Season 3 Discussion

[Dream Boy]

Well, that was...something lol I know the showrunners said that they had notice of the end coming but it still felt rushed. It could have easily been another hour. This was an interesting show for me as a viewer as characters I initially hated or was ambivalent about (Mary, Isaac) ended up becoming favorites while my favorite character ended up as my least favorite by the end of the series (Anne).

Hawthorne and Mercy were pretty loathsome throughout this show but damned if I didn't feel a little sorry for them between the insane mob and Anne's machinations. At least they still ended up with one another at the end. 

Speaking of messed up fates, Tituba had to have had the worst. Powerless, without a voice, and trapped on a slave ship. Anne pretty much guaranteed her the most fucked up existence for any black woman. It just felt unnecessarily cruel and another reason why I kept hoping beyond hope that someone would shank Anne with the angel killer dagger up until the end credits lol

As much as I came around on Mary towards the end, I agree that she did not deserve her happy ending at all. If anything, I would have much preferred that she and Cotton had traded places. She would have made the sacrifice and be trapped in Hell and he would be banished from Salem with Glorianna. 

I can at least take solace in the fact that Anne ended up rejected by everyone, from Cotton to Mercy to Isaac, and will likely end her days loveless and alone with just her power, rat, and Satan baby as solace. 

Edited January 26, 2017 by Dream Boy

[Chaos Theory]

One more thing I think this show is officially going on my list of tragically underrated and under appreciated shows along with Defiance and Alien Nation.  

[qtpye]

Why the hell (pun) would the show runners want Mary to walk off, happy into the sunset, with her true love?  The actress is amazing, but she is directly or indirectly the cause of most of the trouble in this world.

We were debating whether Tituba was the smartest or stupidest person in Salem.  I think we have our answer.  Tituba, the devil has no love for your and will never appreciate your devotion.  Her fate was truly horrible.

Hello Mary, I am damned for hell voluntarily, but no worries (hugs).

The actors were always better then the writing.  I hope some of them get other projects soon.

  Farewell show, you had a good run and your finale was better then Battlestar Galactica.

I think Tituba and Isaac are married in real life.

[Dream Boy]

1 hour ago, Chaos Theory said:

One more thing I think this show is officially going on my list of tragically underrated and under appreciated shows along with Defiance and Alien Nation.  

It truly was a good show. I tried to turn a few friends onto it to no avail. Hopefully it finds a second life via streaming. 

[rcc]

The end of a great show. The acting, writing, costumes, sets, everything about it. Janet Montgomery is a treasure and deserves an Emmy award.

Adam Simon on his twitter, along with Brannon thanked the fans and everybody involved with this show with a video. Lucy Lawless has said she loves all involved and loved Louisiana.

It's too bad the ratings weren't there but not everyone had access to WGN in their cable package. On another forum someone said that if this show was on HBO it would still be in production. I agree.

[PinkRibbons]

2 hours ago, rcc said:

Adam Simon on his twitter, along with Brannon thanked the fans and everybody involved with this show with a video.

[Ravenya003]

Well, that's that.

I was a faithful viewer, but a casual one, so though parts of this finale disappointed me, I was never invested enough to be too disappointed. 

Who would have thought that all along this was never Mary's story, but Anne's? She pulled off a plan worthy of David Xanatos, reaching out to all potential allies, dealing with them if they didn't comply, telling John how to escape, disposing of her mother, giving the devil a second chance at life - and doing it all at once. That was pretty awesome, and what a fantastic arc for that character (when you consider where she started).

Mary and John walking off into the sunset together was half-sweet, half-saccharine, though I can understand why they didn't have them die in each other's arms - in many ways it would have been a fitting ending for them, but they already killed Mary once. Still, it's hard to imagine them living a normal life together. What the heck do you talk about after one of you has tried to take over the world? And weren't they curious about their friends (Isaac) in Salem?

Still, the sight of them together in the graveyard filled with flowers, where they first conceived their demonic son - you can't say it didn't come full circle. 

What happened to Isaac? He knew Anne was a witch and Dorcas was sitting in the church at the end. Wouldn't he have something to say about both those things? 

Of all the surprising things that moved me, it was Cotton and Mary hugging each other and asking for forgiveness. But poor Cotton! Is there really no hope of him escaping? Mary knows where he is, and it's hard to believe that on learning about it, John wouldn't try to save him. Somehow. 

Tituba was wasted from the beginning to the end of this show. Bad form. 

As for the kid who played Kid!Satan, I hope they get him into some therapy, stat. Some of the stuff they've asked him to do on this show can't have been good for his head. 

Edited January 27, 2017 by Ravenya003

[bluvelvet]

I liked the finale, strong episode. The only thing I didn't like was Tituba's fate, it would have been better if they killed her, oh also I was not a fan of Mary getting her happy ending. Otherwise more power to Anne.

[TaurusRose]

On 1/26/2017 at 9:33 AM, Dream Boy said:

Well, that was...something lol I know the showrunners said that they had notice of the end coming but it still felt rushed. It could have easily been another hour. This was an interesting show for me as a viewer as characters I initially hated or was ambivalent about (Mary, Isaac) ended up becoming favorites while my favorite character ended up as my least favorite by the end of the series (Anne).

Hawthorne and Mercy were pretty loathsome throughout this show but damned if I didn't feel a little sorry for them between the insane mob and Anne's machinations. At least they still ended up with one another at the end. 

Speaking of messed up fates, Tituba had to have had the worst. Powerless, without a voice, and trapped on a slave ship. Anne pretty much guaranteed her the most fucked up existence for any black woman. It just felt unnecessarily cruel and another reason why I kept hoping beyond hope that someone would shank Anne with the angel killer dagger up until the end credits lol

As much as I came around on Mary towards the end, I agree that she did not deserve her happy ending at all. If anything, I would have much preferred that she and Cotton had traded places. She would have made the sacrifice and be trapped in Hell and he would be banished from Salem with Glorianna. 

I can at least take solace in the fact that Anne ended up rejected by everyone, from Cotton to Mercy to Isaac, and will likely end her days loveless and alone with just her power, rat, and Satan baby as solace. 

I totally agree with this.  At least Tituba gave Mary one hell of a piece of her mind filled with contempt and loathing before Anne took away her voice. I've never liked Anne and I'm hoping the bitch dies in childbirth.  You can't control everything even if you're the most powerful (only) witch in Salem. I'm glad John survived because I like Shane West (sue me).  I was also glad that Mary told Sebastian that she may have enjoyed the fuck, but that didn't mean she loved him or ever would.  Burn.  

Who would have thought that all along this was never Mary's story, but Anne's? She pulled off a plan worthy of David Xanatos, reaching out to all potential allies, dealing with them if they didn't comply, telling John how to escape, disposing of her mother, giving the devil a second chance at life - and doing it all at once. That was pretty awesome, and what a fantastic arc for that character (when you consider where she started).

All true, but I still HATE Anne Hale Mather and hope that she dies in childbirth.  I hope the brat rips her in two on the way out.  

Edited February 11, 2017 by taurusrose

[Chaos Theory]

2 hours ago, taurusrose said:

I totally agree with this.  At least Tituba gave Mary one hell of a piece of her mind filled with contempt and loathing before Anne took away her voice. I've never liked Anne and I'm hoping the bitch dies in childbirth.  You can't control everything even if you're the most powerful (only) witch in Salem. I'm glad John survived because I like Shane West (sue me).  I was also glad that Mary told Sebastian that she may have enjoyed the fuck, but that didn't mean she loved him or ever would.  Burn.  

 

 

All true, but I still HATE Anne Hale Mather and hope that she dies in childbirth.  I hope the brat rips her in two on the way out.  

See and Anne is my girl.  Where i never particularly liked Tituba so I was quite happy with her fate.  She just stirred the pot and switched sides one too many times.

Mary and John were fairly boring romantic leads but they worked in the long run and someone had to get out alive.  The romantic leads are a good choice. 

Edited February 11, 2017 by Chaos Theory

[TaurusRose]

22 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

See and Anne is my girl.  Where i never particularly liked Tituba so I was quite happy with her fate.  She just stirred the pot and switched sides one too many times.

Mary and John were fairly boring romantic leads but they worked in the long run and someone had to get out alive.  The romantic leads are a good choice. 

I didn't particularly like Tituba because she was really kind of stupid in her choices, but what she said to Mary about whites discovering places that had already been discovered by the people who lived there and taking over was spot on.  As for Anne, she really should take seriously the lesson taught to all the powerful witches that came before her...it never ends well for the biggest bitch.  

Edited February 11, 2017 by taurusrose

[Chaos Theory]

1 hour ago, taurusrose said:

I didn't particularly like Tituba because she was really kind of stupid in her choices, but what she said to Mary about whites discovering places that had already been discovered by the people who lived there and taking over was spot on.  As for Anne, she really should take seriously the lesson taught to all the powerful witches that came before her...it never ends well for the biggest bitch.  

That was a great speech.  I was however particular to Anne's speech to Cotton about how men treat women.  I thought that was great too.

Honestly I thought this show did something rare it wrote men and women; heroes and villians equally as well.  You were able to see where almost everyone was coming from.

[TaurusRose]

13 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

That was a great speech.  I was however particular to Anne's speech to Cotton about how men treat women.  I thought that was great too.

Honestly I thought this show did something rare it wrote men and women; heroes and villians equally as well.  You were able to see where almost everyone was coming from.

I agree with you about Anne's speech.  It's rare to get two powerful POVs in the same series, much less the same episode, so kudos.  Was it the same episode?  If not, still kudos.  LOL

Edited February 12, 2017 by taurusrose

[millennium]

Attractive as I find Anne Hale, Tamzin is a terrible actress.   That final scene before the townsfolk was cringeworthy and pain-inducing.   I was reminded of that scene from Fast Times at Ridgemont High where the two cheerleaders are trying to get a rise out of everyone at the pep rally and failing miserably.   Ugh.   Just awful.

It's funny, the character I have disliked the most from the start, Mercy Lewis, turned out to be the one I liked best this season.   Hair makes a big difference, though her red gown would have seemed more at home in Al Swearengen's bar than colonial Salem.   But Mercy wasn't repellent this season.   It was an unexpected change.

I don't know how John Alden is going to spend the rest of his life with that little flap of ear hanging down.  That would drive me crazy.

I can buy, sort of, Mary being reconstituted after the Countess was killed, but technically it was Mary's original body that was knifed by Anne Hale.   I can't see how the corpse John carried -- the Countess' corpse -- became Mary's body.  Or how her wedding dress was thrown into the deal too.  

Great hell scene at the end.   For a moment I wondered if Cotton would bump into a Cenobite.   Fun fact:  Remember the demon's head iron door-knocker on the portal to Hell?  I own one of those!  I bought it a flea market 30 years ago.

Overall, Salem was a fairly sick series without much to offer by way of plot.  But the sets were well-done and the women pleasing to behold.   In the hands of a better team, it might have been something awesome.   IMHO, no one should ever authorize Brannon Braga to create another television series or movie.  

Edited February 25, 2017 by millennium

[millennium]

On 1/26/2017 at 9:33 AM, Dream Boy said:

 

Speaking of messed up fates, Tituba had to have had the worst. Powerless, without a voice, and trapped on a slave ship. Anne pretty much guaranteed her the most fucked up existence for any black woman. It just felt unnecessarily cruel and another reason why I kept hoping beyond hope that someone would shank Anne with the angel killer dagger up until the end credits lol

 

Ironically, Tituba's fate was the one that most closely mirrored history.   That's not to say she was wished away onto a slave ship, but once the witch hysteria waned, the real Tituba vanished into the mists of time.   She was released from jail, but after that the woman who started the witchcraft panic disappeared into history.   To this day, no one knows what became of her.

[Chaos Theory]

Season 3 of Salem is now on Netflix so I decided to rewatch the show and I am right now on the 2nd episode and it is interesting to note that Cotton telling John Alden how he knew he was damned since he was ten years old and how he expects to burn in hell with all the other sinners.  It may be a coincidence but the way he describes hell and his fate is is quite similar to what actually happens to him.  

Then again alot of peoples fates do go full circle so maybe it isn't a coincidence.  Writing a three season show (even when not intending that) does allow for a certain circular logic that longer series don't allow. 

[LocimusPrime]

• I despise Tibuta. She's absolutely annoying to me. What was the "prize" that was worth destroying humanity? 
• John Alden is an unbelievable character. A human man can best one of worlds greatest warlocks and the second strongest fallen angel in combat. Whatever
• Why didn't any angels descend to help humanity against the fallen angels?  
• What were the Indians? Zombies or something? Who created them? 

[Chaos Theory]

20 minutes ago, LocimusPrime said:

• I despise Tibuta. She's absolutely annoying to me. What was the "prize" that was worth destroying humanity? 
• John Alden is an unbelievable character. A human man can best one of worlds greatest warlocks and the second strongest fallen angel in combat. Whatever
• Why didn't any angels descend to help humanity against the fallen angels?  
• What were the Indians? Zombies or something? Who created them? 

1)  Tituba was governed by anger and rage.  There was a great conversation she had with Increase Mather during season one which I think explained her character.  She was the "woman" behind the curtain  the true power with no real power and did it all because of slavery and a promise from the Devil that Increase Mather said would never be lived up to.     He was of course right but that was in large part because Tituba was someone who let anger and rage get the better of her.  Then again why should she be loyal to anyone when no one was ever loyal to her?  

2)  There are always characters like John Alden.  Warriors who are just fighters who fight.  Sometimes the reasons make sense like they get lucky sometimes you just have to go with it.  John Alden is a fighter who fights.

3)  One of the themes of the series was that devil answers prayers and gave you what you want but at a terrible price while the Puritan God remained silent. 

4)  The Indians were just Indians but since we are living in a world where magic is real their magic is real as well.  Their holy men were able to make John Alden into a Witch Killer in season 2.  

Edited April 10, 2017 by Chaos Theory

[LocimusPrime]

On 4/10/2017 at 6:10 PM, Chaos Theory said:

1)  Tituba was governed by anger and rage.  There was a great conversation she had with Increase Mather during season one which I think explained her character.  She was the "woman" behind the curtain  the true power with no real power and did it all because of slavery and a promise from the Devil that Increase Mather said would never be lived up to.     He was of course right but that was in large part because Tituba was someone who let anger and rage get the better of her.  Then again why should she be loyal to anyone when no one was ever loyal to her?  

2)  There are always characters like John Alden.  Warriors who are just fighters who fight.  Sometimes the reasons make sense like they get lucky sometimes you just have to go with it.  John Alden is a fighter who fights.

3)  One of the themes of the series was that devil answers prayers and gave you what you want but at a terrible price while the Puritan God remained silent. 

4)  The Indians were just Indians but since we are living in a world where magic is real their magic is real as well.  Their holy men were able to make John Alden into a Witch Killer in season 2.  

So what was the "promises" or prize that the devil offered tibuta?  So what's the prize that's worth more than all of humanity? I just want to know what specifically was offered. Some chicken nuggets? Some fresh clothes? Maybe a brand new hand woven basket ? 

[BigBlueMastiff]

3 minutes ago, LocimusPrime said:

So what was the "promises" or prize that the devil offered tibuta?  So what's the prize that's worth more than all of humanity? I just want to know what specifically was offered. Some chicken nuggets? Some fresh clothes? Maybe a brand new hand woven basket ? 

revenge?

[Chaos Theory]

34 minutes ago, LocimusPrime said:

So what was the "promises" or prize that the devil offered tibuta?  So what's the prize that's worth more than all of humanity? I just want to know what specifically was offered. Some chicken nuggets? Some fresh clothes? Maybe a brand new hand woven basket ? 

 

31 minutes ago, BigBlueMastiff said:

revenge?

Yes revenge.  She explains it quite nicely in her final conversation with Mary.  She agreed to decimate all of mankind (especially white mankind) for simple uncomplicated revenge.  White people claim all the world, decimating and enslaving the people already there.  She is merely doing the same to them.  It is actually a fascinating speech.  I liked it almost as much as the Angel/doll speech Anne gave to Cotton on the hypocrisy of what men want from women.  Both are given in the heat of anger by exceptionally bitter women but there is truth to them.

Edited April 12, 2017 by Chaos Theory

[LocimusPrime]

9 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

 

Yes revenge.  She explains it quite nicely in her final conversation with Mary.  She agreed to decimate all of mankind (especially white mankind) for simple uncomplicated revenge.  White people claim all the world, decimating and enslaving the people already there.  She is merely doing the same to them.  It is actually a fascinating speech.  I liked it almost as much as the Angel/doll speech Anne gave to Cotton on the hypocrisy of what men want from women.  Both are given in the heat of anger by exceptionally bitter women but there is truth to them.

Thanks for the explanation.  Now I think even less of Tibuta. To have all of humanity including her own race destroyed. Tisk tisk 

[Chaos Theory]

10 hours ago, LocimusPrime said:

Thanks for the explanation.  Now I think even less of Tibuta. To have all of humanity including her own race destroyed. Tisk tisk 

Oh don't get me wrong.  I am not saying she is right.  I am just saying the speech (as a matter of fact several of the speeches/conversations during the show) was brilliant.  It's a pity not more people watched the show because in its own way the show was quite brilliant.  Of course reading the Netflix reviews you will see the people complaining about its feminist stance and the opposite that it was anti female but I thought it wrote all sides quite well.  It was able to write an angry slave and her remorseful owner, a spiteful wife who would commit any sin for love and her weak willed husband who ultimately loved another all with a great deal of compassion, insightfulness and just a dash of cruelty all of which should have been reserved for a top tier show not a niche show on a new and minor network.   

[natyxg]

I'm six episodes in and I'm disliking this season quite a bit. I'll summarize my feelings when I'm done.

[natyxg]

On 05/11/2017 at 5:36 PM, natyxg said:

I'm six episodes in and I'm disliking this season quite a bit. I'll summarize my feelings when I'm done.

So I'm done.

Augh.

It's hard to put into words why I was annoyed with this season, but I was.

My biggest problem I think was that I felt a shift from a more female perspective to a more male perspective. While before it felt like the women carried the show, I'm not sure they did this season, and it annoyed me.

Mary was mortal and couldn't kick ass like she used to, and was reduced to using her body to try to get stuff done, or to being tortured or terrorized by various people during longer than I would have liked.

Anne spent the season pathetically and frantically trying to win Cotton over (the most pathetic character on the show for me, by the way).

The Countess was basically gone.

Tituba came and went just to mess with people and stuff, but didn't feel like she had a lot of point of view.

Mercy was there... but just sort of there. She didn't feel like a driving force of any kind.

I felt like the show was mostly about the men, who were more driven and more active and got more of a point of view, and it annoyed me. Even Billy just existed for John (though she was pretty pointless).

The Devil, the Sentinel, John, Cotton, Isaac, etc, etc, I felt like the show was mostly theirs. It bothered me because the female centric nature of the show was the thing I liked the most, even though they were all evil.

I also really disliked Mary and Anne's story arcs.

In Mary's case it felt very... flat. Like too by the numbers. They were clearly "redeeming" her and setting her free (which is why they even made her mortal), and just felt hollow, it didn't grab me. Her remorse, her redemption or whatever, I just didn't buy it. Not because I thought she was incapable of it or anything, but because I found the writing flat. I liked Mary as a villain with layers in previous seasons, I thought she was amongst the best I've seen, but this season they took that away. Maybe that's why, maybe it's because they tried to fully take away the villain part and it didn't work for me. Mary was a victim who became a villain, that was part of her appeal, and in the end they tried to pass her off mostly as a victim. I guess the way they tried to dramatize her remorse and whatever didn't work for me? Maybe that was the problem? I don't know, but I didn't find it compelling. Still love Janet Montgomery, though. She was a joy to watch. Her love story with John was also annoying as always. In previous seasons I liked her love for John because it humanized her, but I liked it as a love she carried with her, yet that couldn't be. I never liked John too much. This season they went full force with them and... blah. Again, I felt it hollow and flat.

Anne's arc was even worse. They decided to make her into the biggest, most evil witch/person on the show... because Cotton Mather rejected her. COTTON MATHER. He was the most pathetic character of the show for me, absolutely pathetic. I thought it was laughable that they said he was a greaaaat soul and therefore his sacrifice would save Salem if the walked into hell voluntarily. Are. you. kidding. me. Then Evil Anne was just absolutely cartoonish, and it bothered me quite a bit how she took over the finale. After the entire show of Mary and everyone else fighting and fighting for the stuff they wanted, everything was resolved with one sweep the her hand, by Anne. It felt like the show/characters were robbed of a proper ending that fit the story they had been telling. But I guess they got a kick out of the implied open ending. It felt like the idea was that people would keep trying and trying to make Armageddon happen, but something would stop it and then rinse and repeat.

Things I did like:

Surprisingly, the thing I liked the most this season was.... Mercy's plot. Yes, I cannot believe it either. I couldn't stand her in previous seasons, but I felt her kinda, sorta, semi redemption was done better and more believably than Mary's. While I think a brothel is horrible, I did like that she created a place where the women felt safe, to the point where they even gave her their blood freely. I also liked that when she was at the brink of death she said that she didn't have the heart to ask the women for their blood and then they came and did it willingly. I also liked her twisted love story with the magistrate, and I liked that in the end all she wanted, rather than power, was to be loved. Adding humanity to evil characters makes them more compelling, for me. It's part of the reason why I also semi-liked Sebastian's plot, too. I believed he did love Mary (as well as someone like him could, anyway) and that made him more interesting/human.  Also, I thought Mercy's actress was better this year.

Well, damn, I can't think of anything else. Ummm, maybe the Sentinel getting a taste of humanity and wishing for more oranges at the end? I kind of did like that. Again, injecting some humanity into monsters.

Another thing to point out: they spent so much time going on and on and on about how terrible it was that they were going to destroy Salem and OH NO, WE MUST STOP IT... yet here I was hoping they would destroy it because it was such an ugly place full of terrible people, lol.

[natyxg]

Another thing that bothered me was how mortal characters could just defeat magical beings like that. I guess this is a general trope by this point, but it was annoying to watch Sebastian and John fight while thinking that Sebastian could just magically snap his neck with a hand movement and be done with it. But not only does he not do that, John kills him. Augh.

In cases like this I always remember season five of Buffy and that even though Glory was a goddess they made her share a body with a mortal and gave her limitations so that it would be more believable that the heroes could hold their own and eventually defeat her. But most shows don't really bother with stuff like this.

[Chaos Theory]

10 hours ago, natyxg said:

Another thing that bothered me was how mortal characters could just defeat magical beings like that. I guess this is a general trope by this point, but it was annoying to watch Sebastian and John fight while thinking that Sebastian could just magically snap his neck with a hand movement and be done with it. But not only does he not do that, John kills him. Augh.

In cases like this I always remember season five of Buffy and that even though Glory was a goddess they made her share a body with a mortal and gave her limitations so that it would be more believable that the heroes could hold their own and eventually defeat her. But most shows don't really bother with stuff like this.

In Johns case he wasn't exactly mortal.  He was a witch killer.  He killed a whole bunch of witches already.   

I get why people didn't like the third season.  I just disagree.  I found it to be  an awesome an fitting ending to the show.  All the storylines came to fitting conclusions for me.

Edited May 13, 2017 by Chaos Theory