Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[AyChihuahua]

LOL.

 

I liked his shock when she poked him in the chest. I started shipping them when she broke the coffee maker.

The chest poke (2.2, right?) and his look down at her poking hand was hilarious.

[SmallScreenDiva]

Laura Hurley recently responded to an ask and it's a question I've seen raised on this board a bit -- about whether there was a plan to pursue a more permanent, or at least longer Sara/Oliver romance -- so I thought I'd post her answer here.

The chest poke (2.2, right?) and his look down at her poking hand was hilarious.

 

He did that twice that I remember in early Season 2, like he's always surprised that she touched him. That poke in 202 and later in the episode when they were arguing in the lair after Oliver mentions Diggle. I can't remember if Felicity poked him or grabbed his arm.

[AyChihuahua]

I thought he played it as surprised and offended, but in a funny way. He probably didn't get poked a whole lot in his whole life, except by Thea.

[dtissagirl]

I think not only Sara/Oliver, but also Laurel/Tommy, and Felicity/Palmer were all written from a "it's temporary" standpoint. The writing for all of those relarionships telegraphed over and over again that they wouldn't last.

[Starfish35]

I do wonder how early in S2 they decided they were gonna kill Sara to make Laurel happen. We know from Caity Lotz that she knew Sara was gonna die when she filmed the S2 finale, but maybe they decided it all much earlier -- around the same time they decided to pick a definite lane with Felicity, maybe?

It took me awhile to find these quotes on MG's tumblr, but here's what he says:

satanichorse asked:

Was it ever considered to kill Sara off in the season 2 finale? I have seen some fans being a bit angry about Sara basically being brought back for 10 minutes only for her to die.

No, it wasn’t a thought for Season 2.

http://marcguggenheim.tumblr.com/post/108237879459/was-it-ever-considered-to-kill-sara-off-in-the

sophisticatecl asked:

This has been eating away at me for the longest time, but when did you, the writers, know that you were going to kill of Sara and use Laurel as her sort of replacement? And how far in advance did you guys tell the actors about it as well?

This was something that we came up with when starting the planning for Season 3. We informed Caity as soon as we got studio and network approval of the storyline.

http://marcguggenheim.tumblr.com/post/113603435674/this-has-been-eating-away-at-me-for-the-longest Edited August 29, 2015 by Starfish35

[tangerine95]

I didn't think they were planing on killing Sara in season 2.They focused so much on her and gave her everything BC that they totally forgot Laurel was supposed BC.

I honestly don't get how they managed to get the studio and network permission to kill of a popular character and have the most hated one replace her.Someone must have thought that was a bad idea.It was a big gamble that didn't pay off in the end.

[wonderwall]

....or, they weren't planning on killing Sara at all and something happened in between seasons to change that. I mean... If they were planning on killing her off so soon, then they definitely wouldn't have focused on her in S2. Sara in S2 marginalized Digg/Felicity, and that just seems like too much focus on a character that was supposed to die. Sorry but that makes no sense to me.

 

And if they DID have plans on killing Sara, then the S2 finale would've been perfect. Instead of sending her off w/ Nyssa they easily could've killed her and Laurel's journey could've started at the beginning of S3. Instead, sending her off w/ Nyssa meant that they intended on bringing Sara back at one point in S3. 

 

Killing off Sara seemed like a last minute thing. Why else bring her back for 5 minutes in 3x01 only to kill her off? Sorry, but that just makes zero sense to me. 

 

#conspiracytheory

[tangerine95]

It makes no sense to me either.If they brought her in to be placeholder for Laurel and support her story then they really failed since it was the opposite on screen.Sara was pretty much a co lead with Oliver at one point.

I think it was an issue with KC having being BC written in her contract or something along those lines.I used to think there was no way that was the reason but after her half assed BC arc,bringing Sara back and the lack of promotion for Laurel it's looking a lot more plausible.

[Chaser]

Maybe they wanted to kill Sara off at the height of her popularity for max shock factor. Maybe they thought fans would sympathize and support Laurel in avenging Sara's death. Maybe they thought Laurel would inherit Sara's popularity if she took her name.

 

Or maybe KC's lawyers pitched a massive fit.

[Starfish35]

....or, they weren't planning on killing Sara at all and something happened in between seasons to change that.

No, I think they knew before the finale. Caity Lotz said she knew before she filmed the finale,and the jacket passing scene was a clear indication of their intentions. And KC talking about running around in excitement, so she knew too.

As to why? I still think it was due to the backlash that erupted over "the lunge." There was a huge tidal wave of Sara hate that erupted after that, and it was maybe the only thing ever that for once had Felicity and Laurel fans united. I'm trying to think which episode would have been filming when Heir to the Demon aired, but it would have been around 217-ish? Probably? It might have made them think they were safe killing off Sara.

It's just my theory though.

Edited August 29, 2015 by Starfish35

[wonderwall]

Hmmmmm when do the writers start planning for S3 though? I thought they start planning after the finales during the summer? Because MG said they came up with the idea when they started planning S3.

 

Oh well. It's not like it matters now anyways :p 

 

But @starfish35 I like your theory better. Although I don't think that killing Sara was necessary -_- She already left. she could've just stayed gone tbh. 

[tangerine95]

I can imagine Sara got a lot of hate after the lunge,but that's honestly to be expected when you put someone between a popular ship.They also sidelined Diggle and Felicity for her and had her involved in Lance family drama.But I think on her own,away from the bad plot Sara was well liked.Laurel was by far the shows most hated in season 2 and after it,it still makes no sense to me that they think she would be better accepted as BC than Sara was.What the experience with Sara in season 2 should have shown them was that there's no room or need for a BC as a regular on the show.

But I agree they didn't expect the backlash they got after killing her.

[dtissagirl]

That's a pretty good theory. Yes, they were filming 217 when 213 aired. At that point they had to have had the rest of the season full on mapped. And the backlash was indeed brutal.

[apinknightmare]

I didn't mind Sara/Oliver at all. But I suspect they would've gotten a lot less backlash if they hadn't had Oliver say that "I can't be with a person I could really care about" line to Felicity only a few eps before. 

Edited August 29, 2015 by apinknightmare

[SmallScreenDiva]

I'm not sure if the backlash over the lunge played any part in TPTB's decision about SL but I do wonder if the low ratings of the middle part of S2, the episodes where she had a big presence, provided them with enough information that made them feel they could kill her off. I'm saying this with the caveat that many factors affect that ratings, that any decline or rise can't be attributed to a single person or event. But they'd already introduced the LOA in Season 2 so the Lazarus Pits were already in play so the possibility of SL's resurrection was already something they had in their backpocket.

Edited August 29, 2015 by SmallScreenDiva

[Chaser]

Glad I wasn't in the fandom when Oliver and Sara were a thing, because even though I never shipped them they never bothered me. I excepted them to hook up so I was surprised that people were surprised. I thought it was a bad call because I still thought they were going with Oliver and Laurel, but they were already messy anyway. 

 

If they killed off Sara due to backlash, that's irony at its finest.

[statsgirl]

I think they were looking for a way to motivate the s3 storyline with Ra's and Laurel becoming the Black Canary and decided that killing off Sara was the best way to accomplish that because while Sara was no longer an obstacle to Olicity, she was a huge obstacle to Laurel becoming the Black Canary.  She was the Better Black Canary and she had to be gone so Laurel could have a place to rise.  I wish they had instead had Sara kidnapped and Laurel taking on her persona to find her, and maybe now the EPs wish they'd done that too, but they decided to kill Sara instead.  Also shock factor, which they love.

 

While shippers hated the lunge, in terms of the show overall, or TV dramas really, it was no big deal. It's unfortunate that it came after Oliver's "I can be with someone I could really care about speech" and telling Felicity she'll never lose him but that sort of stall-ship happens on every show.  On Castle, he had his ex-wife and Beckett had Demmings and Dr. Motorcycle Boy.  Both Bones and Booth went through a number of relationships before they got together, and so did just about every other show.

 

Just like we're all expecting Oliver and Felicity to break up for a time in season 5, or maybe even season 4.  I just hope neither has an affair during their break-up, although that's SOP too.

 

The problem with Sara for me was not the lunge and the Oliver/Sara relationship because that made sense story-wise, it was that those episodes practically became the Oliver & Sara Hour because we were getting Sara in the flashbacks, Sara out fighting with Oliver and Sara in a relationship with Oliver, and Diggle and Felicity were pushed to the background.  In The Promise, Felicity had two lines all episode (and one was that awful "Please save Oliver") and Diggle didn't have many more.  It was just really bad plotting on the writers' part and I think the anger towards Sara came more from that than the lunge.

 

I don't think they killed Sara because she was unpopular, I think they misread how popular she was and thought they could use her to motivate s3.  I doubt they expected the backlash that they got with that.

Edited August 29, 2015 by statsgirl

[EmilyBettFan]

The whole Heir to the Demon episode gave me a weird feeling. Once he said the line "I don't want to lose you." Or "I don't want you to get away." I can't remember the exact words I knew he was going to kiss her or more. Ugh lol

I like Sara though.

[statsgirl]

I think it makes sense that Oliver didn't want to lose Sara again. He'd spent 5 years thinking she had drowned, on top of the year he thought that in the beginning, and not only was she someone he cared about, he felt responsible to what happened to her.

 

The question is, could it have remained a platonic relationship in 2b?

[Guest]

Count me in as not being bothered about Oliver/Sara, although I would have preferred them just to have a one night stand rather than a relationship. It was the relationship that threw me. I mean, it wasn't the best because it still involved Oliver going between two sisters after all these years so, you know, gross. But I didn't hate it and I never saw it as this big deep and meaningful thing. I just thought Oliver was a bit of an idiot to be making the same mistakes after all these years.

 

As for Sara's death, I think they underestimated her popularity. I think they assumed the drop in ratings was reflective on Sara and O/S, rather than too much focus on the Lance family as a whole. There were a few episodes there which were clearly a Lance family arc and it was so tiresome but that was on the family as a whole, not just Sara. 

 

I still think the death was lazy writing. There were plenty of ways to write her out or keep her away if they so desperately wanted Laurel as BC still and they chose the cheapest, lamest one. Which is s3 in a nutshell.

Edited August 29, 2015 by Guest

[Starfish35]

See I'm not convinced that they always planned to make Laurel the BC. In retrospect everything points to them having at least considered making Sara THE real BC, including the fact that KC seemed to think she was out of it once CL came along. But then something changed during the back half of S2 that caused them to revert to their original plan, and if that wasn't the reaction to Sara and Oliver hooking up, then what was it? *shrug* IDK.

Edited August 29, 2015 by Starfish35

[Guest]

I think whatever changed was all BTS.

[statsgirl]

But wouldn't they have expected that Lauriver and Olicity shippers hated the lunge?  This wasn't their first rodeo and Berlanti alone had tons of experience of audience reaction to messing with the OTP (whatever it is)?

 

I still think it had more to do with making Laurel the Black Canary. and maybe Malcolm's storyline.

 

 

the fact that KC seemed to think she was out of it once CL came along.

I know she stopped doing media for the show but I thought that was because she didn't like her storyline.   Is there something else that makes you think this?

[Starfish35]

I don't have the exact quotes but she has said in recent cons that she has done that when Caity Lotz was brought in, she was disappointed but was like "well that's the way it goes sometimes". Now maybe I'm misinterpreting what she said, but it sounded to me like she thought she had been replaced as BC when Caity was hired, not that she thought it was being delayed.

[Morrigan2575]

I don't have the exact quotes but she has said in recent cons that she has done that when Caity Lotz was brought in, she was disappointed but was like "well that's the way it goes sometimes". Now maybe I'm misinterpreting what she said, but it sounded to me like she thought she had been replaced as BC when Caity was hired, not that she thought it was being delayed.

She said it at Fan Expo in April of S2 (and I think a few times after that). She was disappointed when they told her CL was going to be BC in S2 and that she knew how Hollywood works but had to make the best of it.

[wingster55]

Thinking about it, I was confused before when I fell in love with Oliver and Felicity. It was a toss up between 1x23 or 2x01. But I realized that I fell in love with Felicity's character in 1x23 and I fell in love with Oliver/Felicity in 2x01. 

 

I think what was so great about 2x01 was that a lot happened Olicity-wise that made me feel like they could be more, that they would be wonderful together: 

• Felicity jumping out of a plane to help bring Oliver back - Shows how far she would go for him.
• Oliver saved Felicity from that mine and when Oliver didn't get off of Felicity immediately, it was the first indication that the tides were changing and I liked that change
• Felicity made Oliver smile (possibly his first smile after the undertaking) and it was effortless on her part. 
• Oliver told Felicity he missed her and it was genuine and warm and just a nice moment
• Oliver comes back and Felicity pushes Oliver to become the vigilante again to reach his potential and to not let him give up
• Oliver tells someone (I don't remember who) that people tend to fail to see the real him, and the camera pans to Felicity who looks at him. That's the first time I saw how deep their relationship runs and how important they are to one another
• Oliver doesn't want to kill anymore and Felicity supports him 100%
• Felicity even gets Oliver a custom made bow and Oliver thinks it's perfect. Another indication to show just how well Felicity knows Oliver. 

 

A lot happened in this episode. And they're all little moments but put them all together and you can see that the writers started wanting people to support this couple as early as 2x01. 

That's actually why I felt they went too hard too fast. I mean...TWO tarzan rescue swings in one episode, his first smile was with her was too sudden...I honestly don't think he should have smiled that ep at all. (Also...during the second rescue swing...why was Felicity even there? She wasn't ;his secretary then)

[apinknightmare]

(Also...during the second rescue swing...why was Felicity even there? She wasn't ;his secretary then)

 

Probably because she had been keeping up on what was going on with Oliver's company when he shipped himself off to Lian Yu, knew Isabel/Stelmoor International's history of gutting companies - since she filled Oliver in on the state of things, and because Oliver probably trusted her more than anyone else who worked at the company to look out for his best interests. Just a guess. 

Edited August 29, 2015 by apinknightmare

[wonderwall]

That's actually why I felt they went too hard too fast. I mean...TWO tarzan rescue swings in one episode, his first smile was with her was too sudden...I honestly don't think he should have smiled that ep at all. (Also...during the second rescue swing...why was Felicity even there? She wasn't ;his secretary then)

 

I mean Felicity has a knack for making Oliver smile? Felicity made Oliver effortlessly smile the first time they met, she made him smile everytime he asked her for something... Basically she cracked a joke, Oliver smiled accordingly. It's not unbelievable that she would make him smile after the undertaking. And Oliver had 5 months of not smiling and blaming himself so it's about time he smiled. 

 

I enjoyed the two tarzan rescues. The first one wasn't necessary but the second one was. 

 

Also Felicity was there because she was the one filling Oliver in on what Isabel was doing with the company, she was the one helping Oliver get back to speed. She took the initiative to help him. That's why she was there? I think that episode was WHY Oliver wanted her to be his secretary along w/ not wanting to go down 18 floors to speak to Felicity. 

 

ETA: @apinknightmare and I had the same thought ;)

Edited August 29, 2015 by wonderwall

[statsgirl]

Felicity was organizing bagels for the meeting.  The utility of good blood sugar levels for getting things done in a meeting cannot be overstated. But as she told Oliver, no one was eating them, a bad sign.

 

I can understand why she was there though.  Oliver was a very reluctant CEO (they had to drag him back from Lian Yu) and he had zero administration/organizational skills.  Felicity didn't have many but at least she'd been working at QC for the last four years, which was more work experience Oliver had.  The in-show explanation for Oliver making Felicity his EA was so that he didn't have to go down 18 floors to speak with her (too bad there was no distance communication device) but really it makes more sense that he needed support in doing his job.

 

ETA:  thirding kind of the same thought.  whispers makes me glad when there's a differing opinion.

Edited August 29, 2015 by statsgirl

[Chaser]

I only like the Tarzan swing because it allowed for the land mine moment in S3 (and Diggle with the Suzanne Somers leg exercises in the background). I found it a little too over the top in the moment.

 

The QC swing is my favorite Olicity stunt.   

[dtissagirl]

You bring the bagels, you get a seat at the table. It's a corporate rule.

[Guest]

Wasn't Felicity there because Oliver asked her to be there? I thought that would be obvious. She works at QC after all. He probably called and asked for her help beforehand because he trusts her.

 

To be fair the stunt wouldn't have been the same if it was Oliver and Diggle. Let's be honest now.

Edited August 29, 2015 by Guest

[statsgirl]

Oliver is well known to be chronically late.  Someone had to be at the meeting on time.  She probably had to book the room too since Oliver wouldn't have thought of that.

[dtissagirl]

And Oliver would have NEVER thought to bring bagels. The jerk.

[apinknightmare]

And Oliver would have NEVER thought to bring bagels. The jerk.

 

Carbs.

[wonderwall]

I mean...... if y'all haven't heard, apparently some people think Oliver is less buff now and are blaming it on Felicity because of their vacation :p

 

It was her plan all along. Feed Oliver enough carbs so he becomes less fit so he can't be a vigilante anymore and he can be with her forever and ever. 

Edited August 30, 2015 by wonderwall

[statsgirl]

She's an evil woman.  And she never had the benefit of Starling City in mind at all.

[Guest]

I mean...... if y'all haven't heard, apparently some people think Oliver is less buff now and are blaming it on Felicity because of their vacation :p

 

It was her plan all along. Feed Oliver enough carbs so he becomes less fit so he can't be a vigilante anymore and he can be with her forever and ever. 

 

Please tell me you are joking? It's worrying that I have to ask that because I would not put that line of thinking past some people...

[wonderwall]

Please tell me you are joking? It's worrying that I have to ask that because I would not put that line of thinking past some people...

I've seen that comment a couple of times (the Oliver being less buff b/c of Felicity thing. the rest I made up lol) :p It's sad. So, so sad. 

Edited August 30, 2015 by wonderwall

[dtissagirl]

Oh, pffft. All that sex will keep his abs in shape.

[AyChihuahua]

SA is a little less cut now than he was in S1 and S2. I blame it on the fact that he's a few years older and is a real live human being who likes occasionally to eat/drink a beer/not work out 1000 hours a day. Since he's not actually a comic book character.

[Guest]

I've seen that comment a couple of times (the Oliver being less buff b/c of Felicity thing. the rest I made up lol) :p It's sad. So, so sad. 

 

Oh my word! The shit people come out with, I cannot! Wow. So sad.

 

I think SA is slightly 'less buff' than early s1 but maybe that's because that was completely unobtainable with his busy lifestyle. Besides, have they seen his arms lately? He looks incredible.

[jay741982]

I've seen that comment a couple of times (the Oliver being less buff b/c of Felicity thing. the rest I made up lol) :p It's sad. So, so sad.

That really is sad cause it shows how they have to hate on Felicity and don't really pay attention c'mon Felicity loves his abs she wouldn't dare stop him for taking care of himself lol.

Oh, pffft. All that sex will keep his abs in shape.

Haha oh yeah no doubt they are both very attractive, their first time was scorching there was a lot of time for hot sex to happen and we know it did. Here's for some more we get to see in S4

[Chaser]

He said before he will never be as cut as he was in S1. That was months of prep work and now that the show is a success, I'm sure he doesn't have the time. The cons and the wine parties on top of the filming has to cut into his training. 

 

People are crazy. He still looks good.

[apinknightmare]

SA is a little less cut now than he was in S1 and S2. I blame it on the fact that he's a few years older and is a real live human being who likes occasionally to eat/drink a beer/not work out 1000 hours a day. Since he's not actually a comic book character.

 

Yeah. And I think he's focusing on his arms more, since those are actually visible in his costume now. At least, he seems to be focusing more on his arms, if the workouts he's been posting are any indication.

[Chaser]

I blame those arms on Felicity. Girl needs leverage.

[EmilyBettFan]

Lmfao at people thinking that Oliver smiling shouldn't occur or is a bad thing just because of who he is smiling at. He smiles at Diggle also. But, when it's Felicity some people just can't handle it.

[jay741982]

I blame those arms on Felicity. Girl needs leverage.

LOL for what? Lifting her up like he did in 320?LOL God that scene was so much sexier than when Oliver and Laurels occurred in S1.

[wonderwall]

I'm in love with this parallel - Tommy helped Oliver fight to survive, and Felicity helped Oliver fight to live.

 

 

 

 

[tarotx]

Lol I'd blame Laurel before Felicity. I mean Oliver having 5 months off of intense training so the Laurel BC will be closer to the equal status to the Green Arrow.

But really there is a couple of things. Stephan Amell is still fit and in killer shape. He's doing incredible work outs in video. He looked d@mn good shirtless at Summer slam.

He also trained a little bit different for a while because his Casey Joins is a orgin story. And the fighting he did was with different weapons.

Stephan's daughter is at an age that she has to be watched and played with and that's not going to change for a few years any way.

Plus Stephan Amell hasn't had a lot of time in the sun and is a little bit whiter this season. He's worked hard but inside training because of all the work, Cons, wine events and the traveling it takes.

That Tommy Survive and Felicity live comparison was beautiful.

Edited August 30, 2015 by tarotx