S04.E19: On the Eve

[Granny58]

21 minutes ago, LennieBriscoe said:

There really is nothing to like about the Vikings, is there? Handsomeness or cleverness  doesn't excuse their unbridled lust for conquest and violence, does it?

The human roasting spit did it for me. 

Yes, the English troops seem trapped as Custer's men militarily, but maybe Aethulwulf has one great idea left (although Ivar's chess moves re: the ships were genius). 

you're right.  Last week I said to my husband "what a disgusting culture."  This week I repeated myself.  We love Ragnar, but take him out of it and other things start to stand out.  

[pasdetrois]

Lagertha dropped the mic.

Last week, Aelle's crazy battle helmet reminded me of this: http://www.halloweenexpress.com/yellow-rubber-wig-p-3006.html

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Is Everybody Fighting About Something On Vikings?

Is Ivar maybe not total garbage? And is even a stupid Viking a better warrior than the guys from Essex? Liane Bonin Starr has questions.

[Son of the Norse]

I personally would not want to roast anyone or blood eagle anyone; but the thought of the vikings doing so does not make me think of them as a "disgusting culture".

Man (meaning men and woman) in all cultures have done horrible things; from current be-headings by terrorists, to the child predators that live in YOUR own neighborhood, to wife beaters, to serial killers, to the moron pieces of S&!t that gun down little children in an elementary school.  When I think of all the horrific things Man has done over the centuries, a little blood eagleing doesn't seem all that bad......

[Stratego]

1 hour ago, Son of the Norse said:

I personally would not want to roast anyone or blood eagle anyone; but the thought of the vikings doing so does not make me think of them as a "disgusting culture".

Man (meaning men and woman) in all cultures have done horrible things; from current be-headings by terrorists, to the child predators that live in YOUR own neighborhood, to wife beaters, to serial killers, to the moron pieces of S&!t that gun down little children in an elementary school.  When I think of all the horrific things Man has done over the centuries, a little blood eagleing doesn't seem all that bad......

...so waterboarding isn't so bad?...

[Son of the Norse]

I could of added that to my list too, but I cannot think of every unspeakable thing going on in the world today! ;)

[LennieBriscoe]

There really is nothing to like about the Vikings, is there? Handsomeness or cleverness  doesn't excuse their unbridled lust for conquest and violence, does it?

The human roasting spit did it for me. 

Yes, the English troops seem trapped as Custer's men militarily, but maybe Aethulstan has one great idea left (although Ivar's chess moves re: the ships were genius). 

[MaggieG]

Ugh, I was really hoping stupid Astrid would bite the bullet this week.

[whoknowswho]

On 1/28/2017 at 6:13 PM, magdalene said:

They edit every episode heavily for the American broadcast - for example they edited out Bjorns good bye to his children with Torvi which made him look like a callous jerk.  I think the only way you can (legally) see the unedited version is to buy the blue ray dvds or live in Europe.

Well that explains a few things!  I'm in Canada, but the feed we get is probably from the US, we've had no kindness from Ecbert to Aethelwulf, nor have I ever seen any kind of niceness from Bjorn to his kids--so it must be the edited edition. Which is kind of funny because Vikings is an Irish/Canadian film production...

Editing out those seemingly small details takes a lot away from the characters, and the storyline. 

[green]

It looks like I was wrong about ...

Spoiler

Torvi being dead.  According to a Hirst interview linked on the media thread about the season finale and Helga but pertaining to this episode too:

Hirst:  ... It’s often hard to deal with the deaths of major characters anyway. It was almost traumatic to deal with Ragnar’s death. But yeah, there’s an added element if it’s my own daughters. So one survives and one dies, but I have to be as objective as I can be. That was the end of a storyline where I’d taken that character as far as I could take her. As a father, writer and a producer, I had to make the right decision.

Well Helga is most definitely dead so Hirst seems to confirm that Torvi is still alive.  I don't know if this is technically a spoiler or not but stashed it in the spoilers tags just to be cautious.

Edited February 2, 2017 by green

[Stratego]

5 hours ago, green said:

It looks like I was wrong about ...

  Hide contents

Torvi being dead.  According to a Hirst interview linked on the media thread about the season finale and Helga but pertaining to this episode too:

Hirst:  ... It’s often hard to deal with the deaths of major characters anyway. It was almost traumatic to deal with Ragnar’s death. But yeah, there’s an added element if it’s my own daughters. So one survives and one dies, but I have to be as objective as I can be. That was the end of a storyline where I’d taken that character as far as I could take her. As a father, writer and a producer, I had to make the right decision.

Well Helga is most definitely dead so Hirst seems to confirm that Torvi is still alive.  I don't know if this is technically a spoiler or not but stashed it in the spoilers tags just to be cautious.

The previews for Season 5 confirmed it!

[ennui]

On 1/25/2017 at 10:09 PM, benteen said:

This was a strong episode for Aethelwulf and I give the actor and Hirst credit for the work they’ve done on the character this season.  He even got a funny moment after the Bishop died.

"Damn you! And, uh, rest in peace." Made me laugh!

I caught up on this episode last night, watching this and the finale together. 

Just remember, when you're planning to attack a village, be sure to stop off at Home Depot for some 1" x 8"s to cross the ditches.

On 1/29/2017 at 2:31 PM, magdalene said:

I notice the History Channel never cuts the sadistic scenes of torture and violence,

Last night, I was thinking that once upon a time, The A-Team was the most violent show on television. My, how things change.

[green]

10 hours ago, ennui said:

"Damn you! And, uh, rest in peace." Made me laugh!

I caught up on this episode last night, watching this and the finale together. 

Just remember, when you're planning to attack a village, be sure to stop off at Home Depot for some 1" x 8"s to cross the ditches.

Last night, I was thinking that once upon a time, The A-Team was the most violent show on television. My, how things change.

Those planks really looked like they were fresh out of the 21st century for sure.  I think that was a boo-boo since the walls around the city were all looking hand-hewed etc.  But the crossing the ditch planks I froze the screen at that point and they were totally pristine and processed in a modern lumber yard.  All were exactly the same length and width and smooth as silk and perfect 90 degree angles and the whole bit.  One of the few prop mistakes I've ever seen on the show.

Edited February 3, 2017 by green

[pixieil]

Vikings,even creepy ones like the Bastard, are tough nuts to crack. You won't get info from them with a"pretty please with cream and sugar on top", and Lagertha doesn't know if time is a critical factor in finding out who paid this guy to attack Kattegat. WE know who, so we know she has time to use less vicious methods, but Lagertha doesn't know that. It seems logical that due to the possible need for haste the most effective method (which maybe DIDN'T hold out the promise of Valhalla) needed to be used. I didn't get the impression that Lagertha enjoyed using that method, but it WAS effective. Its not as brutal as blood-eagling( and Ragnar and sons seemed to actually enjoy that) and Lagertha didn't feel the need to kill him after she got the info. And yes I DO also understand that she knows Harold & Co will do it for her.

[Ohwell]

Yeah, I didn't get all the pearl-clutching about the rotisserie torture.  Lagertha was just doing what needed to be done to get information ASAP.   Her only concern was protecting her people. 

[SingleMaltBlonde]

On 1/30/2017 at 10:44 PM, LennieBriscoe said:

There really is nothing to like about the Vikings, is there? Handsomeness or cleverness  doesn't excuse their unbridled lust for conquest and violence, does it?

The human roasting spit did it for me. 

Yes, the English troops seem trapped as Custer's men militarily, but maybe Aethulstan has one great idea left (although Ivar's chess moves re: the ships were genius). 

History is pretty much one huge bell we can't unring....looking at historical event thru our current moral view is easy and pretty silly.  As a liberal white American I have had to come to terms with our treatment of our Native Americans, slavery (and the Vikings never wrote that all men are created equal), the internment of the Japanese and so on...

As the great scholar Sam Seaborn said, "Cause it’s next. ‘Cause we came out of the cave, and we looked over the hill and we saw fire; and we crossed the ocean and we pioneered the west, and we took to the sky. The history of man is hung on a timeline of exploration and this is what’s next."

Like them or not the Vikings looking for what's next moved us in the right direction.

[Casually Observant]

On 1/26/2017 at 9:08 PM, ChromaKelly said:

Ivar is still disturbingly hot. What's wrong with me? I'm still Team Viking, even without Ragnar. Sigurd is growing on me for some reason.

Yes, I agree about Ivar. There is nothing wrong with you at all for feeling Ivar's hotness.  What I think we fully-functioning hetero females are finding attractive with him is his extreme masculine cockiness and aggressive alpha-male behavior. The servant girl told his brothers that he was 'stronger than any other man', and we saw how when he and Ragnar went to Wessex, he single-handedly slaughtered all of the sleeping boat mates without fear or trouble.

Now, he sits up with excellent posture in his custom chariot wearing that warrior's helmut and holding the reins to a couple of stallions looking like a bad-ass, while flashing his beautiful straight white teeth, ultra blue eyes, and tossing his thick hair that's been cut with a cool side fade.

What's not to like??

On 1/28/2017 at 4:17 PM, Stratego said:

I interpret the scene that Aethelwulf believes he is being lied to--hence how he walked away from King Eckbert and said nothing.

Or, that Aethelwulf is overcome with emotion from the unexpected and deeply felt words that he has longed to hear from his father. His push off and immediate turn away is to cover up the hot tears that are falling from his eyes.

[hincandenza]

On 1/25/2017 at 7:18 PM, magdalene said:

You know. I am actually rooting for Aethelwulf over the Vikings right now - Hirst has really humanized Aethelwulf.

Just picking the first such comment I came across while reading this episode thread, since a lot of us agree that Aethelwulf is in comparison to the rest of the Wessex crew- and most of the Vikings, as well- practically a prince among men.  Still, the humanization of Aethelwulf, like some of the comments I quoted below, hint at what I find the most compelling about this show.  It humanizes and connects, but doesn't (mostly) overly glorify or pick sides.  Compare to say GoT, where even with the complex characters there's clearly a "good" side for which we're rooting.  We can see the humanity in Ecbert, Aethelwulf, even Judith, while also seeing how even as products of their times they fall short on most moral scales, just as we can marvel at how people like Rollo and Bjorn have changed and grown- even as we also remember the countless violent atrocities they've committed against the innocent and defenseless.

It's so odd that one of the best shows on TV is a History channel drama, but I think it succeeds because this show has some of that old school History channel documentary flavor still in it.  In a sense we are given that 10,000 foot "Krishna" view of war and civilization and exploration, and despite it all can empathize with whomever is on the screen at the moment.  Sort of a 9th century "The Wire", I guess. :)  We can watch the incredibly well-staged battles with a sort of clinical detachment, viewing from the safety of our couches and pondering these people, in this time period, without being too distracted by "picking sides" and demanding that history tailor itself to our spoiled whims as viewers.  Rise and fall, death and glory, intimate lives and world-changing politics... all of it at the same time unreal yet very real, in that what we're seeing is a reasonably accurate presentation of the kinds of lives we humans have lived for so much of our existence.  

 

On 1/28/2017 at 2:13 PM, magdalene said:

They edit every episode heavily for the American broadcast - for example they edited out Bjorns good bye to his children with Torvi which made him look like a callous jerk.  I think the only way you can (legally) see the unedited version is to buy the blue ray dvds or live in Europe.

Thanks for mentioning that; I've heard similar things, so maybe I need to get this show on bluray.  I've never rewatched this show, and it deserves a rewatch at some point- but in the original versions, not the sanitized and commercial-shortened US edits.

 

 

On 1/30/2017 at 5:00 AM, Granny58 said:

you're right.  Last week I said to my husband "what a disgusting culture."  This week I repeated myself.  We love Ragnar, but take him out of it and other things start to stand out.  

 

On 1/30/2017 at 1:16 PM, Son of the Norse said:

I personally would not want to roast anyone or blood eagle anyone; but the thought of the vikings doing so does not make me think of them as a "disgusting culture".

Man (meaning men and woman) in all cultures have done horrible things; from current be-headings by terrorists, to the child predators that live in YOUR own neighborhood, to wife beaters, to serial killers, to the moron pieces of S&!t that gun down little children in an elementary school.  When I think of all the horrific things Man has done over the centuries, a little blood eagleing doesn't seem all that bad......

 

On 2/4/2017 at 5:52 PM, SingleMaltBlonde said:

History is pretty much one huge bell we can't unring....looking at historical event thru our current moral view is easy and pretty silly.  As a liberal white American I have had to come to terms with our treatment of our Native Americans, slavery (and the Vikings never wrote that all men are created equal), the internment of the Japanese and so on...

As the great scholar Sam Seaborn said, "Cause it’s next. ‘Cause we came out of the cave, and we looked over the hill and we saw fire; and we crossed the ocean and we pioneered the west, and we took to the sky. The history of man is hung on a timeline of exploration and this is what’s next."

Like them or not the Vikings looking for what's next moved us in the right direction.

 

The show-specific thoughts on these ideas I mentioned above.  Yes, these ancient cultures are "ugly"- but so have been nearly all of them, to varying degrees.  I can drive myself to despair pondering the incomprehensible suffering that human beings have endured over the millenia, with violence and cruelty doled out far beyond what we even see on our TV screens.  Yet there is hope, in that our society, moral codes, government, and standards of behavior have evolved and developed just like any other technology that defines us as human.  We haven't yet abandoned the evolutionary legacy of our bestial nature, but we are getting better, tiny bit by tiny bit- and shows like this remind us of how far we've come, while letting us safely explore this aspect of ourselves and try to remember in our collective cultural memory why we really don't want to head backwards.

I'd also like to add this poem a friend shared on Facebook today, as I think it kind of sums up both the tragedy of the past- and present- and the glimmer of hope that our future might not have to be so brutal, bloody, and pointlessly cruel.  I read it just a few minutes before heading here after finishing this episode, so I thought it seemed an appropriate coincidence.

 

"Good Bones" by Maggie Smith

 

Life is short, though I keep this from my children.
Life is short, and I’ve shortened mine
in a thousand delicious, ill-advised ways,
a thousand deliciously ill-advised ways
I’ll keep from my children. The world is at least
fifty percent terrible, and that’s a conservative
estimate, though I keep this from my children.
For every bird there is a stone thrown at a bird.
For every loved child, a child broken, bagged,
sunk in a lake. Life is short and the world
is at least half terrible, and for every kind
stranger, there is one who would break you,
though I keep this from my children. I am trying
to sell them the world. Any decent realtor,
walking you through a real shithole, chirps on
about good bones: This place could be beautiful,
right? You could make this place beautiful.

[LennieBriscoe]

SingleMaltBlonde, I don't remember excusing the United States government (or Columbus and his ilk,  or indigenous natives for sundry depredations.  Nor the Aztecs or the Spanish Inquisitors or the Khmer Rouge, Nazis,  Stalinists, etc., etc.). 

But I disagree that current societies cannot judge or critique the past. 

When men (or women) are fully aware that they are committing torture and worse,  the concept of "it was a different time" is put paid.