“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[Aeryn13]

The show itself felt the need to compare both experiences and put Sam`s experience as the worse one, thereby diminishing Dean`s. The show goes there all the time with Sam vs. Dean so the fandom following has always been quite natural to me. It`s woven in the source text. Always has and IMO always will. 

[Idahoforspn]

9 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

As I've said many times before, I think both their hell experiences were equally as horrifying to the person experiencing them. It's just not something that can be compared, IMO.

Well the Show sure compared them. And is STILL using Sam/Lucifer storyline how many years later. I wish Lucifer had stayed in the cage after season 5.

4 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

The show had no problem minimizing Dean's treatment and acting like it was no big deal.  There was Jensen's line about his hell being Disneyland, as opposed  to just having Dean say something like,  "I know what you'll be in for."  I also remember s6 comic con with Gamble talking about just how much worse Sam had it.

 

I disagree Sam's time in hell has been minimized.  It spanned two years with two storylines.  Including an episode that took place all in Sam's mind where he got to confront his souless and hell self.  We got On the Head of A Pin and as great as that ep was, Alasitair ended up geting better of Dean whereas Sam got to kill him.  Then last season they made several references to Sam's hell while ignoring Dean's and Sam even got a direct confrontation with Lucifer.

We basically got 3 episodes (seems to be a pattern) of Dean talking about his hell, then he got told to suck it up and stop whining  about it.

All this!

[Idahoforspn]

3 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

Well the Show sure compared them. And is STILL using Sam/Lucifer storyline how many years later. I wish Lucifer had stayed in the cage after season 5.

All this!

We even got Sam throwing how he had been tortured by Lucifer himself in Lady Toni's face. Just like they throw it in Dean fans faces constantly.

[ILoveReading]

The one episode dealing with Dean's hell fears was done as a comedy.  Nothing about Sam's time there was treated that way.  We even had Sully tell Sam how great and awesome he was about wanting to go into the cage.  

While I agree in theory that you really can't compare them the show doesn't share that view.   I think the closest we had with Dean's was Sam telling him that he held out longer than anyone would, but the show couldn't even let that stand as they had to make sure we knew that John lasted over century while "Daddy's little girl broke in 30."

I can head canon that John was never the righeous man or Alastair was lying but nothing was ever said on the show, nope just tried to make it sound like Dean was weak

[Reganne]

5 hours ago, CluelessDrifter said:

But in my opinion it was an accurate statement, hurtful or not.  I know it was said because of what he saw Sam do previously, but Sam proved he was a monster with the nurse after he left Dean.  It was an addiction that was every bit as threatening to human life as a monster's blood lust.  In their world, that made Sam a monster.  Add to that, that Sam's eyes also went black when he killed Lilith.  That wasn't meant to be a good thing either.

All that being said, I don't actually think Dean calling Sam a monster was the most hurtful thing he said to Sam in that exchange.  It was repeating John's words of 'You walk out that door, don't ever come back.'  Sometimes the hurtful things we say are just as hurtful to the ones saying them as to the person hearing them, and I think that was one of those instances. And unless you've dealt with someone you are close to being an addict, you don't really know where Dean was coming from after a year of Sam lying to him and sneaking around behind his back, or what it's like to not be able to get through to an addict even though you can see what it's doing to them.  Eventually, you have to realize they are the ones who are in charge of their addiction and recovery, and you have to cut them off until they get clean, or it will drag you down with them.  If you do know what that's like, then I'm surprised you don't see where Dean was coming from.

I can see how Dean would be angry or frustrated in that situation.  Still doesn't make what he said the greatest choice of words.  Generally I can see why Sam was upset with Dean in the purge as well even though I don't think he used the best choice of words either.  Granted, one could say there was some truth in what he was saying as well.  However, the whole saving eachother for selfish reasons (aka not being able to live without their brother) could said for both of them.

[Katy M]

19 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

The one episode dealing with Dean's hell fears was done as a comedy.  Nothing about Sam's time there was treated that way.  We even had Sully tell Sam how great and awesome he was about wanting to go into the cage.  

While I agree in theory that you really can't compare them the show doesn't share that view.   I think the closest we had with Dean's was Sam telling him that he held out longer than anyone would, but the show couldn't even let that stand as they had to make sure we knew that John lasted over century while "Daddy's little girl broke in 30."

I can head canon that John was never the righeous man or Alastair was lying but nothing was ever said on the show, nope just tried to make it sound like Dean was weak

Well, the whole problem with a lot of the show, is we never know who knew what when.  But, if we assume that the demons knew that "the one who began it has to be the one that ends it" and that Dean and Sam are Michael and Lucifer's vessel and the prize fight has to take place between brothers and blah blah blah, I think it's absolutely safe to assume that John was never part of the plan.  Azazel probably wanted him more out of the way than anything else when making that deal, and it wasn't time for Dean to go to Hell yet.

[CluelessDrifter]

6 minutes ago, Reganne said:

I can see how Dean would be angry or frustrated in that situation.  Still doesn't make what he said the greatest choice of words. 

Trust me.  When you're dealing with a sibling that you've had to look after your entire life being an addict, choosing the right words to say when nothing you say is getting through is the least of your problems.  I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this. 

Edited May 8, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

Well, the whole problem with a lot of the show, is we never know who knew what when.  But, if we assume that the demons knew that "the one who began it has to be the one that ends it" and that Dean and Sam are Michael and Lucifer's vessel and the prize fight has to take place between brothers and blah blah blah, I think it's absolutely safe to assume that John was never part of the plan.  Azazel probably wanted him more out of the way than anything else when making that deal, and it wasn't time for Dean to go to Hell yet.

The Righteous man turned out to be another red herring because Dean was as easy to replace as a light bulb.  He went from the only vessel, to the true vessel, to a dime a dozen.   Adam was inserted into the plan easily enough, so I can't rule out John based on that.

[Katy M]

16 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

The Righteous man turned out to be another red herring because Dean was as easy to replace as a light bulb.  He went from the only vessel, to the true vessel, to a dime a dozen.   Adam was inserted into the plan easily enough, so I can't rule out John based on that.

They had to do improvise due to Dean being Dean and team free will instead of team fate.  But, they still used brothers and they waited until basically the last minute to shift gears, so yeah, I think we can rule out John.

[CluelessDrifter]

18 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

The Righteous man turned out to be another red herring because Dean was as easy to replace as a light bulb.  He went from the only vessel, to the true vessel, to a dime a dozen.   Adam was inserted into the plan easily enough, so I can't rule out John based on that.

Hmm.  Dean wasn't replaced as the Righteous Man.  Alistair breaking the first seal, AKA Dean, kick started the seals breaking.  That lines up with the first part of the prophecy.  The second part, the part that says only Dean can stop it?  That happened too.  If he hadn't shown up as himself in SS, Sam wouldn't have been able to break Lucifer's hold over him, and he wouldn't have been able to jump in the cage.  That's why I really don't like that green army man, because it diminishes the importance of Dean's role in that situation, but if Dean hadn't driven the Impala there, I guess the green army man wouldn't have been there, and Sam wouldn't have remembered his past with Dean or seen what he was currently doing to Dean to make himself stop and jump in the cage.  Should've been done without the green army man.  Dean should've been enough on his own, IMO, but it is what it is.  That green army man . . . grrrr!

[ILoveReading]

Just now, CluelessDrifter said:

Hmm.  Dean wasn't replaced as the Righteous Man.  Alistair breaking the first seal, AKA Dean, kick started the seals breaking.  That lines up with the first part of the prophecy.  The second part, the part that says only Dean can stop it?  That happened too.  If he hadn't shown up as himself in SS, Sam wouldn't have been able to break Lucifer's hold over him, and he wouldn't have been able to jump in the cage.  That's why I really don't like that green army man, because it diminishes the importance of Dean's role in that situation, but if Dean hadn't driven the Impala there, I guess the green army man wouldn't have been there, and Sam wouldn't have remembered his past with Dean or seen what he was currently doing to Dean to make himself stop and jump in the cage.  Should've been done without the green army man.  Dean should've been enough on his own, IMO, but it is what it is.  That green army man . . . grrrr!

But as that scene was filmed it was the green army man that broke though to Sam's memories not Dean himself.  Nothing Dean did was unique and physically Dean wasn't needed at all.   Bobby and Cas showed up too. Since Cas had almost no power, Cas and Bobby probably had to drive to get there.  So they easily could have done what Dean did.  Dean, himself wasn't needed for anything since is physical presence had no effect on Sam.  

After SS aired I lost track of how many posts and reviews gave more credit to the car.  Even the narrative did as the voice over said the car was the most important object in the universe, so it seems that was Kripke's intent.  

[Katy M]

6 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

But as that scene was filmed it was the green army man that broke though to Sam's memories not Dean himself.  Nothing Dean did was unique and physically Dean wasn't needed at all.   Bobby and Cas showed up too. Since Cas had almost no power, Cas and Bobby probably had to drive to get there.  So they easily could have done what Dean did.  Dean, himself wasn't needed for anything since is physical presence had no effect on Sam.  

I don't think the green army men would have done the trick without Dean there.  It was a combo of Dean telling him he would never leave him and the sun's glare off the army men.

[Idahoforspn]

5 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

But as that scene was filmed it was the green army man that broke though to Sam's memories not Dean himself.  Nothing Dean did was unique and physically Dean wasn't needed at all.   Bobby and Cas showed up too. Since Cas had almost no power, Cas and Bobby probably had to drive to get there.  So they easily could have done what Dean did.  Dean, himself wasn't needed for anything since is physical presence had no effect on Sam.  

After SS aired I lost track of how many posts and reviews gave more credit to the car.  Even the narrative did as the voice over said the car was the most important object in the universe, so it seems that was Kripke's intent.  

I'm pretty sure it was Kripke at the time who said flat out it was the army man and not Dean.

[Aeryn13]

Yup, the show could have easily clarified the thing with John but since it was only Dean`s story, they didn`t bother. As for 5.22, they wrote the episode so his "role" was "it has value if you squint but if you don`t you can easily dismiss him".

As much as I loved Season 4, the resolution of it all is the most crushing disappointment that show has ever delivered. I mean, Season 8.B and this Season have been really low lows but it is worse if you had something - or you think you had something - and then that gets taken away. Back then I didn`t expect to be screwed over like that.

These days I don`t expect anything good so I sometimes get pleasantly surprised (Regarding Dean), sometimes my low expectations confirmed and sometimes they even reach new lows.   

[catrox14]

Sam's Hell and Dean's Hell served two different purposes for the story.

2 hours ago, companionenvy said:

I agree that Dean's hell-time has been minimized (as has Sam's, for that matter - anyone who had spent as much time in hell as Sam OR Dean should have severe, lasting trauma that goes well beyond what we saw, which is why I hate that the show made the duration of their hell-time so exaggerated), but Sam didn't have the opportunity to "break", so we have no idea how long he would have held out before agreeing to torture souls. 

They are not equivalent because the reasons why Sam was in Hell is completely different than Dean. The entire point of Dean being in Hell and Dean being tortured by Alastair and other demons ** was to make Dean break the first seal so the next 65 seals would fall leading to Sam killing Lilith which let Lucifer out of the Cage. 

Quote

DEAN
They, uh... They sliced and carved and tore at me in ways that you... Until there was nothing left. And then, suddenly... I would be whole again... like magic... just so they could start in all over. And Alastair... at the end of every day... every one... he would come over. And he would make me an offer. To take me off the rack... if I put souls on... if I started the torturing. And every day, I told him to stick it where the sun shines. For 30 years, I told him. But then I couldn't do it anymore, Sammy. I couldn't. And I got off that rack. God help me, I got right off it, and I started ripping them apart. I lost count of how many souls. [ a tear rolls down his cheek ] The -- the things that I did to them.

SAM

Sam was in the Cage with Lucifer inside him. 

I guess I don't understand where Sam "breaking" in Hell comes into play?  Lucifer was tormenting Sam just for the fuck of it because Sam won.

AFAIK, there has never been evidence that Sam was subjected to being tortured by anyone other than Lucifer himself and possibly Michael!Adam because only angels, Death, and those with the Horseman's Rings could enter the Cage.   It was a different torment than Dean's and it went on longer and it was Lucifer doing it, but it was for different reasons and AFAIK Sam was never compelled to torture anyone else, nor would he have had the means to do so.

Somehow Cas was able to get Sam out of the Cage without letting Lucifer and Michael out which is confusing for me.Did Sam expel Lucifer? Why didn't Lucifer come out with Sam? It really doesn't make any sense when I think about it for 5 freaking minutes. 

WHOOPS posted before I was done.

ETA: That's why for me the lack of attention in the story to Dean's Hell time is aggravating because it was so different for them both, yet Sam's Hell time has essentially been part of the SL off and on for the better part of 5 seasons now.  Dean's was examined for less than 3 episodes combined.  I think Jensen works in Dean's trauma and how it changed him into his characterization but the narrative doesn't seem to care about it to the extent it cared about Sam's Hell time. 

Edited May 8, 2017 by catrox14

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 hours ago, companionenvy said:

I agree that Dean's hell-time has been minimized (as has Sam's, for that matter - anyone who had spent as much time in hell as Sam OR Dean should have severe, lasting trauma that goes well beyond what we saw, which is why I hate that the show made the duration of their hell-time so exaggerated), but Sam didn't have the opportunity to "break", so we have no idea how long he would have held out before agreeing to torture souls. 

Thank you.  That's just what I was going to say.

[Katy M]

14 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Somehow Cas was able to get Sam out of the Cage without letting Lucifer and Michael out which is confusing for me.Did Sam expel Lucifer? Why didn't Lucifer come out with Sam? It really doesn't make any sense when I think about it for 5 freaking minutes. 

Lucifer doesn't need a meat suit in Hell and he was probably more comfortable without it.  But, otherwise don't get me started on the stupidity of the Cas rescue.

[Idahoforspn]

I would like to see a comprehensive list of Dean's dropped or never fleshed out storylines and the same for Sam. Anyone ever put one together?

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Lucifer doesn't need a meat suit in Hell and he was probably more comfortable without it.  But, otherwise don't get me started on the stupidity of the Cas rescue.

Dean' s rescue and resurrection makes more sense to me because Dean's body was not trapped in a Cage, it was in a grave. So Cas could put Dean's soul back into it, heal it, allowing Dean to crawl out of his grave.  

But when Samifer fell didn't his meatsuit with Lucifer's grace etc inside of it fall directly into the Cage? If so doesn't that imply Cas had to open the Cage to take out Sam' s meatsuit and resurrect it?

Why didn't Lucifer and Michael!Sam escape when Cas got into the Cage?

I just don't get it. LOL

Edited May 8, 2017 by catrox14

[ILoveReading]

42 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I don't think the green army men would have done the trick without Dean there.  It was a combo of Dean telling him he would never leave him and the sun's glare off the army men.

Then the show needed better direction if they wanted me to see this, because Lucifer's punches never slowed or became hesitant to show us Dean's pleading was having any effect.  IMO, he was going for the killing blow when the glare caught his eye, and it landed on the army man. 

Bobby, Cas, John and Mary didn't need an avatar, only Sam did which I felt cheapened the moment.

It's too easy to dismiss Dean's contribution, and even Sam has done this.  In 9,01 which was a direct look into Sam's head he gave himself full credit for saving the world.  He didn't credit Dean with being there for him.  He said Dean was and I quote...

"A halfwit who didn't do jack."

We can agree to disagree

Edited May 8, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Dean' s rescue and resurrection makes more sense to me because Dean's soul (or soul body) was not trapped in a Cage,it was in a grave. So Cas could put Dean's soul back into it, heal it, allowing Dean to crawl out of his grave.  

But when Samifer fell didn't his meatsuit with Lucifer's grace etc inside of it fall directly into the Cage? If so doesn't that imply Cas had to open the Cage to take out Sam' s meatsuit and resurrect it?

Why didn't Lucifer and Michael!Sam escape when Cas got into the Cage?

I just don't get it. LOL

Don't look at me for clarification.  I said not to get me started on the stupidity of the whole thing.  But, yes, Sam was in the cage with Michael, Adam, and Lucifer.  I'm assuming that Michael and Lucifer freed themselves of Adam and Sam when they got down there, because like I said they don't need meatsuits in Hell.  So, Cas somehow got into the cage (even though Azazel didn't even know where it was, and to open it before they either needed to break 66 seals or have the horsemen's rings), he then somehow got Sam's body without his soul. Where was Sam's soul?  Why wasn't it in his body?  That makes no sense.  Walked back out.  Didn't bother with Adam.  Michael and Lucifer didn't bother overpowering him to get out while the door was open.  Just annoyingly stupid.  I also hated the whole soulless thing, because the definition of soulless seemed to change from epi to epi.

[catrox14]

Just now, Katy M said:

Don't look at me for clarification.  I said not to get me started on the stupidity of the whole thing.  But, yes, Sam was in the cage with Michael, Adam, and Lucifer.  I'm assuming that Michael and Lucifer freed themselves of Adam and Sam when they got down there, because like I said they don't need meatsuits in Hell.

LOL.

So you're saying that Lucifer and Michael just vacated their meatsuits because they could. I guess that makes sense. 

So then it really was the WaveLength of Celestial Intent tormenting Sam. Like literally. Messing with Sam's mind etc.

I guess I can understand that.

[DittyDotDot]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

But when Samifer fell didn't his meatsuit with Lucifer's grace etc inside of it fall directly into the Cage? If so doesn't that imply Cas had to open the Cage to take out Sam' s meatsuit and resurrect it?

Yes, it doesn't make any sense what-so-ever, but since logic and reason really have no place here... . ;)

[catrox14]

Just now, DittyDotDot said:

Yes, it doesn't make any sense what-so-ever, but since logic and reason really have no place here... . ;)

I know, I know. But sometimes this show does justify the illogical things with some kind of bullshit explanation. I don't think we even got that! LOL

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

LOL.

So you're saying that Lucifer and Michael just vacated their meatsuits because they could. I guess that makes sense. 

So then it really was the WaveLength of Celestial Intent tormenting Sam. Like literally. Messing with Sam's mind etc.

I guess I can understand that.

Cas said his true form was the size of the Chrysler Building.  Kind of makes you wonder how they possess people.  But, that makes me think that angels have some kind of physical form when not possessing people.  So, I'm sure he got both physical and mental torture.  But, I'm also not sure how much physical form Sam's soul has.  They usually show them as little balls of light.  But, aren't ghosts just souls?  My head hurts. 

[Idahoforspn]

19 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Then the show needed better direction if they wanted me to see this, because Lucifer's punches never slowed or became hesitant to show us Dean's pleading was having any effect.  IMO, he was going for the killing blow when the glare caught his eye, and it landed on the army man. 

Bobby, Cas, John and Mary didn't need an avatar, only Sam did which I felt cheapened the moment.

It's too easy to dismiss Dean's contribution, and even Sam has done this.  In 9,01 which was a direct look into Sam's head he gave himself full credit for saving the world.  He didn't credit Dean with being there for him.  He said Dean was and I quote...

"A halfwit who didn't do jack."

We can agree to disagree

Oh but don't you know...Sam doesn't diss Dean. I was sick yesterday and watched The Memory Remains again as I was curious about the comments that Dean was too distracted by his burger. I wish I had been in the restaurant so I could give Sam a whack on the head when he was so condescending about Dean (behind his back) regarding the waitress. I know a lot of you don't agree but I see some of that from Sam almost every episode. When you combine that with incompetent, vallium Dean, it doesn't make make it much fun for a Dean girl.

Edited May 8, 2017 by Idahoforspn
Changed episode title.

[AwesomO4000]

56 minutes ago, Katy M said:

But, I'm also not sure how much physical form Sam's soul has.  They usually show them as little balls of light.

As I've said before, my theory is that they have "hell bodies" and "heaven bodies" and "purgatory bodies" as long as they are in one of those realms, but once taken out of that realm, the soul becomes the glowy ball of light or the black smoke in the case of a demon. I don't know/remember what a single monster soul looks like. I'm trying to remember what Benny looked like - wasn't he a glowy thing in Dean's arm?

Anyway, my "proof" that there is a "body" of some sort in the other realms is because Dean could actually interact with Benny as far as I could tell. As could the other monsters in purgatory - both with Benny and with Dean in his  real body. So they all had a monster "body" even though their real bodies were on earth. Dean also had a "body" in hell. We saw that when he was suspended on hooks even though his real body was buried in Pontiac, Illinois.*

Also they both had bodies in heaven that interacted with Pamela and Ash's bodies even though their real bodies were dead in the hotel rooms on earth. So they don't exist - as far as I can see - as glowy balls of energy within the respective realms. They are only the glowy balls of energy on earth or when someone else is carrying them from one realm to another - like Dean did with Benny, and Death did with Sam.

That's my theory and I'm sticking to it.

As for Sam being brought back soulless. My theory is that the cage rejected Sam's actual body, probably Adam's too. And the souls got a hell body instead like usual while Lucifer and Michael could be whatever they wanted - either angels or "create" themselves a visage.  Apparently, based on Sam's hallucinations, Lucifer liked being Nick most frequently, but I'm betting he pretended to be all sorts of people for his amusement and to mentally torture Sam.
 

* And I still feel cheated that that was yet another emotional beat for Sam that we never got. Why did Sam even bury Dean there? Was there a significance? Did he talk to Dean's dead body like Dean talked to him? But nah, the story didn't think that was important - just make Sam into an addict and a monster - the why isn't important.

Edited May 8, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[Geordiegirl1967]

Carver's new show Frequency has been cancelled. Wonder if he's regretting leaving SPN? 

[catrox14]

Carver left SPN for Being Human and they welcomed him back with open arms. I'd be okay with him returning to the fold.

[DittyDotDot]

Okay, this is probably gonna sound harsh, but I'm not fond of the idea Carver can just keep bailing on the show for something better and return whenever it suits him.

Plus, even though I'm not enthused with Dabb as a showrunner, I'd take Dabb over Carver any day. Carver's whole attitude always rubbed me the wrong way--like he was too good for the show and doing us some great favor by gracing it with his presence. If the show's going to be a mess either way, I'll take the enthusiastic mess over the snooty one.

[Wayward Son]

I think I'd be happy to welcome him back as a general writer with absolutely no influence on the story arc / bigger picture of the season since he has written some amazing episodes. However, as a show runner / someone in a position of power definitely not! He's already almost ruined the show for me once! I don't need him to do it again. 

[SueB]

It would be a public "backward" move for him.  There's no hue and cry for Dabb to be replaced.  The ratings, while lower, are consistent with the rest of television.  

Carver will move on, I expect, to something new.  And really, IMO, he should.

Just today Jennifer Morrison announced she's leaving Once Upon a Time.  And I thought "to do WHAT?" It's incredibly difficult to find good steady work. And everyone wants to be a George Clooney (TV star turned movie star) or Christ Pratt.  It just doesn't happen very often.  And Pratt left his show AFTER his movie career took off.

We've been VERY LUCKY that our boys are humble enough to realize how lucky they are and have stuck by the show.  The show runners, IMO, are the ones who rotated out looking for "greener-pastures" and found that success is difficult to repeat.  

But I think once gone, always gone.  MAYBE in some final season some of them would get an episode.  Add Robbie Thompson and Ben Edlund to the mix and I'm THERE.  But not as showrunners.  

[Reganne]

2 hours ago, Idahoforspn said:

Oh but don't you know...Sam doesn't diss Dean. 

When did someone say that? As far as I can tell some people were just saying both brothers have said negative and positive things to eachother instead of it being only one sided. 

Edited May 8, 2017 by Reganne

[catrox14]

31 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Okay, this is probably gonna sound harsh, but I'm not fond of the idea Carver can just keep bailing on the show for something better and return whenever it suits him.

Why do you think he's doing it for something he thinks is better? Perhaps he got offered more money. Maybe he wanted to write and create different. Maybe he thought he had done all he wanted to do with SPN.  I remember reading that he thought he had enough story for 3 seasons. Maybe they all left on good terms.

 

8 minutes ago, SueB said:

would be a public "backward" move for him.  There's no hue and cry for Dabb to be replaced.  The ratings, while lower, are consistent with the rest of television.

Why would it be 'backward' move?  He could come back and be a co-showrunner with Dabb if Singer is looking to leave. Singer stepped back in s11. It could happen again. Maybe the show itself would be happy to have him back.

But then I probably I'm more in favor of Carver than others. I don't see that it would be an issue myself.

[Reganne]

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Then the show needed better direction if they wanted me to see this, because Lucifer's punches never slowed or became hesitant to show us Dean's pleading was having any effect.  IMO, he was going for the killing blow when the glare caught his eye, and it landed on the army man. 

Bobby, Cas, John and Mary didn't need an avatar, only Sam did which I felt cheapened the moment.

It's too easy to dismiss Dean's contribution, and even Sam has done this.  In 9,01 which was a direct look into Sam's head he gave himself full credit for saving the world.  He didn't credit Dean with being there for him.  He said Dean was and I quote...

"A halfwit who didn't do jack."

We can agree to disagree

I think they were talking about Bobbys hell rescue from season 8 during the "halfwit" comment.  Not Swan Song and saving the world.

As far as it being in someone's head as being the same as that person saying it, I have to disagree.  When I dream, I don't agree with what everyone is doing and saying in my dreams.  Last night someone was trying to kill me in my dream and I don't agree with that.

[DittyDotDot]

35 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Why do you think he's doing it for something he thinks is better? Perhaps he got offered more money. Maybe he wanted to write and create different. Maybe he thought he had done all he wanted to do with SPN.  I remember reading that he thought he had enough story for 3 seasons. Maybe they all left on good terms.

Uh, I think I was clear.

[Idahoforspn]

14 minutes ago, Reganne said:

I think they were talking about Bobbys hell rescue from season 8 during the "halfwit" comment.  Not Swan Song and saving the world.

As far as it being in someone's head as being the same as that person saying it, I have to disagree.  When I dream, I don't agree with what everyone is doing and saying in my dreams.  Last night someone was trying to kill me in my dream and I don't agree with that.

If your going to dismiss the halfwit remark because it was in Sam's head then you have to dismiss the " I'm ready to die" that was in Sam's head too. Last Dean knew from Sam in real life (at the church) is Sam wanted to live.

49 minutes ago, Reganne said:

When did someone say that? As far as I can tell some people were just saying both brothers have said negative and positive things to eachother instead of it being only one sided. 

I will have to see if I can find the comments. This format isn't easy to find old stuff in.

[Geordiegirl1967]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

Plus, even though I'm not enthused with Dabb as a showrunner, I'd take Dabb over Carver any day.

I'm not sure. Carver's beyond idiotic, character-destroying, canon-busting and all round god awful decision to have Sam not look for Dean almost ruined the show for me. I struggled on up to the appalling Citizen Fang hoping for an explanation, a twist, a reveal (who was the mystery guy watching the house), anything to provide a credible reason for the ooc actions of Sam. When it became apparent none was coming I very nearly quit. However the second half of s8 was a bro bond fest and I really enjoyed the trials story. I pretty much hated all of s9 and s10 was a mixed bag. He was FAR too fond of using conflict between Dean and Sam as the source of his drama - even if he had to twist the characters into an unrecognisable version of themselves to do it.

However he was capable of really excellent writing, he never forgot the show was about Sam and Dean (even if I hated his interpretation of that at times) and it was never dull. He also had the benefit of a MUCH more talented group of writers working under him. Dabb hasn't forced problems between Dean and Sam, but he hasn't bothered doing anything else with them either. He seems much more committed to writing for Luci, Mary, BMoL, Rowena, Crowley, Cas, anyone who is not Sam or Dean. It feels tired, repetitive and without focus. I don't rate him at all.  

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Uh, I think I was clear.

I know you said you thought he was too good for the show. I guess I was just trying to understand more about your opinion. Sorry for any offense caused by my question.

[catrox14]

28 minutes ago, Reganne said:

As far as it being in someone's head as being the same as that person saying it, I have to disagree.  When I dream, I don't agree with what everyone is doing and saying in my dreams.  Last night someone was trying to kill me in my dream and I don't agree with that.

That's the problem IMO with that coma!Scape. Which aspects are to be trusted as to what Sam really wanted or thought?

[Reganne]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That's the problem IMO with that coma!Scape. Which aspects are to be trusted as to what Sam really wanted or thought?

I think Sam was ready to die if it were to be his time.  Not that he actually wanted to die necessarily.  Though that is probably just my head canon. 

[DittyDotDot]

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I know you said you thought he was too good for the show. I guess I was just trying to understand more about your opinion. Sorry for any offense caused by my question.

No offense caused, I just don't know how else to explain it. I thought I was pretty clear. Carver always seemed like he was just slumming it with us and I'd rather he not come back to sit around waiting for his next big opportunity.

For the record, I wouldn't want Kripke to come back either. Not because I didn't enjoy him as showrunner, but he walked away for a reason. I don't want him to come back simply because he doesn't have anything better to do. I harbor less annoyance at Kripke, though, because at least felt like he wanted to be working on the show. Carver, even as a writer, never felt like he wanted to be here, IMO.

Edited May 9, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Idahoforspn]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That's the problem IMO with that coma!Scape. Which aspects are to be trusted as to what Sam really wanted or thought?

It would actually be nice if we could not only get rid of the half wit brother comment but also Sam's 1. I saved Bobby all alone

2. I want to die 3. I saved the world alone 4. Death is honored to reap me. There are a lot more but it's hard to do this on a phone.

[catrox14]

Just now, DittyDotDot said:

No offense caused, I just don't know how else to explain it. I thought I was pretty clear. Carver always seemed like he was just slumming it with us and I'd rather he not come back to sit around waiting for his next big opportunity.

I guess I was thinking  maybe there were specific things Carver said or did that left you with that impression.  I do think he wanted to write for Crowley more than anyone else. 

[DittyDotDot]

14 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

However he was capable of really excellent writing, he never forgot the show was about Sam and Dean (even if I hated his interpretation of that at times) and it was never dull.

Oh, I found him 50/50 as a writer. Sometimes he did really well, but for every Mystery Spot and Changing Channels, he has a Sin City or Family Remains. ::shrugs::

As a showrunner though, I thought he was no different than Gamble or Dabb. He had some moments both good and bad. It's his attitude that makes me not want him back though. But, that's probably just me.

Edited May 9, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Geordiegirl1967]

7 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I thought he was no different than Gamble or Dabb

Got to disagree there! I had some issues with Sera G e.g  I hated the half season wasted on soulless Sam. But IMO neither Carver nor Dabb are fit to lace her shoes as a writer or as a showrunner.

[auntvi]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Why would it be 'backward' move?  He could come back and be a co-showrunner with Dabb if Singer is looking to leave. Singer stepped back in s11. It could happen again. Maybe the show itself would be happy to have him back.

No, no, no, please no! I agree with @DittyDotDot that he thought he was too smart for SPN. I remember during the panel at ComicCon (I think) after he'd written Charlie out of the show.  When the inevitable question came up, why kill Charlie, the cast refused to answer and just watched him flounder. They seemed to be really enjoying the spectacle. He had no real answer but rambled for a while until Jensen half-heartedly repeated the company line. He was so out of touch with the fans, and I'd guess the cast did not love him.  I was not impressed, especially compared to other show runners I've seen on panels. 

[catrox14]

Just now, auntvi said:

No, no, no, please no! I agree with @DittyDotDot that he thought he was too smart for SPN. I remember during the panel at ComicCon (I think) after he'd written Charlie out of the show.  When the inevitable question came up, why kill Charlie, the cast refused to answer and just watched him flounder. They seemed to be really enjoying the spectacle. He had no real answer but rambled for a while until Jensen half-heartedly repeated the company line. He was so out of touch with the fans, and I'd guess the cast did not love him.  I was not impressed, especially compared to other show runners I've seen on panels. 

IMO, the Charlie death was ultimately on Carver, but I don't forget that it was the other EP, Bob Singer, who's wife killed off Charlie in her stupid script.  I think Carver was trying to answer for that and couldn't. 

What makes you say the cast didn't love him? Is there some scoop on that?

[auntvi]

No, no scoop. Just that they were laughing at him and the only person who was willing to bail him out was Jensen, and he wasn't very enthusiastic. I agree with you about Singer. 

[SueB]

It would be a backward step for Carver because with Supernatural he inherited a working series as showrunner. Then he had only a season with his OWN creation (Frequency). Yes, it was based on a movie but this was totally his project.  To go back "home" to Supernatural looks like the 30-something moving back into the parent's basement.

Singer was different. He retired.  Coming back out of retirement means 'the show needed him so much, they coaxed him back out of retirement.' 

It's a completely different optic IMO.