“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[SueB]

Except for the episode from S8 which is an abomination, I don't find these two all that bad.

 

I am counting the minutes til this episode.  I think it's precisely because DEAN recognizes how horrible his actions were that Dean is still a hero.  He knows he has to get rid of the Mark and that his actions were unacceptable.  It's not about whether or not they deserved what they got, it's about HOW he killed them.  Dean is best to judge this and he knows it was over the line.  It's actually a good sign he can still tell the difference.

[Aeryn13]

Compared to what all the characters did before, I don`t think those actions were oh-so-horrible. The show lets much darker shit slide but then brings out the moral pearl-clutching when it`s convenient. That makes it look more ludicrous to me.

 

Dean thinking the worst of himself is in character but the agreement from hypocrisy, table for two, is galling. Back when it was their turn to go darkside, the implication of "monstrous" was met with the wibbly lip of wounded baby-bird-dom but Dean condemns himself and his friends and family apparently can`t wait to jump on this train. Maybe they shouldn`t have simply sat in the car then. To act now like they`d much rather have come back in and found Dean dead on the floor to keep their dainty moral sensibilities intact takes the cake. 

[rue721]

From the Cast in Other Roles thread:

 

Has anyone else ever heard Carver talk about wanting to expand it to an ensemble level of cast? Because if that is true that really explains so much about the past two seasons.

 

I haven't read anything from Carver (though that doesn't mean he hasn't said anything, I don't keep up with show-specific interviews and stuff). I would guess that that would be the case, though.

 

I think the show (on an episode-by-episode level) is constructed like an ensemble show now, and I think that was on purpose. Crowley and Cas have storylines separate from the Winchesters that even have their own recurring side characters (like Hannah) and that only intersect with the Winchesters' SLs. That changes the basic episodic structure/formula, imo:  it used to be A-Plot = Winchesters Hunt & B-Plot = Winchesters Emote, but now the Winchesters usually just have one plotline in an episode, and it's not necessarily the A-plot of that episode even. Like in The Things They Carried, for example, they didn't have the A-Plot.

 

I actually think it's a good idea in theory to take some of the pressure off of JA/JP to be in virtually every scene in every episode, because that must be exhausting. I know the issue of overworking the leads has been a major problem for other shows that aren't ensemble -- Law & Order:  Criminal Intent almost fell apart over that, I think?

 

In practice, though, for some reason SPN is really terrible at developing plots other than for the Winchesters (arguably, for them, too), and even though I *like* a lot of the side characters (though my personal favorites are now all dead, natch), the show isn't good at developing them in a way that they can eventually carry their own storylines, either. So while I'm sympathetic to the idea of trying to make the show ensemble and even hope that's what Carver has been trying to do, I think he's failed in his execution of that.

 

You know what I'm going to say about what characters I think could carry their own SLs and would have interesting/organic SLs and relationships with the Winchesters, so I won't beat that war drum again! But even aside from that, I do think it's odd which characters the show tries to integrate -- Crowley is a completely strange character to have decided to make a regular imo. I guess the producers wanted someone to carry Heaven storylines (Cas) and someone to carry Hell storylines (Crowley), in addition to the guys leading Earth storylines?

[catrox14]

I guess for me, I can watch any number of ensemble shows and I do understand the difficulty and desire to give J2 some time off BUT I watch this and Arrow because they are NOT ensemble shows. I like the show being about the boys and everything should be tied to their orbits just like in Arrow everything should be in and around Oliver's orbit.

[Pete Martell]

In practice, though, for some reason SPN is really terrible at developing plots other than for the Winchesters (arguably, for them, too), and even though I *like* a lot of the side characters (though my personal favorites are now all dead, natch), the show isn't good at developing them in a way that they can eventually carry their own storylines, either. So while I'm sympathetic to the idea of trying to make the show ensemble and even hope that's what Carver has been trying to do, I think he's failed in his execution of that.

 

You know what I'm going to say about what characters I think could carry their own SLs and would have interesting/organic SLs and relationships with the Winchesters, so I won't beat that war drum again! But even aside from that, I do think it's odd which characters the show tries to integrate -- Crowley is a completely strange character to have decided to make a regular imo. I guess the producers wanted someone to carry Heaven storylines (Cas) and someone to carry Hell storylines (Crowley), in addition to the guys leading Earth storylines?

 

I think SPN developed a number of characters who could carry their own stories (Ellen and Jo, Bobby, Jody, Kevin). The problem is that the show never wants to go beyond the all-about-the-brothers format, and they face visceral backlash from the most vocal parts of fandom when they do. There was fan backlash over episodes like "Annie Alexis Alex Ann" because Jody wasn't just there to be the maternal figure for Dean and Sam. People said they'd rather see her die, because her role no longer had enough to do with the brothers. What can you do with reactions like this?

 

I'd say Carver did well with characters like Benny and Kevin. I would have watched them in their own stories. But there would have been a bloodbath in fandom, and it would have taken away from the idea that everything is about the brothers (especially since Kevin had little to no reason to feel much of anything for Dean and Sam).

 

It's easier to give characters like Crowley and Cas side stories, Cas because he's been around long enough to have a fanbase of his own, Crowley because he's easy comic relief and a lot of fans tend to ignore his more disgusting moments because he makes them laugh, and Mark Sheppard's a great actor and a nice guy.

 

If anything I feel like last season was a huge regression of the possibility of SPN being an ensemble show, after season 8 raised that option. Kevin's death really put paid to that. 

 

This season still doesn't feel like an ensemble to me, as it's mostly just segmented, with Crowley and Cas mostly interacting with a revolving door of guest characters, while Dean and Sam do the same.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Pete Martell

[SueB]

IA, Kevin's death really hurt ensemble stories.

[Demented Daisy]

Ugh, don't get me started on Kevin.  Talk about a misused character.

[7kstar]

The writers are really weird.  They don't cave on certain issues even if it isn't good for the storytelling and yet cave on others.  If they wanted to really switch it up. they should just go for it.   

 

Their love of flashbacks to tell parts of the story that would actually be better if it was done in real time...I think the fans could support Dean and Sam separate if it was organic and it felt as if it was designed to create a new resolution to explore an interesting dynamic of the brother's relationship.  A twist that we didn't see coming.  Instead we get a lot of rinse and repeat and story lines that are rushed and aimless for the most part. 

 

I keep hoping I'm wrong...but just when I think it might be a breath of fresh air, boom they go backwards.  And then they anger another part of the fandom.  You can't please everyone, so tell your story in a way that moves it forward.  Of course it would help if they didn't kill off the more interesting characters. 

 

If Jensen didn't pull me in, I don't know that I would still be here.  But I also root for each show runner to do it well.  I want them to succeed.  I just wonder if they didn't try to cater so much to a section of the fandom, if the stories would be better?

[DittyDotDot]

From the Halt And Catch Fire thread...

 

What's strange with this show is that it actually *doesn't* seem as collaborative as other shows (in terms of its writing). I mean, you can usually tell right away who wrote a specific script. Also, I feel like one script/writer will frequently have very different strengths and weaknesses than any other script/writer, and those strengths/weaknesses will be clear even in the final product/the episode -- that makes the show feel less cohesive, imo. The strengths and weaknesses of any given episode are all over the map, as is the tone of the episode, the characterization, everything. Usually the showrunner would take the edge off of those inconsistencies and polish every script into a show- (rather than writer-) specific voice, but that's not happening here. (I don't know why?)

 

I mean, we just had a good character episode from Adam Glass last week. Then this week, it's a complete muddle. The tone last week was strong imo, even the jokes were pretty good, but the tone this week was very off, and the humor was terrible (and in general, I think that I know that this pair of writers is bad with tone/humor/characterization, though they have tended to go too broad for the most part, which is probably why they got this particular episode). Ross-Leming and Bruckner are going to be shit at finding good ways to get the episode's plot from Point A to Point B, but meanwhile, Thompson is good at that. It makes it seem like the writers really aren't working together, they're all sort of doing their own thing. Because they definitely don't seem to be working as a team to fill in each others' weaknesses or lend their strengths to any given episode, at least not after the outline stage.

 

I'm curious about what goes on in their writers' room because it almost feels like there *isn't* one. But obviously there must be. Maybe Carver (or Singer?) is too absent or not giving enough leadership and nobody else is stepping up to take the lead? Maybe for some reason the writers have poor communication with each other and/or with the showrunners (i.e., they don't have enough meetings or face time or something)? Idk. Also, this show seems like the production is genuinely pretty close. I mean, something like Fan Fiction seemed to me like it was as much an homage to the production team/crew as to the fans imo, what with that scene at the end showing all the people in the audience (who I assume are crew and/or producers), etc. So why aren't any of the writers on the same page, when it seems like everyone else is? That's a very unusual dynamic, I think -- to have the production's (relative) top brass a disorganized/inconsistent mess but for the actual production to be well-run.

 

I don't think that this writing staff is fundamentally any weaker than any other given writing staff (I mean compared to other shows), so I don't think it's an issue of "they just need better writers." There are lots of good ideas, and even the basic bones of the scripts seem pretty good for the most part -- but the scripts almost always seem like rough drafts to me, or mayyyybe second drafts? You could tell that Glass put a lot of thought/care into About a Boy, and props to him for that, but one reason you could tell was that it was in such contrast to something like The Hunters' Games, which seemed like it really was the writers' rough draft that we were seeing on screen. And this episode seemed like it *had* been polished somewhat, since the first half was weirdly toned down and the second half weirdly mealy-mouthed, so the script seemed like it was in some kind of transition stage in terms of editing, imo -- but it needed *at least* one more draft to get it feeling more like a finished product imo and it definitely didn't seem like it had been punched up. Since (imo) this is fundamentally an editing problem (w/r/t the scripts in general), that seems like a managerial issue to me. But on the other hand, I thought that when Gamble was showrunner, too. Though I liked S6 and S7, they were also muddled (and imo it's gotten worse under Carver). So I'm not trying to lay all the blame at Carver's feet. I'm just very curious about what's going on that this is such an issue. It's also frustrating to see, for me, because it seems so *fixable.* It seems like something a good showrunner should be able to fix. Though of course, how would I know? I can't even really tell what's going wrong, let alone how to right it!

 

I agree this show doesn't feel all that collaborative anymore--I think they work hard and the crew especially is a well-oiled machine--but now it feels more like everyone is working more independently. It might be that they're so long in the tooth that they don't actually collaborate all that much anymore, but TPTB feel like each part has a handle on their own part so well (because they've been doing it for years) that they don't feel like they need to mico manage each piece anymore. So everyone is kinda just doing what they independently think is what the episode is, but when all the pieces are brought together they don't actually fit right. I don't think it's all on the writers, but if the director also doesn't know what an episode is supposed to be then it's probably not going to come off right either.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I think they need a good script editor/overseer. I work for a small town newspaper and we rely on the community to help us out quite a bit because we just don't have the staff to get out and cover everything. So, we get stuff from so many different sources and it's up to my editor to clean up the writing so it sounds like its one consistent voice. This is missing from Supernatural right now, IMO. Each writer seems to have their own spin on the characters. I couldn't believe the exchange in Halt and Catch Fire with Sam asking Dean if he died and Sam drove Baby would he kill him. That should never have made it past the first draft, someone should've definitely spotted it had actually happened twice before. These aren't just little "oh, I forgot we never went to the Grand Canyon" things, but these were major plot points.

 

However, I think the biggest problem is I don't feel like they have a clear vision for the show anymore. I'm not sure how to articulate this, but I think they have general ideas of where they want to go and general ideas they want to explore, but there's no real sense that they know what they actually want to be anymore. It seems like they have a few different people with a vague map, but no compass and no captain to keep them on the same heading, so they each end up steering the boat in different directions.

[Pete Martell]

I can't remember the last time SPN ever felt collaborative to me, or a show that had a vision. Probably season 4, at the latest. The show has been a wildly disparate mess for ages. I've never known another show where I can so easily tell who has or hasn't written an episode. I tend to assume Kripke began to allow divergent ideas and voices to do their own thing, and it's stuck ever since.

Edited February 17, 2015 by Pete Martell

[DittyDotDot]

From the Dean thread...

 

 

While I don't disagree with your point--it's easier to nitpick than create it--but I do believe they only spend eight days shooting it, but the actual episode takes far more than eight days to complete. The writer's spend weeks on their scripts, then pre-production is about eight days, shooting is eight days and post differs depending on visual effects and such.

 

Another writer responded to my tweet and said unless there is an deadline issue the writer has more than 2 weeks.  It also depends on the writer's speed of writing an ep.  I just knew the 8 and 8 and thought the writers got the same time frame.  So perhaps the writers are fair game after all.  I can get some of it though, when I've written something and then a reader sees something I never even intended which causes issues I never thought would happen.  So it's still on one hand it's difficult and on the other hand what were they thinking.

 

Like I said, don't necessarily disagree with your premise, just clarifying the timetable. Also, my understanding is that two weeks is just the hardcore writing; they've already went through a rough outline process that was sent to the network for approval before the writer knuckles down for that last two weeks. Supernatural also likes to have their writers follow their own ideas through if they can, so many times the concept of the episode is that writer's own pitch. So, it's not that they're just given the idea and have to go write it in two weeks, but they've been working out the idea for some time before that. Each writer is writing about three episodes per year, so I think there's a lot more time spent on each script than just the two weeks of writing it. Or that's how I've always understood it based on commentaries and interviews that I've read.

 

I'm generally a fairly forgiving viewer--I mean, I'll notice stuff and be amused by it, but really that's all out of love. I am finding it harder and harder to be amused as of late since these guys are in their tenth season and seems like their mistakes should be less rookie at this point.

[7kstar]

Yeah my timetable was off so I had misunderstood how they did the writing.  The production time is a fast turn around...but they should be doing a bit better on the writing.  See I can be a big girl and admit when I'm wrong!  :)

[catrox14]

From the spoilers thread

 

@DittyDotDot

 

I wasn't saying that the episodes were despised because she was his wife, but that the episodes suck. What I was asking is, why is nepotism all the sudden a factor when they've been with the show for 10 years and it didn't seem to factor in before?

 

 

Personally, I would have fired the both of them from ever writing again after The Episode That Shall Not Be Named aka "dog fuckers".   But they wrote Route 666 and didn't get fired either. They didn't  write any episodes between Route 666 and 'The Episode That Shall Not Be Named * ....which was during Kripke's and Gamble's tenures as showrunners.  Carver took over beginning s8. So either Carver must like the drivel they produce or maybe Singer has more influence now than he did with Kripke and Gamble. Just my speculations.

 

from IMDB

- The Hunter Games (2015) ... (written by)
- Soul Survivor (2014) ... (written by)
- King of the Damned (2014) ... (written by)
- Blade Runners (2014) ... (written by)
- Holy Terror (2013) ... (written by)
- I'm No Angel (2013) ... (written by)
- Taxi Driver (2013) ... (written by)
- Man's Best Friend with Benefits (2013) ... (written by)
- A Little Slice of Kevin (2012) ... (written by)
- Heartache (2012) ... (written by)
- Of Grave Importance (2012) ... (written by)
- The Slice Girls (2012) ... (written by)
- Shut Up, Dr. Phil (2011) ... (written by)
- Route 666 (2006) ... (written by)
- Episode #10.22
- Episode #10.21

 

To be fair....I like parts of their episodes and I think the writing in their episodes has improved.

 

For example.

 

 

--The Hunter Games: All the Dean/Metatron stuff (couldn't care less about Claire)

--Soul Survivor -- The Dean/Sam stuff

--Blade Runners...I loved that episode and I am still shocked they wrote it....hmmmm

--Dean/Benny parts of Taxi Driver,

--Sam/Dean/Gadreel confrontations in Holy Terror,

--The Dean/Cassie stuff in Route 666

--Sam/Dean parts of Soul Survivor

 

Now maybe that is one part of the writing team writing the stuff. Or maybe the writing improved because of other writers influence.

 

@DittyDotDot corrected that some were in s7 which I sometimes lose track of LOL. Being a story editor and a producer isn't the same as writing the episode in it's entirety. I still think it's quite likely Singer has more influence now than he did before.  

Edited March 8, 2015 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

They didn't  write any episodes between Route 666 and 'The Episode That Shall Not Be Named * ....which was during Kripke's and Gamble's tenures as showrunners.  Carver took over beginning s8. So either Carver must like the drivel they produce or maybe Singer has more influence now than he did with Kripke and Gamble. Just my speculations.

 

They wrote under Gamble, three of the episodes you listed were in S7. They're credited as story editors between S1 and S7, if I remember correctly. And they wrote three episodes of S8 before the episode that should not be named.

 

Are you sure that it's the writing that's improved or that other parts have stepped up to make them more palatable? Their S7 episodes may not have been stellar, but they weren't offensive and constant cannon-wrecking. I'd say the difference is someone was editing their scripts more and now it doesn't feel like that's going on with any scripts. Personally, I don't think their writing has improved at all. They still over-pack their episodes, tear down cannon and don't really seem to be able to get from A to B to C in any reasonable way. It's more like A to F to C, if you ask me.

 

Anyway, doesn't really matter, just got me to thinking why they would keep giving them the heavy lifting when it doesn't seem to be their strong suit.

[catrox14]

 

Anyway, doesn't really matter, just got me to thinking why they would keep giving them the heavy lifting when it doesn't seem to be their strong suit.

 

I understand what you were asking.  I think they are being giving the heavy lifting because of Singer's influence or Carver really does like their writing which I guess could be true because he's ultimately the one that let's things pass.  I mean JFC, how did ANYONE in charge allow that godsawful dog fucker episode ever see the light of day and made it on to the air is beyond me.  That is something unbelievable to me. 

[rue721]

They're also "co-executive producers" on SPN at this point and have sorta/kinda been around since S1. I guess they have some seniority in the writers' room? Maybe they get the mytharc-heavy episodes because they want them and they have enough pull to get more-or-less what they want at this point.

 

I suspect they want the mytharc-heavy episodes *because* they're so terrible at plotting and so unimaginative. The mytharc-heavy stuff is probably more sketched-in by the writers as a group beforehand, and if R-L&B were competent hacks they could at least pull off a sort of paint-by-numbers "boring but serviceable" script for that kind of thing.

 

But they're not even competent hacks, they not only don't seem to write from the heart *at all* (which imo means they're never going to be more than hacks in any case), they just straight up don't seem to know how to put a script together. I actually think their strongest script was Route 666, because I did like Cassie, and I thought that the relationship stuff between her and Dean was actually interesting (and pretty hot!). I didn't think there was really anything wrong with the characterization in that episode, even though the story itself was dumb (which I also kind of give the Duo a pass on because *someone* had to OK that pitch). OTOH the characterization and the dialogue, stuff like that, might have been relatively good because someone else (Kripke? Singer? Who knows) might have polished the shit out of that script before it actually got produced, and the only difference between then and now is that now they don't have anyone polishing their stuff. I think in general, they didn't necessarily have as much editorial control over their script then than they do now, so I don't want to lay all the blame for its weaknesses at their feet, but I don't want to give them all the credit for its strengths, either (lol).

 

I agree that the big problem with the writing now is that the scripts don't seem subject to really any editorial oversight. It's the showrunner's *job* to give that oversight, that's specifically why he's called the "showrunner" and not just EP, so I attribute that failure directly to Carver. Poor management at best imo.

 

The staff writer who actually frustrates me is Robbie Thompson, because I think he's a pretty solidly good writer, but his episodes often fall pretty flat (for me, anyway) because they're under-worked. They could really be good if they got polished a bit more, but this "second draft" type stuff shouldn't fly (that's how his most recent Charlie episode seemed to me -- an OK-not-terrible-but-not-ready-for-production second draft that needed to be gone over a few more times). The writers who are just awful or seem to not give even one fuck about how good their scripts are (like the Duo imo), I've just given up on. I watch their episodes so I don't miss some key plot element or whatever, but my expectations in terms of those episodes actually being entertaining or enjoyable are basically nil. I'll say this for Adam Glass:  he clearly busts his ass on his scripts, and even though his sensibility isn't that similar to mine, and I don't even like a lot of his episodes, I will say that they never seem lazy and he always seems like he puts some real effort in. They usually have some good emotional beats, and some genuinely lighthearted humor, as a result -- and I appreciate that, too. Honestly, he's probably my favorite writer on the staff right now, which is kind of nuts to me because he tends to be pretty treacly for my taste. But he seems like he's handling the lack of oversight the best, so...*shrug.*

 

Like I've said before, I don't think that the problem is that the writers on this staff are especially bad. I think that they're at least as good as any other given staff on any other given show. But imo the writing/editing process on this show isn't working. Frankly, I think that's always been an issue for this show (the problems with tone are proof of that imo) but I feel like they've just paired the supposed process down to the point that basically there *isn't* a communal process. And because the writers aren't terrible, a lot of episodes aren't terribly written *still.* But ugh I just see so much potential for this show to still be legitimately *good,* especially since it seems like nobody else is just phoning it in, so I find it frustrating that something as cheap and low-tech as inadequate oversight/editing is undermining this whole shebang. JMV, obviously I don't know what's actually going on behind the scenes, that's just what I see as the stumbling block when I watch the episodes.

[SueB]

 

The mytharc-heavy stuff is probably more sketched-in by the writers as a group beforehand

I think so as well. Also, Bob Singer and Carver spend time together with the big picture. I'd be surprised if he doesn't pass that on to his spouse. It's a reasonable collaboration to expect if they are both passionate about their jobs.  And while there are time that Singer definitely comes across like he's phoning it in, there are other things he says that make me think that I'm wrong about that.  So... who knows.  I don't think "mostly mytharc" is due to nepotism.  I actually think it's due more to writing styles and how Carver/Singer view their staff.  Ben Edlund said he used to get all the wacky comedy stuff until he got a shot at "On The Head of A Pin".  And then he got "The End" (damn that was good).  So they've developed an approach and worked with it.  Who has more seniority that Buckner-Lemming at this point?  

 

BTW, I agree about Adam working his butt off. He often tweets while writing.  I also think Robbie and Bobo do a great deal of homework for each episode.  Is there parts of the writing that get a "WTF?" from me?  Sure.  From every writer from time to time. But it's not horrific (except the episode which must not be named) IMO. This is, IMO, one of those areas where some episodes "land" for most people, some episodes "fail" for most people, and then everything in-between has too many variables to always pin down individual reaction.   

[7kstar]

I think so as well. Also, Bob Singer and Carver spend time together with the big picture. I'd be surprised if he doesn't pass that on to his spouse. It's a reasonable collaboration to expect if they are both passionate about their jobs.  And while there are time that Singer definitely comes across like he's phoning it in, there are other things he says that make me think that I'm wrong about that.  So... who knows.  I don't think "mostly mytharc" is due to nepotism.  I actually think it's due more to writing styles and how Carver/Singer view their staff.  Ben Edlund said he used to get all the wacky comedy stuff until he got a shot at "On The Head of A Pin".  And then he got "The End" (damn that was good).  So they've developed an approach and worked with it.  Who has more seniority that Buckner-Lemming at this point?  

 

BTW, I agree about Adam working his butt off. He often tweets while writing.  I also think Robbie and Bobo do a great deal of homework for each episode.  Is there parts of the writing that get a "WTF?" from me?  Sure.  From every writer from time to time. But it's not horrific (except the episode which must not be named) IMO. This is, IMO, one of those areas where some episodes "land" for most people, some episodes "fail" for most people, and then everything in-between has too many variables to always pin down individual reaction.   

 

 

he staff writer who actually frustrates me is Robbie Thompson, because I think he's a pretty solidly good writer, but his episodes often fall pretty flat (for me, anyway) because they're under-worked. They could really be good if they got polished a bit more, but this "second draft" type stuff shouldn't fly (that's how his most recent Charlie episode seemed to me -- an OK-not-terrible-but-not-ready-for-production second draft that needed to be gone over a few more times). The writers who are just awful or seem to not give even one fuck about how good their scripts are (like the Duo imo), I've just given up on.

 

I think they care about the show, but one thing I see in teaching is that taking pride in what you do or really editing what you do isn't happening anymore.  There is an overall laziness that is happening in society today that didn't happen before as much. 

 

I think audience's in general have grown from what we use to accept as great or good TV. Some of the writers are writing for the styles that use to be okay.  But because of DVD's, vhs and other methods that the audience can really nitpick an episode, the writers can't get away with some of the stuff they use to do. 

 

I see really smart kids not putting much effort into their work and many are telling them that they are the A student.  Then they get me and boy are they mad, because suddenly I'm like this is crap, go redo it, not even  a high B.  So I can agree with both sides of your argument. 

 

I think they care but they seem to lack the ability to polish their work and I'm not sure if it is because they are blind and can't see their own short comings or they no longer have someone really fine tuning their stories.  But I can say I've felt this way since season 1.    They have had some really great ideas, but it felt half baked instead of fully cooked. 

 

At first I thought it was because they aren't given much time to write the scripts but now since I know they have way more than 2 weeks, that excuse just doesn't hold water.  I think they care, but maybe they are just to blind to see the weakness in their scripts and their isn't someone to say hey do you really mean for this to happen?  But I do think that Robbie and Adam really try and care about the show.  JMV

Edited March 9, 2015 by 7kstar

[Aeryn13]

While I think there are different levels of writers on the show, at this point, there is not a single one I`m wow-ed by. Some are capable of producing good scripts but even from them you can`t expect any kind of consistency. By which I mean, mostly good scripts with one or two bad eggs. Everyone has that. Here, everyone is a mixed bag.

 

And what is problematic is that everyone`s whims seem to be indulged. Thompson`s ridiculous over-pimping of Charlie? He should flat-out not get to write that character anymore since she is getting more God-Mode-Sue by the episode. He can`t get a handle on it, take his toy away.

 

Glass, I have enjoyed his Teen!Dean stuff for the most part but keep out the "and this is from my personal life" parts. Because I can assure you those don`t really fit the character, Glass.

 

The nepotism duo IMO does get the mytharc episodes because of nepotism. They want them? They get them. Maybe they think they can write particularly epic stuff. Yet, they are subpar. At best. You don`t give your most important work to subpar employees. You let them do minor work in the hopes they improve. And if they have weird kinks with dogs, work them out in therapy in your own time.

 

Jenny Klein is simply atrocious and might be the worst one on staff. Charmelo/Snyder are so-so, veering on meh. Their last episode with the internet haunting was a disgrace in terms of characterization. Those writers take the character stuff right from exaggerated versions like Tall Tales.

 

The writing stuff overall also should have a "taste"-tester along with a continuity manager. And by that I mean literally a person who tells them when what they are doing is so tasteless, cheap and plain unfunny, it borders on grotesque. Then we wouldn`t have "wow, that was offensive, who would have thought" pearl-clutching on twitter later. Maybe an anti-cliché person would work as well. They could put a stop to "this is how rich people/young people/women/teenagers/intelligent people act" from Trope-ville.

 

Of course I lay most of the responsibility for the shortcomings at Carver`s feet. Him and Singer but I do think the latter checked out of the creative process already and mostly handles the financial/practical production side of things. Carver on the other hand doesn`t even know what goes on in his own episodes. He gave interviews about the Season 9 Finale that had nothing to do with what was onscreen.

 

"Dean was proud of Sam having come to a place where he, Sam, could let him go". This entire statement is so ludicrous, I don`t even know what to say to it and he wrote that episode. I know J2 changed lines there but unless they changed not only that whole script as well as the entire Season 9 as well as most of the stuff that came before, I don`t know what the man was talking about. Dean`s lifelong problem was never that Sam couldn`t let him go. The conflict in Season 9 didn`t arise from Sam not letting Dean go and that Finale was most certainly not the conclusion to that. Aaaaaaahhhhh.

 

I have never, never seen or heard a showrunner discuss their own show and not know what it was about. Some may be jackasses to the fans, some may be smug and not allow differing opinions but at the very least, they all KNOW what they put onscreen.

[catrox14]

Wait, Carver really said that about s9?? /head desk head desk head desk.

[7kstar]

What I see from Carver is a lack of excitement.  I find I usually sleep through his interviews so I skip them as what he says will happen isn't what I see on screen.

 

Somehow he does come up with some good ideas, but then the WTF shows up.  Maybe he is better off camera but he needs to figure out what the fans see and have his stories match up to what is shown and what he wants to tell.  IMO.

[oliverwendell]

Eric Kripke has a series in development at the USA network.  It's called "Amped," and it's apparently a superhero show.  Although it sounds to me like it will be closer to "Greatest American Hero" than "Arrow" in tone.

[Demented Daisy]

I'm watching A Very Supernatural Christmas on TNT and I can't help but wonder... is Carver's heart made of stone?  ;-)

 

Really, though, it's crazy to think that the show has gone from a pair of brothers, fighting the good fight, sometimes screwing up, but....  I don't know.  It feels like Sam and Dean have lost their humanity.  They spend all their time fighting each other these days -- or being so wrapped up in each other -- and so many "innocent" people get caught in the crosshairs....

 

I don't understand how TPTB think this is fun to watch.  It just makes me sad when I watch the older episodes.  That version of Sam and Dean is who I fell in love with.  But they don't exist any more, IMO.

 

ETA  I'm just tired of the bro angst.  Since Carver took over, have they worked together... at all?  Serious question, because I can't remember a time.  (I don't count the MotW episodes.)

Edited May 14, 2015 by Demented Daisy

[catrox14]

Great interview with Robbie Thompson from the Fangasm gals.

 

https://fangasmthebook.wordpress.com/2015/05/14/weekend-with-the-writer-supernaturals-robbie-thompson-at-depaul-university/

[Mick Lady]

All I can add, is that some posters on this board should be writing this show. I'm looking at catrox14 ,rue721, SueB, and 7kstar in particular. 

 

I'm not trying to kiss anyone's ass, but when I read more intelligent discussion of this show than I have from the writers, it's time to shake things up! For God's sake, can't these writer remember their own cannon?! It drives me insane when the fans know the show better than the writers!

[SueB]

D'awwwww Mick Lady, you are so sweet.  Thank you. 

 

Although I must say, I do think that Robbie and Bobo are HUGE fans of the show and spend hours researching and rewatching episodes to get the best script they can.  Interestingly enough, Robbie and others have talked repeatedly about Andrew Dabb being very dedicated. I'm also getting the impression very very shy.  Although Dabb rips out hearts, I think he loves the brothers tremendously.  

 

For me, Carver tries to be too clever and takes delight in our pain (and thinks that makes it good). Singer swings from interested to 'get a paycheck' IMO.  B-L are cashing checks IMO.  Klein is just trying to establish herself and I think has a different vision than many fans (she and Raoul, the imaginary gay dragon from TWOP, would get along well because she loves her gore).  But when the writers go to the set, it's on their own dime from what I understand.  And Jenny has gone up many times.  So I think she definitely cares. And Adam Glass spends HOURS buffing ideas on weekends and odd hours.  He likes to tweet when he's at the office alone I think.  

 

*reads entry* I may be a bit too obsessed with SPN.   

[DittyDotDot]

From The Prisoner Thread...

 

After what I just read from Bob Singer`s panel, I wouldn`t bank on any answers for anything. He actually admitted they have no plan whatsoever and make shit up as they go along.  Especially cliffhnagers, it`s written and then afterwards they go "oh my, what now?". Jesus Christ.

 

Which seems in direct conflict with Carver saying he's got a plan. /scratches head

 

Sometimes I don't know how to take Singer's comments. He seems super sarcastic to me.

 

Man, I was burned on the "we have a plan" with Battlestar Glactica...I learned my lesson and now always have a healthy skepticism about these things. I think they have very broad strokes planed, like the general character emotional beats, but I don't think they have any of the specifics worked out ahead of time. They obviously never planned for Dean to become a demon until after First Born and Robbie Thompson suggested it. I also don't think they planned for Sam to be possessed by an angel back in S8. I somewhat buy Carver has an end scene in mind, but I don't believe he knew how to get there back in S8. Or if he did, so many other things have come up and changed the course of things. So, I think it's no longer the same path, but probably the same destination.

 

But even if there was a strict plan they were following, it doesn't mean it's a good one.

Edited May 16, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[Aeryn13]

Yeah, didn`t the Lost people swear up and down it wasn`t afterlife and they weren`t all dead? And then, it turned out that they were all dead and it was afterlife. I do believe at the time they swore it, they were actually telling the truth. 

 

So, yes, I believe Singer was candid here. And the show proves it to me. Noone plans anything. Though, if your actors aka Jensen here goes "wow, how are they going out of that one" is one thing but if the showrunner says "and now we have to ask oursevles how we get out of this one" is quite another. At least plan the resolutiion of a risky move BEFORE you make that risky move. 

 

What do they get their money for actually if they aren`t doing even the bare bones of their jobs? The financial/producting side is important but I consider the creative/storytelling side more so and definitely a part of the showrunners job. They can hand of the individual episodes, fine, but at least have the overarching story in mind. At least have a napkin with some scribbles on it. They don`t even seem to have that. And seem to think that this is cool and charming and they deserve accolades for it?  . 

[supposebly]

It does speak loudly when scripts like the one that should not be named or Taxi Driver pass muster.

 

 

At least plan the resolutiion of a risky move BEFORE you make that risky move.

 

This, for me, is one of the most important differences between a well-written and -planned show and one that....isn't. They rely way too much on what JP and JA bring to the table but it starts feeling like disrespect to them (not even speaking of the viewer) if they can't be assed to keep up their end of the deal.

 

I did wonder when they started considering that the 100th was very early in the season and they had to scramble not to have Demon Dean in that one. It all felt terribly rushed and badly planned. The episodes itself was wonderful but the lead-up was terrible.

[SueB]

*cackles evil-y*

Mwhaahahsa. Get 'em fans. Get'em.

I am SO glad Misha's put Bob on the hot seat for Charlie. I want the fans to look him in the eye (Singer) and say ' Do BETTER'.

Me? I'm not holding a grudge nope nope not at all.

*where the hell is that stewardess?I need a drink*

Note: this vitriol brought to you from 39,000 ft. I think I see Kansas down there.

[7kstar]

*cackles evil-y*

Mwhaahahsa. Get 'em fans. Get'em.

I am SO glad Misha's put Bob on the hot seat for Charlie. I want the fans to look him in the eye (Singer) and say ' Do BETTER'.

Me? I'm not holding a grudge nope nope not at all.

*where the hell is that stewardess?I need a drink*

Note: this vitriol brought to you from 39,000 ft. I think I see Kansas down there.

Bob Singer and Carver...you both deserve to have to face your fans.  Killing Charlie was plain dumb.  Even if you had really good reason, this one just sucked and you just made her stupid.

 

IA that some of the writers really try and care about the show and I really respect them.  But JA & JP need direction too.  In TV, the writers play a part of the director's job in stage.  The director has a lower bit of control in TV land.  In stage everyone, including the writer answers to the director.  It's a different world and the writer can find what they created on the page is thrown out if it just doesn't work. 

 

Good actors also need strong material to make it work.  I think some of the blame for the acting is that they are doing their best to make it work, but sometimes it just doesn't make any sense.  I can understand only having broad strokes, but at least go back enough and make sure the puzzle pieces fit. 

 

I think this was a strength that Krikpe did.  He might have not really planned it all out and some things he was definitely flying by the seat of his pants, but he was smart enough to pick a moment in the past to tie it in.  By doing that, it made it appear as if he had planned it all along.  JMO

 

All I can add, is that some posters on this board should be writing this show. I'm looking at catrox14 ,rue721, SueB, and 7kstar in particular. 

 

I'm not trying to kiss anyone's ass, but when I read more intelligent discussion of this show than I have from the writers, it's time to shake things up! For God's sake, can't these writer remember their own cannon?! It drives me insane when the fans know the show better than the writers!

Aww Thanks.  I agree that the writers need to bring it up a notch.  Smart people watch this show too, so writers do your job a little better please especially the so-called best ones, or the ones they seem to allow to write more than they should.

 

I admit after reading Robbie's interview my respect for him has gone wayyyyyyyyyy up.  :)

 

My frustration is that they have some awesome potential ideas that fail because they don't have a big picture plan.  Killing off characters should only be done if it really forwards the story, not for a cheap shot to make fans react.

Edited May 17, 2015 by 7kstar

[supposebly]

I just find the laziness when it comes to canon and character consistency unbearable.

 

And this isn't such a big deal when a show is young but with this dinosaur, the little gaps are now gaping canyons.

 

I have such a hard time recognizing the actions and behaviors of the characters as genuine at this point. JA and JP are creating so much gold out of a lot of shit writing, it breaks my heart. It's not Charlie's death that bothers me, everyone dies on this show. It was the enormous amount of stupid the characters had to be in order to make it happen. That script should never have been approved. Pedestrian and amateurish crap.

[7kstar]

I just find the laziness when it comes to canon and character consistency unbearable.

 

And this isn't such a big deal when a show is young but with this dinosaur, the little gaps are now gaping canyons.

 

I have such a hard time recognizing the actions and behaviors of the characters as genuine at this point. JA and JP are creating so much gold out of a lot of shit writing, it breaks my heart. It's not Charlie's death that bothers me, everyone dies on this show. It was the enormous amount of stupid the characters had to be in order to make it happen. That script should never have been approved. Pedestrian and amateurish crap.

What gets me besides this, is that when this show ends, if all they have is bad writing to show for it, how will they get the next opportunity, for a new TV series.  Maybe it is the fact that they get new fans and they feel that counts more?!

 

I'm also bored of everyone dying on this show.  It's not surprising or interesting anymore.  It's over done and boring  IMO.  :(

[Mick Lady]

What gets me besides this, is that when this show ends, if all they have is bad writing to show for it, how will they get the next opportunity, for a new TV series.  Maybe it is the fact that they get new fans and they feel that counts more?!

 

I'm also bored of everyone dying on this show.  It's not surprising or interesting anymore.  It's over done and boring  IMO.  :(

 

Add to that, nearly everyone who dies, comes back in some form or another. With Death in the last episode, I expect to see Charlie again. Perhaps via the internet? After all, if Death, (my favorite character, BTW) can get Sam's soul back from Lucifer in the cage, how hard will it be for him to bring back Charlie?

 

I know many of you have said the Grand Canyon bit is unimportant, but than why is it, that every single form I read about Supernatural brings it up? The writers should at least watch the show as carefully as their fans do.

 

We're ordering pizza Wed. night, in honor of Death. Any excuse to order pizza is my motto! Thank God Mick loves this show as much as I do, though neither of us is sure why...

[catrox14]

See I'm gonna go with a burger and fries and beer because Dean :)

My beef with the Grand Canyon moment is that it's mentioned TWICE in the show and was framed as a rather telling character point for Dean. He is saying that in all his years of driving around the US and saving people, hunting things he never got to the Grand Canyon and because Edlund et all screwed up, it erases the poignancy of Dean is saying "let's go to the grand canyon" because he doesn't want to think about killing Sam.  

 

All for the sake of having Sam say "Farty donkey".  UGH That's why I hate it and why it's a sore spot with me.

[AwesomO4000]

See I'm gonna go with a burger and fries and beer because Dean :)

My beef with the Grand Canyon moment is that it's mentioned TWICE in the show and was framed as a rather telling character point for Dean. He is saying that in all his years of driving around the US and saving people, hunting things he never got to the Grand Canyon and because Edlund et all screwed up, it erases the poignancy of Dean is saying "let's go to the grand canyon" because he doesn't want to think about killing Sam.  

 

All for the sake of having Sam say "Farty donkey".  UGH That's why I hate it and why it's a sore spot with me.

 

And I'm still not sure how Edlund forgot, because one of the previous Grand Canyon mentions was in an episode he wrote. I'm sure there must be other places where people take a donkey tour if he wanted Sam to talk about a farty donkey. It's too bad that that canon blip is so annoying, because The Great Escapist * was one episode from that season - and there weren't many - that I liked Sam and the episode in general.

 

* He also wrote one of the other few, Everybody Hates Hitler, too. I wasn't at all fond of Blood Brother though.That picks at canon in another way, starting the whole "Sam hates Benny for no apparent reason other than he's a vampire" thing.

[DittyDotDot]

I know many of you have said the Grand Canyon bit is unimportant, but than why is it, that every single form I read about Supernatural brings it up? The writers should at least watch the show as carefully as their fans do.

 

Oh, I don't think it's unimportant, but just find it less egregious than other things they've screwed up over the last few years. It wasn't a huge plot point, so I can understand how it could be easily overlooked by one person--how the group as a whole didn't catch it is a bit puzzling to me though. I think I probably forgive it easier because it's something I can think of a way around without to much mental gymnastics as opposed to pretty much anything to do with the reaper lore over the last few years. It's all about putting things in proportion, right?

 

Anyway, this is why I say someone needs to take a stronger hand in overseeing the scripts. Not only to smooth out the dialogue, but to do the simple fact checking. If I can remember Dean suggesting to go to the Grand Canyon in and episode I mostly dislike and rarely pay much attention to, it seems like someone else on staff should've remembered it too. I don't expect every writer to remember every detail I do, but when things like the exchange in Halt and Catch Fire about Sam driving Baby if Dean died pass through, it seems like there's no one even paying attention at all.

 

Sometimes I wonder why I don't have brain damage from all the things I've had to make sense of, forget or repress over the last couple years...or maybe I do? ;)

Edited May 17, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[supposebly]

The grand Canyon is a character moment that shows the laziness. At least, Edlund acknowledged it.

 

Next time I watch when Dean mentions this, I go, but that's not true! Or did you have amnesia for a while there?

 

The reapers that are visible and behave like cheap ass hunter wannabes (and angels later on) negate whole episodes such as Faith or Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid or In My Time of Dying or the awesomely creepy scene in Abandon All Hope when Castiel walks through all the reapers just standing there, waiting.

 

Or the easy way into Hell, so season 4 I'll go, Hell it's not so bad, Dean, you just needed to find a way out the back door! No need for all this torture and angst. Or Castiel, really just use purgatory to get Dean out. Naomi had no problem getting you out of purgatory, so this shouldn't be such a big deal. Just use the back door. Ask a reaper posing as a cab driver and you're good to go. No need for other angels to die to get Dean out. Never mind that it was so hard for Crowley and Castiel to find purgatory in the first place in season 7.

 

So, what am I supposed to think when I rewatch those episodes? Sit there and go, guys, all this is not necessary!

 

I'm really worried they mess up Death too. They kind of already did since I still don't really understand what happened in I think I'm gonna like it here but I'm expecting worse for the finale based on the promo I saw. I hate that I'm watching promos now to keep my expectations low.

 

Yes, I talk to my TV characters, sue me.

[Altered Reality]

 

Yes, I talk to my TV characters, sue me.

Wait!  Doesn't everybody?

[catrox14]

Sometimes I worry about how much I do talk to TV characters....

[Altered Reality]

Sometimes I worry about how much I do talk to TV characters....

Only worry when they answer back ;D

[catrox14]

Only worry when they answer back ;D

 

I'm sorry I didn't hear you. Dean was saying something to me...

[AwesomO4000]

Only worry when they answer back ;D

 

Speaking of Ben Edlund, this reminds me of Smile Time (Angel)... definitely worry if the characters talk back to you through the TV.

[DittyDotDot]

I'm really worried they mess up Death too. They kind of already did since I still don't really understand what happened in I think I'm gonna like it here but I'm expecting worse for the finale based on the promo I saw. I hate that I'm watching promos now to keep my expectations low.

 

Yes, I talk to my TV characters, sue me.

 

::whispers:: Sometimes I yell at them. ;)

 

The promo thing is weird for me. I stopped watching them altogether for a while there because I kinda felt like the best of the episode was the promo and I could've saved myself a lot of time by only watching it. But, lately, I've been watching them to mock how badly they are cut together in order to get everyone all in a tizzy. It's kinda sad.

[Altered Reality]

I'm sorry I didn't hear you. Dean was saying something to me...

Sweet nothings?  I wouldn't hear anything else either ;D

[catrox14]

LOL my version of Dean's sweet nothings would be all

 

Dean (his .45 drawn, standing next to the Impala, screaming at me) "RUN. NOW.  Get behind the salt ring! I JUST TOLD YOU TO GET BEHIND THE SALT RING!!"/insert Dean eyeroll

Me: 'But...Dean, I was getting you a beer from the cool..../ghost attacks me

Dean: "Sonofabitch.Why didn't you listen to me?" /single man tear

 

I would die happy. 

Edited May 17, 2015 by catrox14

[Altered Reality]

catrox14 to each their own :D

[catrox14]

LOL, Well, I don't delude myself that he would even kiss me because well,  you know...that's just crazy talk, but saving my stupid ass from a ghost....

[Altered Reality]

Heh,  I figure if I some how wound up in the Supernatural universe I wouldn't even last long enough for the Winchesters to figure out I was in trouble.  Only place I expect I would have a shorter life span is the Doctor Who universe.  Or maybe it'd be a tie.

[Mick Lady]

Oh, I don't think it's unimportant, but just find it less egregious than other things they've screwed up over the last few years. It wasn't a huge plot point, so I can understand how it could be easily overlooked by one person--how the group as a whole didn't catch it is a bit puzzling to me though. I think I probably forgive it easier because it's something I can think of a way around without to much mental gymnastics as opposed to pretty much anything to do with the reaper lore over the last few years. It's all about putting things in proportion, right?

 

Anyway, this is why I say someone needs to take a stronger hand in overseeing the scripts. Not only to smooth out the dialogue, but to do the simple fact checking. If I can remember Dean suggesting to go to the Grand Canyon in and episode I mostly dislike and rarely pay much attention to, it seems like someone else on staff should've remembered it too. I don't expect every writer to remember every detail I do, but when things like the exchange in Halt and Catch Fire about Sam driving Baby if Dean died pass through, it seems like there's no one even paying attention at all.

 

Sometimes I wonder why I don't have brain damage from all the things I've had to make sense of, forget or repress over the last couple years...or maybe I do? ;)

 

Oh Dot, don't your dare get me started on reapers! I swear I could go on for hours on this subject!

 

You have a great point though, how hard would it be to have a fact checker? Back in the olden days, when I was young, (before the internet) a friend of mine was a "Fact Checker" for the NYT. She loved her work and saved many a reporters' ass. Show runners take note, or at least pretend you care.

 

The driving Baby conversation was what made me throw up my hands and just roll with it, or at least try. But truthfully, I'm getting brain damage too. I can't wrap my mind around the fact that the actors didn't call them on that one. Now I'm gonna go and drive Mick crazy bitching about this. It won't be the first time, or I'm sure, the last!