Mary Winchester: This Girl is on Fire

[gonzosgirrl]

23 hours ago, catrox14 said:

These are the questions I've been asking since the premiere. 

Where the showrunners have failed IMO, is thinking that making Mary a 'badass' with 'flaws' that is all they needed to do to try and sell her to the audience. The only thing they have done for this viewer,  is make her unlikeable, unsympathetic but worse, uninteresting. Mary is a boring, walking cliche of what Singer, Dabb, Berens and fucking Buckner think is a  "badass chick".   I don't care if she can punch Ketch in the face with brass knuckles. I don't care that she knows how to kill monsters because this was already known given the young Mary we met in the past.

Not showing her discovering the boys' lives was IMO the biggest failing. There was a scene with Mary sitting in the diner in Lawrence but that doesn't tell us much of anything IMO. Sure, they can go with "Leave it to the audience imagination" but IMO that is woefully bad storytelling and dramatically unsatisfying for something SO HUGE as Mary's resurrection. They needed to show us how much she learned from John's journal about how he raised the boys.  Did she visit Missouri? Even if we couldn't get a scene with her and Missouri, I would accept Mary telling the boys that she went to Lawrence to talk to Missouri and see the old house. Give them a 3 minute scene. I want to see their reaction to Mary's reaction

Since we didn't get that, there is no way of knowing what she knows or doesn't know. Even if they were trying to make some kind of gotcha reveal of some character by the end of the season, IMO that would not be satisfying, because they should have planted more seeds to those reveals. They could have peppered in those moments throughout the season. The problem is there isn't even any shorthand, good or bad form, that implies what she knows about them.  For instance, how lovely would it have been to have a scene with Mary and Dean talking about how Dean cooked random things for Sam because Mary and John weren't around to do it. YES I WANT SPECIFICITY about this stuff. 

Sigh. So not only did Mary not know about her sons lives, after MONTHS of being back on earth, the way these writers choose to finally tell her is through a sneering, hateful twat spouting the truth as a form of torture? Seriously, show, fuck you.

[DittyDotDot]

9 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Sigh. So not only did Mary not know about her sons lives, after MONTHS of being back on earth, the way these writers choose to finally tell her is through a sneering, hateful twat spouting the truth as a form of torture? Seriously, show, fuck you.

I don't know how she couldn't of already known, though. She had John's journal and did a her little tour down memory lane. IMO, what Lady Toni told her was stuff she already knew, she just took Mary's rosy glasses off in the telling.

ETA: Although, I'm not so sure Mary had those rosy glasses on as much as Lady Toni thought she did.

Edited May 12, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[bethy]

I'm not sure these particular writers even know that Mary had John's journal? Haven't they basically said they only watch their own episodes? I mean, Sam Smith should know since she got handed it, but is that something you note when a whole scene is built around your not knowing certain information?

[gonzosgirrl]

14 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I don't know how she couldn't of already known, though. She had John's journal and did a her little tour down memory lane. IMO, what Lady Toni told her was stuff she already knew, she just took Mary's rosy glasses off in the telling.

ETA: Although, I'm not so sure Mary had those rosy glasses on as much as Lady Toni thought she did.

Does John's journal have personal things like leaving the boys alone for extended periods of time? Or the responsibilities put on Dean, etc? This is what I was talking about in my post yesterday. If she doesn't know these things after all this time, it's because she hasn't made any effort to actually talk to her sons. Day-tripping around Lawrence isn't going to tell her anything. Having her speak about any of this with the boys would have gone a long way to making her someone I could empathize with, even if she then still had to go off an find herself after. It was all just terribly mishandled, IMO.

[Katy M]

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

Does John's journal have personal things like leaving the boys alone for extended periods of time? Or the responsibilities put on Dean, etc? This is what I was talking about in my post yesterday. If she doesn't know these things after all this time, it's because she hasn't made any effort to actually talk to her sons. Day-tripping around Lawrence isn't going to tell her anything. Having her speak about any of this with the boys would have gone a long way to making her someone I could empathize with, even if she then still had to go off an find herself after. It was all just terribly mishandled, IMO.

Yeah, I doubt that you would write down "yelled at the kids after getting drunk and immediately left them for 6 weeks, blah blah"  And, I doubt that Sam and Dean would volunteer any bad information about John no matter what she asked them.  Unless she backed them into a corner, I'm sure they kept everything pretty positive.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Does John's journal have personal things like leaving the boys alone for extended periods of time? Or the responsibilities put on Dean, etc? This is what I was talking about in my post yesterday. 

Yes, at least in the early days. Like I said in the episode thread, Henry Winchester got the picture from it just fine. He was one entire sadface reading it and not because of the monster/hunting info in it but because of the personal history and the vivid picture it painted. It`s incomprehensible that Mary did not.

And that scene played a 100 % like this was totally new information to Mary. 

Edited May 12, 2017 by Aeryn13

[gonzosgirrl]

Just now, Katy M said:

Yeah, I doubt that you would write down "yelled at the kids after getting drunk and immediately left them for 6 weeks, blah blah"  And, I doubt that Sam and Dean would volunteer any bad information about John no matter what she asked them.  Unless she backed them into a corner, I'm sure they kept everything pretty positive.

It's not only the info about John (though that's what was used last night). Does she know about Dean selling his soul and going to hell for Sam? Does she know Sam went into the cage with Luci? That he was soulless? That Dean was a demon, killed by the effing Scribe of God? So many scenese we were cheated out of, any one of which could've made her a more sympathetic character.

[rue721]

I thought that Toni was saying whatever she could to get under Mary's skin, so how close her description of John or the Winchesters' lives in the 90s was to the actual truth was really just coincidental. Toni also is apparently not happy that Ketch is banging Mary (based on how often it was mentioned), so of course she would attack Mary's man in order to get to her. I think she was trying to get Mary to believe that her taste in men is as bad as Toni's is, lol.

But IMO Toni's description of John did seem like it got under Mary's skin, so Mary is probably going to want to ask about Sam and Dean about it when she "comes to." I think it probably had enough of a ring of truth to her (coincidental or not) that she can't just brush it off. I'll be really interested to see the scene of Mary asking about it (if it happens), because that's more of the kind of thing I was curious about from the start when Mary came back -- their different perspectives on the family's past, on each other, etc.

YMMV but I can 100% believe that Mary wouldn't have interpreted what she read in the journal to mean that John was going into "drunken rages" or whatever, because she loved and trusted him, so she was going to automatically assume the best about him.

I think it's plausible that she would be really shocked at the ideas that he was not a good father and that the boys had a shitty childhood with him. It seems pretty realistic IMO that she would have to be shown/told something pretty extreme and impossible to ignore for the idea that John might have been a bad father to really even occur to her. People can be VERY blind to stuff like that.

[DittyDotDot]

35 minutes ago, bethy said:

I'm not sure these particular writers even know that Mary had John's journal? Haven't they basically said they only watch their own episodes? I mean, Sam Smith should know since she got handed it, but is that something you note when a whole scene is built around your not knowing certain information?

Even if they only watch their own episodes, the entire writer's room read the scripts so they can work out the kinks together. The general ideas and certain stylistic things are due to the individual writers, but the finished script is mostly a group effort. 

28 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Does John's journal have personal things like leaving the boys alone for extended periods of time? Or the responsibilities put on Dean, etc? This is what I was talking about in my post yesterday. If she doesn't know these things after all this time, it's because she hasn't made any effort to actually talk to her sons. Day-tripping around Lawrence isn't going to tell her anything. Having her speak about any of this with the boys would have gone a long way to making her someone I could empathize with, even if she then still had to go off an find herself after. It was all just terribly mishandled, IMO.

I doubt his John's journal says, "neglected my boys again today," nor would I expect Sam and Dean to tell Mary that, but it does paint a rather grim picture of their lifestyle. The early pages especially. Day-tripping around Lawrence could've told her a lot. As far as we know, Missouri is still alive and John's ex-business partner had a pretty good view of John's state of mind after the fire. Add those things with her own childhood experience, except with only one parent instead of two and no network of "family" to help out, and I think Mary already had a pretty good idea of how the boys were raised. She wouldn't know the specifics, but I'd think she probably doesn't need to know the specifics to get the idea.

But, as I've said previously, Mary is completely naive at times and with her in a state of denial of sorts, I guess I could see she might not have put those pieces together.

However, considering that Mary has been hell-bent on getting her kids our of the life, I figured she had figured it out. I see it more as a case of Lady Toni using that information to twist the knife into Mary deeper. I think it maybe helped open Mary's eyes to how far she had her own head up her ass, but not to how the boys were raised, IMO.

Edited May 12, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Aeryn13]

Quote

YMMV but I can 100% believe that Mary wouldn't have interpreted what she read in the journal to mean that John was going into "drunken rages" or whatever, because she loved and trusted him, so she was going to automatically assume the best about him.

To Henry, John was his little boy, one that he felt guilty about leaving behind so IMO he would have an even bigger positive bias towards John than Mary. And I don`t think the journal made him feel mad at John or that John was a bad person but it made him feel such regret for what had happened to the family. Likewise, I would have bought it if Mary felt regretful and guilty but this willful blindness, I can not buy. Unless you read it with no feelings whatsoever for her children and only cared about John.

[catrox14]

50 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Does John's journal have personal things like leaving the boys alone for extended periods of time? Or the responsibilities put on Dean, etc? This is what I was talking about in my post yesterday. If she doesn't know these things after all this time, it's because she hasn't made any effort to actually talk to her sons. Day-tripping around Lawrence isn't going to tell her anything. Having her speak about any of this with the boys would have gone a long way to making her someone I could empathize with, even if she then still had to go off an find herself after. It was all just terribly mishandled, IMO.

There are exceprts from John's jounrnal that are supposedly considered canonical  in which John talks about the boys in detail. If Mary was foolish enough to keep John's journal with her at all times then maybe the BMOL read more than she has to get info to use against her or to manipulate her.

http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=Official_Website

http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=The_Journal_(diary_entries)

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

Even if they only watch their own episodes, the entire writer's room read the scripts so they can work out the kinks together. The general ideas and certain stylistic things are due to the individual writers, but the finished script is mostly a group effort. 

I doubt his John's journal says, "neglected my boys again today," nor would I expect Sam and Dean to tell Mary that, but it does paint a rather grim picture of their lifestyle. The early pages especially. Day-tripping around Lawrence could've told her a lot. As far as we know, Missouri is still alive and John's ex-business partner had a pretty good view of John's state of mind after the fire. Add those things with her own childhood experience, except with only one parent instead of two and no network of "family" to help out, and I think Mary already had a pretty good idea of how the boys were raised. She wouldn't know the specifics, but I'd think she probably doesn't need to know the specifics to get the idea.

But, as I've said previously, Mary is completely naive at times and with her in a state of denial of sorts, I guess I could see she might not have put those pieces together.

However, considering that Mary has been hell-bent on getting her kids our of the life, I figured she had figured it out. I see it more as a case of Lady Toni using that information to twist the knife into Mary deeper. I think it maybe helped open Mary's eyes to how far she had her own head up her ass, but not to how the boys were raised, IMO.

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about though: we weren't shown, or even told, about anything like this. I'm ALL for not leading a viewer by the hand, for nuance and even letting our imaginations fill in the blanks at times. But this is important, character-building stuff and we got none of it. She went to Lawrence and then... she went to Canada to follow up on a child that was not her own.

28 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

There are exceprts from John's jounrnal that are supposedly considered canonical  in which John talks about the boys in detail. If Mary was foolish enough to keep John's journal with her at all times then maybe the BMOL read more than she has to get info to use against her or to manipulate her.

http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=Official_Website

http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=The_Journal_(diary_entries)

Thanks! I have heard of these but never read them. For me, canon is what makes it to the screen, but these are interesting. I had someone comment to me today (IRL) that maybe my disappointment with the show is inevitable, that it has just run its course, but things like this and some of the truly amazing fics I've read tell me that's not so. There are myriad stories to tell and effective ways to tell them - this showrunner and his minions just don't care to do it. The (character) assassination of Mary Winchester proves it for me.

[rue721]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

Likewise, I would have bought it if Mary felt regretful and guilty but this willful blindness, I can not buy.

YMMV, but I think it's plausible that it hadn't even occurred to Mary that John might have been a bad father. She didn't expect that, and she didn't want that, so IMO it's natural that she didn't see that.

Also, as much of a PITA as Samuel was, I actually DO think he was a good father. He seemed to really love Mary and to try and provide for her. Her family actually seemed very conventional and very stable in those flashback episodes, IMO -- which is probably why she was able to make the leap to "normal life" in the first place. So it's not like Mary can necessarily identify or empathize with her sons for how they were brought up. Red flags in the journal might be liable to pass unnoticed by her because of that, too. The kind of parent that John turned out to be and the family life that the Winchesters had (after her death) would probably be pretty foreign and inscrutable to her altogether, regardless of everything she knows about hunting.

I do think that she must have already had an inkling that things weren't sunshine and roses, though, because what Toni said did seem to have a ring of truth to her, and because she's been (supposedly) so desperate to get Sam and Dean out of the hunting life even at this late date.

By the way, I do have a little bit of a problem with the idea that she's actually been trying to get them out of hunting, because she has called them in to hunts before and generally has done nothing but draw them deeper into the hunting life since she's been back -- regardless of her quixotic quest to "rid the world of monsters." THAT I think is willful blindness -- about herself, and her own motives, expectations, etc. I think that she really thinks she wants to rid the world of monsters and "save" her sons, but in truth, IMO she just wants to go back to the comfort of "home" (ie, hunting), because she's overwhelmed and intimidated by the world and family she's been thrust into. (IRL example:  I did the same thing when I went to grad school and was completely overwhelmed and intimidated by it -- I ended up getting a side job at a restaurant and working way too many hours there, because it was a comfortable and familiar environment for me, and a kind of sanctuary from everything else that was going on. At the time, I really believed that I was working (too much) at the restaurant because I needed/wanted the money, but in hindsight, I think it was mostly a way of staying in my comfort zone or "hiding out"). But anyway.

To me, it's hard to blame her for not believing the worst about John, or expecting the worst from him...especially since it's hard for me even as a viewer to know what was going on with his parenting. IMO, even now he comes off like a messed up guy hanging on by his fingernails but honestly trying to do his best by his family more than anything else. YMMV but I'm willing to forgive him of a lot because I do think he was trying and I do think he loved them all. That said, I don't expect others to be as forgiving, though, of course!

[trxr4kids]

8 minutes ago, rue721 said:

YMMV, but I think it's plausible that it hadn't even occurred to Mary that John might have been a bad father. She didn't expect that, and she didn't want that, so IMO it's natural that she didn't see that.

Except that in DSotM Dean's memory was of Mary having to remind John that he had two young sons at home, so for her not to expect that after her bizarre death he might have had issues and the fact that her sons were raised by him alone as hunters seems like willful ignorance IMO.

 

13 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Also, as much of a PITA as Samuel was, I actually DO think he was a good father. He seemed to really love Mary and to try and provide for her. Her family actually seemed very conventional and very stable in those flashback episodes, IMO -- which is probably why she was able to make the leap to "normal life" in the first place.

That is yet another problem with how Mary has been portrayed imo. Her worst nightmare is for her kids to be raised as hunters yet she took time to hunt werewolf because it was unfinished business but didn't give a second thought to the demon deal she made. I would think a sane person would consider that a bigger piece of unfinished business but what do I know.

Also she can't cook, um why? Deanna was shown cooking and serving dinner, surely Mary helped out.  If she didn't take the time to learn because she wanted to be a hunter it wouldn't be contradictory but given that it was the 70's and she just wanted to get married and make babies it makes no sense.

[Katy M]

41 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

Except that in DSotM Dean's memory was of Mary having to remind John that he had two young sons at home, so for her not to expect that after her bizarre death he might have had issues and the fact that her sons were raised by him alone as hunters seems like willful ignorance IMO.

I don't know that a couple having a fight and one of them moving out for a couple of days even remotely translates to bad parent.  Especially if he was a good parent the other 4 1/2 years.  His business partner said "he doted on those kids."  So, that's what she would know.

43 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

That is yet another problem with how Mary has been portrayed imo. Her worst nightmare is for her kids to be raised as hunters yet she took time to hunt werewolf because it was unfinished business but didn't give a second thought to the demon deal she made. I would think a sane person would consider that a bigger piece of unfinished business but what do I know.

Also she can't cook, um why? Deanna was shown cooking and serving dinner, surely Mary helped out.  If she didn't take the time to learn because she wanted to be a hunter it wouldn't be contradictory but given that it was the 70's and she just wanted to get married and make babies it makes no sense.

Yes, I consider pretty much everything about Mary this season to be a pretty major retcon.

[catrox14]

On 5/12/2017 at 10:28 AM, gonzosgirrl said:

Thanks! I have heard of these but never read them. For me, canon is what makes it to the screen, but these are interesting.

Oh I agree. I consider canon to be what's on screen in the text and subtext. 

I was thinking more that maybe the BMOL read his journal and was trying to create a more harsh "John became an abusive parent because of YOU, Mary." narrative  to make her feel worse about her life. If she had one thing to soften the blow was maybe the believe that John loved their children and did what he could to give them a happy life.  Maybe she just can't process the facts very well.

But all that is what I have to head!canon because IMO the show failed to make that clear and I don't think Sam Smith played the nuance of that very well either. I don't entirely fault her because she may not be able to get to the layers of Mary because she's been written in a pretty one dimensional manner IMO. YMMV

 

On 5/12/2017 at 11:34 AM, trxr4kids said:

Also she can't cook, um why? Deanna was shown cooking and serving dinner, surely Mary helped out.  If she didn't take the time to learn because she wanted to be a hunter it wouldn't be contradictory but given that it was the 70's and she just wanted to get married and make babies it makes no sense.

I don't think it's that she can't cook, she just doesn't. And don't even start me on that stupidity because Dean's character suffered because as it turns out he apparently had a latent need for Mary to cook, even though he didn't ask nor demand it or expect it never mind that she is the one that made that declaration in the first place. It's so weird!

Edited May 15, 2017 by catrox14

[rue721]

This isn't about Mary specifically, it's a compilation of articles about the role that mothers play (or don't) in video games. I thought it was pretty fascinating in light of Mary's role on SPN, though, and how they've changed that role/character (so much) this year. Wondering what everyone else thinks:

http://www.metafilter.com/166971/There-is-a-persistent-belief-that-mothers-are-defined-by-that-role

[Wayward Son]

I know most on here aren't big fans of Mary but I did LOVE this

[Aeryn13]

That scene had such a slapstick look, though. On the one hand we`re supposed to fear recently-released archangel Lucifer and on the other he just stands there like a doofus while Mary hits him repeatedly with some enchanted gadgets. He can snap his fingers and make her evaporate.

[Wayward Son]

3 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

That scene had such a slapstick look, though. On the one hand we`re supposed to fear recently-released archangel Lucifer and on the other he just stands there like a doofus while Mary hits him repeatedly with some enchanted gadgets. He can snap his fingers and make her evaporate.

I'm going to assume that the man of letters device dampened his power in the same way it appeared to dampen Castiel's when they fought against the female of letters (I can't remember her name) earlier in the season. 

[Katy M]

4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

That scene had such a slapstick look, though. On the one hand we`re supposed to fear recently-released archangel Lucifer and on the other he just stands there like a doofus while Mary hits him repeatedly with some enchanted gadgets. He can snap his fingers and make her evaporate.

But, if he does that, she won't be trapped with him.  I mean, realistically speaking, he could have snapped is fingers and taken out Sam and Dean anything after coming back last season. He could have done it season 5, but it made sense that he wouldn't have wanted to.

Crowley could have, at any time, back before they were besties, taken his hand and broke their necks from across the room.

And, I find it hard to believe that leviathans couldn't eat them when they didn't know one thing they were vulnerable to until episode 6. 

If Ketch had half a brain, he would have killed Dean before pulling the whatchamacallits off his forehead and Dean would have never known what hit him. 

So, basically what I'm saying is there are tons of examples, not just on this show, but any suspense show of any kind where the bad guy could easily kill the good guy but doesn't because that would be the end.

[SueB]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

But, if he does that, she won't be trapped with him.  I mean, realistically speaking, he could have snapped is fingers and taken out Sam and Dean anything after coming back last season. He could have done it season 5, but it made sense that he wouldn't have wanted to.

Crowley could have, at any time, back before they were besties, taken his hand and broke their necks from across the room.

And, I find it hard to believe that leviathans couldn't eat them when they didn't know one thing they were vulnerable to until episode 6. 

If Ketch had half a brain, he would have killed Dean before pulling the whatchamacallits off his forehead and Dean would have never known what hit him. 

So, basically what I'm saying is there are tons of examples, not just on this show, but any suspense show of any kind where the bad guy could easily kill the good guy but doesn't because that would be the end.

AKA Bad-guy monologuing.  Although in Lucifer's case, I really think he wants to do what he did to Rowena (beat them down, smash on their heads, set them on fire).  Just twisting their neck is insufficient for him.  And he's got the juice to probably pull it off (most of the time).  Although Lucifer is FLAT OUT STUPID to underestimate the Winchesters. 

[Katy M]

Just now, SueB said:

Although Lucifer is FLAT OUT STUPID to underestimate the Winchesters. 

Especially since they locked him up once, and would have locked him up a second time had Crowley not interfered.   And apparently they've locked him up a third time.

[DittyDotDot]

9 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Action-wise, they pimped her pretty hard. She took down Dean easily in the Premiere, then she saved him. There was this scene with Ketch and the stop-watch and even he was impressed by her. She took out a vamp`s nest by herself whereas Cas stumbled as a hunter. 

I rolled my eyes at it but I`m forced to admit she was way more of a badass than Dean in Season 12.   

Well, I didn't see her badass when she took down Dean, it's not like they were really in a fight. She was reacting and Dean wasn't. And, Ketch being impressed by Mary killing a vampire with a ray gun only shows how unimpressive the Brits were if he'd never seen anyone else point and shoot before. 

8 hours ago, bethy said:

Yeah, I thought the whole point of a number of her scenes was to show that she was a good hunter and a "badass." (Personally, I'm really done with the use of "badass" by television people to indicate a woman is strong and capable because it seems to have everything to do with being able to physically overwhelming someone, when I personally believe that strong and capable works itself out in a lot of different ways. Harumph.) I'm not sure I actually bought her as some great hunter, but I felt like they spent a fair amount of time telling me she was. 

Really? To me they showed me time and time again that Mary was, at best, only competent. I mean, I can't even think of a hunt we saw her on that wasn't a disaster of some sort. When she had the Brit's tech she seemed to be able to hold her own, but she was completely out of her depth most the time without it. And, I can't say I saw that she had many instincts either. She was working closely with the Brits for months and didn't catch on to their shadiness, not to mention how she had no idea what a psycho Ketch was after all their hunts--and other activities--together. 

Maybe I just don't understand what a badass is?

7 hours ago, CluelessDrifter said:

I think the point is that it would have been good to see some of this guilt, and it's source.  Why did she feel guilty?  Because she died?  Because her sons became hunters?  

I thought we did see it from the very beginning. It wasn't simply because she died, but because she'd made the deal that ended up torpedoing their lives. I thought they showed it to us quite a bit, myself and I thought that was the main reason--not the only reason, mind you--she ran away from them and kept them at arms length was that she couldn't handle them being so forgiving and welcoming when she didn't feel she deserved their forgiveness. I also thought the reason she signed up with the Brits in the first place was she thought she could "fix" what she'd broken by giving Sam and Dean a life without hunting. It also had the added benefit of keeping her busy so she wouldn't have to face herself while also keeping her away from Sam and Dean so she didn't have to face them. 

6 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I still think they missed a golden opportunity to show Mary's return journey to Lawrence.  I always said I prefer quality over quantity.   So I wouldn't have minded in the episode was Sam and Dean light. (With JA and JP's limited schedule, it could have freed up some time). 

Or show her reading the journal and seeing a flashback ep to early days after Mary died.  They could have cast young Dean and Sam. 

I agree. I didn't need it to understand Mary, but I think it could've been some interesting story to see. I've always thought it would be interesting to see those early days of John being ushered into the hunting life while also trying to care for wee Sam and Dean. I realize JDM isn't available, but I think Matt Cohen could do John's early hunting days quite easily. It would've only been five years after The Song Remains the Same.

[Katy M]

6 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I agree. I didn't need it to understand Mary, but I think it could've been some interesting story to see. I've always thought it would be interesting to see those early days of John being ushered into the hunting life while also trying to care for wee Sam and Dean. I realize JDM isn't available, but I think Matt Cohen could do John's early hunting days quite easily. It would've only been five years after The Song Remains the Same.

But, then that would mean that JOhn's aging process would have gone from looking like Matt Cohen to looking like JDM to looking like MC again.  That would be weird.  I'd almost rather have a completely different actor, if that's our choice.

[bethy]

6 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Really? To me they showed me time and time again that Mary was, at best, only competent

Well, like I said, I didn't actually see her as particularly badass, but my perception from what was said about her - both on the show and by directors or writers or producers - was that she was supposed to be a really good hunter.  Maybe I'm  misremembering that, but that was the impression I got. That all the characters thought she was good. And I was supposed to think the same thing. Which I didn't.

Edited to add: I did some searching to double check my memory and found these:

https://www.tvinsider.com/131592/supernatural-mary-winchester-samantha-smith-interview/

http://www.ibtimes.com/supernatural-season-12-spoilers-misha-collins-talks-castiels-relationship-mary-2429414

http://www.thetvaddict.com/2016/07/24/supernatural-season-12-spoilers-comic-con-press-room/

Edited August 3, 2017 by bethy
Sources!

[CluelessDrifter]

On 8/3/2017 at 5:57 AM, DittyDotDot said:

Maybe I just don't understand what a badass is?

It's possible that you may not.  Or maybe you do, and are missing what the others were saying when they say that the show was propping up her badass skills to excess, because nothing we saw would indicate she was the best, but we were told she was, and it was implied?

I guess you can explain Ketch being impressed that Mary could kill a vampire with a ray gun by saying that the BMOL had never seen anyone shoot anything in the history of ever until that point, or you could take into account that Ketch himself was meant to be a badass, the anti-Dean, and he was impressed with her skills:

"Ketch: As I've said many, many, so many times, we don't need them. We already have the best Winchester."

Toni said, "We see her as one of our best killers."  It's just they had to realign her, so she'd do what she was told instead of having a conscience.   If they didn't think she was an asset, they would have just killed her instead of doing this. Toni also said this: "Mummy always was a talented Hunter. Just somewhat confused about obeying orders."
 

I wouldn't say her completing the vampire hunt for Cas was her being more of a badass, necessarily, but that she was better at the investigation side of things.  I think he's always had a partner for that, even if it's Crowley.  I agree that Mary started off a little shaky with the spirit in The Foundry, but we did see her 'instincts' being better than the Sam and Dean's on a routine case, and it's not like either one or the other hasn't run into problems on just about every hunt in some way or another, including spirit possession/influence.  How she came across in The Asa Fox episode was that she hadn't given up hunting and had indeed been a badass before she died with the way she was presented in the opening, and I think it's a setting we were supposed to see her returning to that now that she was out there on her own and hunting again.

(Too bad they didn't bother to explain what the hell she was doing for 10 years when she knew Azazel would be coming back, especially considering that she knew Azazel's name and originally thought Ramiel was him.)

On 8/3/2017 at 5:57 AM, DittyDotDot said:

I thought we did see it from the very beginning. It wasn't simply because she died, but because she'd made the deal that ended up torpedoing their lives. I thought they showed it to us quite a bit, myself and I thought that was the main reason--not the only reason, mind you--she ran away from them and kept them at arms length was that she couldn't handle them being so forgiving and welcoming when she didn't feel she deserved their forgiveness. I also thought the reason she signed up with the Brits in the first place was she thought she could "fix" what she'd broken by giving Sam and Dean a life without hunting. It also had the added benefit of keeping her busy so she wouldn't have to face herself while also keeping her away from Sam and Dean so she didn't have to face them. 

But she knew nothing about their lives.  She seemed shocked when Toni told her that it hadn't all been puppies and rainbows because of the changes in John.  She certainly knew nothing about what they'd been up against in the last 12 years, because she was solely going off of John's journal.  Sure, it was obvious she felt guilty about them being hunters.  It's something I think most would have expected given how a younger version of her reacted to finding out her sons grew up to be hunters in The Song Remains the Same, but she didn't listen to either of her sons saying that they were okay with their lives; Dean because they make the world a better place, and Sam because it's what his family does.  She made her choice to work with the BMoL, because she was attempting to make decisions for her sons the way a mother might interfere to stop her children from being something she didn't want them to be (Getting rid of all the monsters, so they wouldn't have to hunt, something I know she blames herself for them becoming).  But that didn't happen until after the midseason break, and up until that point, her reason for leaving was that she needed some time away to process things, because she didn't fit into being alive anymore, per both she and Billie.  Namely, she preferred her Heaven memories to real life, which is understandable, but we really should have seen her journey, and we should have seen her getting to know her sons and seeing their lives (maybe one of them could have gotten hurt on the job in front of her), so we could understand where some of this guilt was coming from if we were going to be told a story that was more than surface level at best.  I think she was primarily going off of her experiences with hunting and dislike for hunting in general rather than what was really in front of her to experience this 'guilt.'

Edited August 4, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[Wayward Son]

While I understand why the show went with Samantha Smith I still wish they'd made use of Amy Gumenick instead. IMO she was the better overall actress and her youthful appearance would have better sold the idea of Mary, as a young woman in her late twenties trying to find her way in a world where her sons are older than her. 

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, CluelessDrifter said:

It's possible that you may not.  Or maybe you do, and are missing what the others were saying when they say that the show was propping up her badass skills to excess, because nothing we saw would indicate she was the best, but we were told she was, and it was implied?

I'm not missing what you're saying, I'm disagreeing with your assessment of it. I think if they wanted Mary to be badass, we would've seen her being badass. We didn't. As I've said many times before, just because a character THINKS something is true, doesn't mean it is. If I took everything said by characters on this show as truth, Dean would be a born killer and Sam would be a monster. 

1 hour ago, CluelessDrifter said:

I guess you can explain away Ketch being impressed that Mary could shoot and kill a vampire with a ray gun being because the BMOL had never seen anyone shoot anything until that point, or you could take into account that Ketch himself was meant to be a badass, the anti-Dean, and he was impressed with her skills:

"Ketch: As I've said many, many, so many times, we don't need them. We already have the best Winchester."

Toni said, "We see her as one of our best killers."  It's just they had to realign her, so she'd do what she was told instead of having a conscience.   If they didn't think she was an asset, they would have just killed her instead of doing this. Toni also said this: "Mummy always was a talented Hunter. Just somewhat confused about obeying orders."

Personally, I tend to discount the crazy villains opinions, they usually don't have the right end of the stick on these things. Of course Ketch and Toni thought Mary was the best Winchester; Sam and Dean were pains in their asses, while Mary wasn't--well not until the very end, anyway.

1 hour ago, CluelessDrifter said:

But she knew nothing about their lives.  She seemed shocked when Toni told her that it hadn't all been puppies and rainbows because of the changes in John.  She certainly knew nothing about what they'd been up against in the last 12 years, because she was solely going off of John's journal.  Sure, it was obvious she felt guilty about them being hunters.  It's something I think most would have expected given how a younger version of her reacted to finding out her sons grew up to be hunters in The Song Remains the Same, but she didn't listen to either of her sons saying that they were okay with their lives; Dean because they make the world a better place, and Sam because it's what his family does.  She made her choice to work with the BMoL, because she was attempting to make decisions for her sons the way a mother might interfere to stop her children from being something she didn't want them to be (Getting rid of all the monsters, so they wouldn't have to hunt, something I know she blames herself for them becoming).  But that didn't happen until after the midseason break, and up until that point, her reason for leaving until she started working for the BMoL was that she needed some time away to process things, because she didn't fit into being alive anymore, per both she and Billie.  Namely, she preferred her Heaven memories to real life, which is understandable, but we really should have seen her journey, and we should have seen her getting to know her sons and seeing their lives (maybe one of them could have gotten hurt on the job in front of her), so we could understand where some of this guilt was coming from if we were going to be told a story that was more than surface level at best.  I think she was primarily going off of her experiences with hunting and dislike for hunting in general rather than what was really in front of her to experience this 'guilt.'

As I said, ONE of the reasons I believe she ran away was because of her guilt. I think she also felt she didn't fit and she also couldn't deal with suddenly having these two grown men calling her mom. And, I think she also couldn't deal with looking at her sons and only seeing her worst nightmare come true. I only specifically addressed the guilt because I responding to the comments that asserted we didn't see Mary having any guilt all season. For me, I saw it from the beginning when she asked how she would ever be able to face Sam. If she didn't feel guilty, then why was she worried about facing Sam?

BTW, before this turns into a "more proof that Mary--and the show--only cares about Sam" thing, I don't think it was Mary saying Sam was the only one she'd hurt, but Mary had already faced Dean, so that wasn't her worry right then.

Edited August 3, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Pondlass1]

I just think they should have taken the Mary story in a different direction.  Maybe place the character  at the bunker living with her sons ,  learning about their lives. Being proud.  Maybe going on a few hunts and getting a taste for hunting again and maybe even rescuing them in an episode.  Gradually introducing her as a natural born hunter with natural hunting instincts (genes which were passed along to her sons).

Instead they jumped right into the  oh look at her...she's such a badass, she works alone and enjoys sex on black satin sheets.  She's Jane Bond!!

John I get.  John lost it.  But he had passion and motive.  

John was not a victim of contrived writing.  Mary on the other hand.......

[bethy]

49 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

As I've said many times before, just because a character THINKS something is true, doesn't mean it is. If I took everything said by characters on this show as truth, Dean would be a born killer and Sam would be a monster. 

But did the Jensen say that Dean was a born killer or did Jared say that Sam is a monster?  I honestly don't know the answers to those questions, but for me there's a difference between Cas calling Sam a monster in the context of the story but Jared not saying "Oh, yeah, Sam's a monster" and a situation where characters and actors are characterizing a particular character one way. So when Cas called Sam a monster, I took that as Cas reacting to what Sam had done, not necessarily as an indication that the show intended me to think that Sam was actually a monster.

From what I've read and heard, I feel like the show intended for me to think that Mary was a badass. We're in agreement, I think, that on screen she was not.  For me, that means that as a character, she wasn't particularly successful. And the character being unsuccessful had an impact on how I evaluated Dean's reaction to her (going back to where this started in the Dean thread). 

[CluelessDrifter]

21 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I'm not missing what you're saying, I'm disagreeing with your assessment of it. I think if they wanted Mary to be badass, we would've seen her being badass. We didn't. As I've said many times before, just because a character THINKS something is true, doesn't mean it is. If I took everything said by characters on this show as truth, Dean would be a born killer and Sam would be a monster. 

And I would say that given Sam Smith's limited experience with stunt work, that we were shown to the best of her capabilities that Mary was meant to be a badass by her actions (We saw her in the opening of the Asa Fox episode being one.  Even her fight with Ketch in Something About Mary had her coming out on top right up until her humanity showed through, and she didn't finish him off but turned her back on him), and there is such a thing as an unreliable narrator, but when all you have is what you're shown on screen and don't take into account anything anyone says about a person, especially when there's more than one person saying it, then I think there's a lot to the story you're missing.

21 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Personally, I tend to discount the crazy villains opinions, they tend to not usually have the right end of the stick on these things. Of course Ketch and Toni thought Mary was the best Winchester; Sam and Dean were pains in their asses, while Mary wasn't--well not until the very end, anyway.

What about all the things many of the villains on this show from Azazel to Crowley have said about the Winchesters?  Their hubris typically lets them down, and they often say a lot of rubbish to let us know exactly how much think of themselves, but there is often a hint of truth to what they're saying at times too.  Was there nothing to what Azazel said about how Dean saw his position in the family?  Are we not supposed to think highly of the Winchesters when Crowley says that when the world is ending, he places his bets on them, just because it's what he thinks?  When Meg says that the Winchesters have serious abandonment issues, are we not supposed to think they do?  When Meg says she apprenticed under Alistair and could make Crowley do whatever she wants, are we only supposed to believe it because Dean says she could?  I think disregarding the opinions of characters, even if they're villains, removes a big chunk of the show, and the quote I took from Ketch in my previous post wasn't even directed at Mary.  He was talking to Mick, which I would think means it's really what he thinks, and since he is her partner, most likely has a reason to think it.

21 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

As I said, ONE of the reasons I believe she ran away was because of her guilt. I think she also felt she didn't fit and she also couldn't deal with suddenly having these two grown men calling her mom. And, I think she also couldn't deal with looking at her sons and only seeing her worst nightmare come true. I only specifically addressed the guilt because I responding to the comments that asserted we didn't see Mary having any guilt all season. For me, I saw it from the beginning when she asked how she would ever be able to face Sam. If she didn't feel guilty, then why was she worried about facing Sam.

BTW, before this turns into a "more proof that Mary--and the show--only cares about Sam" thing, I don't think it was Mary saying Sam was the only one she'd hurt, but Mary had already faced Dean, so that wasn't her worry right then.

In the quote you took from my post before the last one, I was saying that we needed to see the guilt being expressed and the source of it, meaning that there needed to be something meatier for it to manifest the way that it did, not that she didn't have any guilt.  It's clear that she felt shocked and appalled that she'd allowed her sons to become hunters when they visited her in the past, so it was never something she was going to accept easily, but her guilt in season 12 wasn't for anything more specific than the simple idea that they were hunters, because she didn't know anything more about them.  If they'd even hinted at the idea that for 10 years, she prepared for Azazel, but it wasn't enough, and her last memory was watching Azazel bleed into Sam's mouth, or that she'd ignored the deal and hadn't done anything about it, then maybe I could understand her being unable to face Sam, but we didn't get an answer to that, or if it was even either one of those things, because it wasn't mentioned once.  I am a big fan of show and not unnecessary monologues or dialogue to tell me something (This show has become increasingly worse about in recent years), but a few lines of dialogue here and there wouldn't have gone amiss, or a scene with her revisiting her past, or learning something from John's journal.  It's fine if you have a closed off character join a show, because peeling back the layers of that character can be interesting, but those layers have to be peeled back, and there was no peeling until 12.22.  Even her reaction after Dean broke her out of her head didn't lead me to think that there would be anything more forthcoming from her.  It comes across as very shallow and is a disservice to Mary to deconstruct her and not give us anything resembling a fully realized character in return.  I think it's part of the reason she was so disliked by however many disliked her.  Now if they start building her up in season 13, then I'll consider it a good thing, and I'm willing to give it a chance, but I think for some fans, it may be too little, too late.

Edited August 4, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, bethy said:

but Jared not saying "Oh, yeah, Sam's a monster" and a situation where characters and actors are characterizing a particular character one way. So when Cas called Sam a monster, I took that as Cas reacting to what Sam had done, not necessarily as an indication that the show intended me to think that Sam was actually a monster.

From what I've read and heard, I feel like the show intended for me to think that Mary was a badass. We're in agreement, I think, that on screen she was not.  For me, that means that as a character, she wasn't particularly successful. And the character being unsuccessful had an impact on how I evaluated Dean's reaction to her (going back to where this started in the Dean thread). 

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.  As far as I'm concerned, if it doesn't happen on screen, it didn't happen.  I don't care all that much what the actors and writers say off the show.  So, just by going what I saw on the show, here's my take on Mary's "bad-assery."   She was a perfectly fine hunter for a 19 year old girl working with her dad.  I'm not meaning that as dismissive as it sounds.  She didn't like the life, so she got out (oversimplifying, of course), and married John.  Then, apparently she did a complete 180 and decided she couldn't live without hunting (retcon, IMO) and became a horrible mother while she left her young child at home and went on a werewolf hunt in Canada, of all places.  So, unless she flew and knew exactly where the werewolf was, went straight to it and killed it, she was gone 3 days at least, I would say. No idea how she sold that to John. Anyway, there may have been another hunt or two.  She died.  She came back. Her first order of business was to help save her younger son from a psycho kidnapper.  When given the chance to kill said psycho killer and save now both her sons.  She doesn't.  Not badass. 

Her next order of business is The Foundry hunt.  I don't think her lack of tech skills and social awkwardness in a whole new world when she's been for 30 years has any bearing on her badassness, and is completely understandable, so I won't touch that.  She did have better instincts than S&D on that one, but that also seemed OOC for them. Esepcially Sam, to be so dismissive.  But, anyway, when she went to the Foundry the first time,  Sam and Dean had to save her.  And, she got possessed the second time.  Could have happened to anyone, but didn't make her seem super special, IMO.

We next see her in Celebrating the Life of Asa Fox.   She tries to kill Jodie/demon, but Sam and/or Dean stop her. Nothing all that nonbadass or incompetent there.  Not much to work with for assessment purposes.

First Blood.  We don't actually see her hunting the vampires.  I don't like it when any hunter is able to single-handedly take out a vamp nest.  Seems unrealistic. But, yes, that does attest to her skills.  They said it happened. So, it happened.  We have no reason to think that was a lie. 

Stuck in the Middle with You.  We mostly just seeing lying from her this epi.  The boys do most of the hunting/killing.

Family Feud.  yes, all she's doing is using a gadget.  Anybody could use a gadget. I feel I could have done that.

The Raid.  I feel like Sam did most of everything while the BMOLs stood around looking scared.  Mary ran out to get the Colt or something, I think.

The British Invasion.  All I remember is her having sex with Ketch in that epi.

Twigs and Twines. She did take down Ketch until he pulled out his taser.  So, I'll totally give that to her.  But, she shouldn't have been in that position in the first place.  She should have made an excuse and gotten out of Dodge when she first overheard him on the phone.

There's Something about Mary.  Mind control or not, she took down that hunter pretty easily

Who We Are.  She apparently killed at least one hunter, but let Jodie take her down. Killed Ketch, but he was distracted by Dean at the time.

So, in conclusion, I would say that the show was trying to show her as a bad ass and sometimes was more successful than others.  My main problem with that, is that realistically, she just can't pass for 30 and (not to be sexist, but women do age differently than men), I just don't see a 50 year old woman as being able to take down men and monsters in hand to hand combat.

[catrox14]

I think she's been referenced as being a badass (whether they use the term badass or not, they spoke of her in that manner) by other characters  on the show, both heroes and villains and by the actress herself, the other actors, and the showrunners. That is what they were selling with Mary. Now whether their sales pitch worked is up to the viewers perspective but I do think that the intention on the part of the show itself,  was that Mary Winchester is a badass hunter.

They had Mary come out of being knocked out in time to save Dean and Cas from BMOL Henchbitch in the premiere and they had her save Dean and Sam from Lady SheDead and she had a pretty good fight with her. Yes she got taken down by the spellwork but that doesn't make her not a badass, just like Sam and Dean have been taken out by spell work from time to time and they are still badass. She was shown out hunting in the past and saving a little boy from a monster who grew up to be a hunter, Asa Fox, because of "badass" Mary. She was shown throwing down with Ketch (not sex LOL) and when she punched him in the nuts with the brass knuckles and then punched Lucifer back into the Rift. 

If SM is worth including in this discussion of the perception of Mary as a badass, on Twitter, under the Supernatural hashtag, there were many, many fans who used the term 'badass;' for Mary. I think Mary had badass moments whether that makes her a "badass" is in the eye of the beerholder, like most things on this show. LOL

Edited August 3, 2017 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, bethy said:

But did the Jensen say that Dean was a born killer or did Jared say that Sam is a monster?  I honestly don't know the answers to those questions, but for me there's a difference between Cas calling Sam a monster in the context of the story but Jared not saying "Oh, yeah, Sam's a monster" and a situation where characters and actors are characterizing a particular character one way. So when Cas called Sam a monster, I took that as Cas reacting to what Sam had done, not necessarily as an indication that the show intended me to think that Sam was actually a monster.

Wait, I'm confused. I'm not at all talking about what is being said outside of the show, As far as I'm concerned if it didn't happen on the show, it didn't happen. My comments were in response to believing everything a character says on the show as truth. For instance, if we're supposed to be believing that Mary is the best Winchester and totally badass too boot because Ketch and Toni said so, but we were actually shown the complete opposite, doesn't that mean that Dean is in fact a born killer since many characters--Toni and Ketch included--have said he's a born killer despite us being shown the opposite time and time again? 

For me, what a character says is only fact when that's what I'm seeing to be true as well. If the tell and the show don't line up then I think you have to take into consideration who is talking and their own point of view. Ketch and Toni see Mary as the best Winchester IMO because, one, the Brits don't actually hunt and don't know what a competent hunter looks like. Two, because Mary was being a compliant hunter and doing what she was told--which is how they prefer their hunters--instead of being a pain in their collective asses like Sam and Dean were. And three, they had preconceived notions of who they believed Sam and Dean were before they even met them. Their own bias against Sam and Dean is driving them to think Mary is the best Winchester. IMO, that doesn't mean that's truth or that the show was saying that Mary was in fact better than Sam or Dean. 

Basically, until the show actually shows me Mary is a good hunter with good instincts, I'm no going to believe the words of a couple lunatics and assume she is.

57 minutes ago, Katy M said:

So, just by going what I saw on the show, here's my take on Mary's "bad-assery."   She was a perfectly fine hunter for a 19 year old girl working with her dad.  I'm not meaning that as dismissive as it sounds.  She didn't like the life, so she got out (oversimplifying, of course), and married John.  Then, apparently she did a complete 180 and decided she couldn't live without hunting (retcon, IMO) and became a horrible mother while she left her young child at home and went on a werewolf hunt in Canada, of all places.  So, unless she flew and knew exactly where the werewolf was, went straight to it and killed it, she was gone 3 days at least, I would say. No idea how she sold that to John. Anyway, there may have been another hunt or two.  She died.  She came back.Her first order of business was to help save her younger son from a psycho kidnapper.  When given the chance to kill said psycho killer and save now both her sons.  She doesn't.  Not badass. 

Her next order of business is The Foundry hunt.  I don't think her lack of tech skills and social awkwardness in a whole new world when she's been for 30 years has any bearing on her badassness, and is completely understandable, so I won't touch that.  She did have better instincts than S&D on that one, but that also seemed OOC for them. Esepcially Sam, to be so dismissive.  But, anyway, when she went to the Foundry the first time,  Sam and Dean had to save her.  And, she got possessed the second time.  Could have happened to anyone, but didn't make her seem super special, IMO.

We next see her in Celebrating the Life of Asa Fox.   She tries to kill Jodie/demon, but Sam and/or Dean stop her. Nothing all that nonbadass or incompetent there.  Not much to work with for assessment purposes.

First Blood.  We don't actually see her hunting the vampires.  I don't like it when any hunter is able to single-handedly take out a vamp nest.  Seems unrealistic. But, yes, that does attest to her skills.  They said it happened. So, it happened.  We have no reason to think that was a lie. 

Stuck in the Middle with You.  We mostly just seeing lying from her this epi.  The boys do most of the hunting/killing.

Family Feud.  yes, all she's doing is using a gadget.  Anybody could use a gadget. I feel I could have done that.

The Raid.  I feel like Sam did most of everything while the BMOLs stood around looking scared.  Mary ran out to get the Colt or something, I think.

The British Invasion.  All I remember is her having sex with Ketch in that epi.

Twigs and Twines. She did take down Ketch until he pulled out his taser.  So, I'll totally give that to her.  But, she shouldn't have been in that position in the first place.  She should have made an excuse and gotten out of Dodge when she first overheard him on the phone.

There's Something about Mary.  Mind control or not, she took down that hunter pretty easily

Who We Are.  She apparently killed at least one hunter, but let Jodie take her down. Killed Ketch, but he was distracted by Dean at the time.

Well, I think I have different readings of most those situations.

I don't think she had better instincts than Sam and Dean in The Foundry, everyone was wrong about that one, if I recall properly. For me, it's not so much she got possessed and needed saving--these things happen--but it's why she went in there alone in the first place. That was a bad instinct on Mary's part, IMO. 

Can't comment on whether the vampire nest in First Blood was badass or not because we didn't see it. Maybe she was able to poison the entire nest's water supply with dead man's blood and she lopped off their heads while they were comatose. I wouldn't call that particularly badass, myself, although I would say it was a smart way to take on a nest of vampires by one's self, so I doubt that's what she did.

Stuck in the Middle With You is the episode where I really saw that Mary wasn't a very good hunter. She relied on the intel from the Brits instead of doing her own legwork and that's what got them in trouble. I think her planning and leadership skills--not to mention her own instincts--sucked ass, instead of kicking ass.

From that point on, she's mostly relying on the tech which I don't see as badass, myself.

So, if Mary is meant to be the bestest hunter ever... .

Personally, I think the show is intending for Mary to be competent enough to be Sam and Dean's mother, but also out of her depth enough that she doesn't over-shine them. I just never saw any badassery from Mary. I saw her luck out a lot, but never did I see her actually being a badass. However, like most things, badassery is in the eye of the beholder.

Edited August 3, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Katy M]

3 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Personally, I think the show is intending for Mary to be competent enough to be Sam and Dean's mother, but also out of her depth enough that she doesn't over-shine them. I just never saw any badassery from Mary. I saw her luck out a lot, but never did I see her actually being a badass. However, like most things, badassery is in the eye of the beholder.

Well, like I said, I think the show was trying to say she was a badass, but for the most part, not doing a particulary good job of showing it.  So, I don't know that we're too far apart in view.  And just for the record, SAm and DEan luck out a lot, too:)  As for The Foundry, Mary didn't think the little boy ghost was the killer and wanted to look into it more, and I found it very very OOC that Sam would just just brush her off like that.

[bethy]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.  As far as I'm concerned, if it doesn't happen on screen, it didn't happen.  I don't care all that much what the actors and writers say off the show. 

And that's fine. What I was trying to get across in my own post was that's NOT how I view the show. I do take into account what the people who are creating the show tell me they're trying to do. You had quoted me when you brought the discussion over here, so I was trying to explain my own perspective. We just have different approaches to how we watch. 

Edited August 3, 2017 by bethy
Clarity

[Aeryn13]

The producers/writers (and the actress) very clearly wanted to portray Mary as a badass fighter. Yes, badassery can, technically, be displayed in other ways but with Mary they clearly went for the physical side of it.  

The PTB said so numerous times, about Mary being an ultra-badass, that is. If they were successful? Well, yes and no. I have to take into account that this show isn`t really very stunt- and action-heavy. Compared to, say, Arrow, noone on Supernatural is a badass. There is a difference between getting maybe one or two badass scenes sprinkled over the entire Season or throwing down like a mofo multiple times in every single episode. 

But for Supernatural`s standards they showed enough of Mary expertly kicking ass that I`m forced to concede the point of her badassery.

That, on top of that, they felt it necessary to hammer the point home in dialogue and do the usual over-the-top propping is also Supernatural`s standard. It makes for an annoying viewing experience and it kinda defeats the purpose because if you have to prop a character that much, you can`t feel too confident in whatever you want to convey to come across naturally and organically. 

As a result, yes, I think they had enough scenes to play her as a badass but either not enough or way too many (however you want to look at it) to warrant this going ga-ga over her both in interviews as well as by other characters in the show. As nearly always, they overshot their target. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

11 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

not to mention how she had no idea what a psycho Ketch was after all their hunts--and other activities--together. 

Borrowing sugar, Triple D!  She was only borrowing sugar.  ;)

3 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

While I understand why the show went with Samantha Smith I still wish they'd made use of Amy Gumenick instead. IMO she was the better overall actress and her youthful appearance would have better sold the idea of Mary, as a young woman in her late twenties trying to find her way in a world where her sons are older than her. 

I couldn't agree with this more.

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

She was shown throwing down with Ketch (not sex LOL)

LOL!  And now I think I have an alternate euphemism for "borrowing sugar".  :)

[catrox14]

53 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Basically, until the show actually shows me Mary is a good hunter with good instincts, I'm no going to believe the words of a couple lunatics and assume she is.

 

I'm not seeking to change your opinion here on whether you think Mary was actually a badass or not. I think the disconnect is that I (and maybe some others, not that I am speaking for them) are saying that even if viewers don't see her as a badass the show does and that is what they were attempting to portray even if it failed.  

FWIW, there are more than villains and crazy people referring to Mary as being badass, if not in those exact words.

Dean said she did a good job in the Foundry despite her impressions.  Maybe Dean was being nice, but I don't think so. I think he was being supportive.  Dean knows that even the best hunters (him and Sam) can be taken down for a little while by the things they battle. It's not as though Dean and Sam don't need help or don't make mistakes. Sometimes they save themselves and sometimes they save each other and other people save them. I don't think that means the show is saying in the narrative that Dean and Sam are no longer badass because they have help at times.

Quote

Dean: Well, you gonna take a shower? Take a nap? You really went through it today.

Mary: No, I'm okay.
Dean: And, um..listen, apologies if, uh, me and Sam hijacked or sidelined you in any way. I mean, this was your case, you know? And...well, you kicked ass. Again.
Mary: I kicked ass? YOU saved ME. I –
Dean: Yeah, but you were right. You know, those kids WERE innocent. I mean, hell, we didn't even know what Moriarty's deal was.

[catrox14]

ETA: IMO badass doesn't mean the badass  always wins or never needs help, or don't have human foibles or occasional failures or even do unscrupulous things to complete their mission. Badass characters IMO can be both heroic, anti-heroes and even villains.  Abaddon IMO qualifies as a badass even though she's a villain.

So to that end, IMO they did put that across to some extent with Mary.  My grumble was they got her to "badass"  at the expense of Dean, Sam and Cas instead of building her street cred on her own in the present more than they did.

IMO, they thought they were deconstructing the myth of Mary, well at least Dean's Mary Myth, which I've always thought was bunk in the first place.  To me, they didn't lay enough ground work for me to buy that Dean mythologized after her s4. I can believe he did prior to that, but IMO once he met her in the past and saw just how human she was when they hunted together,  and when he saw her make the deal for John's life, that whatever mythologizing he did prior to that evaporated pretty quickly. I think he saw her as a fully formed human with faults and foibles; a full person.  Why Dabb decided that Dean was still mythologizing her IMO makes little narrative sense for Dean. And it's not as though Dean forgot the MAJOR EVENTS of meeting her because the show had Dean actually mention it to Mary when he was giving her the basics of her life after her resurrection.  It's also why the 12.22 narrative fails for me because it required again that the show ignore major past events between Dean and Mary, but that's another rant for another time. LOL

I would have preferred that they actually showed Mary doing some hunting on her own AFTER the Foundry. I, too,  would have liked to see her go to Lawrence and maybe go on a couple of hunts, there alone where maybe she almost died, and maybe didn't catch the monster, which would have  explained why she joined with the BMOL in the first place. Maybe they did explain that via some exposition and I've forgotten, or through subtext and I'm a blockhead that didn't get it.

Still, in the end, I never had the impression that the show wanted me to think she was not badass and IMO why they showed her kind of getting off on ray gunning a monster to death. IMO, she enjoyed using the toys because it made her feel like she COULD wipe out all the monsters and achieve her goals. 

IMO, they did  too little, too much and too late in fits and starts and it made her arc not that great.

Edited August 3, 2017 by catrox14
grammar and incomplete thoughts.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I, too,  would have liked to see her go to Lawrence

Normally yes because it should have made for good character exploration but I was so disappointed by her baffling lack of awareness. I mean, the show said that at some point she read the damn journal. And we know it isn`t solely filled with descriptions of monsters John encountered and how to kill them but also filled with some tidbits here and there about their family. 

Henry Winchester read parts of it and got everything just fine. He looked crestfallen about the picture the diary painted of the life the Winchesters had, what became of John as a person and as a father after his death. 

Meanwhile Mary reads it and is waxing poetic about John, only to later be told what kind of life her sons had and looked like she never could have guessed. I mean, at the very least it was clear from the book that they didn`t grow up like even her. With a somewhat stable family home base but in a transient lifestyle. They weren`t just raised as hunters, it was a lot more than that. And Lady Deadeyes seriously needs to tell her that while Mary looks dumbstruck? Is she the dumbest person on Earth or something to not have gotten that before? I don`t mean running away from the truth, denying it but not GETTING it. 

I was in no way a fan of Dean only talking about Sam in that dream world but at least he spelled out some things about their lifes after her death. Looked like she needed that. Though that was one of those scenes where her acting completely faltered for me. She still looked like "buzzuh?" Seriously, they had a crappy childhood and Dean was a parentified child, how freaking hard is that to grasp? Of course not getting it also precluded the other part I would have liked in that scene, some sympathy. Maybe an acknowledgment. Before she readily got forgiven with no effort on her part.  

[DittyDotDot]

5 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I'm not seeking to change your opinion here on whether you think Mary was actually a badass or not. I think the disconnect is that I (and maybe some others, not that I am speaking for them) are saying that even if viewers don't see her as a badass the show does and that is what they were attempting to portray even if it failed.  

I understand what you're saying, believe me I do, I'm just saying I don't have the same opinion of the situation. I don't think they were meaning to show her the bestest, best hunter at all, but I think they were purposely showing Mary out of her depth. I think they wanted her to be competent enough to have grown up in the life, but I think they also wanted her to be floundering quite a bit and taking most the season to catch up.

[Wayward Son]

I have no idea what the writers intended, but IMO what we got on screen portrayed Mary as similar to the brothers in s1-3. She's a good hunter, maybe even a great one, when it comes to the every day stuff like ghosts, vampires etc. However, the big stuff like higher level demons, angels etc are completely out of her league. That's the area where her sons shine. 

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I understand what you're saying, believe me I do, I'm just saying I don't have the same opinion of the situation. I don't think they were meaning to show her the bestest, best hunter at all, but I think they were purposely showing Mary out of her depth. I think they wanted her to be competent enough to have grown up in the life, but I think they also wanted her to be floundering quite a bit and taking most the season to catch up.

 

I know you don't care what the showrunners have to say and it doesn't alter your perspective, I'm just curious what you make of them saying Mary is a badass hunter. Like how do you reconcile those things which seem to be completely opposite? Not in a challenging way I'm just curious. 

[DittyDotDot]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I know you don't care what the showrunners have to say and it doesn't alter your perspective, I'm just curious what you make of them saying Mary is a badass hunter. Like how do you reconcile those things which seem to be completely opposite? Not in a challenging way I'm just curious. 

Personally, I haven't heard any of TPTB say Mary is a badass hunter. I know a lot of people keep claiming that's what TPTB said, but IMO, a lot of what gets said by TPTB gets taken out of context and twisted into something it wasn't meant to be by the fans quite a bit. 

BTW, It's not that I don't care what they have to say, it's just that I take it all with a grain of salt and rely on what I see on screen. I find their comments very interesting, but it's art and art is subjective, IMO.

[CluelessDrifter]

17 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I have no idea what the writers intended, but IMO what we got on screen portrayed Mary as similar to the brothers in s1-3. She's a good hunter, maybe even a great one, when it comes to the every day stuff like ghosts, vampires etc. However, the big stuff like higher level demons, angels etc are completely out of her league. That's the area where her sons shine. 

This is an interesting take.  I guess she's roughly in the age range Dean was then (I think she's meant to be 28).  How much she was hunting during her retirement isn't really known, and Dean never took any time off the way she did, but I'd say she's supposed to be roughly around his skill level in seasons 1-3.  I'm not sure how she maintained that skill level though.  And she was the one to punch Lucifer into the other universe.  How she handles that now that she's there on her own, I guess we'll see.  :)

[Aeryn13]

I think the writers overall used easy shorthands to portray her as a badass. That very first scene with Dean where she easily took him down and held him on the ground, that was shown at Comic Con, wasn`t it? Sure, one can say in context Dean wasn`t even trying to fight her and all that but I don`t think that`s the writers though process. A scene like this is textbook as a simplistic badass trope for a woman. And that`s what they often, even most of the times do, use very simple tropes, known clichés and textbook approaches. IMO that scene was supposed to introduce Mary in a certain way and be a template for how she was supposed to be.

These are the same writers who seemed honestly taken aback by the reaction to Charlie`s death. When a cursory glance to social media could have told them how that one was gonna go. And now people like Singer are kinda sheepish about it and go "hm, yeah, that worked out differently than we thought." They are not even the only writers/showrunners to fall into that trap. There are only a few now who regularly interact with fans on social media who are aware what kind of narrative direction will draw what reaction.

But with the Mary thing, I really do believe the writers mind`s would be blown if they learned that some people didn`t buy her as a supreme badass. And that all the scenes that can/do get held up as examples for this would leave them dumbstruck because that was never their intention. Not when they put in so many of the usual tropes to convey "badass". 

Which, to be fair, works IMO fairly well with the general audience that isn`t involved with fandom. Tropes are tropes for a reason, they do work. And if you repeat some specific dialogue enough, it doesn`t matter if the show matches the tell, the point of the "tell" gets across, both positively and negatively. I would be as gobsmacked as the writers would probably be if the casual viewing audience didn`t come away from Season 12 thinking Mary is a supreme badass. A bitch maybe but also a kickass fighter.   

I`m talking casual watchers here like people who after 12 years have finally learned to tell which brother is which. That might seem like it would be impossible but I personally knew someone who still had problems remembering the older brother was named Dean and the younger brother Sam, even after watching roughly five Seasons. They would take one look at that first scene with Mary I described above and slot her as "badass" in their head, even after possibly forgetting who she was.   

 

Quote

Dean never took any time off the way she did, but I'd say she's supposed to be roughly around his skill level in seasons 1-3.  I'm not sure how she maintained that skill level though. 

IMO it`s pretty random. Dean last Season was far below the skill level he himself used to be in Seasons 1-3 and there was no reason for it either. So Mary not at all being rusty made as much aka as little sense as that. 

Edited August 3, 2017 by Aeryn13

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Personally, I haven't heard any of TPTB say Mary is a badass hunter. I know a lot of people keep claiming that's what TPTB said, but IMO, a lot of what gets said by TPTB gets taken out of context and twisted into something it wasn't meant to be by the fans quite a bit. 

BTW, It's not that I don't care what they have to say, it's just that I take it all with a grain of salt and rely on what I see on screen. I find their comments very interesting, but it's art and art is subjective, IMO.

In this case it's not fans taking things out of context re Mary being a badass hunter.  Two of the articles posted by bethy have Misha and Samantha literally using the term 'badass' WRT to Mary. And the use of "strong female ass kicking characters" by the showrunners IMO is akin to 'badass hunter'.

But regardless of what they said in interviews, I would still think they were pushing the "badass" hunter narrative, just with how she was portrayed. Fighting the BMOL in the first two episodes. The way she carries herself. I dunno, the lying, her attitude with doing the scam to steal the Colt and getting away with it. Her threatening Ketch. IMO all that was "badass lite" behavior, to communicate yes Mary is a badass.   That's why I would have preferred to see her hunting on smaller things alone to set up, her stealing the Colt and lying to everyone. I just needed her to earn her bona fides they were doing via shortcuts.

Anyway, like you said, it's all art and everyone digests it differently.

[Wayward Son]

21 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

This is an interesting take.  I guess she's roughly in the age range Dean was then (I think she's meant to be 28).  How much she was hunting during her retirement isn't really known, and Dean never took any time off the way she did, but I'd say she's supposed to be roughly around his skill level in seasons 1-3.  I'm not sure how she maintained that skill level though.  And she was the one to punch Lucifer into the other universe.  How she handles that now that she's there on her own, I guess we'll see.  :)

IMO the show tends to portray hunting as an innate set of skills for people who've been brought up in the life and so they are easily picked back up again. For instance IMO Sam wasn't portrayed as overly rusty and dramatically worse than Dean back in season one. This in spite of the fact Sam had spent the last four years living a completely normal life at Stanford, while Dean had spent that time honing his skills. And as for Lucifer, was her feat really all that impressive? She was wearing the Enochian Brass Knuckles, which are known for weakening the strength of angels and landed a few punches before Lucifer grabbed on to her and pulled her through the portal with him.