S04.E03: Breaker Of Chains 2014.04.20

[Which Tyler]

This Forum is for Unsullied Members to post in: those who have vowed to not only not read the books, but also to not watch previews, read information on the Viewer's Guide, or seek any information outside of what has been IN THE EPISODES ONLY.
For the purposes of The Habitat there are 4 categories of visitor:

 

Unsullied = Only watch the show from HBO static to closing credits. Nothing else, nada, zilch, zip. = Welcome to post in here.

Unspoiled = Haven't read the books. Watch the show plus ‘next time on’ previews and/or interviews/reviews and/or own GoT DVD boxsets and/or access HBO GoT content. = Please post in the main GoT forum, where the No Spoiler threads cater to you.

Partially spoiled Bookwalker = Have read some of the books but none beyond where the show has broadcast. = Please post in the main GoT forum.

Fully spoiled Bookwalker = Have read either all of the books or past where the show has broadcast. = Please post in the main GoT forum, there are even Book Talk threads for you.

 

Unless you fall into the Unsullied category above you should be in READ-ONLY mode in this thread (and sub-forum).

Thank you for your cooperation.

 

Episode Synopsis:

Tyrion considers his options; Tywin extends an olive branch; Sam questions the safety of Castle Black; Jon proposes a plan; the Hound teaches Arya; Dany chooses her champion.

[AimingforYoko]

Oh, Littlefinger. The tipoff that he was involved was that he was nowhere near the crime scene. Tywin has some serious competition for top magnificent bastard.

[silverwings]

Argh, I feel like an idiot for not thinking Littlefinger last week (he's been off the show for so long I nearly forgot about him).  But this episode made me think he did it, the sneaky genius. I also kinda feel like Sansa jumped out of the oven and into the frying pan...

Otherwise, this seemed like a lot of setup for all the other plotlines. I'm going to miss Pod.  Hope he ends up somewhere to live out his days and gets away from the crazy place.  And Jaime, you were doing so well on redeeming yourself for pushing Bran and now you go and do that.  Back to the drawing board for you.

[Snowblack]

Little Finger never even crossed my mind.  What exactly does he gain from Joffrey's death?  Other than Sansa, of course.  I'm really surprised.  Who else would be involved in a plot with Little Finger?  Tywin maybe.  It's amazing how well things are falling into place for Tywin all of a sudden.  He went from having an uncontrollable grandson as king and Tyrion trying to get Casterly Rock to having an easily manipulayed grandson as king and Tyrion imprisoned.  And now he's cutting deals with Dorne.  Someone needs to kill Tywin.

Danaerys is just so...boring.  I loved that she gave some love to poor Jorah though.  And a literal pissing contest!  Wonderful!

Jon Snow is finally all grown up!  He's making the tough decisions that show he has gained the wisdom he needs to lead.  And he knows that his wildling girl is massacring innocent peasants.  Who knows how much that has to do with his push to leave her raiding party alone.

Jaime...shame on him.  I just can't even...

The scene with Podrick and Tyrion was so good!  There are so few truly good characters in this show.  I hope that doesn't mean they'll kill him.

Edited April 21, 2014 by Snowblack

[stillshimpy]

Wow, so almost immediately I almost died of shock because finally Sansa had the sense to leave with someone trying to rescue her. Then it turned out that Dontos was delivering her to freaking Littlefinger. Argh!! I suppose it's just as well, since apparently Cersei didn't kill Joffrey , but all that wine has finally pickled her brain. 

Winner for the most disturbing, bizarre scene has to be Jaime raping Cersei on the floor by their son's dead body.  Yeah, that even felt surreal to type.  

So Tywin certainly took that in stride, to the extent that I'd almost believe that he had Joffrey killed, since he ended up with a much more controllable King.  I take it was just Littlefinger though?  Well, that's sort of a weird plot development.  As was Dontos simply being part of Littlefinger's scheme.  Can't say I was sorry to see him killed after that and Littlefinger was actually right, he couldn't be trusted with what he knew. 

Still, there's another dead dream and belief in fairy tales for Sansa.  He didn't care that she'd saved his life, he was just looking for gold.  

I am so glad they recast Daario, he just makes more sense to me now.  Before Dany would have looked like an imbecile for liking him because rather than roguish, he just seemed unctuous.  Now I buy the appeal a lot more.  That was a cute scene, if a scene where a horse is killed (this show is really hard on horses) , a man beheaded and men mark like terriers could be called "cute", I suppose.  

Plus, it was funny, "Sorry Grey Worm, you're too important.  No, Barristan, you are highly valued.  Jorah, you are my most trusted adviser and friend...Daario, thy name is Expendable, go for it!"

As for Tyrion on trial, I guess I should be more nervous than I am.  Out of the Lannisters, Tyrion is the Lannister I come closest to actually liking.  Guess it's not so close that I'm worried about him though.  Admittedly, in all seriousness, it seems unlikely that Tywin would want Tyrion put to death for treason.  Tryion does have the last name of Lannister, after all.  

How in the world did the Dornish fight off Aegon's dragons?  Is Dorne going to be the key to stopping Dany? 

Also, way to go Sam.  Not only is that still the most astoundingly boring story in the series, but he managed to put poor Gilly and her son in the only place that might be less safe than Castle Black.  

Apparently a Ygritte scorned is at least once again accurate with her arrows.  Although killing that village full of people was tactically pointless and I'm not sure why the Thenns want the Crowes to know they are coming.  Oh...hooray , more stuff about Craster's.  Joy.  

Edited April 21, 2014 by stillshimpy

[Snowblack]

Okay, so I don't like that Tywin is in on this "get Sansa" and "get Tyrion" thing. He's not that stupid. That just makes me think even more that he is involved. In Tommen he finally has the child he always hoped Jaime would be. This can't go well for Tommen. Unless someone kills Tywin soon! (Pretty please?) Tommen is like a Ned Stark. He needs guidance to survive, but Tywin's guidance? Please no.

The Little Finger scene is great. The ghost ships in the harbor are so well done. I wonder if Sansa catches on that if Little Finger knows that Joffrey is dead, that means he was involved. It's hard to say just how savvy she is. She's certainly more cunning than she used to be, but it's hard to say whether she has changed that much. I guess this explains why we didn't see Little Finger courting crazy Auny Lysa yet. And the prospect of Arya and Sansa both heading for the Aerie is wonderful. I guess a reunion is too much to hope for. 

Margaery's conversation with her grandmother convinces me she wasn't involved. She gains nothing by Joffrey's death. And it reinforces Olenna's motive. She doesn't care about Margaery being the queen, and she understands completely how twisted Joffrey was and what a foolish union it was. No other Tyrells have a motive, but Olenna certainly does...the well-being of those she loves.

The scene between Cersei and Jaime is fascinating. Our son...the acknowledgement. Cersei is as deluded and manupulative as ever, but seems to be legitimately grieving. Jaime seemed so sensible. Until his libido took over and he raped his sister next to their son's corpse. When he says she's a hateful woman, it's like he finally sees what she is. It's almost as though he decided he doesn't respect her anymore and so it's okay to take what he wants. It's a disappointing ending to the scene. But I guess we wouldn't want total redemption for Jaime, would we?

As always, the Hound and Arya are so perfect together.  The Hound can't act. He can't be anything but what he is. He has none of Arya's capability for deception.

Olenna is quite the man hater. Truly. Does she have any use for anyone male? It was amusing at first, but now it's starting to grate.  Does she dislike Loras as much as all the other men in her family?

Sam and Gilly...boring. Gilly doesn't belong at Castle Black, but is there a more demoralizing place anywhere than Mole's Town? Truly awful. Sam leaving Gilly there is unforgivable.

Stannis is getting on my nerves. What exactly is it he expects from Davos? Magic leeches? The veiled threats and the attitude make me wonder why anyone would follow Stannis. But the idea he has about the Iron Bank is interesting. Olenna and Tyrion have both discussed the dangers of the kingdom's debt to the Iron Bank. My guess is that Davos is going to ask the Iron Bank to pay for mercenaries to help Stannis take the Iron Throne in return for payment of the kingdom's debts. Where the money to pay the debts would come from is an interesting question, but I guess it's the business of politicians to make promises they can't keep. And that's what Davos is now.

The scene with Tywin and Oberyn is fascinating. First of all, I don't believe for a second that Tywin didn't consent to the Mountain killing Oberyn's sister. But he lies and is willing to hand over the Mountain in order to make peace. I'm curious whether Oberyn will actually agree to Tywin's proposal. This could go so many ways! And I hope it ends with Oberyn killing Tywin. And I wonder whether Tywin's offer is sincere. Is it some sort of trap? I guess he's too pragmatic for that. Making peace with the Dornish is a good move.  And I don't understand what Tywin meant about Dorne withstanding the dragons either.  Interesting...

Interesting that Oberyn is a "poisoner." My impression was that he was someone who would rather kill someone while looking into their eyes...in battle. He also struck me as a fair man. If he does sit on the judge's panel for Tyrion, it'll be a good thing. He won't be swayed by Tywin.I love the harpy statues at Myreen's gates. What a wonderful bit of set design. I don't know why Danaerys agreed to play their game with the champions fighting. And Myreen's champion with his lance struck me as out of place...more Westerosi than I would have expected. Daario does have swagger. 

Dany's speech was lame. And her delivery was lacking. But the collars over the walls were ingenious. It was a weird place to end the episode though. And I sincerely hope she intends to have the Unsullied attack the city.  The Unsullied need a chance to do something other than march around, dammit! 

[ChocButterfly]

Also, way to go Sam.  Not only is that still the most astoundingly boring story in the series, but he managed to put poor Gilly and her son in the only place that might be less safe than Castle Black.

I was thinking the same thing. I don't think he'll find Gilly safe next time he comes..

I'm not sure why the Thenns want the Crows to know they are coming.

They explained this. It was so the Crows would go to the village and try to defend the people, so they would leave even less guards at the Wall. They don't actually know how many men are at the Night's Watch. I'm super surprised to learn that they're only 100? Not even a 1000??

So now we're suppose to believe that Littlefinger is apparently omnipotent and omnipresent? I'd buy more that it was Twyin who poisoned Joffrey, but I don't think he'd get Littlefinger on it, specially helping Sansa getting out.

What I don't understand is why Twyin wants Oberyn on the jury. I mean, I get that he wants to bring Dorne to his side, but I don't think Oberyn cares or not to be in the jury. And how cool is that Dorne apparently kicked some Targaryan ass!? I'm really liking these Dornish! But then how did a Dornish end up marrying the Targaryan heir? They must be really powerful. I don't think Oberyn buys that Twyin didn't have anything to do with his sister's death. I hope he kills him.

Plus, it was funny, "Sorry Grey Worm, you're too important.  No, Barristan, you are highly valued.  Jorah, you are my most trusted adviser and friend...Daario, thy name is Expendable, go for it!"

Ha!This was my favorite part as well, and I knew it was coming when everybody started offering to fight. Although, I thought Dany was going to tell Ser Barristan that he was too old to be her champion. But wouldn't this whole deal had been resolved faster by having one of the Dragons just burned the Mereen dude?

The Jaimie part was...disturbing. But then again, I didn't even feel sorry for Cersei. I hate her like that. But I'm proven right, Jaimie has always been and will always be an asshole. I know a lot of people thought he was redeeming himself, but I never bought it, simply because he has never expressed remorse about pushing Bran. He's kind of sociopath like that. A handsome, charismatic sociopath.

I'm wondering if Arya will end up trying to kill the Hound or not.

Edited April 21, 2014 by ChocButterfly

[90PercentGravity]

Well, whatever goodwill Jaime got from me during his incarceration and adventure with Brienne is now gone. What the hell, Jaime? I take back everything I said about him being inherently good.

Pod gets hot and now he's gone for good? Boo. I hope he's not really gone. He's grown on me quite a lot.

The Hound also loses my goodwill.

The Tommen brainwashing begins.

I think it is pretty clear now that Littlefinger killed Joffrey. Could it really have been a diversion just to get his hands on Sansa? Ick.

[Pallas]

So Littlefinger engineered the assassination with Olenna's assistance, it would seem. He was in the Tyrells' camp in the first phase of the war, and then brokered the alliance with the Lannisters after Renly's death.  I can see why he'd want Tyrion out of the way -- two reasons, really.  But how did he plan to link Tyrion to the death without Joffrey's unwitting assistance -- did he assume Cersei would make the accusation simply based on her antipathy to Tyrion and Sansa's suspicious disappearance?

I absolutely thought Sansa was going to encounter Genry in the harbor, fulfilling shimpy's notion about them. But of course that would mean Sansa would learn that Arya survived, and that would be too satisfying.  Further putting paid to satisfaction: surprise, it's Littlefinger's boat!  (But for all we know, Genry is already aboard.  Littlefinger knows he's Robert's son, and he clearly snatches up every penny he finds on the ground.)

I loved the slave collars over the wall.  I want the horses on this show to sue for peace.

[WhiteStumbler]

I would have loved to see The Hound shifting ox carts around like an armored dray horse.

ETA: Actually, since Mr. Hound (not Ser!) is one fascinating character to me, and given how A Show treats horses, please, NOT a horse.

Edited April 21, 2014 by WhiteStumbler

[90PercentGravity]

Oh, I forgot to mention, I still find all things Stannis boring as hell. That plot line was momentarily interesting last season when Gendry was there, but otherwise it is a total snoozefest, imo. I literally rolled my eyes when they cut to him this week, because I. do. not. give. a. crap. about. Stannis. I also keep mixing him up with Bolton.

Even though Dany's story is getting a bit repetitive, I still find it compelling. The pacing could be better, but I always feel like it is going to ultimately build up to something spectacular. Jorah wagging his tail and panting when Dany called him a "friend" was great.

PS. There were clearly no jewels missing from Sansa's necklace when Littlefinger took it. I think the missing jewel from last week was a continuity error. It was the same jewel LF shattered this week. They probably shot those scenes after this one and didn't hide the damaged jewel well enough.

[AngelKitty]

So, my gut was wrong about Cersei but it really was quite a convoluted plan.

[stillshimpy]

PS. There were clearly no jewels missing from Sansa's necklace when Littlefinger took it. I think the missing jewel from last week was a continuity error. It was the same jewel LF shattered this week. They probably shot those scenes after this one and didn't hide the damaged jewel well enough.

I noticed that too, so that's the mystery of the missing jewel solved, as far as we know. 

 

 

So Littlefinger engineered the assassination with Olenna's assistance, it would seem.

Apparently not, Pallas, whereas Olenna didn't seem bummed by the whole thing and was glad that Margaery didn't have to endure wedded bliss with Joffrey, I didn't get the sense she actually had anything to do with killing Joffrey, just that she found it to be a workable, tolerable situation.  

As far as Stannis goes, jeez, now there's a strange continuity strain.  Last season ended with Stannis sparing Davos's life because he thought he would need him in the coming battle in the North.  That the war of the five kings meant nothing, blah bah blah, apparently-abandoned-for-the-moment plot.  Stannis's plot suffers from not making a ton of sense as well as having pacing by Kubrick and Wagner.  

He's still on about Gendry, but I don't quite grasp why.  If Gendry was still around, we were led to believe that Stannis and Melisandre would have sacrificed him like a goat already.  So Stannis pouting that he didn't have Gendry's handy blood to take out Tommen was a little odd.  Stannis threatening Davos every time he turns around just make Davos start to look sort of dim for being so loyal to the guy who apparently couldn't win the Cracker Jack prize on his own at this stage in the game. 

ETA: Also, Davos brilliant plan seems to be contracting with the Bank of Braavos for debt collection?  Seriously, is that what that was?  The hell? 

Edited April 21, 2014 by stillshimpy

[DirewolfPup]

Maybe last weeks episode was so awesome that anything following it would seem lame by comparison. This episode seemed very lame. The one cool bit was the Littlefinger reveal, but that happened very early on. Which reminds me...

The way LF was talking to Sansa reminds me a lot of him pseudo-coddling Ros in Season 2. Then I got the worst plot idea ever. Could LF try to make Sansa one of his prostitutes? or his own personal mistress/concubine? ahhh I hate myself for saying that out loud. A Show better not listen to me and take that idea. A Show would be evil.

Jamie is a douche. I never really bought his redemption arc. Though I never thought he would be this bad this soon. The rape thing really squeaked me out. I'd hope he wouldn't go that far. In season 1, Jamie & Cersei had the whole "war for Cersei's c***" conversation where he man-handled her, and she liked it. She said it comforted her to know he'd kill everyone for her. Maybe this manly, forced dominance thing is part of their foreplay.

The Arya/Hound situation is getting to the levels of Sam/Gilly and Jon Snore. Something needs to happen with those two.

Oh yay. We get more Jon Snow. We're staying in Castle Black. No, wait! Back to Crasters <bangs head on wall>

[arry the orphan]

Littlefinger said that he had the necklace made a few weeks ago and then he crushed the jewels (quite sure actual gemstones would not shatter so easily). So that pretty much confirmed to me the theory that it was Olenna who poisened Joffrey. It also looks like a Tommen/Margary wedding is on. So I wonder if Tywin was in on the plan to get rid off Joffrey. Tyrion said, that Tywin never misses a chance to take advantage of a family tragedy.

 

 

And how cool is that Dorne apparently kicked some Targaryan ass!? I'm really liking these Dornish! But then how did a Dornish end up marrying the Targaryan heir? They must be really powerful.

Wasn't Tywin Hand of the King during the reign of the Mad King? Perhaps he arranged the marriage between Rhaegar and Oberyns sister in an attempt to bring Dorne into the fold. Tywin doesn't seem to be a very good marriage broker.

Edited April 21, 2014 by arry the orphan

[stillshimpy]

Seriously, Cersei was saying "no" and "stop" etc.  There's no question about lack of consent there.  Jaime raped Cersei, that wasn't some twisted form of foreplay.  He jumped off redemption highway like someone blowing their diet by eating the entire cheesecake the contents of the fridge, four pizzas with everything and a bag of donuts as a chaser.  

The way LF was talking to Sansa reminds me a lot of him pseudo-coddling Ros in Season 2. Then I got the worst plot idea ever. Could LF try to make Sansa one of his prostitutes? or his own personal mistress/concubine? ahhh I hate myself for saying that out loud. A Show better not listen to me and take that idea. A Show would be evil.

I'm assuming that he wants to marry Sansa, actually.  Makes more sense than trying to wed Crazypants Lyssa Arryn with all her demented charm.  Sansa's marriage was unconsummated, so I'm assuming freaking Littlefinger knows that.  Ugh.  Poor Sansa. 

I'm assuming that Joffrey's assassination will join the ranks of "What the fuck, who sent that idiot to kill Bran in has coma-near-deathbed with Knifey: the world's most distinctive knife?"  in the "shit they aren't ever going to fully define for us. so that we can all go mad together."  

Olenna did not confirm, nor deny that she was involved.  Littlefinger similarly did not confirm nor deny.  

A Show gets a little tedious with that stuff.  Who poisoned Jon Arryn? We're not sure.  Who sent the assassin after Bran?  We're not sure.  Who actually killed Joffrey?  Well out of a cast of thousands, apparently it was one of them, with Littlefinger being pretty directly involved.  

I'd feel worse for Dontos's punctured skull, if it weren't for the fact that he pretty much had that coming. 

[DirewolfPup]

I'm not denying the rape aspects. I'm merely hoping that there's more to what we saw. Of all Cersei/Jamie encounters we've seen, we got:

1. Jamie and Cersei in the tower. Pushing Bran out the window.
2. Jamie physically threatening Cersei, almost choking her and her getting wooed by that.
3. This scene this week.

I'm trying to say, their sex life has never been normal, so maybe. just maybe. There's more than meets the eye. That's all. I'm not saying "it's rape and Cersei deserved it" like I've seen. That's pretty despicable even for this evil, fictitious character.

BTW, my whole spitball about how Dontos proves that Sansa is the only good person in this story and that good is sometimes rewarded. Yeah. I feel like an idiot right about now.

I don't think the Tyrells did it. I'm going to assume Littlefinger did killed Joffrey (chaos is a ladder) and is working alone.

Edit: Changed "it" to "killed Joffrey"

Edited April 21, 2014 by DirewolfPup

[MrMicrophone]

Jamie has a new tagline:

"Heaven has no rage like love to hatred turned."

[Pallas]

QUOTE

So Littlefinger engineered the assassination with Olenna's assistance, it would seem.

Apparently not, Pallas, whereas Olenna didn't seem bummed by the whole thing and was glad that Margaery didn't have to endure wedded bliss with Joffrey, I didn't get the sense she actually had anything to do with killing Joffrey, just that she found it to be a workable, tolerable situation. -- stillshimpy

I probably fell for both A Show's liberal hints about Olenna, and the forensic evidence so promptly uploaded here.  I'd love to get away this spring -- sign me up for the Ned Stark Experience in King's Landing, okay?  

You're right, shimpy, Olenna's post-show analysis session with Margaery suggests only that she has kept her head about her, and isn't loathe to look on the bright side of Margaery's being spared.  I still wonder if Olenna was involved because it seems to be Littlefinger's way to pull in higher-ranking co-conspirators who he can seem to be serving while also setting up, further down the line. He plots alone but doesn't usually work alone. And then still, the question of what poisoned Joffrey, and how the poison made its way to him.  

Who got the poison into his pie or his wine?  Poisoning by wine happened only after he cut the pie: he drank from his goblet, poured by Tyrion from the carafe in front of Cersei and Tywin, before he cut the pie and was unaffected. (Sorry, doves: sucks to be part of any entertainment in the court of King Joffrey.)  If by wine, someone got to it during the pie-cutting: Olenna, or perhaps a waiter.  If by pie, anyone with access to the kitchen.  But since Margarey was clearly not in the plot, what a risk that she not take or be fed a bite herself!  Would Olenna run that risk?  I think not.  

I don't think the entire caper was a diversion to spring Sansa, since it seems easier for Dontos to escape with her if the entire city isn't in lockdown.  Littlefinger seems to have wanted her implicated -- to increase her dependence on him, and/or implicate Tyrion. On the other hand, I suppose he might have assessed Sansa expertly enough to realize that absolutely nothing but the ongoing assassination of a King -- happening right before her eyes -- would jar her into flight.  He was certainly astute in his choice of set-up man, appealing to Sansa's need to feel she had done at least one good deed of consequence in the past two years.  

And in light of this, now I wonder about Shae.  I do think she may originally have been hired to spy on Tyrion, but not by Tywin.  At the time Bronn procured her for Tyrion in the Lannister camp, Littlefinger was attached to the Renly/Tyrell team.  What if Shae were originally a Littlefinger spy sent into the Lannister camp?  

[stillshimpy]

I'm trying to say, their sex life has never been normal

Well that's a given.  They're twins.  Normal has no place here and you know, I'm usually not one to definitively draw a line, but Jaime prefaced all of that with a bunch of stuff that sounded like, "Wow, why do I have to love you? I hate your guts, you evil creature."  and then forced her to the floor amid cries of "No" and "stop".  Seriously, that's not "well, maybe it is just how they function" because everything about their particular relationship is sick and twisted, but the sick-and-twisted (even by the standards of that world their relationship is sick-and-twisted) doesn't in anyway preclude rape.  No matter how they might parse it, what the show just depicted is textbook rape. 

I get that the actor is good looking and the show and fictional world depicted itself has a strange attitude toward rape, like it's just something to be expected. Jaime himself actually told Brienne to just let Bolton's guys rape her, since it was only to be expected.  Like hayfever.  Sneezing.  Stomach discomfort.  Rape.  All of these things happen within that world with equal amounts of importance being given to them, apparently.  But even if they function in some "Well, Jaime regularly rapes Cersei" it doesn't alter what it is. 

Edited April 21, 2014 by stillshimpy

[Pallas]

For sure it was rape and I think Snowblack nailed it:

When he says she's a hateful woman, it's like he finally sees what she is. It's almost as though he decided he doesn't respect her anymore and so it's okay to take what he wants.

To that I'd add, a rape by a hollow man against his lover of 20 years or so, as he understands that she is quitting him.  Jaime proposed hate-fucking and when Cersei said no, ploughed on into hate-rape as Cersei tried other defenses: "Not here" and "It's wrong."   He was punishing her for loving her, and for her leaving him.

[izabella]

That was a disappointing episode for me.  It cleared up nothing about Joffrey's death.  All we learned was that Littlefinger paid Dontos to befriend Sansa so she'd trust him when he offered to whisk her out of KL.  I supposed LF might have had something to do with Joffrey's death to create a diversion so Sansa could get away, but he didn't admit to it, and there's still the question of how it could have been done.  Or are we supposed to handwave the how, and just assume some behind the scenes LF shenanigans to get the poison to Joffrey?

I'm less inclined now to believe Olenna had anything to do with it.  Sure, I suppose she could have been in cahoots with LF, but she of the "don't speak ill of Joffrey even if it's just the two of us here" mindframe isn't likely to trust LF with a plot to kill the King.

And then we have a literal pissing contest at Meereen, rapey Jamie, slaughtering Wildlings (with cannibalism!), thieving and lying Hound, sad parting for Pod and Tyrion, and Stupid Sam believing Gilly would be safe "cleaning and cooking" for a whorehouse.

Tywin was the only thing that saved this episode for me.  He was masterful with Tommen, and slipped him away from Cersei right under her nose.

[DirewolfPup]

This episode should have just been titled: Everyone's a Shit

The Hound steals from someone who housed and fed them. Sam carts Gilly to a whore house. Ygritte learned nothing from Jon Snow. Cersei wants Tyrion murdered before his trial. Jamie's a spiteful rapist. Tyrion's in prision. Bronn's in prision. Dontos is a lying sack of crap. LF is being his manipulative self. Tywin gets even more control with Tommen. Now, Oberon might side with Tywin & Co. Wow, buddy. You stood up to those murdering Lannisters for 2.5 whole episodes. Congrats...

My impromptu list of characters with zero redeeming qualities: Littlefinger & Thenns

[MrMicrophone]

Dire,

The Boltons have to go on The List of Irredeemable People.

[ChocButterfly]

The way LF was talking to Sansa reminds me a lot of him pseudo-coddling Ros in Season 2. Then I got the worst plot idea ever. Could LF try to make Sansa one of his prostitutes? or his own personal mistress/concubine? ahhh I hate myself for saying that out loud.

Oh God, that's what I've always feared about Sansa running away with Littlefinger! I don't know which one scares me most, what Joffrey could've done to Sansa or what LF could do to Sansa. Specially now, since nobody knows she's with him. He could do to her whatever he pleases! :S

It doesn't seem like Olynna had anything to do with the poisoning. She wouldn't trust Littlefinger in the first place. You know, I was feeling sorry for Dontos when LF shot him, then it turned out not even the necklace part was real and the dude was more worried about his gold than helping Sansa! Jerk, good riddance!

Interesting that Oberyn is a "poisoner." My impression was that he was someone who would rather kill someone while looking into their eyes...in battle.

Yeah, I also found that weird. It doesn't seem to be Oberyn's style, yet he's an expert of Poisons? Weird.

Why, why did they have to change the actor that plays Tommen for an even older boy?? He looks so tall that he seems stupid, not innocent or naive, like they are pretending him to be. Plus, it's ridiculous that this teenage boy is asking about the "birds and the bees". He's as tall as Cersei!

[stillshimpy]

This episode should have just been titled: Everyone's a Shit

Gods, that's the truth, isn't it?  I went from gritting out (aloud), "Sansa, get in that fucking boat, for god's sake!" to "Oh it's Littlefinger.  Get off that fucking boat Sansa!!" with a quickness.  Even the one time poor Sansa displays survival instincts above those of a lemming, it was likely the wrong move.  I mean, Littlefinger's hug was so slime-coated I nearly slid off my own couch at home.  

Meanwhile my husband's over there laughing his ass off saying, "Congratulations! That's much worse."  because oh my god, nothing good ever happens on this show.  That's not out of the frying pan material, that's "Out of the situation where, at best, Cersei will have her turned into a pin cushion (only the pins will be knives), into the ....Jesus Christ, it's Littlefinger?  Drown yourself, now!!!"  I mean...eek.  For real, as far as I know, Littelfinger doesn't even have sex, so god knows what he plans to do with poor Sansa.  But here's a guess: It will be distressing on heretofore undreamed of levels. 

 

 

slaughtering Wildlings (with cannibalism!),

Well we saw someone express something akin to affection for their child "Your mother can boil a potato!" said with affection was some serious Spud Foreshadowing of Doom.  Parental affection for a seemingly happy child is a death knell on this show.  Also, I am now grading on a disturbing curve for cannibals: "Well, at least he's not going to eat your living ma and pa, grubby child, flee anyway." 

 

 

thieving and lying Hound

See and I thought Arya's Big Assassin Rehabilitation Program was showing progress:  He only beat the man about the head and face, while taking all his worldly goods, leaving them helpless, to starve rather than making kabobs out of either.  Progress! 

 

 

Stupid Sam believing Gilly would be safe "cleaning and cooking" for a whorehouse.

Sam certainly had his portion of moron flakes there and the Papa Inquiring Prostitute "Where's the Daddy?" apparently went to the Wiley Bumpkin School of Sinister Hissing.  Way to hit the back rows, Day Player.  

Edited April 21, 2014 by stillshimpy

[janjan]

The Redemption Train goes off the rails:

• Jaime:   You're bad.
• Hound:  You've gone from realist to cynic.
• Ygritte:  Oww that was cold. What did Jon ever see in you anyway?
• Dontos: Mommy's necklace, huh. Die, you fucker.
• Oberyn: If you vote to convict Tyrion, you're not cute anymore.
• Dany:    You're turning mean, and what's worse, boring.  Almost as boring as . . .
• . . . Stannis:  Do something or get off the show already.

One car of Train Redemption managed to stay on track, but is careening wildly into the unknown:

• Pod:        You're the one who will eventually save Tyrion, right?
• Sam:       Your heart's in the right place, but your risk-assessment skills need work.
• Tommen: Shape up - young is no excuse for dumb.

I'll have to rewatrch to be sure, but when Oberyn got up from the fornicating foursome to greet the newly white-bearded Tywin, didn't he already have his pants on?

What does Littlefinger want with Sansa?

 

[MrMicrophone]

What does Littlefinger always want? Power. Sansa is the key to the North, whomever marries her becomes Lord of the North.

And unlike Tyrion the Lannister, if anyone else marries her the North is not likely to hold a grudge.

[abelard]

Oh man, I didn't think there was a fate for Sansa worse than being stuck in KL forever and forever, and then Littlefinger literally grabbed hold of her and I smacked my forehead.  Yup, as mr. shimpy said, That's worse!!  I remember in S2, when Joffrey agreed to marry Margery instead of Sansa, I think shimpy wrote that she counted the seconds in between Sansa's smile of extreme relief and LF sidling slimily up to her.  It was like 1.5 seconds.  I think *my* relief that Sansa boarded that ship lasted about 0.5 seconds, before I saw that it was LF that had her, and had engineered her entire escape.  BLECH!!!!!!

I now think that LF was the assassin (or the money and will behind the poisoners in the kitchen, doesn't matter who specifically did it), and that his motive was primarily to get Sansa.  Now all his talk (during Roz's infamous sexposition audition for the brothel) about loving Cat all his life makes sense.  He's always been obsessed with Cat, and now that she's gone, he'll try to live out all his fantasies with her daughter, like how Yeats proposed to Maud Gonne's daughter.  HOWEVER, I think he has to keep his possession with Sansa a secret, b/c if the Lannisters know that he has her, they'll break with him in a jiffy.  I think LF *has* to marry Crazy Lysa, but somehow keep Sansa as his prisoner, hidden away or something?  Man, my imagination is getting more gothic by the minute.  

I don't think Olenna Tyrell had anything to do with the plot, b/c as someone pointed out above, if the wine or pie was poisoned, she couldn't absolutely guarantee that Margery wouldn't be poisoned alongside Joffrey, and it is obvious to me that *Margery* had no foreknowledge (so there was no conspiracy between Olenna and Margery beforehead).  So it wasn't Olenna.  It was LF all the way, who wouldn't give two hoots if Margery died as collateral damage.  

By the way Tywin was talking to Tommen about the birds and the bees, I'm thinking that Margery is going to get her third chance at being THE queen.  I got the feeling she'll be wedded to 11-year-old Tommen very soon.  But since all of her husbands meet truly horrible fates within hours or days of marrying her, what fresh hell will meet Tommen?

Oh and one more thing about the necklace from Dontos: now I think that Olenna's fiddling with Sansa's necklace (at the reception) was Olenna realizing that the necklace was a piece of garbage, a fake.  Olenna established early in ep 1 that she knows the value of gold and jewels by sight, and so she would have known pretty quickly that what Sansa was wearing was worthless paste.  But I don't think anything will come of this, I just think this is why Olenna was remarking (silently, to herself) on the necklace, and covertly "inspecting" it a bit, like she was surprised that Sansa or Tyrion would be fooled by a piece of costume jewelry and wear it to such an important event.

Edited April 21, 2014 by abelard

[izabella]

I'll have to rewatrch to be sure, but when Oberyn got up from the fornicating foursome to greet the newly white-bearded Tywin, didn't he already have his pants on?

He did have his pants on, janjan - I noticed the same thing and wondered how that happened.

. . . Stannis:  Do something or get off the show already.

I'm mad at Stannis.  The last we saw of him the previous season, Melissandre told him the War for the Iron Throne didn't matter anymore and they needed to - quick! - head for the Wall.  And now, they're burning people at the stake, Stannis is still busy plotting how to take the Iron Throne, and they don't appear to be on the way to anything, much less the Wall.

[Isazouzi]

 

PS. There were clearly no jewels missing from Sansa's necklace when Littlefinger took it. I think the missing jewel from last week was a continuity error. It was the same jewel LF shattered this week. They probably shot those scenes after this one and didn't hide the damaged jewel well enough.

I noticed that too, so that's the mystery of the missing jewel solved, as far as we know.

Watch it again if you can, because the gem IS still missing. There's a close up of the necklace just before Littlefinger smashes it. You have to pause the image to see it. So I stick to my (and others') theory that Olenna took it. If it's true that Littlefinger had the necklace made a few weeks before, then it could mean that Olenna and Littlefinger are in cahoots and she somehow used the gem to poison Joffrey (which Margery is unaware of). His involvement doesn't surprise me, since chaos is his way to move up in this world. But dude gives me the creeps. I hope Olenna knows what she's doing.

I must be a horrible person, because Jaimie raping Cersei doesn't make me despise him at all.

The scenes with Dany are repetitive, but it always feels like they're building up to something huge. I don't know how many cities she still has to free but for some reason, I think it's actually the last one and I can't wait to see her move on to the next phase. She's going to need an awful lot of boats to get everyone to Westeros. And I thought her speech was fine and the delivery OK. It can't be easy to do, yelling in a made up language, and I think she's doing a good job of it.

I laughed my head off when she was picking her champion. The other dude kept yelling stuff in the background and no one was paying him attention.

Just before watching the episode, I had a conversation about how we always see naked women but no naked dudes. So thank you Oberyn, for swinging both ways. Dorne seems more and more like an awesome place. They don't look down on bastards, they're bisexuals and they can fight dragons? Everyone should go there! Plus it's south, so hey, it's the way to go anyway.

Also, I hope Tywin doesn't die anytime soon because he's a terrific character and the actor is spectacular.

 

He did have his pants on, janjan - I noticed the same thing and wondered how that happened.

Sadly he had his pants on during the whole scene. The other dude was naked, not Oberyn.

Edited April 21, 2014 by Isazouzi

[MrMicrophone]

In this world, "pretend" rape may actually be what turns Jamie and Cersei on.

Ah, well, we'll know the next time we see them in the same room together -- if Jamie actually hurt Cersei (more mentally than physically), we'll know. She's not the type to be quiet about such an outrage.

Assuming Jamie doesn't just leave KL before the next episode (ala Thorne).

[DirewolfPup]

Dire,

The Boltons have to go on The List of Irredeemable People.

You are 100% correct.

List of Irredeemable People: Littlefinger, Thenns, The Boltons, Ramsey Snow, and Walder Frey for good measure.

I was going to add Balon Greyjoy to the list, but then I remembered that he supported Yara even after Theon's initial return. In this world, you have to give props to someone who values their daughter higher than their living son.

Edited April 21, 2014 by DirewolfPup

[janjan]

Iza: we always see naked women but no naked dudes.

Latest count:

• Hodor and his prosthetic (Does that count?)
• Theon in an early scene with Roz
• The wine merchant / assassin being towed behind a horse.
• The champion of [city too boring to remember its name], peeing. (From behind, but still visible.)

Not that I'm counting.

[WhiteStumbler]

Almost everybody went backwards!

Sam became Useless Sam (again).

Stannis forgot about the SOS from Castle Black and is back to threatening Davos.

Jaime raped his sister in the Sept next to the cold corpse of their incest son. What a sentence.

Ygritte Everdeen used to be a fun (if slightly dangerous) love interest with a cute catch phrase. Now back to cold blooded killer.

The Hound is now a thief who breaks Guestrights (the salt and bread scene at the start of the Red Wedding makes a lot more sense now).

Sansa is in a worse situation. At least arguably.

Tyrion is apparently Pod-less. And no Bronn. Yikes!

Cersei had to endure Tywin ripping her son to pieces in front of her. And a bit of a rape.

Littlefinger turned up like a bad penny.

Tommen now has Gramps as his tutor.

Oberyn had his orgy interrupted.

Dontos turned out to be at least a partial asshat.

The only ones whose situations improved were Davos and (I would argue) Dany. It was wonderful to have the same realization that Davos did at the same time. That was cool. And Dany has been reducing her military footprint every step - first dragon + Unsullied, then 3 badass fighters to open the gates for the Unsullied, now she is asking the slaves to save themselves. I still think it is slow going, but I call it progress.

stillshimpy: Thanks for Spud Foreshadowing of Doom. Brilliant!!

[90PercentGravity]

Latest count:

    Hodor and his prosthetic (Does that count?)

    Theon in an early scene with Roz

    The wine merchant / assassin being towed behind a horse.

    The champion of [city too boring to remember its name], peeing. (From behind, but still visible.)

Not that I'm counting.

We also got Jaime's sack, though Brienne got a much better view.

[abelard]

 

It was wonderful to have the same realization that Davos did at the same time. That was cool. 

White Stumbler, what realization was this?  

[North Star]

Olenna did not confirm, nor deny that she was involved.  Littlefinger similarly did not confirm nor deny. 

Littlefinger pretty much confirmed his involvement, since he knew Joffrey was dead when Sansa got there, despite nobody telling him that.  Unless he's got a cell phone on that boat.

[WhiteStumbler]

Abelard: That the Iron Bank of Bravos could be a way to raise money to rent sellswords that could put Stannis on the throne. Davos has no way of knowing that the Iron Throne owes all that $$$ to the Iron Bank, but he could still try to see if they will make that loan. I'll bet they do.

I want the book that Davos was reading.

[Pallas]

White Stumbler, what realization was this?

The Bank of Braavos: Leeches for Tomorrow

[arry the orphan]

Braavos is getting a lot of shout-outs lately. Arya, Olenna, Davos, etc...I believe Davos even talked about Syrio Forel (almost beheaded by the First Sword of Braavos)

[abelard]

Abelard: That the Iron Bank of Bravos could be a way to raise money to rent sellswords that could put Stannis on the throne. Davos has no way of knowing that the Iron Throne owes all that $$$ to the Iron Bank, but he could still try to see if they will make that loan. I'll bet they do.

I want the book that Davos was reading.

Okay, so Davos intends to go to the Iron Bank and ask for a loan (for renting sellswords) and then *we* know that the Iron Bank is maybe not too in love with the Lannisters right now, so will give Davos/Stannis that loan?  (I guess that's what Olenna Tyrell is always going on about in terms of the Lannisters needing the Tyrells, right? -- that they need their money b/c of the loans, or something?  I thought that LF told Ned in S1 that the Iron Throne owed a pigsh*t ton of money to the Lannisters.  But the Lannisters are now in debt themselves?)

That book that Davos was reading was cool if only to establish that First Sword of Braavos is really something.  It's like Awesomest Swordfighter in the World.  So Syrio Forel must have been, what, a disgraced First Sword, but nevertheless, someone whose prowess got him to that lofty position once upon a time.  (I only suggest he was "disgraced" in Braavos b/c why else would he have gone to Westeros?  But maybe also First Swords can age out of the position?  Though Syrio seemed quite fit, if not at his prime then very close to it).

Braavos is getting a lot of shout-outs lately. Arya, Olenna, Davos, etc...I believe Davos even talked about Syrio Forel (almost beheaded by the First Sword of Braavos

 

I was super-hoping that Davos was talking about Syrio right then.  It would have been awesome if he'd said the name.

Didn't the Hound also say something about Braavos?  Wasn't the Hound maybe talking about going there with the ransom money he thinks he will get for Arya (and that's when Arya said she'd like to see it someday, she has friends there)?

Btw, what if Arya and Sansa are about to meet up?  I know, I know, it's evidently too much to hope for that any Starks will ever see each other ever again.  But if the Hound gets Arya to the Eyrie, I think that is where LF is taking Sansa, also...

[izabella]

Btw, what if Arya and Sansa are about to meet up?  I know, I know, it's evidently too much to hope for that any Starks will ever see each other ever again.  But if the Hound gets Arya to the Eyrie, I think that is where LF is taking Sansa, also...

Well, considering what happened the last time Arya got close to being reunited with her family, it might be in Sansa's best interests if that didn't happen.  Not that it was Arya's fault, but Arya seems like PigPen from Snoopy - a dirty black cloud follows her everywhere.

Arya never much liked Sansa, so I wonder if she'd even be happy to meet up with her anyway.  Maybe.  She'd probably find a way blame Sansa for something, so I don't see it as necessarily being a happy reunion.  I don't much like Arya when it comes to her relationship with Sansa, so my view is less than optimistic for them.

Edited April 21, 2014 by izabella

[WhiteStumbler]

Abelard: "But the Lannisters are now in debt themselves?"

That is what Tyrion discovered last season after being named Master of Coin and looking at Littlefinger's brothel books. 'The Iron Band lends you money and, if you can't pay it back, they fund your enemies' is the way I remember it.

[stillshimpy]

(I guess that's what Olenna Tyrell is always going on about in terms of the Lannisters needing the Tyrells, right? -- that they need their money b/c of the loans, or something?  I thought that LF told Ned in S1 that the Iron Throne owed a pigsh*t ton of money to the Lannisters.  But the Lannisters are now in debt themselves?)

Right and the Tyrells have basically become the new Lannisters (the House with Money to loan) so it goes something like this The Tyrells are now to the Lannisters, what the Lannisters were to the Baratheon crown.  

Arya never much liked Sansa, so I wonder if she'd even be happy to meet up with her anyway.  Maybe.  She'd probably find a way blame Sansa for something, so I don't see it as necessarily being a happy reunion.  I don't much like Arya when it comes to her relationship with Sansa, so my view is less than optimistic for them.

Oh gawd, it didn't occur to me that Arya and Sansa are allegedly headed toward the same place.  Yeah, I somehow don't think they'll ever see each other again, but then every week the Eyrie doesn't make it into the opening credits, I give a small cheer. That makes me very hopeful that I won't have to see Lyssa again for a while.  I'd vote for "ever again".   

Didn't the Hound also say something about Braavos?  Wasn't the Hound maybe talking about going there with the ransom money he thinks he will get for Arya (and that's when Arya said she'd like to see it someday, she has friends there)?

Yes, he said he could be a sell-sword there.  

Tywin perplexed me slightly, he seemed to have no interest in whodunit when it came to Joffrey.  I don't entirely blame him, Tommen would be the much better King from Tywin's perspective, but wow did he ever take that in stride.  It's not just the "Okay, so Joffrey sucked, who would mourn?" it's the idea that anyone would kill a Lannister that I thought would freak him out. Yes, yes, I know...Joffrey was a Baratheon, but you know what I mean. 

[WhiteStumbler]

stillshimpy: His reaction IS weird, esp. since Tywin essentially went to war over Tyrion. I would expect a royal assassination (with a family member accused as the perp) would make House Lannister appear even more vulnerable in the 7K.

[RadiantAerynSun]

The Hound said he might cross the narrow sea and become a sellsword, maybe for the Second Sons (Daario's people). Speaking of which, we see loads of unsullied lined up, but not so much the Second Sons other than Daario? Are they tagging along at the rear or what? Keeping the peace in newly liberated cities?

I was a little puzzled by Davos' Eurkea moment myself. But I guess the idea of raising money through a loan from the Bank of Braavos in order to defeat the Lannisters in retaliation for not repaying their debts makes sense.  I guess they'd still have to hire sellswords which Stannis didn't seem thrilled with.

[DirewolfPup]

In Episode 2, we barely saw a reaction out of Tywin. He was all boisterous and yelling at the beginning of this episode, but that was after Joffrey died. This looks horrible for the Lannisters. One Lanny kills the king Lanny. Tywin takes it in stride. Makes me suspect that he did have something to do with it. Or perhaps he's confident that Tyrion would get off on the charges of nephew-side. Would Oberyon take his side? Would the Tyrell guy just go with whatever? I have a feeling Tyrion will be in that cell for a long time.

Edited April 21, 2014 by DirewolfPup

[Pallas]

I would expect a royal assassination (with a family member accused as the perp) would make House Lannister appear even more vulnerable in the 7K.

But according to Tywin's Westerosi Kings sept lecture, it wouldn't be the first time.  We are not surprised.  He seems to feel he has the situation well in control.  I like that I really have no idea if

1. Tywin believes Tyrion was the assassin
2. If not -- I think not --  whether Tywin would be willing to railroad Tyrion straight into a public execution
3. Tywin is willing to allow the actual poisoner to remain undiscovered.

I suppose I think Tywin has in mind swift public justice against Tyrion, private scouting out of the actual assassin.  I'd love him to surprise me by giving a shit whether Tyrion was involved, if only to protect the remaining members of his family.

[stillshimpy]

Tywin's reaction was just strange.  He seemed to question Oberyn's knowledge of poison with some kind of "maybe you were involved" type of insinuation, so he seems far from convinced that Tryion did it (which speaks well of his brain, only soaked Cersei would really buy that "somehow, Tyrion was able to predict that Joffrey would freak out -- because it was Joffrey -- and attempt to humiliate Tyrion by forcing him to be his cup bearer, thereby giving access to Joffrey's wine..." )  

Tywin has no love for Tyrion (and that's an understatement), but he seems remarkably chill about Joffrey's assassination and not in that "cooler heads will prevail" type of way where he's trying to put a good face on it for the good of the Kingdom.  He was really completely unruffled in the scene with Joffrey's body, to the extent that he just moves on to grooming Tommen without much pause.  

I didn't expect regret or tears, but I thought he'd be a tad more "Find whoever did this and bring them to me now.  I will have their head, their hides and all of their wealth beyond that."