S04.E03: Breaker Of Chains 2014.04.20

[izabella]

When Tywin was talking with Oberyn, I kinda got the impression that Tywin does not think Tyrion poisoned Joff.  He talked about why he believed that Oberyn didn't poison Joff, so it seemed like he was considering other possibilities besides Tyrion.

eta:  Ah, I see shimpy had the same thought.

Edited April 21, 2014 by izabella

[janjan]

Davos seeks a loan from the Iron Bank of Braavos -- several posters

Ah, but didn't that conversation he was having with Shireen emphasize that Davos was a smuggler, and what's a smuggler and what's a pirate? So he goes to find his buddy the pirate, they waylay one of those Braavos barges full of gold, and Davos smuggles the proceeds ashore to Stannis.

If he had any smarts, he would dump the Grammar Nazi, keep the gold himself to buy a place somewhere safe, like Dorne or the Summer Islands, adopt Shireen to replace his lost son, hire the best plastic surgeon in Essos for her, and live happily ever after.

[WhiteStumbler]

janjan: "and live happily ever after."

What show are you watching? ;-)

I like the IBB Heist scenario. Davos does know Saladsomething Sahn the pirate. The rest of the scenario is a stretch. Davos is devoted to Stannis and won't leave him. A parallel to how Jorah feels about Dany (w/o the sexual overtones).

Two notes about the Opening Credits. I'm sure it has been mentioned, but I just caught the fact that Dragonstone looks exactly like a dragon, with the part facing the sea as the head, the main keep as the body with clearly curved spine, and the castle walls forming the outline of dragon wings. Whoa.

Speaking of Summer Isles, when the credits this season track from the Wall to Danylandia, the shot tracks south along the length of Westeros before showing a bunch of islands that seem to stretch across the Narrow Sea. Then the POV shifts to the east to show the slave cities. Spec: Could they be the Summer Isles? Or maybe Dorne is mostly or partly islands, and THAT is how they resisted the Targ conquest? Dany's dragons didn't mind water, but fire-based flying weapons platforms might not be as effective against islands?

I hope The Hound finds that map shop STAT. I have a few purchases to make.

[Pallas]

So he goes to find his buddy the pirate, they waylay one of those Braavos barges full of gold, and Davos smuggles the proceeds ashore to Stannis.

So the letter allegedly from Stannis would be to contract for the gold on loan, gold that Davos and the pirate would then steal for Stannis on its way to Stannis? That's a bold plan, and certainly a lot more interesting than anything else pertaining to Stannis.  

ETA, re WhiteStumbler's post above: Danylandia!  Forever more it is.  

Edited April 21, 2014 by Pallas

[abelard]

HEIST!!  HEIST!!!!  I love the spec that somehow Davos will meet up again with his pirate pal, and smuggle/pirate (smirate?  puggle?) together.  However, I guess I doubt this will happen with the Iron Bank b/c wouldn't that put Stannis in the Iron Bank's crosshairs?  Tywin freaking Lannister seems afraid of what the Iron Bank will do if he defaults, I am thinking that falling out of the IBB's good graces is not a smart tactic for any king.

Btw thanks to all above who clarified the money situation with Lannisters, Tyrells, and IBB.  I can see why the Tyrells would be richer than the Lannisters at this point.  The Tyrells have had the least expenditure to date.  They gave their army to Renley but Renley never actually used it.  When Renley died at Smoke Baby's hands, most of his bannerman went over to Stannis's side but not the Tyrells.  Then, the Tyrell army didn't do anything until the very end of Blackwater, so few men lost there, I'm sure.  The Lannisters otoh fought open war against Robb (in the midlands or wherever those areas were end of S1 through early S2) and Stannis (Blackwater Bay).  The Lannisters also were already paying for the Crown's expenses during Robert's reign, and continued through Joffrey, when expenses probably multiplied tenfold due to war.  So, Lannisters and Tyrells were probably on pretty equal footing before the war, Tyrells being the slightly less rich house, and now, just by virtue of not having spent every last gold dragon they had, the Tyrells are much much richer.

Two notes about the Opening Credits. I'm sure it has been mentioned, but I just caught the fact that Dragonstone looks exactly like a dragon, with the part facing the sea as the head, the main keep as the body with clearly curved spine, and the castle walls forming the outline of dragon wings. Whoa.

This is super, super cool and will have to check it during a rewatch.

 ETA: Thanks also to all who clarified what The Hound said about Braavos, sellswording (almost typed "swellswording," which sounds awesome like a musical theatre lyric), and the Second Sons.  I can't even imagine a more different Second Son from Dario than the Hound.  

Edited April 21, 2014 by abelard

[janjan]

... Davos will meet up again with his pirate pal, and smuggle/pirate (smirate?  puggle?) together.  However, I guess I doubt this will happen with the Iron Bank b/c wouldn't that put Stannis in the Iron Bank's crosshairs? - Abelard

The IBB wouldn't know that the pugglers are associated with Stannis. Although they might get suspicious at Stennis's sudden wealth. "Gee, IBB, I found it lying around. Can I keep it?" Maybe a finder's fee would buy enough sellswords.

[abelard]

The IBB wouldn't know that the pugglers are associated with Stannis. 

Ah, okay, then yes, puggling would make some sense in this scenario.  If the heist could not be traced back to them (Stannis/Davos/pirate pal).

Edited April 21, 2014 by abelard

[Pallas]

So, the letter to the bank?  That is just to get the gold onto the boats and headed to Dragonstone?   And removing any need for Stannis to pay back a loan he seemingly never received?  I love that the dashing First Sword of Braavos looks to be an Enforcer, by any other name: less D'Artagnan, more Luca Brasi. 

[stillshimpy]

So, the letter to the bank?  That is just to get the gold onto the boats and headed to Dragonstone?   And removing any need for Stannis to pay back a loan he seemingly never received?  I love that the dashing First Sword of Braavos looks to be an Enforcer, by any other name: less D'Artagnan, more Luca Brasi.

Wow, that's a good point.  I guess I didn't think of it that way, but you're right. My impression from Syrio wasn't that he was The First Sword of Bravos because he'd "made his bones" in Bravos, or something.  I did have a far more romanticized, gallant impression than what Davvos.(<---  what the...?  I know I screw around with the spelling of Davos's name for kicks, but that sounds like Ensign Chekov just leapt into the fray total accident, but I'm leaving it because now I have dueling funny accents in my head)  talks about. 

I've noticed that in this story though.  I know that history is generally written by the victors and all that, but truthfully, it just varies by region, I suppose.  The angle from which something is viewed being pretty wholly defining.  Or the age-old "perception is reality" , so that when Robert's talks about the Rebellion, there is no doubt in his mind that Lyanna was kidnapped.  When Oberyn talks about Rhaegar Targaryen, he's supposed to be so wonderful and special...but he abandoned his wife (rather than anything that made him sound as crazy as anything Robert ever said).  

When Syrio talked about being the First Sword of Bravos I didn't envision a structure that included a bag man (the first purse of Bravos!) or a cleaner (The First Paver of Bravos!) or the guy who cooks the books (First...yeah, no that's going to be pretty much the same title, I guess ;-) ).  

Edited April 21, 2014 by stillshimpy

[WhiteStumbler]

I also note that Syrio was, I believe, "First Sword to the Sealord of Braavos". Not sure if the Sealord is the political leader of Braavos, head of the navy, or what. Do we know if Braavos is a city or country?

[justawatcher]

Shae got on a boat and no one saw her leave. Littlefinger's boat was parked out in the harbor. Did Bronn put Shae on Littlefinger's boat? If so, then I have hope Sansa just might make it through this.

[abelard]

Shae got on a boat and no one saw her leave. Littlefinger's boat was parked out in the harbor. Did Bronn put Shae on Littlefinger's boat? If so, then I have hope Sansa just might make it through this.

Oh I pray to the old gods and the new that this is so.  I feel like the one favor Roz was able to do the Starks was to warn Shae about LF's intentions towards Sansa.  Thank goodness Shae made it clear to Sansa that LF was not to be trusted.  I'll never forget how Shae told Sansa that if LF ever did anything, ever said anything, that made Sansa uncomfortable, that she should tell Shae.  It was just like how adults today warn little kids about "stranger danger" and "go tell an adult right away," it was the same kind of instructions!!  I guess that's how people who aren't Starks in this world have to talk to Starks, to get them to understand that no, not everybody is wonderful, kind, and well-intentioned towards them.  (Hound to Arya: "How many Starks have to get beheaded before you understand that?")

[stillshimpy]

Oh I pray to the old gods and the new that this is so.  I feel like the one favor Roz was able to do the Starks was to warn Shae about LF's intentions towards Sansa.  Thank goodness Shae made it clear to Sansa that LF was not to be trusted.  I'll never forget how Shae told Sansa that if LF ever did anything, ever said anything, that made Sansa uncomfortable, that she should tell Shae.  It was just like how adults today warn little kids about "stranger danger" and "go tell an adult right away," it was the same kind of instructions!!

Oh my god, that's right.  Roz did warn Shae about Littlefinger and Sansa does know that he's super creepy.  

"I love that girl, I would kill for her."  I would build a freaking shrine to Shae and light candles to her screechiness if she managed to freaking off Littlefinger.  

Sadly, I sort of doubt Bronn put Shae on Littlefinger's boat.  Tyrion said he was sending her across the Narrow Sea to some place that sounds a hell of a lot more pleasant than the Seven Kingdoms, where she could have a good, well-provided for life.  

Edited April 22, 2014 by stillshimpy

[abelard]

"I love that girl, I would kill for her."  I would build a freaking shrine to Shae and light candles to her screechiness if she managed to freaking off Littlefinger.

 

Totally.  But I feel like the way "justice" on this show works, Shae would cut LF's throat and then be killed herself in the very next moment.  Now that I think of it, Shae is a pretty good candidate for "dies in an act of brilliant, tragic, defiant, noble self-sacrifice."  

Btw, nobody has remarked on Oberyn saying, "Some people believe that the sky is blue because we live in the eye of a blue-eyed giant."  And I said: "...named Macumber!!!"  RIP Old Nan. 

[capt planet]

Incest rape on a corpse.  Lingering snot rocket.

I can see what drew HBO to this series....

[DirewolfPup]

Btw, nobody has remarked on Oberyn saying, "Some people believe that the sky is blue because we live in the eye of a blue-eyed giant."  And I said: "...named Macumber!!!"  RIP Old Nan. 

I finished the sentence out loud when I watched it live. It was actually Robb Stark that said that. So mine was more like, "...named Macumber!!! oh Robb..." <sobbing>

 

Edit: Spelling is hard

Edited April 22, 2014 by DirewolfPup

[abelard]

I finished the sentence out loud when I watched it live. It was actually Robb Stark that said that. So mine was more like, "...named Macumber!!! oh Robb..." <sobbing>

Oh, it *was* Robb who said that <sob>.  (Robb sobb!!!)  But he was quoting something Old Nan told him, since Bran was repeating some of Old Nan's Most Excellent Monologue about the WW, Robb meant to comfort him by saying one of Old Nan's more ridiculous tall tales (blue-eyed giant named Macumber).  But Bran's response to that theory was, "Maybe we do."  Bran has always been more willing to believe.

[MrMicrophone]

Sackett,

Oh, I'm not going that far -- that Cersei would actually leave Jaime. Just that we'd know from her reaction.

(Assuming this rape is the first time. Uggh. A show causes unpleasant thoughts!)

[WhiteStumbler]

A nomination for Best Quote of the Episode goes to Olenna Tyrell: "The world is overflowing with horrible things, but they're all a tray of cakes next to death."

[RadiantAerynSun]

 

Ah, but didn't that conversation he was having with Shireen emphasize that Davos was a smuggler, and what's a smuggler and what's a pirate? So he goes to find his buddy the pirate, they waylay one of those Braavos barges full of gold, and Davos smuggles the proceeds ashore to Stannis.

I wondered at this myself, but then it makes no sense for "Stannis" to write to the Bank of Braavos? Er, unless they are writing to request a loan and plan on having the pirate steal the money before it gets to Stannis, and hope the Braavosi don't suspect Stannis because why would you steal your own gold? But that's silly IMO as I think the Braavosi would notice Stannis suddenly had gold to spend.

[Pallas]

I think it's something a lot more boring.  A straightforward letter of introduction from Stannis, the only legitimate king of the Seven Kingdoms -- and so, the actual heir to the Baratheon loans; the one responsible for paying them back -- and an offer to do so, once the Bravosi advance another loan to allow Stannis to clean house.  I don't think Davos wants the First Sword gunning for him again. 

[WhiteStumbler]

Something on rewatch: Before The Horrible Thing happens to Cersie, she and her brother are alone in the Sept. Jaime is touching her on the head and the back with his left hand. C touches J on the cheek, and they start kissing passionately (ick). Jaimie's right hand comes into the shot and moves near C's left face. Watch her recoil from his metal hand. Jaime flips out, then does the darkest thing I've seen on this show.

She DIDN'T deserve what happened. No one can.

This is probably a (main?) reason for Cersei not wanting to resume her... peculiar relationship with Jaime since he came home minus a hand.

For the record, I hate feeling any sympathy for Cersei, but she watched her firstborn die horribly in front of her, watched her father rip the character of her dead son to pieces as Joffrey lay dead beside her, watched that same father tear her living son away from her, and was then called "hateful" before being raped by her own brother.

Did I mention I hate feeling any sympathy for Cersei?

[stillshimpy]

For the record, I hate feeling any sympathy for Cersei, but she watched her firstborn die horribly in front of her, watched her father rip the character of her dead son to pieces as Joffrey lay dead beside her, watched that same father tear her living son away from her, and was then called "hateful" before being raped by her own brother.

Did I mention I hate feeling any sympathy for Cersei?

I know what you mean, but Joffrey was actually her second born, according to the show.  The only area Cersei has ever displayed anything resembling empathy for, , when it comes to other human beings, is about the love a parent has for a child.  When she talked to Catelyn about her first son dying and then said that she'd pray to the mother, etc. etc.  I actually have never been able to fully disbelieve her there.  I think she had sympathy for Cat's plight even though she really, really did not want to. 

 

She has treated Sansa so horribly the mind reels, but when she told Tyrion that he needed to give Sansa a child to love, because it would help her, I actually believed that Cersei thought she was being sincere.

 

Also, there's a key difference in recognizing, "Yeah, that was rape and it's wrong." and saying, "they can't show that!"  They can.  They did.  It was horrible.  It was probably inevitable in the trajectory of their truly sick relationship -- and by the way, it isn't even just the "incestuous relationship, yikes!" thing that makes it sick.  It's that they've killed multiple people, lived a life of complete deceit and thwarted every healthy emotion human beings can have for one another, all in the name of their "love".  That's all a very big part of what makes it sick.  

 

But yes, I felt sorry for Cersei there and had sympathy for her.  A good part of what landed Cersei in this bizarre position -- other than her own choices -- was that she was given away in marriage like she was a salad  spinner; a goat; or an attractive centerpiece.  It started with her father taking as a given that her body was his to give away as it best suited the family.  Cersei apparently wasn't opposed to that, but it ended so horribly that there they are, on the floor of tomb-room adding that extra level of emotional horror to this show that practically knows no bounds on it. 

 

I don't know if Cersei is that freaked out by Jaime's deformity or what, but I don't think it's that.  In the last season, before she even turns around and sees that Jaime is standing behind her and her eyes flick (in what did seem to be distaste) towards his injury , she doesn't look relieved ,or happy or moved that she's just heard his voice behind her.  She looks hardened to it before she even sees that he's lost a hand.  

 

Anyway, Cersei is a difficult character to feel for, but to put it mildly, she had a tough day there.  

Edited April 23, 2014 by stillshimpy

[arry the orphan]

I love the idea of using Davos's pirate friends for a heist. But maybe the Lannister (or Tyrell) ships trying to repay the loan to the Iron Bank of Braavos would be a better target. If the Bank never receives their gold back and realize that the Lannisters don't always pay their debts, the IBB might be willing to support Stannis instead (and hire merceneraries for him).

Edited April 23, 2014 by arry the orphan

[DirewolfPup]

Scenes with Cersei and Tyrion in season 2 & 3 were some of my favorites. Over time, she acknowledges and accepts that Joffrey really is a demon monster spawn. She even goes so far as to admit to Tyrion that she thought having an evil c*** for a son was a punishment for all "their sins." Meaning the sins of an incestuous relationship with her twin brother. The vile spawn of that union was evil and cruel and, also, entirely her own fault. The scene where she coddles his direwolf bite in season 1 comes to mind here.

 

I've had sympathy for Cersei, since season 2. The constant drinking and trying to find her place in the capital has been really rewarding to watch. Tywin was correct when he pointed out her shortcomings: not as smart as she thinks she is, not clever, not cunning. She's certainly not an idiot. I would even argue that she's smarter than Jamie. But in a capital that's crawling with Varys, Littlefingers, Pycelles, Tywin, and Tyrion, she really doesn't measure up. Then it's really hard to take her jealousy of Maegery seriously. Are the Tyrells gaining a dangerous foothold on the capital? A resounding yes. But she offers no fixes, no solutions other than to openly threaten Marge and screw over her plans for the leftovers. (Oh no! Not the leftovers!)

 

Cersei has been doing a lot of soul searching since Jamie left. She probably never had to before when Jamie was around all the time. Honestly, she may just feel guilty about the whole thing. Between Joffrey, the wars, the murders, and the humiliation, she may just be fed up. She doesn't want it anymore. She'd rather be alone and have her children than be some man's dick holster, sorry, wife.

Edited April 23, 2014 by DirewolfPup

[stillshimpy]

All right.  I'm going to turn resolutely and march to the newly created Cersei topic located here, under this handy-dandy link, to discuss the series' long development of Cersei's character.  

[MrMicrophone]

Shimp,

A bit of perspective:

"It's that they've killed multiple people"

... attempted to kill Bran, which was Dumb and Heat of the Moment (to be clear, it's still murder).

And Robert Baratheon, who according to Cersei raped her, so not the best of men.

(Unclear as to whether they actually killed Jon Arryn or anyone else. Pretty sure they didn't do the second attempt on Bran).

[RadiantAerynSun]

 

And Robert Baratheon, who according to Cersei raped her, so not the best of men.

 

When did that happen? I just remember her saying he stunk of wine, called her another woman's name, and that she dealt with him in "other ways" than having intercourse and he was too drunk to know the difference. Thus all her children were Jaime's.

[MrMicrophone]

Rad,

Okay, so that's not rape, technically. Nonetheless, she didn't want it (I think that's clear?), and he continued to molest her. [N.B.: One can truly ask if Robert was capable of giving informed consent.]

[stillshimpy]

And Robert Baratheon, who according to Cersei raped her, so not the best of men.

When did that happen? I just remember her saying he stunk of wine, called her another woman's name, and that she dealt with him in "other ways" than having intercourse and he was too drunk to know the difference. Thus all her children were Jaime's.

It didn't happen, Radiant,  but I don't think there's any question that Robert was a dreadful husband.  In some ways their entire relationship was about being pressured into performing ones duty to a kingdom.  I think it's easy to suss out that, left to his own devices Robert might have never gotten over Lyanna Stark anyway.  However, Jon Arryn apparently told Robert to marry Cersei shortly after winning the rebellion.  

 

Who knows if things would have been better if Robert had been given a chance to mourn and move on.  Doesn't seem like he was ever inclined to try, but I think both Robert and Cersei suffered from the pressure in their social circle to appear to be doing ones duty to a Kingdom, to a House, to a name.  The King is supposed to make sure he creates an heir and in darker times, as many spares as possible to go with that heir. 

 

There are still cultures, still families within cultures where this is no longer a norm, who think of it as a duty to ones family to marry and have children to carry on a name or a family, so it's not all that foreign a concept to us.  But anyway, Robert needed to marry for the sake of a Kingdom, both of them were in the horrible position of having to do their duty to start the whole "get busy begetting heirs" and it wasn't supposed to matter that they loathed each other.  

 

So in some ways, both were victims of a really heartless social structure, but Robert certainly didn't do anything to help matters.  Wasn't in the least sensitive to how it must have felt to be Cersei, getting stuck marrying a man who wanted her to be someone else to the extent that he'd get himself blindingly drunk and pretend that she was.  Robert was also just a heartbroken man, but apparently he didn't think that maybe Cersei had feelings that would matter too.  

 

Hell, even all the way at the end, when Cersei asked Robert if there was ever a time when they might have stood a chance together -- and his answer was just devoid of any kind of compassion for her (at that stage a state they'd both earned through their actions, I suppose) -- and he answered that no, there was never a time.  He wasn't gloating, or spiking a football of malicious glee, he was answering her honestly and seemed to have no regret over how heartless a thing that was. 

 

Anyway, they were both miserable and taking it out on each other, but their entire sexual relationship would have been about Robert getting drunker than hell and apparently girding up his loins to try and produce an heir, because that's what he was supposed to do.  Cersei's revenge upon him for never caring about her heart, her feelings, her hopes or dreams was to deny him any chance of ever actually producing a child...without him actually knowing. 

 

It was a sick and mutually abusive relationship there , but it's not comparable to Jaime and Cersei's relationship.  Robert and Cersei were both placed in that spot by a pressure to be honorable, to do their duty as king and queen....and both really faceplanted on that and were as cruel to the other as they could be.  Cersei sought solace with Jaime, but in only choosing to have his children, she also sought revenge on a system that forced both Robert and Cersei into not merely a loveless marriage, but a hateful one.  

 

Olenna also talked about that, talking about "suffering" her husband in order to have children.  Produce heirs.  Catelyn tried to get Rob to honor his word, do his duty and marry a Frey girl.   This system tries to treat feelings, inclinations and passions as if they hold no place, particularly for women.  The story keeps indicating that they are much of the driving force behind all that happens. 

Edited April 23, 2014 by stillshimpy

[janjan]

I just remember her saying he stunk of wine, called her another woman's name, and that she dealt with him in "other ways" than having intercourse and he was too drunk to know the difference.

 

Okay, so that's not rape, technically. Nonetheless, she didn't want it (I think that's clear?), and he continued to molest her

Aggravated sexual assault.

[stillshimpy]

I think it qualifies as rape, personally.  Even though I also think it was about societal pressure, it's still sex without true consent.  

However, that does get into the entire weirdness that in this world it is apparently expected.  Remember Sansa taking a slug of wine as she prepared for the worst and Tyrion just opting not to go there.  Just because it is commonplace in this world doesn't alter what it is and yeah, it was marital rape in Robert and Cersei's case.   Or at least bizarre societal coercion that negated the import of consent, but again, still rape. 

 

It was under duress from both sides, and again apparently just an accepted part of this world (reason no 8, 552 why I'm glad I don't live there) but still.   It was also marriage without either's true consent, but I'm not sure what that would be called other than a colossally bad idea in any event.

ETA:  Jeez, that's a sobering thought, isn't it?  "Game of Thrones: It would probably take less time to list the men who don't qualify as rapists in the here and now...and it would be a short list."   But for all that Dany ended up over the moon and stars (clovers and diamonds) for Drogo?  He was raping her until the It's Is Know Sex Instruction.   Actually, I'm fairly certain the only (living) full grown man on the list of "probably never raped anyone" would be Tyrion.  

 

The Seven Kingdoms: Where it's taken as a given and whereas that disturbs the hell out of us, it's pretty much meant to.   When the Hound talks about how the farmer and his daughter will be dead by winter because they can't protect themselves I really hoped they'd just be dead, vs. in Thenn Stew or that poor girl sold to the sort of establishment Gilly's ...cleaning. Yeah, does not pay to dwell upon the life Sam thinks is better than being stuck at Castle -- 'where they sentence the "rapers" -- Black.  Which judging by the rest of the freaking world as we end up seeing it, always makes me wonder how in the world they were convicted, since again, treated as being almost as commonplace as a headcold.  It's a really disturbing element of the story I try not to dwell on too much. 

Edited April 23, 2014 by stillshimpy

[justawatcher]

I will respectfully disagree. It is not until the last 100 years that there has been any societal shift on marital rape. Just as many societies today still do arranged marriages, many societies today hold the opinion that a husband can take his "marital rights". The purpose of an arranged marriage is to provide the young people a framework of their families mores and social structure. It is to give guidance to building a family and entering a community as adults. There's no love required in that. If love were required for sex, all of our ancestors would have died out long ago. In fact, it wasn't until about 40 years ago with the advent of the Pill and legal abortion that public conversations about nice girls enjoying sex inside and outside of marriage even took place.

I find it very unrealistic to judge a show set in the past by modern mores. If you judge GoT by the mores of the time, it's right on target, even if you(general) don't like those mores.

[stillshimpy]

I will respectfully disagree. It is not until the last 100 years that there has been any societal shift on marital rape.

Actually it was Tyrion's view of having sex with Sansa that pretty much settled that question for me.  When he told Tywin that he wouldn't rape Sansa.  He actually knows that Sansa would ...do her duty or however we want to put that.  So the concept of rape being about lack of consent even within marriage is actually  in the show. 

Edited April 23, 2014 by stillshimpy

[stillshimpy]

For which attitude Tyrion is thought to be weird by just about everyone.

Anyone in particular or specific example of this to back that up?  I only remember Cersei and Tywin weighing in on the subject.  Tywin telling him to get busy making small people and Tyrion replying that he wasn't going to rape Sansa.  Tywin didn't actually say anything to that to refute the concept that it wouldn't be rape because they are married.  He didn't disagree with Tyrion , Tywin just disagreed that that should be a concern.

 

Cersei told Tryion that he need to 'give her a child' so that she'd have someone to love and seemingly as an alternative to suicide.  So that's two people.  Anyone else? I don't recall anyone.  Also, neither actually commented on whether Tyrion's attitude was peculiar.  Either way, within the show we've had a character refer to being unwilling to rape (specifically using that word) another character who is his wife and he actually didn't refer to her age when he spoke of it to Tywin.  

 

I do agree that pretty clearly within the show the entire concept of rape and sexual assault within that world indicates that it is viewed differently, but not that much differently when they have men sentenced to the Night's Watch and The Wall as 'rapers'.  

 

But we started down this particular path because of the question of Robert and Cersei's entire married life and what passed for their sex life and basically, it is a strange situation in which neither party truly wished to have sex with the other.  So it's a weird gray area of "Well yup, that's rape, but in some weird way in which both parties had their actual wishes violated by the pressures of their societal positions and the expectations of those roles. 

 

Again, not really comparable to Jaime raping Cersei because in that instance, the expectations of society aren't actually the motivating force.

 

The deal with the Dothraki is so complicated I just don't even want to approach it, but they also understood the concept and actually used it as a weapon. Drogo likely would have been mystified by the notion that he was raping Dany at any point, whereas judging from what we saw onscreen, Dany knew full well that it was rape, she just felt she had no choice, until she basically learned that it didn't have to be so horrid.  That she might actually actively choose to have sex with Drogo.  

 

But she also later suggested that the Dothraki should marry the Lamb Women  which she seemed to believe would negate the entire "hey, we won here, we get to do this, take by force and rape" of it all.  Of coure, the Dothraki were considered savage and primitive within the actual story, by the participants of the story.  

 

I'm actually not particularly het up over all of this, I basically agree that within the construct of this show rape exists as something different than how we view it.  In particular, it appears that it is treated as a right that men have.  An unquestioned one and that only women of a certain social stature can expect to be spared that exertion of what the show and that world deems a "right".  But Jaime does view rape as rape.  We know this because whereas he told Brienne just to let Bolton's men rape her, he did manage to get them to stop in order to spare her the violence and indignity.  

 

However, he really did talk about it as just something that she knew would happen and to be expected.  So it surprised me when Tyrion came right out and called a spade a spade, referring to being unwilling to rape Sansa.  I don't agree that he's viewed as being weird, but I do think that he's the closest thing to a sensitive person on this show.  

 

Also, I think it is one thing to say that it is only within recent history that marital rape as a concept existed, because when viewing history, that would be correct and have a lot of bearing.  However, when viewing fiction created within a specific time period, the reaction of an audience is expected to have the social mores of the time in which it was created attached to something.  As an example, that infamous scene with Rhett Bulter and Scarlett O'Hara when he carries her upstairs, etc. etc. the next morning she wakes up happy as can be.  To a modern audience, it's horrifying.  Holy crap, rape! At the time it was intended to be something else.  Swoon-worthy, romantic.  It wasn't meant to depict Rhett Butler as a horrible rapist.  

 

However, Game of Thrones is prepared for a modern audience, that is well aware of the concept and actuality of marital rape.  So the social mores would not be given the same softening historical filter, because the story was written by people who know what marital rape is and that it is a real thing.  I think the story also went out of its way to acknowledge that by having Tyrion name exactly what Tywin was telling him to do: Rape his wife. 

 

I'll be interested to see how the show has Cersei react, but the show already set the stage on multiple occasions with several characters talking about and reacting to rape, including Cersei.

Edited April 24, 2014 by stillshimpy

[MrMicrophone]

Just wanted to say... If Robert was merely trying for "an heir" -- I'd mostly absolve him of rape (or sexual assault). Socially, it's in both their interests to have an heir, and even if nobody's happy about it, it kinda needs to happen (Marg and Loras realize this -- Cersei's not that impractical and naive).

I had much more of the impression that he continued to do this after Joffrey survived babyhood, and that it was more about a drunk bellowing "I'm allowed to fuck my wife!" than I Have To.

[stillshimpy]

I think actually the old "An heir and a spare" is more "heir and spares" when people up and die of fevers, or weddings.  We're told that their first son "died of a fever" after all.   The Starks are actually all the way down to their third son for the hopes of any kind of heir since Bran is likely out of the heir-making-business (even if he wasn't resolutely marching -- via Hodor -- into a particularly frosty death trap).  Actually, if those had been all of Robert's children, the Baratheons would also be down to their third son in the King's line.  

 

But mostly rather than trying to label  characters with accusations, more than anything I was just intrigued that they had Tyrion just put that out there and wondered if there would be some story purpose.  

 

A few of us have been exchanging some messages about who might have killed Joffrey and who might have been involved.  If there was anyway Tywin might have been involved.  He seemed awfully at peace with the entire thing, and I think he really is too astute to believe that Tyrion murdered Joffrey with half the cities and countries high born people as witnesses.  

 

I couldn't quite figure out why he'd  in anyway consent to Sansa being sent to safety.  Admittedly, being in Littlefinger's company hardly qualifies as safety (yipes).  However, Tryion told him flat-out that he had no plans of producing a North-and-South bridging baby with Sansa by force and that would a) negate the worth of the marriage from Tywin's perspective b) prove that Tyrion is not going to be controlled easily and then about the only way to make someone as guileless as Sansa "sheep shift" Stark look guilty would be to have her flee.  c) Tywin is also likely smart enough to know that the likelihood of Sansa and Tyrion having marital relations by choice on both parts was, if nothing else, years in the offing if ever so that scene might have also been establishing why, or how, Tywin might have changed is mind on not murdering Lannisters himself, but he has actually shown that he wouldn't mind Tyrion being put in a position to die and get out of the way prior to this. 

 

I'm not even sure I buy that theory, but that's part of what had me puzzling through the entire thing. " What purpose did that scene serve? " essentially.  One might be to help establish why in the world Tywin might just heave in the towel, the bathwater and the kitchen sink with all these unworkable, stubborn relative.  He's just strangely uninterested in finding who really killed Joffrey and he's too smart to buy that Tyrion and Sansa (formerly) Stark did it.  

 

However, it's also possible that Tywin recognizes "It's Joffrey, was there anyone who didn't want him dead on some level?"  So I don't know, it was mostly just musings, but I still think Tywin's reaction was weird.  No outrage.  Attempts that seem to be about fixing the jury.  He was kinder to Tommen than I've ever seen him be, at all, to anyone.  I think it was actually supposed to stand out as such because he went out of his way to tell Tommen "It's not a trick" when Tywin asked him about what makes a good ruler.  Then he very speedily got down to the business of instructing Tommen about making said heirs.  

 

I'll be interested to see this week's episode to see what the heck goes on between Jaime and Cersei in the aftermath of that.  

 

As a complete aside, I am terrified by what a birds and the bees talk from Tywin might sound like, but he seemed to have his previously unseen "caring granpapa" persona in place for it, so hopefully Tommen's not scarred for life. 

Edited April 24, 2014 by stillshimpy

[Pallas]

Two fantastic posts, shimpy: first a marvelous, nuanced perspective on Robert and Cersei's marriage, and then a broader overview about the concept of rape within the show.   Wow.
 
My feeling about rape within the show is that in this world -- across the Seven Kingdoms and beyond to Estos, as well -- the concept pretty much follows Western tradition up to the recent times.  Women are wards of the (male) head of their households, a position into which they were conscripted from birth. They're in the army now.  Across all classes, their function is to serve.  In different ways at different life stages and different social circumstances, but to serve.  They may dislike certain aspects of the service but they may not abstain, any more than soldiers, say, can be said to be "forced against their will" to kill, to march, to peel potatoes, to be bored or to like any of it. 
 
I can't think of anything within the show that breaks with our own recent tradition.  In that regard, the purpose of marriage is procreation within the canon of legitimacy, so that society may continue, a nation may compete and prevail, and family property may be transferred down generations in an orderly fashion.  Rellgion and the law were not interested in the particulars of marital, procreative sex, and especially uninterested in distinguishing between marital sex for the purposes of procreation and marital sex for the purpose of pleasure, punishment, or other.  Men made the rules and there was no reason to get into any of that. Procreation/schomocreation: when it came down to it, what a man did with his own wife in his own bedroom was his own business.
 
So rape of a female by a male would be defined as forced fornication inflicted on a female by a male not her husband.  I imagine that convicted Westerosi rapers are most likely to be lower class men who offended against higher class women, and/or a female with a fierce father/brother/husband willing to take the hit to family pride in order to punish the offender.  What mattered was the manner of man whose female family member was violated.  (And by extension, most likely, septas: women presumed to be serving the whole of society.) 
 
Tyrion, though, spoke to Tywin of the prospective bedding of his wife as rape.  I'd say, with an implicit, "under the circumstances."  I think the circumstances he dares to imply with Tywin are not so much his wife's unwillingess to be fucked by her husband, but rather, his wife's and her family's unwillingness for her to be his wife.  As other posters noted last season, Sansa's first betrothal to Joffrey was an arranged marriage, to which her family gave consent.  This marriage to Tyrion was a forced marriage, in which her family played no part.  The consent that is lacking is the only consent that matters in the least: not Sansa's but that of her (male) people.  I think that is a distinction that even Tywin recognizes, so that he doesn't care to debate with Tyrion about his scruples.  He doesn't care, at all.  Yes, we forced her; yes, you will have to force yourself upon her.  Get on with it.

 

Tyrion -- as you said, shimpy, the Dionysian man who passes for "sensitive" in this story -- seems to have his own objections to forcing himself on Sansa.  I think it's those that ruled him, in fact.  He might call forced sex rape, under any conditions.  But he wouldn't expect anyone else to agree with him.  

[stillshimpy]

Great points all, Pallas, and I heartily agree that Tyrion wasn't just making a statement about ...how to put this...heir-making obligations and what he intended to do with them in general...but in particular that trying to force the issue with Sansa, who was more a captive than a spouse would be rape to his mind and therefore not something he was willing to undertake.  

 

Admittedly, when Bronn visited Tryion in his cell, Tryion referred to Sansa as "My wife" in a way that suggested he'd at least gotten a bit used to the whole "she's my spouse" thing.   He seemed to be requesting her in the vein of both an ally and partner.  That also surprised me.  

 

 

My feeling about rape within the show is that in this world -- across the Seven Kingdoms and beyond to Estos, as well -- the concept pretty much follows Western tradition up to the recent times.  Women are wards of the (male) head of their households, a position into which they were conscripted from birth. They're in the army now.  Across all classes, their function is to serve.  In different ways at different life stages and different social circumstances, but to serve.  They may dislike certain aspects of the service but they may not abstain, any more than soldiers, say, can be said to be "forced against their will" to kill, to march, to peel potatoes, to be bored or to like any of it.

Very true, but also much of the upset and horror within this world is a direct result of that structure failing spectacularly, so I do think the story is doing something quite purposeful with it all.  Even the rebellion started not because freaking Aerys Targaryen was burning subjects alive which you'd think would be enough (or at least I'd think), but because the theft of a woman (depending upon the angle from which the various male characters view it, ever notice that it really isn't commented upon by the female characters?) brought about chaos and destruction.  

 

Then also the results of a different forced marriage brought a Kingdom and most of the ruling families to the mess we now see them in. 

Edited April 24, 2014 by stillshimpy

[Pallas]

Wonderful point that the story may be saying, See why this doesn't work?  See what happens when one group gets to set all the rules, gets to establish what is considered just and righteous and meet and efficient?  That's not Game of Thrones, people; that's Lord of the Flies.  

 

I'd only add that Cersei's marriage was not forced, in those terms: Cersei's marriage was arranged.  She even entered into it willingly, it seems, and with respect and admiration for Robert the Victor.  She came in more than prepared to do her part: if we assume, as I sort of do, that she would have been willing to end her affair with her brother.  Robert, though, refused to honor the unspoken rules that would make an arranged marriage tolerable for strangers, tolerable even for mismatched partners.  He...well, everything you said above.  He blew it.  He was not just a despicable husband by our terms; he was an incompetent royal husband, destabilizing the Throne as much by his domestic failures within the Keep as within the Realm.  He had no duty to love Cersei, to admire Cersei, to desire Cersei (any more than necessary) or to be nice to Cersei, beyond civility.  He had a duty to respect his Queen, and not undermine her ability to function in her role.  And he blew it, big time.

 

The show actually seems to be clear and strikingly non, non-judgmental in choosing sides here -- Robert started it.  Robert started it; Cersei then joined in this new game of yuck, and escalated it.  I think Cersei's accounts of her marriage to Cat, then Robert, then Ned, are all sincere, clear-eyed, and as accurate as anyone's account from within a horrible marriage can be.  And then we have the example of Ned and Cat's very much arranged marriage, which clearly worked because both parties entered into it in good faith, and good character.  So I'm not sure -- truly, not sure -- if the show means to indict arranged marriage as much as does childish, self-indulgent, nasty spouses.   Or in other words, Kids, don't try this at home.

[stillshimpy]

Yeah, I'm fond of Mark Addy, the actor, and I think casting him as Robert was a good move.  Played by a different actor, I'm not sure I'd have ever been able to believe in anything sympathetic in Robert.  He was a mean drunk to his wife and that's just part of why he sucked all around as a spouse and partner.  They did engage in a decade (at least) long nastiness contest and both are equally guilty in maintaining it, but there's no doubt as to who started it. 

 

 

I'd only add that Cersei's marriage was not forced, in those terms: Cersei's marriage was arranged.  She even entered into it willingly, it seems, and with respect and admiration for Robert the Victor.

I think this was supposed to happen when Cersei was basically a version of Sansa Stark, starry-eyed over landing the King.  Apparently never even having had the benefit of a candid conversation with Robert, since I doubt he was doing much to hide how not into marrying anyone other than Lyanna Stark he was.  So he did what Jon Arryn told him,  

 

I do like Mark Addy, but as a husband Robert was complete shit.  Now, what Cersei described about their wedding night is awful even poor Sansa hasn't been put through that level of emotional misery as it relates strictly to romance.  However, it might not be evidence of nastiness as much as a truly broken heart.    It's still what started the entire debacle though, at least according to Cersei and I've no reason to disbelieve her at all .  I think there's a reason she's always taken near delight in tormenting Sansa.  It's like being able to get back at her past self. 

 

Doesn't excuse it, just might indicate that it wasn't a personally malicious action in its intent  from Robert's standpoint.  Doesn't really matter because for all the damage it did to that world, it would almost be better if it had been deliberate.  I think though, that it was as likely incidental as anything. 

Edited April 24, 2014 by stillshimpy

[DirewolfPup]

The war didn't start because Rheghar stole Lyanna, right? He stole her or ran off with her --depending on your family-- so Ned's father and brother went to retrieve her. Then the Mad King set them both on fire. I always assumed it was the combination of acts that led to the war, not just the kidnapping of Lyanna alone.

[stillshimpy]

The war didn't start because Rheghar stole Lyanna, right? He stole her or ran off with her --depending on your family-- so Ned's father and brother went to retrieve her. Then the Mad King set them both on fire. I always assumed it was the combination of acts that led to the war, not just the kidnapping of Lyanna alone.

We don't actually know the order of events, DirewolfPup, when Bran told Osha about it, he indicated that Robert's rebellion was about retrieving Lyanna Stark.  

 

I'm inclined to believe that because it wasn't Eddard Stark's rebellion, it was Robert Baratheon's.  I think all we know about Brandon and Papa Stark's death is that they were summoned to the capital and burned alive, not that they went there for a particular reason other than being summoned.  It seems more likely that Robert's Rebellion   was  not sparked (oh jeez, what a terrible pun) by the burning of Starks, but rather the removal of something Robert felt was his. 

 

ETA:  On that subject, I have to admit I give the show a failing grade on providing clarity on any of that.  We still don't know how Dany and Viserys ended up spared.  Were they sent away? Just at the beach when the whole thing went to hell?    We have learned what happened from Jaime's perspective, but considering everything, the show has been remarkably murky about providing a timeline for that and we've been guessing about it for three years. 

Edited April 24, 2014 by stillshimpy

[MrMicrophone]

shimp,

Yeah. Boy howdy -- Robert, who had to force himself to do anything with Cersei on their wedding night, still heartbroken and grieving.

A bit of blame (not much) ought to fall on Cersei's golden head, though -- some might have been able to forgive their husband's DEAD love. She's buried after all, he's not getting her back.

A Queen can still be A Queen even if her husband doesn't love her (so long as she bears his babies). However, I don't think Cersei's psyche would (or did) bear up to the pain and abuse.

[Pallas]

Yeah, I'm fond of Mark Addy, the actor, and I think casting him as Robert was a good move.  Played by a different actor, I'm not sure I'd have ever been able to believe in anything sympathetic in Robert.  He was a mean drunk to his wife and that's just part of why he sucked all around as a spouse and partner.

 

Yes indeed, Mark Addy was an inspired choice: just as Ned did, we could always see the younger man within the decaying bulk of the older.  We knew that guy, the kid who was so charismatic and much fun to be around before he went to seed.  The kid who, when younger, would have troubled himself to step in and charm everyone out of playing their parts in an injustice such as Cersei's kangaroo court convicting Lady.  The kid who later was too busy blaming the world for his own spent promise.

 

But Robert didn't have a choice about getting married, if he chose to be King.  That was where he had a choice: to be King or not. But as the King -- the brand new Baratheon King, the leader of the rebellion that overthrew a dynasty, he must wed someone.  He must build a dynasty of his own.  That was the first and in many ways, should have been one of his easier duties as King.  Wed, bed and don't destroy her.  Make an arranged marriage work as the arrangement that it was, for the good of everyone, beginning with himself.  

I have to admit I give the show a failing grade on providing clarity on any of that.

 

God are you right.  That's where the show really does seem to depend either on the books, or the collateral material, or on our not being...us, giving damn upon damn about the intricacies of the backstory.  

We still don't know how Dany and Viserys ended up spared.  Were they sent away? Just at the beach when the whole thing went to hell?

 

At the beach, where Viserys burned and Dany did not.  

[abelard]

Yes indeed, Mark Addy was an inspired choice: just as Ned did, we could always see the younger man within the decaying bulk of the older.  We knew that guy, the kid who was so charismatic and much fun to be around before he went to seed.  The kid who, when younger, would have troubled himself to step in and charm everyone out of playing their parts in an injustice such as Cersei's kangaroo court convicting Lady.  The kid who later was too busy blaming the world for his own spent promise.

 

Thumbs up to this.  I can see Young!Robert so, so, painfully clearly in Addy's depiction of Older!Robert, as well as in Ned's descriptions of him, as well as in Tywin's description last week of "King Robert was strong," and Cersei's sad recollection of her hopes and dreams of marrying Robert (before she actually did marry him): "He was all mine."  What a fierce, brave, hilariously loud warrior man he must have been.  He rallied enough armies to his side to "end the Targeryen dynasty," as Tywin said -- even though it is clear that the Mad King's weaknesses were hugely responsible for his losing hold of all the reins of power, including his burning two Starks alive and failing to stop his son from abducting or seducing Lyanna Stark.  I hope that one day, we get to see the Gendry actor re-enact some of Young!Robert's story (though they better get a damned good-looking Young!Ned, since young Sean Bean was a babe).

I agree that this story has been all too vague about the origins and sequence of events of that earlier war but as others have already said, the Most Famous Knife attack on Bran just shows that this show feels a-ok with leaving a lot of things unsolved and unresolved.  (WHERE IS BENJEN STARK?)  We also saw some mysteries solved with nary a word, like seeing who was presiding over Jon Snow's court martial.

One of my questions about that time is wheter Viserys and Danerys and their mother (Mad King's second wife, I'm thinking -- *not* Rhaegar's mother, unless Rhaegar's mother had Rhaegar very young and then had Visy and Dany 20 years later) were, or were not, in KL at the time that KL fell to Ned and Robert and the Lannisters.  Didn't Robert say that Ned spared them at the end of the war?  (In the Small Council meeting -- one of only 3 that Robert ever attended in 17 years!!! -- where they're debating whether to have Dany killed.)  If Ned could intervene on the kids' behalf, why could he not stop the Mountain from raping and murdering Rhaegar's wife, and killing Rhaegar's young children?  One way or another, somebody got Visy+Dany+Mother on a boat -- or rather, Visy+Mother Pregnant with Dany on a boat -- and they sailed away from Westeros in a big storm, during which Dany was born.  

[MrMicrophone]

abelard,

Obvs. Ned could intervene with Robert, because Robert liked his best bud (also, "they're babies!"). Tywin, on the other hand, was a bit of a loose cannon. Alsotoo, Ned might not have been there...

[izabella]

I'm pretty sure Ned was there.  He was the one that walked in on Jamie in the Throne room after he'd killed the Mad King.  Come to think of it, why isn't Jamie the King since he was the one who killed him?

[DirewolfPup]

I'm trying to recall the Jamie/Ned chat back in S01, episode 2 or 3.  They talked about the events at length.

 

Maybe I'm a simpleton, but starting a war because some nobleman's daughter is kidnapped seems extreme. If that's Robert's motivation, fine, but how did he get thousands of men of all different houses to march on KL for that alone?? Pragmatic Ned wouldn't join in the fight if it was just for Lyanna.

 

What I always assumed the story was:

After Lyanna was taken, Ned's father and brother started rustling up support to rebel while Ned remained Warden of the North --- Bran-style. Then the Mad King summoned the pair with the illusion that peace could be reached and their daughter/sister returned.  Then torching in Throne room --> all hell breaks loose. Robert leads because Lyanna was his love and is a natural leader -- charismatic and all that. His best buddy, Ned, was at his side because it was his sister/father/brother.

 

I can't even remember how these assumptions came to be in my disturbed brain. 3 years of torture probably. I'll be answering to Reek before long.

 

btw. When did Ned marry Cat? Cat was promised to Ned's older brother. We learned this from Littlefinger.  Ned's brother/father get burned alive then instant rebellion. Wouldn't he agree to marry Cat after the war? Did he bring Jon Snow back as a baby when they weren't even married yet? That would make Jon older than Robb (ahhh Robb... <sniffle>)

[stillshimpy]

Pragmatic Ned wouldn't join in the fight if it was just for Lyanna.

The Lannister's went to war to try and get Tyrion back, and frankly, they don't even like him , so I find it believable. 

 

Besides, I always thought it was that the Starks were summoned to King's Landing.  Off they went with Lyanna in tow, where The Mad King sort of promptly burned them alive and Rhaegar took off with Lyanna.  Robert went to war to get her back and Ned easily joined in because they'd just felled his entire freaking family and kidnapped his sister.  

 

He married Cat post haste.  Did the "got to leave an heir if possible" duty by Cat and the Stark name (because he's the last remaining Stark not promised to the Wall, so he had to get busy with potential heir making before marching off to battle to retrieve his sister, oust King Crazy and the rest is -- very murky -- history.  

 

But again, no clear timeline on this, that's just what I pieced together. 

 

ETA:

 

Wouldn't he agree to marry Cat after the war?

 

No, again, because of the entire "Ah crap, time to make with the begetting before potentially dying as the last of my name" it would actually be more important to marry before heading off to war to try and leave behind a child.  So presumably they must have had a really freaking fun wedding night , between the sobs of grief and the pressure to "Uh...you could just pretend I'm my brother...?  Maybe?"  I mean, I don't even know if they knew one another prior to the entire, "Oh joy.  Wedded...bliss or...whatever, it is."  because we do know that Ned was actually raised with Robert by Jon Arryn.  So there's actually a chance he didn't know Cat until "Oh hi, uh, want a hankie?  Me too.  Let's do this." 

Edited April 24, 2014 by stillshimpy