“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[Nick24]

33 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

 Considering how this series turned out, maybe that wouldn't be so bad. However, we would have missed fabulous scenes from Jensen - ten years of them! 🙁

Actually, SPNverse itself is the richest universe I've ever seen! There is so many potential for great storylines. There are so many unexplored things and so many stories just waiting to be told. There are so many legends, myths they could use as some kind of basis. 

They could have done something with dreams. Maybe some DreamWorld, because why not? They could have figured out the exact process of becoming a demon. I have no idea, why the writers did not see that. I mean, something. Not the same old. 

[Nick24]

10 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

Apparently with the writers and showrunner we had at the time, it was! 

Well, I meant in general putting that showrunners thing aside. But IA.

10 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

The soulless storyline was supposed to last the entire season, but maybe someone (Kripke?) shortened it to a half-season. 

Whoever it was, thanks!

10 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

Then in S7, her intent was to kill off Cas for good - no resurrection. 

That would have been mercy for the character. I wish she did that, because Castiel had become absolutely unwatchable with Dabb/Berens.

Edited June 29, 2022 by Nick24

[ahrtee]

55 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

The soulless storyline was supposed to last the entire season, but maybe someone (Kripke?) shortened it to a half-season.

IIRC, the reason it was shortened was not because it wasn't a good storyline, but that too many Sam fans were complaining how bad it made Sam look.  I think Jared liked it because it gave him a chance to play against his usual Sam-type, but the fans didn't want that.  

[DeeDee79]

1 minute ago, ahrtee said:

IIRC, the reason it was shortened was not because it wasn't a good storyline, but that too many Sam fans were complaining how bad it made Sam look.  I think Jared liked it because it gave him a chance to play against his usual Sam-type, but the fans didn't want that.  

I remember reading that Jared didn't like it because it made Sam unlikeable. I actually read that on these boards but he could have reacted this way after his fans didn't care for the storyline.

[ahrtee]

11 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I remember reading that Jared didn't like it because it made Sam unlikeable. I actually read that on these boards but he could have reacted this way after his fans didn't care for the storyline.

You could be right.  There are a lot of Sam/Jared stories that I wiped out of my mind.  😀

[DeeDee79]

12 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

You could be right.  There are a lot of Sam/Jared stories that I wiped out of my mind.  😀

With good reason!

[Nick24]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

IIRC, the reason it was shortened was not because it wasn't a good storyline, but that too many Sam fans were complaining how bad it made Sam look. 

Wow. I wish Dean fans had that kind of influence on the writers.

1 hour ago, DeeDee79 said:

I remember reading that Jared didn't like it because it made Sam unlikeable. I actually read that on these boards but he could have reacted this way after his fans didn't care for the storyline.

Why on earth would anyone care what Jared liked or didn't like? No one seemed to care about Jensen from what I've read. I know, I know, I've asked many times, but what the heck was with the writers/showrunners obsession with Sam/JP? Why had Jared been given a storyline after storyline, whereas Jensen had been with that ''Take it or leave it!''?

Those showrunners had ruined the show with all that favoritism.

Edited June 30, 2022 by Nick24

[DeeDee79]

3 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

Why on earth would anyone care what Jared liked or didn't like?

It was when Sera Gamble was the showrunner. Nuff said.

[FlickChick]

20 hours ago, Nick24 said:

Why had Jared been given a storyline after storyline, whereas Jensen had been with that ''Take it or leave it!''?

That's a very good question! We know that Sera was a Sam/Jared girl, but that doesn't account for the rest - Kripke, Carver and Asshole. I think Kripke had Sam as his avatar (don't forget - Dean was supposed to be a sidekick brother character). Carver did write Demon Dean and MOC Dean while also giving us Jared's interpretation of an angel with a stick up his ass. And Asshole, who has zero talent in any capacity, was probably jealous of Jensen and listened to what Jared wanted - except of course when it came to his real HERO -JACK! Then, all bets were off. I should know better than to mention him - raises my blood pressure! 👿

[ahrtee]

21 hours ago, Nick24 said:

Why had Jared been given a storyline after storyline, whereas Jensen had been with that ''Take it or leave it!''?

Maybe they knew/trusted that Jensen could make lemonade out of anything, but Jared had to be hand-fed?  

[Nick24]

On 7/1/2022 at 1:26 AM, ahrtee said:

Maybe they knew/trusted that Jensen could make lemonade out of anything, but Jared had to be hand-fed?  

Interesting thought! But I'm not sure that the showrunners/writers thought that way. But I agree that Jensen can make lemonade out of nothing too. Actually, I don't like most of Sam SLs. I find them either boring or annoying or both. On the other hand, Dean's SLs had a lot of potential. 

Just compare Sam's demon blood and Dean's The Righteous Man/True Servant of Heaven, Soulless Sam and Demon!Dean, Sam's coughing blood with the trial/GadreelSam and MoC!Dean, another round of Sam's Lucifer fest and Dean's connection with God's sister. 

Dean's SLs themselves had much more potential than any of Sam's. But all Dean's SLs were either dropped or undeveloped, whereas Sam's arcs were boring me to death.

On 7/1/2022 at 12:36 AM, FlickChick said:

but that doesn't account for the rest - Kripke, Carver and Asshole. 

I don't know whether to laugh or cry....

On 7/1/2022 at 12:36 AM, FlickChick said:

 Carver did write Demon Dean and MOC Dean while also giving us Jared's interpretation of an angel with a stick up his ass.  

Do you mean Gadreel!Sam? Actually, I can't see any point in that SL. Why was Sam dying in 9.01 in the first place? He hadn't finished the 3rd trial, he wasn't supposed to die. Was it meant only to throw The Purge into our faces?

Also Carver gave Sam his BotD business. I mean, the MoC was God's curse. Castiel told in 10.10 it had predated the lore. And then all of a sudden we got some spell book with some little spell to remove it. Seriously?

Oh, btw, now I do think, that Sam violated Dean's agency by removing the Mark of Cain. The MoC was being on Dean's arm, Sam was aware that Dean didn't want to use that book (whereas Dean hadn't had an opportunity to ask Sam about anything in 9.01), but Sam finished that no matter what. And that Sam's/Rowena's spell effected Dean's body AND Dean's SOUL...and released the Darkness, meanwhile. IMO That's much worse. But it was never addressed, because they all of sudden had stopped ''blame game''. Apparently because this time Sam had to be blamed. 

On 7/1/2022 at 12:36 AM, FlickChick said:

And Asshole, who has zero talent in any capacity, was probably jealous of Jensen 

I might be wrong, but it seems to me now that Dabb was probably more of a Jensen hater, whereas Berens was more of a Dean hater. Does it make sense?

Edited July 2, 2022 by Nick24

[Nick24]

17 hours ago, FlickChick said:

 I should know better than to mention him - raises my blood pressure! 👿

For that case I always have my herbal tea around. You never know when Dabb will come up.

[tessathereaper]

On 6/29/2022 at 10:05 AM, gonzosgirrl said:

Probably not ;)

Dean was almost always able to overcome outside influences/compulsions and stop himself from harming those he loved, where Sam... didn't. But not everyone can be Dean Winchester ;)

I say almost, because Dean probably would've shot Sam in 8.06 if not for Garth, but that was the exception, not the rule.

And considering he'd not long before found out that once again Sam had just ditched him, didn't even try to find out what happened when he went to Purgatory and  abandoned Kevin as well, honest it's pretty easy to see why Dean wouldn't have overcome it in 8.06. :)

[Nick24]

5 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

And considering he'd not long before found out that once again Sam had just ditched him, didn't even try to find out what happened when he went to Purgatory and  abandoned Kevin as well, honest it's pretty easy to see why Dean wouldn't have overcome it in 8.06. :)

I like your interpretation! Well, in this case I want to say that Demon!Dean was very kind to Sam in 10.02-10.03, because as we know it happened after 9.12-9.13. And Demon!Dean's desire to kill Sam with a hammer was probably his declaration of deep love. Kidding. 😊

Edited July 13, 2022 by Nick24

[Nick24]

A random question. Do we know, what the heck was with Sam's ''We need to save everyone"/''No killing'' and Dean's ''Oh, right, the new rules'' in the beginning of S11? Especially Dean. Did any writer/producer come out with any explanation? Or that was just another round of Sam The Half Christ** and Dean The True Sadist**? 

**Fuck Berens, btw. 

Edited July 14, 2022 by Nick24

[tessathereaper]

Yeah it made zero sense.  ZERO sense.  But it was just like that idiotic excuse they had Sam try to give for not looking for Dean after the season 7 finale when he went to Purgatory, that never before seen or heard of "promise to not look for each other"(when literally just a few episodes earlier in Season 7, for the Elliot Ness episode, Dean had disappeared in front of Sam in a flash of light and he'd immediately started looking for him because, with their lifestyle and experiences, WHY would he just ASSUME he was dead?).

So Dean disappears, they successfully reunite because Sam looked and Dean knew Sam would look and left clues for him, and THEN decide "hey if one of us disappears again we should DEFINITELY not even try to figure out what happened"?  And it happens off screen of course.

[Nick24]

1 hour ago, tessathereaper said:

Yeah it made zero sense.  ZERO sense.  But it was just like that idiotic excuse they had Sam try to give for not looking for Dean after the season 7 finale when he went to Purgatory, that never before seen or heard of "promise to not look for each other"(when literally just a few episodes earlier in Season 7, for the Elliot Ness episode, Dean had disappeared in front of Sam in a flash of light and he'd immediately started looking for him because, with their lifestyle and experiences, WHY would he just ASSUME he was dead?).

So Dean disappears, they successfully reunite because Sam looked and Dean knew Sam would look and left clues for him, and THEN decide "hey if one of us disappears again we should DEFINITELY not even try to figure out what happened"?  And it happens off screen of course.

Oh, that was another WTF. I was really angry with that excuse. I mean, I did remember, what had been happening, ''dear'' writers. 

I thought about Time After Time too. All of it was ridiculous. Then in Taxi Driver they made it like Bobby had taught them that agreement. Come on, when??? He died in 7.10. And then in 7.12 Sam was looking for Dean. So? As a ghost then? Oh, just stupid. 

ETA: They were so desperate to justify Sam's decision, so they didn't even care about logic. Or they thought the audience would swallow anything. 

Edited July 15, 2022 by Nick24

[tessathereaper]

You know and it wouldn't even have been as bad if they'd make Sam's character have to deal with that honestly and not in a pass the buck somehow it's Dean's fault and/or Dean was the one with the problem for being upset about it.

But as usual, it was Dean gets treated badly or betrayed and it's HIS fault he doesn't just roll over and accept it and act like it never happened and it's all fine. 

When what they really should have done was have Sam deal with his unreasonable resentment and jealousy of Dean which goes all the way back to the beginning of the show and Sam was never called out on and never made to deal with. Meanwhile Dean had to go through 100 variations of "Dean needs to let Sam grow up, Dean needs to let Sam go, Dean needs to accept Sam as an equal, Dean is co-dependent(guess what you can't be "co dependent" alone idiot writers)" even when he was DOING all those things, until they suddenly wanted to absolve Sam of blame for the other things and suddenly they'd blame it on Dean not doing those things. 

I mean that Season 4 to Season 5 transition was ridiculous, Dean in Season 4 literally was letting Sam do what he wanted, he was trying to accept everything Sam wanted him to accept(despite Dean literally dealing with hell memories and being the one who actually really NEEDED the emotional support, he had to ignore it all to watch out for Sam), he literally says "Do what you want just don't lie to me about it" only for Sam to go back to lying to him about it in the next sentence but next season in early season 5 it was "yeah I went with Ruby because you are bossy and controlling and won't let me be me!!!".  What?  

And every time Dean was shown trying to break that cycle himself, they forced him back into it but again never with the pay off that Dean was doing the right thing trying to do so, Dean was trying to break the cycle but "the universe" or Sam himself literally would not allow him to(like post The End where they were forced back together by both Zachariah AND Sam suddenly being like "OK we need to be together now that I've found I'm Lucifer's vessel, even though I didn't think we needed to be together when we found out YOU were Michael's vessel"). 

It's like they are the writers WHY are they writing him trying to break the cycle, a cycle in every other circumstance they are critical of,, only to accuse him of doing the wrong thing, being a bad brother, friend, person, whatever.  

Edited July 15, 2022 by tessathereaper

[Nick24]

5 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

You know and it wouldn't even have been as bad if they'd make Sam's character have to deal with that honestly and not in a pass the buck somehow it's Dean's fault and/or Dean was the one with the problem for being upset about it.

In this case they would have had to accept, that Sam was in the wrong. Apparently they couldn't let themselves even think about it. They had a lot of opportunities to let Sam grow up. Season 5 for instance. But no, as you've pointed, they retconned Season 4 with Fallen Idols only to make Sam shine at Dean's expense. 

Then Season 8. They could have let Dean do the trials and made Sam support his brother and proved his loyalty to Dean. They could have made Sam help Dean with his post-Purgatory PTSD and social adaptation (because Sam didn't give a damn about Dean's Hell Trauma). 

Then Season 9. They could have made Sam understand Dean's Gadreel business. And I thought they might do it because of 9.07 Bad Boys (Oh, how naive I was). Sam saw how damaged Dean's psyche had been because of that ''Watch out for Sammy'' program. No, we got The Purge. 

Then Season 10. They could have made Sam support Dean with his MoC issue and appreciate Dean's efforts to beat it. But again, they wanted to justify Sam's Rowena business, so again they were feeding us with ''Dean is getting worse, Dean is giving up and blah blah blah'' without actually showing that. More importantly, Dean was showing his fighting against the MoC. There was no giving up until calling Death in 10.23. After Sam/Cas had betrayed** Dean's trust once again with the BotD.

**Robbie Thompson said in DVD comments that Sam had betrayed Dean with the BotD business and that had been one of the reasons of Dean's actions in 10.22-10.23. That was really nice to hear. 

Then Season 11. They were putting into Dean's mouth ''the new rules'' to make us fall in love with Saint Sam, who all of sudden wanted to save everyone, when Sam hadn't cared about meatsuits for years. He didn't care about saving people pre-S1, between S7 and S8. Oh, btw. He had abandoned Kevin. And then they made Sam lecture Dean about ''mistreating'' Kevin and his mother and then about ''being a hunter'' (because of letting Benny go) in 8.09. WTF?? 

5 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

When what they really should have done was have Sam deal with his unreasonable resentment and jealousy of Dean(which actually led to him destroying the new life Benny was trying to build but again never acknowledged as such within the show)

Not to mention about abandoning unstable Martin in the woods alone (then his death as a result) + causing Elizabeth a mental trauma. And right in the next ep all of it was completely forgotten. The writers were only interested in "Mean Dean ruined Samelia wonderful life and made poor baby Sam upset, what a bastard". And then in 8.11 they made Charlie talk about it. What the heck was with that:

Quote

CHARLIE: So he found some normalcy with this chick, and now it's gone... again. Thanks to you.

What was with that ''again''?! What was she talking about? Stanford? But Charlie hadn't read Chuck's books back then. Then what? 

Edited July 15, 2022 by Nick24

[Nick24]

As for S11. They even tried to retcon Bad Boys with Just My Imagination and blame teen!Dean for not being able to exist in 2 different places and show ''Oh, look, Dean didn't take care of Sam enough. Dean failed him and wasn't around when he had to''. Just awful.  

[ahrtee]

They tended to blame Dean for everything that Sam had decided on his own.  Talk about not having his own agency?  If everything Sam did wrong was because of Dean (even though most of the time Dean had specifically told him *not* to do it) then what agency does Sam have to take away?  That includes sneaking away/running away, following Ruby in season 3 (even before Dean died), and all the events mentioned in the posts above that were Sam's choices but framed as Dean's fault.  

One of my favorite (worst) parts of Sam in season 5: In episode 1, when he was remorseful and apologized for following Ruby/letting Lucifer loose, Dean told him how much his lying had hurt him and how he felt he couldn't trust him; but within, what, 2 episodes?  3?  He was already chafing at being "on probation" and Dean not trusting him, as if "I said I'm sorry.  Why aren't you over it yet?" was enough.  He almost literally told Dean to get over it.

16 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

The writers were only interested in "Mean Dean ruined Samelia wonderful life and made poor baby Sam upset, what a bastard". And then in 8.11 they made Charlie talk about it. What the heck was with that:

Quote

CHARLIE: So he found some normalcy with this chick, and now it's gone... again. Thanks to you.

What was with that ''again''?! What was she talking about? Stanford? But Charlie hadn't read Chuck's books back then. Then what? 

No one seems to remember that *Sam* left Amelia first, before he even knew Dean was back, because her husband was still alive.  And even the second time, when he had the chance to go back to her, he decided not to, *not* because Dean wanted him to/made him, but because Sam decided on his own not to break up someone's marriage. So the one time Sam actually did something for the right reasons it was turned into Dean's fault.  

[tessathereaper]

Right? And it wasn't even Dean's fault. EITHER TIME.  Sam and Amelia had basically broken up by the time Dean got back and Dean brought Sam back to Stanford and drove off and only came back because he recognized the signs of something fishy going on.  It was SAM who decided to dedicate himself to revenging Jessica.  And the show never had Sam take any of those things back either, he was always wishy washy on the Jessica thing when it was brought up. "It's complicated".  No.  It ain't complicated.  Dean had nothing to do with Jessica's death, Dean was perfectly and entirely reasonable in asking for some help looking for your missing father.  Dean brought Sam back exactly when Sam asked him to and left with no drama.

I've always said Sam's issue for a big chunk of the show, as presented in the show but never acknowledge by it, isn't that he wanted Dean to treat him as an equal,  He wanted to be John.  He convinced himself Dean was John's "yes man"(despite the times we know that Dean either didn't yes him or snuck things behind John's back like the fireworks Sam wanted so much).  

Sam wasn't satisfied with that and constantly found fault with it, and saw it as Dean "not treating him like an equal" because Sam wanted Dean to follow what he said, to not question him.  He wanted to take what was John's place while Dean still played the role he thought Dean played to John. LOL It's sort of like how studies show men think women talk 50 percent of the time in a conversation when in fact they've only talked 30% and the men 70%.  To Sam equality was Sam being in charge and Dean doing what Sam said without questioning.

Dean treated him as equal from the start, far more than he should have been frankly.

Sam didn't know about hunting until he  was 8(by which time Dean had known about, and unbeknownst to Sam started training for, for 8 years even if he was still a child himself), Sam dedicated himself to school and generally tried to avoid hunting if he could, then he went to college for 4 years.    

Dean had literally at least twice as much experience as Sam, including hunting on his own, and yet Dean pretty much treated Sam as a partner from the start whereas he quite rightly should have been reminding Sam of his greater experience and basically made him an apprentice.

[Nick24]

4 hours ago, ahrtee said:

No one seems to remember that *Sam* left Amelia first, before he even knew Dean was back, because her husband was still alive.  And even the second time, when he had the chance to go back to her, he decided not to, *not* because Dean wanted him to/made him, but because Sam decided on his own not to break up someone's marriage. So the one time Sam actually did something for the right reasons it was turned into Dean's fault.  

IA. But it doesn't explain ''again''. Charlie made up her opinion because of the story Dean had told her. Of course, Dean was blaming himself for Sam ditching Amelia in 8.10. But Charlie highlighted that normalcy was gone again. Before S8 the only normalcy was Stanford/Jessica. But Charlie hadn't known that and Dean didn't have that much time to talk about their life story. Probably I can see here the writers intent** to blame Dean for Stanford. Btw, they already did that in Defending Your Life. Of course, I might be wrong. 

**I don't think that was Thompson. He seemed more or less reasonable in his comments. Probably Carver/Singer made him write it.

4 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

I've always said Sam's issue for a big chunk of the show, as presented in the show but never acknowledge by it, isn't that he wanted Dean to treat him as an equal,  He wanted to be John.  He convinced himself Dean was John's "yes man"(despite the times we know that Dean either didn't yes him or snuck things behind John's back like the fireworks Sam wanted so much).  

IA. That would explain a lot. Also when Dean had some particular opinion, Sam started rooting for the opposite and convincing everyone else that Dean was in the wrong and they had to either stop Dean from doing something or make him do something.

5.18. Dean was saying ''There is no other way'' about Michael. Sam was on his ''You're wrong! We'll find it!''. Then in 10.23. Then in S14 with that box. Dean wanted to get rid of AU!Michael and keep the world safe, but no, Sam was on his ''It's quitting, we neeeeed to find another way! *tantrum #error +bitchface #3253453247634* " train. 

But when Dean was in the ''We have to find another way, this isn't an option'' mood. S10 with the MoC and BotD (10.18). And then in S11 with Lucifer Fest. Sam wanted right the opposite. ''NOOOOOO, what other way?? There is no other way!!! *tantrum tantrum tantrum*''.

It's like Sam always wanted to make himself look better than Dean. Actually Sam was the one who needed approval from other people. I'm not saying that wanting some approval is necessarily bad, but Sam wanted to have it at Dean's expense. That's what terrible. It's like Sam had nothing to be proud of but making Dean look wrong.

ETA: The same with S11. In S11 Sam wanted both. He wanted to care about meatsuits, find some cure, save everyone. But at the same time he'd use the BotD again. These things contradicted each other, but no one seemed to care. Sam thought he was right and was trying to convince Dean in it, Dean on the other hand was framed to be in the wrong. Again.

Edited July 15, 2022 by Nick24

[FlickChick]

All I can say at this point - great, very true posts - is that it's a good thing that Jensen doesn't analyze Dean's role as deeply as we do, or he might end up questioning why he stayed beyond his original contract. Of course, it went downhill from there. I often wonder how the Sam fans could justify a great deal of his behavior. Blinders?  

[Nick24]

On 7/15/2022 at 11:59 PM, FlickChick said:

 I often wonder how the Sam fans could justify a great deal of his behavior. Blinders?  

Well, I've read some of Sam fans posts in different places. It seems like they mostly have the same opinion the writers/showrunners did. A few examples:

Season 4. ''Dean didn't appreciate Sam's abilities. Dean was jealous of Ruby. He was trying to hold Sam back for selfish reasons. Dean broke the 1st seal only to stop his own suffering, whereas Sam was trying to save the world in 4.22. Sam was suffering from drinking demon blood and Dean wasn't willing to help, etc."

Season 5. ''Dean is whining, whining, whining. Dean didn't appreciate what Castiel/Bobby/Sam had done for him. Dean needed to learn to respect his brother and his choices and he deserved to be beaten in 5.18. Sam was absolutely right in Fallen Idols. About time to put Dean in his place".

Season 6. ''Dean asked Death to bring Sam's soul back only because he wanted his Sam back. Dean was repeating with Castiel his mistakes from S4 with Sam.''

Season 7. ''Dean was a hypocrite because of killing Amy. Amy was such a saint. Dean betrayed Sam again. Sam needed a break from Dean's dictatorship (7.06). ''

Season 8. ''Dean is SOOOOOOO mean to Sam. Sam found the love of his life and Dean ruined that. Sam was so suffering because of his Samelia break-up. Sam was right about putting Dean in his place again in 8.06. Sam was right about his desire to kill Benny, because Dean had killed Amy. 8.09 only on Martin. Also Dean's trick with that Amelia message was a dangerous move. So Dean had to be blamed for Martin going crazy.''

Season 9....''Dean raped Sam. Dean did it only because he didn't want to/couldn't be alone. Dean was willing to drag everyone down to make himself feel better'' and now I better stop, because my blood pressure isn't OK anymore.

Most of that reasoning is more about Dean ''being wrong'' than Sam ''being right''. That's exactly what we were talking about above.

Apparently the writers/showrunners propaganda had worked out much better than I thought.  

Now I'm going to print this post out, then salt and burn it. 

Edited July 17, 2022 by Nick24

[FlickChick]

@Nick24, Sorry, didn't mean to get your blood pressure up. :(  And it's really sad that instead of focusing on their favorite's good qualities, that Sam fans have to shift all blame to Dean for Sam's less flattering qualities.

[Nick24]

@FlickChick Oh, don't worry! I'm fine! Actually that was really interesting experience to try to write all that crap myself. So thank your for the idea!

28 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

And it's really sad that instead of focusing on their favorite's good qualities, that Sam fans have to shift all blame to Dean for Sam's less flattering qualities.

In this case they would have had to face the reality - Sam didn't have many of them IMO. I'm not saying Sam is the worst person on Earth, but he definitely wasn't that saint they thought he was. As for blaming Dean, this is really ridiculous. I mean, there are people who blamed Dean for setting Lucifer free in S11 - ''Sam went to Hell without waiting for Dean, because Dean had left him alone with Rowena and hadn't answered the phone...''. /head desk

Edited July 16, 2022 by Nick24

[tessathereaper]

On 7/15/2022 at 4:59 PM, FlickChick said:

All I can say at this point - great, very true posts - is that it's a good thing that Jensen doesn't analyze Dean's role as deeply as we do, or he might end up questioning why he stayed beyond his original contract. Of course, it went downhill from there. I often wonder how the Sam fans could justify a great deal of his behavior. Blinders?  

Because the writers do it for them, the writers are always justifying Sam's behavior, no matter what he does, Dean is put in the wrong. 

It's like if they were arguing whether the dress was blue or white(remember that?LOL), Sam would be it's blue it's blue it's blue and if Dean said it was white, he'd be framed in the wrong, Sam says it's blue, so it's blue. 

Then the next day Dean would say the very same dress was blue and Sam would say "no it's white it's white it's white" and now suddenly the show would frame it as the dress is white, has always been white and Dean is wrong for saying it's blue.

On 7/15/2022 at 4:25 PM, Nick24 said:

It's like Sam always wanted to make himself look better than Dean. Actually Sam was the one who needed approval from other people. I'm not saying that wanting some approval is necessarily bad, but Sam wanted to have it at Dean's expense. That's what terrible. It's like Sam had nothing to be proud of but making Dean look wrong.

This is absolutely right.  Right from the start Sam had this thing where he needed to show himself as better, smarter, stronger, more everything than Dean(I mean it was literally in his dialogue a few times when he was particularly angry or possessed, only somehow we were supposed to take it at face value, which just makes Sam arrogant as hell).

It literally drives a good number of his actions and his ridiculous envy is NEVER called out.  Dean is just blamed for you know, existing.  Dean exists, therefore whatever Sam does, is Dean's fault, therefore if Sam says he feels something about Dean's existence, it's therefore correct and again Dean's fault. 

It was ALWAYS a competition with Sam to the point he'd be contrary basically just for the sake of not letting Dean be right and causing an argument he would then blame on Dean being bossy/controlling/not letting him grown up/not trusting him, take your pick whatever he could use to best make himself the victim with that day. And somehow the show would always take Sam's side.  Even when the action seemed to show Dean was right, somehow he would still be wrong.  Well yeah it was right, but not right the right way.

Honestly that could have been a halfway interesting storyline to play with, but...that would require Sam actually taking the blame for a genuine character flaw, admitting that Sam was part of their co-dependent cycle in a BIG way and admitting, not just on the part of the character Sam but on the part of the show itself, Dean actually had things being worthy of being envious of, that he was THAT good and THAT smart and that he was genuinely really better at certain important things than Sam was. 

Not just when Sam wanted to guilt trip Dean "Oh I'm the least of you you must let me do what we just literally beat you up to stop you from doing"/"oh you are such a genius hunter you must let me do the trials to prove they can be survive(proceeded to try and kill himself over them::eyerolls::)". 

Those words almost never came, on the rare occasions when they came at all, when Dean actually NEEDED to hear them, or for Dean's sake alone, they came when Sam wanted something from Dean.

[tessathereaper]

On 7/15/2022 at 5:42 PM, Nick24 said:

Season 8. ''Dean is SOOOOOOO mean to Sam. Sam found the love of his life and Dean ruined that. Sam was so suffering because of his Samelia break-up. Sam was right about putting Dean in his place again in 8.06. Sam was right about his desire to kill Benny, because Dean had killed Amy. 8.09 only on Martin. Also Dean's trick with that Amelia message was a dangerous move. So Dean had to be blamed for Martin going crazy.''

Also in Season 8, don't forget Sam killed Dean's daughter, Emma, his own niece, ALSO still because of Amy. 

Amy the friend he knew for ONE day 15 years earlier and met up with again because he caught her KILLING PEOPLE. 

Emma hadn't killed anyone yet and there was some possibility Dean was getting through to her.  But Sam shot her and then had the nerve to say she wasn't really Dean's child anyway.  At least Dean got to say "yes she really was" but then it was forgotten about. 

Can you imagine if Dean had done that to a child of Sam's?  Oh my god we'd never hear the end of it, in the show or from his fans.  We heard more about AMY, who Sam barely knew and was actively murdering people, it caused directly or indirectly two deaths of people involved with Dean(Emma and Benny--and a third if you count Martin, who Sam made his flunky) because of Sam's ridiculous grudge about Amy for a season and a half, than we did about Sam killing Dean's and his own flesh and blood Emma, who hadn't actually hurt anyone yet and was confused and scared.

If it had been Sam's monster child who hadn't hurt anyone yet and Dean had shot her, we'd have had at least 2 seasons of Dean groveling and everyone telling Dean how wrong he was and Sam crying about how dare he do this to him, etc, etc.

[ahrtee]

Also, no one ever, EVER mentioned that Dean had let Amy's kid go (after making sure he had somewhere to go) because he *hadn't* killed anyone yet.  Did Sam even ask about the kid? 

[tessathereaper]

2 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Also, no one ever, EVER mentioned that Dean had let Amy's kid go (after making sure he had somewhere to go) because he *hadn't* killed anyone yet.  Did Sam even ask about the kid? 

Of course not, it wasn't about the kid or even AMY, it was as usual for Sam, all about Sam and Dean "trusting"(aka obeying without question) Sam even when it's a stupid idea. 

[Nick24]

I have no idea where to put, so let it be here.  WARNING! I'm beyond pissed off. 

Do you remember 14.05 Nightmare Logic and that djinn? He was so scared of what he'd seen in Dean's head, right? AFAIK it was never explained on screen, was it? Well, I went to SupernaturalWiki links and read the network draft. You know what, Meredith Glynn did actually explain that. There was written:

Quote

Dean flashes a gallows grin, revealing that since Michael left his body - he barely sleeps and when he does, he doesn't dream and he doesn't have nightmares. His subconscious is a pit of darkness.

Did anyone see that on screen?! Cuz I didn't. I couldn't be that blind, could I? So apparently if we trust SuperWiki materials, then Dean had been barely sleeping all that time, he hadn't been dreaming at all!!! And when Dean was sleeping he was God knows where in some "pit of darkness" because Michael had done something to him! I can assume that while sleeping Dean was feeling the same terrible feelings as when was being possessed by Michael (drowning, etc.) or that was something completely different! So Dean had had a HUGE PTSD all that time and Glynn wrote it....but it never happened to the final script, right? And we were wasting our time on that f*cking nonsense like ''Oh poor baby SuperAwesomeLeaderChief Sam who doesn't have enough time to sleep" and "Oh poor baby Jackie Sue and his angst" and ''Mary/AUBobby soap opera'' and ''Nickifer Fest'' while our Dean was suffering from such horrible issues with dreams, was blaming himself for everything and he was being alone with all those issues and no one was there to comfort and help him....

So much potential was wasted for NOTHING! So many Jensen's efforts for NOTHING!!

FUCK Dabb!!!!!! 

I'm gonna go get some air....

ETA: Oh my, so apparently Dean was suffering from it most of S14 (14.01-14.14)..almost a YEAR! I just can't....

Edited July 23, 2022 by Nick24

[7kstar]

5 hours ago, Nick24 said:

So much potential was wasted for NOTHING! So many Jensen's efforts for NOTHING!!

FUCK Dabb!!!!!! 

I almost stopped watching during season 14.  I only continued when I found out there would only be one more year.  So I finished not because I LOVED what they were creating but to see Jensen's final year.  I might remember three eps from both seasons.  I was beyond thrilled when they declared it would be ending.  Had they continued, well, I would have just stopped. Plenty of shows I have never finished.  Lost is one of them.'

Of course, if you complained, they attacked Dean fans for whining and that there wasn't any favoritism going on.  BS.

[Nick24]

2 hours ago, 7kstar said:

I almost stopped watching during season 14.  I only continued when I found out there would only be one more year.  So I finished not because I LOVED what they were creating but to see Jensen's final year.  I might remember three eps from both seasons.  I was beyond thrilled when they declared it would be ending.  Had they continued, well, I would have just stopped. Plenty of shows I have never finished.  Lost is one of them.'

Of course, if you complained, they attacked Dean fans for whining and that there wasn't any favoritism going on.  BS.

I feel sorry for you and all other people who had been following the show for years and witnessed how Dabb and Co. were turning it into dust. This is so sad. 

I started realizing that S12-15 would have issues watching Dabb's episodes in S11. S12-13 proved that. I hated those seasons, there were just few good episodes (12.11, 13.05 for instance) + some more or less satisfying ones. But I was so thrilled with Michael!Dean. Then they dropped it in 14.02 for the sake of some superboring/annoying fillers and pet characters. Berens was shoving down our throats his Sue pet and mocking Dean, Dabb with his worshiping Sam and Jack. I was thinking "WTF is going on? They had a great actor, a cool storyline. Why were they spending their and our time on that nonsense?".

Then 14.10 Nihilism gave so many opportunities for the story with Dean's death books. But I guess Steve Yockey wasn't all into Dabb's Dean/JA Hate Fest. Jensen was more than amazing. He managed to create a really scary character. I could feel that Michael!Dean was a very powerful old being. His ability to get under other people's skin was fascinating. Jensen 100% sold it. I felt like I was standing in front of Michael in Dean's head. Michael!Dean could have easily become the best villain ever. But then in 14.14 all of it was completely destroyed (Maybe Dabb made Yockey write 14.14 as some punishment for 14.10). My hope for SPN getting better was brutally killed and since then I'd been in the "I just want to finish this. I can't stop watching because I love Dean/JA too much'' mood.  

Edited July 23, 2022 by Nick24

[Nick24]

1 hour ago, 7kstar said:

Of course, if you complained, they attacked Dean fans for whining and that there wasn't any favoritism going on.  BS.

Who did? The writers?

[FlickChick]

13 hours ago, Nick24 said:

But then in 14.14 all of it was completely destroyed (Maybe Dabb made Yockey write 14.14 as some punishment for 14.10).

I couldn't believe the turn around of Nihilism vs. 14.14 with the concussion causing Dean to lose control of Michael. It seemed to be written by a different writer. Then we heard that Yockey was leaving - so yes, maybe he was told how to write that second episode. I also believe that of Glynn as well. I think she was a decent writer (and who knows, maybe actually liked Dean) but after "Regarding Dean" she was told that she needed to go in a different direction with her writing. That's two examples of writers flipping their writing. I can't believe that's a coincidence. Three guesses of who I think is responsible for these flips.

[DeeDee79]

11 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

Three guesses of who I think is responsible for these flips.

Which makes it even more awesome that Dabb's Netflix project is getting bad reviews all around while Jensen is getting much deserved worldwide recognition and adoration for his role as Soldier Boy. Revenge is sweet and Jensen didn't even have to do anything but be his usual charming self. 

Edited July 23, 2022 by DeeDee79

[7kstar]

13 hours ago, Nick24 said:

Who did? The writers?

Writer interviews saying that what Dean fans felt wasn't true as if it was allowed, would hurt their pet character.  Fans of the other characters said that it wasn't true, but it got to the point that you might as well ignore what they said.  It wasn't worth the fight.

I never changed my position. I just stopped trying to explain it. 

[Nick24]

11 hours ago, FlickChick said:

I also believe that of Glynn as well. I think she was a decent writer (and who knows, maybe actually liked Dean) but after "Regarding Dean" she was told that she needed to go in a different direction with her writing. 

Probably she did. Reading the production draft for ''Regarding Dean'' was really interesting. Describing Dean riding the bull there was written ''Like he said, he's awesome''. I can't even imagine how pissed off Dabb was. He and Singer must've been on a vacation.

11 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

Which makes it even more awesome that Dabb's Netflix project is getting bad reviews all around while Jensen is getting much deserved worldwide recognition and adoration for his role as Soldier Boy. Revenge is sweet and Jensen didn't even have to do anything but be his usual charming self. 

Well, we might sound as very bad people here, but you're 100% right. This is justice. Sorry not to sorry. 

[Nick24]

Accidently happened to watch Ep 12.18 at my friend's, who's been watching S12. One Dean/Sam conversation at the end really pissed me off:

Quote

DEAN: What do you think our legacy's gonna be? When we're gone, I mean, after all the stuff we've done, you think folks will remember us?... I wonder what's gonna happen to this place. After we're gone, you think some hunter'll move in, keep fightin' the fight?

Oh, Fuck Asshole*. Fuck Singer. I guess whoever wrote that dialogue had no idea what those bastards were going to do in S15. 

* @FlickChick I hope you won't mind if I borrow your definition of Andrew Dabb which you used here earlier. 😊

This also reminded me of another Dean/Sam conversation which had much more cruel irony.

14.13 Lebanon:

Quote

DEAN: And I’m good with who I am. I’m good with who you are. ‘Cause our lives – they’re ours. 

I'm pretty sure at that point Dabb knew what he was going to do in 14.20. He was just playing with us and making fun of the characters, the story, the audience....

I guess I'll never be able to let it go. Is there any cure?

Edited August 2, 2022 by Nick24

[FlickChick]

1 hour ago, Nick24 said:

I guess I'll never be able to let it go. Is there any cure?

I don't know. It's coming up on two years, and I haven't found it yet. 😢

[7kstar]

8 hours ago, FlickChick said:

I don't know. It's coming up on two years, and I haven't found it yet. 😢

10 hours ago, Nick24 said:

I guess I'll never be able to let it go. Is there any cure?

I think the best you can do is wipe the memory from your mind and only remember what you're fond of.  If you remember what's his names work, well, you're giving him credit that it was worth thinking about.  The best revenge, not remembering anything other than a handful of eps.  Forget the directors, writers and whoever supported the stuff that stunk.  After all, what they want is for you to remember.  If you can't recall anything that they have done, then that's a pretty good insult. 

I'll remember Dean being a badass that gave his all.  Anything else to add?  Otherwise, forget it was even canon.

[Nick24]

3 hours ago, 7kstar said:

I'll remember Dean being a badass that gave his all.  Anything else to add?  

Of course! Dean is kind, selfless, caring, brave, physically and mentally strong*, smart, loyal, attractive. He's the best friend/brother I could ever dream of. Dean is willing to give everything he has (incl. his own life) to make other people's lives better and safer. And on and on.

*Dean is the mentally strongest character I've ever seen. 

Edited August 2, 2022 by Nick24

[Pondlass1]

A bit off topic.  Wow, has anyone read the disastrous IMDb reviews of Andrew Dabb’s Resident Evil series on Netflix? I hope he stays miles away from The Winchesters. 😱

[gonzosgirrl]

10 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

A bit off topic.  Wow, has anyone read the disastrous IMDb reviews of Andrew Dabb’s Resident Evil series on Netflix? I hope he stays miles away from The Winchesters. 😱

I am 100% certain Hell would freeze over before Jensen let Badd anywhere near anything he does now or in the future.

Nobody will ever convince me that he (Badd) is not responsible for Jensen calling it quits on Dabbernatural. Don't even try.

[Nick24]

IMO There was no way Jensen would stay on that show after 14.14. I'm not sure he was interested in Jacknatural.

[ahrtee]

Sorry to beat this dead horse one more time, but today I read Kripke's interview in Deadline ( https://deadline.com/2023/08/supernatural-eric-kripke-interview-picket-line-writers-strike-residuals-writers-room-1235533157/ ) and it brought up (or back) some thoughts about what went wrong with Supernatural (IMO, of course):

Kripke mentioned the need for a "large writer's room" to make a show successful.  In particular, he said:

"Any good showrunner is only as good as their staff, and only as good as they’re willing to listen and be challenged. I always give the same speech for every show, which is, ‘Now that we’re inside this room, there are no labels or levels. We’re all trying to figure this out. There’s only one asshole in the room, and that’s me. And no one in this room is allowed to say no, except me. So let’s just start talking. And if you think I’m wrong in saying no, you have to get in my face and tell me.’ That’s how good shows get made…the minute people stop saying no to you, your sh*t is terrible. Every filmmaker who got powerful enough that they stopped saying no just starts making garbage. So I think it’s really important to have big staffs [and] really diverse staff." [emphasis mine]

So, just out of curiosity, I looked back at the SPN writers over the years.  Aside from the first season, when they were still figuring things out, there were 8 or 9 writers who pretty much stayed for most of years 1-10.  Aside from an occasional one-off episode or someone with story credit only, there were no more than two or so new writers per season, all of whom fit nicely with the others and also stayed for years.  Stories and characters (and lore!) stayed consistent because the writers knew what and who they were writing.

But in season 12, when Dabb took over, he began with a *whole new crew of writers.*  The only carryovers from the 11 previous years were himself, Berens, and Buck-Lemming (those most likely to follow his lead without question).  It seems to me that shows he had his own vision and chose new writers who wouldn't question or challenge it. It might also be why the new writers didn't seem to have a "bible" to let them know what lore had been established previously.  It just didn't matter any more in Dabb's world.  

I know this is nothing new and earth-shattering, but it somehow hadn't dawned on me that there were literally *none* of the original (or even the good later) writers in on the Dabb seasons. 

Kripke's comments on the need for writer collaboration brought back the bitterness that Dabb's vision/version of SPN had nothing whatsoever to do with the previous 11 years of lore, stories and character development.    

//rant off// Bitterness remains.   

ETA:  Apologies again.  My only excuse is that it's a  holiday, it's been too hot to go outside for days and I've had way too much time on my hands.  😀

Edited September 4, 2023 by ahrtee

[TenPea]

I always feel bad about what they did to Garth.  He had such potential as a "temp", then they went and turned him into a werewolf.