Lastcall November 4, 2018 Share November 4, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, Mulva said: Yup. It's been The Dean Winchester Show since S4. I don't think it's a coincidence that S4 had a major ratings drop which the show never recovered from. Unless this is sarcasm, where is this information from? The ratings I have seen show ratings going up in season 5 even if there were less viewers. In fact, season 9 was the second highest rated season only being beaten by season 1. Season 9 was at the height of Carvers run and he was the only show runner to ever lean Dean. Compare that to the Sam and friends show we’ve gotten for the past 3 years. That’s a major ratings drop. Edited November 4, 2018 by Lastcall 5 Link to comment
devlin November 4, 2018 Share November 4, 2018 Just coz Jensen has a screen presence that eclipses everyone else on this show, I wouldn’t call this the dean show. In fact I think the writers are doing their utmost to make sam more noticeable 7 Link to comment
gonzosgirrl November 4, 2018 Share November 4, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, mertensia said: Angrily refuting Kaia would tell her her words hit home. Sam and Jody standing there letting her trash-talk Dean is much more of a "yeah, you're wrong". Maybe, I can see it being interpreted this way. I didn't, and nobody I discuss the show with did, but it's clearly possible since it was your take on it. However, later, when Dean was expressing his feelings of guilt, basically confirming all that TMNS said, this was Sam's response (and IMO, the authorial intent), because it let everything stand. When Dean said he put everyone in danger, 'stupid' danger because of his desire to make things right (get the spear, kill Michael), Sam said, "Yeah, I know." Confirmation. When Dean said he said yes to Michael because he thought (... left hanging, but we know what he thought) "It was stupid. *I* was stupid." Sam said, "You did what you had to do." Not denial, not support. Confirmation. And when Dean then went on to talk about how it felt to be possessed, and how he wasn't strong enough to fight, and how Michael being out there in the world now was all his fault, Sam said... *crickets* Teary-eyed, crickets, maybe, but still - nothing. All of it, left to stand, un-refuted. Jody said he had nothing to apologize for, but even that was left unclear as to what she was talking about. Anything from her broken arm (which is the impression I got, since they went on to mention her prior injuries) to what happened with Kaia, to Michael!Dean, to the high cost of fuel these days. If that was supposed to be some kind of repudiation of all TMNS said, then it was weak sauce. ETA: and I'm aware the conversation between Dean and Sam was somewhat ameliorated in the next episode, but that doesn't change the fact that it was all left to stand in the last one. And unfortunately, I have zero faith that this mindless killer/bully/weak Dean characterization won't be revisited ad nauseum throughout the rest of the season. Edited November 4, 2018 by gonzosgirrl 8 Link to comment
Myrelle November 4, 2018 Share November 4, 2018 12 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said: Maybe, I can see it being interpreted this way. I didn't, and nobody I discuss the show with did, but it's clearly possible since it was your take on it. However, later, when Dean was expressing his feelings of guilt, basically confirming all that TMNS said, this was Sam's response (and IMO, the authorial intent), because it let everything stand. When Dean said he put everyone in danger, 'stupid' danger because of his desire to make things right (get the spear, kill Michael), Sam said, "Yeah, I know." Confirmation. When Dean said he said yes to Michael because he thought (... left hanging, but we know what he thought) "It was stupid. *I* was stupid." Sam said, "You did what you had to do." Not denial, not support. Confirmation. And when Dean then went on to talk about how it felt to be possessed, and how he wasn't strong enough to fight, and how Michael being out there in the world now was all his fault, Sam said... *crickets* Teary-eyed, crickets, maybe, but still - nothing. All of it, left to stand, un-refuted. Jody said he had nothing to apologize for, but even that was left unclear as to what she was talking about. Anything from her broken arm (which is the impression I got, since they went on to mention her prior injuries) to what happened with Kaia, to Michael!Dean, to the high cost of fuel these days. If that was supposed to be some kind of repudiation of all TMNS said, then it was weak sauce. This is why I dread, and even at times, hate the way that the BMs have been written since S5; and it's basically why I've lost it entirely for the brothers' dynamic on this show. 2 Link to comment
Res November 4, 2018 Share November 4, 2018 12 minutes ago, Myrelle said: This is why I dread, and even at times, hate the way that the BMs have been written since S5; and it's basically why I've lost it entirely for the brothers' dynamic on this show. +10000 The BMs in this show more closely resemble the medical term than what they used to mean prior to S5, IMO, meaning they are full of sh*t. It's basically a single brother support system, if that, as well as a single brother apology system. There is no give and take between the two anymore, plus nothing is ever resolved which make these 2 seconds of weak, non-existent support water thin and a complete joke. Everyone knows the next episode will probably contradict, if not complete ignore everything previous, and probably stir up a whole new set of issues to just create lazy drama because all these writers are here for is the easiest paycheck and praise from their factions. JMHO. BM = BS 3 Link to comment
ILoveReading November 4, 2018 Share November 4, 2018 I have no doubt if the situation had been reversed, the first words out of Dean's mouth would have been you stopped Lucifer, that makes it worth it. But for some reason the show doesnt' seem to think Dean is willing to sacrifice himself for anyone but Sam. 11 Link to comment
gonzosgirrl November 4, 2018 Share November 4, 2018 13 minutes ago, ILoveReading said: I have no doubt if the situation had been reversed, the first words out of Dean's mouth would have been you stopped Lucifer, that makes it worth it. But for some reason the show doesnt' seem to think Dean is willing to sacrifice himself for anyone but Sam. No, don't you know? Dean is always willing to do the sacrificing as long as he's not the one being hurt. #YesIamstillbitter 12 Link to comment
ILoveReading November 4, 2018 Share November 4, 2018 25 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said: No, don't you know? Dean is always willing to do the sacrificing as long as he's not the one being hurt. #YesIamstillbitter Don't you know that Sam is the one that got hurt here. He was so stressed and put upon having to look after Jack, 30AU hunters, and Lucifer's vessel. Poor wounded baby bird had to endure being called chief and not having time to shave. 9 Link to comment
gonzosgirrl November 4, 2018 Share November 4, 2018 It occurs to me that this is the second time in Dabbernatural seasons that Dean has come back from pretty much certain death - the soul bomb and archangel possession - and there have been exactly forty-five words acknowledging it. Eight of those were Dean repeating "I'll tell you everything", which I guess happened off camera - but there was zero emotional payoff for Dean fans. CASTIEL Dean. You're alive? DEAN Yeah. CASTIEL What about the bomb and the Darkness? What happened? DEAN I'll tell you everything. Where is Sam? ---- Sam: I thought you were dead. Dean: I'm not sure that I'm not. Sam: So? Dean: I'll tell you. I'll tell you everything, okay? First off, who's Angry Spice? Unless I'm forgetting something, his sacrifice was never mentioned again. The fact he saved the world from Amara was never acknowledged verbally, by anyone. I suspect killing Lucifer will get the same treatment. 12 Link to comment
ILoveReading November 4, 2018 Share November 4, 2018 11 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said: Unless I'm forgetting something, his sacrifice was never mentioned again. The fact he saved the world from Amara was never acknowledged verbally, by anyone. I suspect killing Lucifer will get the same treatment. It was the power of God that stopped Amara. Not Dean. 6 Link to comment
Lastcall November 4, 2018 Share November 4, 2018 37 minutes ago, ILoveReading said: It was the power of God that stopped Amara. Not Dean. Yeah, it’s amazing how Dean is constantly saving the world, usually by himself, and never shown any appreciation or given any credit for it. Meanwhile, You have Sam who is responsible for starting two Apocolypses and along with Cas, Rowena and Crowley is responsible for every death caused by The Darkness and Lucifer treated with awe and reverence at every turn. 10 Link to comment
devlin November 4, 2018 Share November 4, 2018 1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said: It occurs to me that this is the second time in Dabbernatural seasons that Dean has come back from pretty much certain death - the soul bomb and archangel possession - and there have been exactly forty-five words acknowledging it. Eight of those were Dean repeating "I'll tell you everything", which I guess happened off camera - but there was zero emotional payoff for Dean fans. CASTIEL Dean. You're alive? DEAN Yeah. CASTIEL What about the bomb and the Darkness? What happened? DEAN I'll tell you everything. Where is Sam? ---- Sam: I thought you were dead. Dean: I'm not sure that I'm not. Sam: So? Dean: I'll tell you. I'll tell you everything, okay? First off, who's Angry Spice? Unless I'm forgetting something, his sacrifice was never mentioned again. The fact he saved the world from Amara was never acknowledged verbally, by anyone. I suspect killing Lucifer will get the same treatment. That’s if luci is actually dead which I am thinking he isn’t 2 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 November 4, 2018 Share November 4, 2018 1 hour ago, Lastcall said: Yeah, it’s amazing how Dean is constantly saving the world, usually by himself, and never shown any appreciation or given any credit for it. Meanwhile, You have Sam who is responsible for starting two Apocolypses and along with Cas, Rowena and Crowley is responsible for every death caused by The Darkness and Lucifer treated with awe and reverence at every turn. That Dean isn't shown appreciation isn't true as far as I've seen. Dean was given acknowledgement from God himself for saving the world... who blamed everything on Sam and acted as if Sam was the worst person ever. * And while not a world-saving scenario, Sam also gave Dean appreciation for saving Sam's soul from hell. In my opinion, the fact that the writers seem to carefully make sure that Dean is never the one to be the cause of an apocalypse even though he does things just as worthy of it as Sam and Castiel do (in my opinion), and that post season 5, they've then made sure that Dean - often alone - is generally the person who gets to save the world onscreen is enough for me. For them to also make an even bigger deal about Dean saving the world would just be rubbing it in the face of fans of the other main characters who they consistently make cause the apocalypses. As it is, post season 5, the writers seem to make it a point that Sam is either conveniently elsewhere or mainly unnecessary whenever the world needs to be saved (until recently.) It's like in order to make up for fans complaining about what happened with Dean in "Swan Song," Sam is lucky if he even gets to be anywhere near a world-saving scene unless he's going to either just be there or, more often, screw something up. Here's a rundown of the season finales post season 5 as examples:*** Season 6: Sam is there, but for the actual conclusion / world-affecting that part of the arc, where the souls are returned to purgatory (1st episode of season 7), Sam is having a mental breakdown offscreen. Season 7: Sam arguably did play a supporting role in that he helped to get rid of the tainted food, but this happened offscreen and we didn't see any of it. Sam had no role in killing Dick Roman. Season 8: Sam has a chance to maybe do something for the world, but chooses not to. Nothing changes, so Sam basically does nothing. Season 9: In a similar repeat of what happened earlier in the season with Abaddon, Sam is knocked out and is offscreen and contributes nothing to Metatron's defeat. The character who killed Kevin and took over Sam's body with little remorse gets a bigger role in saving the world than Sam does. Season 10: Sam does something reckless to save Dean and starts an apocalypse. Dean does something reckless to save Sam and nothing bad happens... later something good happens to help stop the apocalypse started by Sam. Season 11: Sam plays cheerleader. That's pretty much his only contribution. He's nowhere onscreen for the world-saving portion of the episode. Season 12: Finally - after 7 seasons - Sam is onscreen for the big finale showdown. It doesn't really have anything to do with saving the world, and he doesn't even get the big kill, but at least Sam's onscreen. Many fans complain, because Dean isn't there leading and doing all of the world-saving for the fifth time (or more) in the past 7 years. Season 13: Sam is there, but - and I'll admit that my recollection of exactly what happened is fuzzy - I'm pretty sure Sam screwed up somehow. Whatever happened, Sam's contribution wasn't memorable as far as I can recall. And I'm pretty sure his decisions lead to Lucifer and Michael being able to get back to earth in the first place. He did get an important assist by throwing the blade to Dean, and so finally had a contribution again to saving the world. It only took 8 seasons. I can't imagine if Dean had been offscreen for so many world-saving scenarios as Sam has been that there wouldn't be complaints. There were a ton of complaints when Dean was offscreen for even one, and even then Dean had his own interesting scene where he saved his mother rather than be entirely blacked out of the action, and that still wasn't good enough. My theory of why it's sometimes brought up that Sam saved the world is because otherwise, viewers might not even remember that there was a time when Sam actually did contribute to saving the world - rather than endangering it. In my opinion, the writers don't have to tell us that Dean saves the world all the time, because they actually bother to show us that Dean saves the world, something that until season 12, they hadn't done for Sam, in my opinion, since season 5. * And when Sam saved the world, he didn't get much appreciation either as far as I could tell. Castiel did try to save Sam from hell, but that appeared to be as much (or more) for Dean as it was for Sam. And then when it appeared that Sam came back wrong, Castiel shrugged his shoulders and went on with the business at hand. He also didn't think it was out of line to suggest that Dean leave Sam's soul in hell or to use Sam as a distraction by breaking the wall in Sam's head. Not much reverence there that I could see. *** And that doesn't even include other less major world-saving situation where it's also generally Dean who does the saving. Examples: Eve and Abbadon. It took until season 12 for Sam to have a major lesser contribution (the Alpha Vampire). 2 Link to comment
Lemuria November 5, 2018 Share November 5, 2018 8 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said: No, don't you know? Dean is always willing to do the sacrificing as long as he's not the one being hurt. #YesIamstillbitter And it always ticked me off that Sam has never taken any of it back, and the show has, as usual, given him a pass on it. 7 Link to comment
gonzosgirrl November 5, 2018 Share November 5, 2018 18 minutes ago, Lemuria said: And it always ticked me off that Sam has never taken any of it back, and the show has, as usual, given him a pass on it. Yup. He 'lied' about being okay with Dean dying, but the rest of his rant has never been refuted, never mind recanted. 8 Link to comment
Lemuria November 5, 2018 Share November 5, 2018 7 hours ago, ILoveReading said: Don't you know that Sam is the one that got hurt here. He was so stressed and put upon having to look after Jack, 30AU hunters, and Lucifer's vessel. Poor wounded baby bird had to endure being called chief and not having time to shave. Oh, yes, I remember in Season 4 when some fans were proclaiming that Sam's assumed psychological distress over Dean's being in Hell for 4 months was far, far, far worse than Dean's 40 years of physical and psychological 24/7 torture. (Though Sam's comment that he "thought it was my car" after only 4 months made me wonder just how much he worried about Dean after Ruby showed up.) 8 Link to comment
Lastcall November 5, 2018 Share November 5, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said: I can't imagine if Dean had been offscreen for so many world-saving scenarios as Sam has been that there wouldn't be complaints. There were a ton of complaints when Dean was offscreen for even one, and even then Dean had his own interesting scene where he saved his mother rather than be entirely blacked out of the action, and that still wasn't good enough. My theory of why it's sometimes brought up that Sam saved the world is because otherwise, viewers might not even remember that there was a time when Sam actually did contribute to saving the world - rather than endangering it. In my opinion, the writers don't have to tell us that Dean saves the world all the time, because they actually bother to show us that Dean saves the world, something that until season 12, they hadn't done for Sam, in my opinion, since season 5. * And when Sam saved the world, he didn't get much appreciation either as far as I could tell. Castiel did try to save Sam from hell, but that appeared to be as much (or more) for Dean as it was for Sam. And then when it appeared that Sam came back wrong, Castiel shrugged his shoulders and went on with the business at hand. He also didn't think it was out of line to suggest that Dean leave Sam's soul in hell or to use Sam as a distraction by breaking the wall in Sam's head. Not much reverence there that I could see. *** And that doesn't even include other less major world-saving situation where it's also generally Dean who does the saving. Examples: Eve and Abbadon. It took until season 12 for Sam to have a major lesser contribution (the Alpha Vampire). Responding solely as a Team Dean fan I will try to explain how I have seen the Dabb era. I’m not including anything before he took over as show runner because I believe the current issues lie at his feet. One exception, I see Eve and Abbadon as world killers since Eve planned on tipping the balance and over running the world with monsters and Abbadon planned on militarizing Hell and ripping out the souls on earth. Both were solo Dean kills, the Alpha had no plans for world domination only for the destruction of the MoL. Back to Dean vs Sam appreciation. You had the Sam fan nearly wet himself and drop Dean like hot garbage when he heard Sam was at the Asa Fox wake. You had the hunters in awe over Sams cheesy leadership speech while they manufactured a get rid of Dean B plot to push their General Sam story. When that failed miserably (because Dean sucked up all the oxygen again), they had to write Dean off the show to push General Sam 2.0. Now we see Sam surrounded by his adoring minions, loved by Alt Bobby, Jack and the Ice Queen above all else ( all who couldn’t care less about Dean with one even calling for his death), feared by all particularly Hell itself. When it comes to Dean, Sam is the only one that cares enough to even just drive him home once Michael leaves. Then he gets treated with the Alts taking over his home and treating him like the outsider instead of the guy that saved creation.....AGAIN! I get that over the entire 14 year series Dean comes off looking good but that doesn’t excuse the complete neglect of his character and the total favoritism of Sam under Dabb. Edited November 5, 2018 by Lastcall 10 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 November 5, 2018 Share November 5, 2018 6 hours ago, Lastcall said: I’m not including anything before he took over as show runner because I believe the current issues lie at his feet. That's fine, but then I don't think "never shown appreciation or get any credit for it" applies, since my interpretation of "never" means over the whole show's run.. That was the part that I was disagreeing with. 6 hours ago, Lastcall said: One exception, I see Eve and Abbadon as world killers since Eve planned on tipping the balance and over running the world with monsters and Abbadon planned on militarizing Hell and ripping out the souls on earth. Both were solo Dean kills, the Alpha had no plans for world domination only for the destruction of the MoL. I actually agree with you - and this ironically proves my point even more, since that's two more world-saving kills for Dean vs not one really for Sam - but I included the Alpha Vamp kill in case someone would take objection to me not including it, since for some fans it was a Big Deal that Sam got to kill the Alpha Vamp and Dean didn't, so I included it to be thorough. Truthfully though, I agree with you that world-saving-wise it wasn't even a blip. 6 hours ago, Lastcall said: I get that over the entire 14 year series Dean comes off looking good but that doesn’t excuse the complete neglect of his character and the total favoritism of Sam under Dabb. It's not that I don't sympathize with where you are coming from here... This is exactly how I felt about what I thought was being done to Sam's character during much of the Carver years... In my opinion, not only was Sam neglected plot-wise though - which I could have lived with - but he was given a characterization assassination, too, so that minor characters like Benny and Gadreel could shine. Generally though, I am told that it doesn't really count that I thought Sam's character got shoved aside and mistreated during that time, because supposedly the writers didn't mean to do that - I disagree - so therefor it doesn't count... and actually it was Dean who was being mistreated then, too, despite the fact that he had the powers and saved the world a few times while Sam didn't get to do much of anything important. But apparently I misinterpreted all of that. So while I sympathize, I've had many years of being told I had just imagined things, or just didn't see things right, or it doesn't count anyway, so my sympathy only goes so far. For me, Sam is finally maybe*** going to continue actually being able to at least help in the world-saving again. And he maybe is going to get to continue doing more helping than being the damsel-in-distress and / or turned into the "bad brother" for angst purposes, so for me, the current situation is a welcome change that I hope doesn't go away. I hope that things will get better for you in terms of Dean's character as well, but if in order for that to happen, we have to go back to what we got in the Carver years, then no, I don't want that. *** Since I've been burned before, I'm not yet convinced that this is somehow not going to end badly for Sam. 3 Link to comment
Aeryn13 November 5, 2018 Share November 5, 2018 Then I think the best scenario for both of us would be for Dean to be killed off - maybe they would at least grant him a heroic death out of sudden mercy - and then it could continue being the "Sam does everything perfectly" story while Dean-fans didn't have to suffer through bis slow, humiliating, painful destruction. 7 Link to comment
Lastcall November 5, 2018 Share November 5, 2018 1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said: It's not that I don't sympathize with where you are coming from here... This is exactly how I felt about what I thought was being done to Sam's character during much of the Carver years... In my opinion, not only was Sam neglected plot-wise though - which I could have lived with - but he was given a characterization assassination, too, so that minor characters like Benny and Gadreel could shine. Generally though, I am told that it doesn't really count that I thought Sam's character got shoved aside and mistreated during that time, because supposedly the writers didn't mean to do that - I disagree - so therefor it doesn't count... and actually it was Dean who was being mistreated then, too, despite the fact that he had the powers and saved the world a few times while Sam didn't get to do much of anything important. But apparently I misinterpreted all of that. So while I sympathize, I've had many years of being told I had just imagined things, or just didn't see things right, or it doesn't count anyway, so my sympathy only goes so far. For me, Sam is finally maybe*** going to continue actually being able to at least help in the world-saving again. And he maybe is going to get to continue doing more helping than being the damsel-in-distress and / or turned into the "bad brother" for angst purposes, so for me, the current situation is a welcome change that I hope doesn't go away. I hope that things will get better for you in terms of Dean's character as well, but if in order for that to happen, we have to go back to what we got in the Carver years, then no, I don't want that. *** Since I've been burned before, I'm not yet convinced that this is somehow not going to end badly for Sam. I agree with you too. Season 10 was the Dean show 100% and Sam was sidelined. For any Sam fans wondering why the Dean fans are so pissed right now (at least this one) it’s the same many felt under the Carver reign. The show works best when there is some balance or they at least throw a bone to the side lined characters fans. I know that a lot of people hated what Carver was doing but there were Sam stories and arcs even if they weren’t well received. Sam had the Amelia arc, Trial arc and Gadreel Arc (I know how much those are hated) so it showed the writers at least putting some thought and effort to give Sam a story and screen time. For his faults, Carver never implied Sam was harming the show by not allowing all the other great characters space to breath. The current group are writing love letter episodes to every character not named Dean. Honestly one Dean version of Red Meat, the Raid or Scar a year would have gone a long way but they can’t even give Dean fans that. So I’m glad you are happy with things now but I think the choices that are being made are harming the show and jeopardizing it’s future. 3 Link to comment
gonzosgirrl November 5, 2018 Share November 5, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Lastcall said: I agree with you too. Season 10 was the Dean show 100% and Sam was sidelined. For any Sam fans wondering why the Dean fans are so pissed right now (at least this one) it’s the same many felt under the Carver reign. The show works best when there is some balance or they at least throw a bone to the side lined characters fans. I know that a lot of people hated what Carver was doing but there were Sam stories and arcs even if they weren’t well received. Sam had the Amelia arc, Trial arc and Gadreel Arc (I know how much those are hated) so it showed the writers at least putting some thought and effort to give Sam a story and screen time. For his faults, Carver never implied Sam was harming the show by not allowing all the other great characters space to breath. The current group are writing love letter episodes to every character not named Dean. Honestly one Dean version of Red Meat, the Raid or Scar a year would have gone a long way but they can’t even give Dean fans that. So I’m glad you are happy with things now but I think the choices that are being made are harming the show and jeopardizing it’s future. I say, absolutely without sarcasm and tongue nowhere near my cheek, I would be thrilled if Dean were sidelined by Dabb in the same way that Sam was by Carver. Thrilled. And the bolded resonates particularly loudly for me - it's not just Sam that Dean (Jensen) is diminished for now, it's everyone. Edited November 5, 2018 by gonzosgirrl 10 Link to comment
Myrelle November 5, 2018 Share November 5, 2018 3 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said: I hope that things will get better for you in terms of Dean's character as well, but if in order for that to happen, we have to go back to what we got in the Carver years, then no, I don't want that I'm sure you don't because in order for us to have reached where we are now, I feel that with Dabb they've brought back the worst of Kripke's and Gamble's reign as showrunners and then multiplied that by 10. So think about how you felt during the Carver years and multiply it by 3 because that's how many times this has happened in the Dean fandom. And as far a sympathizing goes, I've found it hard to sympathize with Sam fans since Gamble doubled down on what Kripke started as he was going out the door; and especially now, while part and parcel of Dabb's own unique brand of destruction of my favorite includes doubling down on stripping him of everything that made him my favorite in the first place, just so they can give it all to yours in yet another attempt to make your favorite more popular with the fandom. IMO, at this point, there is not one writer on this show now who truly cares about or respects Dean OR the actor who portrays him OR his fandom. To me, it's as if, more than ever now, they want the same thing that they wanted with Mark Sheppard-to see him gone. So yes to this, AFAIC too. 3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said: Then I think the best scenario for both of us would be for Dean to be killed off - maybe they would at least grant him a heroic death out of sudden mercy - and then it could continue being the "Sam does everything perfectly" story while Dean-fans didn't have to suffer through bis slow, humiliating, painful destruction. A thousand times yes. 16 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said: I say, without absolutely sarcasm and tongue nowhere near my cheek, I would be thrilled if Dean were sidelined by Dabb in the same way that Sam was by Carver. Thrilled. And the bolded resonates particularly loudly for me - it's not just Sam that Dean (Jensen) is diminished for now, it's everyone. And this too. 7 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 November 5, 2018 Share November 5, 2018 4 hours ago, Lastcall said: I agree with you too. Season 10 was the Dean show 100% and Sam was sidelined. For me it was more season 8 and 9 that was the problem - and I'll explain below - than 10. I actually didn't mind and even liked much of season 10 believe it or not. As I said, it wasn't really the sidelining that bothered me as much as what Carver did to Sam's character. And Sam for me had a good emotional arc in season 10... I didn't much appreciate Carver having Sam start another apocalypse, but I pretty much expected it anyway, so... 4 hours ago, Lastcall said: The show works best when there is some balance or they at least throw a bone to the side lined characters fans. I know that a lot of people hated what Carver was doing but there were Sam stories and arcs even if they weren’t well received. Sam had the Amelia arc, Trial arc and Gadreel Arc (I know how much those are hated) so it showed the writers at least putting some thought and effort to give Sam a story and screen time. Yes, but for me it was the "thought" that was part of the problem with the arcs. With the Amelia arc, it seemed to me like Sam was being set up to be a traitor. There was no attempt really in my opinion to make his break from hunting appear as the right thing to do. If there had been, I don't think that abandoning Kevin would have been thrown in there. Or maybe Sam might have done something meaningful with his time away from hunting. I mean were we really supposed to feel sorry for Sam - rather than think he was just being selfish - that he had to leave behind a maintenance position and that he didn't break up a marriage? It's not like he was working at a homeless shelter to help people or saving orphaned puppies at an animal shelter. In my opinion, the point of Sam abandoning Kevin and hunting was to show that Sam giving up hunting was selfish and bad. And having Benny as a reflection - except being loyal and not letting Dean down - was to further show Sam was "wrong." This is why I didn't buy the "Sam was being mature" thing. Either that wasn't the point to begin with or - again in my opinion - the writers didn't really put that much thought into Sam's arc, because that's not what they were showing onscreen at all. For me, what they were showing onscreen was character assassination, partially so that Benny could shine, and I'd rather they hadn't given Sam an "arc" at all. The Trial arc, too, was set up for failure, since I don't think there was ever any thought that the gates would actually be closed. I have a different opinion about the Gadreel arc, since in my opinion, that wasn't really a Sam arc. It might have been fun for Jared to play, but that's not Sam. That arc in my opinion was actually about Gadreel, not Sam, and for me this was highlighted by the fact that all of the emotional stuff Sam started out with in regards to Gadreel was summarily dropped... after Sam was made to look like a jerk for being angry (I don't buy the "harsh truths" thing, because 1) they were obvious untruths and what Sam legitimately could have been angry about was ignored and 2) they were reversed by the end of the season. And in the end, it was Gadreel who helped save the day and got redemption - so it was about him - whereas Sam's only role there at the end was to parrot that "hey maybe Gadreel wasn't actually so bad after all and look how helpful and what a 'friend' he's being." Otherwise Sam was knocked unconscious and not even present for the big finale - oh except to say that he lied and show himself to be a hypocrite *sigh*. So for me the Gadreel arc was actually about Gadreel. The only thing Sam learned was that Gadreel was actually not a bad guy (which was about Gadreel) and that he (Sam), too would actually have done what Dean did, so what was he really angry about? (which was more about Dean and Dean's actions.) Quote For his faults, Carver never implied Sam was harming the show by not allowing all the other great characters space to breath. I don't really read writer or showrunner comments, so I can't say. However Carver did appear to be saying to me that Sam was a crappy brother... oh and look here's a cool vampire who is a better brother to Dean than Sam is. Oh and Sam's also a hypocrite, too, and way too "mean to Dean." And in my opinion in a show that's supposed to be about brothers, and where their relationship is supposed to be the show's bread and butter, that's pretty much one of the crappiest things you can do to a character, in my opinion. Quote Honestly one Dean version of Red Meat, the Raid or Scar a year would have gone a long way but they can’t even give Dean fans that. So I’m glad you are happy with things now but I think the choices that are being made are harming the show and jeopardizing it’s future. And this is probably a good example of why, for this Sam fan anyway, (and to be clear I also like Dean, just not as much as Sam) you may not understand my position. I hated "The Raid" and didn't think that it was a pro-Sam episode at all. I saw it as setting Sam up to be shown as wrong again. Even if the supposed end result is supposed to be a good thing... I don't see it that way. I liked Sam the way he was, so a premise that the way Sam was was just lazy and or not living up to his potential is just another way to subtly insult Sam's character. I think that Dean wouldn't get an episode like "The Raid", because I don't think the writers would show Dean falling for the same shit Sam fell for there. Sam is generally the one shown to make decisions he doesn't think enough about which leads to bad things happening. Dean generally gets to make reckless decisions and be right about it. "The Raid" was just yet another example of the former, in my opinion. So I'm not saying that I'm totally happy with what's happening, but at least right now Sam is actually in the world-saving parts of the show and the show is only subtly dinging Sam's character and I can see where they are thinking that they are doing good things for him rather than outright trashing his character, but for me, any hope of having really good, consistent Sam characterization went out the window when Gamble left. 4 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said: I say, absolutely without sarcasm and tongue nowhere near my cheek, I would be thrilled if Dean were sidelined by Dabb in the same way that Sam was by Carver. Thrilled. I'm not sure I understand why, since in my opinion, Carver not only didn't give Sam any decent storylines, but he trashed Sam's character in favor of his pets Benny and Gadreel... oh and had Sam start another apocalypse. The only Sam-positive episodes I can recall from his era happened after Carver probably had at least one foot out the door. So mileage obviously varies here. 4 hours ago, Myrelle said: So think about how you felt during the Carver years and multiply it by 3 because that's how many times this has happened in the Dean fandom. And as far a sympathizing goes, I've found it hard to sympathize with Sam fans since Gamble doubled down on what Kripke started as he was going out the door; Gamble gave Dean some good storylines. If Lisa and Ben was supposed to be similar to Amelia (which no, in my opinion), he also had the getting Sam's soul storyline, and the Eve takedown. In season 7, Dean had the Dick Roman storyline which included at least one side character - Frank - associated only with him. And through it all, Dean was mainly Dean. There was no "Dean is such a crappy brother a vampire is a better brother than he is" storyline. Sam was appreciative or Dean and said so. Dean was often being acknowledged as important and that what he did was important. You may not have liked Gamble's storylines for Dean, but I don't see them as character damaging as what Carver did to Sam. I also didn't see Kripke's era as making Dean into the "worst brother ever." Quite teh opposite, so so for it's just not the same, and I don't think you can quite understand. It's not the sidelineing that was the problem: it was the character assassination... And I'm not just talking about the stereotypes. Yes, Dean is a horndog and a "sloppy eater," but Sam is prissy and a wetblanket. That wasn't my issue. It's the Sam is a selfish jerk who abandons innocent people to be tortured by demons, abandons his responsibilities, abandons his brother, resents his brother's friends, is "mean" to him when he's only trying to save his life that I resented with a huge side helping with Sam is wrong and starts yet another apocalypse with how wrong he is... And since I found this characterization either deliberate or done out of carelessness and out of character based on Sam's previous character growth, that's the thing that bugged. Considering that there are quite a few fans who liked both brothers before season 8 and 9, but hated or didn't like Sam after season 8 and 9 but still liked Dean, says - to me - that yeah, what was done to Sam in season 8 was worse than what was done to Dean during other times in the series. And for me, it's almost equally as bad if that was a deliberate thing or a neglectful one. One is deliberate character assassination, the other is indifference to the character with little to no attempt to fix it even after it became apparent that there was damage being done. 1 Link to comment
Aeryn13 November 5, 2018 Share November 5, 2018 Quote Gamble gave Dean some good storylines. If Lisa and Ben was supposed to be similar to Amelia (which no, in my opinion), he also had the getting Sam's soul storyline, and the Eve takedown. In season 7, Dean had the Dick Roman storyline which included at least one side character - Frank - associated only with him. And through it all, Dean was mainly Dean. There was no "Dean is such a crappy brother a vampire is a better brother than he is" storyline. Sam was appreciative or Dean and said so. Dean was often being acknowledged as important and that what he did was important. I think Gamble started the trend of loser!Dean and super badass!Sam, not as much as Dabb is doing right now but the first half of Season 6 was like a precursor to the second half of Season 8 or 12. What I will say is that Season 7 is probably the most equal Season between the brothers IMO. Sam did have a supernaturally-adjacent story with the Hellucinations but overall, with the Leviathan arc, I thought nearly every second each brother spend onscreen during Season 7 was completely pointless to the plot. I thought it was really boring and disjointed but I have Season 7 marked down as one of the more inoffensive Seasons. Of course my hope of ever getting smart, resourceful and badass hero Dean back is dwindling by the second. Leader!Dean is gone anyway. Even the recent episode where the character at least wasn`t trashed wall-to-wall, he had to be saved by random civilian guy AND then by Sam. Who found the case, called the shots, got to be McGuyver, got attached to the OC they presented as better-looking and smarter and is still the Chief. Dean got a poignant emotional moment or too but overall he was still mainly used as goofy comic relief in the episode. And this is just not appealing to me. There used to be a balance with that stuff, now it`s either that or "dick", the violent thug. 6 Link to comment
devlin November 5, 2018 Share November 5, 2018 6 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said: I say, absolutely without sarcasm and tongue nowhere near my cheek, I would be thrilled if Dean were sidelined by Dabb in the same way that Sam was by Carver. Thrilled. And the bolded resonates particularly loudly for me - it's not just Sam that Dean (Jensen) is diminished for now, it's everyone. At least carver was interested in sam enough to try something new with him even if it didn’t work for some people. When he realised it wasn’t working, he gave sam a supernatural storyline. Dabb is just pretty much writing dean off the show. 7 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 November 5, 2018 Share November 5, 2018 2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said: I think Gamble started the trend of loser!Dean and super badass!Sam, not as much as Dabb is doing right now but the first half of Season 6 was like a precursor to the second half of Season 8 or 12. I tend to be a person who does not consider Soulless Sam to be the same thing as actual Sam, and once Sam did come back in season 6B and season 7, things went back to the way they were before mostly. It was also made clear - to me anyway - that Soulless Sam was not a good person and was actually more of a sociopath. Because sure, it's easier to be "badass" when you don't give a flying f$ck about anyone else. It's much harder to be badass when you have to actually consider the people that you are saving and work around them. And I think the definitive scene for me that showed that in the end Soulless Sam was not actually a true badass was the flashback to when he shot the bartender in "The Man Who Knew Too Much." I considered that more cold and somewhat cowardly rather than badass. Same thing with setting up the husband as unknowing bait in "Unforgiven." From those instances, it appeared to me that Soulless Sam would be the kind of person to grab a civilian as a shield to protect himself... which was pretty much how the Bobby scenario played out in "Appointment in Samarra." I mean it's one thing if you have an Indiana Jones scenario where you shoot the bad guy brandishing the sword at you. It would be another thing if you grabbed the nearest civilian tossed them on the sword to shield you and then shot the bad guy. That loses you your badass points, in my opinion. Actually that loses you all your points, in my opinion. Heh. And Gamble's early season 6 did give us Dean in the Twilight episode where he got to be badass without resorting to those tactics, and in fact doing all he could to make sure he didn't hurt anyone while also killing all the bad guys and saving the civilians. 1 hour ago, devlin said: At least carver was interested in sam enough to try something new with him even if it didn’t work for some people. When he realised it wasn’t working, he gave sam a supernatural storyline. Which Carver also made a bust. Instead of Sam doing the heroic thing and being willing to sacrifice to close the gates of hell, Carver seemed to make it all about Sam being jealous and somewhat suicidal because Dean didn't love him best... In my opinion that pretty much made it worse, not better. And he still didn't try to do anything to fix what obviously didn't work in the first half. He just made Sam even more questionable instead ...and seemed to totally backtrack on what he said he was trying to do in the first place. I'm not going to thank him for that, myself. That just made me more ticked off. Saying that you're trying to show a "mature" decision with one character by supposedly showing him trying to break a codependent bond only works if you don't then make that same relationship more codependent than ever, and then romanticize that. In my opinion anyway. Instead, I'm going to think that was the goal all along, because that makes the most sense to me... which fine if that was going to be your message, but don't make an example of and trash the character you are using as the "bad example" in order to do it, thank you very much. Link to comment
Lastcall November 5, 2018 Share November 5, 2018 2 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said: I tend to be a person who does not consider Soulless Sam to be the same thing as actual Sam, and once Sam did come back in season 6B and season 7, things went back to the way they were before mostly. It was also made clear - to me anyway - that Soulless Sam was not a good person and was actually more of a sociopath. Because sure, it's easier to be "badass" when you don't give a flying f$ck about anyone else. It's much harder to be badass when you have to actually consider the people that you are saving and work around them. And I think the definitive scene for me that showed that in the end Soulless Sam was not actually a true badass was the flashback to when he shot the bartender in "The Man Who Knew Too Much." I considered that more cold and somewhat cowardly rather than badass. Same thing with setting up the husband as unknowing bait in "Unforgiven." From those instances, it appeared to me that Soulless Sam would be the kind of person to grab a civilian as a shield to protect himself... which was pretty much how the Bobby scenario played out in "Appointment in Samarra." I mean it's one thing if you have an Indiana Jones scenario where you shoot the bad guy brandishing the sword at you. It would be another thing if you grabbed the nearest civilian tossed them on the sword to shield you and then shot the bad guy. That loses you your badass points, in my opinion. Actually that loses you all your points, in my opinion. Heh. And Gamble's early season 6 did give us Dean in the Twilight episode where he got to be badass without resorting to those tactics, and in fact doing all he could to make sure he didn't hurt anyone while also killing all the bad guys and saving the civilians. Which Carver also made a bust. Instead of Sam doing the heroic thing and being willing to sacrifice to close the gates of hell, Carver seemed to make it all about Sam being jealous and somewhat suicidal because Dean didn't love him best... In my opinion that pretty much made it worse, not better. And he still didn't try to do anything to fix what obviously didn't work in the first half. He just made Sam even more questionable instead ...and seemed to totally backtrack on what he said he was trying to do in the first place. Season 6 is actually one of my favorite seasons while 7 used to be my least so Gamble is a mix for me. Twihard is a perfect example of what I consider as balance. Dean fans were riled that every one was going on about Sam being the better hunter and Dean treated like a rookie. Despite that they gave Dean fans one of the most iconic Badass Dean episodes of the entire series. I also get that some don’t consider soulless Sam as the real one but he was part of real Sam. In fact that was the only time in the series that I could actually believe Sam was a bigger badass and better hunter than Dean. So Jared is capable of selling that while the current batch of writers for whatever reason can’t. As for Carver, he did interviews where he said he his intention was to show Sam’s growth. I believe he honestly was trying to do right by Sam, he just failed spectacularly at it. Dabb’s group seems to intentionally try to punish Dean fans while trying to fix old iconic moments and storylines failing just as badly or worse than Carver did with Sam. Link to comment
gonzosgirrl November 5, 2018 Share November 5, 2018 2 minutes ago, Lastcall said: I also get that some don’t consider soulless Sam as the real one but he was part of real Sam. I agree with this. Soulless Sam was Sam in the same way that Demon Dean was Dean. Neither chose to become what they did, but they were still in there, IMO. Otherwise, Sam would've killed everyone who got in his way, Dean would not have had any sense (however warped) of right and wrong which, again, IMO he did. But all that aside, Soulless Sam gave Jared a full half season of exploring a different facet of his character, and another half, plus most of the next one, dealing with the aftermath. Season eight gave him the Amelia arc, and when that failed, the trials. Then Gadreel. So again I say, I would love for Dean to be sidelined the way Sam has been. 9 Link to comment
ILoveReading November 5, 2018 Share November 5, 2018 I wish Dabb would treat Dean as bad as Carver treated Sam 7 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 November 6, 2018 Share November 6, 2018 3 hours ago, Lastcall said: As for Carver, he did interviews where he said he his intention was to show Sam’s growth. I believe he honestly was trying to do right by Sam, he just failed spectacularly at it. I think what makes it hard for me to really agree with you here were the almost cruel, I'll call them digs against Sam, that Carver seemed to throw in the narrative that really didn't need to be in there to make the story happen. Abandoning Kevin, complete with "humorous" voice mails from Kevin, abandoning Dean without even a cursory look, complete with Bobby reprimand. The "Sam hit a dog" digs, one from Crowley of all people. Sam trying to murder innocent Benny, in the process letting Dean be knocked out and cuffed to a radiator and then taking off with no warning, leaving Martin to ultimately be killed. And Sam never apologizing for not looking for Dean. Then Sam insisting Dean had to give Benny up all the while making Benny a sympathetic character. And maybe most random of all: what should have been a fairly innocuous story arc - Amelia - included Sam knowingly sleeping with another man's wife, knowing he [Sam] was going to leave her. Why even have Sam do that when previously he wouldn't even consider flirting with another guy's fiancee ...except to make Sam look badly? (I mean seriously, really? Sam has to commit adultery, too? Why? What did that even add to the story?) I just can't see how much of any of that was trying to show Sam in a good light or "trying to do right by Sam." For me, I just find it difficult to believe that anyone - never mind a showrunner - would think any of those things would be in any way a positive thing for a character, so that' what makes it so difficult for me to believe. *shrug* And if those same things had been done with Dean, I can't imagine the claims would be that the showrunner didn't mean for them to look badly. It would be "Dean would never not look for Sam," and "How could they make Dean such a jerk and have him sleep with a married woman?" My opinion on that. 2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said: Season eight gave him the Amelia arc, and when that failed, the trials. Then Gadreel. All horrendous. I'd much rather Sam had had no arc at all than any of these arcs. Each one made Sam look worse than the last. Well almost. "Sam hit a dog" was the "joke" that kept on giving in a bad way. And the last arc in my opinion wasn't even about Sam, but about Gadreel who was the one who did all of the saving whenever Sam got knocked out, beat up, killed or what have you and who was the one touted in the end as being redeemed. It was an insult, in my opinion how Sam was made to call the being who used his body and violated his mind a "friend," diminishing how awful it was for him to be possessed. And to make it even worse almost, Gadreel was written as misunderstood and abused, and look! he saved people! making him gray rather than evil, so that the audience would agree that he deserved redemption. 4 hours ago, ILoveReading said: I wish Dabb would treat Dean as bad as Carver treated Sam Imagine if Michael were suddenly given a sympathetic slant and a redemption storyline and Dean had to defend Michael, saying how after thinking about it, maybe Michael didn't really mean him any harm after all while possessing him and that Sam should consider Michael a "friend" who was trying to help... And Dean would learn that being possessed by Michael was somehow a necessary evil after all in order for Michael to get his redemption... except it had nothing to do with Dean himself or Dean influencing Michael in any way... It was all Michael on his own learning that he needed redemption. And then later Dean was written out of the final showdown but Michael in another body got to help save the world. That, for me, would parallel the Gadreel storyline that Sam got, because that's pretty much what happened to Sam in that storyline. And if Dean fans would be happy with that, well, then I don't know what to say, because I can't imagine that would be something they would actually want. I know I wouldn't want that for Dean and would be insulted on his behalf. And I personally don't think that Dabb would do that to Dean they way that Carver did that to Sam. I have no doubt that Michael will remain evil, so that no one will say "see Dean being possessed wasn't so bad after all. What's he so torn up about and whining about?" as many said when it happened to Sam. It is being made obvious that Michael is awful and that Dean suffered, drowning, during his possession, not having Dean learn some lesson about how his being possessed wasn't so bad after all. Again, just my opinion on that. 2 Link to comment
Myrelle November 6, 2018 Share November 6, 2018 (edited) 6 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said: But all that aside, Soulless Sam gave Jared a full half season of exploring a different facet of his character, and another half, plus most of the next one, dealing with the aftermath. Season eight gave him the Amelia arc, and when that failed, the trials. Then Gadreel. So again I say, I would love for Dean to be sidelined the way Sam has been. I would love for JA to have been given even half of the opportunities that JP has been given to make even the shitty writing on this show work. And FWIW, *I* think that it was Carver's and Singer's intention that Dean(and only Dean) was supposed to be seen as the bad guy in S8 and 9 by first returning from Purgatory and ruining Sam's chance at a normal life in S8 and then by tricking Sam into an angel possession that went wrong in S9 and it was Sam who saw who the real bad guy was-Dean-in both of the seasons and the writing afforded him the opportunities to call Dean out on all of it again during both those seasons and Dean was properly brought to heel every time and that's why Gadreel was redeemed-to make Dean look bad, not Sam. The MOC storyline was Dean not being the sharpest tool in the shed, according to Singer, and no few in the fandom also; but I still enjoyed it because Jensen was finally afforded a myth-arc storyline that wasn't turned into a red herring or a bait and switch and he made it work even though they barely touched on it in S10-which I saw as a type of reward from Carver for all that he'd done with the shit writing for his character in S8 and 9. And I'm not going to feel bad for thinking that he well deserved that from Carver. But as every Dean fan knew, it was never going to last, because the "star" of this show and no. 1 on the call sheet is JP and that will never be allowed to be forgotten by anyone associated with the show, so no matter how bad it might seem to get for a Sam fan, you can always rest assured that if you just remain patient, you'll get everything that you want(and more!) in time. Just witness what is happening now. And every Dean fan that I know knew it and could feel it coming on with the S10 finale and the end of the MOC sl. And what came out of Comic Con from Dabb that summer cemented it. And here we are in the middle of yet another rendition of the Sam Show, even including yet another red herring(the long awaited Michael!Dean possession sl)-only this time we're getting to see Dean diminished to prop the other writers pets, as well. Oh the joy of being a Dean fan on this show. Edited November 6, 2018 by Myrelle 7 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 November 6, 2018 Share November 6, 2018 1 hour ago, Myrelle said: ...and that's why Gadreel was redeemed-to make Dean look bad, not Sam. I'm honestly asking here: how did redeeming Gadreel make Dean look bad in your opinion? 1 hour ago, Myrelle said: and it was Sam who saw who the real bad guy was-Dean-in both of the seasons and the writing afforded him the opportunities to call Dean out on all of it again during both those seasons And then shown to be wrong both times, in my opinion. Benny wasn't evil, and Sam would do the same thing that Dean did, just like Dean said. So Dean not apologizing was justified by the narrative in multiple ways: Sam lied and Gadreeel helped save the world. And even Kevin getting killed had some good consequences. But this is an old argument that isn't going to go anywhere, because I'm never going to see it.It's just not what I saw when watching the show. 1 hour ago, Myrelle said: so no matter how bad it might seem to get for a Sam fan, you can always rest assured that if you just remain patient, you'll get everything that you want(and more!) in time. I got what I wanted in season 6B and season 7. It was summarily all taken away and worse in the first episode of season 8. I've been waiting since then for Sam to have a lasting, good - in my opinion - characterization ever since. Season 11 came really close, but that didn't last. This current one isn't really it, because I don't want a "Sam as Leader" arc. I like Sam partly because he wasn't comfortable as leader. I don't want Sam to be Dean. If that's what I wanted, then Dean would be my favorite. For me, this is just another subtle dig at Sam, because apparently he wasn't good enough the way that he was, and so has to be fundamentally changed to be more like Dean. In my opinion, no he doesn't, and I wish they would cut it out, because eventually they aren't going to be able to help themselves and it's all going to end very badly and make Sam look bad. Again. Whether it's intentional or not the result is generally the same. When they try to "change" or"fix" Sam - like they supposedly tried to do in season 8 - they screw it up and ruin it. I thought Sam in season 2-3 was just fine, then came season 4. I thought Sam in season 6B and 7 was just fine, then came season 8. I thought Sam in season 11 was just fine, then came season 12. If they would just leave Sam alone, I'd be happy... but they don't. Link to comment
mertensia November 6, 2018 Share November 6, 2018 Yeah, I'm not sure why they're pushing a "Sam must be the leader!" when no one, including apparently Jared, sees Sam in that role. I mean, yeah, I can see Sam 20 years in the future being the head of research and teaching others how to research monsters and ways to kill, etc. But that's different than his going all Hannibal Smith and his classic half-pincer maneuver, which is what the writers seem to want. I mean, duh. Focus on his actual skillsets. And Sam will never not be funny in Plucky's as he's nodding and running out the door saying"at least I'll see it coming". Season 7 was awesome. Except for the Osiris episode. 2 Link to comment
gonzosgirrl November 6, 2018 Share November 6, 2018 7 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said: Imagine if Michael were suddenly given a sympathetic slant and a redemption storyline They're doing worse. They're making him stupid, with his unnecessary and ridiculous monster army plan, bested by a little girl with a spear and a feisty attitude. But Dean? He was just too stupid (saying yes) and too weak to fight once he did. And they had him say those words out loud, read it into canon, with no argument from anyone. That's not interpretation, it happened 8 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said: Sam hit a dog" was the "joke" that kept on giving in a bad way. I think the "Dean is a dick" "joke" has gotten way more negative mileage. And they never had Sam say it himself. At least Sam saved the damn dog. 7 Link to comment
catrox14 November 6, 2018 Share November 6, 2018 5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said: Sam in season 11 was just fine, then came season 12. If they would just leave Sam alone, I'd be happy... but they don't. Dabb wants this for Sam. I have no idea why he wants to turn Sam into Dean other than he might be thinking of writing Dean out of the show and he thinks he can just cut and paste dialogue and actions and have it work. The problem is that Jensen IMO is why Dean is likeable at all. Put the same words and behaviors in another actor's mouth and you end up with what Kripke attempted to recreate in Revolution and IMO that character wasn't likeable at all. Now, if Dabb somehow plays it that Sam was trying to be Dean and realizes that he's not and then Sam can find his own footing again, well, it will be dumb but IMO at least it's for a reason. And it would allow Sam to be his best self and that's not trying to be Dean. But I legitimately think this is exactly what Dabb wants for Sam. 5 Link to comment
catrox14 November 6, 2018 Share November 6, 2018 On 11/5/2018 at 3:20 AM, AwesomO4000 said: *** Since I've been burned before, I'm not yet convinced that this is somehow not going to end badly for Sam. Given what happened in 14.01 with Sam yelling at the demons that if anyone wants to be King of Hell they would have to come through Sam, I won't be a bit surprised if it ends up that Sam will be the King of Hell but he'll do it to keep demons in check and to save the universe from whatever Michael has planned. That's not a spoiler, just my thoughts on why Dabb did that and why he is made Sam into General Sam. Spoiler If it comes to pass that someone dies under Sams watch, well that is a problem all leaders face (Dean has as well). I suspect Sam will learn the lesson of "you can't save everyone and I won't be surprised if Dean or Cas remind him that he shouldn't feel guilty for it.and it will be something for Sam to angst about. If they actually have Sam understand Deans POV on leadership, protectiveness and loss and have Sam tell this to Dean, I would fall over. 5 Link to comment
Myrelle November 6, 2018 Share November 6, 2018 5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said: I'm honestly asking here: how did redeeming Gadreel make Dean look bad in your opinion? Not much time. Today is my long work day, but I'll do my best with the twenty or so minutes that I have... Go back and watch the scene wherein Sam refers to Gadreel as their "friend" and just remove that part of it(because IA that that was terrible writing, even ally would have been a better term), but the rest of it was constructed to make Sam appear to be the right and the more injured party-the big caveat there being that DEAN was the one who injured him most, not Gadreel-no, Gadreel had now become their ally who was out there trying to save the world from Metatron also now, and Dean, by holding on to his "petty" grudge(petty in the minds of the writers, that is) was once again not seeing the big picture that involved stopping Metatron, first and foremost, and was once again allowing his emotions to cloud his judgment and rule the day thus endangering the plan to save the world. And see, Sam was being shown AND written as being the more noble, magnanimous, far-seeing, and intelligent of the two brothers in this case and once again-while Dean was written as hanging with a demon and doing feelings/emotions "wrong" again(something the writers of this show have pointed out as being a flaw/fault in humans, and especially of Dean's-more than any other character on this show, IMO-quite often). And the Mark was rarely even written as a consideration for any of Dean's emotions within any actual dialogues during this storyline, at this point in the story. No, what Dean felt about Gadreel was wrong at the beginning and wrong at the end, too-because Dean does feelings "wrong" and Sam does them "right"-more often than not, on this show. Just as, according to the writers, Sam is usually depicted as more of the "big-picture" thinker while Dean usually just goes with his gut on most everything. And it's that idea that Dean does feelings "wrong"-according to Sam AKA the writers' mouthpiece to me in many instances-that was being pushed more than any other thought/idea concerning the brothers in S8 and 9, And it didn't matter that the inattention to canon made Sam look more like a jealous hypocrite than someone who had learned their lesson where it concerned trusting monsters because LOL! canon had been put into place long ago on this show and the message that Dean's feelings of not trusting Sam with the knowledge of who had saved him from Purgatory-a vampire-that was the thing that the writers wanted us to see as the worst choice in the beginning of that season. And that thought that Dean does feelings "wrong" was the one that the writing of most of the dialogues in those two seasons revolved around, IMO. And, as such, it was left to the skillsets of both of the actors to either uphold that message or undermine it. And that's all I have time for right now, except that I'll add that this 2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said: I think the "Dean is a dick" "joke" has gotten way more negative mileage. is by far the joke that keeps on giving the most on this show. In fact, it's gotten so bad that even some Dean fans see Dean as being more "self-aware" of who and what he is, than self-loathing(as I see him) in almost every instance that he says that- and especially when he's told that his thoughts and/or feelings are "wrong" about something-Mother Mary the Ice Queen and Jack the Spawn of Satan being the most recent ones, but certainly not the only ones. 4 Link to comment
gonzosgirrl November 6, 2018 Share November 6, 2018 9 minutes ago, catrox14 said: Hide contents If it comes to pass that someone dies under Sams watch, well that is a problem all leaders face (Dean has as well). I suspect Sam will learn the lesson of "you can't save everyone and I won't be surprised if Dean or Cas remind him that he shouldn't feel guilty for it.and it will be something for Sam to angst about. If they actually have Sam understand Deans POV on leadership, protectiveness and loss and have Sam tell this to Dean, I would fall over. Spoiler It's more likely Dean will list all his failures compared to Sam's one, that probably isn't really his fault anyway. Just one more way to turn Sam into Dean. 6 Link to comment
ILoveReading November 6, 2018 Share November 6, 2018 1 hour ago, Myrelle said: In fact, it's gotten so bad that even some Dean fans see Dean as being more "self-aware" of who and what he is, than self-loathing(as I see him) in almost every instance that he says that- and especially when he's told that his thoughts and/or feelings are "wrong" about something-Mother Mary the Ice Queen and Jack the Spawn of Satan being the most recent ones, but certainly not the only ones. I said I believed Perez was trying to send a message that Hatchet man was coming after "bad people" because he left Sam and Sam alone. (could they be any more blatant) and Stuart was attacked because he was stealing. I've seen people comparing Dean to Stuart because he had a squirrel on his t-shirt, and saying that was Dean but its good that his self awareness is increasing because Dirk was his nice side that he needed to get in touch with. The whole Jack story wasn't about Dean's grief. It it was it wouldn't have been ignored in the so-called grief ep, which was actually a shaming/blaming ep for Dean. It was about establishing Dean as a bully. Berens can deny all he wants that he doesnt' write Dean as a bully, but the evidence is right there on screen. 5 hours ago, mertensia said: I'm not sure why they're pushing a "Sam must be the leader!" when no one, including apparently Jared, sees Sam in that role. I mean, yeah, I can see Sam 20 years in the future being the head of research and teaching others how to research monsters and ways to kill, etc. But that's different than his going all Hannibal Smith and his classic half-pincer maneuver, which is what the writers seem to want. I mean, duh. Focus on his actual skillsets. Because Dean never possessed leadership abilities. This should have been Sam all along. Dean was just holding him back. Dabb decided that Sam needed to be good at something else. Dean Who? 7 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 November 6, 2018 Share November 6, 2018 5 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said: They're doing worse. They're making him stupid, with his unnecessary and ridiculous monster army plan, bested by a little girl with a spear and a feisty attitude. But Dean? He was just too stupid (saying yes) and too weak to fight once he did. And they had him say those words out loud, read it into canon, with no argument from anyone. That's not interpretation, it happened The evil guys aren't supposed to be smarter than Sam and Dean... But I actually don't think Michael's plan is that stupid myself. Recently angels have become too easy to kill, and everyone and their Auntie Mable has an angel blade to do it with. If Michael can create a host that is almost impossible to kill if powered by angel grace or an actual angel (for the leaders), I actually think that that's a smart plan myself, but that's just me. I agree the Kaia thing is just stupid, in my opinion, but whatever. Hopefully we won't have to see too much of her in the future. (yeah, I know.) As for Dean, I thought Sam made it pretty clear in the last episode that he thought Dean did the right thing, so if Dean was stupid for saying "yes," then Sam would be stupid too since he agreed that it was the right strategy. 2 hours ago, Myrelle said: Not much time. Today is my long work day, but I'll do my best with the twenty or so minutes that I have... Thank you for your answer. I disagree in that I thought that the show made it clear - to me - that at first Dean's judgement was being affected by the mark (and Dean getting physically sick and Crowley telling him he was dying cemented that for me), and then Sam made it clear that he thought that Dean - even affected by the mark - was crucial to their defeating Metatron, and Dean was able to fight through the mark's affects and reason enough to do the right thing, so I didn't see "Dean is wrong" the way you did, but I appreciate your explaining your reasoning. And I compare this to how Sam went off the rails on demon blood, half-killed Dean, and went off half-cocked and convinced he was right. Dean affected by the mark here, in my opinion, was portrayed more judiciously. The mark may have initially made Dean go a bit off-kilter, but it turned out later that his getting out of the room and joining the fight was a good thing, because Dean was still able to reason through it and do what needed to be done... versus Sam on demon blood getting out being a bad thing and Sam not being able to reason through his demon blood affects. Dean's role was crucial to distracting Metatron and assuring his defeat whereas Sam's role was crucial in raising Lucifer. For me the end result has a lot to convey about the message, and for me that message was clear, but I get also where you are coming from. I guess for me, the "you're doing feelings wrong" thing seems less of a ding than "you started an apocalypse," which for me seems like more of a recrimination and "you're wrong" declaration against a character in the end. If the writers think a character is doing something wrongly, it just seems to me that they wouldn't reward that character with positive results and helping to save the world, while a character they think is doing things right, they would have cause an apocalypse. That just seems backward to me. And I guess that's where I'm coming from. 3 hours ago, Myrelle said: Just as, according to the writers, Sam is usually depicted as more of the "big-picture" thinker while Dean usually just goes with his gut on most everything. And yet in the narrative Sam generally chooses wrong according to the writers - in that his actions cause bad results, usually apocalypses - whereas Dean's gut reactions are generally correct and get the job done. With the biggest example being season 4 - Sam's "big picture" thinking lead to Lucifer being raised. I personally think that the writers of the show admire and prize the "go with your gut" tactic more, myself, since that is the one they usually reward. So I don't think having Dean as a go with your gut guy is an insult in the writers' view myself. I personally prefer a "big picture" tactic... which is one of the reasons I prefer Sam, but I don't think that the writers actually do, myself, or at least I don't see much evidence for it. But that's just my opinion on that. Link to comment
Aeryn13 November 6, 2018 Share November 6, 2018 Quote I personally think that the writers of the show admire and prize the "go with your gut" tactic more, myself, since that is the one they usually reward. So I don't think having Dean as a go with your gut guy is an insult in the writers' view myself. I personally prefer a "big picture" tactic... which is one of the reasons I prefer Sam, but I don't think that the writers actually do, myself, or at least I don't see much evidence for it. But that's just my opinion on that. Do the current writers think so? And even if they do, IMO they have turned Sam into both. He comes up with out-of-the-box-thinking and gut solutions as well as big picture planning. He is now brains and brawn as well as the leader. He even gets pop culture trivia knowledge now. Dean has lost his capabilities almost completely it seems. He has become a negative carricature of the character he once was. When he isn`t Sam-obsessed, he is a violent dick and when he isn`t that, he is the stupid comic relief. Meanwhile, Sam has become a carricature as well but of positivity. What flaws does the character still have in the current show? Joining the BMOL didn`t turn out negatively for him. And weak, stupid Dean is the one who unleashed the latest monster, with nary a word that there was big picture context involved. Does anyone honestly believe this will ever turn around or even out again so Dean gets some of his erstwhile positive portrayal back, like ever? Why would they give him? What would motivate the writers to throw a bone to the character or his fans? They can diminish him all they want and everything gets excused away. 6 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 November 6, 2018 Share November 6, 2018 1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said: Joining the BMOL didn`t turn out negatively for him. Well, except for the fact that he ignored all of the warning signs and joined instead of saying "hell, no" and looking into bad stuff that the BMoL might have been doing which, oh, yeah, included brainwashing his mother and turning her into the Manchurian Candidate. If you mean apocalypse-level consequences, then no, for once a Sam mess up didn't lead to something really, really bad. Which I was grateful for myself. I was tired of Sam being a doom magnet and any mistake he made having dire consequences. He was due one pass just out of statistical odds. 1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said: And weak, stupid Dean is the one who unleashed the latest monster, with nary a word that there was big picture context involved. At least he's not hearing about how his "bad choices" lead to all the bad in the world happening ever like Castiel did to Sam almost every opportunity he got in season 5. And nary a word about all of Cas' bad choices... except for one passing mention of what he did to poor Anna, which was glossed over even though it really was awful. I admit that some of Castiel's bad choices happened after he was brainwashed, but not all of them. And that Anna thing really could have been a huge game changer in terms of what happened. I think Sam has been supportive of Dean so far, and Jody has also. Some things Dean is just going to have to work through himself though, I think. I admit things could get better, but we still have a ways to go, so I have hope. Link to comment
gonzosgirrl November 6, 2018 Share November 6, 2018 The saddest thing for me is, even *if* Sam got similar treatment in the past (and IMO he has never been as diminished and disrespected as Dean in the Dabb era and no one will convince me otherwise), the saddest thing is that Dabb will likely see the show to its end, so there will be no coming back from the damage he's done. And that is the taste that will be left in our mouths. He has already ruined Mary, Cas is a joke. Re-watching many of my favorite episodes is tainted by the outrageous ret-conning and just plain disregard for canon. By the time it's over, I will just have to pretend that the series ended with 10x23 and Dean is somewhere in The Empty (or outerspace, lol) and all of this is just my his extended nightmare. 10 Link to comment
Aeryn13 November 6, 2018 Share November 6, 2018 Quote I think Sam has been supportive of Dean so far, and Jody has also. Some things Dean is just going to have to work through himself though, I think. How can he work through the narrative not acknowledging that Lucifer was a real threat? How can he work through being made stupid and inept? That is not something that the character does, that is a message the writers convey about him. I`m not interested in goofy comic relief scenes, I`m not interested in "Dean does feelings wrong" scenes. Or any of that emo stuff. At this point I`d only be interested in "Dean is a smart badass" scenes, only I`m never getting them anymore. If someone acknowledged Dean ever had leadership or leadership abilities, I`d probably die from shock. Quote the saddest thing is that Dabb will likely see the show to its end, so there will be no coming back from the damage he's done. And that is the taste that will be left in our mouths. I agree. By the time it ends we will likely be at "Cletus the slack-jawed yokel" levels while Sam is ruling over Heaven, Hell and Earth. 7 Link to comment
Icarus November 6, 2018 Share November 6, 2018 I was mainly a Dean and brother fan to start with but I liked Sam and it was their dynamic as brothers that drew me in in a large part. Of course the fact that they are both gorgeous and the stories were exciting were great as well. All through the demon blood storyline I got crosser and crosser with Sam but it was good drama and I could yell at the screen and still really enjoy the show, I did feel however as a lot of Dean fans at this time that Dean needed to be part of the show/mytharc more and when they made him Michael's sword that was great. Then came Swan Song which I hated with a passion and have never been able to watch again, not so much for Sam being the Hero but for the writers to write – you are no longer relevant or whatever the actual words were – it was like being doused in cold water. However I do believe that Sam has come off worse in the writing than Dean has. The Amelia storyline was so unbelievable I didn't really believe it until the end of that season. The Benny jealousy was awful and made Sam look like an absolute jackass, the purge speech was just so wrong and I for one disliked Sam (or more the way he was written) for a long time. Dean might have been written badly but IMO he has never been out and out made to be a horrible person. I find it much more preferable when the brothers are on the same page and support each other, I am not so concerned with the minutiae as many are, I just wish we could have some decent strong storylines. Link to comment
belbar November 6, 2018 Share November 6, 2018 1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said: The saddest thing for me is, even *if* Sam got similar treatment in the past (and IMO he has never been as diminished and disrespected as Dean in the Dabb era and no one will convince me otherwise), the saddest thing is that Dabb will likely see the show to its end, so there will be no coming back from the damage he's done. And that is the taste that will be left in our mouths. He has already ruined Mary, Cas is a joke. Re-watching many of my favorite episodes is tainted by the outrageous ret-conning and just plain disregard for canon. By the time it's over, I will just have to pretend that the series ended with 10x23 and Dean is somewhere in The Empty (or outerspace, lol) and all of this is just my his extended nightmare. +1000 to the Whole post. My feelings exactly. Thanks Gonzogirl. 5 Link to comment
juppschmitz November 6, 2018 Share November 6, 2018 1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said: By the time it's over, I will just have to pretend that the series ended with 10x23 and Dean is somewhere in The Empty (or outerspace, lol) and all of this is just my his extended nightmare. Don't put Dean in the Empty. There's an annoying Cas double there. You don't want that for him. 3 Link to comment
gonzosgirrl November 6, 2018 Share November 6, 2018 1 hour ago, juppschmitz said: Don't put Dean in the Empty. There's an annoying Cas double there. You don't want that for him. LOL! Hmmm... *one hand* Annoying eternity with a nasally Cas double *other hand* being written by Dabb & Company Still think he's better off in the Empty. 6 Link to comment
ILoveReading November 7, 2018 Share November 7, 2018 The new promo photos don't give me much hope for this episode. 3 Link to comment
7kstar November 7, 2018 Share November 7, 2018 5 hours ago, Icarus said: I find it much more preferable when the brothers are on the same page and support each other, I am not so concerned with the minutiae as many are, I just wish we could have some decent strong storylines. Oh, are we in agreement. I get why Sam fans are upset, Cas fans are upset, Dean fans are upset so perhaps the whole issue is to get everyone upset so much that suddenly the other characters become welcomed relief to avoid what they are doing to Dean, Sam, and Cas? I don't have a problem with expanding the canvas, but how they are ruining characters I once enjoyed is also a problem. They could tell the story they want to tell but if they sharpened the stories made the characters interactions more meaningful I think it could be interesting. The idea they had for Mary could have been very well received if we cared more about her because she was torn between wanting to know her grown sons, but longing for the time they were so young. It would be making the twists more interesting and keeping what made us love them in the first place if that makes sense. I've always had moments that I didn't like what the writers did with storylines for any show I loved, but this one is getting harder to swallow... Link to comment
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