S06.E01: The Savior

[KingOfHearts]

 The most meaningless line award goes to the Oracle: "The future's always in motion, always changing, but also inevitable."

More like an oxymoron. If the future can change, then Emma's death is not inevitable. Maybe they'll pull a That's So Raven and the vision isn't what it seems. Hopefully, Aladdin can get us some answers if and when we see him again.

I was half-expecting the Oracle to have eyes in her hands.

[YaddaYadda]

I took it more to mean that one can't avoid their fate. It's like that bullshit Merlin kept spewing last year. Or what the Seer told Rumple that no matter what he would have done, gone into battle or fled like he did, the end result was going to be the same. As far as hopeful messages go, that one basically sucks. All roads will lead you to your doom.

Pretty much why I think Robin was a marked man in season 5. Emma only bought him time when she healed him.

Edited October 2, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[Shanna Marie]

Upon a rewatch, I'm even more inclined to think that the reaction to Emma's ills is so very contrived. While Emma probably could use some therapy, it was an overkill response to what her family observed. After all she's been through, this is what they decide she needs therapy for? And if it was meant to be about her overall issues -- from growing up in foster care, thinking she was abandoned to getting betrayed and ditched by friends and lovers to previous boyfriends all dying, to being the Dark One and having to kill the man she loved -- then sending Archie to the dirigible was the wrong way to go about it because it made it about the one or two incidents rather than the lifetime of trauma. That was weird timing. I know they hate the "doing dishes" conversations, but that's a "doing dishes" conversation: "Wow, honey, you've really been through a lot lately, and while you're handling it well, it might help to talk about it with someone. You know, get a fresh start, get used to being yourself and in the land of the living again."

As it was, when Emma came to Hook at the end to reassure him that she was okay and was seeing Archie, what he'd seen so far was really more appropriate for her to say something like, "Sorry I was snippy with you earlier, but I had a Snickers, and now I feel much better." Not to mention that if anyone needs therapy, Hook should be high on the list, but it seems that they've forgotten he was dead a few days ago.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

On 9/25/2016 at 9:48 PM, Mathius said:

Regina encouraged Zelena to go after Hades and try to change him, Hades manipulated Zelena then killed Robin, and Regina blames Zelena for it.

It was first Zelena's idea to go to Hades, though. Regina just supported her and trusted her judgment (after initially not trusting it and trying to take her memory), which turned out to be wrong.

[Shanna Marie]

I found this one hard to rewatch, mostly out of frustration. I got through it by doing crossword puzzles. After a skim through the thread, I think my thoughts generally stand, and perhaps even more so now.

I think the thing that's most frustrating is all the Savior nonsense, with the shaky hands, uselessness, doomed destiny, and prophecy of death. It's bad enough that the way they're treating the Savior mythology is a total retcon, since in season one it was treated as though Emma was only the Savior for this particular curse, since her DNA was incorporated into it to create a backdoor for breaking it, and Rumple was even surprised when she turned out to have magical powers in season two. It didn't sound then like anyone had any idea that a Savior was a thing. But it's worse here because not only is being a Savior a terrible burden, but now we find out it's a death sentence, and before Saviors can get rid of their burden, they're made useless by these shakes. So, what's the point of a Savior if he/she can't actually do anything when they're most needed? And what's really glaring when you're doing a rapid watch like this is that for us, it's only been a week and not months since we last had to listen to Regina whine about how horrible her life is, and it's only been months instead of years since they devoted a whole season to Regina whining about how villains don't get happy endings. Even the writers go on about Regina being such an underdog and getting the short end of the stick. And yet Emma, as Savior, supposedly isn't going to get a happily ever after, in spite of being obligated to spend her life sacrificing for others. So who does get a happy ending? How can Regina always get the short end of the stick when Emma's there, sacrificing herself left and right and never getting a moment's rest (or an ounce of gratitude) and she doesn't stand a chance of a happy ending because she's got a prophecy of doom hanging over her? It's utterly ridiculous.

And now that we've seen the whole series, we know

Spoiler

that there's no twist or surprise to the prophecy. It pretty much happens exactly that way, only the death is cured by a quick TLK. That makes for the most boring prophecy ever. There's not even the thing where all the stuff Emma does to avoid the prophecy is what ends up making it happen. It's just a straightforward "these things will happen" and then they do. Even having the full context doesn't change the meaning of the vision.

The stuff with Belle and her baby, who already is smarter about what his father is than his mother is, is satisfying here, but alas

Spoiler

we now know she ends up going back to Rumple, anyway. You've got to wonder how Gideon feels after season seven, considering that ,while he was still in school, his parents moved to a place where his mother would age faster and die, and then his father went through a portal and lived in another world and then died, seemingly without a single thought for his son. I guess that whole prophecy ended up coming true, after all. At the very least, he could have told Whook to check in on Gideon or have his counterpart who was friends with Belle keep an eye on the kid so he wouldn't be utterly alone in the world.

The way they dealt with the Untold Stories thing was weird (and as I recall, there were a lot of reshoots, which led to a disjointed episode). They watched the dirigible crash and ran right there, but it was already empty. All the people had somehow managed to get off the ship, out of the wreckage, and run off without passing the people who ran up to the crash the moment it happened. In that crash, no one was injured badly enough to not be able to run away, or at least not be able to run fast enough to be gone by the time the Storybrookers got there?

Before I rewatched this one, I found myself feeling a little sad that we don't have too much longer to go in the rewatch. We'll be out of episodes in a few months. And then I watched it and realized that much of what I liked about this show was its potential, the idea of it, as well as discussing that potential. I generally only enjoy the occasional moment in the show itself. But seeing Jafar in the teaser flashback made me wonder if anyone wants to do a Wonderland rewatch/discussion after we finish this one (if it's still available for viewing -- I suspect it'll be moved from the ABC app to Disney+ in the fall when it launches, along with the mother series).

[Camera One]

I watched 15 minutes of this episode and it was just so bad.

The dialogue was atrocious.  Why would Emma bring up her parents when she and Hook were on the couch kissing?  It makes sense she would mention Henry since he lived there part-time, but her parents?  Later on, there was an exchange that was supposed to be funny with Emma saying she didn't mean to be "anti-cricket" but the lines were so clunky that I felt badly for the actress and couldn't blame her for not making it work.

They went out of their way to give Regina a conversation with Snow.  And then paired Emma with Archie sent by Snowing?  As I thought at the time, you'd think Jennifer Morrison refused to work with Ginny and Josh or something.  

I realized the only part of the episode which peaked my interest was (surprisingly) Regina and Zelena living together.  But it immediately derailed with Regina getting into a snit about the lost feather.  They could have come up with any other reason.

Who cares if Rumple gave the town to Hyde?  Why would that mean anything?  How did Hyde end up with such powerful magic that the combined magic of Regina and the all-unpowerful Savior couldn't subdue him?  

I had to scoff every time they uttered nonsense like "Nothing is more dangerous than an untold story and the people who don't want them told" or "These stories playing out" is soooo dangerous.

Spoiler

When this doesn't pan out in the next few episodes at all.  If anything, the people in the Land of Untold Stories were refugees, or people biding their time like Lady Tremaine.  Why would their stories "play out" like it's inevitable?

Did the Aladdin intro even match what we saw in subsequent flashbacks?   Who was the messenger?  Who was the Oracle?  Oh wait, none of that matters.

I wish Gideon was Morpheus.  He was a lot more interesting that way.  

I couldn't care less about Rumple's quest to wake Belle.

So Blue wouldn't know anything about the Tremors?  At least have Emma go talk to her first.  

Those 15 minutes just got me incensed.  Time to stop before I succumb to my darkness.

[Shanna Marie]

10 hours ago, Camera One said:

I watched 15 minutes of this episode and it was just so bad.

That's why I ended up doing crossword puzzles while it played in the background, and I didn't even make it past the Aladdin teaser before I reached for the puzzle book.

10 hours ago, Camera One said:

How did Hyde end up with such powerful magic that the combined magic of Regina and the all-unpowerful Savior couldn't subdue him?  

My guess, based on what happens to him later, is

Spoiler

that it has something to do with the fact that the only way to kill Hyde is to kill Jekyll. If they'd blasted Jekyll with all that magic, it might have affected Hyde.

Though that doesn't explain why the stun gun thingie worked on him.

In general, it's a pretty sloppy episode. It seems from comments in the thread from the time of airing that there were a lot of reshoots, so the episode was essentially written in the editing room. That would explain stuff like David talking about not being able to find Hyde while Hyde is locked up in jail and stuff like the Storybrookers not finding any people at the crash site even though they got there right after the crash. Then there's Hook's fresh haircut and barely grown scruff even though this supposedly picks up immediately after last season's finale (they're wearing the same clothes), when he had the long, floppy hair. I guess he stopped by the barber on the way to Emma's house for a makeout session. And then there's everyone getting so concerned about Emma when she's mildly spacey and has a few hand tremors after she drove to and from New York in the last 24 hours and has just finished a drive from New York to Maine. The other characters must have read the script to see all the prophecy and vision stuff and to know what was going on with Aladdin in the past because based on what they knew, you'd think they'd have assumed that she was just tired. I get spacey and shaky after a four-hour road trip. I don't know how long it is from New York to Maine, but my guess is it's longer than that, and she was trapped in a Bug with Regina, Henry, and Violet. It's a miracle that her head isn't spinning in circles and that she's forming complete sentences. It's definitely not cause to send a shrink to talk to her (Emma certainly could use therapy, but not for what they knew of at the time).

[Camera One]

8 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

and stuff like the Storybrookers not finding any people at the crash site even though they got there right after the crash. 

Maybe it crashed really deep into the forest, and it took an hour to hike there?

They could have travelled their by magic but sometimes they seem to enjoy walking instead.

[Camera One]

About The Oracle:

Quote

Jane Espenson on Twitter: "She's an original character who fulfills the function of an oracle. I wouldn't say she's based on anything but general concept." 

Quote

Jose A. @JorynAOlson is your Oracle based off Delphi or the one from Aladdin 3 or both?

Actress who played Oracle (Jordyn Ashley Olson) on Twitter: "It was a bit of both. I liked the story of Delphi and The presence the Oracle gave off in the movie. Good question!😘" 

I do find it funny how the actors try to bring depth or meaning to characters that was meant to have neither (even though this show was supposed to draw on all sorts of stories).  Good on her for that.  I thought the Oracle was an intriguing character.

Edited June 30, 2019 by Camera One

[tennisgurl]

@Camera One those Twitter exchanges really are this whole show in a nutshell, especially the later seasons. While the fans and many of the performers (including minor and supporting characters) and people behind the scenes are really trying to make this stuff work, while the head writers and show runners are just half assing it and can barley be bothered to give a fuck about their own show. Like, of course these writers couldn't be bothered to learn about any of the other Aladdin movies other than the first one (despite it being supposedly what this whole arc is about) and the fact that the third movie actually has a character named The Oracle who starts the plot off by telling Aladdin a prophesy, and having that actually be the character here, or some other famous oracle or fortune teller, would just be too much work I guess, so just make her some random exposition machine instead. Of course. 

This whole thing with Emma is just such garbage, its the storytelling equivalent of nails on a chalkboard. Those savior shakes (lamest dance craze ever) are just so out of nowhere and goofy looking, and this whole "line of Saviors who will all die tragically) is one of the worst and most unnecessary retcons this show has ever done, and that really saying something! Poor Emma, started as the hero of this show, and is now just a hallow shell of her former self, practically crying and shrinking away from Hyde of all people, who is just some random guy and not even one of the worst threats she has ever faced, having her stupid shakes, and losing it over what looks like a really lame sword fight. And she even ditches Hook, her one true love who just came back from the dead, to go on these stupid mopey side quests and then wont tell him any of it because...walls? You would think you would want to be spend some time with your recently resurrected loved one, but I guess not! Because god forbid Emma and Hook get just one nice scene together, or just get to have some fun adventures with the new untold story people, but I guess not, because WALLS.  God this season makes me hate walls, I want to become a construction worker so I can have an excuse to destroy them!

No way to I buy that any version of Aladdin would just sit around like a chump while some poor guy begging for his help is turned to ash. God this is already stupid. Also, while the steampunk blimp was cool (it actually seemed like different genres of story were actually coming together for the first time) where did all those torches come from? Did they bring the, or did the Merry Men leave them laying around the forest or something?

[Camera One]

17 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

where did all those torches come from? 

They borrowed them from The Others on "Lost".

[Melgaypet]

The Land of Untold Stories is a stupid name, right? Especially since Strange Case of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde is hardly some obscure tale. (Nor Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea or The Count of Monte Cristo or One Thousand and One Nights* or...) The Land of Unfinished Stories would be more accurate. Or, if all stories on the show are unfinished, the Land of Interrupted Stories? The Land Without Time? The Land of the Perpetual Pause Button?

*I'm mildly surprised that they didn't do anything with Scheherazade being an Author. Or would that make too much sense? Not that I really wanted any more Author nonsense.

Edited July 1, 2019 by Melgaypet

[andromeda331]

3 hours ago, Melgaypet said:

The Land of Untold Stories is a stupid name, right? Especially since Strange Case of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde is hardly some obscure tale. (Nor Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea or The Count of Monte Cristo or One Thousand and One Nights* or...) The Land of Unfinished Stories would be more accurate. Or, if all stories on the show are unfinished, the Land of Interrupted Stories? The Land Without Time? The Land of the Perpetual Pause Button?

*I'm mildly surprised that they didn't do anything with Scheherazade being an Author. Or would that make too much sense? Not that I really wanted any more Author nonsense.

Or how badly they would mess up Scheherazade. 

[Shanna Marie]

21 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

This whole thing with Emma is just such garbage, its the storytelling equivalent of nails on a chalkboard. Those savior shakes (lamest dance craze ever) are just so out of nowhere and goofy looking, and this whole "line of Saviors who will all die tragically) is one of the worst and most unnecessary retcons this show has ever done, and that really saying something! Poor Emma, started as the hero of this show, and is now just a hallow shell of her former self, practically crying and shrinking away from Hyde of all people, who is just some random guy and not even one of the worst threats she has ever faced, having her stupid shakes, and losing it over what looks like a really lame sword fight.

To some extent, the constant torture and peril and dark cloud of doom Emma gets is appropriate for the protagonist of a TV series. Look at what happens to the brothers on Supernatural or the main characters of just about any series.

The problem with what happens with Emma is that she so seldom is allowed any agency to actually deal with all the stuff that's thrown at her, so she doesn't get the triumph to go with the suffering.

Then, to make matters worse, while she has a constant black cloud hanging over her head and can never get five minutes of happiness, the show keeps throwing its sympathy to Regina and treats her like the one who goes through non-stop suffering.

[Camera One]

The whole prophesy thing has been done before on other shows, and it rarely turns out well, but I think it was done particularly badly on this show.  On some shows, the characters might go out and learn more about the prophesy and there might be steps to avert it.  But you already could predict that the Oracle would only give Emma bad news.  I don't remember exactly but wasn't her information pretty much the same thing that Hyde says?  

Spoiler

And then we find out in a later flashback that Blue knew all along that all Saviors die.

And we also find out later this season that all Authors go crazy with seizures.  And then Older Henry shows no signs of that.

The prophesies on this show suck.