you've forgotten what he looked like in that hideous FB photo that prompted Felicity to call him cute?! It was dark and her glasses were very clearly too smudged to be useful! Maybe, like LL, you always saw the good in him because you know he grows up to become Oliver Queen? ;-)

I didn't like LL with Tommy either. She was clearly attracted to the Hood, stood Tommy up when they were supposed to try the candidate chefs at Verdant in order to meet The Hood, and then bitched at Tommy about her father lying to HER even as Tommy was confronting her about her lying to him! I think Tommy was better and deserved better than both LL and OQ.

Ollie Queen was a selfish self-centered prat. He made his dad give him small bills because he didn't want to give the pizza guy a $100 bill. He was a frigging BILLIONAIRE. Give the guy the damn hundo and tell him to keep the change, you turd. So what I'm saying is that he would have been an unfocused, selfish lover. Plus, dude had to have been teeming with STDs.

I always thought LL and Tommy were highly, highly overrated. It wasn't that they were good together, it's that they were less bad. She wasn't all that nice to him and their chemistry was just not terribad like the O/L anti-chem. Not exactly a ringing endorsement of the pairing.

[statsgirl]

Plus, dude had to have been teeming with STDs.

I was going to say "maybe he was narcissistic enough to wear a condom" and then I remember he got that girl pregnant.  So ewwwww.

I'd feel very sorry for Felicity if that came back to affect her in any way.

 

There was nothing about Ollie that I found attractive in any way  I wish they had shown us why Laurel, smart, focussed, ambitious,gorgeous, was so into him as to be willing to take him back again and again.  Because without that, she looks like a gold digger.

Edited September 14, 2015 by statsgirl

[AyChihuahua]

I was going to say "maybe he was narcissistic enough to wear a condom" and then I remember he got that girl pregnant.  So ewwwww.

I'd feel very sorry for Felicity if that came back to affect her in any way.

I feel pretty comfortable that they won't show Felicity coming down with a raging case of gonorrhea because of Ollie's manwhore days. I'm assuming he got the diseases that are curable, and got them cured. But Ollie is forever EWWWWWW to me. I really wish everyone except maybe Thea would stop calling him Ollie. I hate it, hate it, hate it. My #1 nope for fanfic is Felicity calling him Ollie.

[kismet]

Sorry, @kismet, I just don't buy it! Ollie Queen had the floppy hair and the douche clothes and the petulant voice and the face of a freakin' serial killer! Have you've forgotten what he looked like in that hideous FB photo that prompted Felicity to call him cute?! It was dark and her glasses were very clearly too smudged to be useful! Maybe, like LL, you always saw the good in him because you know he grows up to become Oliver Queen? ;-).

Well, it's true. :)  I'm not saying I would date the guy. I'm just talking about a casual fling type of thing. His hair & his voice don't always bother me in FB. I'm also thinking about what my 20yr old-ish self would do, not my 30yr oldish self. When I think of Ollie Queen, I think of fast cars, money & pure fun. That might be interesting to give a try. It's a glamorous playboy showing interest, I might have been intrigued to see how much fun it might be. That serial killer picture was absolutely horrible, but in real life he Ollie Queen doesn't always look that bad in the long hair. Back in my 20s, that frat boy hairdo was very popular. All I'm saying he was a rich bad boy, and in my 20s that might have seemed like a fun night. To date him, oh no even in my 20s I was not that dumb. He might have had goodness in him, but it would be the fun that attracted me to him. :)

[dtissagirl]

The magical herbs cleared all his STDs, no worries.

[EmeraldArcher]

 There was nothing about Ollie that I found attractive in any way  I wish they had shown us why Laurel, smart, focussed, ambitious,gorgeous, was so into him as to be willing to take him back again and again.  Because without that, she looks like a gold digger.

So, Felicity's insecurities due to her father's abandonment and Cooper's "suicide" have been discussed here and explored in fics, but has anyone looked into Laurel's scanty backstory for clues about why she'd stay with or even be attracted to a guy like Ollie?

The pre-island FBs of the Lance family made them seem close--the parents seemed loving and supportive. Usually, the family unit is the first place to look for clues, but the Lance family was intact with professional parents, Quentin hadn't spiraled into addiction, and both daughters seemed loved and valued. Laurel did seem to have everything going for her that would inoculate her against some douche like Ollie.

I know that there's a reference about them being friends since they were kids, but I always understood that to be their teenage years (by which time Ollie was in full-on prick mode), because I don't know how billionaire heirs like Oliver and Tommy would meet someone entrenched in the middle-class like Laurel until they were of driving age and had more control over their own mobility. I can't accept that billionaires would send their kids to public school or that the Lance family could send their kids to a swanky private school.

Therefore, my assumption is that Laurel was more mercenary than she was actually in love.

[EmeraldArcher]

Well, it's true. :)  I'm not saying I would date the guy. I'm just talking about a casual fling type of thing. His hair & his voice don't always bother me in FB. I'm also thinking about what my 20yr old-ish self would do, not my 30yr oldish self. When I think of Ollie Queen, I think of fast cars, money & pure fun. That might be interesting to give a try. It's a glamorous playboy showing interest, I might have been intrigued to see how much fun it might be. That serial killer picture was absolutely horrible, but in real life he Ollie Queen doesn't always look that bad in the long hair. Back in my 20s, that frat boy hairdo was very popular. All I'm saying he was a rich bad boy, and in my 20s that might have seemed like a fun night. To date him, oh no even in my 20s I was not that dumb. He might have had goodness in him, but it would be the fun that attracted me to him. :)

Eek! I was totally teasing! :-) I hope I didn't make you feel like you had to explain your attraction to Ollie, even if it was only just being, ahem, turned on by a cute enough guy with the right resources! :-)

[Primal Slayer]

Moira did state how she liked Oliver more when he was around Laurel so I can only assume that she brought out his more affectionate side when they were together.

[apinknightmare]

Moira did state how she liked Oliver more when he was around Laurel so I can only assume that she brought out his more affectionate side when they were together.

 

 

And, apparently, when they weren't. 

[dtissagirl]

Awhile ago ago we discussed the possibility of Laurel having a scholarship to whatever billionaire prep school Oliver and Tommy went to. We don't even know if they were in private school, so it's pretty hard to come up with a timeline. But Thea wore a fancy prep school uniform, so it's not hard to imagine Oliver and Tommy went to the same place.

[AyChihuahua]

And, apparently, when they weren't.

That's the answer, he had sooooo much affection, he was just bursting with it and had to share it. A lot. With a lot of different women.

[dtissagirl]

At least 10 women that Sara knew.

Wait, did Sara know about Baby Mama? Eleven women.

Twelve counting Sara.

So much love for Laurel, he had a side chick for each month of the year.

[Primal Slayer]

Awhile ago ago we discussed the possibility of Laurel having a scholarship to whatever billionaire prep school Oliver and Tommy went to. We don't even know if they were in private school, so it's pretty hard to come up with a timeline. But Thea wore a fancy prep school uniform, so it's not hard to imagine Oliver and Tommy went to the same place.

I've always wondered about this. Though maybe Oliver/Tommy went to public school and Moira decided to send Thea to private school after Oliver died to keep her in a more controlled environment?

[apinknightmare]

I cannot imagine the Queens and the Merlyns sending their children to public school.  

[Primal Slayer]

At least 10 women that Sara knew.

Wait, did Sara know about Baby Mama? Eleven women.

Twelve counting Sara.

So much love for Laurel, he had a side chick for each month of the year.

 

And yet Sara had no problem adding to that number for some reason. In season 1 I just chalked it up to Sara being jealous of Laurel to a certain degree which I wish they would've gone with.

[lemotomato]

Moira did state how she liked Oliver more when he was around Laurel so I can only assume that she brought out his more affectionate side when they were together.

I think Moira liked Oliver better when he was with Laurel because that's when he was probably on his best behavior. I got the impression that he and Laurel were dating off-and-on for years, and it was when they were "off" that he was getting into fights with the paparazzi and peeing on cop cars.

[kismet]

I haven't dug too far into LL's personal motivation. But at times, she does seem like she stayed with OQ & dated him because of his name and the future he could provide. It seemed like she was okay with whatever he did, so long as she maintained her title as the girlfriend (then fiance, then wife). He fit into her game plan and she wanted a guy that could offer what his name offered. Not a gold digger, but she definitely came off as a social climber.

 

From a more relationship perspective, I think LL likes a project. I think she likes to fix people and make them better. OQ was the perfect project for her. Every part of him needed work. I think he did have an innate goodness in him, but I don't think that is why she stuck around. Every time he made a mistake, it was probably in her mind a personal plea to fix him. I have known many people who are drawn to bad partners and want to fix them. Some people have a savior complex. They want to be the hero of their story. Taking OQ from bad boy billionaire playboy to classy upstanding citizen was the ultimate prize, with a billionaire wive's prize package to boot. I don't know if she was ever in love with OQ, as much as she was in love with what she imagined her life could be with him. She loved the power & high she probably got from fixing him. He also always returned to her, so that also probably fed her ego.

Edited September 14, 2015 by kismet

[NoWayOut]

Oliver was probably on his best behavior with Laurel in front of Moira. I don't know what Laurel saw in Oliver. Maybe she thought she could be the one to change the bad boy.

 

Isn't Thea and Laurel the only ones who still call him Ollie? I don't like that name because it reminds me of pre-island Oliver but I don't mind people from his past, who are used to calling him that, continuing to do so. It's what they're used to. Felicity called him that once but that was more for Thea's sake than anything else.

 

edit: What @lemotomato said.

Edited September 14, 2015 by NoWayOut

[apinknightmare]

And yet Sara had no problem adding to that number for some reason. In season 1 I just chalked it up to Sara being jealous of Laurel to a certain degree which I wish they would've gone with.

 

To be fair to Sara (to whatever extent you can be fair to someone who is actively cheating with her sister's boyfriend), she wasn't objecting to the number because she thought there was something wrong with it generally speaking, she was objecting to the number because her sister was stupidly thinking she was going to settle down with someone like that. 

Edited September 14, 2015 by apinknightmare

[kismet]

Eek! I was totally teasing! :-) I hope I didn't make you feel like you had to explain your attraction to Ollie, even if it was only just being, ahem, turned on by a cute enough guy with the right resources! :-)

None taken. :) There is no shame in my little corner over here. It probably also helps that even in his douceiest of moments SA can still make OQ look like an adorable puppy you just want to cuddle with. I think I just wanted to clarify that I was not going to date the guy. I have higher standards than that.

[AyChihuahua]

From a more relationship perspective, I think LL likes a project. I think she likes to fix people and make them better. OQ was the perfect project for her. Every part of him needed work. I think he did have an innate goodness in him, but I don't think that is why she stuck around. Every time he made a mistake, it was probably in her mind a personal plea to fix him. I have known many people who are drawn to bad partners and want to fix them. Some people have a savior complex. They want to be the hero of their story. Taking OQ from bad boy billionaire playboy to classy upstanding citizen was the ultimate prize, with a billionaire wive's prize package to boot. I don't know if she was ever in love with OQ, as much as she was in love with what she imagined her life could be with him. She loved the power & high she probably got from fixing him. He also always returned to her, so that also probably fed her ego.

That is a completely awesome analysis and makes a great deal of sense.

[dtissagirl]

And yet Sara had no problem adding to that number for some reason. In season 1 I just chalked it up to Sara being jealous of Laurel to a certain degree which I wish they would've gone with.

I have no investment in this, so at this point I just find the entire sister swapping thing to be funny. Thinking about it makes me wanna giggle. I wish I could sit the EPs down with some beer and go WHO DID THIS on their faces.

[EmeraldArcher]

I haven't dug too far into LL's personal motivation. But at times, she does seem like she stayed with OQ & dated him because of his name and the future he could provide. It seemed like she was okay with whatever he did, so long as she maintained her title as the girlfriend (then fiance, then wife). He fit into her game plan and she wanted a guy that could offer what his name offered. Not a gold digger, but she definitely came off as a social climber.

 

From a more relationship perspective, I think LL likes a project. I think she likes to fix people and make them better. OQ was the perfect project for her. Every part of him needed work. I think he did have an innate goodness in him, but I don't think that is why she stuck around. Every time he made a mistake, it was probably in her mind a personal plea to fix him. I have known many people who are drawn to bad partners and want to fix them. Some people have a savior complex. They want to be the hero of their story. Taking OQ from bad boy billionaire playboy to class upstanding citizen was the ultimate prize, with a billionaire wive's prize package to boot. I don't know if she was ever in love with OQ, as much as she was in love with what she imagined her life could be with him. She loved the power & high she probably got from fixing him. He also always returned to her, so that also probably fed her ego.

I see this, and I remember Laurel telling Thea that she had dated a lot of bad boys. But, lots of people are bad boys and/or projects--Laurel seemed to construct Venn diagrams consisting of "Bad Boy" and "Billionaire" circles and seriously date only those few men in the intersection. OK, so she didn't dump Tommy immediately after Malcolm froze his funds, but it wasn't that much longer before she felt conflicted about her feelings for Oliver again, was it?

I'm not even saying that the writers intend for us to see her that way, but they've inadvertently left me with that very strong impression.

[AyChihuahua]

I have no investment in this, so at this point I just find the entire sister swapping thing to be funny. Thinking about it makes me wanna giggle. I wish I could sit the EPs down with some beer and go WHO DID THIS on their faces.

I think someone has a fetish, seriously. Carly went from Andy to John; Oliver went from Laurel to Sara to Laurel to Sara; and Nyssa went from Sara to (to some extent) Laurel. Three times is more than a coincidence.

[kismet]

I see this, and I remember Laurel telling Thea that she had dated a lot of bad boys. But, lots of people are bad boys and/or projects--Laurel seemed to construct Venn diagrams consisting of "Bad Boy" and "Billionaire" circles and seriously date only those few men in the intersection. OK, so she didn't dump Tommy immediately after Malcolm froze his funds, but it wasn't that much longer before she felt conflicted about her feelings for Oliver again, was it?

I'm not even saying that the writers intend for us to see her that way, but they've inadvertently left me with that very strong impression.

This is why I think that LL should give RP a shot. Ray Palmer is not necessarily a bad boy, but he certainly has attributes that need fixing. He also is most definitely a billionaire. He is like the perfect hybrid project for her to work on. The other reason is I think LL would be good for RP, is he wants absolute loyalty whatever flaws he may have. Part of the reason he was mad at FS seemed to be that she was not loyal enough in his mind, because she questioned some of his intentions/motives in 317. I don't think LL would ever question RP about that. She seems to be geared at being the perfect Stepford wife if she gets to keep the benefits.. I don't know, maybe I'm just playing matchmaker with the castaways but I do think they could have a very productive relationship.

Edited September 14, 2015 by kismet

[dtissagirl]

And Thea kissed her half-brother. And Oliver screwed his father's mistress. It's all white dudebros' idea of what ~risqué~ content looks like. Interchangeable women, evil seductresses, school girl crushing on older dude but psych! punished for it because he's her brother.

Or they just watch A LOT of soaps.

[statsgirl]

Maybe they watch telenovellas.

 

Quentin was blue collar (according to PB) but Dinah taught at university so I imagine she would have been very keen on a good education for Laurel, and the family would have made sacrifices to get the girls into good schools.

 

The high school you went to doesn't matter that much where I am but I've heard that it's important to get into a good prep school in the US so that you can get into to one of the top universities.

Moira did state how she liked Oliver more when he was around Laurel so I can only assume that she brought out his more affectionate side when they were together.

Or maybe she was hoping that he would settle down by being with Laurel.  She assumed the pregnancy was Laurel's, but wasn't too shocked to hear that it wasn't.  And heaven forbid either Moira or Robert get angry at Oliver for cheating on his girlfriend.

 

Robert should have put his foot down and refused to take Sara with them on the Gambit.

 

I wonder if Moira didn't want Felicity with Oliver because she couldn't control her, or if she just thought Felicity would be bad for him.

Edited September 14, 2015 by statsgirl

[Primal Slayer]

And Thea kissed her half-brother. And Oliver screwed his father's mistress. It's all white dudebros' idea of what ~risqué~ content looks like. Interchangeable women, evil seductresses, school girl crushing on older dude but psych! punished for it because he's her brother.

Or they just watch A LOT of soaps.

And they almost had Laurel date/being in love with 2 brothers if they went with their original plan of Malcolm being Olivers father.

 

Robert should have put his foot down and refused to take Sara with them on the Gambit.

 

Robert was to busy boinking Isabel at the time. He probably endorsed Olivers cheating.

[statsgirl]

Robert told Oliver that it wasn't going to end well for any of them (Laurel, Oliver or Sara) but he didn't do anything to stop it.

 

At least Oliver told Moira off about their poor parenting when Thea got into trouble.

[apinknightmare]

I wonder if Moira didn't want Felicity with Oliver because she couldn't control her, or if she just thought Felicity would be bad for him.

She probably thought that Oliver being with Felicity would be bad for HER, haha.

[AyChihuahua]

This is why I think that LL should give RP a shot. Ray Palmer is not necessarily a bad boy, but he certainly has attributes that need fixing. He also is most definitely a billionaire. He is like the perfect hybrid project for her to work on. The other reason is I think LL would be good for RP, is he wants absolute loyalty whatever flaws he may have. Part of the reason he was mad at FS seemed to be that she was not loyal enough in his mind, because she questioned some of his intentions/motives in 317. I don't think LL would ever question RP about that. She seems to be geared at being the perfect Stepford wife if she gets to keep the benefits.. I don't know, maybe I'm just playing matchmaker with the castaways but I do think they could have a very productive relationship.

Why would you wish the Cane Toad on ANYONE?

[kismet]

I wonder if Moira didn't want Felicity with Oliver because she couldn't control her, or if she just thought Felicity would be bad for him.

I will forever be mad at them for killing off Moira because we will never know what she really thought of FS being with her son. I think if Moira had seen them interact with each other in the good parts of s3 and now s4, without the drama of revealing TQ's paternity, she might have changed her mind. What Moira was upset about was that she saw FS as having a crush on her son & perhaps OQ falling prey to his father's bad habits. FS was not just some upstart trying to use OQ to get ahead, unlike IR who did something similar to her family & caused significant hurt. If OQ had been able to describe to his mother the true nature of his relationship with FS, I think she would have seen what a good influence she was on her son.

 

I really think she wanted OQ to have a true partner who brings out the best of him. With OQ not telling MQ exactly what his nocturnal activities with FS were, how was she supposed to know that FS is his personal Jiminy Crickett? She saw a pretty girl promoted out of nowhere that both her ex-husband & her son had a soft spot for. I don't know how unfaithful RQ was to MQ, but we know he was. We know that they had a rocky marriage in terms of fidelity, that must influence how she sees new & pretty girls when they have a close relationship with her family. And then for OQ to go against her, and side with FS that must have made her really wonder what power FS was holding over him. All I can say is MQ never got to know the true relationship between O/F and that is a shame because I think she would have liked FS. But we will never know because it was more important for MQ to die & fuel OQ's manpain.

[BkWurm1]

but has anyone looked into Laurel's scanty backstory for clues about why she'd stay with or even be attracted to a guy like Ollie?

 

The bad boy  thing has to in part be rebelling against the cop dad but yeah,  I think the lifestyle intrigued her as well.  Plus he probably was rather charming and outspoken in an appealing way.

 

 

 

I cannot imagine the Queens and the Merlyns sending their children to public school.  

It's so different state to state.  In some states, the general regular public high schools are higher rated (or as high) as any paid private school.  Still, even if they sent Oliver to a private one, I have a feeling he probably could have got himself thrown out of it and have no where left to go but the regular public schools. 

 

I've had a unsupported theory that the Queens and the Lances' destinies got linked due to Ollie screwing up and the influence of the Queen money  coming down and getting Quentin to drop a charge against Oliver in exchange for scholarships for his daughters. Dina would have pressured him to do it, thus creating another reason for a rift between them when Sara died.  Thus the reason that Quentin blames Oliver so badly would be because Quentin actually blames himself first and foremost for compromising his ethics and setting in motion the exposure of his two daughters to Oliver Queen.   

Edited September 14, 2015 by BkWurm1