S03.E08: In The Same Figure, Like The King That's Dead

[formerlyfreedom]

Jasper tries to strike a bargain to protect his past and secure his future; Helena slips away for a romantic trip to Paris; Eleanor participates in a nearly naked tiger run; Liam and Willow try to navigate emotional waters.

[EarlGreyTea]

Snoozer of an episode except for Eleanor's new bodyguard, whom I totally love. Bumbling, funny, and sweet. I nominate her to be Eleanor's new BFF.

I realize how completely dull I find an episode that does not have any Eleanor and Jasper scenes. They might have made up for it with some Robert/Willow, but I think the show was filmed so far in advance that they won't be able to take advantage of that chemistry until next season. It's hard to know how an audience will react to a potential pairing ahead of time. Maybe she'll be the one to drop the Liam/Kate bomb on Robert, though he may be inclined to shoot the messenger. I loved her smackdown of Liam.

I can't see how in any way Liam deserves to be king, but I'm blinded by how completely babyish I find him this season, so I don't want him to have anything nice. Good on Helena for putting her damn foot down. A hashtag does not create a king. They really ruined Liam this season. Robert is one hell of a chessmaster. He may want to actually step aside as king, but it was totally awesome in a Machiavellian kind of way to make Helena take the fall. Utterly brilliant.

Kathryn's sister is far more interesting than Kathryn herself. Why couldn't they have given a little personality to the love interest of two of the main characters instead of wasting it on her sister, a minor character?

Liam is watchable pretty much only with Eleanor and especially Jasper. They should limit him to mostly scenes with those two. They are pretty much the only two characters he is not a whiny baby with.

Edited January 30, 2017 by EarlGreyTea

[omgsowicked]

This episode had some strange developments... Eleanor's bodyguard went from super competent to a bumbling dweeb (it was kind of funny, though), a fox ran around the palace (with Eleanor finding it to be the perfect way to fall asleep, lmfao), Helena's now all about that rich developer guy, almost everything with Liam and Robert, and then bringing back that guy who shot down Robert's plane...

So Liam and Robert made up, mostly because Robert managed something Liam the Baby couldn't, empathy. Everything Robert did in this episode proved why he should be King. He buttered Liam up, sympathized with him, and encouraged him to ask Helena to support him as King. It was unlikely but it could have gotten Robert out of line for the throne, which he seems like he may want. But he likely knew that it was a fruitless and was smart enough to make Helena take the fall and position himself as the good guy in all of it, so Liam will stop fighting him every step of the way. Brilliant.

Back to their talk, Liam has been such a brat, and the fact that Robert apologized for not considering what Liam had gone through all that time... really?! Robert's been a bit pompous and has pushed Liam's buttons, for sure, but Liam's been a brat to someone who has no clue why, so Robert taking the blame for most of their issues probably made Liam feel like he had been justified. I'm just glad Willow handed his ass to him, and it wasn't about the monarchy so he couldn't pull any of that "but I was gonna be King!" pouty bullshit. Man, I really did like them together but Willow and Robert had some great chemistry in the last episode so maybe... maybe. Speaking of Robert, I continue to be a little confused about what kind of person he is every time he makes some cocky comment, like, "why wouldn't you want to be me, I'm so great," or whatever he said in this episode. I couldn't tell if it was meant to be sarcastic or if he really thinks he's awesome because his expression and voice suggested both.

I'm glad Sebastian and Eleanor had a nice day together and that he's respecting her wishes to remain friends. Like Helena said in this episode, she has no friends, so I'd like it if Eleanor didn't have that problem as well. I'm not happy that Jasper is using that smug reporter to dig up dirt on Sebastian. Dude, you abruptly ended things and have gone quiet, and you think you have any right to interfere with her life? Get bent. I thought Rosie was too over the top comical in this episode, considering how badass she was previously, but I did appreciate the silliness. I hope she becomes Eleanor's friend, though I'm still feeling warm to the idea of them dating (even though it would be another bodyguard situation). I'd like to see bodyguard!Rosie and Liam cross paths, since they had a beer together.

I don't dislike Helena and the American developer but I wish there had been more scenes showing how well they got along before they told us that she had her happiest day in a long time. What about him is so great? We saw a conversation or two and some extravagant excursions. Meanwhile we've seen many more scenes with her and the Chamberlain, so I at least get what's going on there. I liked that Helena called him a pussy... however, they didn't make it clear what they are, so I understood why he was upset. But she's the Queen of England (and he's an employee) so of course she'd do whatever she wanted without thinking too much about it.

They brought back the guy who shot down Robert's plane, so are they circling back to the Domino plot? I don't see the point, now that Domino's leader is dead, as is Ted (who was involved with them). Is Domino still operating? Will the leader's body be found in the river? Where are they going with this?

Oh yeah, and Cyrus... that was weird. I like her but why is Cinnamon (or Saffron?) his go-to gal now? I'm worried they're painting themselves into a corner, between his cancer and now him saying he'd kill himself if he loses the crown. And the dead body he dumped in the river might be connected to him. The character is abhorrent but the actor is great, so for that reason I hope we don't lose him. Maybe they'll bring back Violet (no body, no death).

[kat165]

Earl, I have to agree with you re: Eleanor and Jasper. Which still surprises the hell out of me. I've stopped watching shows because of "relationships." But, huge Tom Austen crush, also unlike me.

I did kind of get into the Robt/Liam making up thing. That Robt is a clever one. Was he sincere or did he set Liam up to fail, again? He had to have known that mummy would be backing him. Or does he not really care all that much? Maybe her saying "yes' to Liam would be a great way out for him. Does he really want to be king or not? Or is he going back and forth on it?

I don't think Liam is ready to be king, as Helena said. Once Robt was thought to be dead he made some progress but still not enough, still not in Robt's league . Robt is proving to be quite savvy. He's more than capable of "handling" both Helena and Cyrus.

"He may want to actually step aside as king, but it was totally awesome in a Machiavellian kind of way to make Helena take the fall. Utterly brilliant. " - so well said.

Yeah, Robt is slippery. We never really know if he is being sincere or manipulative.

I really like foxes, and ridiculous as it was I loved that the fox ended up on Eleaonor's bed and she let it stay.

Omg, yeah, I thought so too with the weird development's. Especially bringing back the guy who shot Robt down. Although I was glad to see that. This season needed a few more plotlines that had nothing to do with love lives. I wonder if they are going to do some rewriting of that plotline. Was it really Ted or will someone new be behind it? So, yeah, where are they going with this? And I don't get why that guy would want to tell a reporter. No matter who paid him to shoot Robt down he still did it, he's still liable. How is going to prison redemption?

Helena and the Chamberlan (sp?) was kind of funny too. I almost felt sorry for the guy. Not caring the Amercian real estate guy. Yes, what about him is so great?

I continue to enjoy Cyrus's wardrobe. He wears the funkiest getups. And the most colorful.

I was surprised at the Rosie silliness too. I expected more from her. But she is a nice addition, when she isn't being silly. Is she the tough chick from Kate's bar who has the one 1/2 armed brother? If so, she was much tougher in those scenes. This seems like a different person.

Btw, what shoes should she have worn on her first day?

I don't think that was Cin/Saffron. I think she was the fishmonger woman, the one Helena used to trick Cyrus into thinking what's her name was back, his one true love. Remember how the birdhead voodoo guy (shoe salesman!) was going over what Cyrus needed to the spell or whatever and he said she was standing in for his true heart's desire? So I'm pretty sure that was not Saffron who is more round eyed and dopey looking. This one seems like she possibly has a brain.

[GaT]

Soooo, that was...boring. Nothing happened, besides Robert coming back, nothing ever happens anymore. They need an actual plot on this show, not just random stuff happening to people.

[Blondie]

Robert reminds me of his Uncle, the sitting king.  He's devious and self centered.  While the actor is very good, I don't like the character.
Liam is a milder version of what we saw of his father.  His character is becoming childish though.
The queen is still a bit of a snake in the grass!  I love her.

[Scott]

Yes, it was boring, and nothing really happened, and all that.  But if they keep putting Sebastian on naked endangered species runs, I'll watch at least a few more episodes.

[kat165]

GaT, well hopefully the appearance of the guy who shot Robt down will bring some much needed PLOT.

Blondie, I feel kind of the opposite. I don't like the actor but the character of Robt has added some spice this season. Otherwise nothing of interest is really going on. King Simon had a lot more gravitas than Liam will ever have.

[phoenics]

I agree kat165.  Liam doesn't have any gravitas.  At all.  William Moseley is simply outclassed by Max Brown in the acting chops department.  They would have to completely destroy Robert's character in order to ever make Liam look like he deserved to be King.  Right now, Liam seems to think that because he worked hard and got better than he had been before Robert's death, that he somehow deserves to be King.  But that's ... stupid.  Robert worked HIS WHOLE LIFE for that and you can tell.  He's simply better at it and he's easily in the same league as King Simon.

I think Liam is actually more self centered and devious - he's just a whiny baby about it.  Robert is handling his ish like an adult.  Liam has been sniping at him ever since he got back and acting like he wished Robert had stayed dead.  That's self centered.  And oh - sneaking around behind Robert's back to try to woo Kate away from Robert?  That's devious.  There's a reason why the show deliberately made a Cyrus/Liam parallel last week.  Hopefully so we could all see that Liam was heading down a horrible path - thankfully he seemed to turn from it but still - all he cared about was getting to be King even still.

Liam is NOT ready to be King.  Like - at all.  He can't even handle his brother or anyone else - how could he lead the monarchy?  Robert was masterful.  At first I was impressed that Liam was FINALLY coming clean - but then he seemed to STILL expect to be handed the crown.  I was angry Robert was capitulating to him - Liam whines like a baby all season long and then Robert just rolls over for him when Liam is clearly not ready?

I was cheering at the end for Robert - he was absolutely 1000% correct in bringing Liam's grievance to Helena.  Helena was weird, imo, for bashing Robert for it - Helena should have handled Liam's whiny baby self a long time ago but they were all coddling him.  Liam hasn't shown one good reason why he should be King over Robert - and it barely has anything to do with Robert being the heir.  It's that Robert is prepared.  Liam is just spoiled and entitled and seems to think he should be given the crown.  I have no idea why Helena was mad at Robert - he did exactly the right thing bringing Liam's foolishness out into the open so the Queen could put it down like the diseased dog that it is.

Liam has been utterly ruined this season.  And now I'm mad because Robert has much better chemistry with Willow than Liam does, but of course now Liam is gonna run after Willow... but honestly a better story would be Willow employing some devious chops and outing Kate and taking up with Robert herself.  Let Liam have Kate after their affair is outed.

Also - did Liam seriously go into a bar to get smashed - AGAIN?  Doesn't he have any concept of how the press would eat that up?  A prince getting drunk in a pub - again.  And he thinks he should have been King?  Could you ever see Simon getting drunk in a public pub?  No?  Neither can I.

I do wonder if Robert was playing both ends with Helena and Liam.  And that it may not be that he wanted to put an end to Liam's foolishness, but that he also wanted an out for himself - to leave the line of succession and be with Kate?  Not sure about that one.

Helena's fight with Lord Chamberlain was ... interesting ... but I kept waiting for him to stalk over to her and kiss her.  The American guy is boring as hell.  Okay so he's wining and dining her, but he's BORING!  Money can't buy interest I guess.  Plus the actor is unattractive to me.

I LOVE Sebastian.  LOVE HIM.  Can we keep him if there is a 4th season?  He doesn't have to be with Eleanor, but they could be friends still.  

So - what did the guy who downed Robert's plane tell Jasper?  Did he have info about Domino?  The guy Cyrus killed and buried?  Or was it something else?  Or did he just tell Jasper about Sebastian spending time with Eleanor?  He did do the whole "there's something else you should know" right after they were talking about Jasper doing all of this for love, right?  Need to go back and look again.

 

Are we even going to get a 4th season?  I'm afraid this is the last season?

Edited January 31, 2017 by phoenics

[catrice2]

Somehow I think whatever he told Jasper has to do with Robert. I don't put it past this show to ruin Robert and Sebastian. Why should Jasper dig up dirt on Sebastian? So predictable.

I'm not sure what Robert's end game is, but all I can say is he handles himself well.  Even if he turns out to be bent as they say in English television, I'd rather watch him being dirty than to watch Liam supposedly be the hero any day of the week.

I don't need any more montages with him,memories or sulking, it is just played out at this point.

Katherine is boring and Cyrus is turning pathetic.

Sebastian is the only thing I can stand about Eleanor. I'm sorry she looks 20 years older than the actress that plays her mother and she just has nothing to do but sit around and sulk after her love interests who betray her or hurt her little feelings. My lord when they were showing them in those outfits all I could think of was they need to feed her quickly.

Helena's love life couldn't be less interesting. Whatever his title is, where did he think sleeping with her was going to lead?

Didn't like how silly they made Rosie.  They could have conveyed the fish out of water without making her incompetent.

I just can't with the fox

[EarlGreyTea]

5 hours ago, phoenics said:

I agree kat165.  Liam doesn't have any gravitas.  At all.  William Moseley is simply outclassed by Max Brown in the acting chops department.  They would have to completely destroy Robert's character in order to ever make Liam look like he deserved to be King.  Right now, Liam seems to think that because he worked hard and got better than he had been before Robert's death, that he somehow deserves to be King.  But that's ... stupid.  Robert worked HIS WHOLE LIFE for that and you can tell.  He's simply better at it and he's easily in the same league as King Simon.

Helena's fight with Lord Chamberlain was ... interesting ... but I kept waiting for him to stalk over to her and kiss her.  The American guy is boring as hell.  Okay so he's wining and dining her, but he's BORING!  Money can't buy interest I guess.  Plus the actor is unattractive to me.

Excellent post. I will be PEEVED if they somehow make Robert turn heel or make him illegitimate or whatever the hell else to make way for Liam. He's the best thing to happen to the show since Eleanor and Jasper, IMO. Having said that, I think they are setting him up for a fall. He's a bit TOO polished, a bit TOO earnest. I think all those long brooding shots of Liam mean we're supposed to be rooting for him, plus the simple fact that he's been on the show longer.

The Lord Chamberlain has insane chemistry with Helena. I love their dynamic together.

Edited February 1, 2017 by EarlGreyTea

[phoenics]

22 minutes ago, EarlGreyTea said:

Excellent post. I will be PEEVED if they somehow make Robert turn heel or make him illegitimate or whatever the hell else to make way for Liam. He's the best thing to happen to the show since Eleanor and Jasper, IMO. Having said that, I think they are setting him up for a fall. He's a bit TOO polished, a bit TOO earnest. I think all those long brooding shots of Liam mean we're supposed to be rooting for him, plus the simple fact that he's been on the show longer.

The Lord Chamberlain has insane chemistry with Helena. I love their dynamic together.

Yes I agree the show seems to be setting Liam up as the one to root for - but I simply cannot root for him.  And I'm angry that the show is going to make Robert take a fall - the show is BETTER with Robert - even though the Liam-fangirls can't seem to stop hating Robert enough to realize that he's energized them all - even if they hate him - he's actually energized the show.

There's a reviewer for the show on spoiler tv that hardly ever gets comments on her show reviews past 10 or 11 comments, but man oh man did they get riled up about Robert!  It went to over 80 comments the last time I checked.  The show would be really stupid to let go of Max Brown.

And is it just me, or is Prince Robert getting more and more fine each week?  Max Brown is an amazing actor - because he can communicate so much with just a look, curl of the lip, or jaw clench.  And I found myself fangirling like he was for real royalty when he showed up at the pub to surprise Kate.  I looked at my sister and went - "I just screamed like he was the true Prince of Wales surprising the next Diana/Kate".  He just embodies the whole royalty thing so much better than William Moseley.  Actually, William hasn't embodied "royalty" since the pilot when he was throwing darts.  But Robert... man.  That's how you'd envision someone ready to take the throne as King.

But I really hope they don't pull a "Robert is Alistair's son" stunt.  That feels trite and it would just make me even more angry that Liam would get to be King - because Liam doesn't deserve it.  He's immature, spoiled, selfish and entitled.  Sure - he is a nice kid - but the way he's been acting so entitled to the throne just because he grew up a little is annoying.  It's like watching someone start an entry level job, manage to do an okay job (i.e., not show up for work drunk, etc) and then demand to become CEO.

Just no.

But Helena's "It's Robert's time" dialogue makes me think they're gonna pull the rug out from underneath Robert and that would put Liam on the throne.  That sucks monkey balls - because Liam really doesn't deserve it and he's not ready.  And he's not going to get ready in 2 episodes either.

I wonder when Robert finds out about Liam and Kate.

[EarlGreyTea]

45 minutes ago, phoenics said:

There's a reviewer for the show on spoiler tv that hardly ever gets comments on her show reviews past 10 or 11 comments, but man oh man did they get riled up about Robert!  It went to over 80 comments the last time I checked.  The show would be really stupid to let go of Max Brown.

 

I  wandered over to Max Brown's Twitter just now and this tweet in particular, of angry fans saying how much Robert sucks, surprised me. I feel bad for the guy and it's interesting how many people can view the show so differently. Liam sure isn't the hill I'd want to die on, but whatever. I think most of the ire is coming from the fact that Liam has been around so much longer and that Max Brown probably appeals to older fans, while William Moseley has the teen/young adult market cornered. I think Moseley gives off a puppy dog demeanor, while Brown is more polished. It's a classic case of heir and the spare personalities. The writers got the dynamic exactly right.

Having said all that, Robert fans should brace themselves. I'm more convinced that ever that he's going down in flames.

Edited February 1, 2017 by EarlGreyTea

[catrice2]

Wow, I am sad to see that he is getting that kind of hate. I mean it is a fictional character.  I personally think the character has elevated the show, however, I will admit I didn't see most of the other seasons. 

I just wish Max Brown could find a show that can figure out how to use him. 

[phoenics]

Wow - it's like watching a bunch of teenagers melt down all at once.  Sheesh what a dumpster fire - Max Brown deserves better.  The hatred Robert is getting is really out of control.  It's a shame too - if he'd started the show, he'd probably be really beloved by fans.  He's got the royal persona down pat - better than anyone on the show imo.  Even Hurley.

[kat165]

phoenics, Mosely really is outclassed in the acting dept by Max Brown which makes Liam's actions even worse. And yeah, that is stupid. Liam HAD come a long way (only to distroy, since Robt's return, everything he worked towards) but in comparison to Robt there is no way he's ready to be king. He probably would have been a better King that Cyrus, but not Robt.

Liam should have just been upfront with Robt from the beginning. Ok maybe not immediately. The guy did just return from the dead and having to deal with his father being dead and his idiot uncle now being King, but pretty shortly afterwards Liam should have just told him how he felt rather than acting out in all sorts of childish ways. I don't know how he could have handled the Kate situation better with Robt because Liam being upfront with him would have outed Kate. And/or Kate might have told Robt what happened between her and Liam. But I guess then there would be no story??

I don't think Robt actually rolled over. I think he handled as diplomatically as he could have, non-confrontational which also goes towards him being a better leader. He kept his emotions in check and just tried to deal with the situation. It may have been manipulative to some degree but it was also smart.

Queenie is just pissed that Robt threw the ball in her court, so she could be seen as the bad guy, another clever way of Robt defusing Liam. Which also shows how childish Liam is, letting the decision go to mommy.

Liam has been ruined this season, not that he was ever all that to begin with.  

I'm not sure that Liam truly cares about either Kate or Willow. He just wants what Robt has or what he thinks Robt has and is completely missing the point. That Robt can handle what he has and Liam can't.

I'd like it better if Willow managed the situation without deviousness and employed the same sort of smarts that Robt has been displaying. But I think she truly cares for Liam and isn't about to give up on him to pursue Robt. Her speaking with Robt could still be her working on behalf on Liam in some way.

I'm not sure what Robt wants either. Maybe he's just playing with possibilities. His wants/needs/desires don't really seem to be clear as yet. I think he's just playing it the best he can with no real attachment to either result. Or in attempt to discover what he really wants. If he sets this up right he can drop out of the King race without ever seeming to give up/quit/lose.

"And that it may not be that he wanted to put an end to Liam's foolishness, but that he also wanted an out for himself.." I think he's doing both. I don't think he's sure about that one either.

Yeah, Am. real estate guy is boring and bland. Which is why I also don't find him attractive either. He has no presence. Whereas at the chamberlain has some spark. I wish he would have stalked over and kissed her but that's a more American way of handling the situation. He's still got some British reserve.

Yeah, I mostly forget the reason downed plane guy gave Jasper last season or season before for shooting down Robt. I don't know if he was paid by Ted or Domino or both. Or some other faction. Like Cyrus. Jasper was just using that prior knowledge to buy off the reporter, but I'm still not getting what plane guy gets out of this. He's gonna end up in prison or court. He's no innocent buystander. He also told Jasper about Sebastian, I think, to dig at him. He might have told him more but I don't think we were made privy to that.

I hope we get a 4th season. What the hell else does E have to show besides endless Kardashians and other stupid relatity shows.

catrice, remind me again, who is Rosie?

It's really hard to believe that they're making us root for Liam. He comes off like such a whiny baby. They're doing nothing to make us want to root for him. Robt is a much stronger character. Liam has no edge. No amount of moping or montages will give him that.

I like Helena and Lord C too. Both strong characters. Liam and Am. real estate guy are too weak/wimpy.

Robt has energized the show.

phoenics, I hadn't even considered Robt being Allistair's son. That would suck! Plus I liked King Simon and would be disappointed that Liam (aside from Lenny) is his only true spawn. Simon was awesome.

Liam doesn't really seem like he's royalty, I agree. He does come off as a spoiled, entitled brat from a wealthy family though.

There's still the privy council who have been charged with deciding. Will Cyrus's bribery pay off? How is that cowardly guy he bribed gonna convince the others to let Cyrus keep the throne? He's useless and disgrace.

That's a shame about the hate Max Brown is getting. I think it comes down to a less mature viewing audience vs the adults. The Liam fans are probably younger (not necessarily in terms of age, but in maturity) as they tend to have more time to whip up a furor than the more mature crowd who can't be bothered with such fan shennigans.

[peachmangosteen]

12 hours ago, phoenics said:

And is it just me, or is Prince Robert getting more and more fine each week?

Not just you! I didn't find Robert attractive at all when he went clean shaven, but he gets slowly more attractive to me each week. 

I never had a problem with Liam. I mean I never cared that much about him, but I loved his relationship with his family and I thought William Moseley was adorable. But Robert/Max Brown has really highlighted how bad William Moseley is when given anything more to play than 'cute puppy dog.'

[waving feather]

Nothing happened this episode again. It appears the writers just don't give a crap about plot anymore. This whole season is basically all filler. If it weren't for the introduction of Robert, I would have tuned out 3 episodes in. And honestly, if they take down Robert or got rid of him or kill him off, I wouldn't be back for next season if there is one.

More and more they seem to be hinting something shady about Robert's legitimacy to the crown. Robert was keeping secret about the last thing Simon said to him and he did not open the Christmas present that he said wasn't for him. My wild guess would be that it was for him but he didn't want to share it with the rest. Still, he is the most likable character on the show right now. Partly due to the actor's portrayal and also how his character is written. I can't believe Liam fan girls are sending him hate on Twitter. I hope the writers don't take it as a sign that nobody likes Robert.

I've known all along that William M. can't really act (he delivers all his lines with the same tone) but this season when they gave his character more to do besides sweet earnestness, it really highlights his flaws. 

Goodness, now they have Willow making moon eyes at Liam. What a waste of chemistry between Willow and Robert.

Robert did a smart thing by deferring to his mother, the Queen, about the Liam situation. He knows Liam is never going to stop seeing him as a threat if it came from him. I mean, isn't that what we do at work as well? When we can't resolve the situation at our level, we escalate to the next level with higher authority? It is nothing devious.

Till now, it is sad that no one (including his mother) had bothered to genuinely ask Robert how he is after his plane was shot down and he was left for dead on an island. 

Edited February 1, 2017 by waving feather

[njbchlover]

I was wondering about this, and maybe someone knows the answer.

If, it turns out that Robert is really NOT Simon's (which would be a stupid plotline, imo), the crown would go to the next legitimate child of Simon's, correct?  Since Liam and Eleanor are twins, if Eleanor was the first born of the twins, would she then become Queen?  

ETA:  I think it would be interesting if Liam got an urgent message from Ophelia that she needed him, and he went off for a looong while to help her!   :-)  Liam bores me.

Edited February 2, 2017 by njbchlover

[Athena5217]

Robert is a jerk, and Liam is a brat. #QueenEleanor

Edited February 2, 2017 by Athena5217

[peachmangosteen]

13 hours ago, njbchlover said:

If, it turns out that Robert is really NOT Simon's (which would be a stupid plotline, imo), the crown would go to the next legitimate child of Simon's, correct?  Since Liam and Eleanor are twins, if Eleanor was the first born of the twins, would she then become Queen?  

I think so because I remember in an earlier season, maybe season 1, Helena said something about what if Eleanor had been born just a few minutes earlier or something.