“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[DeeDee79]

3 minutes ago, Katy M said:

There is not one of them who could have actually stopped DEan from saying yes.  He was literally two seconds away from doing so when he changed his mind. He changed it.  Nobody else.

Which is why I said YMMV. I didn't see it that way but I can understand if you do.

[catrox14]

25 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

True, but it wasn't like he did it for kicks. He was forced into it in order to save the world, which he was in a position to have to do because of Mary's deal (and because of his own mistakes, but without Mary's deal, it would never have been an issue).

I never said he did it for kicks nor implied it.

My beef with the writing was that Berens saying Sam got possessed by Lucifer, implies he had nothing to do with it happening. It implies that he was just hanging out when suddenly he got possessed like a demon possessing someone. 

And yes I'm being nit picky on the writing. Berens could have made it more truthful and even more heroic for Dean to say "Sam had to let Lucifer possess him to save the world".  I mean maybe Dean's brain was tripping so he just shortcut it to "Sam got possessed".  The writing made it seem like Sam had nothing to do with the events that led up to him being Lucifer's vessel. 

 As @DeeDee79 reminded, Mary was always going to make that deal because the angels wanted it. Michael erased her memory so she couldn't make a different choice. 

So, yes it wouldn't have happened if Mary didn't make the deal but Mary was always going to make the deal, so at this point, I'm not even sure why anyone should hate Mary for the deal, if she was fated to do it. I'll just hate her for her crappy treatment of the boys in s12. LOL 

5 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I don't know what you mean by "traded his existence" for John. That's not what happened at all.  She didn't get rid of Sam in order to save John. Had she not made the deal Sam wouldn't have existed at all.  Unless that's what you meant.  She traded John's death for Sam's existence? But, why would Sam be mad about that?  Does he wish he doesn't exist?  

Sorry, bad wording on my part.

I meant that she traded Sam having a "normal" life and not being a pawn in Azazel's game if she hadn't said yes to Azazel. A normal existence vs a shitty life where he thinks he's tainted and a monster and all the other things that happened.

I guess I see where Dean gets his recklessness from with him making snap decisions without thinking through the possible consequences like with the MoC. I don't count his crossroads deal because he knew what that consequence would be.

[DittyDotDot]

25 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

As @DeeDee79 reminded, Mary was always going to make that deal because the angels wanted it. Michael erased her memory so she couldn't make a different choice. 

So, yes it wouldn't have happened if Mary didn't make the deal but Mary was always going to make the deal, so at this point, I'm not even sure why anyone should hate Mary for the deal, if she was fated to do it. I'll just hate her for her crappy treatment of the boys in s12. LOL 

I think the deal isn't really an issue to either Sam nor Dean--they both get why she did it and they both have made similar choices in the past--but it's the aftermath of the deal that Dean was angry about. She knowingly made a deal with a demon and then hid away from that for 10 years. If she'd at least done one thing to protect them, I think Dean would see it differently, but she didn't. She ignored it and then lied to him as a 4 year old and told him she was going to protect him. And, I don't think Dean had been walking around angry about it forever, but it's something that started to fester in him with Mary's resurrection and subsequent running away from them...and then lying to them and the using them. I think it was that moment when Dean sees that Mary had always run away and lied to him that he just realizes he hates her, but he doesn't want to hate her.

Edited November 19, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

44 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

Because she didn't do so knowingly? Sam wasn't even born at the time. Mary had no idea what the demon was going to come for; she just knew that if she didn't agree to it, John was dead. It was a stupid, reckless thing to do, but it wasn't a conscious choice of John over Sam, or even John over "hypothetical unborn baby." And it was the kind of reckless that I think most people would find somewhat sympathetic, and that Sam and Dean, in particular, would absolutely understand. 

Either one hating Mary doesn't really make sense IMO. That's why for me it's lazy writing that shortcuts too much of their lives and history.

Dean wasn't born at the she made the deal, so why would Dean hate her for the decision especially after he went back in time and understood what she did and that he could also relate to her reckless decision making?  Dean had a lousy childhood because John burdened Dean with protecting Sam. That's on John's choices as a parent. Not Mary's. To me Dean having latent hatred for John's choices in parenting make a lot more sense than having hatred for Mary for a deal that he knew she was always going to make. Just sloppy writing on that whole thing that conveniently ignored Dean and Mary's past encounters

With Sam, if Mary never makes the deal, Azazel doesn't bleed into Baby Sam's mouth. Sam doesn't later think he's a monster who will turn dark side; who has to worry his brother might have to kill him if they can't save him. I dunno to me that's a pretty big thing that might result in latent resentment and hatred towards the person making the deal. 

But again, for me, Sam and Dean had both been shown to have made peace with Mary's death and deal making respectively so the whole "I hate you for the deal" was just far too contrived and unbelievable for this viewer.

The only good that came out of it for me was the on screen canon acknowledgment that Dean was a parentified child.

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

nd, I don't think Dean had been walking around angry about it forever, but it's something that started to fester in him with Mary's resurrection and subsequent running away from them...and then lying to them and the using them. I think it was that moment when Dean sees that Mary had always run away and lied to him that he just realizes he hates her, but he doesn't want to hate her.

And that's where the writing failed for me. If Dean had said he hated Mary for bailing on them as adults, and her recent abandoning them triggered his childhood abandonment issues, or that he hated her for dying, which kids do sometimes, especially since he was  4 when he watched her burn to death (and apparently still dreams about given the s13 premiere) but not hating her for a deal he already forgave her for.

For me it just did nothing but narrate Sam's life in shortform "Look, Mom, how much Sam suffered because of your deal" juxtaposed with Sam leading his warriors into battle. Pfft. 

I hate that Jensen's great work is wasted on IMO, a badly written scene but that's part for the course in this show LOL JMHO YMMV

[Res]

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Either one hating Mary doesn't really make sense IMO. That's why for me it's lazy writing that shortcuts too much of their lives and history.

Dean wasn't born at the she made the deal, so why would Dean hate her for the decision especially after he went back in time and understood what she did and that he could also relate to her reckless decision making?  Dean had a lousy childhood because John burdened Dean with protecting Sam. That's on John's choices as a parent. Not Mary's. To me Dean having latent hatred for John's choices in parenting make a lot more sense than having hatred for Mary for a deal that he knew she was always going to make. Just sloppy writing on that whole thing that conveniently ignored Dean and Mary's past encounters

With Sam, if Mary never makes the deal, Azazel doesn't bleed into Baby Sam's mouth. Sam doesn't later think he's a monster who will turn dark side; who has to worry his brother might have to kill him if they can't save him. I dunno to me that's a pretty big thing that might result in latent resentment and hatred towards the person making the deal. 

But again, for me, Sam and Dean had both been shown to have made peace with Mary's death and deal making respectively so the whole "I hate you for the deal" was just far too contrived and unbelievable for this viewer.

The only good that came out of it for me was the on screen canon acknowledgment that Dean was a parentified child.

Exactly. I remember thinking "WTF?!!" at that "I hate you" dialogue. It was actually even more stupid than the Sacrifice speech which was beyond stupid to begin with.

[ahrtee]

4 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think the deal isn't really an issue to either Sam nor Dean--they both get why she did it and they both have made similar choices in the past--but it's the aftermath of the deal that Dean was angry about. She knowingly made a deal with a demon and then hid away from that for 10 years. If she'd at least done one thing to protect them, I think Dean would see it differently, but she didn't. She ignored it and then lied to him as a 4 year old and told him she was going to protect him. And, I don't think Dean had been walking around angry about it forever, but it's something that started to fester in him with Mary's resurrection and subsequent running away from them...and then lying to them and the using them. I think it was that moment when Dean sees that Mary had always run away and lied to him that he just realizes he hates her, but he doesn't want to hate her.

Michael mind-wiped both Mary and John, way back before Dean was born.  That was canon before s.12 retconned her into being a hunter while Dean was young.  It's possible that he only removed the memories of Sam and Dean's visits, but I think it's also likely that he removed the memory of Azazel and the deal as well, or else she *would* have set some wards or at least been suspicious when the lights started fritzing.  After all, if the angels wanted Sam born (and tainted) so they could fulfill their prophecy, they wouldn't want their vessel's mother to prevent it.  I think she didn't remember till she was face-to-face with Azazel at the end.

Michael *told* Dean that he was wiping both John and Mary's memories, so he knew that.  But it doesn't remove the feeling of betrayal/bitterness he might still have, especially since she *did* make the deal in the first place; but he might still feel guilty about blaming her for events that were out of her control/she wouldn't have expected, like the reason for Azazel's visit or John turning into drill sergeant.  IMO that would make that "I hate you...and I love you" dichotomy even more powerful than just trying to forgive her *just* because she's his mother.  

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Res said:

Exactly. I remember thinking "WTF?!!" at that "I hate you" dialogue. It was actually even more stupid than the Sacrifice speech which was beyond stupid to begin with.

I feel that was shock value writing TBH.

It was supposed to make us react and say "OH NO!!!  Dean hates the woman that apparently had put up on a pedestal!!", which I still don't know when that happened  given his past encounters with Mary where he saw her fall off whatever pedestal he had her on before that.

Sam not ever knowing Mary, making up things in his mind to fill in the biggest blank of all? Going by John's possible pedestal putting of Mary post death? That I can see.

Dean holding on to the few happy memories of PBJ and soup and hugs? Sure I can see him wanting that all his life because it got ripped away from him so awfully. But that's just happy memories not idealizing her. I mean for Dean he knew her for exactly that at 4 years old. Why they had Mary be all "Well I don't cook just so you know" and have Dean hurt by that was also contrived writing IMO. Him being surprised as an adult that she didn't cook, yes I can see that. Him being HURT because she didn't...I don't get that at all to be honest.

Boy I really did hate that whole Mary arc for Dean. It just did nothing for either character whatsover.

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I meant that she traded Sam having a "normal" life and not being a pawn in Azazel's game if she hadn't said yes to Azazel. A normal existence vs a shitty life where he thinks he's tainted and a monster and all the other things that happened.

If she hadn't said yes, he wouldn't have had a normal existence.  He wouldn't have existed at all.  

[Aeryn13]

I remember when a really popular theory for Mary was "maybe she came back soulless?" That most certainly wasn`t the intent of the writing. I do not think Mary was supposed to come across as so self-involved and ice-bitchy. They probably thought they were making up for it with all the badass "so kewl" pimping they did. 

That you had Lady Deadeyes of all people come in and have to tell her that things weren`t all roses and ponies with how John brought the kids up and Mary looked dumbfounded? OMG, no excuse. I expected that particular issue to be brought up in the first third of the Season, for the character to learn it, be conflicted about it, maybe heartbroken, maybe horrified, at least have a reaction to it. Instead, it flew right over her fucking head.

When Dean made that angry remark about not having been a kid, she was like "yeah, whatevs, whiner".  Didn`t know and didn`t care apparently.

And for all the lipservice to "how can I face Sam", she seemed to face him just fine when they were together. In that she treated him like garbage, too.

This whole scene with the "I hate you...I forgive you", apart from being annoyed that it was Dean`s part and yet was solely focused on Sam`s hard life, I was even more annoyed with the stupid goal-post-moving there. The character needed redemption for Season 12, not the stupid deal. And she hadn`t earned forgiveness at this point at all.

[catrox14]

Just now, ahrtee said:

; but he might still feel guilty about blaming her for events that were out of her control/she wouldn't have expected, like the reason for Azazel's visit or John turning into drill sergeant.  IMO that would make that "I hate you...and I love you" dichotomy even more powerful than just trying to forgive her *just* because she's his mother.  

If Dean had not already been shown to have forgiven her, which I think he did in s4 and then seeing in s5 that it was fated to happen, I wouldn't have much complaint about the "i hate you and I love you ' thing. If

I mean Berens didn't even have Dean be MAD at John for the drill sargeant crap. He defended John to Mary when literally 20 episodes prior Dean was side eying Mary when she said "John was a great father". To me that is bad writing when there was no through line for Dean to have switched from that to him defending John in a way. 

Dean had major issues with John when he shouted at himself in s3 about how shitty John treated him. But Dean still wore his coat and listened to his music so he still couldn't admit to himself that he hated John on some level. If Dean dreamwalking with Mary in s12 was him spitting truth bombs, then him dreamwalking in s3 should be considered truth bombs about John, that I think still exist for Dean. JMHO

Honestly, when S13 began I thought maybe they were going to have Dean go on a vengeance thing with Jack to parallel John's vengeance with Azazel because of Cas and Mary especially when Sam jabbed at Dean about John's act,  I was like "Um...Sam....it did work because Dean protected you but it also fucked up Dean in pretty major ways, but whatever"

Maybe we'll still get something with John and Dean where in he gets to give him the hatred speech, cause I don't think Dean has resolved anything about John. JMHO.

4 minutes ago, Katy M said:

If she hadn't said yes, he wouldn't have had a normal existence.  He wouldn't have existed at all.  

Yes Sam wouldn't exist at all and they were fine with never having been born back in s5. I guess I don't understand where our disagreement is? I said already that I used "existence" when that's not what I meant. 

[Myrelle]

5 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I remember when a really popular theory for Mary was "maybe she came back soulless?" That most certainly wasn`t the intent of the writing. I do not think Mary was supposed to come across as so self-involved and ice-bitchy. They probably thought they were making up for it with all the badass "so kewl" pimping they did. 

That you had Lady Deadeyes of all people come in and have to tell her that things weren`t all roses and ponies with how John brought the kids up and Mary looked dumbfounded? OMG, no excuse. I expected that particular issue to be brought up in the first third of the Season, for the character to learn it, be conflicted about it, maybe heartbroken, maybe horrified, at least have a reaction to it. Instead, it flew right over her fucking head.

When Dean made that angry remark about not having been a kid, she was like "yeah, whatevs, whiner".  Didn`t know and didn`t care apparently.

And for all the lipservice to "how can I face Sam", she seemed to face him just fine when they were together. In that she treated him like garbage, too.

This whole scene with the "I hate you...I forgive you", apart from being annoyed that it was Dean`s part and yet was solely focused on Sam`s hard life, I was even more annoyed with the stupid goal-post-moving there. The character needed redemption for Season 12, not the stupid deal. And she hadn`t earned forgiveness at this point at all.

+ 1000 to this post.

They completely screwed up Mary's resurrection to the point that between the writing and Sam Smith's cold fish routine, the character has pretty much been ruined for me.

I wish she would set up house in the AU and never come back; but alas, I know she will. Blech.

[DittyDotDot]

36 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

And that's where the writing failed for me. If Dean had said he hated Mary for bailing on them as adults, and her recent abandoning them triggered his childhood abandonment issues, or that he hated her for dying, which kids do sometimes [...]

Granted he didn't literally say those exact words, but I think that's exactly what Dean was saying and what the scene was all about.

[gonzosgirrl]

3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

But, Heaven is huge and vast with millions and millions of souls, I wouldn't expect Ash to be able to find them all. Plus, Mary and John may have been granted a special place that wasn't easy to get to like Pamela or Jo and Ellen. I think they purposely left it ambiguous back in S5 because they weren't sure themselves back then. 

They left it ambiguous in S5, but S12 Mary says she was in heaven with her boys, with no mention of John. I suppose it could be argued that since she didn't specifically mention John being with them, it doesn't mean he wasn't, but it seems a stretch. So either her heaven didn't include the father of her children for reasons, or he was never there at all.

As for Dean hating/forgiving Mary - I would've been skeptical about him hating her before S12, as the Mary we were shown throughout the run of the series bears little resemblance to the character Dabb brought us. Pre-S12, we saw a woman who made a horrible choice to save her lover, without knowing what the consequences might be. We saw a woman who wanted nothing more than to be out of the life and raise her kids in peace. Dabb's Mary, however? Yeah, I can see why he hated her. This Mary scoffed at her son's pain (you're not a child), abandoned them to 'find herself' by teaming up with the organization who abducted and tortured one son, and actively tried to murder the other, but worst of all, is revealed to have been hunting long after Dean was born. So leaving John in the dark and her home and kids unprotected when she knew something was going to happen was reprehensible at the least. This Mary deserved Dean's hate - his forgiveness, not so much.

 

ETA: and others said much of this much better as I was trying to type this post on my phone, which hates this site as much as the site hates it.

Edited November 19, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I suppose it could be argued that since she didn't specifically mention John being with them, it doesn't mean he wasn't, but it seems a stretch. So either her heaven didn't include the father of her children for reasons, or he was never there at all.

Well, if they were "Cupided" they probably weren't soul mates. And we were told in Dark Side of the Moon that only soul mates share. So, he could still be there in his own Heaven.  I'm inclined to believe that he is in Heaven, because where else would "light" take him.  

 

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

is revealed to have been hunting long after Dean was born. 

Don't get me started on that ridiculous retcon.

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Granted he didn't literally say those exact words, but I think that's exactly what Dean was saying and what the scene was all about

That's what the scene started to be about which I was so hopeful would remain that way. But then it switched pretty quickly to the end game being about Sam NOT Dean or John.

Quote

DEAN: You left us.

Alone.

(Baby Sam is cooing)

'Cause Dad was just a shell.

(Dean approaches Mary at the crib)

His perfect wife? Gone.

Our perfect Mom, the perfect family... was gone.

And I... I had to be... more than just a brother.

I had to be a father and I had to be a mother, to keep him safe.

And that wasn't fair. And I couldn't do it.

And you wanna know what that was like?

Up to this point ^^^^^, I believed it was about Dean but it switched to being ABOUT Sam, not Dean at this point below 

 

Quote

(Dean walks around Mary to look at her directly and she turns away)

They killed the girl that he loved.

He got possessed by Lucifer.

They tortured him in Hell. And he lost his soul.

His soul.

(View of baby Sam cooing)

All because of you.

All of it was because of you.

(In the MOL bunker, the machines are beeping as Mary and Dean remain in their dream state. Mary has tears running down her face as Toni looks on)

DEAN (in the dream state)

I hate you.

(Deans voice breaks as tears run down his face)

I hate you.

And I love you.

'Cause I can't – I can't help it.

You're my Mom.

And I understand...'cause I have made deals to save the ones I love more than once.

To me it was just one big bait and switch but if I'm magnanimous then it was trying to be about both but ended up mostly being about Sam from Dean's POV.

So for me the end game is what the scene was about. 

[gonzosgirrl]

7 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Well, if they were "Cupided" they probably weren't soul mates. And we were told in Dark Side of the Moon that only soul mates share. So, he could still be there in his own Heaven.  I'm inclined to believe that he is in Heaven, because where else would "light" take him.  

Kinda makes it extra-sucky that John spent the rest of his life and sacrificed his children's childhood to avenging her death, doesn't it?

[DittyDotDot]

17 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

They left it ambiguous in S5, but S12 Mary says she was in heaven with her boys, with no mention of John. I suppose it could be argued that since she didn't specifically mention John being with them, it doesn't mean he wasn't, but it seems a stretch. So either her heaven didn't include the father of her children for reasons, or he was never there at all.

I was only responding to the assertion that previous to S12 it was stated neither John or Mary were in Heaven. I disagree that it was ever stated one way or the other.

But, why would John be sharing the same Heaven as Mary? Heaven is a place you spend reliving your memories alone. Only soulmates are grated joint "rooms", so I wouldn't have expected Mary to have been with John since the angels had to get them together to begin with.

11 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That's what the scene started to be about which I was so hopeful would remain that way. But then it switched pretty quickly to the end game being about Sam NOT Dean or John.

I understand you think the scene turned into a scene about Sam, but that's not my read of it. IMO, the entire scene was about Dean realizing that Mary was never who he thought she was and coming to terms with that and accepting her anyway. I think what he said about Sam was a pointed statement to how Mary had failed Dean by not even trying. At least he tried to protect and save Sam, even if he couldn't; Mary didn't even bother to try and protect him like she promised she would.

Edited November 19, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[gonzosgirrl]

3 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I was only responding to the assertion that previous to S12 it was stated neither John or Mary were in Heaven. I disagree that it was ever stated one way or the other.

But, why would John be sharing the same Heaven as Mary? Heaven is a place you spend reliving your memories alone. Only soulmates are grated joint "rooms", so I wouldn't have expected Mary to have been with John since the angels had to get them together to begin with.

 

As I responded above, that just makes it sadder than John then spent the rest of his life avenging her. But the shared/soulmate heaven thing breaks down here. If Heaven is about reliving your best moments, why wouldn't the man you loved be part of it, even if you weren't 'soulmates'. I'd think her "John" would still be part of her ideal life with her children, even if real John had another heaven of his own.

[DittyDotDot]

9 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

As I responded above, that just makes it sadder than John then spent the rest of his life avenging her. But the shared/soulmate heaven thing breaks down here. If Heaven is about reliving your best moments, why wouldn't the man you loved be part of it, even if you weren't 'soulmates'. I'd think her "John" would still be part of her ideal life with her children, even if real John had another heaven of his own.

I would guess the "memorex" version of John was there. I'm not sure why it's assumed he's not other than Mary didn't specifically say he was. She also didn't mention any other memories she may have spent time with--like say her parents or her first boyfriend or... . Just because she didn't specifically mention John doesn't indicate to me that there wasn't some version of John in Heaven with her and her "boys".

[DeeDee79]

12 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

If Heaven is about reliving your best moments, why wouldn't the man you loved be part of it, even if you weren't 'soulmates'. I'd think her "John" would still be part of her ideal life with her children, even if real John had another heaven of his own.

This is very true and it's also why I was confused when Bobby's Heaven didn't include his wife. Granted she could have been part of his Heaven that we weren't shown but he told Sam he was "drinking and reading the classics". It doesn't make sense to me but again that could be said about much of the show's canon.

[MysteryGuest]

Had Mary embraced her sons upon her return, and shown even the slightest inclination to get to know them and be around them, Dean would never have felt the need to tell her what he did.  I think he was just pushed to the limit when he realized that she wasn't really locked in her mind, but was actually choosing to stay there.  I'm not sure how much Dean really blamed either of his parents for what happened to him and Sam, but that doesn't change the fact that they had a pretty horrible time, and sometimes you just need to unburden yourself.  Dean had sucked it up for a damn long time.  Mary's decision to abandon them again for her make believe world was all it took for it all to come pouring out, fair or not.

This is the problem with changing the basics of a 12 year old story.  Mary made a deal with the YED, but it couldn't have been more vague, and she was in a state of shock over the deaths of John and both of her parents. He said he'd give her John back, as long as she didn't interrupt him 10 years later.  He never mentioned her future children, in fact he told her that no one would get hurt if she left him alone.  It was naive of her, but I got the impression from our first encounter with Mary that she was a bit naive.  Yes, she was a hunter, but I think their experience with demons was a bit limited.  The reality is, there's nothing Mary could really have done to change the way things played out.  If she hadn't woken up, and Azazel had managed to come and go without being detected, who knows how long it would have been until Mary started to suspect that something was wrong with Sam.  By bringing Mary back as this hunter extraordinaire, it makes her appear much more guilty for making her deal than I honestly ever thought she was.

[gonzosgirrl]

7 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I would guess the "memorex" version of John was there. I'm not sure why it's assumed he's not other than Mary didn't specifically say he was. She also didn't mention any other memories she may have spent time with--like say her parents or her first boyfriend or... . Just because she didn't specifically mention John doesn't indicate to me that there wasn't some version of John in Heaven with her and her "boys".

I don't think we can equate John with any other 'maybe' in her Heaven. He is their father and the other reason for all that happened - I think he would have come up in the conversation. And since her 'babies' were there with her, I don't think first boyfriends enter into it. YMMV and clearly does.

Edited November 19, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[MysteryGuest]

4 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

This is very true and it's also why I was confused when Bobby's Heaven didn't include his wife. Granted she could have been part of his Heaven that we weren't shown but he told Sam he was "drinking and reading the classics". It doesn't make sense to me but again that could be said about much of the show's canon.

I don't think any of this is deliberate omission.  I just think they showed Bobby doing what we know he liked to do...drink and read about Tori Spelling.  It was meant to be a humorous moment, IMO.  I can't imagine Bobby choosing to do that for all eternity, so maybe individual heavens change based on the desires of the individual.  One moment you're with a loved one, the next moment you're climbing Mt. Everest...who knows.  My guess is there's no way the show was going to pay another actor to play Bobby's wife for the short scene of his heaven.

[DittyDotDot]

3 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I don't think any of this is deliberate omission.  I just think they showed Bobby doing what we know he liked to do...drink and read about Tori Spelling.  It was meant to be a humorous moment, IMO.  I can't imagine Bobby choosing to do that for all eternity, so maybe individual heavens change based on the desires of the individual.  One moment you're with a loved one, the next moment you're climbing Mt. Everest...who knows.  My guess is there's no way the show was going to pay another actor to play Bobby's wife for the short scene of his heaven.

Judging by how Sam and Dean were jumping from memory to memory, I think of each person's heaven as a holodeck where you can make whatever you want happen. So, yeah, I can't imagine Bobby was sitting around reading the same book for a year, but that's what he was doing the moment Sam broke through to talk to him. I expect he probably conjured up a memory of Rufus from time to time, or watched a movie with Sam and Dean, or went on a picnic with his wife, or... .

Edited November 19, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[DeeDee79]

1 minute ago, MysteryGuest said:

I don't think any of this is deliberate omission.  I just think they showed Bobby doing what we know he liked to do...drink and read about Tori Spelling.  It was meant to be a humorous moment, IMO.  I can't imagine Bobby choosing to do that for all eternity, so maybe individual heavens change based on the desires of the individual.  One moment you're with a loved one, the next moment you're climbing Mt. Everest...who knows.  My guess is there's no way the show was going to pay another actor to play Bobby's wife for the short scene of his heaven.

I understand that which is why I said that she could have been there and we just weren't shown. She was an important part of Bobby's life and he was clearly regretful when speaking about what might have been if she hadn't been possessed or if he had gone along with her desire to have kids. I just think that a mention would have made sense.

[MysteryGuest]

5 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I understand that which is why I said that she could have been there and we just weren't shown. She was an important part of Bobby's life and he was clearly regretful when speaking about what might have been if she hadn't been possessed or if he had gone along with her desire to have kids. I just think that a mention would have made sense.

I don't disagree that it would have been nice to hear, just so we could be happy for Bobby, but this show has a knack for not giving us the emotional moments we'd like to see.

[catrox14]

14 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I would guess the "memorex" version of John was there. I'm not sure why it's assumed he's not other than Mary didn't specifically say he was. She also didn't mention any other memories she may have spent time with--like say her parents or her first boyfriend or... . Just because she didn't specifically mention John doesn't indicate to me that there wasn't some version of John in Heaven with her and her "boys".

To me, the message being communicated by her never mentioning him being in Heaven with her, is because he was not. I can't think of a good or bad storytelling reason for her to not mention it especially when she and Dean talked about John in 12.02. 

[DeeDee79]

Just now, MysteryGuest said:

I don't disagree that it would have been nice to hear, just so we could be happy for Bobby, but this show has a knack for not giving us the emotional moments we'd like to see.

That's definitely an understatement and I totally agree.

[catrox14]

15 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I understand that which is why I said that she could have been there and we just weren't shown. She was an important part of Bobby's life and he was clearly regretful when speaking about what might have been if she hadn't been possessed or if he had gone along with her desire to have kids. I just think that a mention would have made sense.

I can see why she might not be in his Heaven. She seemed to hate him before she died even before she was possessed and he had to kill her. She was pissed that he didn't want kids and never told her that until after they were married.  I'm not sure why Bobby would want to be reminded of all that for all eternity.

[MysteryGuest]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I can see why she might not be in his Heaven. She seemed to hate him before she died even before she was possessed and he had to kill her. She was pissed that he didn't want kids and never told her that until after they were married.  I'm not sure why Bobby would want to be reminded of all that for all eternity.

But Bobby did love her, and if Heaven is what we make it, then I could see him wanting to be with her.  In his Heaven, she wouldn't hate him and they could have 6 kids.  They've never been terribly clear about just how Heaven works, so who knows.

[Katy M]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I can see why she might not be in his Heaven. She seemed to hate him before she died even before she was possessed and he had to kill her. She was pissed that he didn't want kids and never told her that until after they were married.  I'm not sure why Bobby would want to be reminded of all that for all eternity.

Wow.  She wanted kids and made that known before they got married. Bobby didn't see fit to tell her that he didn't and was apparently just putting her off for years (?) and she is justifiably upset about that, and you accuse her of hating him?  That's a bit extreme.

Just now, MysteryGuest said:

But Bobby did love her, and if Heaven is what we make it, then I could see him wanting to be with her.  In his Heaven, she wouldn't hate him and they could have 6 kids.  They've never been terribly clear about just how Heaven works, so who knows.

In Dark Side of the Moon they said it's just memories.  So, if they didn't have 6 kids on earth, they wouldn't have 6 kids on Heaven.  I'm sure that Bobby did have memory time with Karen in Heaven.  He just didn't happen to be at the moment we saw him there.  Sam and Dean were cycling through memories fairly randomly, so there's no reason to think that it doesn't happen that way for everyone, or at least some other people.  

[DeeDee79]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I can see why she might not be in his Heaven. She seemed to hate him before she died even before she was possessed and he had to kill her. She was pissed that he didn't want kids and never told her that until after they were married.  I'm not sure why Bobby would want to be reminded of all that for all eternity.

But that was before she came back from the dead and he was clearly ecstatic that she was back which tells me that he just wanted to be with her again. And if Heaven is supposed to be your best memories why would he replay her anger over kids for all eternity?

[catrox14]

Just now, Katy M said:

Wow.  She wanted kids and made that known before they got married. Bobby didn't see fit to tell her that he didn't and was apparently just putting her off for years (?) and she is justifiably upset about that, and you accuse her of hating him?  That's a bit extreme.

 

That's a pretty big betrayal for Bobby to have never told her that he didn't want kids until after they got married and so if she hated him, he wouldn't want her to be in his Heaven.

I'm not really seeing where I've said something particularly extreme. I don't understand the beef with my comment.

[DittyDotDot]

27 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

To me, the message being communicated by her never mentioning him being in Heaven with her, is because he was not. I can't think of a good or bad storytelling reason for her to not mention it especially when she and Dean talked about John in 12.02. 

Well, she only brought up her Heaven the ONE time and that was just before she bolted, so I don't think she really had a chance to fully discuss what all her Heaven entailed. If Heaven is just a trip down memory lane, her memories of the boys would have John in them too. I just can't see how she could not have had some version of John in the 12 years she spent in Heaven if she was spending time in her memories of her boys like she said.

 

ETA: Actually, thinking more on this, didn't she say she missed John...she missed her boys? Doesn't that indicate that there was some version of John in Heaven with her and "her boys"?

16 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I can see why she might not be in his Heaven. She seemed to hate him before she died even before she was possessed and he had to kill her. She was pissed that he didn't want kids and never told her that until after they were married.  I'm not sure why Bobby would want to be reminded of all that for all eternity.

Yeah, but again, if Heaven is just a trip down memory lane, I can imagine there were plenty of good memories of his wife he might like to revisit.

Edited November 19, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Katy M]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That's a pretty big betrayal for Bobby to have never told her that he didn't want kids until after they got married and so if she hated him, he wouldn't want her to be in his Heaven.

I'm not really seeing where I've said something particularly extreme. I don't understand the beef with my comment.

My "beef" is I don't think she hated him.  I don't think we have any evidence of that. And, Bobby even told Rufus that they didn't have time to get past it.  Not that it was a hopeless case, that she hated him, etc.

[MysteryGuest]

But if Heaven is just memories, then when we see Jimmy welcoming his newly deceased wife, and asking how his daughter Claire is, how does that work?  

I'm not sure that Bobby's wife actually hated him, but from the scene we saw, she was clearly heartbroken.  When she came back from the dead, did she actually have all of those memories?  My own memory is failing me right now because I think the episode where she comes back from the dead was actually prior to the episode where we learn that he didn't want children, so again, a bit of retconning.  

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

But that was before she came back from the dead and he was clearly ecstatic that she was back which tells me that he just wanted to be with her again. And if Heaven is supposed to be your best memories why would he replay her anger over kids for all eternity?

In Bobby's last episode, it showed the fight they had over the children which IIRC happened the night he had to kill her.

I think on some level, Bobby might think it's not right for him to put her in his Heaven when he had basically betrayed her trust by never telling her that he didn't want kids before getting married. Like he was doing the right thing for her by not being with her in Heaven.

[MysteryGuest]

If only the writing on this show was worthy of all of the scrutiny we give to the smallest plot details.  Wouldn't it be grand?

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, Katy M said:

My "beef" is I don't think she hated him.  I don't think we have any evidence of that. And, Bobby even told Rufus that they didn't have time to get past it.  Not that it was a hopeless case, that she hated him, etc.

I'm just going by the rage she directed at him which seemd pretty strong. Maybe she didn't hate him but I still think he didn't want her in his Heaven because of that split. I could also be totally wrong. LOL

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't think we can equate John with any other 'maybe' in her Heaven. He is their father and the other reason for all that happened - I think he would have come up in the conversation. And since her 'babies' were there with her, I don't think first boyfriends enter into it. YMMV and clearly does.

It depends, I guess, on her perspective/priorities.  If she identified herself as a mother first, then I imagine her primary happiness would be taking care of her boys.   I may be wrong, but it seems to me that the "memorex" version is mostly one particularly happy moment/event in time, like the autistic man's Tuesday afternoon, or Pamela's concert at the Meadowlands (?).  It's not an ongoing narrative of life.  I don't know if it shifts when it gets tiring or the person wants variety, or if it's just on constant autoplay, because in heaven you don't ever get bored.  So maybe Mary's "one perfect moment" is making lunch for Dean, with Sammy cooing in his crib and knowing that John is at work, and happily anticipating his return.   I think John's perfect moment would have Mary in it***, but not necessarily the other way around.  JMO.

***ETA:  from a time when they were young and in love, before he found out about demons and deals, and probably before the boys were born.  

Edited November 19, 2017 by ahrtee

[Res]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

I was only responding to the assertion that previous to S12 it was stated neither John or Mary were in Heaven. I disagree that it was ever stated one way or the other.

But, why would John be sharing the same Heaven as Mary? Heaven is a place you spend reliving your memories alone. Only soulmates are grated joint "rooms", so I wouldn't have expected Mary to have been with John since the angels had to get them together to begin with.

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

I understand you think the scene turned into a scene about Sam, but that's not my read of it. IMO, the entire scene was about Dean realizing that Mary was never who he thought she was and coming to terms with that and accepting her anyway. I think what he said about Sam was a pointed statement to how Mary had failed Dean by not even trying. At least he tried to protect and save Sam, even if he couldn't; Mary didn't even bother to try and protect him like she promised she would.

Due to the fighting they started having after they were married with the 2 sons required by Heaven, I think the "cupid's arrow" stuff started wearing off and they both realized that they weren't the "meant to be" they thought they were, like several other couples have over the years. Dean overheard the arguments, remembered the nights John didn't come home and openly admitted they didn't have the "perfect marriage" before she died. That's why I believe they wouldn't share the same Heaven, even if they are both there. But their boys would be in both Heavens because I do believe they both loved them. I also know John probably wouldn't want a Heaven with his wife after he'd found out what all she'd done by the time he sold his soul.

For the 2nd quote, IMO, Dean had realized that piece by piece over the series and it was hammered home in the first half of S12. It was pretty obvious from the scenes of him sitting on the floor of the kitchen, drinking alone in the dark with her picture in his hand and her completely ignoring his "I was never one (a child)." I mean they made it abundantly clear that she didn't give a crap about him, except when he was mad, and then it was only because he failed to understand HER. There was NO reason for that to be the purpose for that final "love-hate" speech. If anything, it was more that he realized she didn't give a crap about him, or at least not enough to care about him in order to change their behavior to not hurt him, but she did express concern over Sam and Sam's opinion since the beginning of S12. Therefore, he knew making the speech about Sam would actually get to her and have her change what she was doing because SAM! Which of course work.

This among several other things that have happened under Dabb's reign has made it more than clear that the new regime considers the show more the "Sam" show rather than the "Brothers" show which has me now hoping that @catrox is right about Dean dying and hoping it's sooner rather than later, so that cannot damage him more than they already have. 

Edited November 19, 2017 by Res
clarification

[DittyDotDot]

12 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

But if Heaven is just memories, then when we see Jimmy welcoming his newly deceased wife, and asking how his daughter Claire is, how does that work?  

Ash said, on rare occasions, soulmates shared--like Sam and Dean--so I think Novaks were supposed to be soulmates.

[Katy M]

20 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

But if Heaven is just memories, then when we see Jimmy welcoming his newly deceased wife, and asking how his daughter Claire is, how does that work?  

Because Amelia and Jimmy are real.  Anybody else in their Heaven would be memories. But, they can interact with each other just as Sam and Dean did in Dark Side of the Moon, but memory Mary and the Thanksgiving family just went on doing whatever they were doing in memory even though Sam and Dean were doing other things.  The memory people weren't able to react.

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

But if Heaven is just memories, then when we see Jimmy welcoming his newly deceased wife, and asking how his daughter Claire is, how does that work?  

Maybe there has to be some kind of mutual spiritual agreement that all parties in someone's heaven have to be invited and agree to be included based on whatever is happening in your emotional state when you die and they have to be in Heaven to be included.

Like maybe Sam's Heaven didn't include Dean because he was pissed at Dean to a degree in s5 before they were murdered so Dean isn't invited especially if they are at odds. Maybe Dean didn't want to be in Sam's Heaven because they were at odds. (controversial opinion I know!)

Maybe Dean's Heaven included Mary but not John because because John wasn't in Heaven and couldn't come anyway. Or he was pissed at John for being a deadbeat dad for years so his Heaven at that time wouldn't include John. No invite, no John. 

And similarly, Mary's Heaven doesn't include John because of whatever problems maybe existed in their marriage when she died. Or if John isn't in Heaven, he can't be there anyway.

Maybe Bobby having had to kill his possessed wife disqualifies her from being in his Heaven. 

I'm just spitballin here LOL cause I don't get how Heaven works at all

[Katy M]

I think Sam didn't have any memories of Dean because he hadn't gotten that far yet.  He only got through two memories.  We only saw Bobby with one memory.

As far as having to be in Heaven to be in a memory, I doubt that all the people in Sam's Thanksgiving were dead.  2 of them were near his age.  I'm not saying it's impossible, just unlikely.  Mary said she had memories of Sam and Dean up there, so unless they were old, they didn't have to be in Heaven.

[gonzosgirrl]

25 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

It depends, I guess, on her perspective/priorities.  If she identified herself as a mother first, then I imagine her primary happiness would be taking care of her boys.   I may be wrong, but it seems to me that the "memorex" version is mostly one particularly happy moment/event in time, like the autistic man's Tuesday afternoon, or Pamela's concert at the Meadowlands (?).  It's not an ongoing narrative of life.  I don't know if it shifts when it gets tiring or the person wants variety, or if it's just on constant autoplay, because in heaven you don't ever get bored.  So maybe Mary's "one perfect moment" is making lunch for Dean, with Sammy cooing in his crib and knowing that John is at work, and happily anticipating his return.   I think John's perfect moment would have Mary in it***, but not necessarily the other way around.  JMO.

***ETA:  from a time when they were young and in love, before he found out about demons and deals, and probably before the boys were born.  

I still think if John were any part of her heaven, it would've come up at some point. When mentioning being with her 'babies', or Sam giving her John's journal, or literally any other time during the season, it would have been a kindness to tell her sons that their father was happy in heaven, even if she didn't know it wasn't necessarily his heaven.

[catrox14]

15 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Ash said, on rare occasions, soulmates shared--like Sam and Dean--so I think Novaks were supposed to be soulmates.

I've never really understood how Sam and Dean were soulmates when Sam's Heaven didn't have Dean. I know they were able to go around the Axis Mundi to see each other's Heavens but I never got why that was perceived as "soulmates".

[ahrtee]

I think they're all just the individual's happy memories, nothing more, nothing less.  No one in the memory is real except the original "dreamer," unless they're sharing space as soulmates, which seems to be very rare.  So no invitations (or approval) needed; and happy memories may wipe out other, later betrayals or sad endings.  You may not want your ex-husband in your current life, but you may remember your courtship and early marriage happily and want to re-experience the flush of first love, without the weight of knowing how it ends.  This is heaven, after all.  A cosmic version of Plucky Pennywhistle, "where all your dreams are good!"

8 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I still think if John were any part of her heaven, it would've come up at some point. When mentioning being with her 'babies', or Sam giving her John's journal, or literally any other time during the season, it would have been a kindness to tell her sons that their father was happy in heaven, even if she didn't know it wasn't necessarily his heaven.

It wouldn't have made any difference to the boys, because her version of John wasn't real, and they would know that.  Though I think if she was talking about her happy memories of taking care of the boys, she might have mentioned John being there, too.  But if he wasn't in those specific memories, maybe not.  

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I've never really understood how Sam and Dean were soulmates when Sam's Heaven didn't have Dean. I know they were able to go around the Axis Mundi to see each other's Heavens but I never got why that was perceived as "soulmates".

I don't necessarily believe they're "soulmates"  either, but IMO the only reason Sam's heaven(s) didn't include Dean was because Zach was picking and choosing specific memories to drive them apart and specifically to make Dean feel like Sam didn't care about him.  It doesn't mean that in their *real* heaven they wouldn't be together.  

[DittyDotDot]

22 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Maybe there has to be some kind of mutual spiritual agreement that all parties in someone's heaven have to be invited and agree to be included based on whatever is happening in your emotional state when you die and they have to be in Heaven to be included.

Like maybe Sam's Heaven didn't include Dean because he was pissed at Dean to a degree in s5 before they were murdered so Dean isn't invited especially if they are at odds. Maybe Dean didn't want to be in Sam's Heaven because they were at odds. (controversial opinion I know!)

Maybe Dean's Heaven included Mary but not John because because John wasn't in Heaven and couldn't come anyway. Or he was pissed at John for being a deadbeat dad for years so his Heaven at that time wouldn't include John. No invite, no John. 

And similarly, Mary's Heaven doesn't include John because of whatever problems maybe existed in their marriage when she died. Or if John isn't in Heaven, he can't be there anyway.

Maybe Bobby having had to kill his possessed wife disqualifies her from being in his Heaven. 

I'm just spitballin here LOL cause I don't get how Heaven works at all

Like I said, I think of Heaven like a holodeck that's loaded with all one person's memories. You can load whatever memory you want or relived the same memory over and over and over again depending on your mood. Anyone you see there is a memory not a real life person. It feels real to the touch, but is just "memorex". Like how Dean could touch and hug Mary, but she still could only do the things Dean remembers her doing in that memory--that wasn't actually Mary, but just a memory of her.

So, if there was a version of John in Mary's Heaven, it would've been her memories of him, not actually John--unless they were soulmates and I'm skeptical of that simply because Heaven had to force them together. John would be in his own Heaven with his own memories--presumably, unless he was taken somewhere else after he escaped from Hell.

12 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I've never really understood how Sam and Dean were soulmates when Sam's Heaven didn't have Dean. I know they were able to go around the Axis Mundi to see each other's Heavens but I never got why that was perceived as "soulmates".

Sam's Heaven did have Dean, literally. They were reliving their memories together. I'm guessing they both have many memories that doesn't include the other and both have many memories that do and if they'd stayed any longer we might have seen more memories of them together. Remember, Dean's memory of his Mary didn't include Sam either.

Edited November 20, 2017 by DittyDotDot