“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[companionenvy]

I guess I just don't see how it explains or clarifies Dean's position. Dean already knew that Sam was guzzling demon's blood, honing his powers to a frightening extent,  and sleeping with a demon, which led to the start of the apocalypse. Chuck telling him that Sam's eyes actually went black at the height of his addiction simply doesn't seem like all that much to add to the mix. But YMMV. 

[catrox14]

28 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

I guess I just don't see how it explains or clarifies Dean's position. Dean already knew that Sam was guzzling demon's blood, honing his powers to a frightening extent,  and sleeping with a demon, which led to the start of the apocalypse. Chuck telling him that Sam's eyes actually went black at the height of his addiction simply doesn't seem like all that much to add to the mix. But YMMV. 

I'm saying it makes that much more clear FOR ME. Cause I'm a numbnut who never knew or didn't remember that Dean had learned of Sam's eyes going black.  Again, it how Jensen played that scene. It's like he learned that his actual worst fear about Sam becoming a monster actually happened because his eyes went black like a demon.  I think it made Dean afraid for Sam and of Sam even more given Dean's close up experience with both sides of Hell and IMO it triggered some of his own Hell trauma and he couldn't deal with all of that and that he couldn't trust Sam in his heart.  Again, it was kind of a revelation FOR ME and how I interpret all of that. 

Others don't have to see it that way.

[ahrtee]

3 hours ago, companionenvy said:

I honestly don't get how that changes things. Presumably, Sam's eyes went black because he had  so much demon blood in his system that he started displaying demonic qualities.  If he stopped taking demon blood, his eyes would no longer be at risk of turning black, just like he'd no longer be able to exorcise demons with his mind. 

I can see it being jarring to recognize just how far down the path to hell Sam had gone, but I don't think it fundamentally alters the situation.

I will say that either way, I can see Dean believing that he and Sam would never be able to have quite the relationship they had before.  That' was totally fair, given the circumstances. And I say that as someone who has a lot of sympathy for S4 Sam. 

According to Cas in When the Levee Breaks:

CASTIEL
Consuming the amount of blood it would take to kill Lilith would change your brother forever. Most likely, he would become the next creature that you would feel compelled to kill. 

I would think hearing that his brother's eyes turned black would make him worry that Cas was right, and might make him watch Sam more closely and be less forgiving of anything that seemed off.

[catrox14]

14 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

According to Cas in When the Levee Breaks:

CASTIEL
Consuming the amount of blood it would take to kill Lilith would change your brother forever. Most likely, he would become the next creature that you would feel compelled to kill. 

I would think hearing that his brother's eyes turned black would make him worry that Cas was right, and might make him watch Sam more closely and be less forgiving of anything that seemed off.

Thanks for this. I kind of forgot about that part too! So that just adds so much more. Man, it's amazing how ONE line that I missed shed so much more light on Dean's head space there.

[Wayward Son]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I didn't think Dean was suicidal in that episode. He had made a conscious choice to say yes to Michael because he was convinced that Sam was going to say yes to Lucifer. And was preparing for a fight. It was a sad goodbye but he was doing it on purpose. It was Sam who decided he was killing himself, which really didn't make much sense when Sam did the same thing. But that a whole debate for another time.

Or like when he died to find Death to get Sam's soul back. Or even in s11 in Red Meat , the OD  intentional and he was banking on being revived but he was okay if he didn't live so that one felt a bit different.

In s13 he did the same thing as in s6 and I think he intended on coming back. Yet once he was dead, Billie called him out for wanting to die and he didn't deny it and admitted he felt  useless..

Technically, Sam did see allowing Lucifer to possess him as killing himself. They didn’t forsee Cas resurrecting his body or Death later retrieving his soul hence the speech to Dean about finding a good life with Lisa and Ben. Sam saw his actions as a sacrifice, but for a worthy cause.

 

The difference in Sam’s mind IMO was that his consent was a part of a much larger game plan to save as many life’s as possible. He would say yes, mind wrestle with Lucifer, and then jump into the cage when the time came. Of course one could argue it was hubris on Sam’s part to assume he would win such a match, but that was his plan.

 

On the other hand, Dean’s plan of action was essentially “Sam’s going to say yes so I might as well say yes too and take part in this epic battle which will destroy the life of billions. Better a handful of survivors than none”. Sam on the other hand, at this point, had no intention of saying yes to Lucifer so he saw Dean’s plan as dooming them all with no good reason for doing so.

Edited January 5, 2018 by Wayward Son

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

On the other hand, Dean’s plan of action was essentially “Sam’s going to say yes so I might as well say yes too and take part in this epic battle which will destroy the life of billions. Better a handful of survivors than none”. Sam on the other hand, at this point, had no intention of saying yes to Lucifer so he saw Dean’s plan as dooming them all with no good reason for doing so.

I really don't just see Dean sitting back and letting Michael destroy the world, without trying to talk some sense into Michael or at least trying to fight back in some way.

3 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Of course one could argue it was hubris on Sam’s part to assume he would win such a match, but that was his plan.

It was hubris because Sam had tried and failed twice against much lesser opponents.   He couldn't even overcome a simple ghost possession.  So its was completely unbelievable that Sam could beat Lucifer. This should have been brought up rather then everyone just jumping on Sam's plan.  It might have been a plan but it doesn't make it a good one.   Not to mention this is a plan Sam came up with while drunk and butthurt that Dean went to work with Crowley. 

It's a good thing Deans' sentimental.  If Dean treated the plastic toy the same way Sam treated the amulet, Dean would be dead and the world would be burning right now.  So Sam's plan failed on that level.

If you (general you) had a medical condition and the doctors gave you two options-

Option A- A procedure that gives you a 50/50 odds if it fails.  The person performing it has never attempted it before and suggested it as a hail Mary but he has a high success rate of being able to do things he shoudln't be able to do and is very quick on his feet and able to think out of the box and change directions if things go sideways.

Option b- Tried and failed twice against on less complicated procedures, and if it fails certain death.

I'd go with option A,

I don't' understand why Sam saying yes was supported but Dean wanting to say yes was a weakness.  When Sam's plan had just as deadly consequences as Dean's.   I could easily have been Dean saying yes to Michael as part of a lager plan to lure Lucifer into the pit, or why no one suggested this to Dean.    It didn't have to be Sam with Lucifer. 

In fact controlling Michael actually makes more sense since he's the stronger person.  Taking away Sam and Dean, and whether it was a plan or not, wouldn't it make more sense for to power up Michael with his true vessel and strike while Lucifer was on the verge of imposing because his vessel would weak. 

What kind of General would approve a plan where you hand the enemy his greatest weapon, add fuel to make it stronger, and then send out a weaker weapon to try and fight it.

Sam's saying yes had just as much potential, if not more, to destroy the world based on those factors.  Plan or no plan.

Not to mention Lucifer and Michael ended up basically being whiny brats who just wanted Daddy to love them.  I had a hard time believing a fight between those two was going to destroy half that cemetary let alone the world.

[catrox14]

54 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

The difference in Sam’s mind IMO was that his consent was a part of a much larger game plan to save as many life’s as possible. He would say yes, mind wrestle with Lucifer, and then jump into the cage when the time came. Of course one could argue it was hubris on Sam’s part to assume he would win such a match, but that was his plan.

 

On the other hand, Dean’s plan of action was essentially “Sam’s going to say yes so I might as well say yes too and take part in this epic battle which will destroy the life of billions. Better a handful of survivors than none”. Sam on the other hand, at this point, had no intention of saying yes to Lucifer so he saw Dean’s plan as dooming them all with no good reason for doing so.

I don't see it that way at all.  Dean saw an alternate future in which him not saying Yes to Michael lead to the destruction of the entire planet.  Michael!Dean fighting Lucifer!Sam  would have been only half the planet destroyed instead of the whole planet. Yes that was a Zachariah thing but there is no way to know if it was factually the future or a lie. Dean took the lesson that they had to keep each other human. That doesn't mean he wasn't right in thinking that saying yes to Michael is better than not doing anything at all. Plot contrivance at Dean's expense to get Sam into the cage alone.  (Have I said how much I hate the last quarter of s5 other than Dean meeting Death?) .

Dean believed that he needed to be ready to take on Lucifer!Sam. There is no real difference between either of them saying yes to their vessels when it came down to it. It was essentially a death mission. So why was Dean's the only being classified as "killing himself"? Because Dean was drinking and packing up his stuff over sad music?

Dean wasn't giving up on humanity. He was giving up on Sam which I guess is the greatest sin of all according to s5.

Why was everyone else so convinced that Dean was trying to kill himself and wrong when none of them had any other better plan at that point?  IIRC, the idea of Sam doing the swan dive with Lucifer wasn't suggested until after the events of PoNR.

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

    It didn't have to be Sam with Lucifer. 

It did because Sera wanted Sam to save the world alone. Sam could have still ended up being in the cage alone with Lucifer even during a battle with Michael. There was no reason why the fight couldn't have ended with Michael!Dean topside and Sam in the Cage anyway. Michael promised to free Dean after the battle IIRC. Whether one takes Michael at his word or not is up to opinion. But he did keep his word to revive Sam and Mary and he kept his promise to erase their memories. I mean yes it's shitty promises. He still kept them anyway.

He seemed to be a man of his word.  Huh, another parallel to Dean. I just realized that LOL

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Why was everyone else so convinced that Dean was trying to kill himself and wrong when none of them had any other better plan at that point?  IIRC, the idea of Sam doing the swan dive with Lucifer wasn't suggested until after the events of PoNR.

Which, in my opinion, is kind of the point. At the time Dean came up with his plan - which he did unilaterally without discussing it with Sam, Castiel, or Bobby - they were still trying to figure out how to save everybody and things weren't that desperate yet really. Things still seemed to be small scale, and we even saw examples of people potentially fighting back in "99 Problems"... and maybe that hit a bit too close to what Dean saw in "The End" for Dean, which is understandable, but Bobby, Sam, and Castiel didn't know about what happened in "The End." As far as we know, Dean didn't share. So what Sam, Cas, and Bobby saw was Dean not giving up on just Sam.... but on them also. The prophecy didn't just predict that half the people might be killed in the battle, but that things would be changed afterwards. As far as they knew, earth as they knew it would no longer exist.

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

That doesn't mean he wasn't right in thinking that saying yes to Michael is better than not doing anything at all.

In my opinion, that's debatable. Dean and Sam had seen Memorex heaven, so they kind of knew what the angels might have in mind for the rest of humanity. Dean also knew what Zachariah wanted, since he spent enough alone time with him in "Lucifer Rising," so there was - in my opinion - little chance that whatever would happen would be good for anyone except the angels.

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Dean wasn't giving up on humanity. He was giving up on Sam which I guess is the greatest sin of all according to s5.

No, not just Sam, but Castiel and Bobby as well. Also Dean was doing the usually not Dean-like, Machiavellian thing - see also below - which this show tends not to show as the right thing to do no matter which brother is doing it. In my opinion, Kripke would have been disingenuous to show it as the right thing to do here, when it was shown as the wrong thing to do when Sam did it. I personally appreciated that he kept that point of view consistent.

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I could easily have been Dean saying yes to Michael as part of a lager plan to lure Lucifer into the pit, or why no one suggested this to Dean.    It didn't have to be Sam with Lucifer.

...In fact controlling Michael actually makes more sense since he's the stronger person.  Taking away Sam and Dean, and whether it was a plan or not, wouldn't it make more sense for to power up Michael with his true vessel and strike while Lucifer was on the verge of imposing because his vessel would weak. 

This would still have accomplished the goal Zachariah wanted. Maybe it would only be a quarter of the population dead, because the fight wouldn't be as large, but it would potentially still fulfill the prophecy and ultimately change the world. Michael didn't want Lucifer back in the cage. Lucifer was in the cage to begin with. In fact, it had to be that Michael was one of the main reasons for the whole plan to get Lucifer out of the cage to begin with - which is why I contend that in his own way, he is just as evil as Lucifer (albeit in a different way). We saw in "The Song Remains the Same" that Michael is much stronger than most of the other angels. He killed Anna with just a touch. In my opinion, there is no way his underling Zachariah wasn't following orders or Zach would have been obliterated for doing very bad things against Michael's wishes long before he was killed by Dean. We know from Cupid that getting Mary and John together so that there would be Sam and Dean derived from orders way up on the hierarchy - meaning Michael. The only reason for there to be Sam and Dean as vessels would be to have the showdown. Status quo was Lucifer in the cage: no Sam and Dean necessary. That's not what Michael wanted. Michael wanted his showdown, so why would he agree to help Dean put Lucifer back in the cage, when he was most likely one of the main architects of getting Lucifer out to begin with?

And there is evidence of this, because even as Sam was going to take his swan dive, Michael shows up and tries to stop him saying that Sam can't jump in the cage, because he (Michael) has to fight Lucifer because it's his destiny. He doesn't care at all about saving the world - only about doing what he thinks is his destiny and/or what God supposedly wanted. (What a dick, in my opinion: both Michael and Chuck).

Was Sam's plan stupid and likely to fail? Yup, absolutely. Even Bobby admitted as such after Sam failed. But was Dean's plan any better? Based on what I saw of Michael and what Sam, Dean, and Castiel knew - hell no. At least Sam's plan was trying to not do what Michael and the crappy angels wanted and was more along the lines of Dean's usual philosophy of "going down fighting" than the more Machiavellian "sacrifice some to save the rest." I think it's interesting that Dean had somewhat adopted Sam's stance from "Jus In Bello" in this case whereas Sam and Castiel were the other side... no sacrificing the few to save the rest.

44 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

It did because Sera wanted Sam to save the world alone.

What did Sera have to do with it? It was Kripke's episode and finale, and as far as I know, he wrote it the way he wanted it to be written.

45 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Sam could have still ended up being in the cage alone with Lucifer even during a battle with Michael. There was no reason why the fight couldn't have ended with Michael!Dean topside and Sam in the Cage anyway.

As I hinted at above, that's debatable. It would have required Sam defeating both Lucifer and Michael to open the cage, because Michael didn't want Lucifer there either. Unless somehow Dean was supposed to change Michael's mind* or take Michael over*** and then open the portal himself and throw Sam/Lucifer in. I suppose some Dean fans would have loved that - and it still would have fulfilled the "Dean has to let Sam go" thing - but as someone who likes Sam, I think that that would have been pretty crappy for Sam's character who would have basically ended up as the sad-sack villain brother of the show. (And if that had happened, I'd have wanted Sam to have come back evil and kicked Dean's ass for coming up with that plan, because hey, at least let Sam have been a powerful villain if you're going to make him an ineffectual, crappy hero.)

And then what would have happened with Michael and Dean? I can't see Dean convincing Michael to save Sam. And what would Michael's new purpose be?

Personally I think Michael was a dick, Dean was right to decide to say "hell no!" to him, and I'm glad Michael got tossed into the pit... but I do understand that miles vary on that.

*** ...highly dubious, in my opinion, when Lucifer, who Michael supposedly loved and didn't want to kill (sure, Michael, tell me another one) couldn't even convince Michael not to kill him, whereas Michael didn't even really know Dean from Adam (hah! See what I did there?).

*** ...also dubious, in my opinion, since Michael didn't have Lucifer's fatal flaws.

[ILoveReading]

13 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

This would still have accomplished the goal Zachariah wanted.

Not really because Dean is a total wild card who doesn't follow the rules and often does things people don't expect.  Him saying yes to Michael wasn't' an automatic guarantee the world was going to end.  Because I do think Dean would have fought tooth and nail until the bitter end.  We've seen he also has a very high success rate of getting celestial beings to listen to him. 

 

16 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

What did Sera have to do with it? It was Kripke's episode and finale, and as far as I know, he wrote it the way he wanted it to be written.

It was Sera who came up with the idea of Sam being souless.  She set up the finale to make that happen.  How much Kripke wrote of the finale is debatable because the credits give credit to someone else besides Kripke for the story. 

Not to mention Kripke's story kept changing.  At the following comic con he said he said said he was shocked at how many people thought the episode was crap and at first he said he only got about 80% of what he wanted, and then later that number kept going down until it reached 50%. 

Kripke said his original ending was Sam vs Dean and it was obvious from the dialog that was what it was supposed to be.  It didn't work with Adam and Sam saying it to each each other. 

[AwesomO4000]

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

We've seen he also has a very high success rate of getting celestial beings to listen to him. 

He wasn't so good at getting Michael to listen to him previously in "The Song Remains the Same" except to bring Sam back... which wasn't that much of a concession really. Uriel didn't listen to him at all. I would say that Castiel did eventually, yes, but I can't think of too many others during the Kripke era. And Castiel in season 5 was just as likely to listen to Sam - especially on the issue of Dean saying "yes" to Michael. Joshua saved them in "Dark Side..." but I wouldn't necessarily say that Dean had much influence with him.

I admit, however, that I could be forgetting something.

10 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

It was Sera who came up with the idea of Sam being souless. 

That could have happened any number of ways, though.

[ILoveReading]

3 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

He wasn't so good at getting Michael to listen to him previously in "The Song Remains the Same" except to bring Sam back... which wasn't that much of a concession really. Uriel didn't listen to him at all. I would say that Castiel did eventually, yes, but I can't think of too many others during the Kripke era. And Castiel in season 5 was just as likely to listen to Sam - especially on the issue of Dean saying "yes" to Michael. Joshua saved them in "Dark Side..." but I wouldn't necessarily say that Dean had much influence with him.

I admit, however, that I could be forgetting something.

That could have happened any number of ways, though.

That was only one meeting.  If Dean had said yes to Michael he'd have 24/7 to work on him.  I think he's stronger than the show gives him credit for or he could have found an out of the box solution to take out Michael like he did with Eve and Zacheriah.  That's Deans' strenght.  He evenually convinced Cas and Gabriel.  So did have success. 

  When Kripke first talked about the 100th ep he said it was supposed to explore Dean's relationship with Michael, so something drastically changed.  IMO, that was Sera's influence since she was taking over and Kripke, IMO, had basically checked out at that point.   If he couldn't' then striking Lucifer while he was so weak would have been a whole lot less collateral damaged then a fully charged Lucifer taking on Michael if Sam couldn't get control.

There was also the fact that Sam couldn't do what he was doing on lesser opponents.  He couldn't over come a simple ghost possession or what was the equivalent of stunt demon number 3 compared to Lucifer.  

So Sam's success rate was even worse then Dean's with what he was proposing.   Sam's plan only worked because Dean is sentimental.

Why is Dean wrong for wanting to say yes but Sam was praised when Sam had a zero success rate.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Which, in my opinion, is kind of the point. At the time Dean came up with his plan - which he did unilaterally without discussing it with Sam, Castiel, or Bobby - they were still trying to figure out how to save everybody and things weren't that desperate yet really. Things still seemed to be small scale, and we even saw examples of people potentially fighting back in "99 Problems"... and maybe that hit a bit too close to what Dean saw in "The End" for Dean, which is understandable, but Bobby, Sam, and Castiel didn't know about what happened in "The End." As far as we know, Dean didn't share. So what Sam, Cas, and Bobby saw was Dean not giving up on just Sam.... but on them also. The prophecy didn't just predict that half the people might be killed in the battle, but that things would be changed afterwards. As far as they knew, earth as they knew it would no longer exist.

 

My point is that Sam, Bobby and Castiel, decided Dean was trying to kill himself. That's what Sam said, and he got Castiel to kidnap him and lock him down, without any evidence that Dean was a danger to himself or anyone else. Michael was not going to run around in Dean's meatsuit trying to take over Earth. That wasn't his plan. His only goal was to kill Lucifer and whilst he wasn't that concerned about humanity in the crossfire, his goal was not the destruction and subjugation of humanity. That was Lucifer's goal.  It's entirely possible that Dean may have ended up being wrong about Sam but that doesn't make him a danger because he already knew a there was a potential deadly outcome if he stood by and did nothing. Dean's actions were intended to save the world from Lucifer.

 

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

No, not just Sam, but Castiel and Bobby as well. Also Dean was doing the usually not Dean-like, Machiavellian thing - see also below - which this show tends not to show as the right thing to do no matter which brother is doing it. In my opinion, Kripke would have been disingenuous to show it as the right thing to do here, when it was shown as the wrong thing to do when Sam did it. I personally appreciated that he kept that point of view consistent.

But the show doesn't care if Dean goes against Bobby and Castiel. It only cares if Dean goes against Sam. That's the thing in this show. The worst sin Dean can ever have done is not listen to Sam in s5.

As to consistency, IMO, the show framing the act of saying Yes to a vessel when the end result would be death or eternal suffering should be treated the same in the show, either it's suicide or it's sacrifice, not suicide for one character and sacrifice for the other when their motivations were basically the same; to keep Lucifer from destroying the planet.  They didn't need to make it out that Dean was suicidal for that choice when it was the smartest choice they had AT the time Dean made the decision which was before Sam came up with his plan.

Edited January 5, 2018 by catrox14

[FlickChick]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 

My point is that Sam, Bobby and Castiel, decided Dean was trying to kill himself. That's what Sam said, and he got Castiel to kidnap him and lock him down, without any evidence that Dean was a danger to himself or anyone else. Michael was not going to run around in Dean's meatsuit trying to take over Earth. That wasn't his plan. His only goal was to kill Lucifer and whilst he wasn't that concerned about humanity in the crossfire, his goal was not the destruction and subjugation of humanity. That was Lucifer's goal.  It's entirely possible that Dean may have ended up being wrong about Sam but that doesn't make him a danger because he already knew a there was a potential deadly outcome if he stood by and did nothing. Dean's actions were intended to save the world from Lucifer.

The fact that Sam came up with the plan after PoNR doesn't negate that they were making IMO wrong assumptions about Dean's motivations. The show framing the act of saying Yes to a vessel when the end result would be death or eternal suffering should be treated the same in the show, either it's suicide or it's sacrifice, not suicide for one character and sacrifice for the other when their motivations were basically the same, to keep Lucifer from destroying the planet. They didn't need to make it out that Dean was suicidal for that choice when it was the smartest choice they had AT the time Dean made the decision which was before Sam came up with his plan.

Absolutely! What's good for the goose is good for the gander. But unfortunately, not in Supernatural. :(

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

What did Sera have to do with it? It was Kripke's episode and finale, and as far as I know, he wrote it the way he wanted it to be written.

Sera was heavily involved in setting up for s6 since she was going to be the showrunner. She wanted a topside domestic!Dean and a Soulless!Sam.  Kripke had wanted a battle between Good!Dean and Evil!Sam. I've posted the links elsewhere in the forum of an interview wherein he talks about that being something he wanted to do but that changed.

Edited January 5, 2018 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

If he couldn't' then striking Lucifer while he was so weak would have been a whole lot less collateral damaged then a fully charged Lucifer taking on Michael if Sam couldn't get control.

This is making the assumption that the fallout of Michael vs Lucifer was the only concern, but that isn't what we were lead to believe by the previous information. The problem wasn't the fact that there would be fallout from the fight, the problem was the fight. In Dean's plan, the goal was that the fight would happen and Lucifer would be defeated while he was in a lesser meatsuit, and this, based on all of the information we/they had, was what Zachariah and the other angels wanted. And that goal was to fulfill the prophecy - which was to "end" the apocalypse and fulfill the prophecy which would mean a change of life on earth as they knew it. That was the prophecy and why the angels were doing what they were doing. There was literally no other reason for the higher-up angels to raise Lucifer.

If the result the angels wanted was status quo, then I would entirely agree that Dean's plan was the better idea. But that wasn't the case. Something was going to happen by Michael killing Lucifer, and that something would not be humanity in control of earth. I'm pretty sure that an angel somewhere said that they - the angels - would take over. And based on what we had seen of many of the angels, I wouldn't expect rainbows and puppies necessarily - or at least not free will. Castiel even touched on that: that it was a choice of free will or peace.

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Why is Dean wrong for wanting to say yes but Sam was praised when Sam had a zero success rate.

Dean wasn't wrong because of wanting to say "yes," but because his plan to say "yes" would mean that the entire world would be changed and it would be the end of humanity as they knew it. In Sam's plan - longshot though it was - the goal was to save humanity. That is the difference... and in my opinion it was a huge one.

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Michael was not going to run around in Dean's meatsuit trying to take over Earth. That wasn't his plan. His only goal was to kill Lucifer and whilst he wasn't that concerned about humanity in the crossfire, his goal was not the destruction and subjugation of humanity.

No one knew that, in my opinion, or even what exactly Michael's goal was. Yes, Michael wanted to kill Lucifer, but WHY did he want to kill Lucifer? What was the end goal? Lucifer wasn't a threat at all until heaven (meaning mainly Michael, since he was in charge) manipulated things to make sure that Lucifer would be raised. There were demons involved, yes, but as Zachariah pointed out, the angels could have stopped the seals breaking if they had wanted to... they didn't. They wanted Lucifer raised, because the end goal was to kill Lucifer and reap whatever benefits would come from that, and I doubt that those benefits were status quo. Status quo was Lucifer in the cage. Michael was taking a huge risk by raising Lucifer, so there had to be some reason that he was doing so. The angels were supposed to benefit from fulfilling the prophecy, and whether that meant inheriting the earth or God coming back, that's what the angels wanted... And if God didn't come back as they wanted, what was the plan then? My guess is that whatever it was, it wouldn't be good for humanity.

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

As to consistency, IMO, the show framing the act of saying Yes to a vessel when the end result would be death or eternal suffering should be treated the same in the show, either it's suicide or it's sacrifice, not suicide for one character and sacrifice for the other when their motivations were basically the same; to keep Lucifer from destroying the planet.  They didn't need to make it out that Dean was suicidal for that choice when it was the smartest choice they had AT the time Dean made the decision which was before Sam came up with his plan.

I'm not sure where suicide came into it. Sam accused Dean of going to kill himself - which I suppose is technically suicide - but, in my opinion, that wouldn't necessarily exclude "sacrifice." The dialogue also had Dean deny that his goal was to kill himself, so to me, that's not pushing that Dean was "committing suicide." Now running away? Yup, in my opinion that is what the narrative was saying... because Dean was. But the narrative at the same time also made sure to take a swipe at Sam while making this point, so I'm really not seeing how Dean was entirely the "wrong" one in this. Not only that, Dean in the end listened and changed his mind, going back to the "we're going to try to save everybody" stance that the show generally supports, so again, I'm not seeing an overarching "Dean is wrong" message here, myself. Sam at the end of season 4? That, in my opinion, was the narrative painting a brother as wrong.

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

But the show doesn't care if Dean goes against Bobby and Castiel. It only cares if Dean goes against Sam. That's the thing in this show. The worst sin Dean can ever have done is not listen to Sam in s5.

I disagree. In my opinion, the show cares much more when Sam goes against Dean. Sam going against Dean in season 4 - even though as far as I know no one came up with any kind of plan at all to stop the seals from breaking or from stopping Lilith except Sam - was the greatest sin. That's why he got blamed for raising Lucifer and starting the apocalypse. Same with season 10. Again Sam going against Dean = starting an apocalypse. Dean going against Sam however, doesn't result in anything catastrophic - not in season 5 and not in season 9. In season 9, everything even got turned around on to Sam, and Gadreel ended up being just a misunderstood guy who helped save the world, and Sam would do the same as Dean, so Dean was shown to be right and Sam was the one in the wrong all along. Even Dean becoming a demon wasn't an issue until again Sam went against Dean and so Sam was wrong and the narrative blamed him.

So in my opinion, Dean going against Sam is not considered that bad a thing in this show - it's more the other way around.

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

 Kripke had wanted a battle between Good!Dean and Evil!Sam.

I'm really glad that didn't happen. Kripke already made Sam dark enough in season 4. I wouldn't have wanted to see evil Sam being stopped by Dean, and no redemption for Sam. No thank you.

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I'm not sure where suicide came into it. Sam accused Dean of going to kill himself - which I suppose is technically suicide - but, in my opinion, that wouldn't necessarily exclude "sacrifice." The dialogue also had Dean deny that his goal was to kill himself, so to me, that's not pushing that Dean was "committing suicide." Now running away? Yup, in my opinion that is what the narrative was saying... because Dean was. But the narrative at the same time also made sure to take a swipe at Sam while making this point, so I'm really not seeing how Dean was entirely the "wrong" one in this. Not only that, Dean in the end listened and changed his mind, going back to the "we're going to try to save everybody" stance that the show generally supports, so again, I'm not seeing an overarching "Dean is wrong" message here, myself. Sam at the end of season 4? That, in my opinion, was the narrative painting a brother as wrong.

It came into the original conversation in the Dean thread :)

I think it was pretty clear when they handcuffed Dean to the bed he was being treated as though he was mentally unstable. And they had Dean say he would have let Sam rot, which was BS. As to s4, Sam was wrong. 100% so yes the narrative should have painted him in that light. He was wrong and he was lying and doing sketchy things with Ruby. So for me I don't find those equivalent situations. Dean hadn't done anything but think Sam was going to cave in to Lucifer and he was going to do what he could to beat Lucifer.  Just because Dean broke from his typical notions because he was IMO rightfully worried that Sam would say yes to Lucifer, that doesn't mean he no longer cared about saving humanity. He was trying to save at least half of the planet. JMHO on that. YMMV

I have no recollection that Michael had any designs on destroying humanity. If there is some subtext or something else that points to Michael in s5 wanting to destroy humanity intentionally, I don't remember it. He was guilty of indifference born of his need to do what God wanted which was to kill Lucifer. I have no reason to think he was lying when he said he would leave the rest of humanity alone after killing Lucifer. The only one that talked about overtaking Earth was Lucifer but to kill and subjagate humanity and Zachariah wanted Paradise on Earth. AFAIR, Michael never said he wanted those things and he didn't come down to earth until Dean said yes.

[ILoveReading]

23 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Dean wasn't wrong because of wanting to say "yes," but because his plan to say "yes" would mean that the entire world would be changed and it would be the end of humanity as they knew it. In Sam's plan - longshot though it was - the goal was to save humanity. That is the difference... and in my opinion it was a huge one.

We'll have to agree to disagree.  Because I don't see the Dean I watched for five seasons just sitting back and letting the world burn.  Dean's a fighter and I believe he would have fought Michael.  Despite what the narrative tried to say.

Why didn't anyone suggest to Dean that if he was going to say yes, he should fight and try to gain control.  Why just act like he's giving up.  If  Sam, Bobby and had his back there is no reason Dean couldn't have overcome Michael.   The plan would have been the same.  There was no reason it has to be Sam saying yes to Lucifer.  As I said before, the boys history speaks to Dean having a higher chance of success.

Because if the show is going to tell us that Dean is weak for wanting to say yes, then it really needs to allow Sam's weaknesses to be bought up, which meant someone mention the plans fatal flaw.  Sam tried and failed twice.  The fate of humanity was at stake you dont' put the weakest pitcher in the bottom of the ninth.  Even Sam said he's the weakest..   But that was conveniently ignored for weak Dean/Strong Sam trope the show seems to be fond of. 

Logistics of the plan itself would say make more sense for Dean  because you don't want Lucifer to be stronger.  He was really weak and in danger of imploding.  So regardless of the fight, Lucifer couldn't have done that much damage in his current state.  So if there is a fight wouldn't this be the best way for it to happen?

If Sams plan failed you have a strong Lucifer and a weak Michael.  Much higher collateral damage.

Even if it had to be Sam why would he drink demon blood and make his vessel stronger for Lucifer?  Wouldn't it be easier for Sam to take control if Lucifer has to expend all his energy to keep his vessel from imploding.  That's why the sudden need to drink demon blood was pure white washing because not only did it come out of thin air but it made no sense in regards to the plan. 

If Dean's weaknesses and flaws of his plan were brought up then the same should have happened with Sam.  Sam idea, plan or not had an equal shot of ending humanity.

Dean had a plan to blow up the Darkness, yet he found another way that not only saved her, but himself and God and all the souls inside him.  So plans don't mean much of anything especially when they go sideways, which Sam's actually did.  Lucifer knew exactly what they were up too.

If Dean hadn't put that solider back in the impala the world would be gone.  So it was pure dumb luck in the end anyway.  What's to say Dean couldn't have had the same?

The fight had just as much chance as happening with Sam saying yes as it did Dean.

Nothing about it works for me.

[Res]

14 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

We'll have to agree to disagree.  Because I don't see the Dean I watched for five seasons just sitting back and letting the world burn.  Dean's a fighter and I believe he would have fought Michael.  Despite what the narrative tried to say.

Why didn't anyone suggest to Dean that if he was going to say yes, he should fight and try to gain control.  Why just act like he's giving up.  If  Sam, Bobby and had his back there is no reason Dean couldn't have overcome Michael.   The plan would have been the same.  There was no reason it has to be Sam saying yes to Lucifer.  As I said before, the boys history speaks to Dean having a higher chance of success.

Because if the show is going to tell us that Dean is weak for wanting to say yes, then it really needs to allow Sam's weaknesses to be bought up, which meant someone mention the plans fatal flaw.  Sam tried and failed twice.  The fate of humanity was at stake you dont' put the weakest pitcher in the bottom of the ninth.  Even Sam said he's the weakest..   But that was conveniently ignored for weak Dean/Strong Sam trope the show seems to be fond of. 

Logistics of the plan itself would say make more sense for Dean  because you don't want Lucifer to be stronger.  He was really weak and in danger of imploding.  So regardless of the fight, Lucifer couldn't have done that much damage in his current state.  So if there is a fight wouldn't this be the best way for it to happen?

If Sams plan failed you have a strong Lucifer and a weak Michael.  Much higher collateral damage.

Even if it had to be Sam why would he drink demon blood and make his vessel stronger for Lucifer?  Wouldn't it be easier for Sam to take control if Lucifer has to expend all his energy to keep his vessel from imploding.  That's why the sudden need to drink demon blood was pure white washing because not only did it come out of thin air but it made no sense in regards to the plan. 

If Dean's weaknesses and flaws of his plan were brought up then the same should have happened with Sam.  Sam idea, plan or not had an equal shot of ending humanity.

Dean had a plan to blow up the Darkness, yet he found another way that not only saved her, but himself and God and all the souls inside him.  So plans don't mean much of anything especially when they go sideways, which Sam's actually did.  Lucifer knew exactly what they were up too.

If Dean hadn't put that solider back in the impala the world would be gone.  So it was pure dumb luck in the end anyway.  What's to say Dean couldn't have had the same?

The fight had just as much chance as happening with Sam saying yes as it did Dean.

Nothing about it works for me.

This is why the final episode of S5 was so completely asinine IMO and why I hate it so much. Especially when the entire narration of the episode only briefly mentioned family but mainly focused on the Impala and a previously unknown little green soldier saved the day, not brotherly commitment from the only family Sam had left and whom Lucifer was pounding into oblivion. JMO, YMMV.

[catrox14]

28 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Even if it had to be Sam why would he drink demon blood and make his vessel stronger for Lucifer?  Wouldn't it be easier for Sam to take control if Lucifer has to expend all his energy to keep his vessel from imploding.  That's why the sudden need to drink demon blood was pure white washing because not only did it come out of thin air but it made no sense in regards to the plan. 

I never thought about it this. Hmmm. That's a really good point.

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, Res said:

This is why the final episode of S5 was so completely asinine IMO and why I hate it so much. Especially when the entire narration of the episode only briefly mentioned family but mainly focused on the Impala and a previously unknown little green soldier saved the day, not brotherly commitment from the only family Sam had left and whom Lucifer was pounding into oblivion. JMO, YMMV.

I really do wonder about that other writer on that script. I looked it up and he is a video game developer. That's so weird and random that he would pick this guy to co write his final script for the show. What a random thing. That writer had nothing to do with SPN until that episode. WTF?

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0315384/?ref_=ttfc_fc_wr3

Quote

Writer (4 credits)

 2010 Supernatural (TV Series) (story by - 1 episode)

- Swan Song (2010) ... (story by - as Eric Gewirtz)

 2002/I Inside (Short)

 2000 Star Trek: Armada (Video Game)

 1998 Dark Reign Expansion: Rise of the Shadowhand (Video Game)

Hide  Director (3 credits)

 2009 The Lord of the Rings: Conquest (Video Game)

 2005 Star Wars: Battlefront II (Video Game)

 2004 Star Wars: Battlefront (Video Game)

Hide  Art department (1 credit)

 2002 Star Wars: The Clone Wars (Video Game) (lead designer)

Hide  Miscellaneous Crew (1 credit)

 1998 Dark Reign Expansion: Rise of the Shadowhand (Video Game) (game designe

[Res]

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I really do wonder about that other writer on that script. I looked it up and he is a video game developer. That's so weird and random that he would pick this guy to co write his final script for the show. What a random thing. That writer had nothing to do with SPN until that episode. WTF?

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0315384/?ref_=ttfc_fc_wr3

Well, at that point, Kripke had really moved on so IMHO I believe Sera had a lot, and I mean A LOT, more to do with that script than is credited.

[AwesomO4000]

14 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I have no reason to think he was lying when he said he would leave the rest of humanity alone after killing Lucifer. The only one that talked about overtaking Earth was Lucifer but to kill and subjagate humanity and Zachariah wanted Paradise on Earth. AFAIR, Michael never said he wanted those things and he didn't come down to earth until Dean said yes.

I honestly don't remembering Michael saying that, so if he did, I could be wrong about Michael's motivations. But even though Michael didn't come down to earth proper, he did come down to kill Anna in "The Song Remains the Same," and he was keeping tabs on and giving orders to Zachariah, including the plan to raise Adam to be an alternate vessel and/or be "bait." I always considered Zachariah to be a company guy, so I didn't imagine him doing anything without the go ahead from Michael.

7 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Dean's a fighter and I believe he would have fought Michael. 

And why would Dean be expected to win any more than Sam? Dean hadn't even had any experience being possessed before, so he couldn't know.

I have no doubt that Dean would have fought. I just can't imagine a situation where Michael would've let Dean have a chance. One of the only reasons that Sam even had a chance was that Lucifer let him come to the surface. It was one of Lucifer's flaws that he wanted people to like him and sympathize with him. Lucifer was a twisted jerk... he wanted Sam to want to be possessed, so to that end, he let Sam "out." And then later he wanted Sam to experience Dean's bones breaking. I honestly can't imagine that Michael would do that. I'm not saying that I'm right about that, but that's the impression that I got - he certainly shut Adam out ("Adam's not here right now.")

21 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

If Dean's weaknesses and flaws of his plan were brought up then the same should have happened with Sam.  Sam idea, plan or not had an equal shot of ending humanity.

I don't remember Dean's "weaknesses" being brought up except for the fact that Dean's plan was Machiavellian. As Bobby complained, Dean's plan wouldn't save everybody.  Sam's plan only had an equal shot at ending humanity if it didn't work. Unless what @catrox14 said above is true, and Michael promised not to hurt the rest of humanity - something likely only Dean knew and didn't share - then in my opinion, Dean's plan had an almost 100% chance of changing humanity. There was no cage plan at that time. Michael's plan was kill Lucifer and whatever the consequences were would happen. That's the only reality that Sam, Castiel, and Bobby knew, and that's why they were angry. They didn't understand Dean's mindset at the outset - that he (Dean) felt that it was all on him to stop this - because Dean hadn't shared that mindset with any of them. So how could Sam, Bobby, and Castiel even know why Dean was doing anything? How could they know that they could trust Michael to do the right thing?

33 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Even if it had to be Sam why would he drink demon blood and make his vessel stronger for Lucifer?  Wouldn't it be easier for Sam to take control if Lucifer has to expend all his energy to keep his vessel from imploding.  That's why the sudden need to drink demon blood was pure white washing because not only did it come out of thin air but it made no sense in regards to the plan. 

For me, the blood-drinking was a plot tactic so that Sam would say "yes" even though Lucifer knew about the cage plan. It made Sam reckless and arrogant.

As for the vessel imploding - would that kill Lucifer? Because if so, once again there is the problem of the prophecy maybe coming true. Castiel seemed to be sure that Sam would implode... and if Sam hadn't drunk the blood, once Lucifer was in Sam, if Sam didn't implode, Lucifer could just overpower Sam and drink demon blood... he had demons right there. Sam only was able to kill them because he'd drunk the demon blood. Or Lucifer could insist Sam drink the blood before he would possess him.

40 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

If  Sam, Bobby and had his back there is no reason Dean couldn't have overcome Michael. 

To what end? There was no cage at that point, so what would Dean have been doing after overcoming Michael?

And speaking of Michael... I further question his motives, because what the hell was he doing while Sam was coming up with his plan in the first place, and Sam, Castiel, and Dean were actually trying to save the world from the horsemen. Michael had a vessel in Adam. Why didn't he just go kill Lucifer in a weakened Nick then? If Michael wasn't going to consider taking Dean again as a vessel, why the hell did he just sit around and wait until Sam said yes... I mean he didn't even interfere to help Gabriel, or react to Gabriel's death by confronting Lucifer. As I said earlier: what a dick!

These are the kind of things that made me question Michael's motives. Because if he wanted to, he could've fought Lucifer almost as soon as he took Adam as a vessel and got him strong. So what was the point of waiting?

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, Res said:

Well, at that point, Kripke had really moved on so IMHO I believe Sera had a lot, and I mean A LOT, more to do with that script than is credited.

Do you think maybe Sera really wrote the finale for the most part, Eric wrote the Chuck bit and the other Eric had minimal invovlement but they didn't want to put Sera's name on it? That would be weird.

[AwesomO4000]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Do you think maybe Sera really wrote the finale for the most part, Eric wrote the Chuck bit and the other Eric had minimal invovlement but they didn't want to put Sera's name on it? That would be weird.

I agree. Why not just put Sera's name on it then? She was going to be showrunner, so it would make sense that if part of it was hers, that she would just be included as a writer.

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I honestly don't remembering Michael saying that, so if he did, I could be wrong about Michael's motivations. But even though Michael didn't come down to earth proper, he did come down to kill Anna in "The Song Remains the Same," and he was keeping tabs on and giving orders to Zachariah, including the plan to raise Adam to be an alternate vessel and/or be "bait." I always considered Zachariah to be a company guy, so I didn't imagine him doing anything without the go ahead from Michael.

 I remember him saying he wouldn't leave Dean a drooling mess and I also had the impression he wasn't going to take out the rest of humanity for the hell of it.

I'm still tring to figure out where it came from that this was all Michael's plan to bring Paradise on Earth. I just remember him taking about killing Lucifer and that's it. Nothing about a prophecy from Michael. I thought that was all Zachariah's shenanigans and Michael was disinterested in paradise on Earth.

2 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I agree. Why not just put Sera's name on it then? She was going to be showrunner, so it would make sense that if part of it was hers, that she would just be included as a writer.

Maybe it was a contractual thing. I know in writing rooms the head writer will often write things that are not credited to them.

[AwesomO4000]

24 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm still tring to figure out where it came from that this was all Michael's plan to bring Paradise on Earth. I just remember him taking about killing Lucifer and that's it. Nothing about a prophecy from Michael. I thought that was all Zachariah's shenanigans and Michael was disinterested in paradise on Earth.

It's true that it was Zachariah's plan, but Michael's explanation actually sounded just as ominous to me. He not only said that he had to kill Lucifer because it was what God wanted, he implied that this is the way it was always meant to "end."

Quote

Michael: But I am going to kill him because it is right and I have to.
Dean: Oh, because God says so?
Michael: Yes. From the beginning, He knew this was how it was going to end.

Michael then goes on to tell Dean that God knows best, Dean's opinions are unimportant, that free will is a lie, everything is predestined, that he (Michael) is okay with that, and that Dean can't fight City Hall. To me, even though I admit that it is fairly vague, none of that sounds more likely to be good or that humanity will come out unscathed. But I admit that that was just my interpretation of what Michael was implying... but then again, I always thought Michael was a dick, so I could be influenced by that opinion.

As for the prophecy, that was brought up by Castiel - the one about the "righteous man." But I'm pretty sure that prophecy is referred to a time or two again, and everything that appeared to be happening with the four Horsemen and previously with the seals breaking tied in to Revelation... which would tend towards the "end times." That coupled with what Zach was saying and Michael's remarks above lead me to the conclusion that this was not going to be good if Lucifer was killed as Michael wanted... and not just because of the potential death from the fight, but because of what the "prophecy" would mean afterwards.

Edited January 6, 2018 by AwesomO4000

[Res]

30 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Do you think maybe Sera really wrote the finale for the most part, Eric wrote the Chuck bit and the other Eric had minimal invovlement but they didn't want to put Sera's name on it? That would be weird.

Yeah, I really do in a way but maybe more that she gave him the idea of how she wanted the ending to go as far as Sam and Dean since he had to adjust it for the renewal. Not that she actually penned it so much which is why it wasn't credited. I do see Kripke in the Chuck bit. Plus, Sera's idea of Sam Sole Hero matched Eric's original idea of Reluctant Hero Sam so I can see them both argeeing on the main ending and neither really caring how they get there.

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Michael: Yes. From the beginning, He knew this was how it was going to end.

See, I took that to mean that killing Lucifer was always in the plan. Not the end of the world or the end of humanity. To me, since Michael always did was God commanded which was killing Lucifer and bowing down to humanity, I can't see him destroying humanity for the hell of it. That would go against God's decree for the angels to love humanity. That was the whole point of Michael casting Lucifer into Hell, because he defied God about humanity.

Edited January 6, 2018 by catrox14

[Wayward Son]

On 1/5/2018 at 6:42 PM, ILoveReading said:

I really don't just see Dean sitting back and letting Michael destroy the world, without trying to talk some sense into Michael or at least trying to fight back in some way.

Not to mention Lucifer and Michael ended up basically being whiny brats who just wanted Daddy to love them.  I had a hard time believing a fight between those two was going to destroy half that cemetary let alone the world.

 

Under normal circumstances perhaps not, but Season 5 presented Dean as spiraling into depression. It began as early as the end of Abandon All Hope when we saw the utter look of devastation on his face after the death's of Jo and Ellen, it was explicitly referenced by Famine in My Bloody Valentine when he refers to Dean as dead inside, and it continued in Dark Side of the Moon when the divergences in their heavenly memories caused him to lose faith in the bond he shared with Sam. The Dean of these episodes was portrayed as a suffer of depression who had become completely consumed by that nihilistic viewpoint.

 

As for your second point, I'm really not trying to be rude, but it doesn't matter what you (or I for that matter) believe. Team Free Will (Sam, Dean, Bobby and Castiel) believed they had the power to destroy half the world and acted as a result of that belief. IMO to say that they were wrong completely undermines what they went through in season 5 and devalues the sacrifice of Jo and Ellen. If they hadn't the power to cause destruction and change on a long scale then Sam and Dean may as well have said yes during Sympathy for the Devil and got it over and done with rather than indulging in needless refusals to say no until they had a better plan. 

 

Quote

I don't' understand why Sam saying yes was supported but Dean wanting to say yes was a weakness.  When Sam's plan had just as deadly consequences as Dean's.   I could easily have been Dean saying yes to Michael as part of a lager plan to lure Lucifer into the pit, or why no one suggested this to Dean.    It didn't have to be Sam with Lucifer.

Oh yes it could have been a part of some larger plan, but Dean himself never gave any indication of such. Personally, I don't believe the show ever gave the slightest hint such a plan exists, and since it seems to be only Dean centric fans who believe in one; it comes across as a desperate denial he may have felt overwhelmed by events and temporarily gave up. However, putting my personal doubts aside, let us assume you're right and such a plan existed then the onus lay with Dean to reveal such a plan existed and not Sam, Castiel or Bobby. However, Dean does nothing of the sort. Instead when he is first confronted by Sam it went as follows. 

 

Quote

SAM
No? So Michael’s not about to make you his Muppet? What the hell, man? This is how it ends? You just…walk out? 

DEAN
Yeah, I guess. 
 

(some dialogue with Dean calling Sam out for the times he ran away and Sam acknowledge he is wrong)

 

SAM
Just…please. Not now. Bobby is working on something. 

DEAN
Oh, really? What? 

SAM doesn’t answer. 

DEAN
You got nothing and you know it. 
 

BiB 1: If Dean had a master plan then was the time to contradict Sam's assumption and explain. Something along the lines of "No, of course not, (insert some information about the plan here)". Agreeing with Sam's (supposedly wrong) assumption isn't a good way of getting the others to understand the wisdom behind his actions. 

 

Bib 2: When he tells Sam he has nothing why didn't he explain he had something? Something along the lines of "You got nothing and you know it... Me allowing Michael to possess me and work on changing his mind is the best shot we've got". 

 

Then there is the confrontation at Bobby's place in the next scene.

 

Quote

DEAN
Yeah, no, this is good. Really. You know, eight months of turned pages and screwed pooches but tonight, tonight’s when the magic happens. 

BOBBY
You ain’t helpin’. 

DEAN
Yeah, well, why don’t you let me get out of your hair, then? 

BOBBY
What the hell happened to you? 

DEAN
Reality happened. Nuclear’s the only option we have left. Michael can ice the devil, save a boatload of people. 

BOBBY
But not all of them. We gotta think of something else. 

DEAN
Yeah, well, that’s easy for you to say. But if Lucifer burns this mother down, and I coulda done something about it, guess what? That’s on me. 

BOBBY
You can’t give up, son. 

DEAN
You’re not my father. And you ain’t in my shoes. 
 

 

BIB 1: Why exactly should Sam and Bobby be expected to behave all "Go Dean go" when he feels making mocking jabs is the best way to go about things? I certainly wouldn't be inclined to listen to someone who was behaving like that. And if we are talking about why the others were more agreeable to Sam's plan can you give me a similar instance of Sam mocking the others concerns?

 

BIB 2: Dean's on screen, textual, reference to his plan was essentially following the plan outlined by Zachariah at the beginning of the season, a plan Team Free Will had just spent the last year fighting their hardest against, Dean would say yes to Michael, Michael would kill (or in Dean's words ice) Lucifer and save some of humanity from the destruction caused by the battle. There is absolutely no reference to some other plan such as persuading Michael not to go through with the apocalypse and use his powers in a different way. So if Dean had such a plan that might have been a good time to say so. 

Quote

DEAN
We might as well have. I’m tired, man. I’m tired of fighting who I'm supposed to be. 

SAM
Well, do you think maybe you could take a half a second and stop trying to sacrifice yourself for a change? Maybe we could actually stick together? 

DEAN
I don’t think so. 

SAM
Why not? Dean, seriously. Tell me. I—I want to know. 

DEAN
I just…I—I don’t believe. 

SAM
In what? 

DEAN
In you. I mean, I don’t. I don’t know whether it’s gonna be demon blood or some other demon chick or what, but…I do know they're gonna find a way to turn you. 

SAM
So you’re saying I’m not strong enough. 

DEAN
You’re angry, you’re self-righteous. Lucifer's gonna wear you to the prom, man. It's just a matter of time. 
 

SAM
Don't say that to me. Not you...of all people. 

DEAN
I don’t want to. But it’s the truth. And when Satan takes you over, there's got to be somebody there to fight him, and it ain't gonna be that kid. So, it's got to be me. 
 

 

BiB 1: Again, Dean's wording very much supports the assumption he has given up. He is motivated by tiredness of who he is supposed to be. 

 

BiB 2: He explicitly states he is doing this because he doesn't believe in Sam's ability to say no not because there was a greater purpose to his actions. Personally, I find it unfair for any fan to expect Sam to meekly answer with "Yeah, Dean your right! I'm weak and I'm totally going to say yes to Lucifer. So let's just go and say our yeses now and get this over and done with". 

 

So I'm sorry, but if Dean had some bigger plan and hadn't simply decided saving half a planet was better than no planet in contrast to the others desire to save everyone then Dean sure as hell went completely wrong about revealing his plan and getting the others on side. 

 

Let's contrast Dean's attitude here with Sam's when he makes the decision to say yes to Lucifer. 

 

Quote

SAM Uh...Remember that time you were possessed?

BOBBY Yeah. Rings a bell.

SAM When Meg told you to kill Dean, you didn't. You took your body back.

BOBBY Just long enough to shank myself, yeah.

SAM Well, how'd you do it? I mean, how'd you take back the wheel?

BOBBY Why are you asking, Sam?

SAM (takes a swig from his bottle) Say we can open the cage. Great. But then what? W-we just lead the devil to the edge and get him to jump in?

BOBBY You got me.

SAM What if you guys lead the devil to the edge and I jump in?

BOBBY Sam.

SAM It'd be just like when you turned the knife around on yourself. One action -- just one leap.

BOBBY Are you idjits trying to kill me?!

SAM Bobby --

BOBBY We just got done talking your brother off the ledge, and now you're lining up to say "yes"?

SAM It's not like that. I'm not gonna do it. Not unless we all agree. But I think we got to look at our options.

BOBBY This isn't an option, Sam.

SAM Why not?

BOBBY You can't do it. What I did was a million-to-one, and that was some pissant demon I was brain-wrestling. You're talking about taking back control from Satan himself.

SAM Yeah.Yeah, I am.

BOBBY Kid...It's called "possession" for a reason. You, of all people, ought to know.

SAM I'm strong enough.

BOBBY You ain't. He's gonna find every chink in your armor, Sam, and use it against you --Your fear, your grief, your anger. And let's face it -- You're not exactly Mr. Anger management. How are you gonna control the devil when you can't control yourself?

 

Sam's attitude here is completely different to Dean's. Firstly, he immediately identifies his reasoning for wanting to jump into the cage. Unlike Dean he makes it clear this is about saving far more people than following the Angel's plans would have. Secondly, unlike Dean with his wise ass remarks such as "tonight's the night the magic happens" Sam actually respects Bobby's obvious initial rejection of the plan and promises this is only something he will do if he has the agreement of the group. From Bobby's perspective Sam is behaving in a far calmer and respectful manner than Dean. It should be noted that even with these differences there is a lot of initial rejection to Sam's initial plan. They didn't all immediately jump to agree, but ultimately figured it was their best bet. Honestly, you make it sound as though everyone rejected Dean and immediately jumped to agree with Sam, but they didn't. There was a lot of doubt and discussion before they came to the conclusion it was the best plan they had. IMO if Sam had taken a similar approach to Dean and announced "Guys, I'm saying yes to Lucifer. We can't beat him and I'm tired of fighting against my purpose. You can't change my mind" the others would have been just as unreceptive to the plan as they were to Dean's. 

 

On 1/5/2018 at 7:55 PM, catrox14 said:

I don't see it that way at all.  Dean saw an alternate future in which him not saying Yes to Michael lead to the destruction of the entire planet.  Michael!Dean fighting Lucifer!Sam  would have been only half the planet destroyed instead of the whole planet. Yes that was a Zachariah thing but there is no way to know if it was factually the future or a lie. Dean took the lesson that they had to keep each other human. That doesn't mean he wasn't right in thinking that saying yes to Michael is better than not doing anything at all. Plot contrivance at Dean's expense to get Sam into the cage alone.  (Have I said how much I hate the last quarter of s5 other than Dean meeting Death?) .

Dean believed that he needed to be ready to take on Lucifer!Sam. There is no real difference between either of them saying yes to their vessels when it came down to it. It was essentially a death mission. So why was Dean's the only being classified as "killing himself"? Because Dean was drinking and packing up his stuff over sad music?

Dean wasn't giving up on humanity. He was giving up on Sam which I guess is the greatest sin of all according to s5.

Why was everyone else so convinced that Dean was trying to kill himself and wrong when none of them had any other better plan at that point?  IIRC, the idea of Sam doing the swan dive with Lucifer wasn't suggested until after the events of PoNR.

 

That to me is the essential difference. As I outlined above in my response to @ILoveReading when Dean wanted to say yes it was in order to follow the plan of the angels and his viewpoint was largely influenced by his belief that Sam was going to succumb to Lucifer. Since the others didn't see Sam's yes as inevitable as Dean did they opposed the plan. On the other hand, by the time Sam had begun to consider saying yes their circumstances had changed. Sam was now in the position to come up with a game plan that would ultimately thwart not only Lucifer, but also the angels plans for humanity namely taking momentary control and jumping into the cage. I will concede that it was plot convenience that Dean never suggested saying yes to Michael in addition to Sam saying yes, but I see it as in character for the others to not suggest it. IMO it is one thing for a member of team free will to willingly offer to make the sacrifice (as Sam did here) or agree to the suggestion made by a third party (such as Rowena suggesting Dean would sacrifice himself and be the bomb used to destroy Amara) and the others to accept it, and quite another for another member of team free will to suggest someone else sacrifice himself. I'm sorry but I really couldn't see any of Sam, Bobby or Castiel comment along the lines of "Sorry, but I/Sam isn't strong enough for this! Dean, you should be the one to jump into the cage instead". I'm sorry but I just can't see any of them (including Dean if positions were reversed) behaving like that. I can see them accepting the sacrifice of another, but being the one to suggest they sacrifice themselves? Nope.

Edited January 7, 2018 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

 

Under normal circumstances perhaps not, but Season 5 presented Dean as spiraling into depression. It began as early as the end of Abandon All Hope when we saw the utter look of devastation on his face after the death's of Jo and Ellen, it was explicitly referenced by Famine in My Bloody Valentine when he refers to Dean as dead inside, and it continued in Dark Side of the Moon when the divergences in their heavenly memories caused him to lose faith in the bond he shared with Sam. The Dean of these episodes was portrayed as a suffer of depression who had become completely consumed by that nihilistic viewpoint.

 

As for your second point, I'm really not trying to be rude, but it doesn't matter what you (or I for that matter) believe. Team Free Will (Sam, Dean, Bobby and Castiel) believed they had the power to destroy half the world and acted as a result of that belief. IMO to say that they were wrong completely undermines what they went through in season 5 and devalues the sacrifice of Jo and Ellen. If they hadn't the power to cause destruction and change on a long scale then Sam and Dean may as well have said yes during Sympathy for the Devil and got it over and done with rather than indulging in needless refusals to say no until they had a better plan. 

 

Oh yes it could have been a part of some larger plan, but Dean himself never gave any indication of such. Personally, I don't believe the show ever gave the slightest hint such a plan exists, and since it seems to be only Dean centric fans who believe in one; it comes across as a desperate denial he may have felt overwhelmed by events and temporarily gave up. However, putting my personal doubts aside, let us assume you're right and such a plan existed then the onus lay with Dean to reveal such a plan existed and not Sam, Castiel or Bobby. However, Dean does nothing of the sort. Instead when he is first confronted by Sam it went as follows. 

 

BiB 1: If Dean had a master plan then was the time to contradict Sam's assumption and explain. Something along the lines of "No, of course not, (insert some information about the plan here)". Agreeing with Sam's (supposedly wrong) assumption isn't a good way of getting the others to understand the wisdom behind his actions. 

 

Bib 2: When he tells Sam he has nothing why didn't he explain he had something? Something along the lines of "You got nothing and you know it... Me allowing Michael to possess me and work on changing his mind is the best shot we've got". 

 

Then there is the confrontation at Bobby's place in the next scene.

 

 

BIB 1: Why exactly should Sam and Bobby be expected to behave all "Go Dean go" when he feels making mocking jabs is the best way to go about things? I certainly wouldn't be inclined to listen to someone who was behaving like that. And if we are talking about why the others were more agreeable to Sam's plan can you give me a similar instance of Sam mocking the others concerns?

 

BIB 2: Dean's on screen, textual, reference to his plan was essentially following the plan outlined by Zachariah at the beginning of the season, a plan Team Free Will had just spent the last year fighting their hardest against, Dean would say yes to Michael, Michael would kill (or in Dean's words ice) Lucifer and save some of humanity from the destruction caused by the battle. There is absolutely no reference to some other plan such as persuading Michael not to go through with the apocalypse and use his powers in a different way. So if Dean had such a plan that might have been a good time to say so. 

 

BiB 1: Again, Dean's wording very much supports the assumption he has given up. He is motivated by tiredness of who he is supposed to be. 

 

BiB 2: He explicitly states he is doing this because he doesn't believe in Sam's ability to say no not because there was a greater purpose to his actions. Personally, I find it unfair for any fan to expect Sam to meekly answer with "Yeah, Dean your right! I'm weak and I'm totally going to say yes to Lucifer. So let's just go and say our yeses now and get this over and done with". 

 

So I'm sorry, but if Dean had some bigger plan and hadn't simply decided saving half a planet was better than no planet in contrast to the others desire to save everyone then Dean sure as hell went completely wrong about revealing his plan and getting the others on side. 

 

Let's contrast Dean's attitude here with Sam's when he makes the decision to say yes to Lucifer. 

 

Sam's attitude here is completely different to Dean's. Firstly, he immediately identifies his reasoning for wanting to jump into the cage. Unlike Dean he makes it clear this is about saving far more people than following the Angel's plans would have. Secondly, unlike Dean with his wise ass remarks such as "tonight's the night the magic happens" Sam actually respects Bobby's obvious initial rejection of the plan and promises this is only something he will do if he has the agreement of the group. From Bobby's perspective Sam is behaving in a far calmer and respectful manner than Dean. It should be noted that even with these differences there is a lot of initial rejection to Sam's initial plan. They didn't all immediately jump to agree, but ultimately figured it was their best bet. Honestly, you make it sound as though everyone rejected Dean and immediately jumped to agree with Sam, but they didn't. There was a lot of doubt and discussion before they came to the conclusion it was the best plan they had. IMO if Sam had taken a similar approach to Dean and announced "Guys, I'm saying yes to Lucifer. We can't beat him and I'm tired of fighting against my purpose. You can't change my mind" the others would have been just as unreceptive to the plan as they were to Dean's. 

 

 

That to me is the essential difference. As I outlined above in my response to @ILoveReading when Dean wanted to say yes it was in order to follow the plan of the angels and his viewpoint was largely influenced by his belief that Sam was going to succumb to Lucifer. Since the others didn't see Sam's yes as inevitable as Dean did they opposed the plan. On the other hand, by the time Sam had begun to consider saying yes their circumstances had changed. Sam was now in the position to come up with a game plan that would ultimately thwart not only Lucifer, but also the angels plans for humanity namely taking momentary control and jumping into the cage. I will concede that it was plot convenience that Dean never suggested saying yes to Michael in addition to Sam saying yes, but I see it as in character for the others to not suggest it. IMO it is one thing for a member of team free will to willingly offer to make the sacrifice (as Sam did here) or agree to the suggestion made by a third party (such as Rowena suggesting Dean would sacrifice himself and be the bomb used to destroy Amara) and the others to accept it, and quite another for another member of team free will to suggest someone else sacrifice himself. I'm sorry but I really couldn't see any of Sam, Bobby or Castiel comment along the lines of "Sorry, but I/Sam isn't strong enough for this! Dean, you should be the one to jump into the cage instead". I'm sorry but I just can't see any of them (including Dean if positions were reversed) behaving like that. I can see them accepting the sacrifice of another, but being the one to suggest they sacrifice themselves? Nope.

t wasn't an unrealistic concern on Dean's part that Sam would eventually say yes, considering that Sam did exactly what he was warned against doing in s4 so there was kind of precedence there. 

Re the bolded part, IMO to compare Sam's mindset or motives or mental state and say it's better or more acceptable than Dean's when literally they had NO OTHER PLAN when Dean made the decision, is IMO disingenuous of the writers and is a false equivalency from the jump. As you stated, Sam had the advantage of having different information after the circumstances changed.

That's literally where the story shifted  by painting Dean's motivations as cowardly and suicidal but Sam's were heroic and brave sacrifice via Bobby's speech about "WE HAVE TO SAVE EVERYONE". Since when was that a requirement. They have always understood and accepted they may not be able to save everyone.  And once Sam floated his plan, he didn't say "Hey, Dean, why don't you do the same with Michael and then both are off the table and together we save the world".

The writing required it be Sam alone for the set up of s6 and IMO that's why they started going down the path of making sure Dean's "sacrifice" was letting Sam jump in the pit. Also Dean was still willing to make the sacrifice on behalf of half the planet + his half brother who didn't deserve it really IMO.  It's like any reason Dean gave for being prepared to fight Samifer if required was only selfish, suicidal and/or insufficient based on the number of people being saved.

Yes I know there is the aspect of Dean's love really saved the day which was also tainted because that came about because Dean wasn't doing right by Sam in the first place because he thought he would say yes. I know a lot of Dean fans love that Dean never was allowed to say yes to Michael.  I get that and I respect that even if I'm not of that mindset. My problem is the WAY they went about it. They trashed the vessel SL of Dean's, they trashed his character by making it bad that he wanted to try to save half the planet, they made his motives wrong, and they made it that his lesson was stop being a bullying big mean brother and let your little brother just be a hero already, Bad Dean! Bad!

(Heh I guess Sam will forever win the who has the most saves game since apparently he saved the whole planet by possession and Dean was only going to save half the planet, the asshole).

ETA:  Although Dean did save the universe from implosion by talking Amara off the ledge. So I take that back. They are even on saving the planet alone now. That's fine.

Edited January 7, 2018 by catrox14

[catrox14]

59 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Oh yes it could have been a part of some larger plan, but Dean himself never gave any indication of such. Personally, I don't believe the show ever gave the slightest hint such a plan exists, and since it seems to be only Dean centric fans who believe in one; it comes across as a desperate denial he may have felt overwhelmed by events and temporarily gave up. However, putting my personal doubts aside, let us assume you're right and such a plan existed then the onus lay with Dean to reveal such a plan existed and not Sam, Castiel or Bobby. However, Dean does nothing of the sort. Instead when he is first confronted by Sam it went as follows.

I have zero problem with debating the issue but I don't see the point of suggesting Dean fans are desperate because there is a difference of opinion over the interpretation of events. And even if it was true that Dean fans are "desperate" that doesn't make their (our) arguments invalid. No one here has suggested that he was not depressed in s5. What I(and I think others) ARE saying is that Dean's decision was not suicidal because he wasn't doing it TO DIE for the sake of dying or because he gave up on life. He was giving up on Sam at that point. That's not the same as suicidal.

Dean had the knowledge from THE END. Do you really think that had nothing to do with Dean's choices? I feel pretty confident in saying that Dean was remembering those events. ean said, "Saving half the planet is better than not saving any of the planet" which is exactly what Future Dean said. Again, it's not actually an unreasonable choice given the givens that Dean was convinced that Sam would say yes.

The whole reason for Dean saying yes to Michael is that he believed he would be strong enough to beat Samifer so that he could save half the planet. That was his plan. It wasn't complicated.

That said, Dean changes his tactics at the drop of hat. So to me that isn't really an idea born of being a "desperate" Dean fan to think he'd try to talk Michael down but is really rather reasonable given Dean having done that with John when he was possessed by Azazel. And if Dean could get through to John to fight off Azazel, I think it's pretty reasonable to think Dean would, himself, attempt to convince Michael to take another stance and if he couldn't win that, then fight tooth and nail to make sure that he beats Samifer. That's not "desperate" thinking by Dean fans. That's understanding the character. 

Edited January 8, 2018 by catrox14

[ILoveReading]

From the Unpopular opinion thread

Quote

 I think both brothers have interacted with Jack equally, just differently.  I know this is the Unpopular Opinion thread, but on this particular issue

I'm not talking about interaction, I'm talking about impact on the story.  Dean's had none.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this because if Dean decided he was done and left at the end the premier nothing about this season would change.  Dean's had no impact on Jack or the outcome of any major story line. This is why I feel like he's shoehorned in.  The writers really don't seem to know what to do with him. 

Even in the bad place.  Dean forces Kaia into the car but its ultimately Jack that convinces her to help.  So they still end  up in the same place with our without Dean. 

Dean's only role this season has been to be sad, but even that was mostly about how Dean was grieving wrong and he was inconveniencing others and being mean to poor woobie Jack.  If its Dean's only storyline why wasn't his grief included in an episode about grief.  Not to mention Sam showed no empathy towards Dean until Dean gave in and went along with Sam about Jack.  Dean was there but he didn't impact the story line in any meaningful way. 

I know Billie said the Winchester are important but we've seen in the past that "The Winchesters" is Dabb speak for just Sam.

I'm not asking you to prove anything, I'm just curious as to what your seeing that I'm not with regards to Dean.  If he wasn't in this season what about the Jack storyline changes?

[MysteryGuest]

12 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I'm not asking you to prove anything, I'm just curious as to what your seeing that I'm not with regards to Dean.  If he wasn't in this season what about the Jack storyline changes?

We could remove Sam, too, and the story would also be the same.  The days of Sam and Dean being THE story are long gone.  Now the plot lines go on around them.  But compared to last year, both Sam and Dean have been an active part of each episode, and it's made this season much more enjoyable for me.  We aren't even halfway through the season, so we'll have to see how the rest of the episodes play out, but so far, this season is a vast improvement over last, IMO.

[ILoveReading]

3 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

We could remove Sam, too, and the story would also be the same.

Not really.  Because it was Sam that showed Jack kindness and empathy at the beginning.  Without Sam Jack would have been vulnerable to everyone else who could influence him.   We saw that with Asmodeus. 

That's why I mention you can make a case for Sam.  But Dean is just kind of drifting. 

It's once again Sam coming up with the majority of the plans, and cases.  Dean has needed to be saved in every episode so far. 

Edited January 8, 2018 by ILoveReading

[Reganne]

15 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

From the Unpopular opinion thread

I'm not talking about interaction, I'm talking about impact on the story.  Dean's had none.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this because if Dean decided he was done and left at the end the premier nothing about this season would change.  Dean's had no impact on Jack or the outcome of any major story line. This is why I feel like he's shoehorned in.  The writers really don't seem to know what to do with him. 

Even in the bad place.  Dean forces Kaia into the car but its ultimately Jack that convinces her to help.  So they still end  up in the same place with our without Dean. 

Dean's only role this season has been to be sad, but even that was mostly about how Dean was grieving wrong and he was inconveniencing others and being mean to poor woobie Jack.  If its Dean's only storyline why wasn't his grief included in an episode about grief.  Not to mention Sam showed no empathy towards Dean until Dean gave in and went along with Sam about Jack.  Dean was there but he didn't impact the story line in any meaningful way. 

I know Billie said the Winchester are important but we've seen in the past that "The Winchesters" is Dabb speak for just Sam.

I'm not asking you to prove anything, I'm just curious as to what your seeing that I'm not with regards to Dean.  If he wasn't in this season what about the Jack storyline changes?

Technically Castiel wouldn't have been woken up in the empty if it weren't for Dean telling Sam that that every time Dean looked at him, he saw those that they lost and how he thought Jack got Cas killed.  This caused Jack to call to Cad and wake him up.  It wouldn't have happened without Dean.

 

As for grief... at least Dean has been shown to grieve.  Sam just goes about his day as if nothing had happened with the exception of a couple lines in the grief episode.  Even with that, there was an episode dedicated to Dean's grief with Sam trying to cheer him up.  Nothing really at all dealing with Sam's grief or attempting to make things better for him.

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, Reganne said:

Technically Castiel wouldn't have been woken up in the empty if it weren't for Dean telling Sam that that every time Dean looked at him, he saw those that they lost and how he thought Jack got Cas killed.  This caused Jack to call to Cad and wake him up.  It wouldn't have happened without Dean.

Fair point, but since I consider Jack to be main storyline, I was mostly focused on that.  Dean doesn't really have a part in the Jack storyline.  

At least Sam's grief, what little there was treated sympathetically.  Dean got to call himself a dick and apologize for being sad.

[Reganne]

3 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Not really.  Because it was Sam that showed Jack kindness and empathy at the beginning.  Without Sam Jack would have been vulnerable to everyone else who could influence him.   We saw that with Asmodeus. 

That's why I mention you can make a case for Sam.  But Dean is just kind of drifting. 

It's once again Sam coming up with the majority of the plans, and cases.  Dean has needed to be saved in every episode so far. 

Not true.  Dean was more involved in the cowboy episode (where Sam left with Cas and Jack), the bad place (actually had an impact on the story with Kaia) and the patience episode (where Sam stayed back).  Oh and the one where he got Billie to release all the ghosts as well.  That was all Dean.  Sam didn't really do anything.  

[ILoveReading]

3 minutes ago, Reganne said:

Not true.  Dean was more involved in the cowboy episode (where Sam left with Cas and Jack), the bad place (actually had an impact on the story with Kaia) and the patience episode (where Sam stayed back).  Oh and the one where he got Billie to release all the ghosts as well.  That was all Dean.  Sam didn't really do anything.  

Sorry, I guess I'm not explaining myself properly.  I'm not talking about MOTW, I'm talking about the overall arc of the season, which I consider to be the Jack plot line, so I'm strictly talking about that when I say Dean has no place in the story. 

Because in both your examples, its Sam interacting with Jack.  Plus in the Patience ep, Dean needed to be saved and he got tossed under the bus by Jody.  Not exactly a great ep for Dean. 

I did like Dean's interactions with Billie but I'm not convinced they're actually going to lead anywhere. 

[Reganne]

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Fair point, but since I consider Jack to be main storyline, I was mostly focused on that.  Dean doesn't really have a part in the Jack storyline.  

At least Sam's grief, what little there was treated sympathetically.  Dean got to call himself a dick and apologize for being sad.

Then he got an entire episode to look at his grief and where Sam catered to him.   Where the audience got to see how much grief he was dealing with and how low he felt. Sam hasn't got anything to help him cope or deal because the narrative never focuses on his feelings or grief.  I would rather have a character showcase different feelings, acting abilities and range than just go around acting like everything is hunky dory after major loses and trauma.

 

And part of the Jack story has to do with Cas and his connection  to him.  The two of them would never have met without Dean's influence.  Not to mention there was that time that Jack was copying everything Dean did.. proving that Jack is taking notice of Dean and wanting his approval.  Also in the cowboy episode,  notice how he goes to wake up Dean before Sam.   Not to mention how happy and satisfied Jack looks when Dean tells him he's done a good job.  In some ways I think Dean's approval means more to Jack than Sam's because Dean was the one who was skeptical of him at first.  So I would say Dean is having a great impact on Jack.

[companionenvy]

37 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I'm not asking you to prove anything, I'm just curious as to what your seeing that I'm not with regards to Dean.  If he wasn't in this season what about the Jack storyline changes?

For me, that just isn't an important metric. We're in season 13. Over the years, Sam and Dean have both had plenty to do. I don't need them to be the key driver of every single plot point, as long as they are integrally involved. 

Sometimes, Sam and Dean are the primary movers of events. Sometimes, they're  largely reacting to events. Sometimes, their emotional "plot" takes priority over their role in the arc plot - and some arc plots are better defined than others.  They aren't as much of an exclusive focus as they once were, but they are still the guys who we're following in every episode and whose perspectives largely take priority. They're still going on hunts and dealing with crises.

We're also dealing with a season-long arc, of which Jack's storyline is only one part. If we expand beyond Jack to consider the AU as part of the series arc, Dean just did something pretty major in that he's the reason he, Sam and Jack are in their respective AU Worlds - Dean's the one who proposed the "escape angels by teleporting out" plan. But the truth is we don't actually know how integral any particular character is going to wind up being in the final reckoning. 

And for better or worse, Dean is also influencing Jack. His relationship with him didn't start out entirely positively, to say the least, but the fact that Dean is suspicious of Jack I'd say has as much as an effect on him as Sam encouraging him to work on his powers. It is part of what is driving Jack's desperate need to prove himself. You can like that or not, but it is an influence. And Reganne has a good point that Dean indirectly led to Jack waking Cas up in the Empty. 

So,  I don't actually even agree with the premise that Sam has had more influence over the arc plot than Dean. That's only even arguably true if we (IMO arbitrarily) limit the arc plot to "Jack" and exclude the "and the AU world" part. 

[Reganne]

8 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Sorry, I guess I'm not explaining myself properly.  I'm not talking about MOTW, I'm talking about the overall arc of the season, which I consider to be the Jack plot line, so I'm strictly talking about that when I say Dean has no place in the story. 

Because in both your examples, its Sam interacting with Jack.  Plus in the Patience ep, Dean needed to be saved and he got tossed under the bus by Jody.  Not exactly a great ep for Dean. 

I did like Dean's interactions with Billie but I'm not convinced they're actually going to lead anywhere. 

Dean was the one who actually killed the wraith.  Sure Patience gave him the heads up, but he was still the one who killed it.  That's like saying Sam didn't really kill the shifter in the grief episode bc Jack saved him.  

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, companionenvy said:

For me, that just isn't an important metric.

For me it is important.  

 

2 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

We're also dealing with a season-long arc, of which Jack's storyline is only one part.

IMO, Jack seems to be Dabb's primary focus, so as of right now I see him as the season long arc.  That could change, admittedly but right now everything if focused on Jack.  The AU is a totally separate entity that neither Sam nor Dean play a part in.

 

4 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

And for better or worse, Dean is also influencing Jack. His relationship with him didn't start out entirely positively, to say the least, but the fact that Dean is suspicious of Jack I'd say has as much as an effect on him as Sam encouraging him to work on his powers. It is part of what is driving Jack's desperate need to prove himself. You can like that or not, but it is an influence.

Maybe I could see this if the writers did a better job of presenting both sides of Jack, rather than woobie with a side of extremely light beige.  Despite all Dean's negatively, Jack is still just this precious ray of sunshine who just wants to help people.   So I'm not really seeing any influence from Dean on Jack.  He may want Dean's approval but he doesn't need it, hence why I feel that Dean's interactions with him didn't impact the storyline. 

[MysteryGuest]

29 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Dean doesn't really have a part in the Jack storyline.  

I have to disagree with this, as well.  I think Dean has had just as much impact on Jack as Sam has, if not more.  Jack very much wants to please Dean.  You can see it in his face every time Dean pays him the slightest compliment.  I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, but at least for me, as a Dean fan, I'm very happy with how things have gone so far this year.  I was afraid the focus would be Sam as the father figure for Jack, and that hasn't happened.  Both brothers are sharing that role, equally, even though their initial reactions to him were completely different.  

There are a lot of irons in the fire this season and lots of new and old characters to deal with, as well as multiple universes and a spin off.  All things considered, I'm thrilled with the amount of Jensen/Jared time we've had so far.  

[ILoveReading]

8 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I have to disagree with this, as well.  I think Dean has had just as much impact on Jack as Sam has, if not more.  Jack very much wants to please Dean.  You can see it in his face every time Dean pays him the slightest compliment.  I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, but at least for me, as a Dean fan, I'm very happy with how things have gone so far this year.  I was afraid the focus would be Sam as the father figure for Jack, and that hasn't happened.  Both brothers are sharing that role, equally, even though their initial reactions to him were completely different.  

There are a lot of irons in the fire this season and lots of new and old characters to deal with, as well as multiple universes and a spin off.  All things considered, I'm thrilled with the amount of Jensen/Jared time we've had so far.  

We'll have to agree to disagree because with or without Dean, IMO, Jack still ends up the exact same character he is now.

Maybe I'll feel differently once the season plays out as a whole but as of right now, Dean is the most expendable character,  He could be removed from the Jack story with no major rewrites needed. 

Edited January 8, 2018 by ILoveReading

[catrox14]

26 minutes ago, Reganne said:

Sam hasn't got anything to help him cope or deal because the narrative never focuses on his feelings or grief.  I would rather have a character showcase different feelings, acting abilities and range than just go around acting like everything is hunky dory after major loses and trauma.

I think the reason Sam isn't getting a heavy grief Arc is because he deals with things differently and he was not heavily grieving .

He didn't believe Mary was dead so he wasn't really grieving her death. He was upset that she went missing but he also had hope that she was alive and he was focused on saving her via Jack. As to him grieiving Cas that's a different thing because I think he also thought he could be saved . Once they burned his body he cried , eulogized him and accepted he was gone and in a better place. Sam was still focused on Mary. He had the outburst at the counselor because he did not accept that Mary was dead and was pissed that Dean had given up. I don't think anything was left out of Sam's grief. It just didn't destroy him like It did Dean. He surely want going to grieve Crowley and he did seem upset about Rowena. I think both Dean and Sam grief was interestingly apt for their situations and personalities.Jmho

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

We'll have to agree to disagree because with or without Dean, IMO, Jack still ends up the exact same character he is now.

Maybe I'll feel differently once the season plays out as a whole but as of right now, Dean is the most expendable character,  He could be removed from the Jack story with no major rewrites needed. 

I think Dean has played a role with Jack but I'm not that happy with how it's been handled. He has influenced Jack but I think it was more passive than direct other than shooting at him and telling him he would kill him if the went dark side. I think Jack seemed to want Dean's approval.

And I still don't know what the show is trying to tell me about Dean other than he was in profound and deep grief and was taking it out on everyone around him (according to the narrative, I don't think that was the case). It's weird. I'm not sure what to make of it just yet.

[AwesomO4000]

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

... 1) Re the bolded part, IMO to compare Sam's mindset or motives or mental state and say it's better or more acceptable than Dean's when literally they had NO OTHER PLAN when Dean made the decision, is IMO disingenuous of the writers and is a false equivalency from the jump. As you stated, Sam had the advantage of having different information after the circumstances changed.

2) That's literally where the story shifted  by painting Dean's motivations as cowardly and suicidal but Sam's were heroic and brave sacrifice via Bobby's speech about "WE HAVE TO SAVE EVERYONE". Since when was that a requirement. They have always understood and accepted they may not be able to save everyone.  And once Sam floated his plan, he didn't say "Hey, Dean, why don't you do the same with Michael and then both are off the table and together we save the world".

3) The writing required it be Sam alone for the set up of s6 and IMO that's why they started going down the path of making sure Dean's "sacrifice" was letting Sam jump in the pit. Also Dean was still willing to make the sacrifice on behalf of half the planet + his half brother who didn't deserve it really IMO.  It's like any reason Dean gave for being prepared to fight Samifer if required was only selfish, suicidal and/or insufficient based on the number of people being saved.

4) Yes I know there is the aspect of Dean's love really saved the day which was also tainted because that came about because Dean wasn't doing right by Sam in the first place because he thought he would say yes. I know a lot of Dean fans love that Dean never was allowed to say yes to Michael.  I get that and I respect that even if I'm not of that mindset. My problem is the WAY they went about it. They trashed the vessel SL of Dean's, they trashed his character by making it bad that he wanted to try to save half the planet, they made his motives wrong, and they made it that his lesson was stop being a bullying big mean brother and let your little brother just be a hero already, Bad Dean! Bad!

(Heh I guess Sam will forever win the who has the most saves game since apparently he saved the whole planet by possession and Dean was only going to save half the planet, the asshole).

ETA:  Although Dean did save the universe from implosion by talking Amara off the ledge. So I take that back. They are even on saving the planet alone now. That's fine. 5)

1) As I mentioned elsewhere, there being no other plan wasn't an excuse for Sam in season 4, and Sam thought that he, too, was doing something to save the world by sacrificing a few people - namely the nurse.  The writers never looked at Sam's unilateral decision to sacrifice a few to save the many as a good thing - and they proved as such by blaming Sam for the apocalypse. Why should Dean's unilateral decision to do something similar be looked upon any differently by the same writers? And why wouldn't Dean changing his mind and going back to trying to save everyone not be looked at as a good thing? IN my opinion there was no "false equivalency." They were staying rather consistent in their stance.

2) I'm going to respectfully disagree with you here. As I mentioned somewhere (either above or in another thread), saving everyone has often been supported by the show as the correct way to go... and by Dean himself. Dean's whole deal in "Jus In Bello" was that they should try to save everyone or go out trying, and he was appalled that Sam would even consider letting Nancy sacrifice herself. And Sam was made to look horrible for even considering going along with the plan. Sam's Machiavellian tactics were again shown to be the wrong thing in "Lucifer Rising." As late as "Sam, Interrupted," Dean was saying/thinking that it was his job to save everybody. And while both Dean and Sam know that they can't always save everyone, not trying to save everyone is a very different thing, and something that I think Dean especially considers a priority when considering a plan.

As for not suggesting Dean say yes to Michael, in Michael's case, giving him Dean as his preferred vessel would not be taking Michael off the table... It would be exactly what Michael would want. Sam was trying to avoid a high-powered confrontation between Michael (who was already in Adam) and Lucifer, not assure it. I think likely Sam also wanted Dean for moral support and to open the portal, but Dean could have said yes when Sam failed since no one was stopping him, except Michael was being his typical dick self and likely wouldn't have cared anyway, since he was apparently happy in easy to control Adam.

3) In my opinion, it wasn't selfish that Dean proposed the plan... it was the way that he did it: unilaterally and recklessly, much like Sam in season 4. And as I said above, I think the show to that point had generally frowned on a sacrifice one (or a few) to save the many stance, so that wasn't new in my opinion.

4) Compared to what they did to Sam in season 4, I think Dean came out looking much better here, myself. But obviously miles vary.

5) Dean also got to do so without having put the planet in danger in the first place or causing anyone to be killed first.... something that the writers had happen to Sam twice. When Dean saved the planet, he did so to fix a problem Sam caused. And in that case, the writers made sure to put in that thousands of people died even though, in my opinion, it wasn't even necessary to the plot. They just did it, I guess, to trash Sam's character or something. (Have I mentioned lately that I'm glad Carver is gone?)

[RulerofallIsurvey]

On 1/5/2018 at 10:26 PM, ILoveReading said:

Even if it had to be Sam why would he drink demon blood and make his vessel stronger for Lucifer?  Wouldn't it be easier for Sam to take control if Lucifer has to expend all his energy to keep his vessel from imploding.  That's why the sudden need to drink demon blood was pure white washing because not only did it come out of thin air but it made no sense in regards to the plan.

I'm not sure it works that way.  When the angels were taking vessels after the fall, some of the 'volunteers' imploded (or exploded, actually, iirc) immediately upon possession if the vessel wasn't strong enough: the angel couldn't keep it from happening, so I don't think that even Lucifer could keep his vessel from deteriorating.  He certainly couldn't keep Nick from deteriorating after all, and it was mentioned that possessed Nick was drinking gallons of demon blood every day.  Besides, I think that if Sam had not 'strengthened up' beforehand, once Lucifer took possession, he would have just made him drink the demon blood any way as he did with Nick, so it's kind of a moot point. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

17 hours ago, catrox14 said:

(Heh I guess Sam will forever win the who has the most saves game since apparently he saved the whole planet by possession and Dean was only going to save half the planet, the asshole).

ETA:  Although Dean did save the universe from implosion by talking Amara off the ledge. So I take that back. They are even on saving the planet alone now. That's fine.

Well...actually, they're not even.  When Sam jumped in the cage, he saved all the people on earth.  As far as I know, Heaven and Hell themselves were not in danger from Michael fighting Lucifer.  When Dean talked Amara down, he saved all the people on earth (and other beings on other planets throughout the Chuck-created universe), and the demons, and the ghosts in the veil, and the angels, and all the souls in Heaven and in Hell - all of which would have been destroyed.  So I think Dean forever wins the who has most saves game.  :)