S04.E12: The Vision

[whoknowswho]

2 hours ago, green said:

I agree way to modern and totally out of place.  She and the Chiness woman the first half of this season were major missteps I feel like I said up thread.

But I don't see any persecutions going on in Viking society regards homosexuals.  If you have a link to a history of the Vikings that mentions that I'd be interested to read it.  Otherwise why would they be?  Pagan societies were usual fine with it.

And I don't know if there was any major persecutions of the death making kind in England and France back then either.  Sure there was a thing in one verse in the Bible about it but there was even more stuff against eating pork which they all ate.  The Catholic Church was the only church in western Europe then and only the educated class, mainly the priests and monks, could read Latin which was what the Bible only was in.  Most commoners would have no idea about any verse about anything unless the priest read it at a service or the Pope issued an edict. 

Most people knew that there were people who were gay but as long as they didn't hold Gay Pride parades people just looked the other way.  Worst case, some might get shunned or become outcasts but not drawn and quartered I should think.  Not the best fates but not some mass witch burning equivalent either.  More a don't ask, don't tell environment unless some ruler of some fiefdom or some individual bishop got on their high horse about the issue.

It wasn't until the Protestant Reformation when anyone leaving the Catholic Church could make up any old church they wanted for themselves that you got into a lot of weird niche stuff as small sects could get riled up about this and that thing.  Also at that time because of same the Bible started to be translated into the common every day languages for the first time on any real large scale.  So there may have been some increase in public prejudice starting around about that time I guess.  But never a death sentence.

Again I could be wrong.  Maybe there were small flare-ups of prejudice that could result in death but no generalized history shows any massive death sentences for homosexuality until Hitler and the Nazis that I know of.  And they didn't like Christianity much either. 

Again maybe I'm wrong.  I'm no expert of the history of gay people.  I just know it wasn't a big deal in most pagan cultures like Greece and Rome so I'd assume the same for the pagan Vikings.  I figure that is the whole point Hirst is making by having a token gay character.  "Look, Vikings, they are really the progressives of the age."

No, you are right--It was sort of off hand comments, as I was grumbling about things I didn't like in this season.  Not meant to be taken really  literally--but in England--Judith had her ear cut off, and I think they were planning on taking both, plus her nose when Eckbert intervened on her behalf, for cheating with Aethelstan--what if instead she'd taken a female lover? I can't see that as having gone over well, either.  I could be way off base.  Probably not drawn and quartered, but maybe not beloved to the masses, either.  Women had more rights and liberties in Viking society--they could be shield maidens/warriors--than women in "gentile" society in England and France.  Though of course we had Queen Crazypants, who was both ferocious in deeds and ferocious of sexual appetite...

I remember in season one--Lagertha and Ragnar invited Athelstan to their bed -- "why don't you join us?"--more I think to shock him than anything--this was really soon after he'd been taken from England.  The Vikings had pretty crazy parties with 'shrooms at Upsalla, so they were far from prudish.   But Lagertha--why did they have to make this her story? I'm probably just projecting my bias on to her I guess--at my age--roughly similar to her's, and having had several long, not great heterosexual relationships with marriage--if I were suddenly single tomorrow would I suddenly be gay?  No.  Either you are or you aren't, and I am not. They could have made anyone else the token gay, why did it have to be Lagertha?  I'm annoyed, and I'm annoyed for Hirst messing with my favorite character in the series I used to love so much. That's all. 

[Captanne]

You bring up a good point, though -- about the season one menage a trois invitation to Ragnar/Lagertha/Athelstan.  Perhaps since the beginning, the point has been that the Vikings had very open sexuality rules.  Even in this very episode, Auslag says to the sons, you don't need to love a woman.  You just need one to breed.  In other words, sex is fun, sex is for men, sex is for women, sex transcends class, sex is for anyone, sex is for humans and gods, sex is for breeding, sex is for love.  It's for any combination of the above.  

I don't have a problem with Astrid, myself.  Just because Lagertha has long term male relationships for various reasons (see the list above), she can't have sex with a woman?  That doesn't follow, for me.  I've exclusively had long term relationships with men but I'd kiss Catherine Deneuve into next Tuesday.  If she likes sex with anyone that fits the format the writers have set for us since season one.

ANYway, what I didn't see in this episode, was Auslaug particularly drunk.  Was she?  I know she was having ale and wine but so was every other character.  I didn't see her overindulge.  Did I miss some scene where she embarrassed herself?

Edited December 11, 2016 by Captanne

[ghoulina]

17 hours ago, PatsyandEddie said:

Great explanation green! Kattegat seems crowded and impersonal and Aslaug is quite far removed from her people. Not just by arrogance but by her wine cup. 

Yes, now I think that may have been what she was getting at. Bigger isn't always better. Kattegat has lost that "family" feeling. It may be thriving in some ways, but not in others.

[gwhh]

They should have called this episode:  how the mightily have fallen

http://projectfandom.com/vikings-s4e12-review/

[green]

22 hours ago, whoknowswho said:

I remember in season one--Lagertha and Ragnar invited Athelstan to their bed -- "why don't you join us?"--more I think to shock him than anything--this was really soon after he'd been taken from England.

I think it was a genuine offer.  They had no knowledge at the time about Saxon/Christian norms regards sex let alone the vow of chastity a monk would take.

Remember when Ragnar was wounded and holed up at Floki's cabin?  Rollo sent a message to him via one of their fellow friends/raiders and he was eyeing Floki's new lady, Helga?  Well they ended up inviting him to a roll in the hay.  It was a generous offer from the hosts they made to him and he took no time in joining them.  I think Ragnar and Lagertha were doing the same and were totally surprised at Athelstan declining.

[Captanne]

The comment could also mean -- "you've made Kattegat a den of thieves".

The problem is -- we don't know.  Which is why I think something was left on the cutting room floor. 

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Ivar Is The Messed Up Warrior Vikings Needs Now

He's probably going to kill someone for no good reason, but did you see him on those crutches?

[Scaeva]

Could Lagertha have been criticizing Kattegat, because she views its prosperous nature as having made its people soft?

The ancient Romans had a similar idea about access to luxuries and easy living. They thought poverty and a lack of creature comforts created hard men, and luxury and civilization made them soft and weak.  To the Roman mind, only the iron discipline of their legions could counter the diminishing effects civilization had on martial vigor, and they were always paranoid that they might become too decadent and lose their edge. 

The barbarians, who lacked Roman organization and discipline, could only rely on their bravery, and the Romans attributed their valor (or lack of it, depending on the culture or tribe) to how settled the people had become and their access to luxuries. 

Although a lot of people are setting out with Bjorn for raids, maybe it has been quite some time since the people of Kattegat went raiding (why raid if you live in a prosperous community?), and Lagertha views them as having become a bit fat and complacent.

[Lady Iris]

I've drunk the icy cold waters of this fjord and don't wanna stop. I binged on season's 1-4 over the past couple of weeks and I'm converting to paganism. (Just kidding JC. I'm with you to the end.) What an amazing show. I've enjoyed reading the forums and catching up on the recaps.

Can't wait to see Rollo again. Next pet I get, if its a boy will be named Rollo.

Poor Ragnar. I can't imagine what he can possibly accomplish in England, if they even make it there. Seems like a fool's mission but I can understand why he's trying.

[BitterApple]

Every time I look at one of those Viking longships I think "they sailed all the way to North America in those?! They must have had balls the size of boulders back then. One good-sized wave and you're a goner.

[Captanne]

Well, to be fair, they "island" hopped and hugged coastlines.  There's plenty of land to "drop in and visit" on the way.

*And by "drop in and visit" I mean, of course, rape and pillage.

Edited December 14, 2016 by Captanne

[whoknowswho]

4 hours ago, Lady Iris said:

I've drunk the icy cold waters of this fjord and don't wanna stop. I binged on season's 1-4 over the past couple of weeks and I'm converting to paganism. (Just kidding JC. I'm with you to the end.) What an amazing show. I've enjoyed reading the forums and catching up on the recaps.

Can't wait to see Rollo again. Next pet I get, if its a boy will be named Rollo.

Poor Ragnar. I can't imagine what he can possibly accomplish in England, if they even make it there. Seems like a fool's mission but I can understand why he's trying.

Nothing wrong with being pagan.  My "cathedral" is outside my door, in nature and the animals all around us.  :)  

As for Ragnar going back to England, I think that's maybe how they'll wrap up his character, perhaps even following historical accounts.

Spoiler

 I think he has a death wish, and Eckbert may not feel his wrath, but I think he might be a stand-in for Aella--which means Ivar will be involved. Will be interesting to see what Hirst does with this.  Total speculation on my part, I really have no idea.

Edited December 14, 2016 by whoknowswho
to put the spoiler in the right place.

[Captanne]

In this very episode, we saw Ragnar try to hang himself.  (Was that this episode?  Or the last one?  Getting old is not for the weak.)

[millennium]

On 12/9/2016 at 2:49 AM, Ravenya003 said:

 

Most viewers hate Aslaug, and I can certainly understand why - though I have a weird compulsion to defend the female characters that fandom hates, and I think Aslaug gets a raw deal sometimes. It's disappointing that the writer has decided to ignite a rivalry between Lagertha/Aslaug when it was so refreshing that it was avoided in all the preceding seasons. Lagertha has a right to be pissed at Aslaug, but she was proud and big enough to rise above vengeance - that's part of the reason we love her! Now suddenly she's come back for revenge? And her words: "look at what you've done [to Kattegut]" didn't make any sense. Under Aslaug's rule it became a flourishing Viking metropolis! 

 

I like Aslaug, always have, from the moment she strode into Ragnar's camp looking like a Nordic goddess from a Frank Frazetta painting.  Alyssa Sutherland is a beautiful woman and she has done an admirable job with a thankless role.   Aslaug's burden and her nobility were summed up by Ragnar himself in this episode, in a very touching scene.   She looked spooky as hell in her sacrificial paint.   I don't normally "ship" people but part of me always hoped Aslaug and Lagertha would get together and treat Ragnar to an O. Henry ending. 

[nodorothyparker]

This episode was simply brutal to watch, from the Sigurd-Ivar dinner confrontation to Ragnar taking villager abuse and lowering himself to bribing his third or fourth-string crew with treasures of his past conquests.   When the sons confronted him in the market about embarrassing himself you could really see how the mighty had indeed fallen in their eyes.  Treasure has never really mattered all that much to Ragnar compared to the journey and experience so it wasn't really that much a shock to see him giving it away so freely though.

So apparently the slave girl whose name escapes me isn't as clever as I gave her credit for being.  If you're the only person the guy has been with and you tell everyone about it, yes, he is going to know it was you and he probably isn't going to believe you when you say that it wasn't.  I was somewhat pleasantly surprised that she didn't end up dead after that scene, which would have been the easy go-to on some shows to indicate that Ivar is THE EVIL.  I  did like Ubbe admitting that Ivar terrifies him too.  

The explanations I'm seeing here seem as good a reason as any for Lagertha suddenly deciding after 20 years that she has to have revenge right now.  I don't know.  It mostly just ends up feeling like the writers couldn't figure out what else to do with her if she's not going with either raiding party so why not have her randomly go after the rival that much of the viewing audience doesn't like.  As always, I like her scenes with Bjorn who really has grown into the role as the best of both of his parents.

I've never been much of a fan of Aslaug because she's often felt underwritten and entirely too dependent on being the daughter of famous parents, but her scene with Ragnar was magnificent.  This episode is also only one of a handful where I actually found myself sort of understanding and sympathizing with her. She's probably gone above and beyond to coddle and protect Ivar from a world that clearly would have preferred that he had been left out to die, which isn't an uncommon experience for parents of special needs kids even now, only to now have him casually throw that aside to go traipsing off with the father who's been absent from much of his raising and clearly doesn't share her concerns for his safety.   I can only assume the weird miscarriage that wasn't scenes spliced with the ocean storm were supposed to be a symbol of that.  Ivar absolutely sold the line about preferring to live one day with his father as a man even if it killed him rather than living a lifetime of pity.   The easy relationship between Ragnar and Ivar continues to fascinate me as Ragnar is hitting perfectly on that line of acceptance without pity or condescension.

The storm was very well done.  The show has clearly come a long way from those first season effects of trying to make it look like they were tossing a small single boat around.  

[Lugal]

On 12/18/2016 at 7:52 PM, nodorothyparker said:

The explanations I'm seeing here seem as good a reason as any for Lagertha suddenly deciding after 20 years that she has to have revenge right now.

It makes sense.  She's always hated Aslaug, but now she sees that Aslaug is vulnerable and Lagertha could retake Kattegat.

Quote

But I don't see any persecutions going on in Viking society regards homosexuals.  If you have a link to a history of the Vikings that mentions that I'd be interested to read it.  Otherwise why would they be?  Pagan societies were usual fine with it.

One of the worst insults in Viking society was "unmanly behavior" which could mean homosexuality, or cowardice or both.  Homosexuality (at least between men) was looked down on in Viking society.  In one saga a man is insulted by his enemies as "the Gay" and "the Effeminate." In Gisli Sursson's saga:

Quote

There was a man named Ref who worked for Skeggi as a carpenter.  Skeggi asked him to make wooden effigies in the likenesses of Gisli and Kolbjorn.  "And one will stand behind the other," he said and these figures of scorn will remain like that forever to mock them."

According to the translator, the original wording makes it clear that a sexual insult was intended.  It also leads to a duel between Skeggi and Gisli where Skeggi loses a leg.