Endgame Discussion and Speculation

[Wouter]

8 hours ago, Eyes High said:

At this point, I think many fans will ultimately be disappointed at how predictable the ending will turn out to be. The NK defeated (somehow), Cersei and Jaime dead (somehow), Jon and/or Dany as king/queen, Tyrion as Hand and/or Lord of Casterly Rock, Sansa at WF assuming she survives, Bran at WF if she doesn't or in the alternative as some kind of mystical 3ER-type sage figure, and Arya traveling on her own. There's not much there that couldn't have been predicted by an attentive book reader after reading AGOT, but then maybe that's the point.

Another way to describe such an ending would be logical, in line with what was established and foreshadowed, to a large degree. I don't know why that would be disappointing, unless one prefers unpredictable (and often non-sensible) twists for the sake of it. 

For example, that the Others will be defeated is something a very large percentage of readers likely are expecting and cheering to happen. I suspect the people that want an avant-garde ending, with the Night King killing everything in Westeros, will be rather in the minority.

Having said that, we should also not assume we know the ending already. We can make educated guesses, but some surprises are always possible.

Edited July 27, 2017 by Wouter

[Edith]

14 minutes ago, Wouter said:

Another way to descrive such an ending would be logical, in line with what was established and foreshadowed, to a large degree. I don't know why that would be disappointing, unless one prefers unpredictable (and often non-sensible) twists for the sake of it. 

For example, that the Others will be defeated is something a very large percentage of readers likely are expecting and cheering to happen. I suspect the people that want an avant-garde ending, with the Night King killing everything in Westeros, will be rather in the minority.

Having said that, we should also not assume we know the ending already. We can make educated guesses, but some surprises are always possible.

Well there's still the third shocking moment that is supposed to happen towards the end of the history according to D&D.

Stannis burning Shireen was one. Hodor the second and while some people did speculate about it, they weren't well known theories.

So who knows? Maybe the shocking could be wight Viserion and Jon/Dany being responsible for the wall falling. 

[Eyes High]

9 minutes ago, Edith said:

Well there's still the third shocking moment that is supposed to happen towards the end of the history according to D&D.

Stannis burning Shireen was one. Hodor the second and while some people did speculate about it, they weren't well known theories.

So who knows? Maybe the shocking could be wight Viserion and Jon/Dany being responsible for the wall falling. 

I believe D&D said that the third shocking twist happens at the very end. I think we're still too far off from the ending for Wight Viserion to count as the third shocking twist.

[SeanC]

14 hours ago, anamika said:

It's a disappointing ending with regard to the Stark kids. Arya spends four books traveling and trying to get home to her brother and her ending is to go off again.

Would that really be a disappointing ending?  If it's a "Arya is melancholy and can't fit in at home" ending, sure, but it seems more likely to the case where Arya reconnects with her siblings (we know she'll do that with Sansa, and one assumes the same with Jon in Season 8), sees Westeros through the crisis, and then decides to do some of the adventuring she always wanted to do on her own terms.  That sounds like a pretty decent deal for her, if it happens.

[TarotQueen]

Havent read all pages in this topic yet but I think the marks on Bran's arm may be significant. 

The Night King is angling for Jon as the biggest prize of all imo, cause Jon is the general and if you beat him, you are that much more likely to win the war.  Also because Stark blood and mystical ties between Starks and/or NWLCs to WW.

But ... if Jon survives and the NK is defeated, I think it might trip a curse of some kind on Bran that he has to go north again and hibernate to end up becoming the new Night King.

Basically the NK gets a Stark/Stark bloodline one way or another.

Edited July 28, 2017 by TarotQueen
Just added the last line to tie it all together.

[Francie]

On 7/27/2017 at 0:54 AM, Oscirus said:

Problem is this was all in the book, I don't believe any of that was said on the show. Euron uses a tongue knife on his hostages, Tyrion wouldn't be his hostage, Tyrion would be Cersei's

I formed the idea from reading the books. It's one of many "I think this'll happen"* moments.  Many of those (like that Joanna Lannister is alive) I don't think will be revealed in the show.  There's too much and stuff has to get cut (no pun intended, given the topic here). 

 

I've gone back and forth on whether D&D would not take the Tyrion losing his tongue moment.  Here's the guy who gives all the big speeches in the show.  Here's your one actor that has won an emmy for his performances. Seriously, how could they possibly handicap this guy?  But 2 things make me come out the other way -- first, I think it'll play in to his ultimate fate (accepting who he is, etc.).  I think D&D will delay it as long as narratively possible, but I think that, should it be a plot development in the book, they'll have to eventually incorporate it.  Second, they are introducing Euron and his tongue knife.  They aren't just revealing that he's cut off a bunch of tongues (I'm presuming that they'll show the Silence).  They showed the knife. That's what finally made me pull the trigger on that one.  

 

*That's not to say all of the seeds planted are foreshadowing moments. Some I would simply call plot crumbs or clues. 

[TarotQueen]

I can see that too doran. The NK def has a hard on for Jon that he is not letting go of ... I'm just trying to undo my attachment to the character (Jon!) at this point.   

Edited July 29, 2017 by TarotQueen
clarity

[Francie]

On 7/27/2017 at 2:21 PM, Eyes High said:

I believe D&D said that the third shocking twist happens at the very end. I think we're still too far off from the ending for Wight Viserion to count as the third shocking twist.

Yes. They said it was a final episode moment. 

[GrailKing]

On 7/27/2017 at 2:32 AM, Oscirus said:

Finally, I tend to think her experiences with Littlefinger and her views on ruling are indicative of someone who's out grown the North and is ready to enter the big game. A few other minor things, but those are the big points

I seem to see a parallel between Jon in season 2 , he's picked as LC Mormonts steward, as Sam said he's being groomed, we get at Craster's Keep: "You're to lead one day ; learn to follow".

&-2 After Sansa recovers from her fear and shock, if people look two people are happy, 1 with a OH Yeah smirk, and a blonde lady with a smile ( Brieene ), she understood what Jon did or is doing and it's in a so subtle manner: He acknowledged his sister with respect, and trust, he's instilling confidence and he is grooming her to Lead and possibly rule in the future. 

 

LF is soooo dead.

[anamika]

On 7/28/2017 at 1:53 AM, SeanC said:

Would that really be a disappointing ending?  If it's a "Arya is melancholy and can't fit in at home" ending, sure, but it seems more likely to the case where Arya reconnects with her siblings (we know she'll do that with Sansa, and one assumes the same with Jon in Season 8), sees Westeros through the crisis, and then decides to do some of the adventuring she always wanted to do on her own terms.  That sounds like a pretty decent deal for her, if it happens.

Again, is that the ending that GRRM was really heading towards for her? Has Arya ever expressed an interest in going on adventures in the books? She wanted to fight, be a king's councilor, be a high Septon - in effect she wanted to not be restricted by her gender in wanting to do things. But the one constant thing in her narrative is her love for Winterfell, it's people, her brother and her bond with Nymeria. Her 'adventures' that she's been forced to go on for four books has been harrowing and has turned her into a traumatized  child.  Ned warns Arya that she is a wild child in book one and the idea that Arya's character development after 7 books and 8 seasons is that she is a wild child and will just go on adventures would be a disappointing ending for me.

In the books, Arya's skill set is not limited to killing people. In the books, the FM teach her languages, how to control her emotions and detect lies. She has an understanding of how the North works. On the show, Jon and Arya have no relationship, Needle is about revenge and Nymeria is apparently too wild, just like her. They have already co-opted her narratives into Sansa's character ( Fake Arya, killing people for revenge, Lone wolf dies pack survives, relationship with Jon, knowing Northern politics etc.) leaving not much left for the character to do other than being a magical assassin. Show Arya has never indicated a desire for traveling either, but I can see the show sending her off on adventures and try to make it into a happy ending for her. But I don't think that's what book Arya would have wanted and I doubt that's where GRRM was headed for with her.

Though I would much prefer Arya going off to either her or Dany being used as Nissa-Nissa for Jon. The way David and Dan write, we may get Jon suddenly remembering how much he is supposed to love Arya 5 minutes before he shoves Longclaw into her as a sacrifice of the person he loves the most.

Edited July 29, 2017 by anamika

[OhOkayWhat]

45 minutes ago, anamika said:

Again, is that the ending that GRRM was really heading towards for her?

Maybe she (and other characters) have "open" endings in the books. And that opens lots of possibilities for the showrunners.

 

51 minutes ago, anamika said:

In the books, Arya's skill set is not limited to killing people

Neither in the show.

 

52 minutes ago, anamika said:

They have already co-opted her narratives into Sansa's character

Those narratives belong to another character: Book!Arya. Show!Arya lives in a different Planetos and she has her own narrative.

 

1 hour ago, anamika said:

Show Arya has never indicated a desire for traveling either

She did. Episode 6x08.

[anamika]

13 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

Maybe she (and other characters) have "open" endings in the books. And that opens lots of possibilities for the showrunners.

Agree. GRRM has always maintained that he knew what her ending was way back in 1996 and that it has not changed. I don't think that's true anymore.

13 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

She did. Episode 6x08.

What, that one line she said when she had no idea that her family was alive and well in Winterfell?

Edited July 29, 2017 by anamika

[OhOkayWhat]

18 minutes ago, anamika said:

What, that one line she said when she had no idea that her family was alive and well in Winterfell?

I think one thing doesn't exclude the other (in her narrative).

Edited July 29, 2017 by OhOkayWhat

[Eyes High]

3 hours ago, anamika said:

Again, is that the ending that GRRM was really heading towards for her? Has Arya ever expressed an interest in going on adventures in the books?

At least twice:

Quote

Might be it's from Robb, come to say it wasn't true about Bran and Rickon. She chewed on her lip, hoping. If I had wings I could fly back to Winterfell and see for myself. And if it was true, I'd just fly away, fly up past the moon and the shining stars, and see all the things in Old Nan's stories, dragons and sea monsters and the Titan of Braavos, and maybe I wouldn't ever fly back unless I wanted to.

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Besides, Arya wasn't even sure she could find Acorn Hall again. Sometimes she thought she might go back to Sharna's inn, if the floods hadn't washed it away. She could stay with Hot Pie, or maybe Lord Beric would find her there. Anguy would teach her to use a bow, and she could ride with Gendry and be an outlaw, like Wenda the White Fawn in the songs.

So Arya has definitely toyed with the idea of taking off on her own and having adventures before.

 

Quote

Ned warns Arya that she is a wild child in book one and the idea that Arya's character development after 7 books and 8 seasons is that she is a wild child and will just go on adventures would be a disappointing ending for me.

GRRM has referred to Arya as a wild child as well. D&D seem to be suggesting with 7x02 that Arya can no more grow out of her wildness than Nymeria did.

I don't doubt that Arya loves and values her family, but it would be out of character for her to hang around Winterfell once Bran/Sansa assumes the role of lord/lady of Winterfell (I assume) and once Jon leaves to be king or the NK or whatever (I assume). She would get tired of that very quickly and get restless once she knew her surviving family members were safe and settled.

We also know that GRRM once allegedly planned for an adult Arya to have a role in a post-ASOIAF murder mystery series set in Braavos, which seems to suggest that she'll have the sort of life where she's able to travel to Braavos. If she's living any kind of settled life at court, at Winterfell, or even at Storms End as some have posited, that seems unlikely.

 

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In the books, Arya's skill set is not limited to killing people. In the books, the FM teach her languages, how to control her emotions and detect lies.

She has been taught how to detect lies in the show as well.

 

Quote

Show Arya has never indicated a desire for traveling either, but I can see the show sending her off on adventures and try to make it into a happy ending for her. But I don't think that's what book Arya would have wanted and I doubt that's where GRRM was headed for with her.

Arya seemed very interested in what was west of Westeros, and Arya has always been clear that being cooped up in a castle forced into pretending to be a lady is her idea of hell. Her undeniable love for her family doesn't negate that. Even Ned who adored Arya expected her to settle down eventually into a traditional lady's role, but as Arya has said, that's not her.

Nymeria being an itinerant sort roaming the Riverlands (or wherever it was that Arya ran across her) seemed to suggest a similar fate for Arya, and Bryan Cogman said as much. The writers described Nymeria as a "lone wolf," even though she had a pack with her, which suggests that while Arya might collect her own pack, she will never be bound to one place and she cannot be tamed or domesticated. 

Edited July 29, 2017 by Eyes High

[anamika]

38 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

At least twice:

So Arya has definitely toyed with the idea of taking off on her own and having adventures before

Yes, but both those instances were when she thinks that she does not have a home or a family to go to anymore.  The first one specifically mentions that she would go away if Bran and Rickon were truly dead. We can catch a glimpse of her innocence, wanting to go see the creatures in Old Nan's stories. It's understandable that she wants to get away from Westeros or spend time with her new pack (Hot Pie, Gendry), when her old pack is dead and she has no home.

As for the show, I can see that line from her about 'West of Westeros' be a hint of her future. I can see the show sending her off on adventures and all that. I just think that's a disappointing ending to her arc on the show. This means that all she ends up doing is killing off the Freys and a few WW with her Valyrian dagger. I mean Bran is 3ER, Jon/Dany are dragons and promised prince on Iron Throne whatever, Tyrion advisor/councilor, Sansa in charge of Winterfell and Arya?

As an Arya fan I am not satisfied with that. I am hoping that there's more to it than that. But I am preparing myself to be disappointed. The showrunners have never understood much about Arya's book narrative, so I think I will have to settle for their version.

Edited July 29, 2017 by anamika

[Eyes High]

23 minutes ago, anamika said:

As an Arya fan I am not satisfied with that. I am hoping that there's more to it than that. But I am preparing myself to be disappointed. The showrunners have never understood much about Arya's book narrative, so I think I will have to settle for their version.

The showrunners know the ending of Arya's book narrative, so that much they "understand." I expect that that understanding is informing how they're writing her now. 

I think the best thing for Arya is that she gets to have the life she wants, which never included a traditional life. If she winds up with an itinerant lifestyle, it will be because it's what she wants, not because it was forced on her as it was before, and if Arya gets what she wants, I think that counts as a happy ending, or as happy as GOT is likely to get.

Edited July 29, 2017 by Eyes High

[anamika]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

I think the best thing for Arya is that she gets to have the life she wants, which never included a traditional life. If she winds up with an itinerant lifestyle, it will be because it's what she wants, not because it was forced on her as it was before, and if Arya gets what she wants, I think that counts as a happy ending, or as happy as GOT is likely to get.

The best thing for every character is to get what they want. I just don't think that both the show and the books has indicated yet that Arya will be happy to leave behind her family and home (after two years away) and go away adventuring. Sure the show can add a line at the end of it all about how she just loves to go on adventures and we can have a repeat of her season 4 ending shot with her on a boat again. That's fine, if it makes the character happy. But for me, personally, that's a disappointing end for a character who has been trying to get home from book one.

What I am saying is that, reading the books, I never got the feeling that after trying to reach home for 4 books, being brutalized and turning into a traumatized killer, what would make her happy is to go off as an adventurous explorer.  As for GRRM wanting to write about Arya's adventures in Braavos:

Quote

He said that LOVES to write about Arya’s adventures in Braavos. He said he could write whole novels about. That received a huge applause until he joked that maybe he could put off Winds to do so.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/73644-arya-in-braavos-so-spake-martin/

This is about expanding on the time Arya is already spending in Braavos in the series. I don't remember him saying anything about adult Arya in Braavos - that would be giving away what happens to the character of Arya and he has not done that. I doubt Arya is going back to Braavos again. Been there, done that.

Edited July 29, 2017 by anamika

[Eyes High]

19 minutes ago, anamika said:

I am still puzzled by how they have completely erased Arya from Jon's narrative. Jon talks with everyone he meets about Sansa but the one character he meets that has a connection to Arya and nothing.  The Hound and Brienne discuss Arya, but not Jon. At least Arya still shows a connection to Jon in her plot this season.  I guess Arya does not matter to Jon's narrative at all.

They have a connection, but Arya has her own life, and Jon, assuming he survives, will have his, independent of Winterfell. The writers say of Arya/Nymeria that they can't go back to the way things were. As much as she may wax nostalgic about her pack, Arya can't go back to the days of running around Winterfell with Jon and her family. Jon will have other responsibilities that will take him away from Winterfell, so the sort of cozy scenario of all the now-adult Starks hanging around indefinitely at Winterfell is unlikely to materialize in any event. 

 

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I just don't think that both the show and the books has indicated yet that Arya will be happy to leave behind her family and home (after two years away) and go away adventuring.

Why not? Jon, the one she loves most of her surviving family members, is not going to stick around Winterfell in the long run. Why would she? Assuming Sansa winds up running things, I think she and Arya would get on each other's nerves before very long, too, and Arya would feel stifled.

 

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What I am saying is that, reading the books, I never got the feeling that after trying to reach home for 4 books, being brutalized and turning into a traumatized killer, her ending is to go off as an adventurous explorer.

Arya's very resilient and self-sufficient; she's been on her own for so long that it comes as second nature to her. She has been traumatized, but she's hardly Theon; she's not going to spend the rest of her life huddled in a corner paralyzed by her past. Once she's satisfied that her family members are safe and settled, bumming around a Jonless Winterfell or even tagging along with Jon as he rules in whatever the capital is going to be is unlikely to appeal to her.

 

Quote

This is about expanding on the time Arya is already spending in Braavos exploring the place in the series. I don't remember him saying anything about adult Arya in Braavos - that would be giving away what happens to the character of Arya and he has not done that. I doubt Arya is going back to Braavos again. Been there, done that.

This is what I was referencing, from user Prince_Cade at /Freefolk:

Quote

I once asked Ran ([Elio] Garcia ) if GRRM ever thought about continuing after ASOIAF and he told me George was once interested in doing a mystery/crime series set in Braavos some years after everything in the 7K settled. A grown Arya was to have a part in it. I doubt he still going to do it but I wonder how would that have been?

Seems strongly supportive of Arya having an adventuring life post-ASOIAF.

Edited July 29, 2017 by Eyes High

[anamika]

13 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

snip

I am not sure if spoiler discussion is allowed here, so I removed that bit about Jon at the beginning. In case anyone gets spoiled by accident...

13 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Why not? Jon, the one she loves most of her surviving family members, is not going to stick around Winterfell in the long run. Why would she? Assuming Sansa winds up running things, I think she and Arya would get on each other's nerves before very long, too, and Arya would feel stifled.

Why would she not want to stay with Jon? In KL, helping him run things if he survives. Or stay in Winterfell with Sansa? They are supposed to apparently make up and get over their issues.

13 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Arya's very resilient and self-sufficient; she's been on her own for so long that it comes as second nature to her. She has been traumatized, but she's hardly Theon; she's not going to spend the rest of her life huddled in a corner paralyzed by her past. Once she's satisfied that her family members are safe and settled, bumming around a Jonless Winterfell or even tagging along with Jon as he rules in whatever the capital is going to be is unlikely to appeal to her.

No, she's not Theon. But the one constant in her story is her wanting to go home. Not her wanting to go on adventures. Reuniting with her brother and being home could make her happy again. Arya wanted to run things - be an advisor. She wanted to be Nymeria. She gets along with everyone. She knows the place. She can train little girls to fight. There's any number of things she can do.

13 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

This is what I was referencing, from user Prince_Cade at /Freefolk:

Seems strongly supportive of Arya having an adventuring life post-ASOIAF.

 

I think that's someone's wrong interpretation of what GRRM said about writing Arya in Braavos. I doubt that GRRM would give away the ending of one of his main characters and I doubt that Elio would openly tell that to everyone. I took a look in the SSMs and I don't see any discussion of this big spoiler - Arya survives and is solving mysteries in Braavos!! I doubt it's true.

Edited July 29, 2017 by anamika

[Eyes High]

23 minutes ago, anamika said:

I am not sure if spoiler discussion is allowed here, so I removed that bit about Jon at the beginning. In case anyone gets spoiled by accident...

Why would she not want to stay with Jon? In KL, helping him run things if he survives. Or stay in Winterfell with Sansa? They are supposed to apparently make up and get over their issues.

This thread is leak-unsafe. As I say in the OP, all things spoilery, including TWOW and Season 7 leaks, are fair game.

But as to your question, because as the writers spelled out, just like Nymeria, she's not a companion and she's not domesticated. She can't go back to tagging along with Jon. She needs to do her own thing, and meekly helping Jon or Sansa is not her, no more than meekly helping Arya was Nymeria. The writers described Arya and Nymeria as "lone wolves." Arya's not cut out to serve her siblings for any length of time, no matter how much she loves them. Nymeria is no one's servant, and neither is Arya.

Arya named her direwolf, who in the books is rumoured to kill any wolf that tries to mount her, after a queen. That doesn't mean that she'll be a queen, but from what we know of Nymeria's namesake, she was a fierce leader and trailblazer. Whatever Arya's destiny, it won't be to be a humble helper to Sansa, Bran or Jon.

 

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But the one constant in her story is her wanting to go home.

Sure, but once she's home and realizes that the surviving Starks are okay, are grown, and have their own lives, what then?

 

Quote

I think that's someone's wrong interpretation of what GRRM said about writing Arya in Braavos.

You can think that if you wish, but there's no reason to do so.

Edited July 29, 2017 by Eyes High

[OhOkayWhat]

4 hours ago, anamika said:

The showrunners have never understood much about Arya's book narrative, so I think I will have to settle for their version.

I think they do, it's simply they like more their own version.

I think she'll go back with her family eventually, and she'll tell them that too. But her last scene in the show will be similar to the last scene of season 4.

[Eyes High]

7 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

I think they do, it's simply they like more their own version.

I think she'll go back with her family eventually, and she'll tell them that too. But her last scene in the show will be similar to the last scene of season 4.

That's where my thinking is at, too: Arya sails off into parts unknown, looking for adventure. I can't find the exact quote, but I could have sworn one of the GOT writers said that Season 4 contains a lot of foreshadowing for the end of the show. Arya's last scene in 4x10 could be one such example.

On that note, I'm wondering whether or not the finale will end in the "present," or if there will be any kind of flashforward to 20 years or whatever down the line, whether it's via a Bran vision or through some other means. The Return of the King jumped forward in time before the actual ending, if I recall.

Going back to Arya, there are a number of female characters in ASOIAF and related Westeros works whose personalities are described in terms similar to Arya's (wild, fierce, stubborn, clever, willful, etc. etc.): Maege Mormont, Ygritte, Lyanna Stark, Nettles, Elaena Targaryen, Daena Targaryen, and Nymeria. They all led very unusual or unconventional lives, with multiple marriages (Elaena and Nymeria), love affairs (many scandalous) outside of marriage (Ygritte, Asha, Nettles, Daena, Elaena), or no marriages at all (Ygritte, Maege, Nettles, Daena, etc.). Many of them had bastards (Maege, Daena, Elaena, etc.). They all bucked convention one way or another--Maege with her fatherless children, Asha with her attempt to seek leadership of the Ironborn, Lyanna with her affair with Rhaegar, Nettles with taming a dragon and taking the queen's consort as her lover, Elaena with her multiple marriages and acting as de facto Master of Coin, etc.--but they did not lead settled or domestic lives, and they answered to no one. I'm guessing that a future Arya, assuming we do see her future beyond heading out to parts unknown, will have a similar life as those other women, full of upheaval, adventure, trailblazing, and drama. A number of these women came to a bad end, so hopefully things will work out better for Arya in the long run.

Edited July 30, 2017 by Eyes High

[Raachel2008]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

7 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

I think they do, it's simply they like more their own version.

I think she'll go back with her family eventually, and she'll tell them that too. But her last scene in the show will be similar to the last scene of season 4.

That's where my thinking is at, too: Arya sails off into parts unknown, looking for adventure. I can't find the exact quote, but I could have sworn one of the GOT writers said that Season 4 contains a lot of foreshadowing for the end of the show. Arya's last scene in 4x10 could be one such example.

Agreed, Arya is a free sprit, the 'wild child'. It doesn't mean she doesn't love her family or won't be part of their lives. I envision Arya sort of like that uncle that travels the world and comes back every two years and then leaves again. 

 

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

On that note, I'm wondering whether or not the finale will end in the "present," or if there will be any kind of flashforward to 20 years or whatever down the line, whether it's via a Bran vision or through some other means. The Return of the King jumped forward in time before the actual ending, if I recall.

I'm one of those who beleives GoT is a story being told by someone, most likely Sam.

The third shock, IMO, is something none of us we'll see coming, which crosses off the list  Jon or Dany dying, Jon becoming NK, or Dany turning full Aerys. I personally don't think Jon will become NK, or that Dany will become Aerys, but that has been speculated for ages, as well as one fo them dying. Nobody really saw Stannis burning Shireen, specially taking in account book Stannis, who was the best, and if anyone says they predicted the Hodor shock they are lying. 

As far as the endgame goes, I think Arya lives and leaves Westeros.  Jamie kills Cersei and dies fighting the Others or saving Brienne. if Tormund doesn't die saving her. Either way, Tormund dies. Brienne stays with Sansa. Sansa lives and rules whatever is left of the North/Winterfell. Dany dies sacrificing herself for the people of Westeros. Theon kills himself after a short redemption arc. Melisandre, Varys, Jorah,the Hound, the Mountain, Beric, Euron, Qyburn, Melisandre, all dead, as well as most Northern Lords/Houses and SweetRobbin. Lyanna lives, Alys Karstark dies saving Sansa. Tyrion ends miserable and unhappy.  Jon kills the NK. The WWs, wights, all gone. Magic leaves the world, Bran fades away.  I can see Jon ending on the Iron Throne, but that is almost too easy, so no idea. 

ETA: I LOVE Davos and I want him to live, but I cannot believe Tormund, Davos and Tyrion all live.

Edited July 30, 2017 by Raachel2008

[Eyes High]

8 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

Agreed, Arya is a free sprit, the 'wild child'. It doesn't mean she doesn't love her family or won't be part of their lives. I envision Arya sort of like that uncle that travels the world and comes back every two years and then leaves again. 

I like that. 

 

Quote

I'm one of those who beleives GoT is a story being told by someone, most likely Sam.

That would work as well.

 

Quote

The third shock, IMO, is something none of us we'll see coming, which crosses off the list  Jon or Dany dying, Jon becoming NK, or Dany turning full Aerys. I personally don't think Jon will become NK, or that Dany will become Aerys, but that has been speculated for ages, as well as one fo them dying. Nobody really saw Stannis burning Shireen, specially taking in account book Stannis, who was the best, and if anyone says they predicted the Hodor shock they are lying. 

I found a few posts on Westeros.org predicting Stannis would burn Shireen before Season 5 ever aired, but it was by no means a popular theory. 

A very few people on Westeros.org predicted that "Hodor" meant "Hold the door," but I'm pretty sure no one predicted that Bran would warg into Hodor in a vision of the past and scramble his brains.

As @Francie said upthread, D&D said the final twist is from the very last episode, so it might be something from the very end as opposed to the final battle. On the other hand, the last episode could be supersized, so maybe it does relate to the last battle after all. I agree that obvious things like Jon or Dany dying wouldn't qualify as shocking twists.

[Raachel2008]

3 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I found a few posts on Westeros.org predicting Stannis would burn Shireen before Season 5 ever aired, but it was by no means a popular theory. 

A very few people on Westeros.org predicted that "Hodor" meant "Hold the door," but I'm pretty sure no one predicted that Bran would warg into Hodor in a vision of the past and scramble his brains.

 

4 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I found a few posts on Westeros.org predicting Stannis would burn Shireen before Season 5 ever aired, but it was by no means a popular theory. 

Really? I thought he was going to send Shireen to the Red Priestess school or whatever.

5 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

A very few people on Westeros.org predicted that "Hodor" meant "Hold the door," but I'm pretty sure no one predicted that Bran would warg into Hodor in a vision of the past and scramble his brains.

No one could predict what Bran would do or that Hodor was never an impaired person. :(

[Oscirus]

It seems to me that the exact opposite is true of Arya. She's had ample opportunities to drop her identity and go west yet she's yet to do so. She keeps going back to her old personality, her own home of her own accord. 

That being said, there has to be some consequences for her drinking the death water. 

Edited July 30, 2017 by Oscirus

[OhOkayWhat]

5 hours ago, Oscirus said:

It seems to me that the exact opposite is true of Arya. She's had ample opportunities to drop her identity and go west yet she's yet to do so. She keeps going back to her old personality, her own home of her own accord. 

That's the difference between her current narrative and her endgame.

 

5 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

Agreed, Arya is a free sprit, the 'wild child'. It doesn't mean she doesn't love her family or won't be part of their lives. I envision Arya sort of like that uncle that travels the world and comes back every two years and then leaves again. 

Interesting. Also, will she travel alone?

[Raachel2008]

12 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

Interesting. Also, will she travel alone?

Why not? Before and after the Hound she managed to survive pretty well by herself, and she did that with the Lannisters alive and fighting the Starks. I believe that no matter who sits on the Iron Throne the Starks won't be the enemies anymore. If Dany, Jon or even Tyrion ends on the throne, I imagine Arya travelling to the other continents, learning things and coming back once in a while with knowledge  - sort of like Marco Polo without being Kublai's bitch, and she could do it alone or of a small party. That would work even if there is no Iron Throne left, but several kingdons; she would come back to the North. 

[SeanC]

3 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

Why not? Before and after the Hound she managed to survive pretty well by herself, and she did that with the Lannisters alive and fighting the Starks. I believe that no matter who sits on the Iron Throne the Starks won't be the enemies anymore. If Dany, Jon or even Tyrion ends on the throne, I imagine Arya travelling to the other continents, learning things and coming back once in a while with knowledge  - sort of like Marco Polo without being Kublai's bitch, and she could do it alone or of a small party. That would work even if there is no Iron Throne left, but several kingdons; she would come back to the North. 

If she wants to see "what's west of Westeros" she'd pretty much need a ship and a crew.

[Raachel2008]

4 minutes ago, SeanC said:

If she wants to see "what's west of Westeros" she'd pretty much need a ship and a crew.

What I meant by alone is not being tied to a group for her entire journey. A ship and a crew takes her to the next piece of land and from there she goes her way.

[SeanC]

Just now, Raachel2008 said:

What I meant by alone is not being tied to a group for her entire journey. A ship and a crew takes her to the next piece of land and from there she goes her way.

I don't think that would work either, at least for that particular voyage.  West of Westeros is undiscovered country; there aren't any ships normally heading in that direction.  She'd have to form a company of explorers.

[SeanC]

Having seen episode 703, Bran pretty categorically rules himself out of ruling anything.

[Oscirus]

king/ queen of the north is down to 3 people and I really doubt Jon's doing it so really 2 now.

[Francie]

Samwell Tully has now become a carrier of grey stone. He'll pass it on to Little Sam. Little Sam will be returned to the Night King. 

And like Hugh was supposed to do to the Borg in Star Trek: The Next Generation, Little Sam will defeat the WW from within. 

[Francie]

One more:

I think that everyone and anyone who calls him- or herself, or allows others to anoint them a king or queen before the final episode of the final season is going to die before the end. 

[SeanC]

On 2017-07-31 at 1:19 AM, Francie said:

Samwell Tully has now become a carrier of grey stone. He'll pass it on to Little Sam. Little Sam will be returned to the Night King. 

And like Hugh was supposed to do to the Borg in Star Trek: The Next Generation, Little Sam will defeat the WW from within. 

That would be an arbitrary deus ex machine.

And additionally, why wouldn't Sam just treat the baby's greyscale?

[Maximum Taco]

On 2017-07-30 at 7:12 PM, Raachel2008 said:

What I meant by alone is not being tied to a group for her entire journey. A ship and a crew takes her to the next piece of land and from there she goes her way.

She'd still need to find a ship that wants to go to West over the Sunset Sea.

When nobody's ever returned it severely limits the amount of people who would want to go.

[Francie]

It's going to turn out that Bran fucked up Jaime's life more than Jaime ever fucked up Bran's. 

"Burn them all." Bran's fault. 

Being discovered and then defenestrated? Bran's fault. 

The only thing I'm holding back on is whether I can lay Jaime's incest at Bran's feet as well. Probably not. But I can't rule it out. 

8 hours ago, SeanC said:

That would be an arbitrary deus ex machine.

And additionally, why wouldn't Sam just treat the baby's greyscale?

There's a Trojan horse. Whether it's Sam or Jon, we'll see.  I'm going with Li'l Sam because I don't believe the WW are bad. They are a species to be reasoned with. And li'l Sam, as they would know him, is their little brother. 

[amandawoods]

I'm hoping the above is true more than Bran being the Night King.  I'll will seriously kick my tv if that happens.  Please let him be Bran the builder instead. 

[SeanC]

47 minutes ago, Francie said:

I'm going with Li'l Sam because I don't believe the WW are bad. They are a species to be reasoned with. And li'l Sam, as they would know him, is their little brother. 

The producers have rather explicitly ruled that out.  The WW are murder machines who don't have a choice in what they do.

[Francie]

On 8/3/2017 at 8:02 PM, SeanC said:

The producers have rather explicitly ruled that out.  The WW are murder machines who don't have a choice in what they do.

If that's the case, it's very curious, then, that the HBO Essentials include multiple moments where the WW have arranged the bodies into shapes.  And then we have Sansa's somewhat similar necklace. I know the costume designer has explained it away. I know D&D have dismissed the WW as killing machines.  But George has also stated that he doesn't like to write out-and-out villains, and likes shades of grey better.  We also have Jon, who has brought together opposing forces before. And Tyrion, who problem solves by asking, "What do you want?"  Put those two together, and I can see them figuring this out.  

In any event, the out-and-out denials by D&D strike me as a bit too much:

 

We'll see. 

[SeanC]

1 minute ago, Francie said:

In any event, the out-and-out denials by D&D strike me as a bit too much:

We'll see. 

They didn't have to say anything.  The comments in question were:

Quote

DEADLINE: Now that Walder and Ramsey Bolton are out of the way, you have done away with two of your most deliciously evil villains. Your most formidable villain going forward is the Night King, who leads the White Walkers. How much of a challenge has it been, writing a menacing character who doesn’t talk, when your greatest villains established their loathsomeness through dialogue as much as atrocious acts?

WEISS: I don’t think of the Night King as a villain as much as, Death. He is not like Joffrey, or Ramses. He’s not really human anymore. To me, evil comes when you have a choice between that and good, and you choose the wrong way. The Night King doesn’t have a choice; he was created that way, and that’s what he is. In some ways, he’s just death, coming for everyone in the story, coming for all of us. In some ways, it’s appropriate he doesn’t speak. What’s death going to say? Anything would diminish him. He’s just a force of destruction. I don’t think we’ve ever been tempted to write dialogue for the Night King. Anything he said would be anticlimactic.

They volunteered all that in response to question about the Night King not having said anything yet.

Edited August 6, 2017 by SeanC

[Francie]

My working theory is that they are trying to communicate, but they lack the voice to do so.  Endgame will be about figuring out what they want and seeing if they can negotiate and sufficiently accommodate them.  In light of that, I think that D&D can't answer that question any other way, or else they give away the game.  

More specifically, I was referring to a quote I saw where they were dismissive that the shapes meant anything.  I tend to think they do. That's all context I'm getting from the story. I'm much more interested in interpreting and discussing that. 

Moreover, as far as the WW exist today, they are nothing but death and killing machines. That's what would be interesting about the story -- to show that they are something more.  It's not a simple good guys vs. zombies story at that point. If the endgame turns out to be that, I think the show will be anti-climatic for many viewers -- at least the ones here for complex characters and smart drama. 

[SeanC]

2 minutes ago, Francie said:

My working theory is that they are trying to communicate, but they lack the voice to do so.  Endgame will be about figuring out what they want and seeing if they can negotiate and sufficiently accommodate them.  In light of that, I think that D&D can't answer that question any other way, or else they give away the game.  

No, all they had to say was "We don't find it challenging to write a villain with no dialogue."

[SeanC]

Between Varys' death being essentially confirmed by Mel, and his increasing disenchantment with Dany, I'm guessing that when the truth of Jon's parentage comes out Varys tries to kill Dany so that Jon can be sole ruler, and he gets BBQ'd, just as Dany promised.

[Eyes High]

51 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Between Varys' death being essentially confirmed by Mel, and his increasing disenchantment with Dany, I'm guessing that when the truth of Jon's parentage comes out Varys tries to kill Dany so that Jon can be sole ruler, and he gets BBQ'd, just as Dany promised.

It does seem conspicuous that we get Melisandre confirming Varys' death one episode after Dany warns Varys that she'll BBQ him if he ever betrays her.

[Azi]

I can't remember, but Varys and Tyrion worrying about Dany will only be brought up in the next episode, right?

Is it too much to hope that they actually went and talked to her about it? Cause while I wouldn't BBQ anyone for it, I think I would be pretty annoyed with my counsel if they talked about getting me to listen with each other like I'm their unruly child after I didn't follow their advice 100% one time.

I get that Varys cares for the realm but he shouldn't be all "only my opinion is the right one" imo.

*technically this Post was supposed to go into the season 7 spoiler thread  (damn you posting from the phone), but I guess it also fits in here cause who knows who'll betray Dany in season 8 to keep her from roasting Cersei. 

Edited August 7, 2017 by Azi

[anamika]

So David and Dan just compared Arya's homecoming to that of Odysseus. This and the script line which says that ' She's Arya Stark of Winterfell, dammit!' has made me reconsider her ending.  I don't think she is going anywhere at the end of the series.  She is staying put in WF. Doing what is the next question...

[SeanC]

10 minutes ago, anamika said:

So David and Dan just compared Arya's homecoming to that of Odysseus. This and the script line which says that ' She's Arya Stark of Winterfell, dammit!' has made me reconsider her ending.  I don't think she is going anywhere at the end of the series.  She is staying put in WF. Doing what is the next question...

If you're going to extrapolate from that comparison (which I think is being used only in reference to that particular scene), the second-most-famous literary work about Odysseus is about him getting bored with home and leaving again to sail "beyond the baths of all the western stars".

[SeanC]

10 minutes ago, anamika said:

So David and Dan just compared Arya's homecoming to that of Odysseus. This and the script line which says that ' She's Arya Stark of Winterfell, dammit!' has made me reconsider her ending.  I don't think she is going anywhere at the end of the series.  She is staying put in WF. Doing what is the next question...

If you're going to extrapolate from that comparison (which I think is being used only in reference to that particular scene), the second-most-famous literary work about Odysseus is about him getting bored with home and leaving again to sail "beyond the baths of all the western stars".