“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[Katy M]

16 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm not even being snarky here. Given the givens, and that Dean can't undo his choices, do you think Dean deserves to be punished for his actions? And if so, what should that punishment be?

I don't think he needed to be punished because what was done was done.  I don't hate the lecture at the end of The Purge,but not particularly liking that episode as a whole, I didn't memorize and don't remember all the details, so don't quote back to me certain parts:)  I'm just saying that I think Sam had the right to express that Dean was wrong, he would have preferred to die than be possessed and he wouldn't do that exact same thing.   I also think that Sam had the right choose to go his separate way, if that's what he wanted.  with no guilt.  I don't think he should have stuck around and been all pissy.  If he needed more time, that would have been perfectly understandable, IMO. 

So, basically, I guess I'm saying that Dean deserved a lecture and whatever fallout came in regards to his relationship with Sam.

[catrox14]

40 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

It is worth noting that on the two occasions when it came down to a clear "I die or the world dies" scenario - stopping Lucifer and stopping Amara -- Dean and Sam both accepted the other's death. Even Sam using the Book, while risky as all get out, wasn't a case in which he was positive that horrific consequences would be unleashed.

I think what gets blown out of proportion as 'they sacrificed the world for themselves"  is the end of s8.

Dean learned that Sam was going to die when he wasn't supposed to die from the trials and he told Sam that information and Sam eventually agreed to not die. It was never implied they were doing that to save the world from impending immediate doom like with Lucifer or Amara, but I think it gets played that way to support the position that Sam and Dean are selfish asshats when it comes to each other vs the world. JMHO

[companionenvy]

23 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Sam did know because Death told him.  He had time to call off the spell. 

Forgot to address this -- I'm not sure how much time he had. The sequence of events, from Sam's perspective.

1. Dean explains the Darkness and Death's plan to him. At this point, Sam knows that Cas and Rowena are working on the spell. He doesn't know exactly when it will be completed, although he knows it will be soon if all goes well.

2. They argue.  Sam ultimately agrees to let Dean kill him and have Death take Dean someplace where he can't hurt anyone. This would have stopped the release of the Darkness.

3. Dean kills Death, surprising both Death and Sam.

4. Dean and Sam have the following exchange:

DEAN

You okay?

SAM

I'll live.

You?

DEAN

Fantastic.

I think I just killed Death.

5. Dean hears a noise, and lightening crashes through the roof as the mark is removed. 

Sam had pretty much zero time to process what was going on, and didn't realize that he had literally seconds if he wanted to stop the spell. It isn't actually clear to me, as it is filmed, that there would have been time to stop it even had Sam called Cas the instant that Dean killed Death instead of him. 

At the beginning of the episode, Sam specifically addresses the question of risk:

CASTIEL

It's -- it's just if she removes the Mark using "The Book of the Damned"...

What of the consequences?

SAM

Which are what?

CASTIEL

Dean said --

SAM (loudly)

Dean guessed!

(Sam takes a breath and exhales loudly (huffs))

Cas, What are we supposed to do, huh?

Just sit on our asses, do nothing?

CASTIEL

No. We find Dean. (raising his voice)

SAM (loudly)

And then what?!

The only thing that stopped Cain was death.

Do you want to kill Dean? Because I don't.

And the only way I know how to save my brother is to cure the Mark.

And, yes, I know there will be consequences, but not you, not Dean, not anybody can tell me what those consequences are.

So I'm not gonna let my brother d-destroy himself on a guess.

We save Dean.

 

Sam is being irresponsible here. But he isn't saying "I don't care if everyone else dies as long as Dean is safe." He is saying "We don't actually know what or how bad the consequences of the using the Book will be, but we knew that Dean dies/is damned if we do nothing." When he gets actual confirmation that there will be horrific consequences of removing the mark (even then, he doesn't know exactly what "the darkness" means, but as Dean says, something called "the darkness" doesn't bode anything good), he pretty quickly agrees to sacrifice both himself and Dean to stop them. The spell is activated moments after that plan goes kaput. So I don't think it is fair to say that he chooses not to stop the spell once he knows about the Darkness. 

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I don't think he needed to be punished because what was done was done.  I don't hate the lecture at the end of The Purge,but not particularly liking that episode as a whole, I didn't memorize and don't remember all the details, so don't quote back to me certain parts:)  I'm just saying that I think Sam had the right to express that Dean was wrong, he would have preferred to die than be possessed and he wouldn't do that exact same thing.   I also think that Sam had the right choose to go his separate way, if that's what he wanted.  with no guilt.  I don't think he should have stuck around and been all pissy.  If he needed more time, that would have been perfectly understandable, IMO. 

So, basically, I guess I'm saying that Dean deserved a lecture and whatever fallout came in regards to his relationship with Sam.

Fair enough. Thanks for answering.

I kind of figure him being literally demonized because of his decisions was pretty severe penalty.

[Katy M]

12 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think what gets blown out of proportion as 'they sacrificed the world for themselves"  is the end of s8.

I don't even think that's true at all.  What they did at the end of S8 was NOT close the gates of Hell.  Nobody was any better or worse off because of what they had done. They literally changed nothing (except for sewing Abaddon back together but that was earlier). It was Cas and Metatron who caused all the chaos with the falling angels and whatnot.  I'm actually of the opinion, and I've stated this before, that closing the gates of Hell could have been a very, very bad thing.  We don't know if the demons on earth would have been sucked back into Hell or forever locked out.  WE don't know if all dead people bound for Hell would have remained topside becoming vengeful spirits and possibly impossible to get rid of even after burning bones. 

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I kind of figure him being literally demonized because of his decisions was pretty severe penalty.

Well, that was the result of a different decision.  And, that was also his decision.  Sam didn't make him go and take the Mark of Cain just because he was mad at him.

[catrox14]

Just now, companionenvy said:

Forgot to address this -- I'm not sure how much time he had. The sequence of events, from Sam's perspective.

1. Dean explains the Darkness and Death's plan to him. At this point, Sam knows that Cas and Rowena are working on the spell. He doesn't know exactly when it will be completed, although he knows it will be soon if all goes well.

2. They argue.  Sam ultimately agrees to let Dean kill him and have Death take Dean someplace where he can't hurt anyone. This would have stopped the release of the Darkness.

3. Dean kills Death, surprising both Death and Sam.

4. Dean and Sam have the following exchange:

DEAN

You okay?

SAM

I'll live.

You?

DEAN

Fantastic.

I think I just killed Death.

5. Dean hears a noise, and lightening crashes through the roof as the mark is removed. 

Sam had pretty much zero time to process what was going on, and didn't realize that he had literally seconds if he wanted to stop the spell. It isn't actually clear to me, as it is filmed, that there would have been time to stop it even had Sam called Cas the instant that Dean killed Death instead of him. 

At the beginning of the episode, Sam specifically addresses the question of risk:

CASTIEL

It's -- it's just if she removes the Mark using "The Book of the Damned"...

What of the consequences?

SAM

Which are what?

CASTIEL

Dean said --

SAM (loudly)

Dean guessed!

(Sam takes a breath and exhales loudly (huffs))

Cas, What are we supposed to do, huh?

Just sit on our asses, do nothing?

CASTIEL

No. We find Dean. (raising his voice)

SAM (loudly)

And then what?!

The only thing that stopped Cain was death.

Do you want to kill Dean? Because I don't.

And the only way I know how to save my brother is to cure the Mark.

And, yes, I know there will be consequences, but not you, not Dean, not anybody can tell me what those consequences are.

So I'm not gonna let my brother d-destroy himself on a guess.

We save Dean.

 

Sam is being irresponsible here. But he isn't saying "I don't care if everyone else dies as long as Dean is safe." He is saying "We don't actually know what or how bad the consequences of the using the Book will be, but we knew that Dean dies/is damned if we do nothing." When he gets actual confirmation that there will be horrific consequences of removing the mark (even then, he doesn't know exactly what "the darkness" means, but as Dean says, something called "the darkness" doesn't bode anything good), he pretty quickly agrees to sacrifice both himself and Dean to stop them. The spell is activated moments after that plan goes kaput. So I don't think it is fair to say that he chooses not to stop the spell once he knows about the Darkness. 

I think there was a small window for Sam to call off that spell. He did learn before Dean started pounding on him that the Darkness was a thing.

He still could have texted Cas and said "STOP this awful thing is going to be released. Ixnay on the ellspay!" before Dean punched him.   I don't think he was intentionally not stopping it but just didn't accept what was being said to him in a timely fashion.

Just now, Katy M said:

I don't even think that's true at all.  What they did at the end of S8 was NOT close the gates of Hell.  Nobody was any better or worse off because of what they had done. T

That's why I'm saying it gets blown out of proportion.  I'm saying that I have seen that act being referenced pretty often as an example of the boys sacrificing the world for themselves.  I don't think they did in that situation. That's my point.

[Katy M]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That's why I'm saying it gets blown out of proportion.  I'm saying that I have seen that act being referenced pretty often as an example of the boys sacrificing the world for themselves.  I don't think they did in that situation. That's my point.

Sorry, I wasn't arguing with you, I was agreeing with you, and just going on to say that I don't even think it's a even a little true. 

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, Katy M said:

 

Well, that was the result of a different decision.  And, that was also his decision.  Sam didn't make him go and take the Mark of Cain just because he was mad at him.

 I'm not sure what you mean here.

I'm saying that for me Dean being literally demonized is the punishment for everything he did in s9.  It's punishment for him allowing an angel to possess Sam regardless of his intentions. He took off to find Gadreel  and when he couldn't he switched his ire and frustration to Abaddon and Crowley took advantage of that. For me that's what I think was his punishment.

Just now, Katy M said:

Sorry, I wasn't arguing with you, I was agreeing with you, and just going on to say that I don't even think it's a even a little true. 

Gotcha! LOL sometimes things get lost in translation.

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I'm not sure what you mean here.

I'm saying that for me Dean being literally demonized is the punishment for everything he did in s9.  It's punishment for him allowing an angel to possess Sam regardless of his intentions. He took off to find Gadreel  and when he couldn't he switched his ire and frustration to Abaddon and Crowley took advantage of that. For me that's what I think was his punishment.

I think I may have misunderstood.  Maybe I still am.  Being turned into a demon, wasn't a punishment per se.  It was the natural consequences to him taking he mark.  He didn't take the mark because he let an angel into SAm.  In my mind, these are two separate actions. And, Sam didn't decide to get mad at dean so he would go off and make a stupid decision like take a demonic mark.  If that was Dean's reasoning, it's still all on him, and not a punishment for what he did earlier.

[ahrtee]

9 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I don't hate the lecture at the end of The Purge,but not particularly liking that episode as a whole, I didn't memorize and don't remember all the details, so don't quote back to me certain parts:)  I'm just saying that I think Sam had the right to express that Dean was wrong, he would have preferred to die than be possessed and he wouldn't do that exact same thing.   I also think that Sam had the right choose to go his separate way, if that's what he wanted.  with no guilt.  I don't think he should have stuck around and been all pissy.  If he needed more time, that would have been perfectly understandable, IMO. 

So, basically, I guess I'm saying that Dean deserved a lecture and whatever fallout came in regards to his relationship with Sam.

I think they both deserve the right to express their unhappiness/feelings that their brother was wrong, and that includes Dean expressing anger/disappointment with Sam not looking for him in season 8, or drinking demon blood, or wanting to "adopt" Jack.   IMO, it doesn't seem that Dean is allowed to do that without being blamed. 

What IMO Sam doesn't have the right to do is punish Dean.  Express his anger, fine.  If he's that angry, or thinks things are intolerable, leave.  But to stay, while giving conditions that everyone (including Sam) knows would be impossible for Dean,  ignoring him, blaming him for what *Sam* had done (as in, if you'd only ... I wouldn't have...") and, in general, hanging around when he's so unhappy makes it seem like he's there specifically not only to make sure Dean is suffering but to *watch* it, makes it seem as if he's getting pleasure in seeing his brother brought down.  And I don't think that's fair to either of them.

If he's that unhappy, yes, let him leave.  Dean didn't try to "guilt" Sam into staying any of the times he took off, and Sam was always the one to come back, all on his own.  If you think he did it out of guilt, that's his choice alone.   So yeah, let him leave and get over it or not.  But of course, if that were the case, the show would have ended in season 4.

For cryin' out loud, the Winchesters have forgiven (even if not forgotten) all that years ago.  Why can't the fans?  (And for those who are going to say "but they still bring it up," I say, yes, *not* forgotten.  It may always be a sore point and they may be a little more wary in similar situations, but if they hadn't gotten over it, they wouldn't still be working together, even if dysfunctionally, because it's not conducive to a long life to work with a partner you don't feel you can trust.)    

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, ahrtee said:

What IMO Sam doesn't have the right to do is punish Dean.  Express his anger, fine.  If he's that angry, or thinks things are intolerable, leave. 

I never said he did.  In fact I said the opposite.  I said, he shouldn't stay and be all pissy and if he needs more time, he should take the extra time.

 

2 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

If he's that unhappy, yes, let him leave.  Dean didn't try to "guilt" Sam into staying any of the times he took off, and Sam was always the one to come back, all on his own.  If you think he did it out of guilt, that's his choice alone. 

Again, I never said that either. 

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

I think I may have misunderstood.  Maybe I still am.  Being turned into a demon, wasn't a punishment per se.  It was the natural consequences to him taking he mark.  He didn't take the mark because he let an angel into SAm.  In my mind, these are two separate actions. And, Sam didn't decide to get mad at dean so he would go off and make a stupid decision like take a demonic mark.  If that was Dean's reasoning, it's still all on him, and not a punishment for what he did earlier.

  I'm not talking about Sam getting retribution or Sam being angry with Dean.

I think we just have a difference of opinion.

To me, Dean I guess it could be said, got his just desserts in a way if his 'sin' was ignoring Sam's agency and lying to him about it since that is what Crowley did to him.

[Katy M]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

  I'm not talking about Sam getting retribution or Sam being angry with Dean.

I think we just have a difference of opinion.

To me, Dean I guess it could be said, got his just desserts in a way if his 'sin' was ignoring Sam's agency and lying to him about it since that is what Crowley did to him.

I think I'm thinking of it in the perspective of:
 

If you fall asleep smoking a cigarette and your house catches fire and you are terribly disfigured, that's not "punishment".  It's just the natural consequences of your actions.  I always think of punishment as something that is not directly caused your own actions.  IE prison, grounded, fired, silent treatment, forced to run laps around the track, being thrown from a moving train.

[companionenvy]

6 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I think I'm thinking of it in the perspective of:
 

If you fall asleep smoking a cigarette and your house catches fire and you are terribly disfigured, that's not "punishment".  It's just the natural consequences of your actions.  I always think of punishment as something that is not directly caused your own actions.  IE prison, grounded, fired, silent treatment, forced to run laps around the track, being thrown from a moving train.

I think it is potentially different when you're dealing with a work of fiction, though, and you have a writer who can choose what events happen in order to advance a particular narrative or perspective. 

[ahrtee]

17 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I never said he did.  In fact I said the opposite.  I said, he shouldn't stay and be all pissy and if he needs more time, he should take the extra time.

Sorry.  I did see that and it got lost in the rest of the comment.  I wasn't actually  talking there so much about what you said but what I'd seen in other comments.  However, this is what I'm referring to about being made to feel guilty:

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

I also think that Sam had the right choose to go his separate way, if that's what he wanted.  with no guilt.

That, to me, implied that you thought Dean would (or had) tried to stop him from going by making him feel guilty.  IA (as I said), Sam has the right to go his own way. If he was that angry that he felt he had to leave, I don't see how (or why) guilt should enter into it unless someone (ie, Dean) was *trying* to make him feel it.  Sorry if I misunderstood your comment.

[Katy M]

4 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

That, to me, implied that you thought Dean would (or had) tried to stop him from going by making him feel guilty.  IA (as I said), Sam has the right to go his own way. If he was that angry that he felt he had to leave, I don't see how (or why) guilt should enter into it unless someone (ie, Dean) was *trying* to make him feel it.  Sorry if I misunderstood your comment.

No, I was just saying that he didn't need to have any.

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I'm not even being snarky here. Given the givens, and that Dean can't undo his choices, do you think Dean deserves to be punished for his actions? And if so, what should that punishment be?

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I kind of figure him being literally demonized because of his decisions was pretty severe penalty.

My only nitpick here is that I agree with @Katy M that these two things are not directly related.

As for what I think the "punishment" should have been... that's fairly simple. I've referred to it indirectly before. For me, all that had to happen was 1) For Sam to get to address the lying specifically in "The Purge" speech rather than most of that other stuff, and that's because I agree with @Airmid that what the lying did to Sam was not cool. Even though Dean was initially manipulated, he still allowed that to happen without any visible indication that he was trying to get around Gadreel's manipulation, and in some ways was maybe either ignoring or helping Gadreel's manipulation. Dean even went so far as to not notice somehow that "Sam" was leaving the bunker - "a lot" according to Kevin - at strange times, even though Kevin noticed it and told Dean so. At some point during those weeks and weeks, Dean had to know that something was up, and in my opinion he continued to pretend it wasn't happening and lie instead. That lying was not addressed enough as a factor in what happened to Sam, in my opinion and 2) For the narrative to be less wishy-washy on Gadreel. And the way the narrative achieved this was - in my opinion - pretty manipulative and crappy. For me, there was no excuse for the writers to have Sam call Gadreel a "real friend" and say that he thought Gadreel was mostly "misunderstood." What that seemed to do - for me - was to downplay Gadreel getting to remain inside Sam partially due to Dean's deception. It didn't matter so much that - as you said - Gadreel had been a villain up until his turnabout, because he still gets to be called a "real friend," have Sam apparently work with him with no animosity or bad feelings, and pretty much live up to his new "misunderstood" label. And Sam got these insights because Gadreel remained inside him long enough for Sam to learn the "truth" about Gadreel, thus downplaying how long Gadreel remained (for me, anyway). In other words, for me, almost a semi-justification - Good thing Gadreel was inside Sam so long, because now Sam and Castiel know things about him: that Gadreel feels "misunderstood" and he's "not really evil" so maybe he can be turned to their side. I thought that was a bit underhanded, and I felt like I was being manipulated by that whole Sam/Castiel conversation and later Sam turnaround on Gadreel.

That's all I wanted from that. Not any continued "punishing" of Dean, just a direct narrative nod that Dean lying to Sam is also bad. The narrative is generally pretty straightforward about the consequences of Sam lying to Dean, so I don't get why it should be so obscure (recently, post Gamble) - in my opinion - about the other way around. *shrug.*

54 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

To me, Dean I guess it could be said, got his just desserts in a way if his 'sin' was ignoring Sam's agency and lying to him about it since that is what Crowley did to him.

Then for narrative closure, I would've liked a scene tying these two things together. Something along the lines of Dean telling Sam "you know all of this that went down with Crowley and the mark and how he didn't tell me the truth... I get it now. Look, I still don't regret having Gadreel save you, but I should've noticed what it was doing to you and I should've tried harder to warn you about him. That wasn't cool, and I get that now."

That's it. I'm happy. It acknowledges that Dean lying was crappy - despite the unintended good consequences - and that Dean understands now how that feels and that he knows it was crappy.

Edited February 14, 2018 by AwesomO4000

[CluelessDrifter]

36 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

I think it is potentially different when you're dealing with a work of fiction, though, and you have a writer who can choose what events happen in order to advance a particular narrative or perspective. 

I agree.  I actually think that the MoC arc was as much about 'teaching' Sam that what he said in The Purge was wrong, because he would do whatever it took to save Dean, even if Dean didn't want it, as it was about Dean being in Sam's shoes on the flip side.

Edited February 14, 2018 by CluelessDrifter

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from the Spoiler Bitterness thread (no spoilers):

1 hour ago, Castiels Cat said:

I think the Carver seasons stuck with the bold outlines closely. Carver was interested in character arcs and character development.  I think his main focus was exploring the brothers respective fatal flaws and how these have driven the mytharc and how supernatural creatures handle their brushes with humanity. 

I greatly disagree, because I think Carver took the characters backwards a lot to go forwards just a little. In my opinion it wasn't worth any small "progress" made... which in my opinion likely happened due to Dabb taking over more than Carver himself.

Quote

For me Carver very successfully redeemed the character of Sam who had been mired in bad writing that kept him behaving like a teenager and prevented him from acknowledging his mistakes and bad choices.  I blame both Kripke and Gamble for this.  When you gave written your "hero" as the defacto antichrist and disloyal to family you have a huge problem that cannot be overcome by creating a textual antichrist. 

The character has to feel remorse, stone and subsequently dedicate their live to helping others.  SEE the writing for Alex to see how it should be done.

I guess this depends on what's being considered as disloyal. I never found Sam wanting to go to school and break from a dysfunctional family to be disloyal myself. As for Sam's behavior in season 4, I thought he was very much guilty for that, and I didn't need more than season 5 to redeem him myself. How was Sam sacrificing himself to go to hell to stop the apocalypse that he helped to start, not "dedicating his life to [help] others" to fix his mistake? It was literally giving up his life and accepting potentially an eternity in hell as penance. It is also often forgotten / downplayed that the angels - who Dean chose sides with against Sam - also had a huge part in getting the ball rolling in starting the apocalypse.

And for me, Gamble's Sam was both grateful to Dean, showing him gratitude a lot, and apologetic. In my opinion, it wasn't Gamble's Sam who abandoned family (see "The Man Who Knew Too Much" and "Time After Time...")  or hunting or who didn't show remorse ("Unforgiven" and the "TMWKTM" again) - that was Carver's Sam. And during Kripke's tenure, the episode with Jesse, the anti-christ, also showed a remorseful Sam when Sam told Jesse that he had to believe that someone would make the right choice, even when he didn't. Sam also admitted that if he could do it all over he would take it all back... which for me is remorse and understanding your mistakes.

So we entirely disagree on the "bad writing" for Sam. For me, that was Carver writing Sam in season 8.

Quote

 

Carver essentially repeated Sam's fall without the excuse of demon blood, Ruby or the devil made him do it.  He let's Dean down and he unleashes a new Apocalyptic figure onto the world.  In the end he admits wrong, apologizes to Dean, feels guilt and remorse and finally appears to dedicate himself to family and hunting.  For me it was exactly what the character needed, was extremely well done and was a storyline that was announced loudly in the season 8 premiere and concluded when Sam denies Lucifer and announces that he places his trust in Dean.

Yes it was harsh because there was no whitewashing of Sam's actions.  It needed to be done in my opinion.

 

If Sam's only redemption is just admitting he was wrong and he should just listen to Dean no matter what, then for me, that's not really much of a redemption, that's more of a reflection on Dean - i.e. that Sam is only redeemed if he falls in line with Dean and not as a character in his own right. Your miles may vary.

Quote

Not looking for Dean mirrored not wanting to look for John.  He only joined Dean for the long haul when Jessica died.  He joined Dean in the cabin when Amelia was no longer available.

Except for me, the Sam from season 7 was very different from the Sam in season 1. Sam had been entirely with Dean in season 6.5 through 7 (actually starting after learning his lesson in early season 5). He looked for Dean when he disappeared. He admitted that he needed Dean looking after him, and he admitted that he couldn't do this (hunting) without Dean. For me, Carver dragging Sam back to season 1 wasn't a good character arc, it was him ignoring the character progression that came before for a more simplistic message and characterization where Sam's good characteristics and the things that made him different from Dean were downplayed, and only his being sorry and following Dean's lead and being more like Dean than Sam mattered anymore.

Quote

Sam is jealous of the angels which spurs his hubric inclination to prove he is better than Dean.

In my opinion, Sam wasn't "jealous" of the angels in season 4. Sam was all for the angels when he first heard about them... and he was already down his dark path before they showed up. He was critical of the angels when he found out that they were outright dicks and weren't trying to help stop the seals from being broken (which they weren't) and when they were being crappy to Dean - which they were.

Quote

Sam is jealous of Dean's supernatural friends which spurs his need to be the one to save Dean.

In my opinion, Sam's need to save Dean came out of guilt, not jealousy. In my opinion Sam's attitude towards Benny made little sense based on his actions in the past. He'd generally given monsters the benefit of the doubt before and he wasn't jealous of Castiel for saving Dean from hell. So to me his attitude in season 8 made little sense... except for the drama.

Quote

Sam takes his feeling of being an outsider an out on Dean in both storylines as well as Sully.  This also fuels his need to prove himself to Dean in hubric actions.  I thought the Sully episode was brilliant at hammering this.  Under Carver Sam apologizes to Sully and later Dean.

I didn't get that out of that episode. And Sam apologized to Dean as well under Kripke and Gamble. Sam even ended up semi-apologizing to Dean when Dean had been the one who lied to Sam in "The Mentalists."

Quote

Sam ignores Dean does obviously bad stuff, friends die, etc.  Lucifer released.  Darkness released.  Under Carver Sam expresses horror and remorse at the death his choices unleashed leading to character growth and change.

Again for me I also saw this under both Krikpe and Gamble. There are so many examples. And for me, the main remorse happened in season 11 when Dabb was starting to take over.

Quote

Also I will just throw at that it looks,to me,like the brothers are finally switching mytharc roles.  Sam has become the caretaker and Dean appears to be taking over the mytharc racing towards disaster role.  I say this because Sam has been  taking care of Jack and Dean in full on momma bear. 

Dean for the first time ever raced into a selfish decision that could harm the world and risked the life of an innocent and then didn't feel guilty.  This is Sam shades of killing possessed people for power or shrugging of Charlie's death and human sacrifice because it got him what he wanted.

I greatly disagree. No one wants to rehash Gadreel, but for me that situation is the definition of Dean making a selfish decision - to lie to Sam - risking innocent people, and not feeling guilty... or at least not guilty enough to apologize or say that he wouldn't do it again. It could be argued maybe that killing Death was similar, and that was partly due to taking on the mark.

Quote

So for anyone bristling about Sam needing redemption in my opinion rest assured that Dean has gone dark, is going to go darker and be the one needing redemption.

I highly doubt it, because for me season 9 and 10 were entirely set up for that, but - again in my opinion - didn't go there. As long as Sam was humbled and apologized, I guess that was that.

But I could be wrong.

And now I intend to bow out, because no one wants to see me discuss this anymore. Your post just made me want to get it off my chest, so now that I've done that, I'll move on...

[catrox14]

from bitter spoilers.

 

3 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

For me Carver very successfully redeemed the character of Sam who had been mired in bad writing that kept him behaving like a teenager and prevented him from acknowledging his mistakes and bad choices.  I blame both Kripke and Gamble for this.  When you gave written your "hero" as the defacto antichrist and disloyal to family you have a huge problem that cannot be overcome by creating a textual antichrist.  

Wait, what? You think Sam is the anti-Christ figure here? I .....don't see that AT ALL. He was supposed to be the mirror to Lucifer in s5 as Dean was the mirror to Michael. Sam  sacrificed him himself in s5, albeit to fix what he and Dean broke, but he is pretty close to being a Christ figure not the Anti-Christ.  I'm legit baffled at this reading of Sam.

[DeeDee79]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

from bitter spoilers.

 

Wait, what? You think Sam is the anti-Christ figure here? I .....don't see that AT ALL. He was supposed to be the mirror to Lucifer in s5 as Dean was the mirror to Michael. Sam  sacrificed him himself in s5, albeit to fix what he and Dean broke, but he is pretty close to being a Christ figure not the Anti-Christ.  I'm legit baffled at this reading of Sam.

I don't see Sam as an anti-Christ figure either but my interpretation of this part of the comment was in reference to the Boy King chosen status by Azazel storyline that was in the earlier seasons. That's just my assumption since Kripke & Gamble are being referenced as well as the comment of being disloyal to family. Just my opinion; I could be reading it wrong.

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I don't see Sam as an anti-Christ figure either but my interpretation of this part of the comment was in reference to the Boy King chosen status by Azazel storyline that was in the earlier seasons. That's just my assumption since Kripke & Gamble are being referenced as well as the comment of being disloyal to family. Just my opinion; I could be reading it wrong.

I can see the Boy King thing but my point is that he wasn't in the end evil nor the  Anti-Christ though.  Kripke wanted Evil Sam vs Good Dean but in the end that's not what happened.

Edited February 22, 2018 by catrox14

[DeeDee79]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I can see that which is very different than being the Anti-Christ though.  Kripke wanted Evil Sam vs Good Dean but I don't think it was intended to be Lucifer. I mean maybe I'm wrong but in the end that's not what happened.

That's true. Anti-Christ is a stretch from demon blood IMO but we all have our own viewpoints I guess.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, DeeDee79 said:

That's true. Anti-Christ is a stretch from demon blood IMO but we all have our own viewpoints I guess.

Oh I agree, I've just never seen Sam as that. It's a new one  on me. I mean I'm not always in tune with Sam but that one took me by surprise. LOL

[DeeDee79]

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

In my opinion, Sam wasn't "jealous" of the angels in season 4. Sam was all for the angels when he first heard about them... and he was already down his dark path before they showed up. He was critical of the angels when he found out that they were outright dicks and weren't trying to help stop the seals from being broken (which they weren't) and when they were being crappy to Dean - which they were.

I agree with this. Sam was the one with faith in the idea of a higher power and was in awe when he met Castiel. I don't think that he was jealous during season 4; he just seemed disappointed when he realized what they were really like.

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Oh I agree, I've just never seen Sam as that. It's a new one  on me. I mean I'm not always in tune with Sam but that one took me by surprise. LOL

Me too! I'm totally with you here :)

[catrox14]

So. I've been rewatching s13 and  I Dean is largely a plot device this season thus far which is why he's all over the place about Mary. And I think it's mostly from Sam's POV with Jack and Dean.  Once I thought about it that way, this season makes a lot more sense to me. 

[catrox14]

27 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I didn't say it wasn't a good read or unimportant. Sorry if I offended. I wasn't protesting the post, just saying I think the show itself perpetuates some of the Sam is smart, Dean is dumb themes....I think it's more that Dean is less "scholarly" and more street/practical intelligence with a side of "book learnin" and Sam is almost exclusively book smart with a side of weapons knowledge and both can hack computers. I don't think Sam could fix a car if his life depended on it.Just saying that I think fans defend Dean's intellect more than the show does.  I'm saying that I think the show perpetuates a division of intellect between Dean and Sam.

 

24 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I’m not looking to get into a bitch vs jerk style debate about who is better at what. I’m conceding from the start Dean’s the better mechanic. However, werent we shown a few scenes in season 3 where Dean taught Sam about fixing cars? He meant it in preparation for Sam having to do it on his own once Dean was dead. While I’d say Dean would fix a car more efficiently and expertly than Sam. I personally think “Sam couldn’t fix a car to save his life” is a bit of an exaggeration. 

From the Dean thread.

Requoting myself because I changed my comment after you replied. Sam and Dean both have computer smarts up to a point.

I don't think it's implied that Dean taught him beyond basic maintenance like changing a tire, or a spark plug, maybe change the oil. But other than that? Nah, I don't think he would know how to do brakes, or replace a carburetor, or drop a transmission, etc. I don't believe for a minute he himself fixed up the Impala after Meg wrecked it. I know he said "I fixed up the car and just drove" but  I'm willing to wager he paid for it to be fixed before he took off.

He's never been shown on screen since s3 doing anything with the car. In s10, when Cole captured him, Sam didn't notice that the thing on the engine that killed it shouldn't be there.  In s11, when Dean had to go and rescue Cas and fix that truck, Sam just stood there doing nothing but giving him some kind of surprised nod of approval.  OKAY SAM whatever LOL  So yeah, if Sam was stranded in the middle of nowhere and his life did depend on fixing it himself, I think he'd be in a bit of a pickle.  YMMV

[companionenvy]

I don't think Sam has any particular skill with cars, but given their background, I would guess Sam and Dean would both be reasonably handy. Wasn't Sam working as a handyman of some kind during his interlude with Amelia? They are also, of course, both experienced in things like picking locks, basic first aid, improvising from materials at hand, etc. So yeah, I don't think Sam could necessarily restore a totally busted car in the way that Dean could, but I think he'd be able to figure out some slapdash repair and maintenance that could get a car going in a lot of circumstances short of that.

He's certainly able to hotwire a car :)

[Wayward Son]

1 hour ago, companionenvy said:

I don't think Sam has any particular skill with cars, but given their background, I would guess Sam and Dean would both be reasonably handy. Wasn't Sam working as a handyman of some kind during his interlude with Amelia? They are also, of course, both experienced in things like picking locks, basic first aid, improvising from materials at hand, etc. So yeah, I don't think Sam could necessarily restore a totally busted car in the way that Dean could, but I think he'd be able to figure out some slapdash repair and maintenance that could get a car going in a lot of circumstances short of that.

He's certainly able to hotwire a car :)

That’s how I see it. Sam isn’t as good as Dean at car repair but he isn’t totally useless at it either. 

[Pondlass1]

When Dean passed the colt to Sam and asked 'can YOU fix it?' ... that got up my nose.  Dean knows guns. 

Both brothers are presented as having extremely high IQ's. They just have very differing personalities and interests. Sam's the computer geek, not because Dean isn't as smart, but because Dean's an impatient type of guy.  He doesn't sit in front of a screen, he likes action.   Dean seems to possess a 'spidey' sense that's missing from Sam, while Sam is better at lying and is probably the reason they have funds to support hunting.  (I wish I knew their secret in terms of credit card fraud.)

The balance between the brothers has been pretty even for the most part.  They're both flawed and genius at about the same level.  Up until Dabb, anyways.    

Edited February 23, 2018 by Pondlass1

[companionenvy]

21 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

while Sam is better at lying and is probably the reason they have funds to support hunting. 

Nah. John presumably started them on credit card fraud and pool sharking, and relied on it himself. Dean was definitely getting by on fraud while he was on his own. If I recall, Sam even made a couple of judge-y comments about it in S1, although of course he adopted those methods soon enough.

[Pondlass1]

7 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

Dean was definitely getting by on fraud

Oh I agree.  What I meant was that Sam taps away more on the computer than Dean so probably has the responsibility for filling out the credit card applications. 

Apologies also.  I just realised this brawn/brain topic has been extensively discussed in the Dean Winchester thread.  

[DittyDotDot]

18 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

Nah. John presumably started them on credit card fraud and pool sharking, and relied on it himself. Dean was definitely getting by on fraud while he was on his own. If I recall, Sam even made a couple of judge-y comments about it in S1, although of course he adopted those methods soon enough.

I'm guessing they're doing more pool hustling and less credit card fraud these days. Back when the show started it seemed like they were just filling out credit card applications with false names. I think that would be harder to get away with these days and would need to be full-on identity theft at this point to get away with it. I just don't think they have the time to manage that level of fraud. Plus, I don't think they actively try to "fraud" people, but felt like they were taking money from big nameless, faceless corporations with the credit card fraud. Of course, the companies just pass along the loss to their customers, but I think the idea was they weren't hurting anyone with the credit card fraud.

[Pondlass1]

9 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I'm guessing they're doing more pool hustling

You may be correct.  Wish we could see some of those poker games and pool hustling on screen. LOL.  Also, they did find a large stash of gold in the dragon episode.  As a relief from the constant angels and demons drama - an episode featuring the ordinary ins and outs of daily hunting life would be so interesting.

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, Pondlass1 said:

You may be correct.  Wish we could see some of those poker games and pool hustling on screen. LOL.  Also, they did find a large stash of gold in the dragon episode.  As a relief from the constant angels and demons drama - an episode featuring the ordinary ins and outs of daily hunting life would be so interesting.

I'd love a whole episode centered around them going to "work" one day. I mean, going to make the money "work". ;) 

More ordinary day stuff the better, if you ask me.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, companionenvy said:

Nah. John presumably started them on credit card fraud and pool sharking, and relied on it himself. Dean was definitely getting by on fraud while he was on his own. If I recall, Sam even made a couple of judge-y comments about it in S1, although of course he adopted those methods soon enough.

Isn't Sam the one who showed Claire the finer points of credit card fraud in S10 (Angel Heart)?

[Wayward Son]

17 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Isn't Sam the one who showed Claire the finer points of credit card fraud in S10 (Angel Heart)?

He is. That’s why CompanionEnvy made the point of saying despite his initial reservations and judgement Sam quickly adapted to using these methods too. 

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

When Dean passed the colt to Sam and asked 'can YOU fix it?' ... that got up my nose.  Dean knows guns. 

Both brothers are presented as having extremely high IQ's. They just have very differing personalities and interests. Sam's the computer geek, not because Dean isn't as smart, but because Dean's an impatient type of guy.  He doesn't sit in front of a screen, he likes action.   Dean seems to possess a 'spidey' sense that's missing from Sam, while Sam is better at lying and is probably the reason they have funds to support hunting.  (I wish I knew their secret in terms of credit card fraud.)

The balance between the brothers has been pretty even for the most part.  They're both flawed and genius at about the same level.  Up until Dabb, anyways.    

 

Except Dean was taught hacking by Frank which he taught to Sam which really rankled Sam. IMO that is forgotten in the narrative and by much of fandom, specially after Charlie's introduction. Even though Dean downloaded translation app for his phone in s8 when he got out of Purgatory, he was suddenly no longer able or willing to do hacking, The pervasiveness of  "Oh Dean wouldn't want to do that. He would rather be doing the fighting or fixing a car than sitting reading or doing hacking" IMO is excusing bad writing and propping of characters at Dean's expense. IMO,  given that  Dean is theoretically mechanical/engineer minded person wouldn't he logically be the one eager to understand hacking and how a computer works. That would be right up his alley. And s7 Dean did that..until Charlie. And Sam being pissed that he didn't know something Dean knew. That morphs over time to Sam and Charlie bonding over computers and GoT leaving Dean out of that loop.  

Dean might prefer to take action but Dean isn't going to go headlong into a fight if he can do it another way. Dean was more than willing to read all the books minus the Book of the Damned  in s10 when he wanted to get the Mark off his arm. Dean was shown sitting around dozens of books to solve the problem when Sam decided Dean was hiding, which was probably true because Dean didn't want to slaughter other people. Dean was reading in Baby when Sam told him about the visions.  Dean said  Aesop's fables weren't from the Bible, etc etc.  If Dean says he's a reader, then he's a reader and that doesn't mean Busty Asian Beauties and only two Vonnegut books.

But again, my point is how inconsistent it is with Dean's writing and charaterization.   Sam doesn't suffer that same inconsistency in writing his intellectual curiosity.  Only Dean. 

19 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Isn't Sam the one who showed Claire the finer points of credit card fraud in S10 (Angel Heart)?

He surely did.

Edited February 23, 2018 by catrox14

[Wayward Son]

29 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Except Dean was taught hacking by Frank which he taught to Sam which really rankled Sam. IMO that is forgotten in the narrative especially after Charlie's introduction. Even though Dean downloaded translation app for his phone in s8 when he got out of Purgatory, he was suddenly no longer able or willing to do hacking, The pervasiveness of  "Oh Dean wouldn't want to do that. He would rather be doing the fighting or fixing a car than sitting reading or doing hacking" IMO is excusing bad writing and propping of characters at Dean's expense. IMO,  given that a Dean is theoretically mechanical/engineer minded person wouldn't he logically be the one eager to understand hacking and how a computer works. That would be right up his alley. And s7 Dean did that..until Charlie. And Sam being pissed that he didn't know something Dean knew. That morphs over time to Sam and Charlie bonding over computers and GoT leaving Dean out of that loop.  

Dean might prefer to take action but Dean isn't going to go headlong into a fight if he can do it another way. Dean was more than willing to read all the books minus the Book of the Damned  in s10 when he wanted to get the Mark off his arm. Dean was shown sitting around dozens of books to solve the problem when Sam decided Dean was hiding, which was probably true because Dean didn't want to slaughter other people. Dean was reading in Baby when Sam told him about the visions.  Dean said  Aesop's fables weren't from the Bible, etc etc.  If Dean says he's a reader, then he's a reader and that doesn't mean Busty Asian Beauties and only two Vonnegut books.

But again, my point is how inconsistent it is with Dean's writing and charaterization.   Sam doesn't suffer that same inconsistency in writing his intellectual curiosity.  Only Dean. 

So basically you want Dean to have everything. He has to be seen as  Sam’s academic equal and just as capable as Sam in that area AND superior to Sam in all things mechanical/engineering. 

Edited February 23, 2018 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

4 hours ago, companionenvy said:

He's certainly able to hotwire a car :)

Hot wiring older mod cars but he yet he couldn't see that the truck he drove for most of s9 and into s10 had some kind of weird device on it that shut down the engine. He didn't recognize that it shouldn't be there. 

Dean rebuilt his car from scratch twice. More than just body work. He would have to have done the engine, the electrical system, the fuel system etc. Dean is an enginerd. 

[Katy M]

Quote

 

  11 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Dean was kind of mocking Sam for spending hours in a library which came after Sam mocked Dean for making an EMF detector.   To me, that was always about the brothers not understanding each other upon reuniting  vs Dean no longer wanting to read anything, and certainly wasn't because he wasn't a reader. Dean himself has said he's a reader.  He's mentioned things he's read. Vonnegut is not for everyone that's for sure so when Edlund had him say "which Vonnegut" that implies to me that Dean's read more than the show ...shows.   Unless those are the only two books he's ever read, and I don't think that's implied either. 

 

I never said that Dean didn't read at all.  I throw in the Vonnegut as he reads some.  But, I don't think that you can just say Dean is sarcastic as a refutation to what he has said, when he had never been actually shown to be reading a book on the show, and had only shown actual knowledge of Vonnegut and the Oddyssey.
 

Quote

 

11 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

When someone says "I read" that doesn't mean I read occasionally when the mood strikes. But more that he reads for both work and pleasure.  Sam mocking Dean for not reading in s9 IMO was about Sam being passive aggressive with Dean to compete for Charlie's respect.

 

I read could mean different things to different people.  Could mean anything from I read one book once to I read 12 hours a day.  Sam wasn't being passive aggressive.  He was teasing dEan back because Dean had just teased him.

 

Moved over from the Dean thread.

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

So basically you want Dean to have everything. He has to be seen as both academically inclined and capable as Sam AND superior to Sam in all things mechanical/engineering. 

Dean was taught advanced hacking by Frank. Sam was never taught that skill. Dean was taught that skill before Charlie was brought into the show. It's canon. To me the better question is why did Dean have that skill undermined and handed to another character?

The other point is that Dean's background of being self taught ( and I'm sure learning some things from John)  enginerd would seem to fit better with computer hacking.  

 Having intellectual curiosity and reading books on his own isn't the same as Dean being an academic and I wasn't suggesting it. In fact, the academic part never came up until you brought it up. I never said anything about that. However,  Dean does have his GED.

[Wayward Son]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Dean was taught advanced hacking by Frank. Sam was never taught that skill. Dean was taught that skill before Charlie was brought into the show. It's canon. To me the better question is why did Dean have that skill undermined and handed to another character?

The other point is that Dean's background of being self taught ( and I'm sure learning some things from John)  enginerd would seem to fit better with computer hacking.  

 Having intellectual curiosity and reading books on his own isn't the same as Dean being an academic and I wasn't suggesting it. In fact, the academic part never came up until you brought it up. I never said anything about that. However,  Dean does have his GED.

I’d argue that there’s a difference between the skill gained from being taught hacking in a single afternoon to the skill displayed by a full on computer and hacking genius like Charlie. 

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I’d argue that there’s a difference between the skill gained from being taught hacking in a single afternoon to the skill displayed by a full on computer and hacking genius like Charlie. 

That's a good point.  If the argument is that frank taught DEan to hack, then Charlie would be a better hacker if she's been doing it since she was 12.

[catrox14]

Just now, Katy M said:

I read could mean different things to different people.  Could mean anything from I read one book once to I read 12 hours a day.  Sam wasn't being passive aggressive.  He was teasing dEan back because Dean had just teased him.

 

Moved over from the Dean thread.

Those are Dean's words. Not mine. IMO Dean's words and the references in show to what he has read from Busty Asian Beauties to Vonnegut and all manner of supernatural lore books, is that  Dean reads for his own pleasure and for his research and that he enjoys doing both things. 

That said, why shouldn't he share the workload of research with Sam? I have no issues with that part of things. My issues are with how the show chooses to frame it when Dean opts out of research. That he's lazy or some other reasons. It's when the show frames it as Dean being incapable of doing it vs just not wanting to do it.  I would much rather it be that Dean is like "Nah, I'm not in the mood to do the research in this situation. You do it." But it rarely comes across that way these days. 

Like Dean giving the Colt to Sam and asking "Can you fix it"...as though Dean has NO capacity to do nor was it framed as Dean just being lazy and not wanting to do it. It was framed as Sam would be the only person who can fix it.

It's that kind of writing that drives me batty with Dean, and Cas, for that matter.

[Wayward Son]

2 minutes ago, Katy M said:

That's a good point.  If the argument is that frank taught DEan to hack, then Charlie would be a better hacker if she's been doing it since she was 12.

Indeed. IMO expecting Dean to be better at hacking than someone like Charlie from a single afternoon session is like expecting someone to be better hunters than Sam and Dean after a single day. 

[DittyDotDot]

32 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Dean was taught advanced hacking by Frank.

I don't know if I'd call it advanced hacking. Dean said Frank showed him a trick or two on how to back-end into security footage--which Sam happened not to know--but I don't think it can be classified as advanced hacking. It's not like Frank taught Dean how to hack into the Pentagon or something--which I believe Charlie claimed she did at 12. 

I think Sam and Dean have about the same skill level on the "hacking". Generally though, I don't think of either of them as hackers. They both know enough to get into systems with lower level security and get enough information--usually just small time security cam feeds--but I wouldn't expect them to be able to get into any system they ran across. Like Dean said back in S2, they know a little about a lot of things. Just enough to make them dangerous.

Edited February 23, 2018 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I’d argue that there’s a difference between the skill gained from being taught hacking in a single afternoon to the skill displayed by a full on computer and hacking genius like Charlie. 

 

Dean rebuilt a car and made a Walkman into an EMF detector, both requires knowledge of electronics and mechanics. That Dean could learn to hack hardware and software  IMO falls right in line with his already established mechanical/electrical leanings. Frank had hardware and software skills. So other than the show telling us that Charlie was a genius because Dick Roman said she was I don't think she was proven to be better than Frank. Charlie's advantage was that she had inside knowledge from working for Dick, which was more convenient to their goal which was kill Dick Roman and the Leviathans.

That still doesn't explain why Dean had that skill ceded to someone else. And why Sam was so pissed that Dean knew something he didn't.

[Wayward Son]

7 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I don't know if I'd call it advanced hacking. Dean said Frank showed him a trick or two on how to back-end into security footage--which Sam happened not to know--but I don't think it can be classified as advanced hacking. It's not like Frank taught Dean how to hack into the Pentagon or something--which I believe Charlie claimed she did at 12. 

I think Sam and Dean have about the same skill level on the "hacking". Generally though, I don't think of either of them as hackers. They both know enough to get into systems with lower level security and get enough information--usually just small time security cam feeds--but I wouldn't expect them to be able to get into any system they ran across. Like Dean said back in S2, they know a little about a lot of things. Just enough to them dangerous.

Agreed! Sam and Dean both are novices who know a little about it. Charlie was a full on genius at hacking. Hacking for her is what hunting was to Sam and Dean. 

Edited February 23, 2018 by Wayward Son

[Katy M]

13 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Like Dean giving the Colt to Sam and asking "Can you fix it"...as though Dean has NO capacity to do nor was it framed as Dean just being lazy and not wanting to do it. It was framed as Sam would be the only person who can fix it.

Yes, that was rather stupid.  Because, Dean is more the gun one, for one thing. And for another thing, when it comes to manual tasks, Sam is actually quite lazy.  He stood around and watched in Home while Missouri and DEan made hex bags or whatever they were.  He stood around and watched while Dean and Bobby were doing something, although I can't remember when or what.  He was getting a beer while Dean was cleaning guns in Heart.  And he went off ot the library to rescarch while Dean and Travis made flame throwers in Metamorphosis.  Because he'd rather research than do the physical work.  While, I just think Dean is the other way around.  Which works out great.