Villains of the Legends

[kismet]

Area to discuss the Villains

[kismet]

With all the discussion of the shade given to VS in the last episode of LoT, I thought we might need a place to discuss the villains as characters since my posting is very little to do with the episode.

I did not have a problem with the casting of Casper Crump. However, the casting did not match up with the writing. I wonder if they had a different version of what they wanted to do with CC when they cast him and then it changed for unforeseen reasons. I could have imagined CC as a timeless villain. I do think he had a chill quality to him that I saw benefiting someone who lives many lives and infiltrates many different regimes. He was never menacing, but some of the most successful bad guys never are. They are the ones that sneak up on you with their evil intentions. That being said, the writing never supported that type of villain. So while I can see CC doing it, VS was supposed to be different.

I also never understood his whole obsession with Hawkgirl. In that regard the writing and the acting failed, because there was never chemistry between them. I get that for plot & comic reasons it needed to be, but I got more heat from Disney's Jafar's obsession with Princess Jasmine and that was a child's movie.

So while I appreciate the shade the show threw on Vandal Savage, I do think it was more about the shows failure as a whole to deliver a successful villain than just CC. And any show that can throw shade on itself, is good in my book. It shows a healthy understanding of their stories and their failures. Not everything will be successful, and getting a good laugh about it - seems like a healthy response.

[Miss Dee]

I read somewhere that basically the Legion is essentially the Legends, just based in evil. Thawne is the anti-Rip, going around recruiting people. That kind of set-up might actually work better for an ensemble show like this; you can cycle out your leader and your followers same as the heroes, and even have some change sides.

[Sakura12]

I'm enjoying the Legion of Doom this season. And I'm one that hated Malcolm after season 2 of Arrow. I know him and Darkh are chewing up scenery but it's fun so I'm fine with it. 

As for Vandal I think the mistake was tying him to the Hawks. They should've just let him be Rip's villain, that would've been enough. I think the Hawks were the biggest mistakes. 

[Argenta]

I love the Legion so much. Seeing these three powerful and dangerous men interacting is amazing. I actually really want them to win, and am not looking forward to their (inevitable?) defeat. I wonder if they'll turn on each other before the end, or if they actually manage to stay united. I doubt there's any personal loyalty there. 

[squidprincess]

I thought the Time Masters were actually the best villains of season one.  Even if their motives turned out to be a bit convoluted in the end, I thought the show did a really great job of unfolding them throughout the season.  They start off looking like a cheap knockoff of the Time Lords of Gallifrey, but as the episodes continued, there'd be more and more about them that didn't sit right.  For example, their ambush of Rip in Russia didn't make sense if their only issue was just protecting the timeline: Rip was planning to surrender.  Then we got to see how they treated Rip and Miranda, what they did to Chronos, sending assassins to murder children and so on just took the cake.  By the time Rip brought Savage to them in River of Time, it was clear they were somehow working with him, but the reveal was still dramatically satisfying.  And there were still those extra twists of the knife that came afterward.

Donovan's Druce was a bit on the "obviously sinister" side, but I thought the whole slow build/peel the onion reveal was really well done.

[kismet]

I did like the Time Masters. I think that the show was too hasty in getting rid of them. Which is why I predict they will not do the same with the Legion of Doom. I think some might die, but the concept will remain.

[BkWurm1]

2 hours ago, kismet said:

I did like the Time Masters. I think that the show was too hasty in getting rid of them. Which is why I predict they will not do the same with the Legion of Doom. I think some might die, but the concept will remain.

I feel like we haven't heard that last from the Time Masters.  There's bound to be one that rises.  Though that storyline would only really work if Rip was a regular on the show and I'm not sure if we've heard if he will be or not.  

I would love to keep the LoD around since they are so fun and since the season three renewal is already in the bag, I suppose they could just write the end of season two as mostly a cliff hanger and keep this same storyline going in some modified version.  

Though I confess, I'd love for Grodd to take over leadership as well.  

[squidprincess]

I have to admit, I'd be very surprised if they lost Darvill after they bent over backwards to accommodate his Broadchurch commitment.  It seems like if they were going to get rid of him completely, they'd have just wrote him out more permanently in Out of Time.

I also love the Legion of Doom.  I'm curious about what they're going to do with Merlyn.  The other Legion characters seem to already be set to pair off in an adversarial sense.  Eobard and Rip seem to have a past. and are the characters who actually, presumably, have some idea what is going on.  Sara wants to destroy Darhk for Laurel.  It sounds like 

Spoiler

Snart will be focused on Mick

But Merlyn doesn't seem to pair off as easily.  I suppose Sara has just as much right to a grudge against him as she does with Darhk, but she seems far more focused on the Darhk issue.  Merlyn seems like the odd man out.

Edited January 31, 2017 by squidprincess

[zannej]

I love the current villains on the show. For me, Vandal Savage never seemed believably menacing. There was just something soft in his eyes and it didn't quite work.

Despite the smiles and laughter from the current three, I can buy that they would kill. I find it interesting that Eobard had Rip tortured but didn't do any of the torturing himself. He never seemed to be someone who enjoyed torture and I do think he actually disliked that General Eiling tortured Grodd on The Flash. But he believes in doing what is necessary to get the job done, although he will avoid killing people he likes if he can manage it. I think that is why he made sure to save Stein (of course, perhaps Stein was necessary for the future to turn out the way he needed). When portrayed by Tom Cavanagh, Eobard never directly lied to Barry. I do think he believes in keeping his promises.

I think I could probably just watch the Legion of Doom team on their own show as they struggle to get the spear and stop the Black Flash from catching Eobard. I had suspected that if Eobard stayed in one place for too long he would get erased, but the twist with the Black Flash was even more interesting. Too bad the FX for the Black Flash are so derpy. Just looked bad. But Eobard's terror was great, and I loved seeing the changes to the balance of power and how the team worked together to trap Black Flash and escape.

At some point, I would like to see Malcolm get his hands on some sort of idol to give himself more power. I really hope they keep these three around for more than one season.

[kismet]

I want them around for a few more seasons, but please no more Idols of Power.

[Argenta]

Quote

Well, at least Phil is kind of scrawny.  It might have been a lot harder to fit him, Darhk and Merlyn in that [Time Sphere] if Rip Hunter had been played by Routh or Purcell.

I'd quite forgotten Phil/Rip! I was thinking of Malcolm, Eobard and Damien squishing themselves into the Sphere (assuming Eobard is still avoiding using his speed in order to not draw Black Flash's attention...)  Well, four people makes it even funnier. Imagine them all barrelling through Time with their noses squashed up against the glass...

Edited February 6, 2017 by Argenta

[Miss Dee]

Like Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure! I need to see this now.

So question for those who are more well-versed in comics lore than I am: Despite any writing issues, it was a truth almost universally acknowledged that Caspar Crump was miscast as Vandal Savage. Who would have been the right person to cast? Looks-wise and personality-wise, if they can't be found in the same actor. 

[MarkHB]

Honestly, if you blackened his hair Jason Momoa would pretty much nail it physically, and I think he could bring the presence as well (go look at the Comic-Con preview for Justice League to see his Aquaman in action).  The thing to remember is that, in the comics, he is a Cro-Magnon or early homo sapiens, and so regardless of all the intellectual advancement he has made his core underlying personality is that of a brutish caveman (apologies to the Geico Cavemen).

[Argenta]

Seconded - Jason Momoa comes instantly to mind whenever I think about someone large, hulking and physically menacing..

[Miss Dee]

Thats kind of the sense i got as well, from the way people talked about the character.

Would Dwayne Johnson work as well? Assuming he was more "The Rock" and less "The Tooth Fairy"?

[kismet]

But Jason Momoa & Dwayne Johnson would never do a CW show. I'm not saying Casper Crump was a good choice. But perhaps they were limited in who they could find.

[KirkB]

The thing I don't get is the whole issue could have been avoided if they had just stuck with calling him Hath Set, especially since they were tying him into the Hawks and ancient Egypt. I know it WAS the name he used back then and that in the comics Vandal Savage and Hath Set ended up being retconned (I'm presuming it didn't start out that way) into versions of the same person, but that is something only big time comics fans would know or care about. Vandal Savage is a fairly well known villains among casual fans even if you've only ever seen Young Justice. They could have played around with Hath Set as much as they wanted and unlike Savage he isn't really an archetype character with a very specific visual appearance.

[Featherhat]

They could have got JM if the show had been around right post SGA but not after he was cast in GOT most likely, even though he went through a couple of fallow periods.

I think Caspar Crump could have been an ok Vandal Savage, but not the Vandal Savage that they ended up writing, especially not one tied to the Hawks in that good awful Not!Quadrangle + Rip. They probably were limited in their choices of who to cast, but the other shows managed to cast better S1 villains and this had a guaranteed 16 ep commitment.

Still they've nicely cleared it up this season. The show is actually making the LOD more interesting than they were in their last appearances on their original shows and they play off each other fantastically. They still have a connection to the wider 'verse and personal connections to some of the team without it being too overblown (for now, unless Sara and Amaya go vengeance insane at the cost of the mission).

[MarkHB]

18 hours ago, kismet said:

But Jason Momoa & Dwayne Johnson would never do a CW show. I'm not saying Casper Crump was a good choice. But perhaps they were limited in who they could find.

Oh, I totally agree that they'd never have done it.  But the initial question was "who would have been perfect," and I took it in the sense of "give me a mental picture of what you'd be looking for."  Momoa would have been perfect in that regard.

[Miss Dee]

Yes, @MarkHB, that's what I meant. I know they wouldn't get those guys, I just wanted to get an idea of what he might look like in the minds of fans who knew the character.

[Starfish35]

Jason Momoa is a good pick.  I'm having a hard time coming up with other actors though.  I only know Vandal Savage from Justice League and Young Justice, but he is a big big guy.  And he's a very smooth talker. He's super intelligent, and my impression is that he's one of the only characters that can give Lex Luther a run for his money in being an evil world-dominating strategist. Maybe Benedict Cumberbatch?  I mean, hold the groans, lol.  I'm not saying they could actually get him.  But he does a wonderful smooth evil voice.  So...Jason Momoa with Benedict Cumberbatch's voice.  Lol.  Does that maybe help? :)

[Miss Dee]

Well, if nothing else, it helps me understand why the casting director was doomed from the start. "Get me Jason Momoa with Benedict Cumberbatch's voice!" could be a season-long MacGuffin on the show. 

[squidprincess]

Is this the right place to talk about evil Rip?  Because I hate to say it, but I thought he was easily more effective in one episode than Savage had been for an entire season.  I have no idea why Darhk and Merlyn are necessary at all, and I have no idea how they're going to:

Spoiler

incorporate Leonard Snart joining the Legion of Doom

when they're already doing a hero-gone-dark-through-no-fault-of-his-own plot very effectively now.

[Starfish35]

5 hours ago, Miss Dee said:

Well, if nothing else, it helps me understand why the casting director was doomed from the start. "Get me Jason Momoa with Benedict Cumberbatch's voice!" could be a season-long MacGuffin on the show. 

Lol.  Yeah I think I was overstating it.  I was just drawing a blank on anyone other than Jason.  And in fairness to Jason, part of that is just that I've never seen him play anything other than Ronon Dex (SGA).  (It's always going to be a little funny to me that of all the Stargate actors, he's ended up becoming the biggest name.)

I don't think it's impossible though.  I just was thinking this morning, after reading that Kevin Sorbo had been cast on Supergirl, that he could have done it in his younger years, if you darkened his hair.   Manu Bennett would have also been good if he hadn't already played Deathstroke on Arrow.  

I felt like, with Casper Crump, they just went with someone whose headshot looked like he could be Vandal Savage.

Edited February 8, 2017 by Starfish35

[Lokiberry]

1 hour ago, squidprincess said:

Is this the right place to talk about evil Rip?  Because I hate to say it, but I thought he was easily more effective in one episode than Savage had been for an entire season.  I have no idea why Darhk and Merlyn are necessary at all, and I have no idea how they're going to:

  Hide contents

incorporate Leonard Snart joining the Legion of Doom

when they're already doing a hero-gone-dark-through-no-fault-of-his-own plot very effectively now.

Evil!Rip was both sexy and efficient; making him a significant upgrade from from your typical flarrowverse villain.

Spoiler

I guess it's too much to hope for Rip and Snart to team up and be evil and sexy together.

[Miss Dee]

Spoiler

I have to say: with Rip being evil and Snart joining the Legion, I really don't see how Mick can cross sides too without it seeming like overkill or a recycled WWE storyline. I'm crossing my  fingers that those hints from the producers are to rile up fans only.

[zannej]

Speaking of WWE, I think maybe The Big Show might have made an interesting Vandal Savage in terms of his size.

Has Jason Momoa's acting improved since he was on SG:Atlantis? I remember him being a terrible actor on that. When I heard he was cast as Aquaman, I was cringing. Never bothered to watch it.

I do think that the writing for Vandal Savage was not done well, but also, Caspar Crump lacked menace. I don't know if it was his fault though. I think it was how they told him to play it.

I'm really loving the current villains though. I missed Damien and Malcolm in the last episode, but it was fun seeing Eobard. Looks like he is still using his speed though.

[MarkHB]

This isn't the right thread to discuss this (it has its own topic in the Movies forum), but you can see pretty much all we've seen of Momoa as Aquaman in this.

[zannej]

On 2/10/2017 at 7:23 AM, MarkHB said:

This isn't the right thread to discuss this (it has its own topic in the Movies forum), but you can see pretty much all we've seen of Momoa as Aquaman in this.

Thanks. After seeing that, I think Jason Momoa would not have been good as Vandal Savage-- unless all Vandal Savage did was growl and glare at people.

Anyway, I wonder how they will work in Captain Cold and if incorporating him will come around to bite them in the end.

[squidprincess]

I've been wondering about that too.  It is kind of interesting that Captain Cold happens to possess one of the best anti-speedster weapons around.  Eobard is rather hard to stop.

But I wonder how they'll actually bring him in.  I doubt they're going to do another brainwashing plot, so I'd imagine he joins up willingly.  But I've never seen them having very compatible styles or personalities even when Snart was a full on villain.

[Miss Dee]

Mick was pretty valuable on this mission. What if he proves to be valuable on the next one as well, and the next? Eventually I can see the Legion wondering how to take one of them out, if not Mick in particular, and Rip going "Hmm...." Then POOF! He takes off in that sphere-looking thingy. Someone wonders "Now where the hell is he going?" POOF! He's back immediately with a bloody and half-conscious Captain Cold in tow. "Just got us a new recruit, boys. Now it's time to go pick up another." They brainwash CC the way they did Rip to be part of the Legion, and use him to try to tempt Mick to the Dark Side....

[squidprincess]

That seems fairly reasonable, but I don't think Eobard would have access to Snart's brain in the same way he had access to Rip's (via Phil and the brain-disk-thing).  He'd have to use some other method of brainwashing.

[Miss Dee]

True. Too bad!

For all of his bad-boy ways, we know Len cares enough about Mick to sacrifice his life for him. (Mick was the one going to die in that time explosion because he knocked Ray out of the way.) I'd hate to think he would look at Mick while in his right mind, see that he's doing well and flourishing, and deliberately try to sabotage it. But i cant see why they'd even consider bringing Cold in if it's not something to do with Mick. (Or maybe Sara.)

I could see Eobard deliberately taking on his face and doing it himself though. Hmm.

[Lokiberry]

I'm pretty sure they're going to get an earlier version of Snart, and just tell him he dies in the future, and the only way to save himself is to throw in with the Legion. He'll probably turn on them eventually over Mick, or because he figures Thawne isn't going to keep his promises, or something like that.

[scarynikki12]

Don't forget Sara. He was crushing on her from jump. His BFF+pretty blonde who can kick his ass=Legion doesn't stand a chance. 

If Snart does come back and join the Legion there's also the possibility that Thawne messes with his mind like Rip. 

[yellowfred]

I doubt they'd go with any sort of brainwashing for Snart, just because it would be kind of redundant, with Rip already brainwashed.  Besides, I think offering him a chance to use the Spear of Destiny to rewrite reality would probably be enough to get him on board.  Like, one of the first things he did on Legends was go back to try and change his and his sister's childhood by keeping their father out of prison.  If they also tell him that he's destined to die in some heroic sacrifice, I doubt he'd need any additional incentive to join up. 

I also don't think Mick being against him would necessarily be a deal breaker for Snart, assuming he's not able to turn him.  It was established last season that, if he believes he's doing what's right for them, Snart has no problem going against what Mick wants.  Having the chance to rewrite their reality however it suits them would certainly qualify. 

[zannej]

Yeah, they could probably tell Snart he ends up dead and his sister ends up without her brother and that if he throws in with them he will be able to change things so his father does not turn out to be such a d-bag and he and his sister have better lives with happy childhoods. They can even promise to make things better for his pal Mick for him as well.

[zannej]

Since this involves the villains, I wonder what people think about Eobard not having superspeed out in space and on the moon. Ray attributed it to "zero gravity" but the moon has gravity. So, wouldn't he have had speed while on the moon?

My theory was that he *could* have used his speed but was refraining from doing so to avoid drawing the attention of Zombie Zoom. Also, he promised to "play nice until" he got back to Earth. Because the Waverider had gravity too. So, either Ray was wrong about the gravity being the cause and it was because he needs to be within Earth's atmosphere to access the speedforce, or he was just refraining from using it.

And then we have the bit where he talked about Cisco and Caitlin and missing the camaraderie. But didn't he say he got pulled from the timeline by the Flash and held captive for months and then he was let go and was being hunted. Did he just omit the whole spending 15 years in the past thing?

Because the Eobard that Barry pulled out of time hadn't killed Nora and spent 15 years in the past-- and the one who spent 15 years in the past disintegrated when Eddie died. So, how could he be the time remnant of the latter? Did he somehow gain the memories and feelings of the Eobard who spent the 15 years in the past? Or did he just remember stuff Barry told him (about his ancestor killing himself and perhaps about the team-- I imagine Barry vented to him a lot about his transgressions in the 15-year-period) and just lied to Ray to try to win him over.

He really is quite clever and a master manipulator because he managed to get Ray to sympathize with him. I do think it was  mixture of truth in there though. I think he does crave the camaraderie of fellow scientists, but he also probably realized that Ray is the type of person who has a heart and could be swayed by seeing Eobard as human. I really loved how he pointed out that Ray could have used the dwarf star element in his suit to power an entire city but chose to become something greater-- doing something for his own personal gain because he wasn't satisfied with being a nobody (nevermind that he'd been the CEO of a company and had quite a bit of power and influence). And how he smiled so brightly while talking about walking on the moon-- but then how he lowered his guard just a little and showed some vulnerability and sadness when he said he wanted the spear because he wanted to live. IMO, it was a cleverly calculated (yet at least partially honest) play on his part. He knew that showing Ray that vulnerability and letting him know that his life was at stake might help him gain a little influence. And it worked in the end because instead of trying to shoot him with the speedster weapon, Ray let him go-- but Ray still held some of the upper hand by pointing out that Eobard wouldn't have time to find the spear pieces. But, in Eobard's favor, he has gotten under Ray's skin a little and garnered enough sympathy that it could be used at a critical moment to his advantage again.

Moving on to the other villains, I started thinking about what each of the villains would want if they could alter reality (and we will find out soon with an upcoming episode).

Eobard: He will want to have his family and life restored so he can have his friends, home, etc. But, I don't buy that he would limit it to just that-- I think he'd want to have prestige and be adored by the masses and be faster than the Flash ever was. Because once he had what he needed to be safe, he would want to feel fulfilled.

Malcolm: He would want to have his wife and son alive. Tommy (his son) would probably be a successful and responsible person-- possibly a doctor. He'd also want a good relationship with his daughter Thea. I think he's also want his wealth and power back and he'd want to live in a safe community-- or perhaps have the League of Assassins at his beck and call.

Snart: He'd want to be alive and for his father to not have been a complete jerk and to have had a happy childhood for himself and his sister. Beyond that, he'd probably want to be rich and perhaps still be buddies with Mick.

Damien: I think he would probably be the most malicious out of the villains. He would want wealth and extreme power. He would probably want to have absolute power and for his subjects to live in fear of him. He claimed to have wanted to create a utopia by killing off most of the world save for the people in his little dome, but what he really wanted was control and he knew he couldn't control that many people. So, in his altered reality, he would want to be able to control the world. He'd also want to make his enemies suffer-- because I don't think he's a person who would feel satisfied without having some enemies to torment.

Any other thoughts?

[KirkB]

The Waverider is the only place Thawne could effectively use his speed. When he and Ray were on the lander in zero gravity he couldn't plant his feet and get traction, no friction, so no running. No darting around avoiding Ray at super speed. On the moon there is some gravity, but less. More to the point, they were in a tiny metal box which could be easily pierced by a guy moving at a few hundred miles an hour, and speedster or not I'm pretty sure Thawne can't survive explosive decompression or a hard vacuum. On the Waverider all bets are off, which is why he got out of the cage so easily. On the other hand, his watch also went off so not using his powers to avoid zombie Zoom was obviously part of it.

As for the Legion and the Spear, I think you're mostly right.

Snart would have the less grandiose desires of the group. Either making his father a better man in the first place so he and his sister don't grow up so miserable, or just make the two of them wealthy and safe now. He mostly just wants to be happy, and stealing makes him happy. So maybe a key to every security system in the world?

Thawne in an odd one. He's brilliant, insanely fast, and comes from a wondrous future. It doesn't seem like he would have a lot of wants or needs. But he does resent the fact the Flash is faster and more popular than him. And this also Thawne has a Pinocchio issue, he's not a real boy, he's a time remnant, so he'd probably want to fix that. And be famous and the fastest while he's at it.

Malcolm, it seems, mostly wants to show the world he's a big deal. Rich. Famous. When he lost his family he lost his mind, but his ego was also inflated by being a better archer than Oliver, and later Ra's al Ghul. So given the chance to reshape the world I'm not sure the first thing it would occur to him to do is bring back his dead wife and son. First he might want to remind the world what a big deal he is. Maybe he'd make himself President or go big and become Emperor or something. The adulation from his family would come later.

Now Dark, he is the straight up most supervillain of the bunch. Taking over the world or destroying it, same damn thing. He was told his plans fail and his wife dies and he'd want to change that, but his motivations would hardly be so benign. He'd wipe out as many people as possible so none of them could threaten him or his in the future. Genocide is clearly not an issue for him. I could easily see Dark doing a scorched earth on a massive scale sort of thing, wiping out everyone and everything so he can rebuild it in his own image.

[zannej]

Apparently Matt actually brought up that the moon and Waverider have gravity thing but ultimately decided to just "support the story". So they were aware it didn't make sense, but they are the actors, not the writers. (Matt said that on Twitter). I noticed that Eobard didn't use his speed on the Waverider until they entered the Earth's atmosphere. I'm just going to pretend that being within the Earth's atmosphere was the key-- although you have a good point about him not wanting to end up out in space where he couldn't breathe and the lack of pressure would cause him to explode.

I don't know if Malcolm would need to be the absolute top, but I think he'd like to be in the highest ranks-- maybe 2nd in command. He's shown he's willing to defer to someone he believes is more of a threat. But I *do* think that he would want to get his family and his hand back before he sought any personal glory.

I think that Eobard is similar in that he would put family and getting back what he lost as the priority and then he would want the power, glory, etc.

I completely agree with you on Damien. He doesn't seem to have the inclination to care about family (at least not at this stage-- since he hasn't found Ruve or had his daughter yet). I imagine his original family died out long ago and he's gotten used to living without them. I think having lived as long as he has made him have less appreciation for life. He's probably watched countless friends/family members die over the years. So to him, watching the world burn is not a big deal. He was around when the population was smaller and he'd probably want it bring it back to that level again. Sort of like Vandal Savage.

[Maverick]

 I thought Thawne waited until they were on Earth to escape because that was the agreement he made.  He knew Ray wouldn't make the deal if he was just going to take over the Waverider and kill them all.  

[Argenta]

On 16/03/2017 at 7:10 PM, zannej said:

Since this involves the villains, I wonder what people think about Eobard not having superspeed out in space and on the moon. Ray attributed it to "zero gravity" but the moon has gravity. So, wouldn't he have had speed while on the moon?

Definitely doesn't make sense, but that's not really uncommon on Legends and other shows like it, I suppose...

On 16/03/2017 at 7:10 PM, zannej said:

And then we have the bit where he talked about Cisco and Caitlin and missing the camaraderie. But didn't he say he got pulled from the timeline by the Flash and held captive for months and then he was let go and was being hunted. Did he just omit the whole spending 15 years in the past thing?

As for this one...my pet theory is that although this version of Eobard didn't firsthand live through the whole posing-as-Wells/S.T.A.R. Labs thing, he somehow has access to all the memories of his different iterations. We've seen people gaining new memories on this show before as a result of timeline changes - Martin's memories of his daughter being the obvious example. So I kind of loosely imagine that once Eobard became a time remnant, he started 'remembering' everything all the Eobards had done. Because Speedforce!

Sorry, it's the best I can do :D

On 16/03/2017 at 7:10 PM, zannej said:

Moving on to the other villains, I started thinking about what each of the villains would want if they could alter reality (and we will find out soon with an upcoming episode).

I think you and KirkB are correct in pegging Damien as the most dangerous of the bunch. Based on what we've seen of the Legion members before, Malcolm, Eobard and Snart's goals seem more small-scale and personal, whereas Damien was all "Let's wipe out most of humanity, and do it with a big cheerful smile!" 

I think primarily, Eobard wants to live as a whole person and not a time remnant being chased by Zombie Zoom. He'd want his former life and family line restored, and since I don't think he could ever let go of his hatred of the Flash, he'd probably have 'plans' for Barry as well - either tormenting him, or erasing him from existence. 

Malcolm I'd think would similarly want to undo his losses and failures, especially his wife's death. 

The Spear would give them such enormous power though that I doubt they'd be willing to stop with just those personal things...

(It's just occurred to me that Ray mentioned the name 'the Legion' to Eobard's face last episode - shame the writers didn't include a line where Eobard scoffs at such a silly nickname.)

[squidprincess]

Eobard may have already heard the nickname.  There was a point in Turncoat, where brainwashed Rip says something like "the Legion will reward me, and could reward you too" to Jax.  It struck me as odd at the time, since I couldn't figure out where Rip would have learned the nickname.  Except maybe as Phil.

[KirkB]

Malcolm and Dark (especially Dark) would absolutely embrace a title like Legion of Doom. Thawne would roll his eyes at it, and probably go on a diatribe about how three people isn't much of a legion.

[zannej]

On 3/18/2017 at 7:40 PM, Argenta said:

Definitely doesn't make sense, but that's not really uncommon on Legends and other shows like it, I suppose...

As for this one...my pet theory is that although this version of Eobard didn't firsthand live through the whole posing-as-Wells/S.T.A.R. Labs thing, he somehow has access to all the memories of his different iterations. We've seen people gaining new memories on this show before as a result of timeline changes - Martin's memories of his daughter being the obvious example. So I kind of loosely imagine that once Eobard became a time remnant, he started 'remembering' everything all the Eobards had done. Because Speedforce!

Sorry, it's the best I can do :D

I think you and KirkB are correct in pegging Damien as the most dangerous of the bunch. Based on what we've seen of the Legion members before, Malcolm, Eobard and Snart's goals seem more small-scale and personal, whereas Damien was all "Let's wipe out most of humanity, and do it with a big cheerful smile!" 

I think primarily, Eobard wants to live as a whole person and not a time remnant being chased by Zombie Zoom. He'd want his former life and family line restored, and since I don't think he could ever let go of his hatred of the Flash, he'd probably have 'plans' for Barry as well - either tormenting him, or erasing him from existence. 

Malcolm I'd think would similarly want to undo his losses and failures, especially his wife's death. 

The Spear would give them such enormous power though that I doubt they'd be willing to stop with just those personal things...

(It's just occurred to me that Ray mentioned the name 'the Legion' to Eobard's face last episode - shame the writers didn't include a line where Eobard scoffs at such a silly nickname.)

Matt Letscher said he made a Periscope post to explain with pictures how this is the time remnant of the Eobard who spent time as Dr. Wells. But I don't know what periscope is (I'm assuming it is something like snapchat-- which I don't use) or how to find the pictures. He said he was going to do another thing and give people more of a heads up, but I haven't seen him mentioning it again. So, I really have no clue.

That said, I do like the pet theory about Eobard getting the memories of other iterations of himself. Actually, being able to remember the various versions would be somewhat maddening and could be another explanation for why he's a bit nuts and why he would want to restore things.

[Argenta]

9 hours ago, zannej said:

Matt Letscher said he made a Periscope post to explain with pictures how this is the time remnant of the Eobard who spent time as Dr. Wells. But I don't know what periscope is (I'm assuming it is something like snapchat-- which I don't use) or how to find the pictures. He said he was going to do another thing and give people more of a heads up, but I haven't seen him mentioning it again. So, I really have no clue.

I saw all the references to this on Matt's Twitter, yeah. Periscope is a fairly new feature of Twitter which allows people to do live video streams. Once done, the stream is saved for 24 hours during which people can still view it, but after that it's deleted, so unfortunately it's gone for good now.

Sounded like it was very impromptu, but I go on Twitter every day so if I see he's planning to do something similar, I'll definitely post a heads-up here. Perhaps you could do the same if you see it first?

I remember Tom Cavanagh also doing a video at some point to explain how Eobard could even still exist after being erased. It's kind of funny (in a nice way) to watch these poor actors trying to help their viewers make sense of the timeline weirdness the writers throw at us all, while struggling to understand it themselves :)

Edited March 22, 2017 by Argenta

[kismet]

I know I should not be happy that the Bad Guys got the Spear, but am looking forward to seeing what they do with it. I really enjoyed the show from their perspective earlier this season, so I'm hoping for a good episode again.

I do think -

Thawne - wants to use it to become a real boy. I liked @KirkB's Pinocchio reference. He did bad things in the past, but I can't really get a feel on his current motives.

Malcolm - I think wants to be the big Kahuna. Big Press & the world loving him. He wants everyone to know he is a big thing.

Mick - Wants Snart back and his brother back. Perhaps the least power craving of them.

Snart - Wants to be Alive again. Plus I think he does crave the power.

Damien - I think worries me the most because he wants absolute power and I don't think he has any limitations or moral code to guide him. I don't think he minds complete genocide. So while he thinks he wants to be alive again - I don't believe he will be content with just being alive and having a little power. I think he will try to take over the world again and people will die.

[squidprincess]

I think we give Thawne too much credit.  He's not just some guy who wants to be a real boy.  He's a man who menaced the future, made an enemy of Barry Allen then, and then came back in time to kill Barry's mother in an attempt to stop Barry from existing.  When that backfired and he was trapped, he murdered and schemed his way into the man we saw in season 1 of Flash.

He seems to have a particular taste for corruption.  He seemed to delight in his role as creator and mentor of Barry Allen, and being able to manipulate the team into collecting metahumans for him.  And he had that same glee when he violated Rip's mind and turned him into a monster.

I don't think Thawne is going to be happy just restoring his own existence or going back to the future.  He's the character that's going to delight most in changing everything into his own image.

[kismet]

Well perhaps he wants to be a real boy with a bad guy agenda. Even sociopath's were children once. I truly have no idea what Thawne wants to do with the spear besides become real again. I assume he might have some deeper agenda, but honestly the show has not done a good idea fleshing out what that might be.