Mary Margaret: Is Snow White Again?

[Camera One]

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The teacher C plot was mostly a way to introduce Jasmine and get her interacting with the main characters. Snow going back to teaching a way to do that.

That just underscores how little they care about Snow.  I mean, in "The Other Shoe", as part of this school "arc", they had her expressing that it would be a good idea to have Dr. Frankenstein and Dr. Jekyll on staff, as if she was planning to start her own school and be the principal.  There is no coherency in her subplot at all.  

As someone else said, it's incredibly insulting to the character.  Did Snow really need Jasmine to give her that advice?  She couldn't problem-solve how to teach "solving for x" better?  And another thing... isn't she supposed to be full of hope?  Because she seems down in the dumps with major self-esteem issues half the time.  It's almost as bad as Anna being the one to give David courage.

Edited October 20, 2016 by Camera One

[Camera One]

Another thing - Snow was such good friends with Cinderella in the flashbacks.  But they don't share a single scene in present-day, and Snow doesn't even get to look for Ashley.  The Writers really do treat the flashback character and the present character as separate entities instead of a whole person.

Edited October 20, 2016 by Camera One

[Camera One]

4 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Well, you see, Snow is a Hope Bot. She doesn't believe in danger, therefore it won't happen. It's kind of like driving off a cliff and saying, "Oh, the airbags will save me!" She does stupid things in the name of hope, and many times with disastrous consequences for those around her.

Except when she's completely not hopeful and is down in the dumps, like she was with Jasmine at the school after her failed lesson.  Or when she tells David it's only going to get harder to find the Untold Stories people in the season premiere.  

The only time she's hopeful is when she gives pep talks to Regina.  

[KingOfHearts]

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Except when she's completely not hopeful and is down in the dumps, like she was with Jasmine at the school after her failed lesson.  Or when she tells David it's only going to get harder to find the Untold Stories people in the season premiere.  

You're right. I find Snow to be a whiny hypocrite. 

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The only time she's hopeful is when she gives pep talks to Regina.  

Or when the plot needs her to use hope as an excuse to do something stupid. (Like go to the Underworld and leave her child behind.)

[Shanna Marie]

From the Relationships thread:

19 hours ago, Camera One said:

And look how she had no emotional reaction to having to leave the baby for an entire workday either. 

But this wasn't the first time she'd left the baby for a workday, which they seem to have forgotten. In the "normal life" montage at the start of 4B, they showed Snow back in the classroom. At that time, even if that was her first day back at work and it came at the end of the six-week gap, she'd barely have had a two-month maternity leave. I hope they have a good roster of subs because Snow's the least reliable teacher ever. I don't think we saw her in school or had any indication that she was teaching for the rest of that half season, so did she show up to build a birdhouse and then leave, did all her parts in the episodes take place after school or on weekends, or does the school shut down for villain emergencies? Then she was in Camelot for six weeks, doesn't seem to have taught during the weeks after Camelot, and then she was off to the Underworld. Maybe that explains how she went from birdhouses to physics -- her old job got taken over by someone else and she had to take on a new class.

[Camera One]

LOL... forget Snow White, the kids know her only as the Lady who talks about Birdhouses.

[profdanglais]

Teaching 101: Don't ask a huge question and then get flustered when no one volunteers to answer it. Break the question down and guide the students to the answer. Giving them information with no context and then expecting them to be able to apply it immediately and with no help is terrible teaching, and anyone who'd had any teacher training would know that. Most people wouldn't care, but I've been a teacher for 15 years, and this is pretty basic stuff. 

This isn't the worst misrepresentation of teaching techniques on TV, though. There was a scene in Homeland that had me screaming at the television.

[KingOfHearts]

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Teaching 101: Don't ask a huge question and then get flustered when no one volunteers to answer it. Break the question down and guide the students to the answer. Giving them information with no context and then expecting them to be able to apply it immediately and with no help is terrible teaching, and anyone who'd had any teacher training would know that. Most people wouldn't care, but I've been a teacher for 15 years, and this is pretty basic stuff. 

It's clear the writers know as much about teaching as they do psychiatry, relationships, and parenting.

[Mathius]

Upon reflection, I have come to the conclusion that there is literally no other character on the show who has become as far removed from how they started to the point of being unrecognizable than Snow White.  Every other character I can still recognize no matter how much they have been developed or ruined in any way, but Snow?  The character we have now isn't anything like the one we knew and loved from the old days.  Just about every single distinguishing trait she had has been stripped away, and we're left with a bland, unlikable character in her place.  Ginny deserved better.

Edited October 25, 2016 by Mathius

[YaddaYadda]

Last episode, I came to the conclusion that I actually really hate Snow. There is nothing good about the character. In the EF, she is now an elitist ass who decided that living a good life while she's untouched is a great victory just as her people suffer. She has revisionist history about the whole we're family, we don't keep secrets from each other, and I legit want her to stay away from Emma. 

As much as I loved her, especially in season 1, I just can't stand her and the rubbish that comes out of her mouth.

Edited October 25, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[Rumsy4]

She's a cardboard cutout figure now. I can't hate her because there's nothing to hate in a character that's been twisted beyond the point of recognition or believability. She's what the plot demands. 

[Shanna Marie]

As much as they claim that they're fleshing out the familiar stories and showing that there are shades of gray, etc., this Snow is even more of a cartoon than the cartoon version. There's no actual character there, just a bunch of platitudes about hope. And it's a shame because she was my favorite character in the beginning. I loved the bandit princess who fought a war to win back her kingdom and who managed to persist in finding contentment where she was, even under the curse. I still loved her in early season two, when she was showing off her badass self to her daughter while they were stuck in the Enchanted Forest. They've gradually chipped away at that until she's totally unrecognizable.

[Mathius]

Right, and as I said, it's so weird that this is the only case of it.  I can still watch Season 1 (and in Hook's case, Season 2), look at the characters then and look at them now in Season 6 and I still recognize them as those characters in spite of whatever changes they've gone through.  But not Snow. Heck, not even cursed Mary Margaret.  The character she is now is a totally new creation, and I don't like it.

It's a shame, for a while there in 5B it looked like we might just get the original character back.  Those hopes were dashed pretty quickly, eh?

Edited October 25, 2016 by Mathius

[Shanna Marie]

There are moments in the flashbacks when she's Original Recipe Snow. She was awful in the Count of Monte Cristo flashback ("oh, your village has been slaughtered, hey, come serve us wine!") but was good old Snow in the Cinderella flashback. That made the present version even more of a jolt (especially since she had nothing to do with Cinderella in the present, even though she was the one who was her friend in the past).

[Camera One]

Snow is arguably harder to write for than Regina and the other villains, maybe even harder than Emma, who has a lot of real-world pain the Writers can capitalize on.  On so many shows, characters like Snow eventually get pushed to the background, or killed of, and in this case, twisted beyond recognition into a prop for whatever the Writers need that particular week.   It is to me the saddest thing about the decline about this show.  And it continually gets worse and worse, when you think it couldn't get any worse.

[Camera One]

6 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Snow is only hopeful half the time. Sometimes she never stops, and others she prepares to die. Whenever Emma is in a bad situation, she tells herself to have hope like her mother would. But, in reality, her mother would probably be chanting "the end is near!"

That is very very true.  The Writers keep having the characters say one thing, but they have her doing the opposite.  We've seen Snow prepare to die how many times now?  Well no wonder because they make the heroes pathetically helpless.  Yeah, go find a sapling that can be snapped in half in an instant.  Good luck with that!

[KAOS Agent]

There was conversation about the moment people stopped liking Regina. I wanted to give you the moment in this show where I stopped caring about Snow. Surprisingly, it's not a moment that involves Emma.  Let's revisit this moment.

Edmond Dantes: We must find the Queen and make her pay.

Snowing: Well, that would make us no better than her. The best way to get our revenge is to show the Queen that no matter what she does, we can always find happiness.

Edmond Dantes: She destroyed my village, my vines, everything I have.

Snowing: Right. Well, perhaps you won't find happiness here. But maybe you will at our castle. We could use a wine steward.

What the hell even is this? It's like Snow is completely disassociated from people's pain and suffering. Edmond talks about how his life is in ruins and she responds that rather than capturing the Queen and imprisoning her, they work on making themselves happy. Edmond could totally come find happiness with them by serving them wine. Who are these people? His life was destroyed. His friends and neighbors are suffering as well - if they aren't lying dead in the middle of their burned out homes. Did Snowing find jobs for everyone in the kingdom whose lives were destroyed by their ridiculous way of getting revenge by "finding happiness"? I'm wondering why the hell there wasn't a revolt in the Enchanted Forest.  
 

Edited November 30, 2016 by KAOS Agent

[Camera One]

I guess Snow is faring better than Charming... he was completely off-screen in the latest episode.  Does she get an episode off in the spring when David finds out what happened to his father?  I guess now he can just say he's lying because they literally couldn't communicate.  I hope he admitted to Snow he lied before they faced the sleep cursing squad.

Edited November 30, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Snow is totally deaf to the suffering of others. She only cares about people if they're in her clique (dwarves + Granny + Cinderella + Red) or family tree. Even then, she's picky about what matters most. For example, in the Missing Year, the kingdom was important than Emma. But later with the Lost Souls water threat, it was obvious Emma's life was of greater value than all their royal subjects'. Her priorities change depending on what she feels at the moment. She takes some cues from her stepmother sometimes.

Snow is a character you could easily tear into. While Regina is more complexly flawed, Snow is more disappointing and has a steeper decline. She is nothing like her original recipe and consistently offends her own fans. She takes Regina's self-righteousness, and kicks it up to a 12. Since she gets far less to do, it's not always very apparent. Her flaws, however, are much easier to pinpoint and process. What began as bad writing turned into her character's very fabric.

Edited November 30, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I wonder if the Writers *think* they're writing a caring individual, though.  If so, it shows even more starkly how incredibly tone deaf they are.

[andromeda331]

I can't hate Snow, because the Writers have stripped her character of everything that made her so great and cool. She was someone who suffered greatly and overcame it all and defeated the woman who made her life miserable. She took her kingdom back and married Charming. Then had to send her baby away to keep her from being killed and to save them all. Snow returned briefly when she and Emma were in the Enchanted Forest keeping the ogre from killing Emma, tossing Aurora down when she had her at knife point. But the writers stripped that away, all her fighting skills, badass and willing to fight for what was right and won't let her deal with anything that has happened to her or have a relationship with her daughter. Yes, Snow was all about hope but she also was a fighter, she worked hard to overcome everything Regina threw at her, fighting against bad guys. The Snow we have now isn't the one we had in the beginning.

[YaddaYadda]

I just plain hate Snow this season. 

On top of the dialogue @KAOS Agent brought up which was so horrible, they just kept piling up. What's important for Snow is that people are heroes, she doesn't care about anything else.

The worst part for me in 6x02 was that the writing made it a point to remind the viewers that Snow and David were protected by Rumple. Regina couldn't touch them. She spared Regina's life, and she is protected from being harmed by that woman she basically unleashed on the people by letting her go. 

But people shouldnt' complain about stuff because they're still alive and you know, HOPE! 

Marie-Antoinette lost her head for shit like this.

Jasmine tells her about the magic lamp, mentions the price of magic and Snow tells her that she can now be a hero. WTF kind of advice is that? It's not like she doesn't remember that her father was murdered by the genie he freed and it all started with him finding the magic lamp.

Snow is better off asleep than awake. She's a moron who doesn't have her priorities straight.

Edited December 1, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[KingOfHearts]

I found Snow whiny and mildly annoying starting in 2B, with the dark spot stuff. But, the big turnoff for me, (surprisingly enough) was at the very beginning of the Missing Year. She had just lost her daughter and her grandson, and she immediately started ordering everyone around. Like... oh? Your throne is important now? Since when did you become a tactful leader? She didn't react to losing Emma at all. Snow said earlier she was going to help her daughter not feel like an orphan any more, then proceeded to not do anything when she really was an orphan again. She wasn't very committed, because she made that Echo Cave speech later and basically just said "screw it".

Edited December 1, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

They didn't explore her role as a leader either.  To the Writers, her main purpose for two episodes straight was to comfort Regina over losing Henry.  Showing Snow missing Emma or Henry was apparently too boring, or whatever.   The whole plot was to get everyone to the palace, where Regina would face Zelena.  

[Shanna Marie]

I think Snow suffers mostly from taking the brunt of the Regina Exception Clause/Victim Sue designation. All the things that were awesome about season one and 2A Snow clash with the Victim Sue narrative, so they had to go by the wayside. We can't really have much of snarky, spunky Bandit Snow without reminding us of why she was forced into banditry. The Snow we saw in season one would never have become good friends with the woman who did all that stuff to her, especially with no apology and not even any guarantee that she wouldn't do it again, so she got turned into a meek cheerleader for Regina. She's not allowed to mourn the separation from her daughter and grandson because that might have taken away from Regina's tears. Regina's relationship with Robin had to be propped up, so Snow had to tell her adultery was totally okay since she did it, too, but she couldn't mention that when she did it, it was because she was under Regina's curse and Regina was manipulating events to keep Snow and David apart, and we definitely can't be reminded that Regina spray painted "whore" on Snow's car when that was going on. The relationships between Regina and Emma and Regina and Snow are too important for them to waste any time on the relationship between Snow and Emma, so it looks like Snow doesn't care about her daughter. It would be just about impossible to write season one Snow while writing Regina the way she has been written since 2B without their entire story universe imploding.

[Rumsy4]

8 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

I think Snow suffers mostly from taking the brunt of the Regina Exception Clause/Victim Sue designation.

I agree, and this is why I don't hate Snow. She's been twisted beyond recognition, Snow's barely real. 

[InsertWordHere]

On 12/1/2016 at 8:02 PM, Rumsy4 said:

 Snow's barely real. 

Barely real but on a real show. It's totally okay then if Regina rips out her heart and crushes it!

[Rumsy4]

22 minutes ago, InsertWordHere said:

Barely real but on a real show. It's totally okay then if Regina rips out her heart and crushes it!

:-( I know I bash Snow a lot, but that scene seriously upset me. I hate this Show sometimes (a lot).

[KingOfHearts]

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Snow's barely real. 

She's from an AU, so she's fake. The real Snow is stuck in a universe where Daniel never died. She was a happy motherless princess who became BFFs with a kind, selfless Regina. She met David, a prince with a loving father, while picking dandelions in the meadow. They got married, had Emma, and made Regina the godmother. They're all living happily ever after. (And Henry doesn't exist there.)

Edited December 6, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

5 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

And Henry doesn't exist there.)

Hmmm... where can I find this AU? Sounds perfect to me.

[KingOfHearts]

I'm actually alright with Snow being a terrible mother. It falls in line with her EF persona, actually. After she Charming, she started making questionable choices that endangered other people. She let a mass murderer escape execution, she lobotomized her fetus, put darkness into another baby, and threw her newborn into a wardrobe. She has no precedent for being a responsible parent, but the expectation probably stems from Mary Margaret. Even though she was just Emma's roommate, she did things a mother should do. She comforted her in the dark times, she cared about her, and maintained an honest relationship with her. The MM relationship was earned, while the Snow's parent/child dynamic felt more obligatory.

What I do have a problem with is Emma's lack of reaction and the false image that everything is fine and dandy. I can dislike Snow as a character for what she does, and that's fine, but it's much more frustrating when the show mishandles it. Making a character heavily flawed doesn't them badly written. It's when the plot and other characters start bending around these flaws that it becomes a black hole. There's plenty of characters I hate on Lost, but I don't hate the show, nor do I fault the writers for writing those characters. (Mostly.) If I felt the show was forcing me to agree with or like those characters, then I'd get angry.

Edited February 1, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

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and threw her newborn into a wardrobe.

I know Regina has cited that before, but what else could she have done?  I don't see that as an example of terrible parenting.  

One of the few things Emma has gotten mad at Snow for was the Lily/baby mess, which was a convoluted mess of a retcon, so it felt artificial and contrived.  

Based on the "rules" of this show, if Snow had executed Regina, she would have had blackness in her heart and she would have been a bad person for it.  And as if Rumple would have let that happen.  He was in the crowd for a reason.  Going through with the execution would have done nothing to stop Regina from threatening the people in the kingdom.

Edited February 1, 2017 by Camera One

[daxx]

Rumple likely would have saved Regina but at least Snow would look better. Letting Regina go because she couldn't hurt Snow or Charming was selfish.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

I know Regina has cited that before, but what else could she have done?  I don't see that as an example of terrible parenting.  

I had already posted about this in the Morality thread, so I won't go into it. One thing I have remembered since then is that Rumple said, "Bring the child to safety", so I guess they did have to do that in order for the prophecy to work. Regina and Emma have both cited the wardrobe as a bad decision, and I've wondered if they had any ground to stand on. Blue and Geppeto are the only ones at fault there, imo. The original plan was for Snow to raise Emma in LWM, but because of the lies and Geppeto taking his sweet time to build the fancy wardrobe with all the intricacies, August was the baby's only escort. (Why couldn't Blue get *anyone* else to craft a crude wardrobe?! Surely she has connections with more than one carpenter.)

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Rumple likely would have saved Regina but at least Snow would look better. Letting Regina go because she couldn't hurt Snow or Charming was selfish.

Yeah, this. Snow didn't know Rumple needed Regina alive. 

Edited February 1, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

Snow's actions (or inaction as it were) against the Evil Queen on behalf of her subjects has been made even worse once she declared to the Count of Monte Cristo that Snowing's happiness was their revenge. Snowing is happy (yay we drink wine!) while villagers are being slaughtered on the regular. Snow is a horrible leader because she put her own personal inability to make the hard choices over the lives and safety of her people. The people in her kingdom and her daughter paid the price.

One of the things I take issue with Snowing regarding Emma was deciding to have a baby the day after being directly threatened by the Evil Queen. I understand the idea that you can't put your life on hold because something bad might happen (i.e. don't let the terrorist win), but if someone comes in and basically says I've got a nuclear weapon that I'm about to unleash, that's pretty much the time to not focus on baby making and instead learn what form that weapon is in and how to stop it. Delaying having a baby for a few months isn't letting Regina win, it's making a choice that's best for both parents and baby. Instead they went with the hope route and their baby was the one to ultimately suffer.

Let's not forget that they also heard the prophecy that Emma would save them all and went all in on the wardrobe idea without even bothering to try to stop Regina some other way. There was that time where Maleficent was like hey let's work to stop Regina and Snow got all self righteous and refused to work with her on the grounds that Snow was good and Maleficent was evil. Snow won't compromise herself to save her kingdom and her child. Nice sentiment, but highly selfish and some might argue immoral considering the cost to others just so that Snow can feel good about herself.

 

Edited February 1, 2017 by KAOS Agent

[Camera One]

There was that time where Maleficent was like hey let's work to stop Regina and Snow got all self righteous and refused to work with her on the grounds that Snow was good and Maleficent was evil. Snow won't compromise herself to save her kingdom and her child. Nice sentiment, but highly selfish and some might argue immoral considering the cost to others just so that Snow can feel good about herself.

This was the exact take-home message of that episode, so I guess they were successful.  Snowing watched Maleficent murder three guards that very day, so she would have been a fool to trust her.  But then again, inconsistency reigns since Snow was apparently willing to go to Rumple to find a way to end the Curse.

[KingOfHearts]

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This was the exact take-home message of that episode, so I guess they were successful.  Snowing watched Maleficent murder three guards that very day, so she would have been a fool to trust her.  But then again, inconsistency reigns since Snow was apparently willing to go to Rumple to find a way to end the Curse.

I don't think the issue was trust. Maleficent would not have a motive to betray them, seeing how they were all in danger and she also had a child to protect. Look at this exchange:

Quote

Snow: Not with you.
Maleficent: Why not?
Snow: Because of what you are. If we succumb to darkness just to defeat this curse, our child will be doomed to that darkness as well.
Maleficent: You would risk the kingdom to ensure your child grows up a hero?
Snow: Charming and I will win, but we won't compromise who we are to do it. I won't become like you.

It's the same ill-conceived morality play that made Snow release Regina from prison. Even though she was risking the entire kingdom, her "goodness" was more important. (As well as her own flesh and blood as opposed to everyone else's.) She thought sitting atop her high horse would lead her to victory, but it actually left her cursed for 28 years. Yes, the curse was broken, but not before decades at Regina's mercy. Is that really winning? I'm not saying Maleficent would have been able to stop the curse, just that Snow was flippant for not going to desperate measures to protect the lives of her citizens. (And, ironically, her child as well.) The eggnapping just makes everything worse, because apparently kidnapping children is okay but working with a villain for the greater good is not.

Edited February 1, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[andromeda331]

Its really what makes her look stupid. She didn't want to execute Regina, she halted it. Okay, fine not everyone is interested in executing criminals. But letting her go? At least lock her up somewhere and have Regina escape. I really hate that they had Regina arrested and sentence but then Snow lets her go. She doesn't come of looking justified or even showing mercy to someone who had been so horrible to her. Why not just have Regina escape when she was defeated? That would make more sense Regina would have escaped or disappeared in a purple haze and hadn't been seen until Snow's wedding day. And maybe by that point little Emma was on the way. But the Snow who was a bandit, who lead an army to fight Regina and was horrified when she saw the slayed villagers? That Snow wouldn't have made dumb mistakes. Is the Cricket Game the first episode where Snow starts to become stupid? First with Past-Snow letting Regina go instead of executing her or locking her up somewhere. She offers Regina of all people her heart, wanting to save Regina even if it means killing the entire town, don't forget her killing Cora was taking the easy way out. In just the episode before the Cricket Game she was fighting against Cora.

[Camera One]

That's the writers' MO.  Making her look stupid, incompetent, useless, weak, full of dumb platitudes and of course hypocritical.   So no one complains when she's asleep every alternate episode.

Edited February 1, 2017 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

18 hours ago, Camera One said:

I know Regina has cited that before, but what else could she have done?  I don't see that as an example of terrible parenting.  

Taken in conjunction with how lame the Dark Curse turned out to be, and Snow's general modus operandi of selfish blind hope, it doesn't make it look like a good decision to send an infant alone into a magical wardrobe.

Quote

That's the writers' MO.  Making her look stupid, incompetent, useless, weak, full of dumb platitudes and of course hypocritical.  

Yeah--they've ruined Snow. There's no salvaging her character at this point.

[tri4335]

15 hours ago, Camera One said:

That's the writers' MO.  Making her look stupid, incompetent, useless, weak, full of dumb platitudes and of course hypocritical.   So no one complains when she's asleep every alternate episode.

 

26 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

Taken in conjunction with how lame the Dark Curse turned out to be, and Snow's general modus operandi of selfish blind hope, it doesn't make it look like a good decision to send an infant alone into a magical wardrobe.

Yeah--they've ruined Snow. There's no salvaging her character at this point.

The above is why I chuckle that people think if GG's contract is up she would sign on as recurring. There is nothing exciting about this character and I find it difficult to imagine she is all gun-ho to keep playing Snow.  I figure if there is any contract she is working on it is how to get a bigger slice of the Zootopia 2 pie. I guess there could be other factors like working with Josh but really both have been sidelined so much that not resigning appears to be the better option IMO.

Edited February 1, 2017 by tri4335

[KingOfHearts]

19 minutes ago, tri4335 said:

I guess there could be other factors like working with Josh but really both have been sidelined so much that not resigning appears to be the better option IMO.

From what I've heard, they've been really good about work/life balance and giving her the time off she needs for her kids. That's probably more important to her than stretching out her acting chops. However, if she gets less pay for staying, that could be a factor too. Do actors with top billing (her, Robert and Jen) get paid more?

Edited February 1, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[orza]

Steady paychecks is a pretty good argument to stay on and negotiate a light filming schedule. Ginny can still do a Zootopia sequel if she wants to. The studio and show runners have been very accommodating. She can be pregnant again for most of the season and they won't mind. Right now voice acting is her best option. It's unlikely that she will be offered any more leading lady roles.

Compensation is very individual and depends on one's current market value and how good one's agent is at getting the best possible deal. So no, they all don't get paid anywhere near the same.

[Shanna Marie]

16 hours ago, Camera One said:

That's the writers' MO.  Making her look stupid, incompetent, useless, weak, full of dumb platitudes and of course hypocritical.

Except the weird thing is that the show presents her as being right and backs this up with the opinions of the other characters. We were supposed to see her as having made the right decision to free Regina -- wouldn't it have been awful if she'd executed her when she was later able to turn good and be a hero? (never mind all the people who died between the time she was freed and the time she turned good, not to mention their society having been destroyed by the curse) Then they backed this up when Snow killed Cora and that was shown to be the wrong decision, with every other character on the show criticizing her for it and physical evidence in the black spot on her heart. So, basically, this show's world's morality is that it's okay to let innocent people die as long as you don't do anything to get your own hands dirty. Snow is depicted as being good and virtuous for showing mercy to Regina, and her only real failure was in killing Cora (well, aside from the eggbaby stuff, but the show seems to have decided -- wisely -- to forget that, while they bring up Snow "murdering" Cora at least once per season). Not one character has ever advocated for the people who were killed because Snow freed Regina. Really, no one advocates for any of Regina or Cora's victims. Remember Percival -- apparently killing him was perfectly okay and didn't result in a black spot on anyone's heart.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Except the weird thing is that the show presents her as being right and backs this up with the opinions of the other characters. 

This is my main problem with the skewed morality. If she was uppity on her own merit and the other characters were allowed to disagree with her without always being portrayed as wrong for doing so, she would be an interesting character. Snow White has always been the most traditional Disney princess and Once is the perfect opportunity to compare her values with other, perhaps more realistic ones. I could buy it if Snow had the "heroes don't kill" mentality and had mercy on Regina, but what I don't buy is everyone else going along with it.

The Emma/Snow relationship is actually hindered by this. Emma has to agree with Snow and there's no different perspectives at play with equal opportunities. 

I find it difficult resolving Snow's various personalities. Bandit Snow and Cursed Mary Margaret conflict with Queen Snow and Post-Curse Snow. I feel as though Bandit Snow or MM would kill to save a life, but the others would not. Bandit Snow was carrying around dust from the Black Fairy to squish Regina with, and MM kicked Jefferson out of a high window without remorse.

I just realized - Snow tried to shoot Cora through the heart in 2A without even flinching. Hook too.

Edited February 1, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

Snow never makes any sense. Remember back on her honeymoon went she went off to kill Medusa with some half ass plan to turn Regina to stone? There was Medusa doing her own thing in her cave, not bothering anyone, and in walks Snowing to chop off her head. How is that okay? How is that not murder? Poor Medusa's house was invaded and she was essentially murdered. How does that work with Snow's moral position that heroes don't kill? Even worse, they walked out of there after Medusa was turned to stone and decided stopping Regina was silly and they should just make a baby, so Medusa died for no reason. 

[KingOfHearts]

14 minutes ago, KAOS Agent said:

Snow never makes any sense. Remember back on her honeymoon went she went off to kill Medusa with some half ass plan to turn Regina to stone? There was Medusa doing her own thing in her cave, not bothering anyone, and in walks Snowing to chop off her head. How is that okay? How is that not murder? Poor Medusa's house was invaded and she was essentially murdered. How does that work with Snow's moral position that heroes don't kill? Even worse, they walked out of there after Medusa was turned to stone and decided stopping Regina was silly and they should just make a baby, so Medusa died for no reason. 

And what was Snow going to do with Charming's sword at her wedding? Open a letter for Regina?

How did an entire war happen without killing anyone? Did they take all of Regina's forces as captives? (Or you know, wine stewards...)

Edited February 2, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

20 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

Snow never makes any sense.

I think Snow made sense up until 2B, and then she was sacrificed on the altar of Regina. Everything changed from the moment that they decided that Regina was the victim, really, from that moment they zoomed in on Regina's tears when she wasn't invited to dinner with her victims rather than showing us the first Charming family dinner after everyone got their memories back and was reunited. After that, showing Regina as the victim, no matter what she did, while "redeeming" her and meanwhile also trying to make her redemption more dramatic required Snow to be all over the place, morally. I really even got the impression that she was supposed to be in the wrong in the flashback with the village slaughter, since it was as though the really horrible thing wasn't the pile of bodies or the person who created them, but rather Snow's stance that she couldn't forgive Regina for that level of atrocity. They seemed to be saying that Regina might have been redeemed then, since Snow was getting through to her, if she hadn't found the bodies and hardened her heart against poor, sad Regina.

Then it continued with it being right for Snow to let Regina go and wrong to kill Cora. She was supposed to have found another way, but they've never said what that might have been. Every so often, they seem to remember that Snow was once a badass, so they come up with something like the Medusa story, only it makes no sense and doesn't fit with what they've shown us of Snow. They can't do what they want with Regina's character and how she's perceived without permanently damaging Snow's character, since forgiving and accepting what Regina did to her and her kingdom is just about impossible to imagine. I kind of get the feeling that they're regretting making Snow be innocent and having had good intentions in what she did to Regina, and that's why they keep repeating the "I was such a brat" refrain, like if they say it often enough, we'll remember season one a different way and think that Snow betrayed Regina deliberately and vindictively.

[andromeda331]

Its really disappointing because they really could have given Snow something really good. I remember after Johanna died when Snow decided she was done loosing people. That...could have been really fun to watch. Snow spent her entire life trying to do the right thing, to be good, to have faith and all that. But that point her father had been was murdered, her kingdom stolen, she'd been on the run, cursed 28 years away from her husband and forced to send her daughter away and missed out on raising her especially when she had been planning on going with Emma, Emma had a crappy childhood, then just watched her nanny murdered and learned her mother had also been murdered. That could have been a really great moment when she's had enough and fights back giving it as good as she got or maybe she finally breaks and goes down a road of anger, depression and bitterness. There's so much they could have done with Snow. With Snow and Charming, Snow and Emma its so disappointing that we got none of it.

[Camera One]

And she's not done losing people.  Yet the Writers didn't even show Snow finding out that her beloved handmaiden Charlotte had died, much less mourn her.  The Count of Monte Cristo's death should have given Snowing pause, but no, the episode wasn't about them, not truly.  Snow also never found out that Rumple was behind Charlotte being poisoned.  Wouldn't that have given the random C Plot with Snow and Belle a little bit of edge, if Snow was angry about what Rumple did to Charlotte?  I know people dismiss her lack of screentime as what the actress probably wants to be with her baby, but they could use her in such better ways even if screentime had to be reduced.