“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[Myrelle]

10 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Don't forget to add bully to that list.

Good point. Done. ;-)

[ILoveReading]

IMO, since Dabb has taken over, Dean has basically regressed to where he was in the pilot.  He's back to the blunt instrument who just does what he's told.  Except now his commanding officer is Supreme Leader Chief rather than John.  In fact its even worse because at least Dean had little ways of rebelling against John.

The brothers not being at odds basically gave Sam want he's wanted since Ruby.  Someone who doesn't question or disagree with him, just follows orders.  Dean's  only three responses are yes, no and how high.  If he does got against the supreme leader he apologizes for it and looks for absolution and approval.  Sam's far more of a dictator than Dean could ever hope to be. 

This is why I care about wanting Dean to be acknowledged as a leader.  It was just an important part of his journey.   Growing out of John's shadow to be a leader in his own right.  Hunters used to call him (Id be okay if this was shown to be both) but now its all Sam, Sam Sam and Sam again.  If there a task we see Sam assigning it.  There is no reason Dean can't ask no name red shirt to do something for him without checking in with Chief first.  If that takes away Sam's leadership they aren't really selling it in the first place.

These writers have an all or nothing approach, so by elevating Sam, the brothers aren't' equal.  Sam's in charge.  As I've said before, I never felt like Dean treated Sam as a flunkie with regards to hunting.  He saw him as an equal partner and its not like Sam ever really listened to Dean when it came to the big things.  Dean as a bossy, over controlling, mean bully was far more tell than show.  I can't think of many times when Sam didn't do exactly what he wanted regardless of what Dean said and did.

So IMO, making Sam a leader was completely necessary because the character really didn't' need it.  He's already had multiple story lines where he got the opportunity to step out of Dean's shadow.  Plus he was the focal character from the pilot.  He was the chosen one, the one who got the classic Campbellian hero journey, who everyone dotes on and talked about and worried about and fused over.   He already had to many other traits and qualities that the had no problem pointing out every chance they got.  Adding leader just seemed to be another thing to take from Dean.  Something Dabb started in s11 and continues.

Even Dean's trauma about being possessed was showed to be more of a burden on Sam.   He didn't have time to even shave, only neatly trim and groom that grief beard while taking care of every other task in the bunker and poor baby bird only sleeps two hours a night.  Dean hangs out in his room and eats pizza.    While Dean, gets shown to be a dick and bully, despite the fact that Kaia bragged about wanting to kill Clarire.  Dean's still the bad guy and there are million and one excuses why it's okay to let that kind of writing stand because Dean doesn't need to be defended.  But Sam makes a mistake, gets called out on it, but Bobby is the bad guy for pointing it out  Everybody jumps to his defense.   Dean saved Maggie but of course, Sam gets credit. 

If Dean ever got a major permanent injury, he'd get told to suck it up while everyone fussed and fawned over Sam to make sure he was holding up okay under this new burden.

This might be more unpopular opinion but I never felt like Sam was in Dean's shadow, it was far more that Jared was in Jensen's.   Dean often came across as dominate because Jensen played him that way more than was scripted.  (Season 4, and 9 being the exceptions but even those ended up revolving around Sam). 

It's Dean who needs to step out of Sam's shadow and discover who he is outside of a brother and a caretaker.  They started this with purgatory but it was dropped because, what a shock, Sam needed to be taken care of during the trials.  Dean becoming a General in the hunting community would have been a more more logical progression for him than Sam. Teaching and mentoring new hunters is something he's good at.  See- Freaks and Geeks.  Even Jared said Sam's not a leader, he prefers to be that guy in the back.  Sam's skill set was more becoming someone like Bobby.  There is nothing wrong with that.  There was room for both in this story.

That is why Dean being a leader and having it acknowledged is important to me.  That's why it bothered me when Sam suddenly announced "follow me'".  

There is no purpose for Dean anymore.  Sam doesn't need an caretaker anymore.  The only reason Dean isn't just another no-name Red shirt in Chief's army is because Jensen has screen presence.  The writing of him is even worse than it was in 12B.

I'd say the kindest thing Dabb could do for Dean would be to kill him off, but knowing Dabb, Dean would probably trip over a shoelace, and fall down the stars and break his neck.  

TL/DR The show making Sam a leader took everything away from Dean because it was the last role he had on this show.

Edited January 10, 2019 by ILoveReading

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

It's Dean who needs to step out of Sam's shadow and discover who he is outside of a brother and a caretaker.  They started this with purgatory but it was dropped because, what a shock, Sam needed to be taken care of during the trials.  Dean becoming a General in the hunting community would have been a more more logical progression for him than Sam. Teaching and mentoring new hunters is something he's good at.  See- Freaks and Geeks.  Even Jared said Sam's not a leader, he prefers to be that guy in the back.  Sam's skill set was more becoming someone like Bobby.  There is nothing wrong with that.  There was room for both in this story.

Just more canon that Dabb and co. have trampled over in their attempts to make Sam and Sam's story what the Sam fandom clamors for instead of what would have been organic to the story.

So for all those who feel that Carver was the worst thing to ever happen to Sam, Dabb is "balancing" that out in his own fashion, IMO, by making the Dean fandom feel just as strongly(and possibly even more so) that he(Dabb) is by far the worst thing to ever happen to the Dean character-the only difference in my mind being that the Dean fandom expected this, and many of us even called it after Brother's Keeper aired because it had happened so many times before and that episode involved the  same type of canon-breaking writing and dialogue that has always signalled and been the precursor to it in the past.

That episode was a joke as far as canon and continuity of storylines was concerned and that was why the premiere of S11 DID come as somewhat of a surprise to the Dean fandom, but the surprise lasted all of one episode because then we got Form and Void.

And I further think that Dabb was stepping in and poised to take over with his own "vision" of things even at that juncture of the show. All he could talk about at Comic Con that summer was the new and exciting role that Sam would be stepping into in the ensuing season and we now know what that was-as least in his mind. And even if it didn't translate to the screen as well as he'd hoped it would back then for some in the Sam fandom-for whatever reason-he's certainly making sure, with all of his showrunning might, that it translates now-and once again at the expense of a potentially awesome Dean/JA storyline and once again at the expense of the Dean character, too.

So whereas Carver might have turned out to be more of a terrible anomaly for some in the Sam fandom, as far as showrunners go, Dabb has become the worst one in a long line of same shit, different day showrunners for the Dean fandom.

That's how it feels to me, anyway, but I also don't expect anyone or everyone to agree with that thought or opinion either.

Edited January 10, 2019 by Myrelle

[gonzosgirrl]

13 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

So whereas Carver might have turned out to be more of a terrible anomaly for some in the Sam fandom, as far as showrunners go, Dabb has become the worst one in a long line of same shit, different day showrunners for the Dean fandom.

That's how it feels to me, anyway, but I also don't expect anyone or everyone to agree with that thought or opinion either.

I certainly agree with your thoughts, especially this one.

And honestly, when it comes right down to it, Sam's actions in S8 weren't all that far out of character in my opinion. Walking away was always, if not easy for him, certainly well within his self-centered nature. That might not be a bad thing, and it's probably the healthy thing, but it's not the thing that gives fans the warm fuzzies when it comes to fictional characters. Perceptions vary, but also IMO, it was Sam were supposed to side with, given the way Dean's hurt feelings were dismissed and once again, he acquiesced to Sam's ultimatum. And then he was rewarded with the trials while Dean was relegated to cheerleader/caretaker. So yeah, I'd take the equivalent of his abuse of Sam over Dabb's seasons-long destruction of Dean. And worse, Dabb is almost certainly going to be the one leading the show to its end - so there will be no white knight to undo all the damage he's done (and will do).

[ILoveReading]

Agree, and with Carver I don't think he ever intended for Sam to look bad.  All the pre-series press was about how mature Sam was and how much he had grown and how Dean was just being mean.  The writing in the early episodes back up Sam too,especially Southern Comfort.

When Dabb saw that the whole Amelia thing went over like a lead balloon he dropped it as fast a she could.  I understand it was supposed to be Amelia that Crowley killed not Sarah.  Then he gave Sam the trials to make up for it.  Sam even got a big scene to unburden years of upset that Dean had other people in his life and that that hurt Sam's feelings and Dean had to grovel.  Dean never got a scene like that.  The closest was Mary and even that put more emphasis on Sam's trauma.  It seemed like it had the opposite effect too.  Mary now notices Sam is the best leader ever and Dean who?

In season 9, Carver gave Sam a storyline that Jared called a wet dream and said if fans didn't like it, it was on him.  Like, love or hate that story at least they gave Jared and opportunity to play Gadreel and it wasn't dropped five minutes after it started.  IMO, there was plenty of follow up and Sam was allowed to be angry. 

Even in season 9 when Dean had the mark, Sam didn't just make soup and beg Dean to take care of him.  He was given a proactive story, with the book of the damned and he got to be the one to offer to sacrifice himself again.

Sam even got another chance to confront Lucifer in s11 and tell him to go f--- himself.  That was shown, on screen with a trip down memory lane.  Not a 10 second blink and you'll miss it.

I think everything Dabb is doing is deliberate.  He has no use for Dean and only writes for him to throw a bone to the Dean fans so they won't leave.  He continues to take from Dean without giving him anything in return.  If they wanted to give Sam the leader ship role, than they could have given Dean a mentor/trainer type role.  But nope, Sam gets it all.  He's the leader, researcher, teacher, trainer, and mentor and weapons expert.   There is no aspect that Dabb hasnt' handed off to Sam. 

29 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And worse, Dabb is almost certainly going to be the one leading the show to its end - so there will be no white knight to undo all the damage he's done (and will do).

Agree.  There will be no trials storyline for Dean, or any heroic world saving.  The show won't even acknowledge that Lucifer needed to be stopped.  I'm sure they're going to bring him back at some point.  This is not a spoiler, its pure speculation based the shows obsession with him.

Honestly, I wish Dabb would treat Dean just as badly as Carver treated Sam.

Edited January 10, 2019 by ILoveReading

[devlin]

I don’t see how season 8 was so terrible for sam. Carver made sure he gave an excuse for every bit of Sam’s behaviour that would have given people pause. He gave up hunting, but that’s cause he was traumatised by everyone he loved dying, which in the hands of a more sympathetic actor would have been understandable. He returned to hunting by his brothers side even if it meant giving up his chance of normal. He sacrificed his happiness with someone else just so he could be there for his needy brother. He got to heroically do the trials, he saved bobby from endless torment in hell and sent him to heaven. 

Dabb on the other hand has intended for dean to come across as a useless weak bully whose mere existence prevented sam from becoming who he truly is, which is a magnificent leader/hunter whom even demons look up to and respect. 

[AwesomO4000]

4 hours ago, Myrelle said:

So 8 and 9 worked plenty good as a balance to 4 and 5 for this Deanfan-and all aspects of both of them, tbh-but again, I would never expect any Samfan or even a bibro who just hates the brothers fighting and now wants to avoid that at all costs to agree with that sentiment or even consider it.

While I disagree, but not for the reason you give.

Season 4 and 5 while centering on Sam gave Dean plenty of his own arcs. Dean got entire episodes almost exclusively dedicated to only him - like "the End" - he got to kill big bads like Zachariah, he got his own character associated almost exclusively with him (Castiel) who would remain with the show, focused on him, influenced by him, etc. for seasons to come. Sure Ruby was associated with Sam, but she was manipulating Sam and cared only to destroy him and was gone in two seasons. Big difference in my opinion. In season 8 and 9, Sam - except for the trial arc, which was doomed for failure from the beginning - was given almost nothing. He was the damsel in distress and the brother who was wrong about everything - Dean wasn't dead and he should have looked for him, Benny was good, Amelia - as much as they tried to push it - wasn't the love of his life, Gadreel turned out to be a hero, Sam would do the same thing as Dean would. - on and on and on. In the end when it mattered, not once was Sam shown as being in the right. He was the wrong brother every time. He had no episode focus of his own - unless it was a lesson to be learned that Dean was right ("Mother's Little Helper"). A character that had a connection to him - Crowley - was transferred over to Dean as well, so Dean had both Crowley and Castiel associated with him. The big bad - Abaddon - was about Dean and killed by Dean. Sam's "storyline" ended up not being so much about Sam at all. It was about Dean, and Dean's feelings on it - which is why the focus of shots was generally on Dean's reaction rather than Sam's - and it was about Gadreel and his redemption.

I guess the bottom line is that no matter what happened to Dean in terms of the plotline in season 4 and 5, it was never put into question - in my opinion - that Dean was a good man who loved his brother and tried his hardest to do what was right. Sam did not get the same consideration in seasons 8 and 9. In my opinion, his character was trashed or put aside to prop up Carver's pets Benny and Gadreel who were the "better brother" and the misunderstood redeemed hero who had a bigger role in saving the world than Sam did. For me the equivalent there would be that instead of Dean at least being there in season 5's finale, Ruby came back from the dead and had seen the error of her ways and helped save the world, because that's pretty close to what happened in season 9 with Gadreel while Sam was unconscious somewhere with no role at all.

So in other words, I do not feel that those seasons are "a balance" at all and it has little to do with the Bi-bro thing. It has to do with character damage. I don't even mind Sam and Dean fighting or having disagreements on things as long as both are given a legitimate point. In seasons 8 and 9, in the end, Sam was always wrong - about Dean being dead, about not looking for him, about Benny, about Amelia, about the trials, about Abaddon, about Gadreel, about not going to extremes to save Dean. In the end, not once was Sam ever right or shown to have even a legitimate position that I saw. Even if in the end Sam was sort of right about jumping in the cage, he was completely wrong about the blood drinking, Ruby, killing Lilith, and a lot of other things. Dean wasn't always in the wrong like Sam was shown to be in seasons 8 and 9. Huge difference in my opinion.

5 hours ago, Myrelle said:

But the "brothers must be at odds at all times" thing being done away with came at the expense of Dean's POV. 

I didn't see this at all. I thought that Dean had plenty of focus in season 11. *shrug*

5 hours ago, Myrelle said:

I mean, from where I sit, JP has had the job of softening a sometimes self-involved asshole who really only just wanted a life of his own, but who is often supported and looked after by his loved ones anyway and who is, at his core, really a natural born leader of men; and JA has been given the task of softening a character who, at his core, is predominantly a natural born killer(and who sometimes even enjoys torturing too!), who gets very little support from his loved ones because he doesn't really need it that much.

Well, Sam was also given the burden of being arrogant and "abandons the family." Dean was always the one who was loyal to his family and did what he could to save the world and his family. Really in my opinion, there isn't much to be done in terms f having to "soften" that. That "natural born killer" thing is not written into the show. I don't care what the writers say, I go by what they show... and one small arc where after years of torture Dean breaks and maybe likes giving it back and then is horrified about it? ... Does not a "natural born killer" make and is already softened in my opinion.

Being given a character who says "enh I didn't think it was my problem" and shrugs his shoulders about looking for Dean and abandoning Kevin... how in the heck does one "soften" that while not being given any kind of even one line of dialogue to explain it? I'm sorry but in my opinion, that's just too much of a task to do while at the same time going with the writer's intent.

For me, in contrast, I thought Sam in season 6 and 7 did a great job with making Sam relatable and sympathetic. The difference was the writing for his character wasn't awful and he wasn't given out of character things he had to portray.

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

In season 9, Carver gave Sam a storyline that Jared called a wet dream and said if fans didn't like it, it was on him.  Like, love or hate that story at least they gave Jared and opportunity to play Gadreel and it wasn't dropped five minutes after it started.  IMO, there was plenty of follow up and Sam was allowed to be angry. 

I think there's a distinction here. Season 9 gave Jared a great storyline, but that ended up being for Gadreel... not Sam. Whatever set up they might have shown Jared in the beginning of season 9, that was turned on it's head and Sam turned into the hypocrite bad guy by the end of it. The total retcon in "King if the Damned" made sure of that, making it seem like Sam's possession portrayed earlier in the season and which showed some promise as a storyline turned into being no big deal and Sam's fault for not knowing that Gadreel was actually a bad guy. The backpedaling and propping of Gadreel was - in my opinion - ridiculous and done at Sam's character's expense.

In my opinion, sure Sam was "allowed to be angry," but then he was shown to be wrong for being angry, because yes, he would do what Dean did and oh, by the way, Gadreel really wasn't evil, he was just "misunderstood" and anyway even if he wasn't, Sam was wrong not to know Gadreel was a threat to begin with. That "King of the Damned" conversation really is awful in terms of blaming things on Sam. Read it carefully and see exactly what it says and implies. It at the same time says that Gadreel wasn't really evil, just misunderstood, but when he was a threat, it was Sam's fault anyway for not realizing it sooner. And yup, I read it carefully many times - that's what that conversation with Castiel says.

And all of the follow up was that Sam was wrong ...not only for not being understanding enough to Dean, but in that Gadreel turned out to be heroic and helped them save the world. And Sam was forced to support Gadreel and call him a "friend." I didn't see that story arc as a positive for Sam... like at all. Sam ended up looking like the bad guy in his own possession and deception and then had to support his possessor and play a lesser role to that possessor when the world saving began.

6 minutes ago, devlin said:

I don’t see how season 8 was so terrible for sam. Carver made sure he gave an excuse for every bit of Sam’s behaviour that would have given people pause. He gave up hunting, but that’s cause he was traumatised by everyone he loved dying, which in the hands of a more sympathetic actor would have been understandable. He returned to hunting by his brothers side even if it meant giving up his chance of normal. He sacrificed his happiness with someone else just so he could be there for his needy brother. He got to heroically do the trials, he saved bobby from endless torment in hell and sent him to heaven. 

Because season 8 didn't actually show this that I saw. In my opinion, it's hard to portray a character who was "traumatized by everyone he loved dying" when a scene showing that wasn't shown, but instead dialogue about how "I didn't think it was my responsibility" while abandoning Kevin - complete with ignored Kevin phone messages to drive that point home - were shown. The "happiness" he supposedly sacrificed never translated, especially because Sam had left Amelia before he even came across Dean in the first place.

And then there was the added Benny hate / jealousy / whatever that was put in there, and of course poor, woobie (in my opinion) Benny was just a good guy Sam disliked for no reason. And then there was "Citizen Fang." I fail to see how anyone could have made that in any way anything but Sam assassination. The entire thing was set up as poor, good Benny and his innocent relative who Sam destroyed because of jealousy. I don't think anything could have changed the intention of that episode in my opinion. I guess when he writes an episode on his own, we see what Daniel Loflin really thinks of Sam's character.

And for me, the trials were not some great gift. Sam did fail to finish them after all. That whole storyline didn't show that Sam was heroic and wanted to make a difference - a characteristic Sam previously did have in season 6 and 7 by the way - but that all that am really needed was for his brother to acknowledge him.

I have never understood how so many fans who at the same time complain when the narrative seems to say that Dean is all about Sam, then point to the trial arc as such a huge gift of an arc for Sam when it pretty much said the same thing, except that Sam is basically all about wanting Dean's approval.

So to sum up: in season 8: Sam abandoned Dean and Kevin and apparently didn't think the latter was his responsibility, was mean to an innocent vampire and his family, broke up with a needy woman who appeared to be annoying at best and then tried to claim he was giving up his dream of a normal  life (which Sam hadn't shown any interest in since at least season 5, by the way), and then stopped doing the trials and a potential chance to do something good for the world, because all Sam really wanted was to get approval from Dean. I personally don't see how that looks anything but bad myself, but obviously miles vary.

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Whatever set up they might have shown Jared in the beginning of season 9, that was turned on it's head and Sam turned into the hypocrite bad guy by the end of it.

I don't agree with this at all.  Sam might have come to forgive Gadreel but he never forgave Dean, and I think he still hasn't.   Sam got lots of sympathetic treatment as aw poor Sammy while Dean was called all kinds of nasty names. 

 

3 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

am abandoned Dean and Kevin and apparently didn't think the latter was his responsibility,

Sam was given a chance to apologize to Kevin (who did not accuse Sam of having a pity party) and it was never really mentioned again after that.  It was never a big thing beyond that first episode.

[devlin]

20 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

 

So to sum up: in season 8: Sam abandoned Dean and Kevin and apparently didn't think the latter was his responsibility, was mean to an innocent vampire and his family, broke up with a needy woman who appeared to be annoying at best and then tried to claim he was giving up his dream of a normal  life (which Sam hadn't shown any interest in since at least season 5, by the way), and then stopped doing the trials and a potential chance to do something good for the world, because all Sam really wanted was to get approval from Dean. I personally don't see how that looks anything but bad myself, but obviously miles vary.

I know plenty will disagree but i personally think a lot of it comes back to the acting.  The Show doesn’t always spell things out, I mean the only way I can tell what dean is feeling is through Jensen’s non verbal acting. IMHO Jared only acts what’s written but if he played sam as traumatised instead of bitchy it would have been a different story 

Edited January 10, 2019 by devlin

[DeeDee79]

1 hour ago, devlin said:

I know plenty will disagree but i personally think a lot of it comes back to the acting.  The Show doesn’t always spell things out, I mean the only way I can tell what dean is feeling is through Jensen’s non verbal acting. IMHO Jared only acts what’s written but if he played sam as traumatised instead of bitchy it would have been a different story 

I co-sign this 100%.

[AwesomO4000]

52 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I don't agree with this at all.  Sam might have come to forgive Gadreel but he never forgave Dean, and I think he still hasn't.   Sam got lots of sympathetic treatment as aw poor Sammy while Dean was called all kinds of nasty names. 

What nasty names was Dean called? I don't really remember any, but I admit that since I dislike much of season 9 and don't rewatch it, I could be forgetting something.

And I agree Sam did get some sympathetic treatment, but that was in the first half of the season. The last part of the season changed everything, for me. One episode after we had Sam's supposed "hard truths" (which I still say bullcrap on, because that scene had Sam lie - as admitted at the end of the season - and focus on everything but what Dean actually did wrong), and which focused on Dean's reaction, we had that scene in "Captives" where Kevin tells Dean and Sam to "get over it" and that family was more important (likely authorial intent, too, showing that there was going to be a change in tone) and they have Sam lie again (rather than have Sam say something like "I'll try, Kevin, but it's hard" or something more sympathetic to Sam like that) and then focus on Dean's face sympathetically as Sam leaves coldly and without seeing any of Sam's reaction or what he's feeling. My interpretation of that scene was that the writers were showing Sam as in the wrong, first for lying about the situation and then by coldly leaving. The intent to me looked like "okay Sam should just get over his being hurt now, because Dean's his family... No matter that Dean didn't apologize for anything or anything like that, Sam's just being a jerk... see how he hurt Dean's feelings." And everything went downhill for Sam from there - with the exception of "thinman" which ended up being out of context I think, because none of the other episodes had that tone. By "Mother's Little Helper" we had Dean taking over as being in the lead and Sam saying that Dean was right.

Dean's single-handed decisions were generally justified like his decision concerning Abaddon which to me was a kind of backhanded way of saying that Dean making decisions for Sam even if he doesn't like it is generally justified and Sam just doesn't understand that or his place well enough. The end of the season gave another example of this when Dean single-handedly decided to take Sam out of the fight against Metatron, but they were still victorious in defeating him. When Sam makes single-handed decisions like that - as in season 4 and season 10 - apocalypses happen, but when Dean does it, the ends justify his decisions. Sure Dean "died" but it wasn't like that wasn't going to happen anyway eventually - he was already getting very ill because he wasn't killing enough - so really not much of a comment on what Dean doing as being the wrong thing to do there. Meanwhile Gadreel is redeemed and helps to save the day. So Dean is justified, while Sam was turned into a liar and a hypocrite when he did do exactly as Dean said he would and tried to bring Dean back when Dean didn't want to be brought back (which, in my opinion, is why the "The Purge" speech only focused on that aspect - where Sam could later be "proven wrong" and as a liar - rather than the lying Dean did which is what actually was the thing that did the most damage (until that was retconned, too - see below) to Sam.)

And then there's the conversation in "King of the Damned" which retcons much of the sympathetic treatment Sam supposedly got in the first half of the season by saying that Gadreel didn't feel evil (meaning: see, Gadreel wasn't so bad, what was Sam even whining about in the beginning of the season?) and has Sam say that he did actually feel a presence - and when did we ever see that in the beginning of the season? - and that the he (Sam) was wrong for not realizing that Gadreel had been a threat before Kevin got killed. I think that pretty much cemented where the writers thought the sympathy lay... and it wasn't with Sam. They pretty much blamed Sam for his own possession - which now really wasn't that bad anyway - and/or not realizing he was possessed by Gadreel, and so by default, much of Kevin's, death was on him (Sam). And I didn't make that up or it was just my interpretation. That's what that conversation actually says.

So, in my opinion, so much for being sympathetic to Sam.

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Sam was given a chance to apologize to Kevin (who did not accuse Sam of having a pity party) and it was never really mentioned again after that.  It was never a big thing beyond that first episode.

Damage already done. If it wasn't a big thing then why include it and have an entire scene of it - complete with memorable "Eeeeat me!" dialogue - and with Dean reprimanding Sam for it to begin with? It was there for a reason, in my opinion, and that was to further the case that Sam was wrong to give up hunting***, abandon Kevin and Dean, and to give further evidence that pet Benny was a "better brother" than Sam was. We later had Benny end up being not only good, but heroically so, and we had Bobby reprimanding Sam for not looking for Dean to back up these first impressions.

So for me, it was there for a reason or it wouldn't have been there at all.

*** (I don't believe all of the retroactive "Sam was being "'mature'" rhetoric - the narrative showed the opposite of that, so I don't believe them one bit. I think it was after the fact damage control. "We didn't mean to make look Sam like the worst brother ever..." even though they then gave us a loyal, sacrificial Benny to show that yeah, that actually was their intention.)

1 hour ago, devlin said:

I know plenty will disagree but i personally think a lot of it comes back to the acting.  The Show doesn’t always spell things out, I mean the only way I can tell what dean is feeling is through Jensen’s non verbal acting. IMHO Jared only acts what’s written but if he played sam as traumatised instead of bitchy it would have been a different story

I agree somewhat in that I thought that the bitchy was a strange choice, but there must have been some reason he played it that way. The writers, directors, etc, must have told him something along those lines. Maybe it was supposed to increase the "surprise" when we found out Sam's motivation at the end of season 8's finale. Mostly I just thought that Carver had no idea what he was doing when it came to Sam and that he should have paid more attention to seasons 6 and 7 first before writing Sam that awful crap.

As for playing traumatized, I think Jared did do that to an extent with the one scene we got that actually related to that, but Carver chose to skip any kind of flashbacks that might show us scenes where we might have been able to see Sam's trauma and sympathize with him and instead decided to give us a love triangle, soap opera complete with surprise Not Dead! Husband that gave as almost zero insight in to Sam's character and had almost no continuity with who Sam had been in season 6B and 7, and even made shit up like pretending that Sam didn't actually have 3 plus years of normal life in college and had an actual love of his life who very likely celebrated his birthday at some point.

Unless the thing he never had before that Sam was referring to was a dog that he previously ran over and adopted in which case I might have to rethink Sam's character a bit. ; ) Considering one of Sam's favorite memories in heaven was of his dog, Bones, he had for a week, maybe that actually was what Sam was referring to. (Which maybe would make more sense, in my opinion, than train wreck Amelia.)

[devlin]

With season 8 fresh in my mind and the writers intentions, did anyone neutral ever call sam out on his behaviour towards dean the way Charlie told dean that once again he had destroyed sam’s chance at happiness.

[DeeDee79]

15 minutes ago, devlin said:

With season 8 fresh in my mind and the writers intentions, did anyone neutral ever call sam out on his behaviour towards dean the way Charlie told dean that once again he had destroyed sam’s chance at happiness.

The only thing that comes to mind is Bobby's reaction in Taxi Driver to him not looking for Dean in Purgatory. But Charlie's reaction was a big wtf moment for me. Shut up, Charlie.

[tessathereaper]

4 hours ago, devlin said:

I know plenty will disagree but i personally think a lot of it comes back to the acting.  The Show doesn’t always spell things out, I mean the only way I can tell what dean is feeling is through Jensen’s non verbal acting. IMHO Jared only acts what’s written but if he played sam as traumatised instead of bitchy it would have been a different story 

Same, I've said since the beginning of the show that Jensen just gives Dean more depth.  Right from the start Dean felt like he had a life lived behind him and it was one of the major things that drew people to the show, it wasn't so much that wanted to know what kind of world Sam had run away from so much as they wanted to know the world Dean lived in(it may not sound that different but it is), which was one of the early accidental tensions in the writing.  Sam was the supposed to be the point of view figure whose eyes we saw that world through, where we discovered it, but by and large Dean was the character who made the world seem real so that POV thing didn't really work because for whatever reason Jensen as an actor just seemed better at it than Jared it. The audience wanted to know what shaped him, what made him like he was, what this world on the fringes(ah the good old days when it felt like hunting was a shadowy dangerous fringe world rather than "The Hunting Army Wants You! You Too Can Be a Hero!").  Alot of what was discussed above was practically handed to Sam to make him sympathetic, give him excuse after excuse for insensitive behavior or even outright say he was absolutely right, and if it didn't work, I wouldn't necessarily put all the blame on the writers, though they do mostly suck at this point.

31 minutes ago, devlin said:

With season 8 fresh in my mind and the writers intentions, did anyone neutral ever call sam out on his behaviour towards dean the way Charlie told dean that once again he had destroyed sam’s chance at happiness.

I don't think ANY character EVER in the history of the show has ever called out Sam on his behavior towards Dean.  I really don't.  Dean has been called out multiple times, often for stuff that he doesn't deserve to be called out on.  Because Sam is supposed to be Captain Empathy(which he's never really convincingly conveyed) so of course you aren't supposed to think he's anything but understanding and long suffering in his behavior towards Dean.  Sam doesn't get called out because IMO the writers have never believed he should be, no matter how awful or insensitive or condescending he is towards Dean, they don't actually seem to realize that Sam's behavior comes across that way. 

[AwesomO4000]

41 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

I don't think ANY character EVER in the history of the show has ever called out Sam on his behavior towards Dean. 

As DeeDee79 and I both said above, Bobby called Sam out for not looking for Dean. He pretty much said that Sam was a jerk for not looking for him, which is why I never believed that the writers thought that it was somehow "mature," or if they did, they went back on it pretty quickly and had Bobby express their opinion that it was the wrong thing to do. Bobby also told Sam in season 10 (in his note) that Sam shouldn't be lying to Dean, but should instead tell him the truth and that Dean would understand. Actually I think everyone and their dog - Castiel, Charlie, Rowena, Crowley, too I think, random bad guys - told Sam he shouldn't be lying to Dean. So off the top of my head, there are two examples.

For me, I guess Kevin's "Get over it" might also apply, because it was pretty obvious - to me anyway - that that was directed at Sam and not Dean. I'm pretty sure that Crowley also either said or strongly implied to Sam that he was better to and for Dean than Sam was and that Dean was happier with him (Crowley) than Sam.

41 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

Sam doesn't get called out because IMO the writers have never believed he should be, no matter how awful or insensitive or condescending he is towards Dean, they don't actually seem to realize that Sam's behavior comes across that way. 

If I wanted to get picky, I could say that I think the writers call Sam out a lot through consequences... because generally whenever Sam tries to do anything against what Dean wants, the writers usually make sure that not only is Sam wrong, but that Very Bad Things Happen to punish him. Interestingly, they do the same thing to Castiel. When Castiel does anything Dean tells him not to do, again, he's wrong and Very Bad Things Happen.

Edited January 11, 2019 by AwesomO4000

[DeeDee79]

12 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I'm pretty sure that Crowley also either said or strongly implied to Sam that he was better to and for Dean than Sam was and that Dean was happier with him (Crowley) than Sam.

This should definitely be taken with a grain of salt since he also said that Dean "completes me" as well as referring to Dean as his "bestie" during the same conversation. Everything that he said during that scene seemed deliberate in order to rile Sam up for his own purposes.

12 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

If I wanted to get picky, I could say that I think the writers call Sam out a lot through consequences... because generally whenever Sam tries to do anything against what Dean wants, the writers usually make sure that not only is Sam wrong, but that Very Bad Things Happen to punish him. Interestingly, they do the same thing to Castiel. When Castiel does anything Dean tells him not to do, again, he's wrong and Very Bad Things Happen.

I think that the difference between the two is that while the writing may show Sam's actions causing bad consequences he's not usually called out by other characters. Castiel frequently is either to his face or during discussions between characters of said actions. I would say that Dean is as well. Also fandom ( from what I've seen ) is more likely to bash Dean over his actions than they do to Sam or to Cas.

Edited January 11, 2019 by DeeDee79

[AwesomO4000]

1 minute ago, DeeDee79 said:

This should definitely be taken with a grain of salt since he also said that Dean "completes me" as well as referring to Dean as his "bestie" during the same conversation. Everything that he said during that scene seemed deliberate in order to rile Sam up for his own purposes.

Oh, no I agree with you that it wasn't necessarily true per se, but I do believe that Crowley thought so... that's why Crowley was so hurt that Demon Dean later rejected him. I think Crowley really did think that he - both before when he went with Dean to get the mark of Cain and later with Demon Dean - was helping Dean out while mean, old Sam was being mean to him and holding Dean back from his "potential" and that Dean would end up realizing this and being his "bestie" afterwards. Crowley seemed entirely surprised that that wasn't the case when Demon Dean turned on him.

Besides that crap that Charlie said about Dean supposedly "ruining Sam's chance at happiness" wasn't really true either, because for one thing Dean is an unreliable narrator and likely didn't give Charlie the entire story and secondly we knew it wasn't true either, because we knew-  even if Charlie didn't - that Sam left Amelia before he even met up with Dean because he supposedly didn't want to break up a marriage. And even when Sam ended going back to Amelia and committing adultery*** - thanks for that Carver, really, tell me again how that's "mature" and you're not trying to assassinate Sam's character - he still left her and chose hunting, so we know it wasn't true.

So basically what I'm saying is that while both things aren't true per se, in my opinion, they are still technically examples of characters calling Sam or Dean out concerning their brother.

*** Having Sam knowingly commit adultery by sleeping  with a married woman was yet another example of something that came and went but was still a way Carver got in his digs to assassinate Sam's character and make Sam look badly in season 8. Why even bother to do that except to make Sam look badly?

[DeeDee79]

6 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Having Sam knowingly commit adultery by sleeping  with a married woman was yet another example of something that came and went but was still a way Carver got in his digs to assassinate Sam's character and make Sam look badly in season 8. Why even bother to do that except to make Sam look badly?

This wasn’t exactly a black and white situation. Yes, it’s morally wrong to sleep with a married individual but considering that he had just been involved with Amelia thinking that she was free and clear of other attachments his actions weren’t out of the ordinary for someone who has a hard time letting go of someone that they felt love for.

[devlin]

53 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

As DeeDee79 and I both said above, Bobby called Sam out for not looking for Dean. He pretty much said that Sam was a jerk for not looking for him, which is why I never believed that the writers thought that it was somehow "mature," or if they did, they went back on it pretty quickly and had Bobby express their opinion that it was the wrong thing to do. Bobby also told Sam in season 10 (in his note) that Sam shouldn't be lying to Dean, but should instead tell him the truth and that Dean would understand. Actually I think everyone and their dog - Castiel, Charlie, Rowena, Crowley, too I think, random bad guys - told Sam he shouldn't be lying to Dean. So off the top of my head, there are two examples.

For me, I guess Kevin's "Get over it" might also apply, because it was pretty obvious - to me anyway - that that was directed at Sam and not Dean. I'm pretty sure that Crowley also either said or strongly implied to Sam that he was better to and for Dean than Sam was and that Dean was happier with him (Crowley) than Sam.

If I wanted to get picky, I could say that I think the writers call Sam out a lot through consequences... because generally whenever Sam tries to do anything against what Dean wants, the writers usually make sure that not only is Sam wrong, but that Very Bad Things Happen to punish him. Interestingly, they do the same thing to Castiel. When Castiel does anything Dean tells him not to do, again, he's wrong and Very Bad Things Happen.

I don’t actually care about the consequences of their actions in a big picture sense coz they have all done shady things but rather behaviour directed at dean. I feel he tends to get forgotten, like the way he is treated and his well being are of no concern

[DeeDee79]

3 minutes ago, devlin said:

I feel he tends to get forgotten, like the way he is treated and his well being are of no concern

Besides Jody and occasionally Cas does anyone ever ask Dean how he’s feeling? It’s very sad to think about. 😔

[Cambion]

20 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

25 minutes ago, devlin said:

I feel he tends to get forgotten, like the way he is treated and his well being are of no concern

Besides Jody and occasionally Cas does anyone ever ask Dean how he’s feeling? It’s very sad to think about. 😔

 

Actually, that's par for the course for his personality type.  the loyal person who is always there taking care of and protecting everyone is overlooked.  They are just expected to be there, like the walls and roof always are, providing shelter.  They are the helper, not the helpee.  Think about somebody in your life who is always there when you need them, without asking, quietly doing what needs to be done, rarely sharing their feelings or asking for help for themselves.  You'll probably think of someone, and you'll probably realize that you don't worry a lot about them, because you rarely, if ever, see them except when they are helping you or others. That's a type of person people don't worry about, or check in with.  *shrug*  It's just how it is.....

[DeeDee79]

3 minutes ago, Cambion said:

 

Actually, that's par for the course for his personality type.  the loyal person who is always there taking care of and protecting everyone is overlooked.  They are just expected to be there, like the walls and roof always are, providing shelter.  They are the helper, not the helpee.  Think about somebody in your life who is always there when you need them, without asking, quietly doing what needs to be done, rarely sharing their feelings or asking for help for themselves.  You'll probably think of someone, and you'll probably realize that you don't worry a lot about them, because you rarely, if ever, see them except when they are helping you or others. That's a type of person people don't worry about, or check in with.  *shrug*  It's just how it is.....

This may be true in real life but within the context of the show it would be nice to see and to hear.

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

This may be true in real life but within the context of the show it would be nice to see and to hear.

This is exactly right.  I know plenty of people IRL like that but since I'm watching   aTV show about the supernatural and Big Damn Heroes, I would like for the show to acknowledge in a consistent vocal manner via other characters that Dean is a Big Damn Hero and accomplished leader, and not just the helper in life. 

[Cambion]

1 minute ago, DeeDee79 said:

This may be true in real life but within the context of the show it would be nice to see and to hear.

I agree with you totally, but writers tend to treat their characters the same way they treat real people.  Which is why y'all are talking about how certain writers like Sam or Nick better and are writing them the best stuff at the expense of other characters like Dean.  Not that it's okay, because a good writer services all their characters as they deserve within the story and not based on their own personal idiosyncrasies.  Unfortunately, that's just human nature.  (Besides, since I'm the "good ol ' <insert my first name here>, they won't mind if we forget them/use them up/take them for granted/screw them outright to cater to our own selfishness" person in my circle of friends and family I know that it's not something most humans do knowingly.  I highly doubt the writers realize they are doing some of these things because it's how they treat the real people in their lives, too.  They give more to those they like than to those they don't.)

Also, when we have a favorite character they become real to us.  We want them to be treated fairly and cherished the way we cherish them.  So, I guess that's why I just fill in the blanks for the characters I really care about.  Don't want to make myself crazy over it.

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

This is exactly right.  I know plenty of people IRL like that but since I'm watching   aTV show about the supernatural and Big Damn Heroes, I would like for the show to acknowledge in a consistent vocal manner via other characters that Dean is a Big Damn Hero and accomplished leader, and not just the helper in life. 

Me, too!   But I guess I'm just too practical for my own damn good.  Perhaps it is time to get mad.  :)

[DeeDee79]

1 minute ago, Cambion said:

Also, when we have a favorite character they become real to us.  We want them to be treated fairly and cherished the way we cherish them.  So, I guess that's why I just fill in the blanks for the characters I really care about.  Don't want to make myself crazy over it.

This is true but on a show that thrives more on tell rather than show in regards to its storytelling there’s no reason why Dean can’t be the recipient of the telling of why he’s so damn awesome as opposed to his fans knowing it and needing to fill in the blanks IMO. It shouldn’t be either or because it isn’t with many of the other characters and it would be appreciated.

[AwesomO4000]

43 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Besides Jody and occasionally Cas does anyone ever ask Dean how he’s feeling? It’s very sad to think about. 😔

Bobby did quite a few times. Season 5 and 7 especially come to mind. And season 3. I can't imagine that Garth never has either, since that seems to be in his personality. And though I'm sure a lot of people won't agree with me, I think that Sam did also. Quite a bit actually. Often Sam is ignored or rebuffed though or gets an "I'm fine" for an answer. I could list a bunch of examples when Sam was concerned about how Dean was doing and/or asked him how he was feeling, but no one wants me to do that, so let's just pretend that I did and that the list was impressive. ; )   (Of note however is that likely very few if any of those examples would come from season 8 or 9, because I think Carver decided to ignore that aspect of Sam's personality along with a bunch of other aspects.)

I've seen some people say that Sam bugs Dean too much about how he feels though and should just leave Dean alone... so I guess Sam loses either way.

I alo seem to remember Dean saying once - though I can't for the life of me remember the context now - (paraphrase): "If one more person asks me if I'm alright I'm going to start punching people."

So I don't think that it's that other characters don't ask Dean how he's feeling - I actually think they do, quite often - it's that Dean often seems to be uncomfortable with people asking him things like that and tries to shrug it off, so eventually people listen and think they're just making Dean uncomfortable and/or he doesn't want them to ask him things like that and so they don't do it as often.

[DeeDee79]

5 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

seem to remember Dean saying once - though I can't for the life of me remember the context now - (paraphrase): "If one more person asks me if I'm alright I'm going to start punching people."

 

It was right after John died. Dean is considerably more open with his feelings now than during season 2 as seen with Sam, Bobby, Jody, Crowley, Benny, Cas, Lisa, etc.

Edited January 11, 2019 by DeeDee79

[AwesomO4000]

1 minute ago, DeeDee79 said:

It was right after John died.

Thank you! That would've bugged me otherwise.

Man, doesn't season 2 seem like forever ago? Or at least for me it does. I watched in real time from episode 1 - hey it came on after Gilmore Girls at that time - and my first watch of those episodes seems like another lifetime ago.

[DeeDee79]

8 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

seen some people say that Sam bugs Dean too much about how he feels though and should just leave Dean alone... so I guess Sam loses either way.

Telling Dean that he needs to talk about his feelings is aggravating and bound to get Dean’s back up. I can’t speak for other viewers but this is what grates for me.

Just now, AwesomO4000 said:

Thank you! That would've bugged me otherwise.

Man, doesn't season 2 seem like forever ago? Or at least for me it does. I watched in real time from episode 1 - hey it came on after Gilmore Girls at that time - and my first watch of those episodes seems like another lifetime ago.

The good old days as far as I’m concerned!

[AwesomO4000]

2 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Telling Dean that he needs to talk about his feelings is aggravating and bound to get Dean’s back up. I can’t speak for other viewers but this is what grates for me.

Yeah, I guess Sam could be annoying sometimes when he did that... I think it was partially because Sam really needed to talk and hoped he could convince Dean to also. Didn't work though, and Sam did leave Dean alone fairly quickly after he blew up... and didn't really get what he needed either. So I can also get that after that Sam might be hesitant sometimes to ask Dean how he was feeling as well.

And Sam got better at it in season 6B and 7 where Sam would ask, but wouldn't push... instead suggesting that Dean might want to consider taking care of himself or getting help. But I noticed Sam stopped pushing and often just provided support and left it at that. I miss that Sam : (

[devlin]

1 hour ago, DeeDee79 said:

Telling Dean that he needs to talk about his feelings is aggravating and bound to get Dean’s back up. I can’t speak for other viewers but this is what grates for me.

The good old days as far as I’m concerned!

I agree there is a difference between showing care for someone’s well being and forcing them to talk about something  they are not ready to talk about just coz it makes you feel better. 

[AwesomO4000]

6 minutes ago, devlin said:

I agree there is a difference between showing care for someone’s well being and forcing them to talk about something  they are not ready to talk about just coz it makes you feel better. 

I'm fairly certain that's not the only reason why Sam was doing it. I'm pretty sure he thought Dean might benefit from it also. And it's not like Dean was exactly being Mr. super supportive brother in that situation either, so neither was exactly at their best.

And that also isn't the only  time Sam asks Dean how he's feeling either. Sometimes he's not concerned about himself or doesn't want to talk himself... sometimes he just is really concerned about Dean and only that.

[Aeryn13]

I don't mind that people don't ask him, I prefer silence over pushiness by far. What bugs me is when others are TELLING him what his own emotios are and how he is doing them wrong. And than he has to learn a lesson and apologize for them.

I HATE those episode with a passion. And lately it's just that. It's never anything else. According to the show he didn't have valid emotions or correct reactions since what Season 10 or 11? At least since Dabb.      

[ILoveReading]

16 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I don't mind that people don't ask him, I prefer silence over pushiness by far. What bugs me is when others are TELLING him what his own emotios are and how he is doing them wrong. And than he has to learn a lesson and apologize for them.

I HATE those episode with a passion. And lately it's just that. It's never anything else. According to the show he didn't have valid emotions or correct reactions since what Season 10 or 11? At least since Dabb.      

I've found since 4B Dean's feelings, traumas and emotions have been treated as wrong with increasing frequency.  He was wrong to be upset with Sam chosing a demon over him, considering how many people defend Bobby in that scene over Dean. 

In season 5 he was wrong to be upset with Sam's season 4 behavior and had to apologize multiple times for being upset and prove to Sam that he did, in fact, trust him. 

In s6 he was wrong for being upset that no one told him Sam was back.  Bobby certainly didn't care that he hurt Dean.   He was wrong s7 for being depressed.  That was dropped so Dean could be wrong about Amy*. An episode that was designed to completely throw Dean under the bus, that Jensen was also made to direct. Then it was just dropped because Sam's emotions, trauma, and feelings always take priority. 

Season 8 he was wrong to be be upset over being left to rot.  

Season 9 and 10, he really had no one in his corner.  "Dean's getting worse." "Dean's quiting" "Dean's giving up".  It would be nice if his family had some faith in him.

Season 11- They made him say he was too weak to deal with Amara (ignoring the two times he bested her).  No one said anything to contradict this belief.  Even Sam's fancy words in Lover Hurts, were just fancy words because when everyone was piling on Dean, no one defended him.

Season 12, he was wrong to be upset about Mary going behind their back to work with the men of letters and had to apologize.  He wasn't allowed to be upset over Sam manipulating him.  All his traumas were downplayed because they just had to emphasize Sam's and have Dean say he failed.  Then juxtapose that with scenes of a grown up Sam leading a successful mission against Brits. 

Season 13 He was wrong to be suspicious of Satan's spawn.  Those early episodes were clearly written to make sure they showcased Dean as a bully.

S14- Sam's beard got more attention than Deans' post possession trauma. 

This is not counting all the times Deans' trauma, emotions, and feelings were mocked, downplayed, or just outright ignored.  I don't think the writers feel like Dean has suffered at all at any point over the course of the series.  We probably won't get any since Buck Lemming literally think he is immune.   And his only motivation for doing anything is Sam.  He hasn't even really had Cas in his corner since Jack came along.

This to me is why Dean will always be the stronger brother, both mentally and physically.   He's never really had anyone in his corner.  He's an island unto himself.  

*Sam might have said Dean was right about Amy, but at that point the damage was done to Dean's character and Sam also threw her back in Deans' face twice indicating he didn't really believe that.

Edited January 11, 2019 by ILoveReading

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I don't think the writers feel like Dean has suffered at all at any point over the course of the series. 

According to the "harsh truths" of the Purge that were thrown out and never once refuted, he was always cowardly and selfish and only skated by in life by "sacrificing" things when it hurts others, not him. So yeah, I think they see him as a rather simple-minded bully who had an easy enough life and even that he screwed up by not being there enough for Sam or on the other hand being to clingy and selfish.  

Quote

Which is why y'all are talking about how certain writers like Sam or Nick better and are writing them the best stuff at the expense of other characters like Dean.  Not that it's okay, because a good writer services all their characters as they deserve within the story and not based on their own personal idiosyncrasies.  Unfortunately, that's just human nature. 

I can understand that. But the problem is bigger when a certain character is noone`s favourite among the writer so noone ever favours him. And when some writers at least not only do favour other characters but outright hate that one. Then you get very lop-sided writing.

Who among the current writing staff favours Dean as much as Dabb loves super!Sam or as much as Bucklemming loves Lucifer/Mark Pellegrino or as much as Berens loves his WaywardSues? And Berens at least IMO hates Dean. Dabb just sees him as weak. I don`t think Bucklemming care one way or the other, they see him as a bully but shrug beyond that. The other writers may squee over Jack more. 

[ILoveReading]

IMO, the only real champion Dean ever had on this show was Kim Manners.  He's the one that saw the potential of Dean as a character outside of Sam.  Jensen had a champion with Kripke because I do beleive he genuinely likes and admires his talent, but he never saw Dean as a character in his own right.   I don't think a coincidence that after Kim died, Dean was relegated back tot he sidelines for the majority of season 5, since Kripke admitted Sam was his avatar.  Sera outright said she preferred Sam.   Edlund liked Dean well enough, but he could only do so much. 

At least Carver tried but even those stories ultimately ended up revolving around Sam and were handed off to him.  But unlike Dean who took the mark in a moment of weakness, Sam, of course, was given an opportunity to to it heroically. 

Edited January 11, 2019 by ILoveReading

[catrox14]

9 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

And that also isn't the only  time Sam asks Dean how he's feeling either. Sometimes he's not concerned about himself or doesn't want to talk himself... sometimes he just is really concerned about Dean and only that

This is one of the things about Jared's acting that has rarely resonated with me. We are told and Sam says the words, that he cares about Dean but it rarely feels to me, that is sincere on Sam's part. It more often than not, comes across as Sam picking at Dean's vulnerable state because he has to or because he has an ulterior motive that has nothing to do with helping heal Dean's sorrow or pain. I have seen this from the pilot through s14, with exceptions being occasional moments in  s2  and actually much of s10, wherein I thought Sam had genuine worry for and about Dean for Dean's sake and only Dean's sake, not because Sam related on a personal level. There was greater nuance to Jared's work in those seasons. I believed Sam loved and wanted to help Dean for Dean's sake, not because of something he needed. Heck, he even was willing to risk the world to save Dean from the Mark. And as much as it troubled me that Sam didn't listen to Dean's warnings, I believed he loved Dean and wanted to help him, so I couldn't be entirely angry with him.

Something shifted under Dabb/Singer that has made Sam borderline unlikeable for this viewer. He's almost a caricature when he yells at demons who go away because he yells at them. it's doing Sam no favors.

Edited January 11, 2019 by catrox14
didn't want to have definitives when I meant something else.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

According to the "harsh truths" of the Purge that were thrown out and never once refuted, he was always cowardly and selfish and only skated by in life by "sacrificing" things when it hurts others, not him. So yeah, I think they see him as a rather simple-minded bully who had an easy enough life and even that he screwed up by not being there enough for Sam or on the other hand being to clingy and selfish.  

I can understand that. But the problem is bigger when a certain character is noone`s favourite among the writer so noone ever favours him. And when some writers at least not only do favour other characters but outright hate that one. Then you get very lop-sided writing.

Who among the current writing staff favours Dean as much as Dabb loves super!Sam or as much as Bucklemming loves Lucifer/Mark Pellegrino or as much as Berens loves his WaywardSues? And Berens at least IMO hates Dean. Dabb just sees him as weak. I don`t think Bucklemming care one way or the other, they see him as a bully but shrug beyond that. The other writers may squee over Jack more. 

IMO , Steve Yockey has treated Dean the best of the current staff. He didn't favor him per se but he treated him fairly by giving him voice with and towards Mary. And he let other characters show Dean a modicum of respect and compassion via Jody and even Billie!Death. He doesn't typically screw with Dean but treats him mostly okay even if the ep doesnt focus on Dean with one or two exceptions in s14.

[Pondlass1]

25 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Dean a modicum of respect and compassion via Jody and even Billie!Death.

Everything about this scene with Dean and Billie!Death is perfection.  Lighting, music, scenery, mood, writing, and above all -  exquisite and masterful acting.  My opinion is that this scene is a masterpiece and contains some of the greatest footage ever captured for this show.

Jensen had better win a Big Award some day... or the world is damn crazy .

(And they locked Dabb out of the editing room.... so we got the whole thing, no interruptions.)

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

He was wrong s7 for being depressed.  That was dropped so Dean could be wrong about Amy*. An episode that was designed to completely throw Dean under the bus, that Jensen was also made to direct. Then it was just dropped because Sam's emotions, trauma, and feelings always take priority. 

Interpretations and feelings on this vary, because I didn't see this at all. It very much to me appeared that the writer's thought that Dean was right on this point, especially when "The Mentalists" happened which - in my opinion - was showing that Sam was being the "bitch" for being angry at Dean for lying to him for his own good (a sentiment which was again reprized in season 9, in my opinion). Sam's complaining about it later in season 7 was because he was confirming that Dean had been right and was worried that Dean hadn't acted instead because his heart wasn't in it at that moment and Sam didn't want Dean to die. It was brought up in season 8, in my opinion, because Carver sucks and threw Sam under the bus. It was proved that Sam was wrong and Amy and Benny weren't the same situation because Benny was the most loyal, bestest little vampire that could (in my opinion) whose life Sam callously destroyed.***

What I saw was that every character in season 7 supported Dean in his depression. Bobby asked how Dean was doing and worried for Dean while Sam was comatose. Sam was concerned about him but didn't push. He let Dean work on finding a way to beat Dick Roman while at the same time giving him needed diversions if Dean wanted, and tried to let Dean know that what they did was important and that Sam, himself was good with his life and dealing, and that Dean didn't have to worry about him, but could focus on himself. I didn't see any "Dean was wrong for being depressed" messages there. Dean was even given a legitimate outside reason for his depression being more difficult than others' - ghost Bobby. It was shown in season 4 that ghosts hanging around people - and ghost Bobby was associated with Dean due to the flask - cause people to be depressed and not allow them to grieve properly and let that person move on, so having ghost Bobby around while Dean didn't know it was affecting Dean. Once Dean knew Bobby was there, in my opinion, his mood improved and that depression wasn't hanging over him so much any more.

I thought season 7 treated both brother's trauma equally, with Dean's need to kill Dick Roman treated as a legitimate emotional need that the other characters' (and writers) supported - unlike Sam's need for revenge on Lilith which was treated as a bad thing which caused an apocalypse - so again miles vary there.

*** (Now that - "Citizen Fang" - was an episode deigned to throw a character under the bus, and it wasn't Dean. No one is going to convince me that the writers didn't create that relative and make that whole sympathetic situation and then throw crazy Martin in there not to throw Sam under the bus when he callously destroyed everything, but then still had heroic, noble Benny sacrifice everything to save Sam for Dean later on. The later supposed Charlie "reprimand" was a bunch of who shot John temporary diversion from the Sam character assassination, but it was a poor attempt at best.)

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

At least Carver tried but even those stories ultimately ended up revolving around Sam and were handed off to him.  But unlike Dean who took the mark in a moment of weakness, Sam, of course, was given an opportunity to to it heroically. 

Again I disagree. Dean's taking the mark was entirely justified when he killed Abaddon with little bad effects. Unlike Sam and his blood drinking - which was bad, bad, bad, condemned by everyone, implied to only be because Sam had ulterior motives, and caused an apocalypse - Dean was supported during his taking the mark, told he was "right" ("Mother's Little Helper"), and helped to save the world because of it. In my opinion, that's a pretty interesting dichotomy that showed that Dean with the mark was seen as much stronger  - and trying to fight the mark even as he used it to save the world - than weak, power-hungry Sam with the demon blood. Sam was given the mark for a hot second so it would forever be that he couldn't have it again by becoming "tainted" himself.

So again, interpretations vary on that, also.

4 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Season 9 and 10, he really had no one in his corner.  "Dean's getting worse." "Dean's quiting" "Dean's giving up".  It would be nice if his family had some faith in him.

As mentioned above, considering that Dean was working with dark powers, I thought that Sam, especially, supported Dean quite a lot. That he even expressed / thought that Dean could beat it at all I thought was fairly amazing considering all of the experience they had previously with how dark powers corrupt (Sam and the demon blood, Castiel and the souls). So I give both Castiel and Sam some slack for being concerned at times.

I thought Sam showed incredible faith in Dean - with "About a Boy" being a good example - and even in season 9 when was Sam still (understandably) miffed about Gadreel and with Dean showing some cracks around the edges, Sam in the end, still said that he wanted Dean in the big battle against Metatron with him and that Dean was their best bet. In my opinion, how much more supportive does Sam have to be?

So after watching Dean become a demon and all of that trauma, Sam sometimes had some reservations... I think that's pretty understandable based on everything Sam went through... and what he saw Dean go through in season 9. To me, that Sam had any faith at all that Dean could beat such a dark power as the mark - look what it did to Cain - is pretty remarkable and shows that Sam had quite a bit of faith in Dean. But I guess unless Sam believes Dean can do anything, ever despite all previous experience and show history to the contrary, he's a bad brother who doesn't care about or support Dean.

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

This is one of the things about Jared's acting that has rarely resonated with me. We are told and Sam says the words, that he cares about Dean but it rarely feels to me, that is sincere on Sam's part. It more often than not, comes across as Sam picking at Dean's vulnerable state because he has to or because he has an ulterior motive that has nothing to do with helping heal Dean's sorrow or pain. I have seen this from the pilot through s14, with exceptions being occasional moments in  s2  and actually much of s10, wherein I thought Sam had genuine worry for and about Dean for Dean's sake and only Dean's sake, not because Sam related on a personal level.

I personally like Jared's acting style. Even though I agree that Jensen is better for some things - and I know this isn't going to make sense to some people - I sometimes find it somehow too much. Like it's so much it's right there and "look at me." Sometimes I prefer Jared's - to me - more subtle style, especially with the comedic things.

My favorite Sam was season 6 and 7. I liked both his turn as Soulless Sam - which I thought was a great job - and his post soul return. I found that time for Sam to be very sincere and real, and Sam's concern for Dean to be genuine. For me, Jared even pulled off the "zen" in the face of Hallucination!Lucifer. I hated what he did with season 8 and 9B Sam though (I thought he was good with season 9A Sam... ehn with Gadreel, but great with distressed, confused Sam,) so I think Jared does best when his story arcs actually make sense and are true to the character of Sam... not so much with mitigating story arcs that don't and aren't. With the problem being - in my opinion - unfortunately, that that kind of thing tends to happen much more often with Sam than it does with Dean who generally is written at least somewhat true to character.

I agree with you on season 10 Sam though, too. I don't think it was easy to pull off Sam's concern for Dean while also lying, but Jared managed it.

[ILoveReading]

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Bobby asked how Dean was doing

And then processed to tell him he wasn't a person.  I came to dread any of those "heart to heart" talks.  It was just basically another suck it up lecture.  Then he told Sam to stop worrying about Dean and live his own life.  Not exactly supportive, IMO.  Just saying words doesn't mean much if you don't back it up.   It was hard for Sam to really give Dean much support since he had his own issues.  Sam's issues always take priortity on this show.  After Bobby's lecture, Dean's issues pretty much just disappeared with no real resolution.  It was just another dropped plot point in a long line of dropped plot points.

Dean's need for revenge on Dick Roman was dropped the minute Bobby came back into the picture.  That was suddenly his story. 

Sam did continue to lie to Dean.  When Dean thought it was Bobby, Sam said he did the tests.  Why didn't he tell Dean?  Sam also ended up blaming Dean for resouling him.  (Born Again Identity)

We'll have to agree to disagree that the brothers trauma was treated equally.  Dean certainly go no resolution or release.  I saw a lot of Dean putting aside his trauma once again for Sam.

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Now that - "Citizen Fang" - was an episode deigned to throw a character under the bus,

Considering there were no negative consequences for Sam I'd have to disagree.  The text message was added to make Dean look bad, and Sam got his way.  He left Benny for no other reason than Sam having a temper tantrum. 

With the Amy situation there was 4 episodes of follow up where it was hammered that Dean was a dick for lying to Sam.  Sam even stalked off.  Dean didn't chase him and the show didn't drag Sam back and have another character say "We need Sam."  Which is what happened to Dean when he tried to walk away from Sam.  No one told Sam he ruined Dean's life and cost him a friend.  The text message was brought up in subsequent episodes, Sam's behavior was not.  Not once, not even by Dean.  In he got rewarded for it. 

Sam chose to stay and work the case.  If Sam can call Dean out during fallen idols, because his attitude was jeopardizing the case then it seems to me that is fair also for Sam.  Because he was acting like a bitch.    Not going to lie.  I cheered when Dean said that to Sam.  It was nice to hear him finally get the boo hoo lecture for once.

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Again I disagree. Dean's taking the mark was entirely justified when he killed Abaddon with little bad effects.

I disagree that there was no bad effect.  Dean ended up dying and he attacked Gadreel and ended up locked in the panic room.  It was changing his personality.  Abbaddon was never really presented as that much of a threat. 

 

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Sam was given the mark for a hot second so it would forever be that he couldn't have it again by becoming "tainted" himself.

As for Sam drinking demon blood.  Again don't agree Sam faced consequences.  Demon blood was ultimately responsible for saving the world because Sam had to drink it to house Lucifer.   Not to mention Sam announcing that he went to Ruby to get away from Dean.  I personally think s5 whitewashed Sam especially when the burden of proof on trust was on Dean.  Sam expected Dean to trust him immediately.  Sam was completely whitewashed in s5. 

Not to mention the show completely rewriting history when Sam told Dean that everything worked out great with powers when they were aruging over Jack.  So show thinks Dean was wrong for not being supportive enough of Sam during that time.

I don't care how long it was for.  It was the fact that the show went there in the first place.  Taking on the mark (which Sam decided to do behind Dean's back), was shown to be Sam sarificing himself.  Dean taking on the mark was never treated as heroic in the show.  It was done because Dean was weak and thought he was going to die anyway.  It was a moment of weakness.

 

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I thought Sam showed incredible faith in Dean - with "About a Boy" being a good example - and even in season 9 when was Sam still (understandably) miffed about Gadreel and with Dean showing some cracks around the edges, Sam in the end, still said that he wanted Dean in the big battle against Metatron with him and that Dean was their best bet. In my opinion, how much more supportive does Sam have to be?

I'm mostly talking about after the fight with Cain.  Before ep 13, I'd agree that Sam was right to have reservations because Dean was getting worse, but after ep 14 and the focus shifted more to what Sam was doing, they forgot to actually write the mark affecting Dean.  Sam and Cas were showing the same level of violence Dean was.  Nothing after episode 14 really showed Dean 'getting worse"  He couldn't' go with Sam and Cas becasue "he snapped" then they show us Dean playing miniature golf.  The tell didnt' match the show, so Sam's proclamations that Dean was getting worse didn't fit.  Sam wasn't seeing Dean, he was judging him based on things that weren't happening.  I can admit it was a writer fail but it made it look like Sam had no faith in Dean.  Also Sam said, Dean's giving up, Dean's quitting.  He wasn't.  He was fighting.  He just wasn't doing it the way Sam thought he should.

That's the problem with Sam.  He thinks Dean should deal with things his way, and if he doesn't Sam keeps pushing or thinks Dean has given up.

We will have to agree to disagree.

*I'm not saying that Sam has never shown Dean's genuine support just that I find Dean getting support from anyone, including Sam to be increasingly few and far between since the back half of season 4.  Again, not a coincidence, IMO, that this would have been the time Kim Manners started getting sick.

Edited January 11, 2019 by ILoveReading

[auntvi]

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I personally like Jared's acting style. Even though I agree that Jensen is better for some things - and I know this isn't going to make sense to some people - I sometimes find it somehow too much. Like it's so much it's right there and "look at me." Sometimes I prefer Jared's - to me - more subtle style, especially with the comedic things.

My favorite Sam was season 6 and 7. I liked both his turn as Soulless Sam - which I thought was a great job - and his post soul return. I found that time for Sam to be very sincere and real, and Sam's concern for Dean to be genuine. For me, Jared even pulled off the "zen" in the face of Hallucination!Lucifer.

I like Jared's more naturalistic style. Also agree that Jensen plays it too much over the top sometimes, especially the 1000 yd blue steel stare. IMHO

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

He couldn't go with Sam and Cas becasue "he snapped" then they show us Dean playing miniature golf. 

This is one of the most egregious of the 'Dean's messed up' nonsensical scenes. Cas took him to meet the douchebag in the bar. Dean did exactly what Cas took him along for, and then he clutched his pearls when Dean did it. Such BS.

IMO, Jensen is the best actor on the show (esp now that Mark S is gone). There's a reason they give him most of the heavy lifting and it ain't cuz of his bandy bow legs. IMO.

Edited January 11, 2019 by gonzosgirrl

[Aeryn13]

These days, I really only take notice when Jensen is given something halfway decent to do as Dean. Which, doesn`t happen very often. Other than that, I might perk up only at the occassional guest star delivering a good performance. Like the woman who played Sasha in the Djinn ep.

I actually think Alex Calvert can act. His character on SPN is completely different from who he played on Arrow. However, the character on Arrow had way more life in him, Jack is an endless string of "aww, shucks" sweetness. It is so one note, I sometimes wonder if Calvert bites into lemons between takes to get the saccharine taste out of his mouth. 

Erica Cerra, the one who plays the angel Dumas and recently the Empty is good. I liked her on 100 and I genuinely like her bit parts on SPN.

The worst at the moment is probably Sam Smith`s over the top cold fish, self-involved portrayal as Mary. And you can tell it is because she bought hook, line and sinker into everything the writers told her about how great and righteous her character is. I mean, during Cons she espoused some of the same things I read in writer interviews. That writing is so tone-deaf with how the character comes across, though, actually playing up the smug "yeah, I`m so great and what I want is so valid", it becomes 100 % worse than even the writing. She might not have wanted to remain Nightgown!Mary but back then, when the writers mostly put her as such, she could actually excude some warmth. 

Edited January 11, 2019 by Aeryn13

[AwesomO4000]

20 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Considering there were no negative consequences for Sam I'd have to disagree. 

With the Amy situation there was 4 episodes of follow up where it was hammered that Dean was a dick for lying to Sam.  Sam even stalked off.  Dean didn't chase him and the show didn't drag Sam back and have another character say "We need Sam."  Which is what happened to Dean when he tried to walk away from Sam.  No one told Sam he ruined Dean's life and cost him a friend.  The text message was brought up in subsequent episodes, Sam's behavior was not.  Not once, not even by Dean.  In he got rewarded for it.

When I point out that there are often no negative consequences for stuff Dean does, I see "the consequences don't really matter. It's what the writers are showing, etc." I think that applies here, for Sam in this case as well, then. The entire episode structure was set up to show sympathy for Benny and his relative, just so that it could be shown that it was Sam's fault for taking that away.

As I said in an earlier post, the writers in season 8 did not seem to be on the same page in terms of which brother's point was right and which was wrong... they just seemed to know by golly one of them was right and one was wrong at any particular time. So sure, one writer had Charlie - off of Dean's unreliable narrator information - say something about how Sam was losing his happily ever after or whatever... which later other writers refuted by showing this wasn't true at all since Sam left Amelia again because he chose to - there was no impending doom reason for him to go back to hunting unless he wanted to.

I thought that season 8 was crap, and no one was on the same page. However for me, in the end, more writers seemed to be on the "throw Sam's character under the bus" page than the "we might make Dean look sort of bad if you look at it that way, just so it looks like we're being fair" page. Considering that Dean was right about Benny and Sam failed the "heroic" trails (set up so that Sam would fail) because all he really wanted was Dean's approval rather than letting Dean down - but was too moronic to ask - while along the way abandoning Kevin, not looking for Dean (and getting called out on it), going after poor, innocent, heroic Benny, committing adultery, etc. etc., I'm pretty sure the "throw Sam under the bus" writers won that one.

I didn't even like Sam - like at all - in season 8 and he was supposed to be one of my favorite characters ever, so someone somewhere must have been trying really hard to assassinate his character. (Otherwise Carver was even worse at being a showrunner than I thought if that wasn't the case.)

And then they came back in season 9B to back the bus up and run Sam over again.

Quote

Sam chose to stay and work the case.  If Sam can call Dean out during fallen idols, because his attitude was jeopardizing the case then it seems to me that is fair also for Sam.  Because he was acting like a bitch.    Not going to lie.  I cheered when Dean said that to Sam.  It was nice to hear him finally get the boo hoo lecture for once.

Actually Sam was there first and had already been working the case. Dean came along, declared he wasn't leaving so they might as well work together, and he promised to just keep it professional and not push Sam into anything he wasn't ready for... And then complained when Sam was perfectly cordial and worked the case with him (Dean) but wouldn't do that "more" Dean promised he wasn't going to ask for and called Sam a "bitch" for not doing things the way and as quickly as Dean wanted. What did Sam do to be called a bitch? ...suggest that they go to the cemetery and check out a grave. How awful of him. Not that I'm saying that Sam was letting Dean in, because he wasn't, but the show seemed to think he should be.

So Sam capitulated to Dean and pretty much agreed with Dean's assessment... the same way that Dean decided to give in to Sam some in "Fallen Idols", so I am assuming that in both cases that the writer intention was the same... the one giving in should have given in. And once we learned Dean's reasoning in "The Mentalists" - which Dean could have told Sam in the first place - that made more sense (sort of... there were some logistical questions, but whatever, I understood the sentiment anyway, so...). But then again I also thought Sam had a legitimate point in "Fallen Idols," so...

In my opinion, Sam isn't the only one who gets testy if his brother doesn't do things the way he thinks his brother should, it's just that Sam generally gets criticized for it while Dean generally gets praised.

...And the show itself often validates both brothers doing it so that doesn't help. Another big example: the end of "Sam, Interrupted." Apparently all that needed to happen to fix Sam's rage issues is for Dean to get annoyed by Sam talking about it one time and telling him to just shut up and stuff it down like he does, and voila we never hear about Sam's rage issues again - except until it's too late and Lucifer brings it up - but then never again after that. Yay? Apparently me saying "but, Sam isn't wired that way. That kind of thing doesn't work for him at all." had no effect on the people in the television.  Go figure. ; )

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

I disagree that there was no bad effect.  Dean ended up dying and he attacked Gadreel and ended up locked in the panic room.  It was changing his personality.  Abbaddon was never really presented as that much of a threat. 

I didn't say that there was no bad effect at all. But comparatively there was no contest, in my opinion. Even if you didn't consider Abaddon a threat, Dean with the mark also helped to take down Metatron, and both ventures were successful and saved the world from a bad guy. Dean dying was likely to happen sometime at that point anyway, so him sacrificing himself by being Metatron bait was the right thing to do. In contrast, Sam taking on his powers resulted in almost nothing good happening and resulted in raising Lucifer and thousands of people dying. One (Sam) was shown in only a bad light, the other (Dean) had mostly good consequences. One demon ally (Ruby) - entirely bad, the other (Crowley) a frenemy.

It was the overall effect that I was referring to.

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

As for Sam drinking demon blood.  Again don't agree Sam faced consequences.  Demon blood was ultimately responsible for saving the world because Sam had to drink it to house Lucifer. 

Except that if not for Dean showing up, Sam drinking demon blood would have doomed the world, because Sam couldn't overcome Lucifer until that happened.

The result of Sam drinking the demon blood - on Castiel's say so - was to make Sam overconfident and say "yes" when he shouldn't have. That's what's I saw. What I saw was that Sam's blood powers had no role in Sam defeating Lucifer whatsoever. It only hindered it in that Sam almost lost because of his overconfidence garnered from that blood-drinking.

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

Taking on the mark (which Sam decided to do behind Dean's back), was shown to be Sam sarificing himself.  Dean taking on the mark was never treated as heroic in the show.  It was done because Dean was weak and thought he was going to die anyway.  It was a moment of weakness.

Even if I agreed with you about the first part - which I don't - almost everything that happened while Dean had the mark - especially in season 10 - was shown as heroic, right down to Dean wanting to sacrifice himself to the Empty at the end of the season (Until Death made that stupid insistence.) Not the same as Sam's demon blood journey where everything was shown as Sam being overcome by the darkness and being weak for not being able to or wanting to fight it until it was way too late.

As for Sam not telling Dean about the mark of Cain plan... good call on Sam's part, imo, because Dean would've freaked and done something rash - as shown by the fact that he killed freakin' Death, himself later on for similar reasons. So yeah, sorry, not gonna fault Sam on that one.

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

he tell didnt' match the show, so Sam's proclamations that Dean was getting worse didn't fit.  Sam wasn't seeing Dean, he was judging him based on things that weren't happening.  I can admit it was a writer fail but it made it look like Sam had no faith in Dean. 

Under Carver's reign, in my opinion, there was less worry about how the characters - Sam's character especially - would look as long as the plot was serviced. I don't blame this on Sam so much, because I saw that Sam had had faith in Dean and had a right to be concerned previously so the bad writing didn't override that for me. Sam was also under a lot of stress with all of the lying and trying to get everything he needed - and as usual, going nuts due to "save Dean" mode - so I didn't see this as Sam not showing faith as much as I saw it as writer fail and Sam desperation.

[tessathereaper]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

This is one of the most egregious of the 'Dean's messed up' nonsensical scenes. Cas took him to meet the douchebag in the bar. Dean did exactly what Cas took him along for, and then he clutched his pearls when Dean did it. Such BS.

IMO, Jensen is the best actor on the show (esp now that Mark S is gone). There's a reason they give him most of the heavy lifting and it ain't cuz of his bandy bow legs. IMO.

I know Dean killed a bunch of people who were going to kill him "ooh oh Dean's so dark", Sam and Cas are doing things as bad or worse than him "oh oh someone hold my pearls, Dean's out of control!"  It was so ridiculous.  

Jensen is definitely the best actor on the show, because he can pretty much do it all and he has gravitas.  He's believable.  And his ability with body language and nuanced facial expressions(in a  second somehow he can convey a complex mix of emotions, this is why he has depth even though the writing has been lacking for years)

[devlin]

12 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

  

Jensen is definitely the best actor on the show, because he can pretty much do it all and he has gravitas.  He's believable.  And his ability with body language and nuanced facial expressions(in a  second somehow he can convey a complex mix of emotions, this is why he has depth even though the writing has been lacking for years)

This is what drives me insane. They have this brilliant actor but rather than give him stellar material they choose to ignore him and focus all their attention on less skilled actors. I am not saying this should become the dean show, I just want him to be given some worthwhile writing along with everyone else on this show. It’s such a waste 

[DeeDee79]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

IMO, Jensen is the best actor on the show (esp now that Mark S is gone). There's a reason they give him most of the heavy lifting and it ain't cuz of his bandy bow legs. IMO.

Co-sign. Misha is a close second but Jensen is most definitely the stand out IMO.

[Myrelle]

9 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

9 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Again I disagree. Dean's taking the mark was entirely justified when he killed Abaddon with little bad effects.

I disagree that there was no bad effect.  Dean ended up dying and he attacked Gadreel and ended up locked in the panic room.  It was changing his personality.  Abbaddon was never really presented as that much of a threat. 

I've always felt that Abaddon was a parallel to Lilith.

Each was a reason for the respective brother to take a dark path(for Sam the demon blood drinking, and for Dean the MOC) in order to take out a darker threat-which, in turn, also lead to the release of an even darker threat(Lucifer and the Darkness) in both cases, with a similar type of shared blame in both cases.

I truly see those storylines as very parallel, and the kind/type of parallel storytelling that actually somewhat works, in hindsight.

[gonzosgirrl]

This is perhaps a little tangential, but it relates (IMO) to my contention that Dabb (and company) are spiteful/petty enough to take their personal feelings out on a character. In a Q&A at Fan Expo in 2018, Mark Sheppard talks about leaving Supernatural. In the article they quote him as saying "Ben (Edlund)" but in reality (on video) he says 'Andrew'. The video is here. He is quite blunt in his thoughts and feelings, among them:

Quote

According to Sheppard, it was apparent for several years that Crowley’s run on Supernatural was coming to an end: “There’s been a problem since Season 10, which is, ‘I’m not really doing anything, guys.’ They actually forgot they wrote me into the final scene of season 10. They had no idea because there’s no dialogue for me at all… for a few seasons, I think I was just treading water to see what they were gonna do.”

Coming around to my point - Mark clearly expressed issues with the writing and his character in S10, and (my opinion) suddenly this savvy, smart, sophisticated villain was doing incredibly stupid things, eventually crawling around on all fours and licking the floor. So yeah, I have no trouble believing that the treatment of Dean in the Dabb era is personal. 

On another note - Demon Dean fans might want to listen around 10:20 in that video. :)