“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[belbar]

24 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

ETA: and I would go as far as to say I think at least part of the reason for Sam's 'attitude' is some of the writers' projection. The writing (and direction) for Sam vis a vis Dean at times seems to me petty to the point of being personal.

As I understand that was the original starting point for Kripke. He saw and identified himself with Sam. He is the younger brother and must have many issues with his brother. (none of my business so not going there). But yes that's the premise for the show. And had Jensen played his character as originally intended, Dean would have been the jerk that some see (Singer included).

As for the writers they're receiving directives and lack the skills to create anything more layered than what you see. In the last years there's been a massive scape of talent from the show and it's affected every single aspect of it.

[Reganne]

39 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I've talked about this several times in this thread and elsewhere. I have always felt that Sam doesn't like Dean, and I am talking from their first scene together onward. He is almost always condescending, if not outright nasty about the things Dean loves (music, the car, food, women)

I see a lot of this with both brothers.  Dean tosses Sam's IPOD out the window after giving him a judging look and hearing what kind of music he listens to in Sympathy to the Devil for example.  He makes fun of him for being nerdy and girly.  Makes fun of his hair.  Tells Sam he's always saying Pansy things. Hitting on Jessica in front of Sam and essentially saying Sam's not good enough for her as he says "You're way out of my brother's league". Giving Sam judgy looks as he talks with Charlie about Harry Potter.  I'm sure I could go on.  Most of these things I just consider brotherly banter TBH.

[ILoveReading]

28 minutes ago, belbar said:

think that it's more complicated than that. And I'm not so sure that Sam admires Dean for his leadership position. What I think is that he wants to be the one calling the shots and is probably one of the reasons for his resentment, but not the only one. Problem is I think he's good at working in team. He usually offers alternatives and good ideas, but he wouldn't be a good leader. IMO

Honestly, Ive felt this way since s4.  I think Sam resents Dean for not being Ruby.  Ruby stroked Sam's ego, didn't question him and basically responded with yes, no and how high.

I often find Sam doesn't like being questioned or disagreed with.  When he is he reverts back to "you treat me like a child."

Despite how often the show tries to tell me that Dean needs to learn to be a team player or open up I find its Sam who needs it just as much if not more. (not saying there aren't times Dean's reckless or wants to to things on his own but I do find this more of a Sam trait overall).

The trials are good example.  "I have to do this solo."  He didn't want Dean's help because he was on a mission to prove himself again.

Not to mention the whole cage stuff.  He prays to God one time and has a vision and suddenly decides he's God's chosen despite the fact that God rarely intervene and didnt want to hear anything different.  NGL, I was happy when that ego got taken down a peg. 

If you take hunting from the equation, Sam and Dean really have nothing in common except maybe watching wrestling. 

[catrox14]

16 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Dean wasn't throwing a toddler temper tantrum just because he's angry. Dean  reacted as an adult leader who was pissed that his felliw soldiers failed in their part of the mission. Dean was a dick, but IMO it was adult  to adult .Sam was whining about what he perceived as Dean's motives. Dean straight up called them out for their failures.  To me those are entirely different situations and different outbursts.

 

16 hours ago, Reganne said:

But I thought Dean wasn't blaming Cas and Sam?

 

2 hours ago, Reganne said:

9 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Huh? I never said that.

You said something about Dean being pissed at his soldiers for failing their mission.  To me, that would require blame, so I was wondering.  YMMV

I'm kind of lost here. I never said Dean wasn't finding fault with them, and really Sam mostly. He did. I was saying that Dean didn't have a toddler tantrum and I stand  by that. Because not  every anger outburst an adult person has is a "toddler tantrum". My point was more that it's the context and situation and the argument itself that make them different.

Sam was blaming Dean for his own feelings/perception  that Dean put him at the  "kids table".  

Dean was  directing his ire mostly to Sam because Cas wasn't there when he left. Dean was relying on Sam to make sure he could open a Rift again. And Sam failed to secure the grace to do it.  Dean was angry at the failure which left them without another say to open a rift again. It was a factual matter Dean was pissed about not his perception of Sam's motives I  not securing the grace. SAM WAS pissed at Dean for Sam's perception of Dean's motives because it's not a fact that Dean put Sam at the kids table. SAM was mad at Dean for his own  insecurities about himself and Dean was mad about the mission failure.

 

That's the difference IMO. I hope that clears things up.

[belbar]

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

Honestly, Ive felt this way since s4.  I think Sam resents Dean for not being Ruby.  Ruby stroked Sam's ego, didn't question him and basically responded with yes, no and how high.

I often find Sam doesn't like being questioned or disagreed with.  When he is he reverts back to "you treat me like a child."

Despite how often the show tries to tell me that Dean needs to learn to be a team player or open up I find its Sam who needs it just as much if not more. (not saying there aren't times Dean's reckless or wants to to things on his own but I do find this more of a Sam trait overall).

The trials are good example.  "I have to do this solo."  He didn't want Dean's help because he was on a mission to prove himself again.

Not to mention the whole cage stuff.  He prays to God one time and has a vision and suddenly decides he's God's chosen despite the fact that God rarely intervene and didnt want to hear anything different.  NGL, I was happy when that ego got taken down a peg. 

If you take hunting from the equation, Sam and Dean really have nothing in common except maybe watching wrestling. 

Totally agree with every point of your post.

[belbar]

16 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Dean was  directing his ire mostly to Sam because Cas wasn't there when he left. Dean was relying on Sam to make sure he could open a Rift again. And Sam failed to secure the grace to do it.  Dean was angry at the failure which left them without another say to open a rift again.

I don't even think that Dean was angry with Sam or Cas. I think that his anger was because of the situation. He said so. Every time that they seem to be close to a solution something happens. Every single time (he didn't metion anybody). But I agree I don't see it as a tantrum. More like an anger management issue if you want. And frankly I can understand it.

[Reganne]

31 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 

 

I'm kind of lost here. I never said Dean wasn't finding fault with them, and really Sam mostly. He did. I was saying that Dean didn't have a toddler tantrum and I stand  by that. Because not  every anger outburst an adult person has is a "toddler tantrum". My point was more that it's the context and situation and the argument itself that make them different.

Sam was blaming Dean for his own feelings/perception  that Dean put him at the  "kids table".  

Dean was  directing his ire mostly to Sam because Cas wasn't there when he left. Dean was relying on Sam to make sure he could open a Rift again. And Sam failed to secure the grace to do it.  Dean was angry at the failure which left them without another say to open a rift again. It was a factual matter Dean was pissed about not his perception of Sam's motives I  not securing the grace. SAM WAS pissed at Dean for Sam's perception of Dean's motives because it's not a fact that Dean put Sam at the kids table. SAM was mad at Dean for his own  insecurities about himself and Dean was mad about the mission failure.

 

That's the difference IMO. I hope that clears things up.

It didn't clear it up because to me, with they way you're describing things, it sounds like Dean was blaming Sam and I know that's not your intention.  That's why its confusing me. It's just that finding someone at fault for something is the same thing as blaming them.  What I was referring to had nothing to do with the kiddie table line or the temper tantrum thing.  I understand what you're saying about the temper tantrum even though I don't agree with it being adult behaviour.  Yes some adults act like that, but it doesn't make throwing things out of frustration an appropriate adult behaviour IMO.  Understandable in the situation,  sure but not adult.

Edited April 29, 2018 by Reganne

[Reganne]

34 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Honestly, Ive felt this way since s4.  I think Sam resents Dean for not being Ruby.  Ruby stroked Sam's ego, didn't question him and basically responded with yes, no and how high.

I often find Sam doesn't like being questioned or disagreed with.  When he is he reverts back to "you treat me like a child."

Despite how often the show tries to tell me that Dean needs to learn to be a team player or open up I find its Sam who needs it just as much if not more. (not saying there aren't times Dean's reckless or wants to to things on his own but I do find this more of a Sam trait overall).

The trials are good example.  "I have to do this solo."  He didn't want Dean's help because he was on a mission to prove himself again.

Not to mention the whole cage stuff.  He prays to God one time and has a vision and suddenly decides he's God's chosen despite the fact that God rarely intervene and didnt want to hear anything different.  NGL, I was happy when that ego got taken down a peg. 

If you take hunting from the equation, Sam and Dean really have nothing in common except maybe watching wrestling. 

Wasn't it originally Dean who wanted to do the trials alone? Why is it ok for Dean to have the idea that he must be the one to do it alone and not Sam? The only reason Sam ended up doing the trials was because he ended up killing the hellhound and because of that he was the one who needed to complete the rest of them.

 

As far as the cage, I think Sam was more looking for hope.  He was willing to believe anything to get it.

Edited April 29, 2018 by Reganne

[Icarus]

45 minutes ago, Reganne said:

see a lot of this with both brothers.  Dean tosses Sam's IPOD out the window after giving him a judging look and hearing what kind of music he listens to in Sympathy to the Devil for example.  He makes fun of him for being nerdy and girly.  Makes fun of his hair.  Tells Sam he's always saying Pansy things. Hitting on Jessica in front of Sam and essentially saying Sam's not good enough for her as he says "You're way out of my brother's league". Giving Sam judgy looks as he talks with Charlie about Harry Potter.  I'm sure I could go on.  Most of these things I just consider brotherly banter TBH.

I totally disagree with this, IMO when Dean is teasing Sam in all these instances it is done/acted with fondness, that is certainly the reading I get from those instances. Whereas Sam does not play/act it like that., he IMO is dismissive, impatient etc. Now I could believe that this is all down to the way Jensen and Jared interpret the script and how they act it out, but that is definitely how it plays out to me.

40 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

No one is obligated to answer this. But if anyone's interested, I"ll put it out there: do those of you who consider yourselves Dean fans actually see anything admirable or positive about Sam's character? 

On the post about Dean fans liking Sam, I used to consider myself a Dean mainly fan in the early seasons but then in a way because I like Jared and of course Jensen and the characters became more filled out I sort of became much more bi bro and the same applies in a way to Cas. I really found the character interesting to start with and then after his story really sorted ended I wanted him to go, but found myself liking Misha so much that I just hoped they could write him into the stories better. I do though still in general find I am more in tune with Dean but I don't have the difficulty some posters have with Sam, probably he does more to annoy me than Dean does but I really struggle with Dean's bossiness and so after all that I can say quite honestly that yes I do like Sam but not all the time and I do like Dean but sometimes I don't!!

[Reganne]

6 minutes ago, Icarus said:

I totally disagree with this, IMO when Dean is teasing Sam in all these instances it is done/acted with fondness, that is certainly the reading I get from those instances. Whereas Sam does not play/act it like that., he IMO is dismissive, impatient etc. Now I could believe that this is all down to the way Jensen and Jared interpret the script and how they act it out, but that is definitely how it plays out to me.

 

I don't think Dean tossing Sam's ipod because of what he considered Sam's lame taste in music to be done out of fondness.  Same with the "you're always saying pansy things".   Even Dean judging Sam for knowing Harry Potter wasn't done in fondness.  More "you're lame bro" which is typical with brothers.  To me it's no different from Sam giving judging eyes to Dean eating sloppily with his mouth open in the first seasons.  It's used for humor and banter among the brothers.

[Lemuria]

17 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Releasing Lucifer was actually an honest mistake on Sam`s part. That was never my problem. Noone swooped in and told him that killing Lilith would do that. The arrogance before that, that was always my problem. And Season 5 never really acknowledged that or rectified it and to me 5.22 was the coup the gras for any redemption I was awaiting after Season 4. 

Totally! That has always been my position:  I didn't blame him for releasing Lucifer because he thought he was doing exactly the opposite.  I blamed him for what he intentionally chose to do, most especially letting Ruby lead him around by his ego, nose and, yes, d**k, despite that fact that she'd lied to him all through season 3.  He chose to listen to her exclusively, ignoring the different advice he got from his brother, two angels, a psychic who died helping him (and Dean) and a prophet of God (who, of course, turned out to be God).  

In Levee, when he still thought he'd be proven right, he took full "credit" for his actions:  Dean tried to blame the drug dealer, but Sam was all, "No, it was all me."  Then, when he'd been proven wrong, suddenly in Fallen Idols it was all, "You drove me to Ruby, Dean" and "I went with her because she wasn't you."  I thought that season 5 would actually be Sam's redemption and for four episodes, it seemed that was what we were getting.  Then along came FI and it was all downhill from there, he never acknowledged any wrong for all the things he did because he meant to do them, because of his arrogance and ego.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Reganne said:

I see a lot of this with both brothers.  Dean tosses Sam's IPOD out the window after giving him a judging look and hearing what kind of music he listens to in Sympathy to the Devil for example.  He makes fun of him for being nerdy and girly.

Are you meaning to refer to Lazarus Rising when Dean had just gotten out of Hell. Like literally what a couple of days before? Also, he didn't actually toss it out the window. He tossed it into the backseat.

Dean hasn't made fun of Sam for being girly since like s3.  Not that I can recall. He's always made fun of Sam's hair and hilariously in the most recent episode, a villain actually did grab Sam by his hair.  Dean doesn't really want to cut off Sam's hair. It's a teasing thing. Which is way different than Sam telling Dean he treats Sam like a child, (when Dean really wasn't at all). He put Sam in charge of the rescue part of the mission if needed.  And Sam failed.

I don't think it's really quite apt to compare sibling teasing to serious issues of how they see each other and themselves in the dynamic of the family.

[trxr4kids]

28 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

No one is obligated to answer this. But if anyone's interested, I"ll put it out there: do those of you who consider yourselves Dean fans actually see anything admirable or positive about Sam's character? 

Speaking for myself, I pretty much agree with most of what @Aeryn13 posted. I don't think Sam is horrible,  I just don't connect with him or understand him without pretzel logic and reading @AwesomO4000's take on what Sam said/did (she should be a paid interpreter at this point). I think Sam has been shown to have many positive traits, although despite the show telling me he's so empathetic*, I wouldn't say that's one that I see in him. I don't think it helps the character that when he is given an emotional POV it often appears as though he's blame shifting, condescending or contradictory to his previously established emotional POV. 

The more I think about it the more I think my problem with both Sam and Dean is that the show and TPTB are always telling me things about each character that I don't see or believe(see also season 8 matureSam arc and season 9 and 12 selfishDean arcs). Don't even get me started on MaryNotJustaMotherMary! I don't like to see the characters I've emotionally invested in and cared about for so long being reduced to unflattering caricature like depictions of what should be fully fleshed out, complex characterizations of said characters at this point.

The last several seasons have been difficult to slog through for me. I frequently wonder if Bucklemming aren't actually the man and woman behind the curtain because the seasons have seemed to mirror their special formula.

So no, I don't hate Sam, yes I often find fault in him but IMO it's normal to have characters we understand/sympathize with more than others and on a show with 2 main characters, Sam just isn't that character for me.

[Reganne]

3 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

Then along came FI and it was all downhill from there, he never acknowledged any wrong for all the things he did because he meant to do them, because of his arrogance and ego.

I will never understand this.  The whole of season 5 was Sam saying he was at fault.  He apologized many times including at the end of Lucifer Rising and in Sympathu for the devil which is another way of admitting he was wrong.  He admitted he let Lucifer out which was seen as a mistake and said because of that, he should be the one to put him back.  I don't get what more people want.  Was Sam suppose to apologize and bring up his mistakes in every episode of the season.  I find with a lot of people here, no matter what Sam does it will never be enough for them.

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Are you meaning to refer to Lazarus Rising when Dean had just gotten out of Hell. Like literally what a couple of days before? Also, he didn't actually toss it out the window. He tossed it into the backseat.

Dean hasn't made fun of Sam for being girly since like s3.  Not that I can recall. He's always made fun of Sam's hair and hilariously in the most recent episode, a villain actually did grab Sam by his hair.  Dean doesn't really want to cut off Sam's hair. It's a teasing thing. Which is way different than Sam telling Dean he treats Sam like a child, (when Dean really wasn't at all). He put Sam in charge of the rescue part of the mission if needed.  And Sam failed.

I don't think it's really quite apt to compare sibling teasing to serious issues of how they see each other and themselves in the dynamic of the family.

Someone brought up Sam judging Dean for things he likes.  I was merely pointing out that Dean has done that too and used that example as Dean judging Sam's taste in music which he did.  Dean does judge Sam for being nerdy and what he considers lame.  They are brothers that have that typical banter but Sam is the only one to get criticized for it.

[Reganne]

17 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

Speaking for myself, I pretty much agree with most of what @Aeryn13 posted. I don't think Sam is horrible,  I just don't connect with him or understand him without pretzel logic and reading @AwesomO4000

So no, I don't hate Sam, yes I often find fault in him but IMO it's normal to have characters we understand/sympathize with more than others and on a show with 2 main characters, Sam just isn't that character for me.

I understand having favourites.  Obviously Sam is my favourite but that doesn't mean I can't see the positives in Dean and admit to Sam making mistakes.  I just find a lot of people on this board so one sided.  Everything Sam does is wrong or for the wrong reasons and Dean is always in the right.  Dean is the perfect sacrificing brother and Sam is painted as the ungrateful, selfish, only does things for himself and now apparently doesn't even like his brother.    Honestly if  Dean were the perfect character that people make him out to be so that his only flaw is how he would sacrifice himself for his family because he is just that godly of a man, he would be absolutely boring for me and that isn't the Dean Winchester I see.

Edited April 29, 2018 by Reganne

[catrox14]

13 minutes ago, Reganne said:

Someone brought up Sam judging Dean for things he likes.  I was merely pointing out that Dean has done that too and used that example as Dean judging Sam's taste in music which he did.  Dean does judge Sam for being nerdy and what he considers lame.  They are brothers that have that typical banter but Sam is the only one to get criticized for it.

Dean absolutely has judged Sam about serious life choices Sam has made. And Sam has judged Dean about serious life choices.  Additionally, I do think Sam JUDGES Dean about his taste in food and music whereas I think  Dean teases Sam without judgment about his hair and nerdiness.

And maybe that perception is due to Jared's acting which in those moments which left me with that impression. It never seems like Sam really likes Dean even if he respects him as a hunter and cares for him as his brother.

[Aeryn13]

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I will never understand this.  The whole of season 5 was Sam saying he was at fault.  He apologized many times including at the end of Lucifer Rising and in Sympathu for the devil which is another way of admitting he was wrong.  He admitted he let Lucifer out which was seen as a mistake and said because of that, he should be the one to put him back.  

Because if your problem with the character wasn`t that he let Lucifer out, then "putting him back in" isn`t really the solution that works for you. My problem with him was "I`m the big hero, hear me roar". And neither he nor the narrative acknowledged that as his flaw. And the solution was...that he was the big hero. That`s like pouring gasoline onto the fire. It made nothing better for me but everything worse. 

After that, after 5.22, I considered both Season 4 and 5 a wash. The parts I had previously liked were now worthless and the parts I didn`t like were that much worse. 

Quote

The more I think about it the more I think my problem with both Sam and Dean is that the show and TPTB are always telling me things about each character that I don't see or believe(see also season 8 matureSam arc and season 9 and 12 selfishDean arcs). Don't even get me started on MaryNotJustaMotherMary! I don't like to see the characters I've emotionally invested in and cared about for so long being reduced to unflattering caricature like depictions of what should be fully fleshed out, complex characterizations of said characters at this point.

I agree. Thar`s a big problem for me.

And Mary last Season was the perfect example. The writers and also the actress kept spouting that "such a badass and obviously great she is more than nightgown!Mary like her sons, especially that childishly clingy Dean expects her to be, I mean how imature and unreasonable can that be when she is just so great and sympathetic and in the right?"

Which was not at all what I saw onscreen. 

The more they kept talking and telling me what I was supposed to feel about the character, the more I hated her. Sam Smith waxing poetic about her just makes the character more disdainful for me. 

They do the same with Dean in reverse. When Singer speaks he tells me about stupid Dean or irrational Dean or crazy Dean with no actual positive trait - in that vein, I`d like to adress the above question of "do you see any positives at all in the character?" to Singer, just for Dean, he has said positive stuff about Sam - and it just makes me dig in more in Dean`s defense.

Edited April 29, 2018 by Aeryn13

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, companionenvy said:

No one is obligated to answer this. But if anyone's interested, I"ll put it out there: do those of you who consider yourselves Dean fans actually see anything admirable or positive about Sam's character? 

It's probably hard to believe, but I started out the show as 100% Team Winchester. Even today, I have the somewhat unpopular opinion that I like the co-dependent, do anything for each other brotherhood. I loved the Sam that refused to let Dean die in Faith, and while he was sorry about the man who died in Dean's place, he didn't regret it. I loved the Dean that went to the crossroads for his dead brother. I never saw anything like it on TV before, and I have to say, Ioved it. I have always rolled my eyes a little at Dean's bossiness and Sam's entitled 'little brother' status, but it's a dynamic I understand, and I find it entertaining to see it on the screen. I think choosing sides is human nature, and I fully admit to being on Dean's side in most of their conflicts.

You asked if there is anything admirable about Sam as a character, and I say yes, there is. I think he's almost always well-intentioned and has a good heart. He's protective and smart, and I don't blame him for trying to have a different life. But for me, over the seasons, he just became more and more self-centered, and I can't think of a better word for it, bitchy. In trying to make him the studious, 'mature' brother, they made him sullen, arrogant and joyless. The resting bitch-face seems to have become his default. My favourite thing about Baby was them actually talking, Sam letting loose a little, the brothers acting like friends. A little more of that would go a LONG way toward softening my attitude about Sam and get me back on Team Winchester. The end of this week's episode could've given us some of that, with really only a little tweaking. Instead, they left me with the impression of yet another installment of All About Sam, co-starring bossy, controlling Dean.

Edited April 29, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[Reganne]

14 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Because if your problem with the character wasn`t that he let Lucifer out, then "putting him back in" isn`t really the solution that works for you. My problem with him was "I`m the big hero, hear me roar". And neither he nor the narrative acknowledged that as his flaw. And the solution was...that he was the big hero. That`s like pouring gasoline onto the fire. It made nothing better for me but everything worse. 

After that, after 5.22, I considered both Season 4 and 5 a wash. The parts I had previously liked were now worthless and the parts I didn`t like were that much worse. 

I think that was because Sam wasn't addicted to the demon blood anymore and it was the demon blood that gave him those powers that allowed him to feel that way.  That he was strong enough to take on Lilith. Sam's approach in season 5 was much more different for me.  Sullen almost, like yeah I'm going to try this.  In the scene where they approach Lucifer, you can see the fear in Sam.  For me, I always felt that Sam wasn't nearly as confident in season 5 as he was in season 4.  He had this plan as his last ditch effort to put things right again.  Letting Lucifer out of the cage was the consequences of Sam's addiction and the arrogance he showed in season 4.  Putting Lucifer back in the cage and enduring hell with Lucifer in cage was his redemption for me.  I guess in your case, you would have rather Sam sit it out and let Dean take care of it so Sam could learn the lesson you think he needed, but for me that would have been Sam (who took the brunt of the blame from other hunters, etc) in season 5 getting Dean his older brother to clean up his mess.  Sam needed to set things right.

Edited April 29, 2018 by Reganne

[ahrtee]

2 hours ago, companionenvy said:

Everyone is entitled to their opinions. But speaking only for myself, it is really exhausting. And the irony -- as I've said before -- is that I don't actually consider myself a Sam fan. I'm bi-bro, and think Dean is generally the better written and more compelling character. I sometimes criticize Sam, who can indeed be supercilious and manipulative. I just have no interest in putting the worst possible construction on everything he does, and think that - some recent exaggeration of his dourness notwithstanding -- his flaws generally arise from a sympathetic place, just as Dean's do. Dean isn't the only one to have had a traumatic childhood and have suffered losses, just as Sam isn't the only one to have lied to his brother, done irresponsible and risky things, or adopted a my way or the highway approach to what is ostensibly a partnership. Maybe Sam's sins, if we total them up, are worse (and maybe they aren't, and probably it depends on one's perspective), but there's plenty of blame to go around - and, I would hope, plenty of sympathy and recognition of mitigating positive qualities. 

No one is obligated to answer this. But if anyone's interested, I"ll put it out there: do those of you who consider yourselves Dean fans actually see anything admirable or positive about Sam's character? 

I have to say that I try to stay the hell out of the BvJ thread and I'm the one (or maybe one of the ones) who suggested the "bitter spoilers" thread because I was so tired of people *anticipating* that their favorite would be "thrown under the bus" and being angry in advance.  Those who look for insults to their favorites will find them, even if they weren't intended, and often even if no one else sees it.  Not all criticism is an insult, and every comment posted here is based on someone's personal interpretation, colored by one's *perceptions* of what happened (which we know varies wildly from person to person) and filtered through his/her own personal hot buttons, so what may seem like an innocent comment to one person may come across as a deadly insult to another.  

My problem is that so many comments have been *taken* as insults and trigger a violent backlash of attack/defense on all sides as if, to prove that your favorite is not that bad, you have to prove that the other one is *worse.* This is NOT a zero-sum game, and it's not black and white, where you either love someone or hate him.  

Personally, I identify with Dean more (despite being the younger sibling myself.)  I dislike much of Sam's behavior with him, which may color my feelings towards him as a brother, but I don't think he's a bad person.  I also don't see the character assassination of him that so many seem to.  They've both done stupid things, usually with good intentions.  They've *both* been punished (by the fans, if not the writers!)  And IMO, with all the ups and downs over the past 13 years, they're pretty equal in wrongdoing, faults, blame and finger-pointing.  I'm tired of people keeping score and using that as an excuse to complain, when everyone has a different score card (and a different way of scoring) in their own minds.    

As so many have pointed out, BOTH Winchesters are flawed, which is what makes them interesting.  I have my own preferences about behavior and attitudes--which ones bother me, which ones I can handwave.  It doesn't mean I *hate* Sam or think Dean is perfect, and TBH, most of what I've seen on this site has been people denying that they think either one is always right (or wrong). 

I think there are many valid criticisms expressed here, and I don't see it as "hatred" towards either one.  I do see a lot of defensiveness and justifications.  But at this stage of the game, and especially when we're discussing events that happened 8, 9, or even 13 years ago, no one is going to change their opinion, and we're never going to reach a consensus about who was right or who was mistreated more, so all that does is build bad will among the posters.  

So I watch to see what's going to happen next.  I may be pissed at the writing, or the characterization, or even the characters themselves.  It doesn't mean I hate any of them, or I'd just stop watching altogether.  I'm more tempted to just stop reading the forum and enjoy (or dislike) the show on its own merits.

//getting off my soapbox now//

Edited April 29, 2018 by ahrtee

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Putting Lucifer back in the cage and enduring hell with Lucifer in cage was his redemption for me.  I guess in your case, you would have rather Sam sit it out and let Dean take of it,

I would have prefered a joint venture where they both said "yes" and both overcame their respective archangels. 

The way it happened ensured that I would never, ever see it as Sam`s redemption for Season 4. As for enduring hell, the way they set it up with diminishing Dean`s by having himself compare it to Disneyland when of course Sam would suffer so much worse and so much longer? Exactly the zero sum game that is guaranteed to get my hackles up on Dean`s behalf. 

And what they did do Dean in 5.22 clinched the deal. I wasn`t a fan of Season 3, hated it for the most part. I felt rejuvenated with Dean seemingly getting an arc of his own during Season 4. Loved Lazarus Rising for that reason. It was why I invested back into the show. 

Then the Season 5 Finale happened and well, it was "why did they even bother?" Dean could have stayed gone after Season 3 and you can have the "Sam conquers Lucifer on account of his own memories" conclusion just the same. I hate every single second of this episode and always will. 

After that, a part of me was just (and keeps being) done with the show. Of course how Gamble started Season 6 just put insult to injury for me. 

[Reganne]

4 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I would have prefered a joint venture where they both said "yes" and both overcame their respective archangels. 

 

Fair enough.  

[Reganne]

7 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

 

My problem is that so many comments have been *taken* as insults and trigger a violent backlash of attack/defense on all sides as if, to prove that your favorite is not that bad, you have to prove that the other one is *worse.* This is NOT a zero-sum game, and it's not black and white, where you either love someone or hate him.  

 

I don't think it's a matter of proving the other one worse.  It's a matter of showing a different perspective where both characters have flaws.  If one character is constantly getting vilified for acting one way, of course fans of that particular character are going to go "Hey wait a minute, the other character did something similar here.  Why is that okay?"  They're not trying to say their favourite is better, they're trying to show that both characters have behaved in not the best of ways at times.  It's a valid question IMO.  

[gonzosgirrl]

27 minutes ago, Reganne said:

I don't think it's a matter of proving the other one worse.  It's a matter of showing a different perspective where both characters have flaws.  If one character is constantly getting vilified for acting one way, of course fans of that particular character are going to go "Hey wait a minute, the other character did something similar here.  Why is that okay?"  They're not trying to say their favourite is better, they're trying to show that both characters have behaved in not the best of ways at times.  It's a valid question IMO.  

But on the other hand, sometimes we can just be pissed off at what they did to/with one of them (generally with our own favourite) without it being relative to what might or might not have happened with the other. But when that displeasure is expressed, it's invariable answered with a 'yes, but...'. And the wheels on the bus go 'round and 'round.

Edited April 29, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[trxr4kids]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

Not all criticism is an insult, and every comment posted here is based on someone's personal interpretation, colored by one's *perceptions* of what happened (which we know varies wildly from person to person) and filtered through his/her own personal hot buttons, so what may seem like an innocent comment to one person may come across as a deadly insult to another.  

My problem is that so many comments have been *taken* as insults and trigger a violent backlash of attack/defense on all sides as if, to prove that your favorite is not that bad, you have to prove that the other one is *worse.* This is NOT a zero-sum game, and it's not black and white, where you either love someone or hate him.  

I agree with this 100%. I remember several times in the Dean thread where people where discussing Dean (shocking, I know) and seeing comments about along the lines of Sam also had a tragic childhood and it wasn't Sam's fault that x happened and I remember thinking yeah and your point, we were discussing Dean, in the Dean thread even. I primarily post in this thread for just that reason, anything I post about Dean somehow gets warped around to I'm picking on Sam just because I happen to understand and sympathize with Dean more.

[DeeDee79]

5 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

I agree with this 100%. I remember several times in the Dean thread where people where discussing Dean (shocking, I know) and seeing comments about along the lines of Sam also had a tragic childhood and it wasn't Sam's fault that x happened and I remember thinking yeah and your point, we were discussing Dean, in the Dean thread even. I primarily post in this thread for just that reason, anything I post about Dean somehow gets warped around to I'm picking on Sam just because I happen to understand and sympathize with Dean more.

That's beyond annoying IMO. A friendly conversation about Dean in the thread for Dean and it still turns into BvJ. Actually most threads tend to turn into BvJ these days. *sigh*

[Reganne]

49 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

But on the other hand, sometimes we can just be pissed off at what they did to/with one of them (generally with our own favourite) without it being relative to what might or might not have happened with the other. But when that displeasure is expressed, it's invariable answered with a 'yes, but...'. And the wheels on the bus go 'round and 'round.

The wheels on the bus do go round.  I guess I just get tired of the constant narrative of Sam is the most awful brother ever that I feel the need to speak up even if my opinion is the unpopular one here.  If the wheels go round, then so be it.  If there are people here constantly saying negative things about Dean, his fans speak up as well.  

[cavelupum]

It boggles my mind that some folks here genuinely believe Sam dislikes his brother based on what I always viewed as a kind of typical sibling dynamic they both contribute to in various ways as two very different people.

 

In 11.02, absent any kind of audience it could otherwise be argued he was putting on a show for, Sam prayed to God, pleading for better for Dean and saying his brother deserved a life, even if he himself had to die for his sin of releasing the Darkness. This was with his face still busted up from his encounter with MoC!Dean, likely not even twenty-four hours after his mock execution (a well-documented form of psychological torture) during which he spent what he thought would be his last moments telling Dean that he would never see him as anything but good and expressing his faith that Dean would find his way back to the light.

 

I can only hope the people in my life dislike me as much as Sam dislikes Dean.

Edited April 30, 2018 by cavelupum

[ahrtee]

22 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

I'm not going to go combing this and other threads, but I'm pretty sure people have said all of those things about Sam, if not in so many words. In the past day alone,, several posters have opined that Sam doesn't even seem to like Dean, that Sam is persistently judgmental, and that he has a superiority complex. We have had discussions in which every example of Sam saying something nice to Dean has been met with a reason for what ulterior motive Sam could have had for saying it. When Sam appeared to empathize with Gabriel and Jack this season, there were people accusing him in both cases of pure manipulation and suggesting that Sam only ever tends to empathize with people when he sees them as directly parallel to himself anyway. Whenever Sam challenges Dean on literally anything, there will be comments all over the episode threads about how Sam is not showing sufficient concern for Dean's emotional state, invalidating his feelings, or asserting his superiority. Or else he's being a whiny baby. Almost any time an episode gives Sam either the bulk of the physical heroics or the central emotional focus, the site is filled with comments about how it is always all about Sam, and how Dean is basically a sidekick (talk about hyperbole). When any spoilers involving Sam having a plot come out, it's "So another season where Dean does nothing."

And again, I don't see an equivalent pattern of responses to Dean. As Reganne said, the criticisms of Sam seem to be at such a fundamental level of character - arrogant, manipulative, unapologetic, insensitive- that it is really, really hard to see that as compatible with still being a decent person or sympathetic character. Whereas criticisms of Dean - he's reckless, excessively co-dependent, not willing enough to speak up for himself -- don't, IMO, get to quite that level, and some of them actually wind up being veiled criticisms of Sam: i.e, Dean is weak because he lets Sam walk all over him and doesn't tell him off.

I never said people *haven't* said any of that about Sam, just the blanket statements that he "always" does this or that.  As far as I can tell, the only *always* anywhere in the show is that, like it or not, Dean *always* tries to protect Sam, even when it doesn't work.  Even when Sam doesn't want it.   Some may see that as a positive, some as a massive problem.  But that's opinion and interpretation.  

I have an entirely different interpretation than you.  So we can just agree to disagree and back out.  

[catrox14]

14 minutes ago, cavelupum said:

It boggles my mind that some folks here genuinely believe Sam dislikes his brother based on what I always viewed as a kind of typical sibling dynamic they both contribute to in various ways as two very different people.

 

In 10.02, absent any kind of audience it could otherwise be argued he was putting on a show for, Sam prayed to God, pleading for better for Dean and saying his brother deserved a life, even if he himself had to die for his sin of releasing the Darkness. This was with his face still busted up from his encounter with MoC!Dean, likely not even twenty-four hours after his mock execution (a well-documented form of psychological torture) during which he spent what he thought would be his last moments telling Dean that he would never see him as anything but good and expressing his faith that Dean would find his way back to the light.

 

I can only hope the people in my life dislike me as much as Sam dislikes Dean.

You can pray for someone despite not liking them.

[Res]

17 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

You can pray for someone despite not liking them.

Exactly! My mother gave me a note stating how she is always praying for my soul and wish I would go back to the church and yet believes I'm white trash for having a child out of wedlock, am a satanist because I watch and love this show. She barely talks to me and didn't even check on me while she knew I was sick. She doesn't like me at all, has disowned me and kicked me out more than once. Yet she says she loves me and prays for me all the time. I'm quite aware of people who profess love to people who disgust them, who they look down on from their ivory towers, and who only love because they are supposed to but secretly wish that person would just disappear from their lives.

[DeeDee79]

4 minutes ago, Res said:

Exactly! My mother gave me a note stating how she is always praying for my soul and wish I would go back to the church and yet believes I'm white trash for having a child out of wedlock, am a satanist because I watch and love this show. She barely talks to me and didn't even check on me while she knew I was sick. She doesn't like me at all, has disowned me and kicked me out more than once. Yet she says she loves me and prays for me all the time. I'm quite aware of people who profess love to people who disgust them, who they look down on from their ivory towers, and who only love because they are supposed to but secretly wish that person would just disappear from their lives.

I agree with your point and I’m so sorry that you had to go through all of that!

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I think the part of the thread title that says who the writers screwed this week gets lost.

Not on my part. On my part, I think this is the main focus of many of my posts... however, few seem to respond to those parts of my posts.

1 hour ago, companionenvy said:

I'm not going to go combing this and other threads, but I'm pretty sure people have said all of those things about Sam, if not in so many words. In the past day alone,, several posters have opined that Sam doesn't even seem to like Dean, that Sam is persistently judgmental, and that he has a superiority complex. We have had discussions in which every example of Sam saying something nice to Dean has been met with a reason for what ulterior motive Sam could have had for saying it. When Sam appeared to empathize with Gabriel and Jack this season, there were people accusing him in both cases of pure manipulation and suggesting that Sam only ever tends to empathize with people when he sees them as directly parallel to himself anyway. Whenever Sam challenges Dean on literally anything, there will be comments all over the episode threads about how Sam is not showing sufficient concern for Dean's emotional state, invalidating his feelings, or asserting his superiority. Or else he's being a whiny baby. Almost any time an episode gives Sam either the bulk of the physical heroics or the central emotional focus, the site is filled with comments about how it is always all about Sam, and how Dean is basically a sidekick (talk about hyperbole). When any spoilers involving Sam having a plot come out, it's "So another season where Dean does nothing."

And again, I don't see an equivalent pattern of responses to Dean. As Reganne said, the criticisms of Sam seem to be at such a fundamental level of character - arrogant, manipulative, unapologetic, insensitive- that it is really, really hard to see that as compatible with still being a decent person or sympathetic character. Whereas criticisms of Dean - he's reckless, excessively co-dependent, not willing enough to speak up for himself -- don't, IMO, get to quite that level, and some of them actually wind up being veiled criticisms of Sam: i.e, Dean is weak because he lets Sam walk all over him and doesn't tell him off.

So much this.

And you forgot the Sam wants Dean to just be a follower and do whatever he says without question - also brought up more than once today - even though Sam is often the one to ask Dean what the plan is, and if Dean says "We go in guns blazing" Sam responds "Great. Let's do this." How "wanting to be the leader" of Sam.

5 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

My problem with him was "I`m the big hero, hear me roar". And neither he nor the narrative acknowledged that as his flaw. And the solution was...that he was the big hero. That`s like pouring gasoline onto the fire. It made nothing better for me but everything worse.

But is this complaint mainly because it was Sam? For me, this same statement could also describe Dean in season 9, except that Dean had some help saving the world...*** ironically some of it from the being who he helped stay in Sam by lying to him. Dean still got to have a crucial part in the world saving and he got to have the tragic hero death. There was no acknowledgement of the mistakes Dean made by the narrative, and any that were were later disproven by the finale. Sam spent the entire thing knocked out - by Dean. Dean's "punishment" was that he turned into a demon... horrible for Dean, yes, but there were no global consequences caused by Dean. What Dean did to Sam - according to the narrative - helped. Dean's "Ruby" was redeemed and Sam made by the narrative to call him a "friend." But none of this generally gets a complaint (except by me) - because it wasn't Dean being put in the crappy position by the narrative.

(And again my complaint here is the writers... I think both brothers while misguided and doing some wrong, generally came at things from trying to do something good first or working from awful situations that twisted their motivation. My complaint is that the consequences were lopsided.)

*** I think Sam did, too, but others don't, so I took that out of the equation.

30 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

You can pray for someone despite not liking them.

Sure, but why would you talk about them deserving a good life rather than saying something like "and help him to be better" or "overlook his faults" or anything like that.

This was Sam with no motivation to lie or think anyone would be hearing him except maybe God if he was listening. So why despite the emotion in Sam's his voice and his praise of Dean, does there also have to be some question of if Sam really means it or not? It seems to me even when Sam is doing something good, it's assumed that he's got some ulterior motive or it's some anomaly.

Sam often praises Dean and says positive things to him with no motivation except to make Dean feel better or let Dean know how much he cares. I could name about a half a dozen things off the top of my head, but it often seems that I'm in a small minority that even remembers these incidences and doesn't focus on the few times Sam's motivations can, maybe, be not entirely pure if looked at enough... and those are apparently the main ones that are used as examples.

Edited to add: Yes, @Res I am sorry to hear that you had those experiences.

Edited April 30, 2018 by AwesomO4000

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Sure, but why would you talk about them deserving a good life rather than saying something like "and help him to be better" or "overlook his faults" or anyt

Because you can pray for good things for someone even if you don't like them. Didn't Jesus pray for his enemies? I'm not saying Sam thinks Dean is an enemy. You can love  someone even if you don't like them.

[ILoveReading]

Sorry to hear about experiences Res. 

As contradictory as it sounds I do think Sam loves Dean, and does what him to be happy.  Its never the big things.  It was the little things that I've found lacking  increasingly since season 4.

Maybe a better way to phrase it, isn't so much that Sam doesn't like Dean.  I don't feel like he has much respect for him, for all the reasons previously stated. 

[AwesomO4000]

Just now, catrox14 said:

Because you can pray for good things for someone even if you don't like them. Didn't Jesus pray for his enemies? I'm not saying Sam thinks Dean is an enemy. You can love  someone even if you don't like them.

Sam isn't Jesus, so why would he be acting like Jesus and wishing good things for someone he doesn't like without asking for help for them to change too? And later in that season, Sam tels Charlie that he wants to be hunting, but he doesn't want to be doing it without Dean. Why would he say/want that if he doesn't like Dean and hunting with Dean? Why wouldn't he just say he wanted to save his brother because he's family. Why would he care so much about "getting his brother back" if he doesn't even like him?

Whatever... It doesn't matter what Sam does if even his praying that Dean should get the good life he deserves = but of course he still doesn't like Dean.

[AwesomO4000]

8 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Maybe a better way to phrase it, isn't so much that Sam doesn't like Dean.  I don't feel like he has much respect for him, for all the reasons previously stated. 

I honestly don't see this any more. Maybe some in the early seasons, and many of those came from two or three episodes, and those were the only episodes that writer wrote.

But both brothers have had questionable moments of not having much respect for the other though. That doesn't mean - to me - that that's the way they think all the time or even most of the time.

Edited April 30, 2018 by AwesomO4000

[ahrtee]

26 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Because you can pray for good things for someone even if you don't like them. Didn't Jesus pray for his enemies? I'm not saying Sam thinks Dean is an enemy. You can love  someone even if you don't like them.

I love my sister.  She's the only family I have left (aside from a few odd cousins a couple of thousand miles away.)  But we have nothing much in common, we fight pretty much every time we're together and I realized a few years ago that I don't like her very much--which is basically that I dislike the way she treats me and the way *I* become a little kid around her, even at my advanced age. :)   It doesn't mean she's not a good person or has ever done anything to me except hurt my feelings...it just means that we don't have anything except family in common, and (something we realized back when we were teens) if we hadn't been family we probably would never even have met, because we run in completely opposite circles.  But I admire her for some of the same qualities that drive me crazy; I respect her abilities and determination even though I don't believe in the same things she does.  I just dropped everything and flew 1500 miles on one hour's notice when she needed me; and I do trust that, if I really need support, she'll give it.  We have shared memories in common.  It's only when we try to do things together that we grate on each other.  

[DeeDee79]

12 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I love my sister.  She's the only family I have left (aside from a few odd cousins a couple of thousand miles away.)  But we have nothing much in common, we fight pretty much every time we're together and I realized a few years ago that I don't like her very much--which is basically that I dislike the way she treats me and the way *I* become a little kid around her, even at my advanced age. :)   It doesn't mean she's not a good person or has ever done anything to me except hurt my feelings...it just means that we don't have anything except family in common, and (something we realized back when we were teens) if we hadn't been family we probably would never even have met, because we run in completely opposite circles.  But I admire her for some of the same qualities that drive me crazy; I respect her abilities and determination even though I don't believe in the same things she does.  I just dropped everything and flew 1500 miles on one hour's notice when she needed me; and I do trust that, if I really need support, she'll give it.  We have shared memories in common.  It's only when we try to do things together that we grate on each other.  

I agree. I love both of my brothers but I don't like my oldest brother because he's basically forgotten that he has two parents and siblings that would appreciate some acknowledgment beyond when he needs something from one of us. After my mother had major surgery last summer and he didn't call or come by to see how she was doing we ( my other brother and I ) washed our hands of him but my parents don't have it in them to do the same. I still love him because he's my blood and I have fond memories of him but I dislike him intensely. So to reiterate @catrox14's statement it is entirely possible to love and pray for someone while disliking them.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, cavelupum said:

It boggles my mind that some folks here genuinely believe Sam dislikes his brother based on what I always viewed as a kind of typical sibling dynamic they both contribute to in various ways as two very different people.

 

In 10.02, absent any kind of audience it could otherwise be argued he was putting on a show for, Sam prayed to God, pleading for better for Dean and saying his brother deserved a life, even if he himself had to die for his sin of releasing the Darkness. This was with his face still busted up from his encounter with MoC!Dean, likely not even twenty-four hours after his mock execution (a well-documented form of psychological torture) during which he spent what he thought would be his last moments telling Dean that he would never see him as anything but good and expressing his faith that Dean would find his way back to the light.

 

I can only hope the people in my life dislike me as much as Sam dislikes Dean.

I'm assuming you meant 11x02, and this is what Sam prays for:

Quote

SAM: So . . . I know it's been a long time, but . . . Dean and I, we've -- we've been through a lot of bad. But this is different. This is my fault, and I don't know how to fix it. And if I have to die, I've made my peace with that, but . . . Please. Dean deserves better. Dean deserves a life.

I'll agree, it was good that Sam took responsibility for the Darkness - even though that changes throughout the season to include Dean, mostly from Dean himself - and yes, he did ask for Dean to be spared. I applaud that, and it's what I want from both brothers*. I believe Sam loves Dean, and he would ask for his life to be spared, even offer to trade his own. But loving someone, and liking, respecting and/or admiring them are not the same thing, and I don't think Sam does.  Unfortunately that's the overall vibe I get from Sam's words and actions. I won't deny that he has had moments where it wasn't like that, just like I won't deny that Dean has said and done some dickish things to him. But these are the impressions I have of the relationship as a whole, over 13 seasons.

*And if we're parsing words, there is no compliment for Dean in these words, no "my brother is a good man', it is a plea for his life, an admission that he doesn't deserve to die for Sam's mistake.

Edited April 30, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[Reganne]

49 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I honestly don't see this any more. Maybe some in the early seasons, and many of those came from two or three episodes, and those were the only episodes that writer wrote.

But both brothers have had questionable moments of not having much respect for the other though. That doesn't mean - to me - that that's the way they think all the time or even most of the time.

I agree, if Sam didn't respect Dean, I also don't think he would be comfortable in a dynamic where Dean is often the leader amongst the two of them.  As Sam has said in the series, he had been looking up to Dean since he was 4.  Trying to be like his big brother.  He has also thanked Dean on at least two occasions that I can think of for always being there and having his back.  That is another way he shows respect IMO.

[AwesomO4000]

11 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

So to reiterate @catrox14's statement it is entirely possible to love and pray for someone while disliking them.

And I can agree with this and still not agree that Sam doesn't like Dean. Until I see consistent canon evidence of this in the show, I'm not going to think that's the way it is. And what I mean by consistent evidence is not a moment or time when Sam might be angry or annoyed with Dean and so might be thinking differently at that moment. For example just because Dean expressed during early season 5 that being with Sam hadn't been fun for years didn't mean to me that Dean doesn't like Sam. It meant that Dean wasn't happy with Sam at that moment in time and so was looking at things differently.

And currently - and especially after Sam saying that he wouldn't want to be hunting if he couldn't hunt with Dean (and why would he want to spend so much time hunting with someone he didn't like - that would be crazy in my opinion considering all of the drive time and hotel rooms together, etc.) - it looks to me like Sam likes Dean and likes being with him...

Now under Carver in season 8... sure. I don't think either one of them liked each other based on how Carver wrote them that season. Not only did I think they didn't like each other - I didn't like either one of them either. It's one of the reasons it's my least favorite season of the show (yup even worse than 12. At least 3/4+ of season 12's episodes didn't piss me off. *shrug*)

[DeeDee79]

Just now, AwesomO4000 said:

And I can agree with this and still not agree that Sam doesn't like Dean. Until I see consistent canon evidence of this in the show, I'm not going to think that's the way it is.

*sigh* My post in no way said that I thought that Sam didn't like Dean nor did it say that you had to agree. In fact, the entirety of my post was to give an example of my own life to illustrate why I agree with @catrox's point. 

[ILoveReading]

23 minutes ago, Reganne said:

I also don't think he would be comfortable in a dynamic where Dean is often the leader amongst the two of them.  As Sam has said in the series, he had been looking up to Dean since he was 4.  Trying to be like his big brother

Is Sam comfortable with this dynamic?  He certainly didn' like Dean expressing his opinion about Ruby.  (I had to get away from you because she didn't make me feel like your kid brother).  As we saw just this week, Sam accused Dean of putting him at the kiddie table.  Dean made a decision that he would go, Sam would stay.  That is part of being a leader is making decisions other's won't like to hear.

I find when Dean tries to lead, Sam often rebels and pulls out the little brother card.  Honestly, Sam comes across to me as someone who wants to be in charge, not follow.

We have Sam saying he looks up to Dean, but have we ever really seen this?  It seems more often than not Sam acts very condescending towards Dean and looks down him him.  Dean's EMF meter comes to mind.  I don't feel flashbacks show the brothers are being particularly close, as Sam coudn't wait to get away.  In Darkside of the Moon, Dean had to point out Sam left him too.  Sam didn't even notice that when he left John behind, he left Dean behind too.  That to me doesn't sound like Dean was a priority for Sam. 

[Reganne]

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

Is Sam comfortable with this dynamic?  He certainly didn' like Dean expressing his opinion about Ruby.  (I had to get away from you because she didn't make me feel like your kid brother).  As we saw just this week, Sam accused Dean of putting him at the kiddie table.  Dean made a decision that he would go, Sam would stay.  That is part of being a leader is making decisions other's won't like to hear.

I find when Dean tries to lead, Sam often rebels and pulls out the little brother card.  Honestly, Sam comes across to me as someone who wants to be in charge, not follow.

We have Sam saying he looks up to Dean, but have we ever really seen this?  It seems more often than not Sam acts very condescending towards Dean and looks down him him.  Dean's EMF meter comes to mind.  I don't feel flashbacks show the brothers are being particularly close, as Sam coudn't wait to get away.  In Darkside of the Moon, Dean had to point out Sam left him too.  Sam didn't even notice that when he left John behind, he left Dean behind too.  That to me doesn't sound like Dean was a priority for Sam. 

For the most part Sam does follow Dean.  Dean has always been more of the leader.  That doesn't mean that Sam isn't ever going to have an opinion  on something or disagree with him.  Just bc you disagree with someone, that doesn't mean you don't respect or like them.

 

People go to college.  They are allowed to live their own lives.  That still doesn't mean they don't like or respect them.  In fact, Dean should have respected Sam's choice to go to college.  Sam believed his family wouldn't care about his achievements in college in the pilot as he said that to Jessica, so obviously no one had congratulated or appreciated the fact that Sam was trying to get an education.  

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, Reganne said:

For the most part Sam does follow Dean.  Dean has always been more of the leader.  That doesn't mean that Sam isn't ever going to have an opinion  on something or disagree with him.  Just bc you disagree with someone, that doesn't mean you don't respect or like them.

 

Sam might follow Dean but if his default is to complain about it, or run into the arms of a demon than I would say he's not happy following.  Yes, Sam can disagree and have an opinion but if he waits weeks before doing it, it comes off as more resentful that Sam didn't like the decision he made and rather than admit that, he puts the blame back on Dean by pulling the little brother card,

Sam going to school isn't the issue I'm discussing.  I've never had a problem with Sam wanting a life for himself, I'm saying that when Sam left he didn't even notice or care that he left Dean behind.  IMO, that's not how you treat someone you claim to admire.  YMMV.

[Reganne]

6 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Sam might follow Dean but if his default is to complain about it, or run into the arms of a demon than I would say he's not happy following.  Yes, Sam can disagree and have an opinion but if he waits weeks before doing it, it comes off as more resentful that Sam didn't like the decision he made and rather than admit that, he puts the blame back on Dean by pulling the little brother card,

Sam going to school isn't the issue I'm discussing.  I've never had a problem with Sam wanting a life for himself, I'm saying that when Sam left he didn't even notice or care that he left Dean behind.  IMO, that's not how you treat someone you claim to admire.  YMMV.

So people who go away to university and college don't admire anyone in their families because they left them behind to go to school?  Because unless Dean goes with him, then sorry the boys aren't going to be together.

 

Also I would say that Sam follows Dean by hunting period.  He has said that he wouldn't hunt without Dean.  He told Mary the reason he hunts and left his college life behind because that is where his family is.  Yes he got back into it bc of his revenge for Jessica's death but he stayed in the business because of Dean.  I think this has been said and shown through our the series.

Edited April 30, 2018 by Reganne

[belbar]

4 minutes ago, Reganne said:

Sam going to school isn't the issue I'm discussing.  I've never had a problem with Sam wanting a life for himself, I'm saying that when Sam left he didn't even notice or care that he left Dean behind.  IMO, that's not how you treat someone you claim to admire.  YMMV.

This.

[Reganne]

8 minutes ago, belbar said:

This.

That's weird that the quote says I said that.

[cavelupum]

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I'm assuming you meant 11x02, and this is what Sam prays for:

I'll agree, it was good that Sam took responsibility for the Darkness - even though that changes throughout the season to include Dean, mostly from Dean himself - and yes, he did ask for Dean to be spared. I applaud that, and it's what I want from both brothers*. I believe Sam loves Dean, and he would ask for his life to be spared, even offer to trade his own. But loving someone, and liking, respecting and/or admiring them are not the same thing, and I don't think Sam does.  Unfortunately that's the overall vibe I get from Sam's words and actions. I won't deny that he has had moments where it wasn't like that, just like I won't deny that Dean has said and done some dickish things to him. But these are the impressions I have of the relationship as a whole, over 13 seasons.

*And if we're parsing words, there is no compliment for Dean in these words, no "my brother is a good man', it is a plea for his life, an admission that he doesn't deserve to die for Sam's mistake.

Ack, you’re right, I meant 11.02. I’ll edit it in a sec.

 

There isn’t a direct compliment for Dean in Sam’s prayer, it’s true, but he had plenty of good things to say about Dean in 10.23 and I think he meant every word of them. As to whether or not Sam likes Dean, we can agree to disagree. I’ll admit I found it shocking that there are so many here who believe the opposite of something I’ve never doubted, but we all view the series through different lenses colored by our own experiences and preferences.

 

FTR, and as a general response to the overall discussion, I’m well aware it’s possible to pray for someone without actually liking them, and I know a person can love and dislike another at the same time. :)