Rhaegar and Lyanna: So Many Questions

[roguetamlin]

So much of the plot of GoT revolves around two people that are barely on the show. There's a huge divide between what people who have read the books and those who haven't on the topic and a lot is left to guesswork. So using everything but season 7 spoilers (be good), let's try to find some answer. 

My question is: what was Rhaegar's plan? It could be assumed that the Tourney of Harranhall was all a setup to potentially overthrow The Mad King. Then Rhaegar gives Lyanna the wreath and a year later kidnaps her. Or they elope. Something.

At the end of Robert's Rebellion, young Ned and his mates show up at the Tower of Joy and find Lyanna and newborn Jon Snow protected by Rhaegar (who is dead now)'s best soldiers and his bestfriend. So, back up a minute. What was Rhaegar planning to do with Lyanna if he won and got control of the crown? The loyalty of the Martells was critical to his success, did he think that he would just show up with his new family and they'd be ok with the cuckolding of their sister. 

[Meredith Quill]

I'm unclear on whether you want book talk or not, so I added a book talk tag to be on the safe side. If you don't want book talk in here let me know and I'll change the tag.

[Jazzy24]

I like Rhaegar from the little we get of him. 

But I don't agree with all his choices. My biggest issue with him is how he treated Elia and leaving his wife and children at the Red Keep. Kidnapping Lyanna and disappearing for almost a year does not speak well of him and I think he deserves criticism for his life choices. I don't deny that he played a part in Robert's Rebellion but I don't put most of the blame on him that goes to Aerys and Jon Arryn. I wish we had more information about him he's one of the most mysterious characters in the books. 

[YaddaYadda]

I like Rhaegar as well. He's a really intriguing character who did some seriously lame things to his wife and the kingdom. But everyone who isn't Robert remembers him fondly. 

I sort of think that Elia knew what he was up to and may have gone as far as to suggest that he goes to Dorne. I can't imagine that the Martells had no idea what was going on under their noses. 

And what it is that would have made Lyanna go with him, knowing how she felt about Robert and her opinion that he would never keep to one bed?

There are just so many questions. I kind of feel that in the end, Rhaegar's time with Lyanna might have been as happy as he was going to get and he forgot himself and his duties and that he created a mess. 

I know, I'm completely excusing him and justifying him when there's really nothing justifying his behavior with his wife or Lyanna, or the position he put some people in. "Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna and thousands died for it."

[roguetamlin]

All that makes me wonder if Rhaegar is an intentional skewering of the Prince Charming/True Love trope. 

[Ambrosefolly]

On 1/13/2017 at 9:02 AM, YaddaYadda said:

I like Rhaegar as well. He's a really intriguing character who did some seriously lame things to his wife and the kingdom. But everyone who isn't Robert remembers him fondly. 

I sort of think that Elia knew what he was up to and may have gone as far as to suggest that he goes to Dorne. I can't imagine that the Martells had no idea what was going on under their noses. 

And what it is that would have made Lyanna go with him, knowing how she felt about Robert and her opinion that he would never keep to one bed?

There are just so many questions. I kind of feel that in the end, Rhaegar's time with Lyanna might have been as happy as he was going to get and he forgot himself and his duties and that he created a mess. 

I know, I'm completely excusing him and justifying him when there's really nothing justifying his behavior with his wife or Lyanna, or the position he put some people in. "Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna and thousands died for it."

 

 

I hated Rhaegar and of all the people that ended up dying, he was the one person that deserved it. Selfish prick through and through, and shows the  danger of raising a child as the most important thing ever, especially if he is a prince. If they really want screw with the troupe, have it discovered (now thanks to Bran's super helpful greenseeing abilities) that Rhaegar eventually started treating Lyanna as his broodmare, especially when he got what he wanted from her: Jon Snow. I wouldn't mind the similar track that Sansa had with Joffrey.

[YaddaYadda]

I decided long ago to take the wait and see approach with Lyanna, Rhaegar, whatever happened that spun into Brandon rushing to King's Landing and shit hitting the fan. In AGOT, everyone thought that the Lannisters were behind Jon Arryn's death because of what happened with Bran and they had nothing to do with that, until we started getting those two characters' POVs. Jaime was the Kingslayer, someone who had broken his vows and killed his king. Rhaegar could still turn out to be a total sociopath, or he could very well be the good guy everyone thinks he is.

I think one thing GRRM does well is show how easily a war can get started. Catelyn taking Tyrion as prisoner sparked a whole chain of events that most characters haven't even recovered from in ADWD. And she did that after she had been manipulated into thinking that Tyrion was behind the attempt on Bran's life because she trusted the wrong person and because she already had a bias towards the Lannisters. 

The War of the Five Kings and the way it started is a hell of a lot similar to the way Robert's Rebellion began. There's a connecting thread there and I'm pretty sure he has a pointy beard and a nasty scar on his torso. There is certainly a disconnect between the way everyone sees Rhaegar and what he's done, whether he just took off with Lyanna or kidnapped her for his 3rd head of the dragon. 

It will certainly be interesting to find out more when the books are finally out. I'm very much looking forward to it and hoping GRRM puts his ass and gear and gives us answers.  

Edited July 8, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[that one guy]

An interesting thing about the way this story is told/remembered by characters on the show is that nobody seems to imagine that Lyanna had any agency. It's perfectly obvious that Lyanna was the mysterious Knight of the Laughing Tree at the Tourney at Harrenhall. She was acknowledged as a great horseman and witnessed Howland Reed's abuse at the hands of the men the mystery knight bested at the tourney. The Mad King told Rhaegar to find and kill the mystery knight, but when he discovered it was Lyanna he persuaded her to stop rather than killing her, and crowned her Queen of Love and Beauty for her courage. That subtext is so clear, it isn't even really speculation, it's obvious to book readers. So they had a pre-existing relationship and it seems much more likely "they ran off together" as opposed to "Rhaegar kidnapped her." Although he's the crown prince, so there's always going to be the question of consent when he's sleeping with someone not his wife. How free is Lyanna to say no to the eldest son of the Mad King? 

However, since it seems to be her courage and moxie that attracted Rhaeger, I doubt he meant her any harm.  He seems to have been obsessed with prophecy, maybe the same one as Melisandre? Which is the origin of the "Dragon has three heads" thing (which he cryptically tells Dany in her vision at the house of the undying). If he believed he needed a third child to fulfill the prophecy, he may have sought out a new woman because Elia was considered to frail to bear a third child. Since his first two children were named after Aegon the Conquerer and one of his sisters, he was probably expecting a girl he would name Visenya after the other sister. At any rate, he seems to have been concerned with prophecy, the coming war, and the perceived need for another child, as opposed to leaving his wife because, in the words of Littlefinger, "he chose the wrong woman." Running off with Lyanna may have been a foolish and irresponsible act without actually being a selfish one. And from everything we've heard about the two of them, it's reasonable to think Lyanna preferred him to her arranged marriage with Robert. He was the crown prince, he was pretty, he could sing, he aided and abetted her stunt at Harrenhall . . . if he had an easy smile and a sense of humor, it's not hard to imagine a starstruck teenager running off with him to Dorne, is it?

The question is, were they married in secret? Jon a Rhaegar's bastard is one thing, and as the legitimate heir to the iron throne is another.

[Ambrosefolly]

4 hours ago, that one guy said:

An interesting thing about the way this story is told/remembered by characters on the show is that nobody seems to imagine that Lyanna had any agency. It's perfectly obvious that Lyanna was the mysterious Knight of the Laughing Tree at the Tourney at Harrenhall. She was acknowledged as a great horseman and witnessed Howland Reed's abuse at the hands of the men the mystery knight bested at the tourney. The Mad King told Rhaegar to find and kill the mystery knight, but when he discovered it was Lyanna he persuaded her to stop rather than killing her, and crowned her Queen of Love and Beauty for her courage. That subtext is so clear, it isn't even really speculation, it's obvious to book readers. So they had a pre-existing relationship and it seems much more likely "they ran off together" as opposed to "Rhaegar kidnapped her." Although he's the crown prince, so there's always going to be the question of consent when he's sleeping with someone not his wife. How free is Lyanna to say no to the eldest son of the Mad King? 

However, since it seems to be her courage and moxie that attracted Rhaeger, I doubt he meant her any harm.  He seems to have been obsessed with prophecy, maybe the same one as Melisandre? Which is the origin of the "Dragon has three heads" thing (which he cryptically tells Dany in her vision at the house of the undying). If he believed he needed a third child to fulfill the prophecy, he may have sought out a new woman because Elia was considered to frail to bear a third child. Since his first two children were named after Aegon the Conquerer and one of his sisters, he was probably expecting a girl he would name Visenya after the other sister. At any rate, he seems to have been concerned with prophecy, the coming war, and the perceived need for another child, as opposed to leaving his wife because, in the words of Littlefinger, "he chose the wrong woman." Running off with Lyanna may have been a foolish and irresponsible act without actually being a selfish one. And from everything we've heard about the two of them, it's reasonable to think Lyanna preferred him to her arranged marriage with Robert. He was the crown prince, he was pretty, he could sing, he aided and abetted her stunt at Harrenhall . . . if he had an easy smile and a sense of humor, it's not hard to imagine a starstruck teenager running off with him to Dorne, is it?

The question is, were they married in secret? Jon a Rhaegar's bastard is one thing, and as the legitimate heir to the iron throne is another.

 

I think they both sucked and for sure I think she willingly went with a married man, probably believing his poor wife was totally cool with the arrangement. If this was real, I really hope one of the reasons that little bitch died was from the guilt of letting thousands of people die because she "followed her heart", first causalities of her stupidity and selfishness being her brother and her father. Of course with impulsive, "strong" women that don't think one bit about the consequences of their actions, she forced a man in her life, in this instance Ned, to clean up her mess.   And Rhagear's actions were foolish, irresponsible and fucking selfish. If he wanted another child so badly, I am sure they were plenty of other, unmarried and unbetrothed maidens and not be the one that messed up the relations between two great houses, whether Lyanna wound up marrying Robert or ran off with someone else. At least that way, he wouldn't have put an entire country at war.

[Jazzy24]

2 hours ago, Ambrosefolly said:

I think they both sucked and for sure I think she willingly went with a married man, probably believing his poor wife was totally cool with the arrangement. If this was real, I really hope one of the reasons that little bitch died was from the guilt of letting thousands of people die because she "followed her heart", first causalities of her stupidity and selfishness being her brother and her father. Of course with impulsive, "strong" women that don't think one bit about the consequences of their actions, she forced a man in her life, in this instance Ned, to clean up her mess.   And Rhagear's actions were foolish, irresponsible and fucking selfish. If he wanted another child so badly, I am sure they were plenty of other, unmarried and unbetrothed maidens and not be the one that messed up the relations between two great houses, whether Lyanna wound up marrying Robert or ran off with someone else. At least that way, he wouldn't have put an entire country at war.

Thousands did not die because of Lyanna and Rhaegar. 

Dont get me wrong, I'm not defending Rhaegar or Lyanna's actions, cause they did make terrible mistakes. But all they did was light a flame, it was Aerys and Jon Arryn who threw gasoline on that flme and let it get out of control. 

Even Brandon Stark played a tiny role. Although it was a human reaction and anybody would have probably acted the way he did it was still stupid to go into Targaryen territory with twenty men at your back where a MAD king king ruled absolutely and threaten his son and heir. Thought Brandon's actions should not have resulted in his horrible cruel death. 

Also remember that nobody, not Rickard Stark(her father), or Robert Baratheon(her betrothed) raised their banners when Lyanna got kidnapped. It was Jon Arryn who officially started the war when he raised his banners to protect Ned and Robert. Many people are to blame for Robert's Rebellion not just Lyanna and Rhaegar. 

[Ambrosefolly]

1 minute ago, Jazzy24 said:

Thousands did not die because of Lyanna and Rhaegar. 

Dont get me wrong, I'm not defending Rhaegar or Lyanna's actions, cause they did make terrible mistakes. But all they did was light a flame, it was Aerys and Jon Arryn who threw gasoline on that flme and let it get out of control. 

Even Brandon Stark played a tiny role. Although it was a human reaction and anybody would have probably acted the way he did it was still stupid to go into Targaryen territory with twenty men at your back where a MAD king king ruled absolutely and threaten his son and heir. Thought Brandon's actions should not have resulted in his horrible cruel death. 

Also remember that nobody, not Rickard Stark(her father), or Robert Baratheon(her betrothed) raised their banners when Lyanna got kidnapped. It was Jon Arryn who officially started the war when he raised his banners to protect Ned and Robert. Many people are to blame for Robert's Rebellion not just Lyanna and Rhaegar. 

 

I have defended this position before and I'll do it again. If they lit the match then they are responsible and the weeks they spent away from everyone else was the true gasoline. Everyone else in a manner behaved expected: Brandon Stark went looking for her the moment he heard she had been taken. Aerys imprisoned someone threatening to kill his son, which is probably one of the few saner things he did near the end of his life. When a Warden of North and his first born son were brutally executed and the King called for two other High Lords,  Jon Arryn wasn't going to hand them over to be executed by the Aerys, which now Aerys showed he was capably of doing. Aerys was an extremely sick man that was getting worse by the day, a fact perfectly known by his son Rhagaer, but he let everyone else deal with the shit storm his actions triggered, and if he didn't realize that stealing away with a betrothed High Lord's daughter, then a low emotional IQ is the genetic defect he inherited. 

[YaddaYadda]

Jon Arryn loved Robert and Ned and Lysa called them his darling boys. So him not hesitating and calling his banners to protect them makes sense, especially when the man took on a fatherly role for however many years those two were with him. They clearly brought joy into his life when we see descriptions about how they filled the halls with laughter. 

I think Maester Aemon's speech to Jon in AGOT about honor and duty fleshes out a lot of the motivations for several characters, including Ned and Rhaegar and Jon Arryn and Stannis. 

[Oscirus]

I don't get what his endgame was. He was pissing off three of the seven major families meaning that he would've had to keep the other four in a time of civil unrest. He was a selfish little asshole who thankfully got owned by Robert and Lyanna came close to extinguishing her whole family line by being a hypocrite. But hey , romance! 

[YaddaYadda]

On 7/22/2017 at 1:45 AM, Oscirus said:

I don't get what his endgame was.

If he's about the prophecy and he's aware that the long night is coming, then maybe saving the kingdoms is his endgame? If a person knows that something horrible is going to happen, do they let it happen, or do they take the steps to prevent it/mitigate it? We saw Jon make the decision to let the Wildlings through the Wall because he knows what exists behind it and he understood the threat. And it was a pretty unpopular decision. People turned on him because of it. 

There just seem to be many moving parts to this prophecy and whatever version we are getting might be an incomplete one. Did he meet with other people that prophecy things like the Ghost of High Heart or even Maggy the Frog? He was in Lannisport for the tourney when he was seventeen, that was when Tywin offered Cersei as a bride and Aerys refused.  Cersei meets Maggy the Frog during that time. Maybe he went to see her too? Did he ever go to the Isle of Faces like Howland Reed did? 

If Rhaegar knew that the long night was coming, does he sit back and let it happen, or does he start preparing for it so that when it happens they are actually ready to fight?

It's a situation where a person can easily be stuck between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand, the truth shall set you free, on the other, His father was mentally ill, and if he had come out to his lords and been, so there's this prophecy...the odds might be that they might have looked upon him as someone who was also on the verge of losing his mind. They might have rebelled sooner than Robert's Rebellion, because why wouldn't they?  

Tyrion pocked fun at Jon with the whole grumpkins and snarks and when Alester Thorne went to King's Landing to tell everyone what happened, he got laughed out of the room and Tyrion who had been at the Wall shrugged it off. Words are wind. People tend to believe their eyes. 

Edited July 25, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[TarotQueen]

Someone posted something similar to this in the ep2 thread earlier today, how maybe R+L was neither a kidnap and rape nor just a story of two lovers w a great passion for one another, but a knowingly mystical partnership for each of them.  What if Lyanna had greenseer dreams in addition to Rhaegar's devotion to prophecy?  Even fully trained Bran has seen bits of the future that arent perfectly chronological ... who knows?  Lyanna might have seen her son in visions saving the freaking world on a dragon's back just before she met, voila, Rhaegar Targaryen of dragon riders r us heritage.  But without necessarily seeing the negatives thier union would bring about also, that would be pretty strong incentive to run off with him despite the seeming carelessness of it.  Even if she knew for certain about the coming of Roberts Rebellion, War of Five Kings etc due to thier elopement but then its still like eh, all that < Battle for Dawn ... it may be that she HAD TO BE Jon's mother and that she knew it.

Yaddayadda had already covered speculations on Rhaegar so I'll stick to just the ice side, but we already know fire and ice together have big mojo.  Maybe R & L saw thier roles as something like a sacrament on behalf of thier respective houses different types of magic.

[YaddaYadda]

@TarotQueen, I agree about Lyanna. Dreams play a very important role in the books. We know that the Targaryens have dragon dreams, the Starks have wolf dreams because of their warging abilities, and we know that Jon dreams of the crypts and those have nothing to do with warging, Bran and Rickon both dreamt of their Ned in the crypts right before they got the message that he had been murdered. 

Not to mention that Lyanna is a daughter of Winterfell and the north. Like Jon and his siblings, she likely grew up with Old Nan's stories about the long night and the Others and the Last Hero. If she had dreams, then it's possible she started making connections. 

The entire book series opens with Waymar Royce being killed by a Other, being raised as a wight and killing Will. Bloodraven has been beyond the Wall for 48 years, 7 years before Rhaegar's birth and what happened at Summerhall. Howland Reed is on the Isle of Faces before he meets Lyanna, there's a Sword of the Morning in this time period even though he's supposed to be dead (there was a Dayne at the Wall after Nymeria's conquest), and Ned decides that yes, Jon should go to the Wall and we never get the reasoning behind this at all. 

There's a lot of information. But if Rhaegar thought his whole life he was the Prince that was Promised, then the odds are very good he might have gathered as much information about the long night as he possibly could and that information might be kept somewhere.

Edited July 25, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[Oscirus]

14 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

If he's about the prophecy and he's aware that the long night is coming, then maybe saving the kingdoms is his endgame? If a person knows that something horrible is going to happen, do they let it happen, or do they take the steps to prevent it/mitigate it? We saw Jon make the decision to let the Wildlings through the Wall because he knows what exists behind it and he understood the threat. And it was a pretty unpopular decision. People turned on him because of it. 

There just seem to be many moving parts to this prophecy and whatever version we are getting might be an incomplete one. Did he meet with other people that prophecy things like the Ghost of High Heart or even Maggy the Frog? He was in Lannisport for the tourney when he was seventeen, that was when Tywin offered Cersei as a bride and Aerys refused.  Cersei meets Maggy the Frog during that time. Maybe he went to see her too? Did he ever go to the Isle of Faces like Howland Reed did? 

If Rhaegar knew that the long night was coming, does he sit back and let it happen, or does he start preparing for it so that when it happens they are actually ready to fight?

It's a situation where a person can easily be stuck between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand, the truth shall set you free, on the other, His father was mentally ill, and if he had come out to his lords and been, so there's this prophecy...the odds might be that they might have looked upon him as someone who was also on the verge of losing his mind. They might have rebelled sooner than Robert's Rebellion, because why wouldn't they?  

Tyrion pocked fun at Jon with the whole grumpkins and snarks and when Alester Thorne went to King's Landing to tell everyone what happened, he got laughed out of the room and Tyrion who had been at the Wall shrugged it off. Words are wind. People tend to believe their eyes. 

It seems to me that  if your country is on the verge of a civil war and your leadership is needed that you concentrate on that as opposed to listening to silly ass prophecies and setting off the civil war.

It's funny that this prophecy revolved around a pretty girl that he just met. I'm sure that had nothing to do with his reckless actions.

Hell, I'd bet much like Cersei and her prophecies, the long night coming was something caused by Rhaegar's dumb ass doing things he clearly wasn't supposed to.

 

7 hours ago, TarotQueen said:

What if Lyanna had greenseer dreams in addition to Rhaegar's devotion to prophecy?

Dreams that she never mentioned? You'd figure that by this point in the stories that George would've set that up  if that was the case. It seems more to me like she was stuck in a situation that she clearly didn't want to be in and Rhaegar offered her an escape so she took it, not thinking or caring about the consequences of her actions since she was "in love" at that point.

[YaddaYadda]

Five books later and we still have no clue what went down. I think it's a fun debate to be honest. But for sure, actions have consequences.

Maybe it's just me, but I think that Jon's story from the moment he goes beyond the Wall during the great ranging might be what gives us a better understanding of Rhaegar's own actions. Both stories end the same way. Rhaegar dies on the Trident for his actions and Jon is stabbed to death by members of the Night's Watch for his. 

[Hana Chan]

I think that it's very telling that neither of the women that Rhaegar fathered children on had direct Targaryen heritage. All of his children (including Jon presumably) would carry the Targaryen name and be in the direct line of succession to the Iron Throne, but none of them would be "pure" Targaryen. My thinking is that he saw enough of the madness in his family and recognized that all of the incestuous breeding (including his own) would eventually destroy the lineage. So he brought in some fresh blood to strengthen the line.

[glowbug]

Aerys is the one who chose Rhaegar's first wife. I don't think Rhaegar had a choice in the matter. Aerys had planned on marrying Rhaegar to his sister but Viserys turned out to be a boy and Dany came too late. Rhaegar's mother kept having miscarriages/stillbirths. 

[TarotQueen]

I have a bit of a theory about Rhaegar and Elia's union and magic ...

The Rhoynar were a people of water magic.  The Targaryens, fire magic.  So my suspicion is that while it was of course, a politically expedient marriage, that the magics of their respective heritages just cancelled each other out.  Basically that it was always gonna to be an ill fated union.

Now I know the first reaction a lot of people may have to this is that the story is a song of ice and fire of course, with the Starks being ice, and ice is just frozen water!  So Lyanna Stark wouldn't have been any better in that sense.

But when you go just a tiny bit deeper and really consider the Starks' magical heritage, there's no ice about it ... it's all tied to the land and the creatures.  In fact, the Starks power is not really in ice itself, it's in outlasting and defeating it (making winter, fall).

I don't know if we'll ever get enough future work out of GRRM to examine this any further than this posting right here, but it's one of those random ideas I've had about this world. 

This also isn't necessarily meant to excuse Rhaegar, because I know there is that firm Rhaegar is a jerk crowd out there, and I don't feel any need to push the argument on and on.  For me, magic in this world IS mitigation, but everyone has their own tastes.    

 

[YaddaYadda]

I think the Rhoynar blood is important because they have their own long night story and how it ends and I don't think it's much of a coincidence that GRRM introduced Garin and the Orphans of the Greenblood in AFFC (I decided that his mother is the elusive Wylla) and continued that with Yandry and Ysilla. 

Rhaegar's children would have had Rhoynar blood regardless of who the mother is because he has it. There are two Houses that are direct descent from Nymeria, and that's the Martells and the Daynes and both married the Targs. 

I find the bloodlines kind of messed up. Everyone is related to everyone.

[TarotQueen]

I've always read a lot of speculation that Littlefinger was already starting trouble wrt Rhaegar and Lyanna's disappearance, but someone in the 7/4 episode thread just pointed out why that was probably unlikely for quite a few reasons.  Then speculation moved on to Varys and Pycelle in turn, somehow setting Rhaegar up to fail with Lyanna's peeps.

But isn't it more likely that if sabotage was occurring that it happened on the Northern side?  The Maester when Rickon was LoWF was supposed to have been the one engineering the "Southron Ambitions" right?  So let's say, if Rhaegar somehow had the first marriage resolved by whatever means, and was making honorable overtures to Rickon about his daughter via raven, it would have been in that Maester (Wally?  I know that's not it, but don't recall and am not looking up) interest to try to start some shit by withholding ravens on on that side right?  And not that Rickon would have necessarily accepted an annulment/divorce/polygamy/(?).  But he damn well would have known something, more than the cluster fuck that ended up going down. 

Anyway, a few other things have struck me fairly recently ....  Why on earth does it seem like every single member of the Stark family except Benjen (the Stark staying at WF) was traveling separately to Riverrun for Brandon and Catelyn's wedding?  Or correct me if I am remembering wrong, but Lyanna got abducted/left to elope from somewhere around Harrenhal, Brandon got news of this later either en route or immediately on arriving to Riverrun, and then word still had to be sent to Rickon to tell him what Brandon did, so he wasn't with him?  Just seems weird why the single teenage daughter would have been sent ahead without her male relatives to begin with, unless someone wanted that to happen that way for a hidden motive.  Ned lived in a different place, so I can get him not being with any of them, but the rest doesn't add up.

Finally, is it weird to wonder why Elia ended up in KL for the sack in the first place?  Yes, Aerys held her hostage there, but afaik (and the wiki oiaf backs me up on this) Rhaegar had left her on Dragonstone ... why would she had left?  Or who compelled her to leave at what point int he story? 

As we all know, GRRM may never answer any questions.  But I could just have a bad memory too, so any input on these matters is appreciated. 

[YaddaYadda]

18 minutes ago, TarotQueen said:

Anyway, a few other things have struck me fairly recently ....  Why on earth does it seem like every single member of the Stark family except Benjen (the Stark staying at WF) was traveling separately to Riverrun for Brandon and Catelyn's wedding?  Or correct me if I am remembering wrong, but Lyanna got abducted/left to elope from somewhere around Harrenhal, Brandon got news of this later either en route or immediately on arriving to Riverrun, and then word still had to be sent to Rickon to tell him what Brandon did, so he wasn't with him?  Just seems weird why the single teenage daughter would have been sent ahead without her male relatives to begin with, unless someone wanted that to happen that way for a hidden motive.  Ned lived in a different place, so I can get him not being with any of them, but the rest doesn't add up.

So Benjen would have been the Stark in Winterfell for Brandon's wedding. And then I'm assuming Brandon would have gone to Winterfell with Catelyn and Benjen would have gone south to Lyanna's wedding.

Ned was in the Eyrie where he was fostered and Brandon was heading to Riverrun with a Mallister, a Royce, and Jon Arryn's heir, along with Ethan Glover. According to Catelyn, Brandon was on his way to Riverrun when he heard about Lyanna but then things become murky because Brandon talks to Catelyn about them being married when he returned from KL which implies that he met Catelyn somewhere or that she might even have been with him when he found out. Hoster Tully got pissed at Brandon's actions and called him a gallant fool. 

It's possible that Rickard sent Lyanna ahead of him or that she wasn't even traveling from Winterfell. If she was planning to run, an escort wouldn't have stopped her. 

It's the Brandon parts that are tangled though. I doubt he found anything out by raven since he was on the road. Someone saw something and more than likely spun it. 

35 minutes ago, TarotQueen said:

But isn't it more likely that if sabotage was occurring that it happened on the Northern side?  The Maester when Rickon was LoWF was supposed to have been the one engineering the "Southron Ambitions" right?  So let's say, if Rhaegar somehow had the first marriage resolved by whatever means, and was making honorable overtures to Rickon about his daughter via raven, it would have been in that Maester (Wally?  I know that's not it, but don't recall and am not looking up) interest to try to start some shit by withholding ravens on on that side right?  And not that Rickon would have necessarily accepted an annulment/divorce/polygamy/(?).  But he damn well would have known something, more than the cluster fuck that ended up going down. 

Maester Walys is a bit of a wildcard. A lot of the accusations come from Barbrey's resentment of losing Brandon to Catelyn and her father's aspirations going to dust when Ned is married off to Catelyn after Brandon's death. So I don't know, and we don't know if he died, or just left, but I always found it interesting that the bastard son of a Hightower lady was gone from the north and Lynesse Hightower got married off to Jorah even though the match makes zero sense.

One of the things that I sort of go back to is that Rickard didn't seem to be in a rush to get to KL? Like he went because he was summoned there. One thing I've always wondered about is whether him marrying off his children to southron Houses was really for his ambitions or to ensure that he'd have swords if things that exist north of the Wall came back. With marriage, he commits these Houses to fighting alongside his House. 

46 minutes ago, TarotQueen said:

Finally, is it weird to wonder why Elia ended up in KL for the sack in the first place?  Yes, Aerys held her hostage there, but afaik (and the wiki oiaf backs me up on this) Rhaegar had left her on Dragonstone ... why would she had left?  Or who compelled her to leave at what point int he story? 

Aerys probably summoned her at the start of the war or after the Battle of the Bells when he realized this was not going to blow over. It's not like she can ignore those summons. If he was so paranoid over what Dorne was going to do, then having Elia and her kids there kept Dorne in line. He goes as far as to think that the whole reason Rhaegar lost on the Trident was because Lewyn Martell and the Dornish troops turned on him.

[spottedreptile]

On 26/07/2017 at 9:06 AM, YaddaYadda said:

Ned decides that yes, Jon should go to the Wall and we never get the reasoning behind this at all. 

I've always thought that Benjen suggested it to Ned as a way for Jon to have some sort of useful future away from Winterfell where he would always chafe at his bastardry and see himself as having no status. Ned could see it as a solution to the 'problem of Jon' (a la Cat) and maybe have talked it over with Jon, who became very keen as we know. He could picture Jon being at the Wall, being overseen by his brother, and safe from more intrigue and gossip about his parenthood. Also, it probably would have got Cat off his back, so Ned, being like most men when faced with trouble from his wife, opted for the least problematic path. Martin doesn't spell it out but it's a reasonable theory. 

[screamin]

Re: Elia, from the episode 4 thread:          

32 MINUTES AGO, YADDAYADDA SAID:

I think we'll find out more about her. Doran is still alive and Hotah is around and there's Ulmer the Outlaw who might have a little bit more to say than what's he's been allowed to. Cersei and Jon Connington don't count because the put downs are from jealousy and Barristan liked her, but he called her a kitchen drab which was just mean, so his opinion on her doesn't count either. 

I know, right? She was bright, sweet, reportedly had a wicked wit (not one sample of which came down to us, alas) and despite physical frailty attacked the Mountain like a tigress. If only there were one character or flashback that does her justice without a generous helping of insults for not being the hottest woman who ever hotted in Westeros.

[screamin]

2 hours ago, TarotQueen said:

Finally, is it weird to wonder why Elia ended up in KL for the sack in the first place?  Yes, Aerys held her hostage there, but afaik (and the wiki oiaf backs me up on this) Rhaegar had left her on Dragonstone ... why would she had left?  Or who compelled her to leave at what point int he story? 

As we all know, GRRM may never answer any questions.  But I could just have a bad memory too, so any input on these matters is appreciated. 

By the time Rhaegar came back from his idyll with Lyanna, she was at the Red Keep with Aerys; Jaime later has a nightmare where Rhaegar comes to him and accuses him: "I left my wife and children in your hands."

Quite possibly Aerys summoned her to court as soon as contact with Rhaegar was lost. Aerys was always afraid that Rhaegar was plotting against him; when he disappeared Aerys probably thought he was conspiring somewhere, and brought Elia in to keep her under control as a possible accomplice, and her children as leverage.

[screamin]

On 7/25/2017 at 11:40 AM, YaddaYadda said:

If he's about the prophecy and he's aware that the long night is coming, then maybe saving the kingdoms is his endgame? If a person knows that something horrible is going to happen, do they let it happen, or do they take the steps to prevent it/mitigate it? We saw Jon make the decision to let the Wildlings through the Wall because he knows what exists behind it and he understood the threat. And it was a pretty unpopular decision. People turned on him because of it. 

There just seem to be many moving parts to this prophecy and whatever version we are getting might be an incomplete one. Did he meet with other people that prophecy things like the Ghost of High Heart or even Maggy the Frog? He was in Lannisport for the tourney when he was seventeen, that was when Tywin offered Cersei as a bride and Aerys refused.  Cersei meets Maggy the Frog during that time. Maybe he went to see her too? Did he ever go to the Isle of Faces like Howland Reed did? 

If Rhaegar knew that the long night was coming, does he sit back and let it happen, or does he start preparing for it so that when it happens they are actually ready to fight?

 

The problem with that view is that the initial prophecy that set Rhaegar off on his obsession was the one that said the Prince That Was Promised was destined to be born of his father and mother's line. Now, this could be Rhaegar, OR it could mean some distant descendant a thousand years hence. What does Rhaegar do with this information? He immediately assumes that HE is the mighty warrior destined to save the world from apocalypse, and he immediately starts military training so that he can properly take on that warrior role.

He is absolutely wrong about being the PtwP. But the fact that he immediately decided he was, and hung on to that mistaken idea for YEARS while he labored to make himself match the image, throws an interesting light on his character. It may seem altruistic - hey, he wants to save the world! But at bottom there's something ugly about it. If it's a true prophecy, it WILL come true eventually regardless of  Rhaegar's efforts. To me, it seems that if I heard that I or some descendant of mine would become a mighty warrior and save the world from a hideous apocalypse in which millions died, I'd do my best to make sure to take up origami or accounting and never go NEAR a sword. If a mighty warrior of my blood is a necessary condition for the coming apocalypse, I'd make sure I would stay as far away as I could from becoming that warrior, to put off the evil advent of the apocalypse if at all possible, for my sake and the world's. Rhaegar, though? He tries to make himself MATCH the prophecy. So basically, some narcissistic part of him WANTS that prophecy to come true, WANTS to be the messiah and have the everlasting glory and fame of saving the world - regardless of how the world will have to suffer so his salvation will be necessary. That reveals a part of him that's solipsistic, selfish, glory-hungry and IMO not particularly sane.

Same happens with his kids. He eventually decides he's not the PTwP (probably because he's gotten too old and the world's remained disappointingly peaceful), and latched on to the part of the prophecy that says "the dragon must have three heads." He decides that means he (no one else) will have three children, one of whom will be the PTwP. When fate decrees that his lawful wife can provide him only two children, he has the choice available to simply remain faithful and not strive immediately after a third child. If it's truly fated that he will have three children, then surely a chance will come somewhere along the line without him needing to force things; Elia may die and he can marry again. And if it turns out that he's only destined to have two children - that means the apocalypse won't come in his time, and isn't that a GOOD thing?

But that doesn't suit Rhaegar. He sets aside the responsibility he has toward his family and his kingdom, leaving both in the hands of maddening Aerys while he again tries to force the prophecy to come true (and get the hot Northern chick - it's not sin! It's prophecy! It's destiny!) He is wrong - again - about his and Elia's children being two of the three dragons' heads. His wrongness gets his wife and children killed. Ironically, his bumbling DOES finally get the PTWP born in a way he doesn't anticipate. Whether this means Rhaegar also actually forced the apocalypse to happen remains an open question.

I don't think  we can necessarily call him a hero for bunglingly engineering the PTWP without any idea of what he was really doing, however useful the PTWP. I mean, the betrayal of Judas was necessary for the salvation of the world in the crucifixion story, but that doesn't make Judas' faults into virtues or turn him into the hero of the tale (except maybe in a few ancient Gnostic manuscripts).

[TarotQueen]

Thanks guys and sorry for the atrocious grammar in my post ... I was in a hurry and not being very thoughtful. 

1 hour ago, YaddaYadda said:

So Benjen would have been the Stark in Winterfell for Brandon's wedding. And then I'm assuming Brandon would have gone to Winterfell with Catelyn and Benjen would have gone south to Lyanna's wedding.

According to Catelyn, Brandon was on his way to Riverrun when he heard about Lyanna but then things become murky because Brandon talks to Catelyn about them being married when he returned from KL which implies that he met Catelyn somewhere or that she might even have been with him when he found out. Hoster Tully got pissed at Brandon's actions and called him a gallant fool. 

It's possible that Rickard sent Lyanna ahead of him or that she wasn't even traveling from Winterfell. If she was planning to run, an escort wouldn't have stopped her. 

It's the Brandon parts that are tangled though. I doubt he found anything out by raven since he was on the road. Someone saw something and more than likely spun it. 

This is a lot of clarification and I appreciate it, because I don't hang on to books as much as I would like to.   

I'm pleased to know you see something that seems fishy with Brandon's schedule of travel and information as well.  And oh yeah  that's right, Rickard = Dad of Ned, Rickon = Son of Ned.  Not always easy to keep those two straight! 

But goddamn these books!  Every question leads to even more questions!  I can't see how Lyanna and Rhaegar could have planned anything without her maester having been in on it.  I mean surely he would have passed the mail on to the master of the house, and surely Rickard would not have passed mail from a married man along to his already betrothed daughter. So there's another wtf?  Because if they didn't plan it, then how would they have "just run into each other" near Harrenhal and then immedately hauled ass so sudden like?  Cray.

 

2 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

Maester Walys is a bit of a wildcard. A lot of the accusations come from Barbrey's resentment of losing Brandon to Catelyn and her father's aspirations going to dust when Ned is married off to Catelyn after Brandon's death. So I don't know, and we don't know if he died, or just left, but I always found it interesting that the bastard son of a Hightower lady was gone from the north and Lynesse Hightower got married off to Jorah even though the match makes zero sense.

One of the things that I sort of go back to is that Rickard didn't seem to be in a rush to get to KL? Like he went because he was summoned there. One thing I've always wondered about is whether him marrying off his children to southron Houses was really for his ambitions or to ensure that he'd have swords if things that exist north of the Wall came back. With marriage, he commits these Houses to fighting alongside his House. 

Yeah, you make very good points. 

I guess both things could be true at once.  Rickard wanting Southern connections to help him defend from terrors above the wall, and Walys having "Southron Ambitions" and some degree collusion between them, or just use of the other by which ever of them was more clever than the other.  Or neither at all.  :P

[YaddaYadda]

8 minutes ago, screamin said:

The problem with that view is that the initial prophecy that set Rhaegar off on his obsession was the one that said the Prince That Was Promised was destined to be born of his father and mother's line. Now, this could be Rhaegar, OR it could mean some distant descendant a thousand years hence. What does Rhaegar do with this information? He immediately assumes that HE is the mighty warrior destined to save the world from apocalypse, and he immediately starts military training so that he can properly take on that warrior role.

He's not the only one who assumes he's the PtwP, Maester Aemon thinks so too because of what happened in Summerhall, because you know, salt from the tears and the smoke from the fire, when in reality what happened at Summerhall seems to be one major callback to Daenerys's funeral pyre that birthed her dragons. And probably the same kind of funeral pyre that will see Jon be brought back. 

And personally this is what absolutely bugs me about the signs of this prophecy, they are all guilty of interpreting it however they see fit. Marwyn had the right of it when he said what he said.

I think the interesting thing that came out of this whole PtwP situation with Rhaegar was that he was both a scholar and a warrior. That's a pretty huge accomplishment in its own because I don't recall there having a prince or a king who was a combination of both.

And I agree that a prophecy can be around for a thousand years before anything happens. The Azor Ahai prophecy has been around for how long? Thousands of years? Prophecies are such a mixed bag and the Targaryens are guilty of misinterpreting them and it cost them dearly. Egg essentially burned down Summerhall with his family inside to hatch his dragons because he didn't understand what the ghost of High Heart was saying, Jaehaerys married his Rhaella to Aerys and she was abused and Rhaegar changed his whole life to fit the prophecy.

There's nothing simple about any of this though. It's all very grey.

[YaddaYadda]

I have to wonder about how "obsessed" Rhaegar was with the prophecy. I'd have to go back in the text and see if the word has been used to describe him, or if it's something fandom came up with because of he's a Targaryen and that's a Targaryen tendency. I just find it doesn't truly add up when we put things into a timeline of sorts.

Rhaegar thinks he's the PtwP for years. So he takes the steps to try and fulfill that destiny. 

He names his firstborn Rhaenys. But if he was going with this whole naming scheme, wouldn't he have named Rhaenys Visenya instead. Visenya was the eldest of the three children. If his scheme is to have 3 children, name them after Aegon and his sisters, why not name the firstborn Visenya? 

When the tourney of Harrenhal rolls around, Aegon isn't born yet and we don't know if Elia was pregnant, if they knew she was pregnant or if it's something that happens after the tourney. So Rhaegar either still thinks he's the PtwP or he believes the child that's coming is it. And they don't know that Elia can't have anymore children. That's something he finds out after Aegon's birth. Jon Connington was there when he found out. 

He names his second born child Aegon because what better name for a king. But there are a few Aegons that have been abysmal rulers. But Aegon the Conqueror brought 6 kingdoms to heel. I doubt he'd want to name his son who has this huge mission set to him after Daeron I (although the ToJ might be the same place where Daeron died under the peace banner) or other kings that have come before.

In the House of the Undying, Dany sees that vision of her Rhaegar saying about Aegon that he already has a song and his is the song of ice and fire, which heavily implies that Rhaegar hasn't caught on to this at all. He assumes because he's got four out of seven signs going for Aegon, two of which are manufactured because Elia gave birth on Dragonstone.

There must be a third one, the dragon has three heads. As far as I can remember, Rhaegar, Maester Aemon, Sarella Sand and Marwyn are the ones who speak that line. This is clearly significant and we don't know what it means. At the same time, Maester Aemon seems to imply that anyone (anyone is used loosely here) can be a head of a dragon. Maester Aemon is upset that he's not a little younger so that he can go to Dany and be at her back as one of the heads of the dragon. If maester Aemon thinks that, then wouldn't Rhaegar be thinking that on some level too, that he could be the third head of the dragon. 

After Aegon is born, Rhaegar seems to make his way to the Red Keep, then he leaves there and ends up in the riverlands before he vanishes, but whoever his companions were, only Oswell Whent and Arthur Dayne remain by his side along with Lyanna. If Jon Connington and Myles Mooton were with him, they end up going home at some point. 

But Jon Connington is one of the keys in this one. If he was there for most of this and then some, then he also knows about the PtwP and Aegon (I also happen to think he might know about Jon).

Just bouncing some ideas off the internet.

Edited August 12, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[TarotQueen]

Hmm ... so what it seems you're saying is twisting the fandom idea that he needed lyanna to "fulfill the prophecy" on its head because he thought he had already done so in his first marriage?  That by the time they hooked up he might already have been thinking "good on ya, job well done" about himself by then?

With Rhaegar being a warrior and a scholar as you point out, and presumably a bit of a mystic too, it is very interesting to think of whom he may have sought guidance from, and what they may have advised him.  As you point out, he went to Kings Landing before the Riverlands ... 

[YaddaYadda]

1 hour ago, TarotQueen said:

Hmm ... so what it seems you're saying is twisting the fandom idea that he needed lyanna to "fulfill the prophecy" on its head because he thought he had already done so in his first marriage?  That by the time they hooked up he might already have been thinking "good on ya, job well done" about himself by then?

I'm gonna go back to the books before I tip my hands further ;)

[TarotQueen]

ooh i love it when you play hard to get!  :p

[YaddaYadda]

2 hours ago, Edith said:

Robert didn't start the war. The person who went south to demand for Rhaegar after what he did was Brandon. Robert went to war after the Mad king asked for his and Ned's head, and it was Jon Arryn who called the bannermen.

If someone is responsible for the war is Rhaegar and Lyanna. In what world the crown prince can set aside his lawful wife (daughter of the prince of Dorne) and kids. Runaway with the daughter of the warden of the north, who is engaged to the lord of the Stormlands, and think that it won't result in a war?! Specially when you know your father is Mad? 

(quoting you because it's easier. It just got confusing with all the quotes)

My question is was this whole leaving/running away with Lyanna premeditated? Or was an oh shit type situation, I need to act now?

The timeline on this makes me think that Lyanna's Knight of the Laughing Tree secret was outed. This disappearance happens sometime after Aegon is born. The way I see this whole thing is that it might fall in line with the Blackfyre plot that Varys has going in the present timeline with (f)Aegon.

So by all accounts (Barristan, Tywin come to mind), Rhaegar would have been a better king than his predecessors. He just had a son, and that secures the Targaryen throne. After Rhaegar comes Aegon, and unless something happens to either one of them, Viserys is now third in line and out of reach of the throne. 

If we go back to the tourney of Harrenhal, Aerys says that the mystery knight is no friend of his and wants him found, so who knows what kind of torture he had planned. Aerys sees traitors everywhere, Rhaegar and Tywin Lannister are at the top of that list. He hasn't left the Red Keep since the Defiance of Duskendale, but he goes to the tourney. Everyone assumes that it's because he was convinced by Varys that he should attend, so Varys who works for the realm undermines whatever plans Rhaegar (who might have been a really good king) may have had to call an informal council to remove Aerys from power. We know at the very least that Rhaegar was looking to make changes and would bring these changes about once the war was done. He tells Jaime as much in AFFC. 

So the Targaryen line is now secured through Aegon, which wouldn't be something that Varys would want if he and Illyrio are already scheming. What if he outs Lyanna as the Knight of the Laughing Tree which might possibly mark her as a traitor? If Lyanna is possibly considered a traitor, wouldn't Rhaegar by extension as the person who helped and lied for her to protect her from his father be considered a traitor as well? Kill two birds with one stone. Give Aerys his mystery knight and throw Rhaegar and possibly his line under the bus at the same time. 

Maybe that's why they took off in the first place. And maybe Rickard knew because he would have received that raven before the Aerys's summons, but Brandon rushed headlong into this because he "heard" his sister had been abducted. And it happened in the riverlands where she was. So he would find out before Rickard had news of anything. 

If Rhaegar is removed from the line of succession and Aerys decides that Aegon is the son of a traitor and that he shouldn't sit the throne either, then the crown goes to Viserys. Barristan Selmy tells Dany that Viserys was already showing signs of the madness, that he was his father's son in ways that Rhaegar never was. If Barristan saw it, then it's certain Varys did too.

With Viserys as the new crowned prince, Westeros gets two mad kings in a row. It's one thing for the kingdoms to be content to wait out Aerys's death, but give them another mad king and they might decide that enough is enough. The Seven Kingdoms are ripe for an invasion. 

This is another way Varys can bring his Blackfyre prince/king. Except this time, he doesn't bring him in as the son of the beloved Rhaegar Targaryen, but as a Blackfyre instead. Everytime there was a Blackfyre rebellion, there was a good king sitting the throne (in Aerys I's case, it was nipped in the bud rather quickly). This time, if there's a Blackfyre uprising, it would be Viserys sitting the throne, the king who was truly his father's son. 

And the way Brandon and Rickard died was savage. We know that Aerys was burning people, but the only lord we know he burned was Lord Chelsted and that was after he called him crazy and walked away and threw down his Hand chain (and this happened well after Brandon and Rickard died).

But Brandon and Rickard, one being strangled to death trying to save his father and the father being hung to the rafters and cooking in his armor is absolutely savage. If Lyanna is considered a traitor, then so is her family by extension. That may be why Ned's head was called for, Robert was her betrothed, so it would be easy for him to think that he was an accomplice. It was probably a matter of time before Benjen's head was called for too.

If Varys outed Lyanna and Rhaegar's secret, his plans really got out of control when Brandon showed up at the Red Keep. 

This is of course 100% speculation and could be (probably is) totally wrong. 

There are people who sought to sow division and Varys is very much at the top of that list and the people who were on the small council. I think that something had to give eventually between father and son. 

1 hour ago, GraceK said:

Does anyone think it's possible that Robert KNEW that Lyanna went willingly? Pure speculation on my part, I'm just wondering if he knew Lyanna didn't love him and he convinced himself she was Kidnapped?

For me, it was pretty revealing when he told Ned that he killed Rhaegar, but that in the end he still won because he had Lyanna. For me, the implication of that line was that those two were reunited in the afterlife. If Robert really thought in his heart of hearts that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna, he wouldn't be thinking that Rhaegar and Lyanna are enjoying the afterlife together. 

Robert fucked his way through The Peach before the Battle of the Bells. He stuck to the kidnapping story even though the more story we get, the more it seems like people don't seem to hold this against Rhaegar, which I think means they don't really believe that version of events. Jaime doesn't think about that once in his POV, Barristan doesn't either. Wyman Manderly is insulted that there's a Frey named Rhaegar. 

Edited August 26, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[TarotQueen]

I really want to get into this more so bad yadda yadda!

10 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

My question is was this whole leaving/running away with Lyanna premeditated? Or was an oh shit type situation, I need to act now?

But I'm on the Texas coast (north of landfall, touched by the rainy edges) and I need to preserve my battery for the time being in case the electricity goes out.

So catch you on the flip side of Harvey ...

[lucindabelle]

Even in this world. you have to have someone declare a marriage annulled.

 

A maester annulled Rhaegar's marriage. Why? On what possible grounds?

I seriously hope we learn she'd been cheating on him or something so Rhaegar seems less awful.

[Oscirus]

On 8/25/2017 at 7:53 PM, YaddaYadda said:

My question is was this whole leaving/running away with Lyanna premeditated? Or was an oh shit type situation, I need to act now?

Premeditated big time.  This is a guy who literally handed her that rose in front of her family and her betrothed.  It was pretty much a case of he was going to do what he wanted, when he wanted and he didn't give a damn about the consequences. Why else would he piss off three major families? Even if they won the war and he successfully took over as king , I can't imagine that he'd be able to soothe feeling with the North or the Dornish and Lyanna would likely be disowned by the North. So in the end, the only thing that Rhaegar would've had was a shrunken divided kingdom.  When he made off with Lyanna, he was thinking about nothing but his own hard on. Let's be real, Lyanna was a pretty one of a kind female and he absolutely had to have her.  People can pretend that it was all about the prophecy if they'd like, but there were plenty of fertile females around for him to make his third kid if that's what he was really worried about.

[Ambrosefolly]

21 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Premeditated big time.  This is a guy who literally handed her that rose in front of her family and her betrothed.  It was pretty much a case of he was going to do what he wanted, when he wanted and he didn't give a damn about the consequences. Why else would he piss off three major families? Even if they won the war and he successfully took over as king , I can't imagine that he'd be able to soothe feeling with the North or the Dornish and Lyanna would likely be disowned by the North. So in the end, the only thing that Rhaegar would've had was a shrunken divided kingdom.  When he made off with Lyanna, he was thinking about nothing but his own hard on. Let's be real, Lyanna was a pretty one of a kind female and he absolutely had to have her.  People can pretend that it was all about the prophecy if they'd like, but there were plenty of fertile females around for him to make his third kid if that's what he was really worried about.

 

In a world with Brienne and Arya, and the chicks from Bear Island, not that one of a kind. If the war didn't happen and Rhaegar and Lyanna admitted what they did, this is what would have happened (at least my fantasy):

• Dorne, with he backing of House Baratheon and Lannister (feeling insulted that Cersei wasn't asked to be his 2nd wife) would demand that Rhaegar lose his place in the line of succession as well as Jon, maybe even leap frog Rhanyeas over Aegon, as is the tradition of Dorne. I think that the Mad King would be happy to oblige the other kingdoms, as a baby or toddler would be his direct heir, not his popular adult son.
• Again, seeing Cersei being passed over a second time for someone already pledged to be married, Jaime would try to leave the Kingsguard, with Tywin's backing and Tywin would get his heir back. 
• Lyanna would be more or less disowned by her family. It wasn't just flaking on marrying Robert, but stealing away another woman's husband, a woman whose family was another great House. Nor would House Stark fight Dorne's demand that Jon lose any royal inheritance.
• Brandon and Cat would have been married and probably try to marry off one of their children to the Martells to make up for what Lyanna did.
• Viserys would probably stupid, but not cruel. If Arianne existed, he would probably be married off to her. 
• Robert and Cersei would still be married, and man if you think they could do a shit ton of damage when the hate each other, imagine what they could do on the same page with Tywin behind them .
• If Robert and Cersei had an honest to goodness child that was a girl, the Targs would come crawling to them to be married to Aegon in the hopes they won't fuck shit up.

[Jazzy24]

11 hours ago, Ambrosefolly said:

In a world with Brienne and Arya, and the chicks from Bear Island, not that one of a kind. If the war didn't happen and Rhaegar and Lyanna admitted what they did, this is what would have happened (at least my fantasy):

• Dorne, with he backing of House Baratheon and Lannister (feeling insulted that Cersei wasn't asked to be his 2nd wife) would demand that Rhaegar lose his place in the line of succession as well as Jon, maybe even leap frog Rhanyeas over Aegon, as is the tradition of Dorne. I think that the Mad King would be happy to oblige the other kingdoms, as a baby or toddler would be his direct heir, not his popular adult son.
• Again, seeing Cersei being passed over a second time for someone already pledged to be married, Jaime would try to leave the Kingsguard, with Tywin's backing and Tywin would get his heir back. 
• Lyanna would be more or less disowned by her family. It wasn't just flaking on marrying Robert, but stealing away another woman's husband, a woman whose family was another great House. Nor would House Stark fight Dorne's demand that Jon lose any royal inheritance.
• Brandon and Cat would have been married and probably try to marry off one of their children to the Martells to make up for what Lyanna did.
• Viserys would probably stupid, but not cruel. If Arianne existed, he would probably be married off to her. 
• Robert and Cersei would still be married, and man if you think they could do a shit ton of damage when the hate each other, imagine what they could do on the same page with Tywin behind them .
• If Robert and Cersei had an honest to goodness child that was a girl, the Targs would come crawling to them to be married to Aegon in the hopes they won't fuck shit up.

Why is Lyanna who would be considered a child when the kidnapping happened be the one to be disowned by her family in your fantasy? Lyana who has the least agency in this scenario is the one suffering the most along with Jon, why is that? 

[Ambrosefolly]

9 hours ago, Jazzy24 said:

Why is Lyanna who would be considered a child when the kidnapping happened be the one to be disowned by her family in your fantasy? Lyana who has the least agency in this scenario is the one suffering the most along with Jon, why is that? 

 

We know the truth now: Lyanna went willingly with Rhaegar, stupid teenager that she was. She wasn't kidnapped and raped. They both seemed to have planned it around the marriage of her brother Brandon, probably because her family would be preoccupied with that. And she knew full well that that Rhaegar was married with kids, even if he wasn't madly in love with Elia. Even by today's standards, displacing another woman isn't looked on kindly. Look at how people reacted to the Aniston/Pitt/Jolie saga and there is still rumors William might skip over his father in the line of succession. While her family wouldn't necessarily disown, they wouldn't protect her or Jon from losing out on inheritance rights. 

[Pogojoco]

This might be over forgiving, but I'm willing to bet a few things: Elia was on board with Rhaeger taking on Lyanna as a second wife. Dornish are more free about love and sex. I don't think this marriage is annulled in the books, I think it's a second marriage and the fact that Lyanna is hiding in Dorne,  with Arthur Dayne guarding her, is an indication. I know Dayne is Rhaeger's best friend and Rhaeger is his prince, but House Dayne is still sworn to House Martell. 

If Elia knows she can't have anymore children and believes this "dragon has three heads" stuff, she might be on board. Also, Great House of the North and the Great House of the Far South coming together behind Rhaeger is pretty powerful. A marriage between Ned Stark and Ashara Dayne might also solidify this alliance. 

I think the messages about this plan were sabotaged somehow, not just because it doesn't seem likely they just ran off, but also because thinking you are doing something correctly  and it being ruined is far more tragic than just being selfish idiots. It would not be unlike GRRM to twist the knife. A tough situation with people trying to do their best and it all turns to crap anyway. 

 

The Cersei/Rhaeger marriage was already considered not on the table as Aerys had already said no to marrying his son to his "servant's" daughter. Tywin would probably be more concerned with being Rhaeger's Hand, too. And possibly marrying Jaime off to Lysa Tully (I'm sorry, the idea of that always makes me chuckle so I bring it up whenever I can.) 

Edited August 30, 2017 by Pogojoco

[screamin]

3 hours ago, Pogojoco said:

This might be over forgiving, but I'm willing to bet a few things: Elia was on board with Rhaeger taking on Lyanna as a second wife. Dornish are more free about love and sex. I don't think this marriage is annulled in the books, I think it's a second marriage and the fact that Lyanna is hiding in Dorne,  with Arthur Dayne guarding her, is an indication. I know Dayne is Rhaeger's best friend and Rhaeger is his prince, but House Dayne is still sworn to House Martell. 

If Elia knows she can't have anymore children and believes this "dragon has three heads" stuff, she might be on board. Also, Great House of the North and the Great House of the Far South coming together behind Rhaeger is pretty powerful. A marriage between Ned Stark and Ashara Dayne might also solidify this alliance. 

 

If Elia knew what was going to happen, why wasn't she in Dorne visiting her family with her kids - where she'd have been safe - instead of being in Dragonstone subject to being dragged off to the Red Keep by Aerys as a hostage when the shit hit the fan?

The Dornish are no doubt free about love and sex, but not about protecting their children. Elia might not have a qualm about Rhaegar taking a mistress and begetting bastards, but him taking a second wife and begetting legitimate children means that he's putting rivals in the line of succession right behind her own children - rivals with a different, powerful grandfather known to be 'ambitious.' Dorne is also more free about murder with scorpions and suchlike, and Elia might reasonably worry that Rickard's ambitions might extend to little Aegon dying of a sudden suspicious fever the way many newborns do.

You're right that all would be explained if Elia believed in Rhaegar's obsessions as firmly as Rhaegar himself did, and gave her blessing to his plans in a folie a deux, infected by his charisma with his own fanatic belief that he was the man of destiny and prophecy and nothing he was bent on doing could possibly go wrong - no matter how badly planned and executed. We don't have any particular indication that Elia believed all that, but then we don't know enough to know she didn't, either.

[Ambrosefolly]

1 minute ago, screamin said:

If Elia knew what was going to happen, why wasn't she in Dorne visiting her family with her kids - where she'd have been safe - instead of being in Dragonstone subject to being dragged off to the Red Keep by Aerys as a hostage when the shit hit the fan?

The Dornish are no doubt free about love and sex, but not about protecting their children. Elia might not have a qualm about Rhaegar taking a mistress and begetting bastards, but him taking a second wife and begetting legitimate children means that he's putting rivals in the line of succession right behind her own children - rivals with a different, powerful grandfather known to be 'ambitious.' Dorne is also more free about murder with scorpions and suchlike, and Elia might reasonably worry that Rickard's ambitions might extend to little Aegon dying of a sudden suspicious fever the way many newborns do.

You're right that all would be explained if Elia believed in Rhaegar's obsessions as firmly as Rhaegar himself did, and gave her blessing to his plans in a folie a deux, infected by his charisma with his own fanatic belief that he was the man of destiny and prophecy and nothing he was bent on doing could possibly go wrong - no matter how badly planned and executed. We don't have any particular indication that Elia believed all that, but then we don't know enough to know she didn't, either.

 

I was about to post something similar. Rhaegar didn't necessarily need to be married to create the third head of the dragon. A mistress is one thing-if Rhaegar didn't do something stupid (which he kind of did) and legitimize them, Elia would have been fine, because at least her kids would be next in line of succession. Considering that Dorne favors absolute primogeniture, they would not take kindly to Jon usurping Rhaenys place in the line of succession, nor any of Rhaenys' children if had any. And Rhaegar could absolutely be passed over his place in the line of succession, with his young children taking his place. 

[Pogojoco]

11 minutes ago, screamin said:

If Elia knew what was going to happen, why wasn't she in Dorne visiting her family with her kids - where she'd have been safe - instead of being in Dragonstone subject to being dragged off to the Red Keep by Aerys as a hostage when the shit hit the fan?

The Dornish are no doubt free about love and sex, but not about protecting their children. Elia might not have a qualm about Rhaegar taking a mistress and begetting bastards, but him taking a second wife and begetting legitimate children means that he's putting rivals in the line of succession right behind her own children - rivals with a different, powerful grandfather known to be 'ambitious.' Dorne is also more free about murder with scorpions and suchlike, and Elia might reasonably worry that Rickard's ambitions might extend to little Aegon dying of a sudden suspicious fever the way many newborns do.

You're right that all would be explained if Elia believed in Rhaegar's obsessions as firmly as Rhaegar himself did, and gave her blessing to his plans in a folie a deux, infected by his charisma with his own fanatic belief that he was the man of destiny and prophecy and nothing he was bent on doing could possibly go wrong - no matter how badly planned and executed. We don't have any particular indication that Elia believed all that, but then we don't know enough to know she didn't, either.

Sure, all of that. But Rickard's ambitions were more along the lines of marrying his kids to  families in the south, not poisoning infants. If Eliya is worried about the end of the world and the need for the three headed dragon or whatever, why would she care about her children's succession lines? Maybe she doesn't want her children on the Iron Throne in the first place. I dunno, but maybe. 

If they sent word to Winterfell that got sabotaged, maybe messages to Dragonstone did, too. 

The whole thing is that no one knows. But there are a lot of possibilities that extend beyond "Rhaeger is crazy/terrible" which is the oft repeated opinion of many. 

[screamin]

1 minute ago, Pogojoco said:

Sure, all of that. But Rickard's ambitions were more along the lines of marrying his kids to  families in the south, not poisoning infants. If Eliya is worried about the end of the world and the need for the three headed dragon or whatever, why would she care about her children's succession lines? Maybe she doesn't want her children on the Iron Throne in the first place. I dunno, but maybe. 

If they sent word to Winterfell that got sabotaged, maybe messages to Dragonstone did, too. 

The whole thing is that no one knows. But there are a lot of possibilities that extend beyond "Rhaeger is crazy/terrible" which is the oft repeated opinion of many. 

I think your current explanation is more like "Elia was crazy, too." :) Not that that doesn't make sense, because it does.

[Pogojoco]

1 minute ago, screamin said:

I think your current explanation is more like "Elia was crazy, too." :) Not that that doesn't make sense, because it does.

There is a effin' lot of crazy running around. I honestly don't think the marriage was annulled though. Dorne is a much greater part of the story and wasn't totally botched like it was in the show. Also, I'm not sure show only people realize that Targs were polygamists- that Aegon the Conqueror had two sister/wives who also had dragons. And that it was the three of them together that made it happen. 

Dorne is a much richer and more interesting place. Pedro Pascal captured it, but the rest sucked. 

[screamin]

1 minute ago, Pogojoco said:

There is a effin' lot of crazy running around. I honestly don't think the marriage was annulled though. Dorne is a much greater part of the story and wasn't totally botched like it was in the show. Also, I'm not sure show only people realize that Targs were polygamists- that Aegon the Conqueror had two sister/wives who also had dragons. And that it was the three of them together that made it happen. 

Dorne is a much richer and more interesting place. Pedro Pascal captured it, but the rest sucked. 

I don't think it's necessarily 'crazy,' exactly. Rhaegar is described as insanely charismatic - IIRC, every single person who describes him, except Robert, thinks of him as great and honorable and good - even though they don't actually describe him as actually DOING anything to merit such a reputation for goodness and honor. It seems to be all charisma. Elia was described as being in love with him, and it stands to reason that a guy with that much force of personality pushing his ideas over the years on a woman already disposed to listen and sympathize would eventually convince her, like any cult member adoring the leader and going along with him, no matter how weird and destructive his ideas become.

Re Rickard Stark: We don't know just how far Rickard's ambitions would extend; in the books he's described as "Rickard Stark had great ambitions too. Southron ambitions..." More importantly, Elia could not know for sure that Rickard's Southron ambitions wouldn't extend so far as to adopt Southron court tactics for getting ahead - including murder. Where your kids in the line of succession are concerned in Westeros, it's unwise not to worry. Though of course, if Elia believed implicitly in Rhaegar and his prophecies, she'd probably share his belief that NOTHING could go wrong because his interpretations of fate and destiny will work out just the way he plans.

[Pogojoco]

1 minute ago, screamin said:

I don't think it's necessarily 'crazy,' exactly. Rhaegar is described as insanely charismatic - IIRC, every single person who describes him, except Robert, thinks of him as great and honorable and good - even though they don't actually describe him as actually DOING anything to merit such a reputation for goodness and honor. It seems to be all charisma. Elia was described as being in love with him, and it stands to reason that a guy with that much force of personality pushing his ideas over the years on a woman already disposed to listen and sympathize would eventually convince her, like any cult member adoring the leader and going along with him, no matter how weird and destructive his ideas become.

Re Rickard Stark: We don't know just how far Rickard's ambitions would extend; in the books he's described as "Rickard Stark had great ambitions too. Southron ambitions..." More importantly, Elia could not know for sure that Rickard's Southron ambitions wouldn't extend so far as to adopt Southron court tactics for getting ahead - including murder. Where your kids in the line of succession are concerned in Westeros, it's unwise not to worry. Though of course, if Elia believed implicitly in Rhaegar and his prophecies, she'd probably share his belief that NOTHING could go wrong because his interpretations of fate and destiny will work out just the way he plans.

I think Lady Dustin, who we get that "ambition" stuff from, is biased. I mean, she's holding Ned Stark's bones hostage. I just like Stefan Sasse's theory about it. 

[Jazzy24]

5 hours ago, Ambrosefolly said:

I was about to post something similar. Rhaegar didn't necessarily need to be married to create the third head of the dragon. A mistress is one thing-if Rhaegar didn't do something stupid (which he kind of did) and legitimize them, Elia would have been fine, because at least her kids would be next in line of succession. Considering that Dorne favors absolute primogeniture, they would not take kindly to Jon usurping Rhaenys place in the line of succession, nor any of Rhaenys' children if had any. And Rhaegar could absolutely be passed over his place in the line of succession, with his young children taking his place. 

I don't think Rhaenys had a line of succession. I think Aegon(the one who fought his half sister for that ugly chair in The Dance of the Dragons)wrote a decree that women can't inherit the Iron Throne so succession goes like this Aerys>Rhaegar>Aegon>Viserys and so on. If Jon was a legitimate Targ he would be after Aegon.

I hope Elia didn't know anything about Rhaegar's plan. I also hope she wasn't okay with him taking a mistress for no reason. She was a Princess of Dorne and the future Queen she shouldn't have taken Rhaegar's bullshit. Now I'm a Lyanna and Rhaegar fan because I'm a Stark and Targaryen fan but I like Elia and her feelings and tragic fate should never be lost in the grand scheme of things. 

Now I know people don't like Rhaegar especially considering his behavior towards Elia but I do like to think that he was fond of her, and I'm okay with that. What I'm not okay with is his blatant disrespect of Elia at the Harrenhall tourney or leaving her in Aerys's care(she and her children should have been in Dorne) I hope GRRM writes it better where Elia has a voice in some way at what was done to her by Rhaegar, Aerys, Tywin, Gregor, even Robert and Jon Arryn did her wrong when he stood over her dead babies and called them dragonspawns, dehumanizing them and rewarding their murderers(I have never hated characters such as Tywin, Robert, Gregor, and Jon Arryn) Again I hope GRRM does better by myElia and not have her blindly follow her husbands belief to the point where she's okay with him taking another woman into their marriage.