“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[DittyDotDot]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I guess that depends on how you define 'Blowing it'.

I consider it "blowing it" because, IMO, he regressed the characters back years to get them to fit in his storyline rather than bending the storyline to fit the characters he had. And, in the end, the storylines just didn't work for me because they weren't true to the characters, IMO.

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I think Carver did try to do something original with the show. He took big risks with Sam, Dean, Cas and Crowley and sent them in unexpected directions. Purgatory, The Men of Letters, and the Mark of Cain were all IMO fresh new SL and arcs. Sam not looking for Dean was definitely new. Dean allowing an angel to possess Sam to heal him was both new, in character for Dean because of SSPD, and also incredibly controversial and uncomfortable. Cas and Crowley both had original SL IMO, that were not totally obviously derivative of previous SL from the show. Metatron much to my chagrin was a new thing and I hated but a lot of fans liked him and liked to hate him. I didn't LIKE and hated some of the choices but I can't say they were not original. I didn't like the canon shenanigans.

Personally, I didn't think Caver took risks as much as was a coward in his storytelling. Sure, Carver liked shock value and controversy and to say they were taking risks, but he rarely committed and followed through and actually took risks. To me, Carver was that guy who talks his friends into standing up to the bully on the playground, but abandons his friends and runs to safety when the bully's friends show up. Demon Dean is a perfect example. He sucker-punched us by making Dean a demon, but then ran away and hid behind Fan Fiction in order to avoid actually standing up and committing to that storyline.

If you ask me, Gamble was the one who took a lot of risks and took the characters to unexpected places. Whether you liked it or not, it was a big risk for her to take Cass dark and then kill him before he had a chance to redeem himself. And, an even bigger risk to keep him gone and make us miss him for most the season instead of playing it safe and bringing him back quickly before anyone noticed he was gone. And, IMO, it was a huge risk domesticating Dean and making Sam soulless, which were very unexpected places for both Sam and Dean to go.

Oh, and, Gamble took them to Purgatory, not Carver. Carver got them out of Purgatory, but from what I remember, Carver wasn't keen on Purgatory at all and seemed to begrudge Gamble for saddling him with it.

5 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Cas and Crowley both had original SL IMO, that were not totally obviously derivative of previous SL from the show. Metatron much to my chagrin was a new thing and I hated but a lot of fans liked him and liked to hate him.

TBH, for me, almost all Carver's storylines were derivatives of previous storylines. For instance, the Mark of Cain may have been a new symbol on the show, but in essence, the storyline was Sam's demon blood addiction storyline; Demon Dean was in essence Soulless Sam; not-so-marvy-Marv was essentially heaven's Crowley; and the MoL was basically an upscale version of the Campbell base which was a derivative version of Bobby's house. 

And, while I really enjoyed Cass's human storyline in S9, Cass seemed perpetually doomed to be duped into doing the wrong thing for the right reason only to die and be brought back altered until he wasn't, But Carver didn't start that trend, so I don't hold him entirely responsible on that front. 

I do agree with you Crowley had some new storylines under Carver. In fact, I think Crowley had excellent storylines in S8 and S9; right up until Carver saddled him with mommy issues. It was all downhill for Crowley from there, IMO. 

[ILoveReading]

6 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I consider it "blowing it" because, IMO, he regressed the characters back years to get them to fit in his storyline rather than bending the storyline to fit the characters he had. And, in the end, the storylines just didn't work for me because they weren't true to the characters, IMO.

I find Dabb equally guilty of this.  How many plot points is he bring back that have been dealt with multiple times already.  Lucifer being the most obvious.     From the sounds of it

Spoiler

Dean is being regressed to s7.  Last season we had him saying what they do makes a difference.  Now he's back to "is it worth it."   It sounds Sam is going all the way back to s 1 with the whole you want Jack dead, you must want me dead mentality.   Didn't Dean already prove this to Sam multiple times that he doesn't?

The AU is just essentially purgatory with humans instead of monsters.  Jack sounds like a Benny/Ruby combo, Lucifer again, what sounds like a rehash of the Michael Lucifer fight, a probability of Sam's powers coming back, and a full on literal repeat of s7 for Dean.   The New King of Hell just seems like a Mark S replacement.

Last season The Brits were new, but no one was on the same page with them. 

6 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Personally, I didn't think Caver took risks as much as was a coward in his storytelling. Sure, Carver liked shock value and controversy and to say they were taking risks, but he rarely committed and followed through and actually took risks. To me, Carver was that guy who talks his friends into standing up to the bully on the playground, but abandons his friends and runs to safety when the bully's friends show up. Demon Dean is a perfect example. He sucker-punched us by making Dean a demon, but then ran away and hid behind Fan Fiction in order to avoid actually standing up and committing to that storyline.

I find all showrunners also equally guilty.  With Kripke he took a  chance and sent Dean to hell and made Dean a torturer, but very little follow up was done with it.  Sam going dark was really more Sam being beige.  The phone call, the nurse, Sam attempting to strangle Dean were all controversial and none of it was ever brought up again.  It was just swept under the rug.

Dabb had Dean kill Death in the s10 finale.  That should have been a big deal, but he ran and hid behind Billie.  ( I know Carver was still in charge officially, but as I said I'm one that believes that Dabb was unofficially in charge most of the season.  Because Dabb was at Comic con that year, not Carver.   So I put this one one Dabb. 

Bringing Mary back, was another example.  Rather than actually take a chance and change the dynamic Dabb pushed Mary off screen as soon as possible rather than commit to that storyline. 

I would have liked more Demon Dean, and from an interview (I wish I had the link) it sounded like Carver did too.  He said he originally wanted Demon Dean to be around 6 episodes.  I wonder how much influence Singer had here.  Singer seems to be stuck in the brothers must be attached at the hip mentality. 

With Sera, there was Sams' hallcinations.  She didn't really commit to those.  Because after 11.02 there is no way Sam should have trusted with a gun or as back up on a hunt until he could prove he was stable.  So Sera took a short cut with the hand squeezing. 

I think this is a large problem since Kripke left.  To me, it seems like there is very little communication.  I'm not even sure they read each other's scripts.   There is someone that throws a vague idea, like The Mark of Cain or British Men of Letters and the writers all take it in their own directions.  Souless Sam is a good idea of this.  He changed every single episode.   Same with the Mark of Cain.  Instead of a clear mythology its kept changing to suit a particular writer's whim.  It was obvious no planning was done with it.

Under Dabb there was the Brits.  Their motives kept changing. 

They don't lack ideas what they lack is someone with a clear vision to be able to execute those ideas.  Which goes back for me, of SPN having someone in charge but not really having a leader. 

All my opinion, of course.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

hey don't lack ideas what they lack is someone with a clear vision to be able to execute those ideas.  Which goes back for me, of SPN having someone in charge but not really having a leader. 

That's why I wonder if fan feedback midway into the season affects the writing.

I read somewhere, that I can't remember now, that even if there are staff writers the showrunner is the one writing the series because they are the head writer as well, typically, in a general industry way of doing things.  And in some cases they may  write the bulk of a script that bears another writer's name. Maybe this is what happens with SPN. I dunno

Jensen, at PittCon explained that the writers make the first draft, then it gets an edit from the producers, then reworked and sent to the network for their notes before it becomes the production script. So I wonder with a new showrunner like Sera or Carver or Dabb, how much the network made a difference in their first seasons of showrunning.  IMO s6 still had Kripke's fingers but since he was leaving maybe the network was a bit more involved. I dunno.

Maybe that's why s8 was so different between the 1st half and the 2nd half. I thought s9 and s10, were more coherent with the MoC SL. I didn't feel like there was a huge shift like there was in s8.  IMO s11 was all over the place with the Darkness, which I would like to know who's idea that really was. Was it Carver's or Dabb's or someone else who isn't talking? LOL 

Which brings me back to Bob Singer. The one EP who's been here throughout.  He's in L.A. with the writers not up in Vancouver all the time unless he goes up to direct an episode. How much creative control does Jim Michaels have. He's the EP in Vancouver.  Maybe Singer has been the man behind the curtain and all the other showrunners are just the fall guys for him? He seems to be able to avoid most of the criticism that gets leveled at the showrunners. Maybe the showrunners as head writers have the germ of an idea for the next season but it's really Singer who has the most creative control in the end for better or worse.

[DittyDotDot]

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I find all showrunners also equally guilty.

Oh, I'm not suggesting other showrunners not guilty of some of the same things and, in fact, I think Dabb is actually worse than Carver on follow-through, I was just responding to comments made about Carver taking risks--which, IMO, I think he played it safe, more often than not, but liked to think of himself as a risk taker so would make it look like he took a leap off a building, but in reality he had a net and a harness and a pad all set up to ensure there was no real risk.

Anyway, personally, I think they all made mistakes and all had successes at times; that's why I said the question was hard to answer. I'm not someone who watches the show for only one character, so I find I have less problems with any one showrunner than most do, but most of it just comes down to personal tastes for me. Why I put Carver lowest on my list was due to tone and that I personally found the guy off-putting, but I don't think he ran the show all that much differently than Kripke did. The same writing and pacing problems were there under Kripke, we just were distracted by the newness of it all and didn't notice them as much, IMO.

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I would have liked more Demon Dean, and from an interview (I wish I had the link) it sounded like Carver did too.  He said he originally wanted Demon Dean to be around 6 episodes.  I wonder how much influence Singer had here.  Singer seems to be stuck in the brothers must be attached at the hip mentality. 

Well, he said he wanted Demon Dean to last longer than it did, but they couldn't do it because of Fan Fiction. Since it was Carver's decision to do Fan Fiction--and, I believe it was his pitch to begin with--it seems to me if he wanted Demon Dean around more there was a hundred different ways they could've done Fan Fiction to accommodate that. Or, here's a crazy idea, just realize Fan Fiction didn't fit in with the show's narrative right then and set it aside for later when it would. I mean, I love the episode and think it's one of the highlights of the season, but I would've loved it no matter when they did it. So, IMO, that was just an excuse he started to spout when fans got pissy after realizing, even before the season started, that Demon Dean was going to be gone by episode five if not much earlier.

One thing I give Kripke credit for, he generally just owned up to stuff and didn't try to act like it wasn't him who made the decision. With Carver, it always felt like he never took responsibility for his own decisions when the fans got angry. Which, again, is just personal off-putting thing and not really about the show itself.

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

With Sera, there was Sams' hallcinations.  She didn't really commit to those.  Because after 11.02 there is no way Sam should have trusted with a gun or as back up on a hunt until he could prove he was stable.  So Sera took a short cut with the hand squeezing. 

See, I think Gamble was fully committed to Sam's hallucinations, maybe too much even .They didn't disappear after 7.02, but carried through most of the season and had impact on almost every episode until they took them away. Dean especially was wary of Sam's judgement due to them--that was the reason for the Amy angst to begin with--but after losing Cass and his Baby and then Bobby, Dean's mindset was, what difference did it make if Sam got them killed on a hunt, they were doomed anyway. Which, I'll say again, I think it would've been more interesting and tied to Dean's mental state better if Bobby hadn't in fact been haunting them, but Dean just thought he was.

Anyway, personally, I didn't care for the resolution of the hallucinations nor did I think they made a lot of sense, but I think they committed to the storyline and followed it through.

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

IMO s11 was all over the place with the Darkness, which I would like to know who's idea that really was. Was it Carver's or Dabb's or someone else who isn't talking? LOL

I wouldn't be surprised if it was Dabb's idea. It sounds like a lot of their big mythology ideas over the years have come from Dabb. I'd say it was probably a few different people's influence on what it became in the end, though. I'd say the big idea of the Darkness being opposite God and her being born into the world as a baby sounds like Dabb--he seems to have these big ideas, but doesn't seem to always find a way to ground the idea with the characters. But her being literally God's sister sounds like Carver to me as do the questions of what does the Darkness want and is she actually evil. The ambiguous tie to Dean feels like Singer to me. So, I don't think there is one person we can put the blame on for it being all over the place. 

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I read somewhere, that I can't remember now, that even if there are staff writers the showrunner is the one writing the series because they are the head writer as well, typically, in a general industry way of doing things.  And in some cases they may  write the bulk of a script that bears another writer's name. Maybe this is what happens with SPN. I dunno

I think this was how the show ran more under Kripke. He had a clear vision of the story he was telling and what he wanted the show to be. I'm thinking that's not the case anymore since the writer's own voices seem to bleed through more and more over the years. I do think Gamble, and to a lesser extent Dabb, were more "controlling" of the scripts than Carver was though. It seems to me Carver wasn't all that concerned with the little details as much as the overall journey while Gamble and Dabb seem to get caught up in some of the details more. 

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

They don't lack ideas what they lack is someone with a clear vision to be able to execute those ideas.  Which goes back for me, of SPN having someone in charge but not really having a leader. 

Oh, I agree. I've been flogging this poor dead horse for years now.

Edited September 17, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

It seems to me Carver wasn't all that concerned with the little details as much as the overall journey while Gamble and Dabb seem to get caught up in some of the details more. 

Maybe that's why I thought Carver's MOC stuff was more coherent as an arc but was not fleshed out as much as I would have liked. But then I think Jensen filled in a lot of the details of Dean with his performance or at least as I interpreted it. I guess with Carver he gave them more artistic freedom as long as all the arcs met in the end. I wonder how much Buck Lemming influenced  Singer and Carver since they started writing more episodes under Carver than before.

[DittyDotDot]

23 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I wonder how much Buck Lemming influenced  Singer and Carver since they started writing more episodes under Carver than before.

I don't know, it's hard to say. Clearly Carver gave them a much longer leash to roam on, but whether that was because he trusted them or whether he was instructed to let them be is anyone's guess. 

28 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Maybe that's why I thought Carver's MOC stuff was more coherent as an arc but was not fleshed out as much as I would have liked. But then I think Jensen filled in a lot of the details of Dean with his performance or at least as I interpreted it. I guess with Carver he gave them more artistic freedom as long as all the arcs met in the end.

I don't know that Carver gave them more artistic freedom exactly, but he didn't seem to micromanage the details as much--which, as I said has it's upside and downside. But, I think it's why S8-S10 are hard for me to binge watch. It gives me whiplash from episode to episode if I don't take regular breaks. I don't have that issue with S1-S5 or S6-S7. 

I haven't rewatched S11 or S12 yet, so I don't know how that compares with the Dabb seasons, but I suspect S11-S12 are probably better binged than strung out over a 9 months. There were some huge pacing issues with S12 especially that probably won't seem as egregious when binging straight though as it was watching in real time. 

[catrox14]

For me the MoC arc held up well enough in the sense that I think it had a defined beginning, and end. It was incomplete on details and I thought the end of it sucked but I think it had a good base, but I guess this viewer was starved for a Dean mytharc so I took what scraps I could get and I'll enjoy the little meat on that bone.  Just my opinion on that. Others will disagree.

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Dabb had Dean kill Death in the s10 finale.  That should have been a big deal, but he ran and hid behind Billie.  ( I know Carver was still in charge officially, but as I said I'm one that believes that Dabb was unofficially in charge most of the season.  Because Dabb was at Comic con that year, not Carver.   So I put this one one Dabb. 

Except that Carver wrote both of the main episodes dealing with this - the season 10 finale and the season 11 opener , so Carver set up Dean killing Death and that the aftermath was Billie's threats while Sam's actions caused an apocalypse. For me, it was a trend in that Carver liked to set Dean up as going dark or doing risky things, but then not have a whole lot of consequences for that. It was similar with what happened with the mark of Cain and Gadreel arcs. DittyDotDot described it well as Carver playing like he was taking a big leap, but then actually having all sorts of safety nets... so no consequences for Dean killing Death to me has Carver's influence all over it.

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Maybe that's why s8 was so different between the 1st half and the 2nd half. I thought s9 and s10, were more coherent with the MoC SL. I didn't feel like there was a huge shift like there was in s8. 

I agree with you on season 10 being more consistent than season 8, but I thought that season 9 had a pretty large shift in tone and arc similar to season 8. Dean didn't get the mark of Cain until episode 11 - close to mid season - so that in itself was a large shift already. But the Gadreel arc - which did span the entire season - in my opinion had a huge shift starting midseason also. The first half of the season seemed to be setting up Gadreel as a bad guy, with him doing obviously awful things in the guise of being duped, and showing the effect this had on Sam and his mental state. The point of view seemed to be a lot with Sam and what he was going through.  But the second half of the season shifted more towards Dean's point of view. Instead we followed  Dean when it came to arguments concerning Gadreel and we followed the effects that the mark of Cain was having on Dean. Sam's issues with Gadreel were shifted to being more Sam issues ("I was ready to die") rather than what Gadreel actually did to Sam (which was a lot) while Gadreel was all of a sudden misunderstood and being manipulated instead of being a bad guy.

For me it was another example of Carver pretending to take risks - in this case having Dean take the controversial step of aiding Gadreel's possession of Sam - but then not really following through with that risk, because in the end Gadreel wasn't a bad guy after all... he was just mislead and misunderstood and even redeemable. Where were the world shaking consequences of trusting a powerful being with possessing his brother's body? Well, there weren't any, unless you count the positive effect of Gadreel helping to stop the apocalypse that is.

In my opinion, it's not very risky to have Dean aid in Sam's possession if the end result is that well, he's not actually that bad an angel after all and in fact helps to stop the actual bad guy. Risky, in my opinion would have been having Metatron be the angel to use subterfuge to possess Sam. Now we're talking risky... first in how to present that as not being cliche, and second because there would be actual negative consequences to Dean's actions beyond losing Kevin - sort of, since we got him back as a ghost - and Dean getting bitched at by Sam for a few episodes until Sam saw the light.

So for me season 9 was very much like season 8 in that I could feel a definite shift in tone and focus half way through. And very much like season 8, I preferred one half of the season more that the other, but the half that I didn't enjoy much kind of ruined that half I preferred anyway. You can probably guess which half of season 9 I preferred.

[gonzosgirrl]

On 9/16/2017 at 0:11 AM, Casseiopeia said:

 I think they knew shortly after S11 started that Frequency was going to be picked up and Dabb was going to be the new show runner.  If Dabb doesn't make a miraculous turnaround in S13 I think he will go down as the showrunner that "wrecked the Lamborghini".  That being said he was also saddled with THEM writing 5 episodes for S12.  Not even Kripke could have overcome that!

I don't think he can redeem himself (for me, of course) and I do believe he'll be the death of the show if they continue on his course. And if he was responsible for hiring and keeping Perez, then a double pox on him. I'd rather THEM write the whole season than watch another Perez episode.

[Mick Lady]

23 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I actually agree with you here. In my explanation above I should have explained that it wasn't Carver's storyline's that I found to be expected, but their outcome. And I think that for me that was part of the the problem. The other was that Carver seemed to have interesting ideas, but for me the follow up / conclusion didn't bear that out and / or instead ended up as the status quo. For example, it wasn't necessarily Sam having a girlfriend that annoyed me... it was that she was not a good character and the storyline was bad: a dead husband who actually wasn't dead is more something I'd expect in a soap opera. But I guess I should be happy there wasn't a pregnancy, because I was really worried for a bit that that was going to happen. I also didn't appreciate Carver trying to retcon Sam's previous normal life experience and retconing his love of Jessica in the process either. That was unexpected in a bad way in that it was trying to change show history.

Also I agree that Sam not looking for Dean was unexpected, and that actually would have been okay... had Carver not made Sam appear annoyed that Dean was back and had him also abandon Kevin - which in my opinion was not cool and also didn't really service the idea that Sam was making a considered, mature decision not to look for Dean, but was more looking like Sam freaked out and ran away from everything. And things like having Sam act jealous of Benny and projecting his guilt also more looked like that (i.e. Sam running) rather than Sam deciding to stop the cycle (or however Carver tried to put it). And by the end of the season Carver had Sam guilty and suicidal for not looking for Dean (i.e. Sam was wrong for doing what he did)... so out the window went the follow through with the "mature" decision... so back to same old, same old. I knew Benny was good from the beginning, so nothing unexpected there... and of course Dean had to give Benny up because of (mean) Sam. So again, expected.

The Gadreel story did start out as controversial and uncomfortable... and I actually thought it had really interesting potential... but of course Gadreel was redeemed and Dean's decision was mostly justified in that Sam would also do the same thing in the end, so again the original storyline idea was fizzled into something expected. Instead of Sam bringing up the fact that Dean lied to him and the lengths Dean went to keep Gadreel in Sam, it was turned into "you didn't let me die" which once Sam wouldn't let Dean die either and Gadreel was "good"... pretty much sugar coated everything, so the controversial and uncomfortable was - in my opinion - thrown out the window in lieu of well, this is just what the brothers do for one another, because see Sam does it too once faced with the reality of losing Dean. Awww if only Sam had realized this sooner. At which point it was lucky I wasn't holding something substantial, because I would have thrown it at the television.

I have mixed feelings about Castiel's storyline. It was somewhat different, but I'm not sure it was good. And Castiel trying to do the right thing, but instead messing up was in the end kind of a retread of his season 6 storyline... but even more so, because at least in season 6, Castiel was facing a difficult situation and his initial choices made some sense in that regard.

Despite all of this, I can say that I enjoyed much of season 10... actually most of it. It was just that the ending was somewhat expected, because of course Sam started an apocalypse. They'd been leading up to and telling us all season that bad things would happen, so again that outcome was not unexpected there at all.

Guilty. Metatron grew on me, until I loved to hate him. And I think Curtis Armstrong did a terrific job playing him.

It was Naomi that I never warmed to. I just never learned enough about her motivations to care about her. She was more annoying. I kept thinking "but why? Why is she doing this to Castiel. What the hell does she even want?" At least I got Metatron. He was a jerk, but I got him.

Oh Chuck! I could have posted this, but it wouldn't be as eloquent. Thank you for posting my thoughts!

[ILoveReading]

I see Andrew "Dean Who" Dabb hasn't changed. 

[Wayward Son]

Season 13 spoilers since we've been advised to post Bitch vs Jerk reactions in here. 

 

Spoiler

I will be so pissed if Dean giving up on Mary is brushed off and not addressed properly upon her return i.e. he is called out on it. Considering the fact Dean made such a big drama of Sam "abandoning" him between season 7 and 8 and Sam had a lot less reason to believe Dean was alive. At least in Sam's case the last thing he saw was Dean and  Cas caught in an explosion after they killed a bad guy. His fate was questionable. Dean quite clearly saw Mary was  alive when she went through the portal.

 

Although, I'm fully expecting the show to do it's usual hand waving away of Dean's crappy actions. 

Edited September 22, 2017 by Wayward Son

[ILoveReading]

14 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Season 13 spoilers since we've been advised to post Bitch vs Jerk reactions in here. 

 

  Hide contents

I will be so pissed if Dean giving up on Mary is brushed off and not addressed properly upon her return i.e. he is called out on it. Considering the fact Dean made such a big drama of Sam "abandoning" him between season 7 and 8 and Sam had a lot less reason to believe Dean was alive. At least in Sam's case the last thing he saw was Dean and  Cas caught in an explosion after they killed a bad guy. His fate was questionable. Dean quite clearly saw Mary was  alive when she went through the portal.

 

Although, I'm fully expecting the show to do it's usual hand waving away of Dean's shitty actions. 

Spoiler

This just seems another way to teach Dean a lesson about mean and hard on Sam he is.  I fully expect him to be made to apologize to Mary, and then to apologize to Sam for being mean and not more understanding.  I see this as just another way to white wash Sam's shitty treatment of Dean in s8.  It took 3 years and the being guilted by Lucifer before Sam apologized.

I personally want the show to treat Dean exactly like it did Sam and label him as mature.  I hope Mary is sympathetic and not to hard on him and she really needs to get told to appreciate Dean more, just like Garth lectured Dean.

But it just seems another double standard to me.  With Sam, Dean was just being to hard on Sam because Sam was alone and at the end of his rope and he was sad.  Why is that never an appropriate excuse for Dean? 

Edited September 22, 2017 by ILoveReading

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Season 13 spoilers since we've been advised to post Bitch vs Jerk reactions in here. 

 

  Hide contents

I will be so pissed if Dean giving up on Mary is brushed off and not addressed properly upon her return i.e. he is called out on it. Considering the fact Dean made such a big drama of Sam "abandoning" him between season 7 and 8 and Sam had a lot less reason to believe Dean was alive. At least in Sam's case the last thing he saw was Dean and  Cas caught in an explosion after they killed a bad guy. His fate was questionable. Dean quite clearly saw Mary was  alive when she went through the portal.

 

Although, I'm fully expecting the show to do it's usual hand waving away of Dean's crappy actions. 

Spoiler

 I'm 100% certain Sam will lecture Dean on how he gave up and he shouldn't, which was already seen in the promo with Sam telling Dean they'll find a way. Your wish is already in the promo. And I'm sure he'll be reminded frequently of how wrong he was to give up. Not sure how much you want him to be raked over the coals, but you'll at least get that :)

[Wayward Son]

5 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

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I personally want the show to treat Dean exactly like it did Sam and label him as mature.  I hope Mary is sympathetic and not to hard on him and she really needs to get told to appreciate Dean more, just like Garth lectured Dean.

But it just seems another double standard to me.  With Sam, Dean was just being to hard on Sam because Sam was alone and at the end of his rope and he was sad.  Why is that never an appropriate excuse for Dean? 

Spoiler

 

And Mary being sympathetic and brushing it off is the last thing I want since Dean was as far away from sympathetic towards Sam as possible in S8. Since Dean was all too happy to lash out at Sam for abandoning him then he too should be lashed out at for abandoning Mary with far less reason to even consider doing so. 

 

As for the double standard, I'm not bothered if fans view Dean in a sympathetic light. I just don't want the other characters to brush off his actions when he refused to show any sympathy towards Sam in S8. IMO that would be the double standard.

 

[catrox14]

@Wayward Son Sorry I don' tknow why this didn't quote with the spoiler tag. Weird. Sorry

Spoiler

 

11 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

And Mary being sympathetic and brushing it off is the last thing I want since Dean was as far away from sympathetic towards Sam as possible in S8. Since Dean was all too happy to lash out at Sam for abandoning him then he too should be lashed out at for abandoning Mary with far less reason to even consider doing so. 

 

 

 

 

 

Spoiler

IMO, Sam acted like Dean returning from Purgatory was nothing but an interference with his new life. Sam had little understanding nor sympathy for Dean's plight in Purgatory because he was pissed that Dean allied with a vampire to survive, which is especially strange for a guy that was supposed to be empathetic and kind. He basically scolded Dean for being on edge like 2 days after he got back. So I dunno that Sam has much room to really criticize Dean at all on this point, beyond the "We can't give up" . I think him going beyond that puts Sam in a position, that IMO, they are trying to rehab.

Edited September 22, 2017 by catrox14

[ILoveReading]

10 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

And Mary being sympathetic and brushing it off is the last thing I want since Dean was as far away from sympathetic towards Sam as possible in S8. Since Dean was all too happy to lash out at Sam for abandoning him then he too should be lashed out at for abandoning Mary with far less reason to even consider doing so. 

 

As for the double standard, I'm not bothered if fans view Dean in a sympathetic light. I just don't want the other characters to brush off his actions when he refused to show any sympathy towards Sam in S8. IMO that would be the double standard.

 

Spoiler

I'm sure Sam not looking hurt Dean but I think what hurt Dean worse was that Sam acted like he wished Dean never came back, so I really have no sympathy for Sam and how Dean treated him.  I think he got off light.   If Dean treats Mary like she ruined his life by coming back then I'll agree with you.

As for Sam having more reason to think Dean was dead, I disagree because he specifically says to Crowley  "Where are they."  So he seems to think they were alive when they vanished initially.  What changed? Also the explosion was just black goop.  Not an ounce of blood or human goop anywhere and humans are messy when they explode.  Plus, Dean disappeared with an angel.  And he's good at overcoming impossible odds. 

Mary disappeared into a world where humans are all but extinct, and angels seem to hunt them.  Plus she's with Lucifer.  It would seem that Dean would have equal reasons to think that Mary wouldn't survive any more that Sam would think Dean would. 

But I don't like this either way.  Because it just seems like another way to throw Dean under the bus. 

Edited September 22, 2017 by ILoveReading

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

I see this as just another way to white wash Sam's shitty treatment of Dean in s8.  It took 3 years and the being guilted by Lucifer before Sam apologized.

I saw only a little bit of whitewashing myself if at all. There was an admonishment from Bobby for not looking for Dean and a few narrative "hah hah Sam was a jerk" references to "Sam hit a dog" over a few seasons afterwards, and at least there was an apology from Sam. For me the real whitewashing was for Dean in seasons 9 and 10.

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

But it just seems another double standard to me.  With Sam, Dean was just being to hard on Sam because Sam was alone and at the end of his rope and he was sad.  Why is that never an appropriate excuse for Dean? 

Maybe it isn't an excuse for Dean in the same way, but it was an excuse for Dean in making the deal and in the Gadreel situation and even recklessly taking on the mark of Cain. Dean was pretty much excused of all of those things because of his grief and being at the end of his rope. I don't really see it as all that different myself.

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

As for Sam having more reason to think Dean was dead, I disagree because he specifically says to Crowley  "Where are they."  So he seems to think they were alive when they vanished initially.  What changed?

In my opinion, what changed was Carver deciding to throw Sam's character under the bus for plot and angst reasons, since when Dean disappeared in "Time After Time..." with much less to go on, Sam worked until he found Dean and got him back, just like he had multiple times before. What annoyed me most was that Carver included abandoning Kevin - not cool - and then never gave Sam even one sentence of something like "I looked, but couldn't find anything that wouldn't use dark magic and maybe have bad consequences, and I just couldn't do that again." There. Sam's character given a break. But Carver I guess felt trashing Sam and then having him learn a lesson about it later was a better idea.

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Spoiler

I'm 100% certain Sam will lecture Dean on how he gave up and he shouldn't, which was already seen in the promo with Sam telling Dean they'll find a way. Your wish is already in the promo. And I'm sure he'll be reminded frequently of how wrong he was to give up.

 

Spoiler

 

My prediction is that Dean will have a point in that I suspect that looking for Mary will cause cosmic consequences in opening a rift to the alternate dimension somehow, so that looking for Mary will be the wrong thing to do, and Sam will be wrong for doing so. It might even cause apocalyptic consequences - which will then be Sam's fault. Maybe Dean will have to heroically fix things for him again.

Basically I'm saying that since Sam is on the pro looking for Mary side, in my opinion, that greatly increases the chances of that being the wrong strategy... since that appears to be how the show rolls now whether it makes sense or not... Sam all of a sudden being "yay, I'll sign up to work for the BMoL... who cares that they tortured me and they totally screwed up that vampire raid and said they intended to exterminate all monsters (Garth who?), they've got cool weapons, so I'm in!!!" being the latest example.

 

[catrox14]

19 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

But Carver I guess felt trashing Sam and then having him learn a lesson about it later was a better idea.

But Dabb rehabbed him in s11. IMO, that rehab is continuing into s13

20 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I saw only a little bit of whitewashing myself if at all. There was an admonishment from Bobby for not looking for Dean and a few narrative "hah hah Sam was a jerk" references to "Sam hit a dog" over a few seasons afterwards, and at least there was an apology from Sam. For me the real whitewashing was for Dean in seasons 9 and 10.

When did Bobby say that? Bobby was dead by the time that happened.

[AwesomO4000]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

When did Bobby say that? Bobby was dead by the time that happened.

"Taxi Driver" when Sam got Bobby out of hell.

[catrox14]

IMO, Sam never actually apologized. He never said "I'm sorry". He said he should have "looked more" or something like that and he said he never forgave himself for not looking more, but he never said "I'm sorry". At least, not that I remember. And since he never said "I'm sorry" IMO, he was trying to free himself of his own guilt on that. That said, I think Dabb treated that as a quasi-apology since Dean told him it was forgotten. But that still bugs me.

4 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

"Taxi Driver" when Sam got Bobby out of hell.

Ahhh thank you.

[AwesomO4000]

24 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

IMO, Sam never actually apologized. He never said "I'm sorry". He said he should have "looked more" or something like that and he said he never forgave himself for not looking more, but he never said "I'm sorry". At least, not that I remember. And since he never said "I'm sorry" IMO, he was trying to free himself of his own guilt on that. That said, I think Dabb treated that as a quasi-apology since Dean told him it was forgotten. But that still bugs me.

Well, a semi-apology is better than none, I say. At least Sam admitted he was wrong. It just bugs me that Sam is usually the one to be set up in the position of having to be wrong and admit as such in some form or another... sometimes even in situations when he should be the one getting the apology - like season 9 - but nope. Instead Sam's set up as wrong again (because of that horrid "The Purge" speech) and again has to admit that he was wrong with "I lied." There was also "Mother's Little Helper" - more Sam admitting Dean was right (so by extension Sam was wrong.)

And as another part of that, having Sam call Gadreel a "real friend" in my opinion was just insulting. An ally maybe, okay, but a "friend?" In my opinion, that's on the level of if the writers had Dean call Ruby a "friend" or, later, Metatron a "friend." Just no. But Sam has to be shown as wrong on a level that even someone who tormented him mentally for months and killed Kevin in his body has to somehow now be twisted into being called a "real friend." In my opinion, that's just messed up.

Edited September 22, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[gonzosgirrl]

14 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

And Mary being sympathetic and brushing it off is the last thing I want since Dean was as far away from sympathetic towards Sam as possible in S8. Since Dean was all too happy to lash out at Sam for abandoning him then he too should be lashed out at for abandoning Mary with far less reason to even consider doing so. 

 

As for the double standard, I'm not bothered if fans view Dean in a sympathetic light. I just don't want the other characters to brush off his actions when he refused to show any sympathy towards Sam in S8. IMO that would be the double standard.

 

 

14 hours ago, catrox14 said:

  Hide contents

 I'm 100% certain Sam will lecture Dean on how he gave up and he shouldn't, which was already seen in the promo with Sam telling Dean they'll find a way. Your wish is already in the promo. And I'm sure he'll be reminded frequently of how wrong he was to give up. Not sure how much you want him to be raked over the coals, but you'll at least get that :)

Considering Dean spent the better part of S12 being lectured about, and apologizing for, (in actions if not always in words) his feelings toward Mary, I have no doubt that will continue this season.

And yeah, Sam didn't just give up on Dean, he made it pretty clear he resented him being back at all. Not really the same thing.

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And yeah, Sam didn't just give up on Dean, he made it pretty clear he resented him being back at all. Not really the same thing

He couldn't have made it all that clear. I never got that impression.  If he resented him that much for being back, why wouldn't he have just left? Or shoot him?

[gonzosgirrl]

16 minutes ago, Katy M said:

He couldn't have made it all that clear. I never got that impression.  If he resented him that much for being back, why wouldn't he have just left? Or shoot him?

Okay, it was pretty clear *to me*. There's a pretty big gap between 'I was happy to be out of hunting and now you've guilted me into looking for Kevin again' and 'ugh, I want to shoot you in the face.'

[auntvi]

13 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Spoiler

Basically I'm saying that since Sam is on the pro looking for Mary side, in my opinion, that greatly increases the chances of that being the wrong strategy... since that appears to be how the show rolls now whether it makes sense or not... Sam all of a sudden being "yay, I'll sign up to work for the BMoL... who cares that they tortured me and they totally screwed up that vampire raid and said they intended to exterminate all monsters (Garth who?), they've got cool weapons, so I'm in!!!" being the latest example.

 

Exactly! If the showrunners and writers have any rules for the show, the first rule is "Sam is always wrong."

[ahrtee]

3 minutes ago, auntvi said:

Exactly! If the showrunners and writers have any rules for the show, the first rule is "Sam is always wrong."

*sigh* I really wish people would stop making these blanket statements, especially this one.  I (and many others) could point out all the times that it doesn't hold true, but I know it won't make any difference.  

If I wanted to make a blanket statement, it would be this:

Dean is *usually right* about hunting matters.

Sam is *usually right* about emotional/moral matters.  

Both of them agree/apologize when they see the other one is right, unless the writers are trying to ramp up the angst.  

NEITHER ONE is ALWAYS right/wrong.  

[catrox14]

43 minutes ago, Katy M said:

He couldn't have made it all that clear. I never got that impression.  If he resented him that much for being back, why wouldn't he have just left? Or shoot him?

There are more choices that just those for Sam to show resentment. Resentments usually  exist between people who remain in contact without it ending in separation or murder, even in this show(unless they are under the spell of cursed object like the coin in Southern Comfort). 

IMO, Sam was clearly done with hunting in s8. It didn't mean anything to Sam anymore, since everyone he loved he believed was dead, true or not, it's what he believed to be true. He didn't seem to want to continue with Amelia but I don't think he was intending to resume hunting when he went to Rufus' cabin. I think it was just a place he could go whilst he decided his future. It was Dean, rightfully IMO, giving him crap for not looking for Kevin that compelled Sam to stay longer. Sam made it clear to Dean that he  was completely okay with not hunting given he said the world didn't end because he stopped hunting.

IMO, Dean's reappearance dredged up Sam's buried guilt, which lead Sam to resent Dean, rightly or wrongly because he didn't want to be reminded that he either never looked for him, and Kevin, or stopped early, per s11. IMO, Sam stayed to look for Kevin out of guilt not because he was really intending to hunt again full time or spend quality time with Dean who was rather difficult to be around because of his PTSD.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

17 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

IMO, Sam was clearly done with hunting in s8. It didn't mean anything to Sam anymore, since everyone he loved he believed was dead, true or not, it's what he believed to be true. He didn't seem to want to continue with Amelia but I don't think he was intending to resume hunting when he went to Rufus' cabin. I think it was just a place he could go whilst he decided his future.

That's interesting, because I got a different impression of that.  (Granted, it's been awhile since I watched S8, and at this point have no desire to go back and revisit that awfulness, so going on faulty memory here...) Sam left Amelia before he knew Dean was back - in the middle of the night no less.  That said to me that he was through with her before Dean ever 'guilted him into resuming hunting'.  But I also think the only reason he went to Rufus' cabin was to resume hunting.  If Sam didn't want to hunt any more, he could have crashed at any other no name motel and not been found by Amelia or anyone else.  

I also don't think Sam was resentful of Dean coming back.  His initial reaction to finding Dean at the cabin was happy.  I think Sam was resentful of the fact 1.that Dean got mad that Sam didn't look for him - even though there was allegedly* some prior agreement that they wouldn't look for each other, or 2.Kevin (and yes, I think the guilt played into that), but especially 3.when it became, "A girl?  Was there a girl?"

1. *I'm on the side of those who call BS on this agreement about which we'd never heard before, so I don't want to get into that.  As @AwesomO4000 has pointed out on many occasions, there were so many better ways the show could have played that.

2. Fwiw, I completely agree with Dean about Kevin.  

3. As much as I didn't like Angry Lady, I don't think Dean had a right to disparage Sam for trying to build a life with her either.  

All that to reiterate, that to say that Sam was resentful of Dean coming back from Purgatory is incorrect, IMO, and also oversimplifying what caused Sam to start behaving in a resentful manner.    

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

That's interesting, because I got a different impression of that.  (Granted, it's been awhile since I watched S8, and at this point have no desire to go back and revisit that awfulness, so going on faulty memory here...) Sam left Amelia before he knew Dean was back - in the middle of the night no less.  That said to me that he was through with her before Dean ever 'guilted him into resuming hunting'.  But I also think the only reason he went to Rufus' cabin was to resume hunting.  If Sam didn't want to hunt any more, he could have crashed at any other no name motel and not been found by Amelia or anyone else.  

I agree that he left Amelia before he knew about Dean.  However, after they started hunting, he was looking into going back to college.  (No idea how that would work since he's officially dead, but whatev), and he said he wanted his life to mean something. But, I don't think not wanting to hunt equates hating Dean and wishing he was off the planet.

[AwesomO4000]

4 minutes ago, Katy M said:

However, after they started hunting, he was looking into going back to college.  (No idea how that would work since he's officially dead, but whatev), and he said he wanted his life to mean something.

Which in my opinion was somewhat odd to have him say, because if Carver had paid any attention to Sam's character development, that statement made little sense or at the very least was contradictory with Sam's previous attitude, in my opinion. At both the end of "Swap Meat" and more importantly "The French Mistake," Sam rejects the notion of a "normal life" exactly because "we don't mean the same thing there" (the "normal life"). Sam chose their life - and hunting - specifically because that's where they do make a difference - by "saving people, hunting things." And it was a big part of Sam's raison d'etra in season 7 - making a difference through hunting. What about going back to school was supposed to fulfill Sam's life "meaning something?" I would like to have seen that explained, because it wasn't obvious to me what he was supposedly talking about. And also when had Sam decided that hunting wasn't worthwhile? Sam had pretty much been arguing that hunting and what he and Dean did was worth it since season 2, so exactly what made Sam change his mind on that and why didn't we see this change on camera? (my answer is because Carver decided he wanted it to be so for some reason, so he made it so whether it made sense or not - and in my opinion, it didn't make sense.)

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

But, I don't think not wanting to hunt equates hating Dean and wishing he was off the planet.

 I haven't seen anyone here say that Sam hated Dean or wanted him off the planet. Have I missed something?

[Katy M]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 I haven't seen anyone here say that Sam hated Dean or wanted him off the planet. Have I missed something?

Someone said something about resenting that he was back, which would equate resenting that he was alive, or at least on this plane.

@AwesomO4000 IMO, Sam kind of flip flops on hunting.  I think he has kind of a love/hate relationship with it.

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Someone said something about resenting that he was back, which would equate resenting that he was alive, or at least on this plane.

I said he was resentful which is not the same as saying he wants him dead or off the planet. I resent some people for things they've done and I'm sure some people resent me for things I've done but I don't think they want me dead nor do I want them dead. So I guess that comes down to how one interprets 'resentment'. 

I'm not saying he wanted Dean to still be in Purgatory or dead, but that he doesn't want to have to deal with the hunting life again and Dean's reappearance puts the hunting life back in his face and raises his own guilty conscience. Maybe there is a better word than resentment but I can't think of it right now.

ETA: FWIW, I think Dean resented Sam for not looking for him and Kevin,  but he didn't want Sam dead either. 

[CluelessDrifter]

On 9/22/2017 at 8:00 PM, RulerofallIsurvey said:

That's interesting, because I got a different impression of that.  (Granted, it's been awhile since I watched S8, and at this point have no desire to go back and revisit that awfulness, so going on faulty memory here...) Sam left Amelia before he knew Dean was back - in the middle of the night no less.  That said to me that he was through with her before Dean ever 'guilted him into resuming hunting'.  But I also think the only reason he went to Rufus' cabin was to resume hunting.  If Sam didn't want to hunt any more, he could have crashed at any other no name motel and not been found by Amelia or anyone else.

Not that it means anything, but I don't think Sam was going to Rufus's cabin, so he could start hunting again.  This:

Quote

SAM

I guess, um... I guess something happened to me this year, too.[He shrugs.] I don't hunt anymore."

This:

Quote

SAM
Look, it wasn't like I was... just oblivious. I mean, I read the paper every day. I saw the weird stories… [He sits down on the other bed facing DEAN] …the kind of stuff we used to chase.

DEAN
And you said what? "Not my problem"?
SAM
Yes. And you know what? The world went on.
DEAN
People died, Sam.
SAM
People will always die, Dean. Or maybe another hunter took care of it. I don't know, but the point is, for the first time, I realized that it wasn't only up to me to stop it.

 

And this:

Quote

SAM

 Dean, listen, when this is over – when we close up shop on Kevin and the tablet – I'm done. I mean that.

Are some things Sam says in the first 3 episodes that make me think that.  I think these and other things he says or the way he says some things are the reason why some people might think that he was resentful of Dean coming back, not that Dean was alive, but that he was hunting again, and to him, Dean represents hunting on some level.

On 9/22/2017 at 8:00 PM, RulerofallIsurvey said:

3. As much as I didn't like Angry Lady, I don't think Dean had a right to disparage Sam for trying to build a life with her either.     

It wasn't that he disparaged Sam trying to build a life with her, or he wouldn't have said this:

Quote

DEAN
I don't know. I'm just tired of all the fighting. [He takes a beer out of the refrigerator.] And, you know, maybe I'm a little bit jealous. I could never separate myself from the job like you could. Hell, maybe it's time for at least one of us to be happy.

I think it's because responsibility is such a big part of who he is, that Dean just couldn't fathom Sam not following through on what Dean saw as responsibilities Sam had to Kevin, and yes, him.

And when Sam said things, like this: 

Quote

[slowly] Farmers' market. [He holds up the apple.] Organic. What? I had a year off. I took the time to enjoy the good things.

It could come off as somewhat confrontational (to some personality types), and Dean pushed back with snide comments of his own.

Edited September 24, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[DeeDee79]

7 hours ago, ahrtee said:

*sigh* I really wish people would stop making these blanket statements, especially this one.  I (and many others) could point out all the times that it doesn't hold true, but I know it won't make any difference.  

If I wanted to make a blanket statement, it would be this:

Dean is *usually right* about hunting matters.

Sam is *usually right* about emotional/moral matters.  

Both of them agree/apologize when they see the other one is right, unless the writers are trying to ramp up the angst.  

NEITHER ONE is ALWAYS right/wrong.  

Perfectly stated @ahrtee!

[RulerofallIsurvey]

3 hours ago, CluelessDrifter said:

Not that it means anything, but I don't think Sam was going to Rufus's cabin, so he could start hunting again.

Okay.  

Fwiw, in my family, it's pretty much "actions speak louder than words", so regardless of what Sam was saying, to me it doesn't make sense that he went to RUFUS' cabin (his action) if he really, really, REALLY, wasn't interested in starting hunting again at all whatsoever.  But that's just my interpretation, so whatever.

3 hours ago, CluelessDrifter said:

It wasn't that he disparaged Sam trying to build a life with her, or he wouldn't have said this:

Oh, Dean definitely disparaged Sam not looking for him over a girl.  There is no doubt in my mind about that.  

Like I said, I'm no fan of angry lady.  But Dean had no right to do that either.  Dean did have every right to call Sam out for not looking for Kevin, since Kevin was their responsibility.  

But like I said, that's my interpretation, so whatever.  

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Fwiw, in my family, it's pretty much "actions speak louder than words", so regardless of what Sam was saying, to me it doesn't make sense that he went to RUFUS' cabin (his action) if he really, really, REALLY, wasn't interested in starting hunting again at all whatsoever.  But that's just my interpretation, so whatever.

He left Amelia and the home he was sharing with her. He didn't seem to be making much money at all. IMO, it makes perfect sense for him to head for a place far away from Amelia and have a free roof over his head. If he was interested in going back into hunting why did he keep saying this wasn't going to be a permanent thing for him?

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Oh, Dean definitely disparaged Sam not looking for him over a girl.  There is no doubt in my mind about that.  

In addition to what @CluelessDrifter included, as soon as Sam told him he had a life with a woman, Dean didn't rail on him. IMO he was HURT that Sam put anyone over looking for him but he literally asked Sam how it happened in 8.1, by asking "Did you get your peanut butter in her chocolate?" And then was pissed about the dog being in his car after Sam told him he ran over a dog with the car. The only time Dean bitched at Sam about a girl was under the influence of the cursed coin. Is that what you're thinking of maybe?

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

He left Amelia and the home he was sharing with her. He didn't seem to be making much money at all. IMO, it makes perfect sense for him to head for a place far away from Amelia and have a free roof over his head. If he was interested in going back into hunting why did he keep saying this wasn't going to be a permanent thing for him?

I guess you missed the "actions speak louder than words" part of my post.   

As far as the free roof over his head - Sam and Dean had squatted in abandoned buildings before.  Sam was no stranger to that and he could have done it again.  Or, you know, used a fake credit card like he'd done on numerous occasions already.  Rufus' cabin is in Whitefish Montana.  Sam lived with Angry Lady in Kermit Texas.  Now, according to Google Maps, that's a 25 hour drive.  Do you really think he did that in one stretch without a break?  That's a hella long drive for just a free roof over his head.  Just sayin'.  

And as for why he kept saying this wasn't going to be a permanent thing for him - Gee, I don't know - ever heard of DENIAL?  Kind of like all the "I'm fine"s when he was hallucinating or when Dean had the Mark of Cain.  Cause that's what they do.  

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

In addition to what @CluelessDrifter included, as soon as Sam told him he had a life with a woman, Dean didn't rail on him. IMO he was HURT that Sam put anyone over looking for him but he literally asked Sam how it happened in 8.1, by asking "Did you get your peanut butter in her chocolate?" And then was pissed about the dog being in his car after Sam told him he ran over a dog with the car. The only time Dean bitched at Sam about a girl was under the influence of the cursed coin. Is that what you're thinking of maybe?

No, it was the "So it was about a girl" <<or something like, I'm too lazy right now to look up the exact quote, for 8.1 from Dean.   That came across as pretty bitchy to me.  Also, the peanut butter line that you quoted - I don't know how you don't read/watch that as bitchy either.  Cause it was.  

Now, like I said I agree that Dean had every right to be that bitchy about Kevin.  And I didn't like Amelia.  But Dean did not have the right to get snarky and bitchy about that.  

Take if for what it is: My opinion only, of course.  

[catrox14]

31 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

 Sam lived with Angry Lady in Kermit Texas.  Now, according to Google Maps, that's a 25 hour drive.  Do you really think he did that in one stretch without a break?  That's a hella long drive for just a free roof over his head.  Just sayin'.  

I  know he lived in Texas.  And this is a free furnished place to live that didn't require the risk of being evicted or being arrested like squatting. Seems like the most logical decision even if it is a 1500 mile drive. Why wouldn't he do it?

[catrox14]

41 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Also, the peanut butter line that you quoted - I don't know how you don't read/watch that as bitchy either.  Cause it was.  

 IMO, it was more sad and rueful than bitchy. He got quiet, look disappointed and then asked how it happened. It was a little snarky but I don't think it was bitchy. MMV

[RulerofallIsurvey]

23 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Seems like the most logical decision even if it is a 1500 mile drive. Why wouldn't he do it?

I don't agree that it's the most logical decision of where to stay - especially given the considerations that I've already outlined.  My question is: why would he do it if it wasn't because he really, kinda, sorta, maybe just a little bit... did want to get back into hunting?  There's a literal myriad of other ways he could have driven and places he could have stayed - for free since he wouldn't have paid for it had he used a stolen credit card - other than a former hunter's cabin - which would have reminded him at every turn and everywhere he looked of...oh, I don't know...hunting?  (And BTW - when have we EVER seen them evicted or arrested for squatting or using illegal cards?) If he were really out of the life, that is.  Seems suspect to me.  If it doesn't to you, then that's fine.  Whatever.  YMMV.

ETA: Once again, according to Google Maps, it's at least a 1611 mile drive.  That's over a hundred more miles (at 60 mph. that's almost 2 more hours) than 1500 miles.  When you're driving and tired, two hours is an eternity.  

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

It was a little snarky but I don't think it was bitchy. MMV

One person's snarky is another person's bitchy, is it not?

Edited September 23, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey

[catrox14]

56 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Maps, that's a 25 hour drive.  Do you really think he did that in one stretch without a break?  That's a hella long drive for just a free roof over his head.  Just sayin'.  

He could have pulled over and slept in the car for a few hours for a free home that was pretty decent. Sam gave up all the things related to hunting. He turned off the phones, he didn't take calls, I think he might have even stopped the credit card fraud too. Probably the only thing he didn't give up was his guns. He at least had a place where he could fish, maybe even hunt for food, some generators, a fireplace and a place to reconsider his life after ending a live-in relationship that seems to have lasted several months.

Even when he got to the cabin he literally said to Dean "I don't hunt anymore", which sounds like present tense not past tense. But that's just my interpretation. 

Here is the reunion scene  FWIW, just for the sake of discussion. :)

 

8 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

don't agree that it's the most logical decision of where to stay - especially given the considerations that I've already outlined.  My question is: why would he do it if it wasn't because he really, kinda, sorta, maybe just a little bit... did want to get back into hunting?

Because it was a place that he already knew about and was far away from where he didn't want to be anymore?  Literally everything Sam told Dean was that he stopped hunting, wasn't intending to go back to hunting, had ignored hunting type stuff and was doing it all intentionally. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Here is the reunion scene  FWIW, just for the sake of discussion. :)

I read the transcript, thanks.  

Sure, he could have done what you say.  He could have also done what I say.  I prefer my interpretation.  

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Probably the only thing he didn't give up was his guns.

Well, and he also didn't give up searching the news for supernatural incidents, even if he didn't do anything about them.  Which, personally, I find a little odd.  If you're giving up something cold turkey, why keep looking for it?

[trxr4kids]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Now, according to Google Maps, that's a 25 hour drive.  Do you really think he did that in one stretch without a break?  That's a hella long drive for just a free roof over his head.  Just sayin'.  

Well Sam and Dean are kinda used to that what with their lives and all but since Sam was solo, he could've slept in the Impala on the way since they do that sometimes too.

6 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Which, personally, I find a little odd.  If you're giving up something cold turkey, why keep looking for it?

Maybe to make sure it's not sneaking up on you again, just a thought.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Just now, trxr4kids said:

Well Sam and Dean are kinda used to that what with their lives and all but since Sam was solo, he could've slept in the Impala on the way since they do that sometimes too.

Sure, I could see that.  But then, like I said, why keep on going to a former hunter's cabin that would have reminded him off all things he supposedly gave up, when he could have literally gone anywhere else?  It doesn't track for me.  If it does for you, then that's wonderful.  

[catrox14]

19 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Well, and he also didn't give up searching the news for supernatural incidents, even if he didn't do anything about them.  Which, personally, I find a little odd.  If you're giving up something cold turkey, why keep looking for it?

I don't think he was actively seeking out the weird stuff but happened to see them in the news and then actively ignored and opted out. He said he opted out. I don't see why him breaking off with Amelia would send him back to hunting when all signs point to the opposite. 

If Sam had gone back to the cabin because he was going to start hunting again, why didn't he just tell Dean, I came back to the cabin to hunt again when Dean started giving him the business about Kevin. Instead he kind of doubled down on NOT hunting. Anyway, that's just how I see it.

Just they way I interpret the scene I brought over for discussion. I always get so much more out of the acting with all the nuance and expressions that for me, tells me more than just the dialogue.

I think Dean and Sam were both awkward and defensive with each other for different reasons.

Edited September 23, 2017 by catrox14

[Katy M]

Count me as one who doesn't think Sam went to the cabin to start hunting again.  I think he just needed some place to go while he took a couple of days to take a breath and figure out his next step.  If he had wanted to hunt again, why email colleges two scant episodes later. That would imply that he wanted to hunt, but Dean's appearance made him decide not to?  I could see it the other way around, but that makes no sense.  I also don't think not hunting makes him any more horrid of a person than anybody else.  We all know serial killers exist, but we don't all become FBI agents or whatever.  I honestly feel that the only thing Sam has to feel guilty about is abandoning Kevin.  

[DeeDee79]

55 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Well, and he also didn't give up searching the news for supernatural incidents, even if he didn't do anything about them.  Which, personally, I find a little odd.  If you're giving up something cold turkey, why keep looking for it?

Honestly, I found this odd as well. Sam up to that point in the episode had stated that he no longer hunted and seemed pretty comfortable with that stance. If he was truly out he wouldn't have even cared enough to search for supernatural events even if he passed them along to another hunter. Although if he just happened to come across an oddball news article that screamed supernatural occurrence and was unable to ignore it that would be something different. I don't know; bad writing maybe? Edit: or what @catrox14 said.

12 minutes ago, Katy M said:

If he had wanted to hunt again, why email colleges two scant episodes later.

True indeed! I'd completely forgotten about that.

Edited September 23, 2017 by DeeDee79