The Iron Bank Of Braavos

[joliefaire]

So, we've heard the IBoB mentioned prominently in the show recently.  Olenna warns Tywin that the Bank always exacts its due, Tywin says he's not worried about the Bank, Davos dictates a letter to the Bank in Stannis' name.  We know that the Crown is deeply in debt to the Bank, and we know that Mycroft Holmes (Mark Gatiss) is going to appear soon as the Bank president, or director or lord or whatever a bank boss is called in Braavos.

Bookwalkers, lay out for us the Bank's role in the books, and more interestingly, what role and how big a role you think the Bank is going to play in the upcoming episodes and seasons.  Because, we know that the show would not be dropping all these blatant mentions by such prominent characters unless the showrunners intend to expand the Bank's role as a player in the Game. And, I, for one, find that fascinating.  It'll be interesting to speculate on where and how the Iron Bank will begin adding pressure, favoring 'special interests' (ha!), cooking books here, denying loans there, funding trouble-makers behind the scenes.  I think the show could do lots of intrigue, treachery, fake-outs and what-not with the Bank, and IMO Mark/Mycroft is the perfect, sniffish, prissy brilliant chess-player to pull it off.  Your thoughts? 

[GreyBunny]

I love this.  Forget the Others, the Iron Bank fascinates me more.

It's my thought that the real power behind the throne is the Iron Bank.  If you have loans out, as long as you remain solvent and in good standing, you remain on the throne.  If you default (I'm looking at you, Cersei), and they pull their support in favor of someone else (hello, Stannis!) then you're basically done.

When Cersei defaulted, the IB called in their debts which caused a massive realm-wide financial crisis.  Oops (and hahaha to Aurane for stealing the ships Cersei defaulted on to build).  Considering Stannis is still in a weakened position he might not make as much of an impact (but more so than he would without the IB), but the glaring implication is had the IB put their support behind another aspirant who was much stronger - and they still could - it would have overturned the balance of power in King's Landing and quickly sent the Lannisters packing, perhaps ruining the Lannisters financially in the process.

I'd love for Mycroft to do some forensic accounting on the Crown's books and see exactly where Littlefinger had done his embezzling.  (You just know he did.)  Heh.  

Edited April 23, 2014 by GreyBunny

[joliefaire]

I'd love for Mycroft to do some forensic accounting on the Crown's books and see exactly where Littlefinger had done his embezzling.  (You just know he did.)  Heh.  

 

*rubs hands together in anticipation*   Yessssss, give us a look at those books, Mycroft!  Governments run rampant, politicians fleecing the struggling populace.  How, exactly did Petyr the Perv afford that ship?  What usurious interest has Tywin been collecting all these years on his loans to the Crown?  Who else has been dipping their beak into the public trough that we don't know about?  HA, prissy, clever Mycroft is perfect in this role.  I can't wait! 

[GreyBunny]

I know!  I really want to know where the bodies are buried!

And I'm going to keep calling him Mycroft because it's fun and I like Sherlock.  :)

Stannis agreed to take on the Crown's debts but I'd love for the financial shenanigans to whiplash the Lannisters.  What will the Tyrells do?  Since they're yoked to Tommen they may end up bearing some of the brunt, or they could pull support completely and leave the Lannisters holding the (empty) bag.  

I'd love for Stannis to pull off something grand and then be able to force the Lannisters to pay what the Crown owes.  The Lannisters pay their debts, or so I'm told.

Edited April 23, 2014 by GreyBunny

[ZoeT]

Oh, this is good! THIS IS WHERE EVERYTHING IS AT!!! Everyone knows in any universe to not mess with the Bank. #ItIsKnown! Except for book!Cersei or show!Tywin apparently LOL And that is the end of my fangirling over a subject I like.

 

On a more serious note: It will be a huge dent in the Crown's power that the Iron Bank redraws their support. We have just scratched the surface in the books IMO. All those Lannister moneys are peanuts to the wealth of the Braavosi bankers. That's my theory and I agree with the posters above.

 

I mean Tycho just negotiated with Jon Snow his boats away to get to Stannis plus a large chunk of money. Which means they are decided, and they can afford to switch allegiances in hopes of getting their loans repaid from whoever sits the Iron Throne at the end. More importantly they can and are willing to risk it, instead of waiting for Cersei's trial consequences and the new regime's stand on the loans (assuming they know of all the dealings in KL, which I am positive they do).

 

Oh, and they just bet on a pretender who had nothing but a snowed in army frozen to death, at that point in the books! Stannis situation was not exactly rainbows and unicorns...

 

I'd like to point out how exciting I found the idea that finally in the last 2 books and now in the show, we get more into the two powers that shape a society such as Westeros: religion and finance. Yes, the two were ALWAYS there, but suddenly they come front and center against the monarchy. Martin puts these two against the rulers of the time. This IS the game of thrones. You've got your religious crusading, with septons having the power of judging the ruler, then you get the banking system in, who makes or breaks a regime! Who cares about Dragons?!?! haha I'm just kidding.

 

Note regarding Petyr: I would be seriously shocked if he does not have some agreement with the Braavosi bankers. The man might embezzle from the Crown, no doubt but he is not guilty of stupidity. He knows where the power comes from, especially if he was skimming funds that came from the Iron Bank. Or maybe he just thinks he's smarter and quicker then them.

Edited April 26, 2014 by TormundsWoman

[Joystickenvy]

Now I have this Kids in the Hall inspired mental image of Cersei screaming Ffffffffuck the bank! and threatening to eat pancakes on someone's grave.

[joliefaire]

Could some up-to-date Bookwalker lay out, briefly in a paragraph or so, the Iron Bank's involvement in the books to date?  Per the books.  Just a brief overview.  Honestly, its been so many years since I read the book, and I've read so many books since then, that I'm ... vague.  Then, we can take the discussion from there to what the show has in store for Mycroft and his Bank (because I just feel its going to be good).  Thanks.

[RapBert]

Basically, Robert (or rather Littlefinger, who was master of coin) borrowed loads of money from lots of people, including the Iron Bank. In AFFC, Cersei gets the brilliant idea to defer payment on their loans to the Bank. So the Bank decides to call in all outstanding debts and refuses new loans in Westeros.

In ADWD, Jon Snow makes a deal with Tycho Nestoris on behalf of the Night's Watch, and then Nestoris seeks out Stannis, saying they will support his claim if he honors the debts owed to the Bank by the Crown. Stannis then sends one of his knights to the free cities to buy lots of sellswords.

I'm really looking forward to this plot on the show. I just hope by moving it forward they have not ruined it. Still, it will be worth it just to see Mycroft as a banker.

[GreyBunny]

I'd like to point out how exciting I found the idea that finally in the last 2 books and now in the show, we get more into the two powers that shape a society such as Westeros: religion and finance. Yes, the two were ALWAYS there, but suddenly they come front and center against the monarchy. Martin puts these two against the rulers of the time. This IS the game of thrones. You've got your religious crusading, with septons having the power of judging the ruler, then you get the banking system in, who makes or breaks a regime! Who cares about Dragons?!?! haha I'm just kidding.

Note regarding Petyr: I would be seriously shocked if he does not have some agreement with the Braavosi bankers. The man might embezzle from the Crown, no doubt but he is not guilty of stupidity. He knows where the power comes from, especially if he was skimming funds that came from the Iron Bank. Or maybe he just thinks he's smarter and quicker then them.

I love that everything is descending on the Lannisters:  religious fanatics that have just become weaponized, a powerful financial institution that just pulled its support, a winter that, due to war, virtually no one could prepare for (and if the throne loses the support of the Tyrells and their food, the capitol is really screwed), and the Sand Snakes.  Oh, glorious chaos!  

 

Littlefinger is a crafty fellow, one of his rules to live by is to Keep Your Hands Clean and in the books he's done that successfully.  Varys and Tyrion are the only ones still alive who are on to him on some level.   I think that he obfuscated and misdirected things well enough that even if the Iron Bank sorts out a number of layers of the mess it'll still look like mismanagement by the throne rather than deliberate theft by LIttlefinger.  Forget a second Dance of the Dragons, I'd much rather see the Iron Bank and Littlefinger play cat and mouse with each other.  

 

Petyr does have recent Braavosi ancestry, I wonder how it will factor in to the story (if at all) and whether it will reveal a relationship to the bank.

Edited April 23, 2014 by GreyBunny

[dr pepper]

In our world, Spain started the 1500s with a new flow of bullion from the Americas. It made both the government and a large part of the nobility wasteful to the point that they actually ended up in so much debt to dutch bankers that it affected national policy.

As for the books, the new pope and his People's Crusade is quite capable of stripping every church in the land and compelling the wealthier clergy to give up their goods. After all, serving the Seven is a matter of the heart, not the cost of the accouterments. They could make a dent in the debt faster than anyone else, which gives a big boost to any cadidate they care to support. On the other hand, the church would make some rather onerous demands like compensating the peasants and punishing soldiers for atrocities.

Also, the show completely skips an important part of Littlefinger's strategy, which is to charge fees for everything, especially for out of towners. They aren't particularly large fees, butr they add up.

[Haleth]

Plus he has the string of brothels which appear to be quite popular.  He didn't need to skim money from the treasury, he was making money hand over fist anyway.

I wonder how far the Bank is willing to go to settle debts.  Would they send a faceless child to Kings Landing to deal with Cersei?

[mac123x]

I wonder what the Bank will do when they find out about Aegon VI, or Dany (if she can ever get out of Slaver’s Bay).  “Stannis, about those loans we promised… yeah, these two Targaryen kids have a better claim on the throne than you do, and are much more likeable than you, plus dragons, so, well, um, have fun at the Wall.  Bye!”

Note regarding Petyr: I would be seriously shocked if he does not have some agreement with the Braavosi bankers. The man might embezzle from the Crown, no doubt but he is not guilty of stupidity. He knows where the power comes from, especially if he was skimming funds that came from the Iron Bank. Or maybe he just thinks he's smarter and quicker then them.

I doubt Petyr stole anything from the Iron Bank.  When Tyrion took over as Master of Coin, he went through Petyr’s book thoroughly, and noted that Petyr was lending out money (with interest) to a lot of people, merchants, etc.  If anything, Petyr was pocketing some or all of the interest from those loans.

It wouldn’t surprise me if he intentionally set up the Crown’s massive debt to the Iron Bank as part of his “chaos is a ladder” strategy.  He built and sustained a financial house of cards, and when he was ready he let it collapse on purpose.

[ZoeT]

Petyr does have recent Braavosi ancestry, I wonder how it will factor in to the story (if at all) and whether it will reveal a relationship to the bank.

I thought Petyr has some Braavosi in his blood myself, but was not entirely sure. Memory is not what is used to be LOL

 

To the quote all the way at the bottom (sorry, not sure why it won't let me write after I quote you): I think you might of misunderstood me. Or maybe not. I'm not sure, but just to be clear, here's what I meant.

 

I don't think Petyr stole from the Iron Bank ad litteram. I do believe that it is entirely possible he did help himself to some of the money that the Crown borrowed from that bank though, monies which once loaned became the Crown's liability.

 

I'd find that very in character with his persona. Why? Because it would leave the unknowing Baratheons/ Lannisters in the Bank's debt, looking like fools for overspending and unable to repay through investing (which it DID happen), and would cause a huge amount of trouble especially if he was savvy enough to do it and erase all traces. As far as I can remember the loans and the dealings with the Braavosi were left to him unchecked in Robert's time. There was not Tywin to contend or answer to as Hand. (And look what he did to John Arryn!)

 

I doubt Petyr stole anything from the Iron Bank.  When Tyrion took over as Master of Coin, he went through Petyr’s book thoroughly, and noted that Petyr was lending out money (with interest) to a lot of people, merchants, etc.  If anything, Petyr was pocketing some or all of the interest from those loans.

[GreyBunny]

It was his great-grandfather (I think) who immigrated to Westeros.

 

His brothels make a fair amount of money but that doesn't mean that he doesn't want even more, especially since he's effectively the lord paramount to two regions and is within striking distance of a third.  

 

One of his two greatest talents is his financial wizardry.  If he is going to destroy those he resents and hates, one of the ways he's going to do it by screwing with their books, which is what he did to the Crown.  He may not strictly need the money but he's going to take it as an extra "fuck you" to his enemies.  As noted upthread, I agree that he set things up to collapse intentionally and pocketed some cash in the process.

Edited April 24, 2014 by GreyBunny

[joliefaire]

This is pretty clever.  Stannis' bank application for a loan.  haha, he lists that cool map table as one of his assets.

 

[Haleth]

Oh, man.  That is great!  I laughed so hard I snorted.  Position: King.  Listing the table as an asset and Davos as a reference.  Brilliant.

[joliefaire]

^ Isn't it funny?  Even the blank form itself is a hoot--Home Raven # and Mobile Raven #, education Citadel and post-Citidel.  Very clever stuff.

 

Here's a map of Braavos, since it seems we'll be visiting there sometime this season.  This map is by the great Other-In-Law, who created a series of these beautiful pictorial maps back in the book-only days before the HBO show was ever thought of.  I can't wait to actually see Braavos!

 

Edited April 26, 2014 by joliefaire

[ZoeT]

Hilarious! That application is insanely hilarious! Did I mention it is HILARIOUS?! LOL

That's three times "hilarious", like Martin likes to do it :P

 

Thank you for the find, Angie! I haven't laughed so hard this week at anything GoT, what with the Cersei/Jaime scene that flamed the net and lunch conversations...

[joliefaire]

To add to the awesomeness of the Iron Bank, it has its own Facebook page!  Who knew??

 

https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Iron-Bank-Of-Braavos/286587461445889

[Independent George]

This is speculation, but I think the Iron Bank's power largely stems from the fact that there is very little hard currency in Westeros - most large transactions are barter-related, and run on credit. That's fine as far as it goes, but once you get into a wartime situation, people start demanding payment in cash... which very few people really have. Merchants can lend, but as they're subject to the people they're lending to, there's a huge risk of nonpayment for them. The Iron Bank, however, is big and powerful enough to have sway over even the Crown. 

 

I doubt Petyr stole anything from the Iron Bank.  When Tyrion took over as Master of Coin, he went through Petyr’s book thoroughly, and noted that Petyr was lending out money (with interest) to a lot of people, merchants, etc.  If anything, Petyr was pocketing some or all of the interest from those loans.

 

I'm not certain Littlefinger was skimming per se; I think it more likely that he mostly used his power as Master of Coin to take out leveraged investments, financed via rate arbitrage. This being Littlefinger, I also assume he was at the top of a chain of bribes, with merchants and nobles paying him for the privilege of borrowing money at usurious rates. There's less outright graft, but if he's smart, it's much more self-sustaining than just stealing money and hoping nobody notices. This is mostly speculation, but I think his scheme basically went like this:

 

1. Merchant A wants a royal monopoly on selling [insert commodity here] in King's Landing.

2. Littlefinger approves the royal charter in exchange for a substantial bribe.

3. The cost of the bribe forces Merchant A to take out a loan to cover the cost of buying, transporting, and selling aforementioned goods in Westeros. 

4. As an individual of unknown means, Merchant A would get charged 15% by the Iron Bank of Braavos.

5. With royal backing, Littlefinger can secure loans from the Iron Bank at 5%.

6. With a royal monopoly, Merchant A has an insider advantage, and can thus be charged 10% by Crown.

 

Obviously, I made up those numbers, that's roughly what Littlefinger's game appears to be in the books based on Tyrion's inspection of the account books in SOS.

[joliefaire]

So, the Lannisters are broke!  The gold mines have stopped producing, the Crown is millions in debt to the IBB.  All of which makes the Tyrells now the richest House in Westeros.  Its weird that IMO anyway, the whole Lannister clan seems suddenly diminished because of this.  Almighty Tywin suddenly less almighty, Golden Boy Jaime suddenly now just another knight, and a crippled one at that, and Tyrion, the wine and whore lovin' playboy no longer able to breeze through life talking about the phrase 'rich as a Lannister.'  (If he ever gets out of jail, of course).  All this, plus Stannis heading to the IBB to negotiate a loan to rebuild his forces, and the tectonic plates of power begin to shift.  What was it they used to say during the Watergate scandal?  Follow the money.  This is going to get interesting.

[Independent George]

The Lannisters aren't necessarily broke - they just can't mint currency to escape a jam like they used to. And the money they lent to the crown is basically a secured debt - they're not likely to default on a loan to themselves, so they can funnel money from the rest of the kingdoms to pay their own usurious interest rates. Finally, as the victors of the war, they're in position to demand reparations in exchange for the defeated rebels to retain their titles.

Wealth is good, but capital is better. Capital is what keeps you wealthy when the gold runs out - something Tywin seems smart enough to understand.

[Mya Stone]

Reposting my thought from the episode thread: 

I'm beginning to wonder if Arya's ultimate Faceless Man mission is being telegraphed with the information given about the Iron Bank. We know they won't be happy until their debt is paid...and if they're in it with Stannis, could they send a FM to assassinate the Lannister crown-holder? I know it's been discussed over on Westeros (in book threads) ad naseum but I'm really thinking that it may happen. 

[joliefaire]

^  This.  I also saw a post (I believe at Westeros, but who knows, I browse so many GoT sites!) speculating that as a result of the meeting between Stannis and 'Mycroft', the Bank will send a Faceless Man to throw Balon off that bridge, in order to help Stannis by getting the Ironborn out of the North and scurrying back to their islands to deal with the fall-out.  Gives Stannis one less trouble-making group to deal with.  And, IIRC, in the books a FM did throw Balon off the bridge, though I don't recall that we ever learned who sent the FM or why (other than the speculation that it might have been Balon's brother).  Anyway, we should know more about all this after next week's meeting at the Bank, where we'll see whether Balon and the Ironborn even come up in the conversation.

[Haleth]

Never mind.  I'm starting to repeat myself.

Edited May 7, 2014 by Haleth

[GreyBunny]

The FM are supposed to kill only those they don't know.  Arya knows Cersei, Tommen, and others who still live in the Red Keep.  If she does kill them it will be of her own volition and not because she was assigned to.  (Though she may be assigned to kill someone else in King's Landing and decide to try for a few bonus kills).  I don't know that the IB would send a FM after Cersei since Stannis is now responsible for paying back the Crown's debt when/if he takes the throne, nor do I think they killed Balon on their own just to help Stannis.  They're going to get their payment, either from Stannis or the Lannisters or someone else so I don't think they have a vested interest in helping one party or another on their own.  

 

Euron claimed to have a dragon egg and then throw it overboard in frustration.  I'm among those who think he used the egg to buy a FM death for Balon.  I also think it's plausible Jaqen is snooping around the Citadel trying to find that rare copy of "The Death of Dragons" in order to find out how to kill Dany's or perhaps even hatch the egg from Euron.

Edited May 8, 2014 by GreyBunny

[OakGoblinFly]

I wonder what the Bank will do when they find out about Aegon VI, or Dany (if she can ever get out of Slaver’s Bay).  “Stannis, about those loans we promised… yeah, these two Targaryen kids have a better claim on the throne than you do, and are much more likeable than you, plus dragons, so, well, um, have fun at the Wall.  Bye!”

 

 

 

But do they truly?  I would think that once Robert overthrew the Targaryens that Aegon and/or Dany's claim were no stronger than any other usurper.  Now, whether people will choose to follow a Targaryen out of a sense of history or "anyone is better than this civil war crap" thinking remains to be seen.

[GreyBunny]

We finally got to meet Mycroft, yay!  

[Hanahope]

I'm hoping that bringing the IB into the show is a message that it was behind Balon's death and what happened in Oldtown (tho I think there has to be another player in Oldtown too, perhaps the Maesters).  I know there has to be a third party involved, so the IB, wanting its money back, is a good choice.