Endgame Discussion and Speculation

[Eyes High]

4 hours ago, GrailKing said:

It will be interesting to see how Sansa deals with Danni, I think she will be harder to win over then Arya, and then she and Jon will have to get the North behind it.

I agree. Arya will be easily won over by a Targ warrior queen with her own dragons who adores Jon. I expect Sansa will be suspicious and distrustful at first (not to mention angry at Jon), but I'm sure she'll get over it.

 

8 hours ago, GraceK said:

I honestly was not trying to take a stab at Dany. My previous posts are clearly Pro Dany... I love the girl. I will defend her to the death lol :) 

i was just hoping for more of a reaction. I don't need crying and blubber...epic rage would have sufficed. At least taking aim for the NK on the way out or something. I honestly think it has more to do with Emilia rather than the character. 

Yeah, fair enough. "Stoic" is hard to pull off without appearing wooden.

On the whole, I think GOT really shows what good acting can do to elevate less-than-stellar material.

[GrailKing]

On 8/26/2017 at 2:17 PM, ShellsandCheese said:

Drogon better survive, that’s all I got.

 

On 8/26/2017 at 2:40 PM, domina89 said:

That's how I feel about Ghost...

Magic must come to an end, and either people tied to magic die or they loose their abilities.

Dragons are definitely magic and should be gone, along with the COTF and their abilities.

People like Mellisandre, Dondarion, Bran, Jon, Danni , FM, NK, and Arya all either must die or be affected in some way .

Direwolves, aren't so much magical ; as they are actual existing creatures in ASOIAF, and our world history so maybe the wolves survives.

[GraceK]

5 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

 

Magic must come to an end, and either people tied to magic die or they loose their abilities.

Dragons are definitely magic and should be gone, along with the COTF and their abilities.

People like Mellisandre, Dondarion, Bran, Jon, Danni , FM, NK, and Arya all either must die or be affected in some way .

Direwolves, aren't so much magical ; as they are actual existing creatures in ASOIAF, and our world history so maybe the wolves survives.

Why ? I'm curious as to why you think that Magic Must Die.  This is a fantasy universe, I don't see why the ending of the series has to mean the end of magic or mystical things.

Edited September 23, 2017 by GraceK

[GrailKing]

5 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Why ? I'm curious as to why you think that Magic Must Die. 

It's a qoute from Leaf, in the books::

Leaf:  Gone down into the earth … Into the stones, into the trees. Before the First Men came all this land that you call Westeros was home to us, yet even in those days we were few. The gods gave us long lives but not great numbers, lest we overrun the world as deer will overrun a wood where there are no wolves to hunt them. That was in the dawn of days, when our sun was rising. Now it sinks, and this is our long dwindling. The giants are almost gone as well, they who were our bane and our brothers. The great lions of the western hills have been slain, the unicorns are all but gone, the mammoths down to a few hundred. The direwolves will outlast us all, but their time will come as well. In the world that men have made, there is no room for them, or us.

Edited September 23, 2017 by GrailKing

[GraceK]

1 minute ago, GrailKing said:

It's a qoute from Leaf, in the books::

Leaf:  Gone down into the earth … Into the stones, into the trees. Before the First Men came all this land that you call Westeros was home to us, yet even in those days we were few. The gods gave us long lives but not great numbers, lest we overrun the world as deer will overrun a wood where there are no wolves to hunt them. That was in the dawn of days, when our sun was rising. Now it sinks, and this is our long dwindling. The giants are almost gone as well, they who were our bane and our brothers. The great lions of the western hills have been slain, the unicorns are all but gone, the mammoths down to a few hundred. The direwolves will outlast us all, but their time will come as well. In the world that men have made, there is no room for them, or us.[

Thanks for the quote! That's a bummer though :(  maybe that will be the bittersweet ending, the end of magic. I hope not though!!' 

[GrailKing]

On 8/29/2017 at 10:15 AM, Francie said:

Dany gives birth to Jon's baby and, after dying, Tyrion takes the child, being the one to know the true father.

If anyone takes care of the child, I think it be Sansa, maybe Tyrion and Sansa together, maybe; but no way a Lannister alone is getting that child, the child is 1/2 Stark.

[screamin]

On 9/21/2017 at 9:53 PM, WindyNights said:

 

What I think GRRM's Jaime is going to do is kill Cersei in a jealous rage for Cersei sleeping with other men( and I think GRRM wants to draw a parallel here to the modern abusive boyfriend and how Cersei didn't actually deserve to be killed for that). And I think that the moment he kills Cersei is the moment he closes the book forever on redemption

His death is going to be the same in both versions though or that's what I think. To me, Robert Strong/Ungregor exists to kill Jaime immediately after he murders his sister. The symbol of Lannister brutality murders Tywin's golden heir. Cersei's protector, which was Jaime's last identity, kills him and his new identity(Goldenhand the Just).

 

Honestly, I don't think Book Jaime is going to kill Cersei in a jealous rage. I just reread the last chapters Jaime and Cersei were in together. Jaime has already been told by Tyrion that Cersei has cheated on him with other men. He broods on it while she berates him for not being the obedient puppet she wants him to be, while she mocks him and denigrates him. But he doesn't react with anger then. He doesn't throw his suspicions in her face and furiously demand the truth. He mentions in his thoughts that he's angry about the news of her infidelity, but his thoughts are mainly occupied with yearning to sleep with her again and nostalgia for the way their relationship used to be, and no longer is. Then he goes off to Lancel and gets the confirmation of what he's already suspected is the truth. He doesn't, in a furious rage,  go back to KL and kill Cersei in a jealous tantrum. He wearily continues with what he perceives as his duty as a Lannister. IIRC, there's not even much anger in his reaction to receiving Cersei's message summoning him back to KL, and his refusing it. 

After all that calm, I think that the time is past that Book Jaime would kill Cersei for sleeping with other people in a jealous rage. IMO, the books show clearly that he's not that man anymore - if indeed he was ever the kind of man who WOULD kill Cersei for sleeping with someone else -  after all, this is the man who stood at Robert's door guarding his life while Robert had sex with Cersei. I think that Book Jaime will kill Cersei for the greater good the way he killed Aerys for the greater good, not because of his own wounded vanity. IMO, the show is just speeding up the process of Jaime's redemption so we can root for a guy who chooses the good thing over the evil thing, instead of feeling increasing disgust for a toady who relentlessly kisses the ass and slavishly obeys an increasingly evil woman who brought his son to suicide, uncaring of the evil. But IMO, both Book Jaime and Show Jaime will end up in the same place of redemption.

[Eyes High]

11 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

If anyone takes care of the child, I think it be Sansa, maybe Tyrion and Sansa together, maybe; but no way a Lannister alone is getting that child, the child is 1/2 Stark.

Assuming Jon and Dany both die and leave a child behind (and I'm not sold yet), Sansa makes the most sense. Bran's the 3ER, Arya's likely going to head west of Westeros or wherever, and Sansa at least has a blood tie to the child (which Tyrion would not, unless there's a last-minute A+J=T reveal). It would also lead to a Cat/Sansa parallel, or really more of a Ned/Sansa parallel, where she would be raising the child of a beloved relative. The assumption that Tyrion would raise Jon and Dany's child by himself baffles me. 

[GrailKing]

On 9/7/2017 at 5:12 PM, screamin said:

He could probably set sharp pointy bits of obsidian in nice spear and dagger handles.

Or with Sam's help forge them with steel to get something better, lighter and stronger.

[screamin]

Just now, GrailKing said:

Or with Sam's help forge them with steel to get something better, lighter and stronger.

I don't think obsidian is forgeable. It's a brittle stone, not a metal.

[GrailKing]

2 minutes ago, screamin said:

I don't think obsidian is forgeable. It's a brittle stone, not a metal.

heated hot enough, it melts, and in this verse, it has magical properties, can't be forged like metal, but it can be changed or change something else.

[GrailKing]

On 9/10/2017 at 8:41 PM, GraceK said:

That doesn't make any sense for me. I can understand if Jaime kills Cersei for the greater good, but I don't think he would purposely kill his child no matter what. I think they are just saving the miscarriage for season 8 for dramatic contrast with Daenarys being pregnant.

the red weddings murder of Talisa was abhorrent for a reason. The utter horror of a pregnant woman being stabbed in her stomach on purpose was supposed to be a viceral tragedy. I cannot see Jaime Lannister doing that to his own child and twin sister, or anything similar. Especially if we are supposed to consider him redeemable or a flawed hero at the end of it all.

Except, do we know it's Jamie's ?, now that we've been told she's been seeing Euron behind Jamie's back.

Does Jamie now believe the child his after Cersei said she was with Euron without his knowledge?

[GraceK]

17 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Except, do we know it's Jamie's ?, now that we've been told she's been seeing Euron behind Jamie's back.

Does Jamie now believe the child his after Cersei said she was with Euron without his knowledge?

Im pretty sure it's Jaimes. I don't think cersei slept with Euron. It's open to interpretation from Jaimes perspective maybe, but as an audience member I feel pretty secure in thinking that it's Jaimes. She may have plotted with Euron behind Jaimes back but I would bet a lot that she wouldn't sleep with him. Even when she cheated on him it was with other Lannisters, and this season she only got turned on after murdering  someone in revenge and it was Jaime she sought out. She also only promised marriage to Euron after the war is won, and I don't think she would even sleep with before hand unless it was somehow beneficial to her.

I mean , anything is possible, and if the writers wanted to go that route I'm sure they would find a way...I just find highly unlikely.

 

edited to add:: she also said she planned to acknowledge Jaime as th father publicly...if there was even a chance it was Eurons kid, I think Euron would NEVER give up his kids claim to the iron throne. He would kill her himself if that was his child and she was gonna pass it off as someone else's.

 

edited to add lol::  Cersei is also a liar, and of course anything she says is open to interpretation. I'm just going off what I have seen , and with what we are shown, I think it's actually Jaimes kid. Cersei is a narcissist, it's a Lannister child she wants. I don't think she ever planned to actually Marry Euron.

Edited September 23, 2017 by GraceK

[MarySNJ]

On 8/29/2017 at 5:22 PM, Wouter said:

If any of the Starks told a lie (with the best intentions, such as protecting Lyanna's reputation) then it is far more likely to be Benjen, who took the black after the war was over.

It is also worth noting that the war only started after Aerys demanded Neds' and Roberts' head - not after the supposed abduction and not even directly (mafter Brandon and Rickard's death at the hand of Aerys.

I think there was a rumor that Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna at the time that she disappeared* but it was the scorned man, Robert, who perpetuated the rumor that Rhaegar "kidnapped and raped" Lyanna for all the years that followed. I think his ego just could not allow him to admit that she would rather elope with another man than marry him. 

*I wonder if there was actually a raven sent to Lyanna's brother and/or father letting them know that Rhaegar had eloped with Lyanna. Whether she went willingly or not wouldn't matter. He was an older, married man and they could easily blame him for it and it would still be considered an abduction that ruined her reputation and sullied the honor of House Stark.

I could be misremembering but I thought  the big 3 Shocker! moments that GRRM told D&D about were the burning of Shireen, the fact that the Children of the Forest created the Others and Hodor's name being "Hold the door" although the story of how the latter will happen in the books is apparently different. 

Am I the only one who does not want anymore main characters to die (except Cersei who has it coming)? We've been promised a "bitter sweet" ending to the books, and hopefully the TV series. Bittersweet is in the eye of the beholder but in my opinion, the book series and to a lesser extent the tv show have been giant platters full of bitterness with the tiniest morsels of sweet. I assume worse is yet to come what the war for the dawn. If the ending involves losing the a bunch of  characters we've grown attached to and are rooting for on top over everything they've all suffered, that will not be bittersweet; just bitter. Your mileage may vary.

[MadMouse]

Last holy shit moment, flashback of Mel talking to Rhaegar about Azor Ahai. He doesn't believe he is and once he's dead neither does she. But it is the truth, Lyanna is Nissa Nissa and Jon is Lightbringer.

Edited September 23, 2017 by MadMouse

[herbz]

12 hours ago, MarySNJ said:

I think there was a rumor that Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna at the time that she disappeared* but it was the scorned man, Robert, who perpetuated the rumor that Rhaegar "kidnapped and raped" Lyanna for all the years that followed. I think his ego just could not allow him to admit that she would rather elope with another man than marry him. 

*I wonder if there was actually a raven sent to Lyanna's brother and/or father letting them know that Rhaegar had eloped with Lyanna. Whether she went willingly or not wouldn't matter. He was an older, married man and they could easily blame him for it and it would still be considered an abduction that ruined her reputation and sullied the honor of House Stark.

I could be misremembering but I thought  the big 3 Shocker! moments that GRRM told D&D about were the burning of Shireen, the fact that the Children of the Forest created the Others and Hodor's name being "Hold the door" although the story of how the latter will happen in the books is apparently different. 

Am I the only one who does not want anymore main characters to die (except Cersei who has it coming)? We've been promised a "bitter sweet" ending to the books, and hopefully the TV series. Bittersweet is in the eye of the beholder but in my opinion, the book series and to a lesser extent the tv show have been giant platters full of bitterness with the tiniest morsels of sweet. I assume worse is yet to come what the war for the dawn. If the ending involves losing the a bunch of  characters we've grown attached to and are rooting for on top over everything they've all suffered, that will not be bittersweet; just bitter. Your mileage may vary.

I'm with you 100%. Cersei and Euron obviously have to go, whatever, and I'm resigned to Melisandre and Varys too. I guess they're not really main characters. But I really don't want a bloodbath. I'm hanging on to the fact that GRRM called the ending of LOTR 'bittersweet' and that has much more sweet than bitter IMO. As long as Jon doesn't end up Frodo. 

I do think the dragons are gone unfortunately, because I'm not sure they fit in a post war Westeros. They're gorgeous and lovely but they're also magical weapons of mass destruction. I think their main purpose in being awakened is for the Long Night. I hope I'm wrong because I will cry if they die. I'm more attached to them than a couple of fan favorite main characters :p 

Edited September 24, 2017 by herbz

[SimoneS]

22 hours ago, GraceK said:

I honestly was not trying to take a stab at Dany. My previous posts are clearly Pro Dany... I love the girl. I will defend her to the death lol :) 

i was just hoping for more of a reaction. I don't need crying and blubber...epic rage would have sufficed. At least taking aim for the NK on the way out or something. I honestly think it has more to do with Emilia rather than the character. 

I'm just telling myself it was pure shock that she was going for. Which also makes sense...this is the first loss since Drago and her baby, I can see her shutting down emotionally in the moment.

also I am way to attached to the Dragons and Dire wolves :) 

I thought Emilia went for Dany shock in that moment which she pulled off. She left Jon when she saw the NK about to throw the spear at Drogon so she did choose him over Jon. She then broke down when Jon said that he was sorry and reached for her hand. I do wish that they had shown Dany's connection to Viserion and Rhaegal more, especially since they were planning to kill him. 

 

11 hours ago, GrailKing said:

 

Magic must come to an end, and either people tied to magic die or they loose their abilities.

Dragons are definitely magic and should be gone, along with the COTF and their abilities.

People like Mellisandre, Dondarion, Bran, Jon, Danni , FM, NK, and Arya all either must die or be affected in some way .

Direwolves, aren't so much magical ; as they are actual existing creatures in ASOIAF, and our world history so maybe the wolves survives.

So Martin is unapologetically ripping off Tolkein. How does it work in his world? Are all the humans touched by magic going to hop on a ship and sail off to Martin's version of the Undying Lands? No wonder he cannot finish this story. 

Edited September 24, 2017 by SimoneS

[GrailKing]

27 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

How does it work in his world?

I guess we'll have to wait and see.

[Eyes High]

48 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

So Martin is apologetically ripping off Tolkein. How does it work in his world? Are all the humans touched by magic going to hop on a ship and sail off to Martin's version of the Undying Lands? No wonder he cannot finish this story. 

I think anyone who writes fantasy is ripping off Tolkien one way or another, but if the "all things magical must leave the world" ending holds, that doesn't bode well for a number of major characters.

[SimoneS]

56 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I think anyone who writes fantasy is ripping off Tolkien one way or another, but if the "all things magical must leave the world" ending holds, that doesn't bode well for a number of major characters.

I have always said that the people writing science fantasy are more or less writing their own LOTR, but Martin is the pretentious one who criticizes others for doing the exact same thing that he is doing. 

It occurs to me is the magic leaving just Westeros or Martin's Version of Earth? I mean what is to stop Lord of Light and the Many-Faced God from bestowing magic on humans whether they want it or not or are they heading off on that ship as well? In any case, I don't buy that most of these so-called predictions are really prophecies or are interpreted accurately by the characters or the books' readers. I wonder if Martin just sticks many of them in his books to troll his fans. 

Edited September 24, 2017 by SimoneS

[domina89]

On 9/23/2017 at 2:45 PM, MadMouse said:

Last holy shit moment, flashback of Mel talking to Rhaegar about Azor Ahai. He doesn't believe he is and once he's dead neither does she. But it is the truth, Lyanna is Nissa Nissa and Jon is Lightbringer.

I'm not sure if that will be the last shocking moment, but I do believe Jon is Lightbringer.  There is an interesting essay on westeros.org outlining this theory (be forewarned, there's only 2 of the 3 parts posted which may annoy completionists) and it is very detailed and researched.  Here are the links for anyone interested:

Part One: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/103266-r-l-lightbringer-updated-with-part-ii/#comment-5374706 

Part Two: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/103266-r-l-lightbringer-updated-with-part-ii/&page=7#comment-5468583

[BlackberryJam]

On 9/23/2017 at 11:53 AM, screamin said:

Honestly, I don't think Book Jaime is going to kill Cersei in a jealous rage. I just reread the last chapters Jaime and Cersei were in together. Jaime has already been told by Tyrion that Cersei has cheated on him with other men. He broods on it while she berates him for not being the obedient puppet she wants him to be, while she mocks him and denigrates him. But he doesn't react with anger then. He doesn't throw his suspicions in her face and furiously demand the truth. He mentions in his thoughts that he's angry about the news of her infidelity, but his thoughts are mainly occupied with yearning to sleep with her again and nostalgia for the way their relationship used to be, and no longer is. Then he goes off to Lancel and gets the confirmation of what he's already suspected is the truth. He doesn't, in a furious rage,  go back to KL and kill Cersei in a jealous tantrum. He wearily continues with what he perceives as his duty as a Lannister. IIRC, there's not even much anger in his reaction to receiving Cersei's message summoning him back to KL, and his refusing it. 

After all that calm, I think that the time is past that Book Jaime would kill Cersei for sleeping with other people in a jealous rage. IMO, the books show clearly that he's not that man anymore - if indeed he was ever the kind of man who WOULD kill Cersei for sleeping with someone else -  after all, this is the man who stood at Robert's door guarding his life while Robert had sex with Cersei. I think that Book Jaime will kill Cersei for the greater good the way he killed Aerys for the greater good, not because of his own wounded vanity. IMO, the show is just speeding up the process of Jaime's redemption so we can root for a guy who chooses the good thing over the evil thing, instead of feeling increasing disgust for a toady who relentlessly kisses the ass and slavishly obeys an increasingly evil woman who brought his son to suicide, uncaring of the evil. But IMO, both Book Jaime and Show Jaime will end up in the same place of redemption.

The only time Jaime acts in a jealous rage is when he bitchslaps Ronnet Connington for insulting Brienne. The rest of his Riverlands journey is him moping Jon Snow style. He thinks about hurting Cersei, because that's what people do when they are getting over a breakup, but he doesn't actually do anything to her.

Same with Lancel. He's standing there with one of Cersei's affair partners and has no rage at all. He gives Lancel some good advice and feels sorry for him. There's no rage happening. 

If Jaime kills Cersei it will be in defense of others, not in rage. But I still don't think he's going to do it. Nothing reliable in the books, and I mean nothing, points that way. The books all point to Jaime leaving Cersei and going off with Brienne, which is what he has actually done in the books, and sort of done in the show. 

[OhOkayWhat]

On Fri Sep 22 2017 at 0:59 PM, WindyNights said:

It's not a problem but it's less interesting to me.

I think a story about failed redemption is more unique than a story about actual redemption.

Different persons, different narrative preferences. I understand that.

[Eyes High]

In the discussions about Jon's fate, posters on other boards drew my attention to this passage from ACOK. Jon protests that he always knew Robb would be Lord of Winterfell, and Mormont responds thus:

Quote

Mormont gave a whistle, and the bird flew to him again and settled on his arm. "A lord's one thing, a king's another." He offered the raven a handful of corn from his pocket. "They will garb your brother Robb in silks, satins, and velvets of a hundred different colors, while you live and die in black ringmail. He will wed some beautiful princess and father sons on her. You'll have no wife, nor will you ever hold a child of your own blood in your arms. Robb will rule, you will serve. Men will call you a crow. Him they'll call Your Grace. Singers will praise every little thing he does, while your greatest deeds all go unsung. Tell me that none of this troubles you, Jon . . . and I'll name you a liar, and know I have the truth of it."

We all know what happened to Robb. Could this passage indicate that Jon will get everything Mormont thought Robb would get as king? The beautiful princess, the sons, the title?

[MarySNJ]

27 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

In the discussions about Jon's fate, posters on other boards drew my attention to this passage from ACOK. Jon protests that he always knew Robb would be Lord of Winterfell, and Mormont responds thus:

We all know what happened to Robb. Could this passage indicate that Jon will get everything Mormont thought Robb would get as king? The beautiful princess, the sons, the title?

Interesting. Of course, I think it would be fitting and GRRM does like to drop these kind of hints. By the end of ADWD, Jon is unaware that Robb named him heir in his will, albeit without knowledge that Arya, Bran and Rickon were still alive. And at this point in the books, Jon's true parentage is only hinted at. Assuming it goes the same way as the show - as expected, he's arguably heir to two thrones. The way things go in this book series, he'll probably learn about the will and his parentage right before he's killed.

Sorry to be pessimistic but I want Jon to survive the war, have a chance to rebuild - whether as king or a lord and to have the wife and children but I don't think I'm going to get my wish because GRRM doesn't seem to be about "happy" endings. 

[Eyes High]

21 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

Interesting. Of course, I think it would be fitting and GRRM does like to drop these kind of hints. By the end of ADWD, Jon is unaware that Robb named him heir in his will, albeit without knowledge that Arya, Bran and Rickon were still alive. And at this point in the books, Jon's true parentage is only hinted at. Assuming it goes the same way as the show - as expected, he's arguably heir to two thrones. The way things go in this book series, he'll probably learn about the will and his parentage right before he's killed.

Sorry to be pessimistic but I want Jon to survive the war, have a chance to rebuild - whether as king or a lord and to have the wife and children but I don't think I'm going to get my wish because GRRM doesn't seem to be about "happy" endings. 

I've gone back and forth so many times on whether Jon will die or be endgame king that I don't even know anymore. The only thing I am reasonably sure of is that it's one or the other.

[MadMouse]

This is more book related but I always felt like Jon and Dany just leaving together to find the house with the red door and everyone thinks they're dead could happen. Obviously they couldn't do that exactly on the show but some variation of it could work.

After the last battle everyone thinks they're dead and is mourning. But Sam sees two dragons flying off towards the East.

[Eyes High]

34 minutes ago, MadMouse said:

This is more book related but I always felt like Jon and Dany just leaving together to find the house with the red door and everyone thinks they're dead could happen. Obviously they couldn't do that exactly on the show but some variation of it could work.

After the last battle everyone thinks they're dead and is mourning. But Sam sees two dragons flying off towards the East.

I had thought of that. The Princess and the Queen seems to hint at something similar happening with Daemon and his lover Nettles (Nettles disappeared with her dragon Sheepstealer, and there are rumours that Daemon survived and went to find her): 

Quote

That Prince Daemon died as well we cannot doubt. His remains were never found, but there are queer currents in that lake, and hungry fish as well. The singers tell us that the old prince survived the fall and afterward made his way back to the girl Nettles, to spend the remainder of his days at her side. Such stories make for charming songs, but poor history.

I'd like to think that Jon and Dany have too great a sense of responsibility and honour to fake their own deaths. It's not only dishonourable, it's downright cruel to their loved ones. If Jon and Dany were to peace out and find a quiet place to raise their Targ baby, I would hope they would at least give their loved ones a heads up about what they were doing.

The biggest problem with this theory is why GRRM would give Jon and Dany parallel ruling arcs in ADWD if he never intended them to apply that knowledge as king and queen.

Edited September 25, 2017 by Eyes High

[MadMouse]

32 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I'd like to think that Jon and Dany have too great a sense of responsibility and honour to fake their own deaths. It's not only dishonourable, it's downright cruel to their loved ones. If Jon and Dany were to peace out and find a quiet place to raise their Targ baby, I would hope they would at least give their loved ones a heads up about what they were doing.

The biggest problem with this theory is why GRRM would give Jon and Dany parallel ruling arcs in ADWD if he never intended them to apply that knowledge as king and queen.

See, I read that and Aemon's speech comes to mind. I never saw it as him telling Jon that as some code to live by but as a warning, you'll do the same. People are selfish and after all the hardships they've been through already and will face could you really blame them for leaving together.

It looks like they rule be ruling individually until they have to ally with each other. 

Edited September 25, 2017 by MadMouse

[herbz]

Jon and Dany leaving to raise a family in peace would be just about the happiest ending imaginable for them. That ugly chair is a curse. Winning the Game of Thrones is no victory at all. They'd only do it if there was a truly viable third candidate that the realm would accept though, both of them would probably view leaving as selfish otherwise. 

[Eyes High]

2 hours ago, herbz said:

Jon and Dany leaving to raise a family in peace would be just about the happiest ending imaginable for them. That ugly chair is a curse. Winning the Game of Thrones is no victory at all. They'd only do it if there was a truly viable third candidate that the realm would accept though, both of them would probably view leaving as selfish otherwise. 

Even if there were a third candidate, wouldn't it be equally selfish to leave the throne to that candidate, knowing full well how burdensome ruling is? And really, who's left who could possibly fill that role? 

I don't see Jon or Dany as the type to bail because they're over it. Dany in particular has two large armies (the Unsullied and the Dothraki) loyal only to her and unlikely to follow anyone else; unless they both get destroyed in the war, is she just going to ditch them so that she can have a romantic happy ending with Jon? The Dothraki in particular would present a big problem. Who's going to keep them from raping and pillaging their way through Westeros if Dany isn't around to keep them in line?

Edited September 26, 2017 by Eyes High

[herbz]

5 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Even if there were a third candidate, wouldn't it be equally selfish to leave the throne to that candidate, knowing full well how burdensome ruling is? And really, who's left who could possibly fill that role? 

I don't see Jon or Dany as the type to bail because they're over it. Dany in particular has two large armies (the Unsullied and the Dothraki) loyal only to her and unlikely to follow anyone else; unless they both get destroyed in the war, is she just going to ditch them so that she can have a romantic happy ending with Jon? The Dothraki in particular would present a big problem. Who's going to keep them from raping and pillaging their way through Westeros if Dany isn't around to keep them in line?

I don't see it at all tbh, was just musing out loud. 'Bittersweet' would be them ruling but hating it. I'm of the opinion that they'll both die or both rule from what they set up in S7. One living while the other dies would just be too tragic, and I'm not even a huge fan of the pairing on screen. 

Edited September 27, 2017 by herbz

[Eyes High]

59 minutes ago, herbz said:

I don't see at all tbh, was just musing out loud. 'Bittersweet' would be them ruling but hating it. I'm of the opinion that they'll both die or both rule from what they set up in S7. One living while the other dies would just be too tragic, and I'm not even a huge fan of the pairing on screen. 

I'm increasingly in agreement with those who think Jon and Dany's fates will be a package deal: either they both die, or they both live.

[ShellsandCheese]

4 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I'm increasingly in agreement with those who think Jon and Dany's fates will be a package deal: either they both die, or they both live.

Well Jon has technically already died. There's bittersweet and then there's a giant f you to the audience. After all that Dany and Jon have been through, I think the cop out would be to have them both die. That is the easy story! I think the harder story to tell is them surviving and what that looks like. I hope they both survive. And I hope the last two dragons survive was well. Maybe they go back to Dragonstone or some other far off place.........maybe the show ends with them flying off to see what's West of Westeros :) 

I've thought about it so much, and I've decided that this is who I want to survive:

Main - Jon, Dany, Arya, Sansa, 

Secondary - Tormund, Brienne, Davos, Messendei, Podrick :) 

Ghost and the remaining Dragons :) 

I also think Bronn will find a way to survive. But not The Hound, his fate is tied to that of his Brother and I think The Mountain is doomed. I can see a reverse Oberyn situation here where The Hound manages to cut down The Mountain with his dying breath. 

I know a lot of people believe that Dany and Jon's fates are tied together, and I believe that too but I think they'll live. I also think that Jaime and Cersei's fates are tied together and I think they'll both die. It's partially for this reason that I think Tyrion is doomed. I think this show will end with the final destruction of House Lannister; I also think Gentry will die thus officially ending House Baratheon. The Greyjoy's are likely doomed because I don't see Yara surviving and Theon is a eunich now. In the end the Stark/Targaryean line will survive because Jon and Dany were the only ones who were capable of putting differences aside to really work together, and the victory against The Night King (assuming the living win) will be theirs no doubt. This show will end with only two great houses remaining: Stark and Targaryean. (I'm not counting Arryn / Frey as great houses anymore cause you know). 

Edited September 27, 2017 by ShellsandCheese

[BlackberryJam]

I'm wondering if the Hound becomes the new Thoros. He's already seeing visions in the fire.

Also, Jon is a walking dead guy. I cannot see this show ending with a walking dead guy as the leader of the realm.

[MadMouse]

If Jon or Dany dies the other will too, there's nothing sweet about one of them living while the other dies, its depressing and tragic. Can you imagine how horrible it would be for her to be stuck with Ser Friendzone or Aejon with Sansa. I would laugh though if the last holy shit moment reveals Dany was resurrected in the funereal pyre.

Sansa and Sam are the only characters I would almost guarantee survive.

Gendry will probably live since, like Edric Storm.

Jaime and Cersei will die together.

Arya and Tyrion death's are the ones that will shock people.

Ghost is a goner, he's going to die protecting his pack. Pregnant Dany.

Drogon and Rhaegal will die too. There death's might save either Jon or Dany. But they'll leave a clutch of Dragon eggs behind.

Edited September 27, 2017 by MadMouse

[Eyes High]

8 hours ago, ShellsandCheese said:

I also think Bronn will find a way to survive. But not The Hound, his fate is tied to that of his Brother and I think The Mountain is doomed. I can see a reverse Oberyn situation here where The Hound manages to cut down The Mountain with his dying breath. 

Possibly, but not necessarily. The Mountain is doomed because the Hound is going to kill him, as 7x07 clearly telegraphed. The Hound may survive it, he may not, but I don't think we can conclude either at this point based on the fact that Cleganebowl is apparently happening in Season 8.

 

Quote

It's partially for this reason that I think Tyrion is doomed. I think this show will end with the final destruction of House Lannister

I think that's a misperception. Tyrion doesn't need to die prematurely to end House Lannister. He just needs to die without legitimate issue. If Tyrion ends up living to a ripe old age as Hand or in his vineyard or whatever, the end result will still be the same. Tyrion may even take some savage satisfaction in ruining Tywin's dreams of a Lannister legacy by refusing to marry and continue the Lannister line.

 

7 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

Also, Jon is a walking dead guy. I cannot see this show ending with a walking dead guy as the leader of the realm.

That's my biggest problem with Jon as the endgame king. Well, that, and GRRM always banging on about how his resurrected characters are shells of their former selves and never the same.

Edited September 27, 2017 by Eyes High

[GrailKing]

Not my idea, but someone on Freefolk proposed Jon would have to choose between saving Danny and Drogon, or Sansa and Winterfell.

 If he chooses Danny and Drogon ( they be needed to fight NK ) then Sansa is sacrificed by her family, just like Lady was, by Ned.

:(

[MarySNJ]

10 hours ago, ShellsandCheese said:

Well Jon has technically already died. There's bittersweet and then there's a giant f you to the audience. After all that Dany and Jon have been through, I think the cop out would be to have them both die. That is the easy story! I think the harder story to tell is them surviving and what that looks like. I hope they both survive.  

And I hope the last two dragons survive was well. Maybe they go back to Dragonstone or some other far off place.........maybe the show ends with them flying off to see what's West of Westeros :) 

I've thought about it so much, and I've decided that this is who I want to survive:

Main - Jon, Dany, Arya, Sansa, 

Secondary - Tormund, Brienne, Davos, Messendei, Podrick :) 

Ghost and the remaining Dragons :) 

I also think Bronn will find a way to survive. But not The Hound, his fate is tied to that of his Brother and I think The Mountain is doomed. I can see a reverse Oberyn situation here where The Hound manages to cut down The Mountain with his dying breath. 

I know a lot of people believe that Dany and Jon's fates are tied together, and I believe that too but I think they'll live. I also think that Jaime and Cersei's fates are tied together and I think they'll both die. It's partially for this reason that I think Tyrion is doomed. I think this show will end with the final destruction of House Lannister; I also think Gentry will die thus officially ending House Baratheon. The Greyjoy's are likely doomed because I don't see Yara surviving and Theon is a eunich now. In the end the Stark/Targaryean line will survive because Jon and Dany were the only ones who were capable of putting differences aside to really work together, and the victory against The Night King (assuming the living win) will be theirs no doubt. This show will end with only two great houses remaining: Stark and Targaryean. (I'm not counting Arryn / Frey as great houses anymore cause you know). 

I completely agree with your first paragraph. Personally I think enough named characters have already died, sufffered, been displaced and lost loved ones. That's bitter, bitter and more bitter. There's a war coming and Winter is here. People are going to be killed and/or die as victims of the army of the dead, or the Lannister mercenaries, or just caught in the crossfire between warring factions, or more likely they'll die of cold and starvation. People's homes and castles will be destroyed and they will lose loved ones. Westeros will likely be a war-ravaged ruin when this story ends. That's just more bitterness. But, if the characters that we care about survive to rebuild and see the Spring, that will at least give some hope for the future. Hopefully, that will be the sweet in the bittersweet ending. I just feel that if Jon and Dany, and the Stark kids and other main protagonists die, it won't be bittersweet, just more bitterness. 

If I recall correctly, GRRM's big complaint about Tolkien's Return of the King is not that Aragon and Arwen survive the war to rule, but that there was insufficient focus on the aftermath of the wars and the nitty gritty of ruling (tax policy, LOL). Hopefully, D&D will have the same atittude about the ending of the TV series.

Edited September 27, 2017 by MarySNJ
HTML problems

[MarySNJ]

8 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

I completely agree with your first paragraph. Personally I think enough named characters have already died, sufffered, been displaced and lost loved ones. That's bitter, bitter and more bitter. There's a war coming and Winter is here. People are going to be killed and/or die as victims of the army of the dead, or the Lannister mercenaries, or just caught in the crossfire between warring factions, or more likely they'll die of cold and starvation. People's homes and castles will be destroyed and they will lose loved ones. Westeros will likely be a war-ravaged ruin when this story ends. That's just more bitterness. But, if the characters that we care about survive to rebuild and see the Spring, that will at least give some hope for the future. Hopefully, that will be the sweet in the bittersweet ending. I just feel that if Jon and Dany, and the Stark kids and other main protagonists die, it won't be bittersweet, just more bitterness. 

If I recall correctly, GRRM's big complaint about Tolkien's conclusions is not that Aragon and Arwen survive the war to rule, but that there was insufficient focus on the aftermath of the wars and the nitty gritty of ruling (tax policy, LOL). Hopefully, D&D will have the same atittude about the ending of the TV series.

[Eyes High]

48 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Not my idea, but someone on Freefolk proposed Jon would have to choose between saving Danny and Drogon, or Sansa and Winterfell.

 If he chooses Danny and Drogon ( they be needed to fight NK ) then Sansa is sacrificed by her family, just like Lady was, by Ned.

:(

I disagree. For the parallel to hold, Sansa would have to be sacrificed so that Arya could live, much like Lady died in Nymeria's place. Of course, if Jon had to choose between saving Arya and Sansa, it's a no-brainer that he would pick Arya. That's not even a question, really.

 

20 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

If I recall correctly, GRRM's big complaint about Tolkien's Return of the King is not that Aragon and Arwen survive the war to rule, but that there was insufficient focus on the aftermath of the wars and the nitty gritty of ruling (tax policy, LOL). Hopefully, D&D will have the same atittude about the ending of the TV series.

I suspect that GRRM's answer to what he saw as Tolkien's failure to focus on the actual mechanics of what goes into a "wise and just" rule may have been Jon and Dany struggling with politics in ADWD.

[screamin]

I do think there will be a point where the undead will swarm around Winterfell, its gates closed in siege and half the population of the North crowded within its walls. It will make a great visual. Whether it will lead to the Lady of Winterfell dying in the siege she's prepared for is another question...after all, if Arya's there there will still be ONE Stark at Winterfell, though I think Arya would be likelier to go with Jon if there's fighting to be had at his side. Of course, Bran could also be the last Stark at WF, but then he's already presided over one fall of WF on his watch.

So I guess the question is, will Winterfell fall? (sorry I can't put that less clunkily).

Edited September 27, 2017 by screamin

[GrailKing]

4 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I disagree. For the parallel to hold, Sansa would have to be sacrificed so that Arya could live, much like Lady died in Nymeria's place. Of course, if Jon had to choose between saving Arya and Sansa, it's a no-brainer that he would pick Arya. That's not even a question, really.

I don't think it has to be exact,  Sansa would be sacrificed, and a Stark did it.

In retrospect, Arya should be sacrificed  because Lady was innocent.

[MarySNJ]

4 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I suspect that GRRM's answer to what he saw as Tolkien's failure to focus on the actual mechanics of what goes into a "wise and just" rule may have been Jon and Dany struggling with politics in ADWD.

I suspect you're right. Most of the book series is about the game of thrones and the magical stuff becomes a larger component only as mundane political things progress in the story. True for the TV series as well. 

3 hours ago, screamin said:

I do think there will be a point where the undead will swarm around Winterfell, its gates closed in siege and half the population of the North crowded within its walls. It will make a great visual. Whether it will lead to the Lady of Winterfell dying in the siege she's prepared for is another question...after all, if Arya's there there will still be ONE Stark at Winterfell, though I think Arya would be likelier to go with Jon if there's fighting to be had at his side. Of course, Bran could also be the last Stark at WF, but then he's already presided over one fall of WF on his watch.

So I guess the question is, will Winterfell fall? (sorry I can't put that less clunkily).

I agree the swarm will close in on Winterfell. Assuming Bran makes it back to Winterfell in the book series as he did in the show and he does go on to become the "Three Eyed Crow", I think that will make him a main target of the White Walkers. I think Winterfell could be the last stand but I'm not convinced it will be destroyed by the hoard. I think a lot depends on whether the people can figure out what animates the White Walkers and destroy it. Maybe Winterfell is where Winter will fall. 

[GraceK]

3 hours ago, GrailKing said:

I don't think it has to be exact,  Sansa would be sacrificed, and a Stark did it.

In retrospect, Arya should be sacrificed  because Lady was innocent.

Lady was innocent, but Sansa wasn't. She knew perfectly well what happened and took Joffreys side.  She helped sign Lady's death warrant. Even when Cersei said to have Lady killed, Sansa STILL didn't change her story and tell the truth. Just because Arya was smart enough to save her wolf when all Sansa did was defend Joffrey doesn't mean  Arya should be sacrificed. 

Edited September 27, 2017 by GraceK

[MadMouse]

Is that even a real choice? Choosing between your sister and the mother of your child, it would be horrible but come on Sansa or Arya would be dead. The only Sophie's Choice for Jon would be between saving Dany or their child and even that isn't one.

[GrailKing]

49 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Lady was innocent, but Sansa wasn't. She knew perfectly well what happened and took Joffreys side.  She helped sign Lady's death warrant. Even when Cersei said to have Lady killed, Sansa STILL didn't change her story and tell the truth. Just because Arya was smart enough to save her wolf when all Sansa did was defend Joffrey doesn't mean  Arya should be sacrificed. 

She didn't take Joffery's side.

 Arya and Joffery put her in a bad position, she took no side in the presence of the King, but she backed up her sister to her father.

Lady was killed by a spiteful bitch, and she also had Mycah killed and who was dead well before Sansa was even called.

Sansa did no worse then 90% + kids do at that age ( even today ) plead ignorance.

I'm not hating or holding that situation on her, I'm holding it on the Adults.

[GraceK]

33 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

She didn't take Joffery's side.

 Arya and Joffery put her in a bad position, she took no side in the presence of the King, but she backed up her sister to her father.

Lady was killed by a spiteful bitch, and she also had Mycah killed and who was dead well before Sansa was even called.

Sansa did no worse then 90% + kids do at that age ( even today ) plead ignorance.

I'm not hating or holding that situation on her, I'm holding it on the Adults.

I'm not hating her for it . I don't hate her at all actually. And god knows Sansa has suffered for any bad decision she ever made, poor thing. But season 1 Sansa definitely took Joffreys side IMO. Joffrey was an absolute beast to micha and was going to attack Arya when Nymeria defended her. Then, when Arya defends herself, Sansa is COMPLETELY on Joffrey side. She has no concern for the butchers boy or her own sister. Then she's mad at  NED for Ladys death instead of holding her fiancé and future mother in law accountable. That wasn't enough to show her how horrible this family was? It takes her father being beheaded before she turned against him. And in the book she's partly responsible for Ned's death.  She was asked point blank what happened  and refused to side with her family. Her wolf paying the price was instant karma.

i just feel that due to how much Sansa has suffered, people forget what a horrible little hosebeast she used to be.

thats it really. This is off topic so I apologize. :)

Edited September 27, 2017 by GraceK

[GrailKing]

15 minutes ago, GraceK said:

I'm not hating her for it . I don't hate her at all actually. And god knows Sansa has suffered for any bad decision she ever made, poor thing. But season 1 Sansa definitely took Joffreys side IMO. Joffrey was an absolute beast to micha and was going to attack Arya when Nymeria defended her. Then, when Arya defends herself, Sansa is COMPLETELY on Joffrey side. She has no concern for the butchers boy or her own sister. Then she blames NED for Ladys death instead of holding her fiancé and future mother in law accountable. That wasn't enough to show her what a horrible beast this family was? She was asked point blank what happened  and refused to side with her family. Her wolf paying the price was instant karma.

i just feel that due to how much Sansa has suffered, people forget what a horrible little hosebeast she used to be.

thats it really. This is off topic so I apologize. :)

A horrible hose beast was Cersei Lannister at the age that Sansa was in the beginning.

And mine is she didn't, she played the middle and got burned, between book and show, if Joff took Sansa's advice, the incident may not have happened, if Arya had also listen Sansa, could have had the chance to defuse the situation, but Arya hit the prince and Mycah and Lady died.

GRRM said all the Starks had a hand in their misery this includes Arya, to me Mycah's death is on Cersei, Joffery, the Hound and Arya.

Lady's death is on Cersei, she knew the wolf was innocent and ordered her killed anyways.

[GraceK]

11 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

A horrible hose beast was Cersei Lannister at the age that Sansa was in the beginning.

And mine is she didn't, she played the middle and got burned, between book and show, if Joff took Sansa's advice, the incident may not have happened, if Arya had also listen Sansa, could have had the chance to defuse the situation, but Arya hit the prince and Mycah and Lady died.

GRRM said all the Starks had a hand in their misery this includes Arya, to me Mycah's death is on Cersei, Joffery, the Hound and Arya.

Lady's death is on Cersei, she knew the wolf was innocent and ordered her killed anyways.

Arya feels responsible for Micha. She never stopped feeling remorseful. Sansa never batted an eye and still wanted to marry Joffrey even when her wolf was killed. 

Look, I'm not a Sansa hater. I respect who she is now and I  admire her. Doesn't mean i can't despise things she did. As much as I loved Robb, I think he was a total asshole to behead the Karstark and marry Talisa. Talk about your idiots!!! He's partly  responsible for what happened at the  red wedding. 

And when Arya was offered 3 lives, she should have chosen Joffrey, Tywin and Cersei and ended the war, and prevented mass suffering. In fact, her killing of that guy caused Tywin to think he was the target and costed many, MANY lives in tracking down his assassin. No one on this show has clean hands. But I still love them even though I see their faults.

Edited September 27, 2017 by GraceK