Greenleaf - General Discussion

[wanderingstar]

The Unfortunate Truth about Grace and Noah's Relationship

Interesting thoughts from showrunner Craig Wright

[Arcadiasw]

11 hours ago, Gillian Rosh said:

The Unfortunate Truth about Grace and Noah's Relationship

Interesting thoughts from showrunner Craig Wright

Proof once again Grace and Noah are overdue for a long talk.

[Neurochick]

18 hours ago, Gillian Rosh said:

The Unfortunate Truth about Grace and Noah's Relationship

Interesting thoughts from showrunner Craig Wright

Thank you for the link.  I liked what Wright said.  There is a trope in movies and TV where the answer is yes, yes they can get that back, but IRL, I think the answer is no; simply because too much has happened and Noah and Grace are two different people now.

[wanderingstar]

Neurochick, I agree with you. It's not realistic that Noah and Grace could recapture the relationship they had as 19/20-year-olds. And based on what Wright said, I'm guessing they will find that out after several false starts at rekindling their relationship. 

[Dee]

While I agree it would be impossible for Grace & Noah to recapture their old dynamic, because they are no longer are who they once were, they could still make a relationship work.

It would mean honestly addressing the personal changes within themselves and each other, but seeing as Noah is, imo, being used to keep Grace morally compromised I doubt it will ever happen.

[Arcadiasw]

On Sunday, August 21, 2016 at 6:42 PM, Dee said:

While I agree it would be impossible for Grace & Noah to recapture their old dynamic, because they are no longer are who they once were, they could still make a relationship work.

It would mean honestly addressing the personal changes within themselves and each other, but seeing as Noah is, imo, being used to keep Grace morally compromised I doubt it will ever happen.

It seems Grace has accepted they can't get back what they once had but Noah thinks they can. Mixed signals are sent by both. I wonder if Grace is reluctant to tell Noah her feelings in fear of losing their chance to be just friends. I think her family has emotionally damaged Grace when she left 20 years ago and she hasn't recovered.

[Arcadiasw]

On Friday, August 19, 2016 at 11:55 PM, LoveIsJoy said:

I feel like I missed an episode or a major development.  Mac gets shot and the pastor is arrested and jailed as a result.    And the pastor is bailed out and shows up with Mae at the deacons' meeting.  Do we know what he was charged with?

Then after being shot, there's Mac in the hospital handcuffed to the bed.  Did I blink and miss a scene about how that came to pass?   I assume it's because of the molestation allegations, but there seems to be a gaping hole in presenting the details onscreen.  There are too many redundant and/or filler scenes, but the main plot about Mac seems disjointed and incomplete.  We still have no indication of what happened to the girl he had in his apartment, do we?

I had high hopes for this, but my interest is beginning to fade.  I'm tired of Grace's two expressions on her face, I'm bored by her beautiful daughter's angst and their boring scenes, and Noah is attractive yet still so very bland to me.  I don't know if it's the writing, the casting, or some of the acting choices that's going wrong for me.  For me, the scenes only come alive when the pastor, Mae, Kerissa and her daughter, and Charity are onscreen. 

I'll probably finish the season half-heartedly.  But still looking forward to Queen Sugar.

I think we're to assume a lot of things since  the limited amount of episodes the show has. The girl was Mac's next victim. As for James, maybe the charges were dropped  after the police sorted everything. It help  James Mac didn't press charges and Grace came forward with proof of Mac molestation. As for the disjointed plots maybe they'll clean it up for the next season. 

[Jx223]

On last week’s episode I thought it was interesting how Jacob/Kerissa were talking about how much money they need to potentially make it on their own. It looks like almost all of their expenses are paid for the Bishop/Lady Mae (mortgage, utilities, food, childcare, etc…) With all of the money they have been saving leaving with Jacob’s parents, I would think they would have money saved up, especially considering they both work and probably are paid decent salaries. But it seemed like they may have actually been worried a bit about what would happen to them financially after, Lady Mae found out that Jacob took the job at Triumph.

That scene between Kevin/Charity at the end was very dramatic. He needed to tell the truth, but that was intense and I can understand her reaction. I am glad that she and the babies are okay for now. I am definitely interested in seeing what happens between the two of them.

I think that Noah is going to end up possibly telling Grace, that things aren’t the same between them like they used to be. (Like other people have mentioned in this thread). I wonder though if they will still try and make something work, if he'll go back to Isabel, or he'll be torn between Grace and Isabel for a while.

I also wonder what is going to happen between Kerissa and that young, cute teacher at her school. Some people on Twitter were speculating that she already had an affair with him and that is why she told him to keep his distance. I don’t think she has, but I do think she knows he has feelings for her/he may have told her he has feelings for her. And that is why she told him about Jacob, so he could keep a respectable amount of distance from her and Jacob wouldn’t find out that he wants her. I am interested in seeing how he affects Kerissa/Jacob’s storyline.

I was also happy to see Mavis again.

Edited August 25, 2016 by Jx223

[Arcadiasw]

Wow! That’s the most interaction I’ve seen of the Greenleaf children and their parents all season! And they actually seem loving and happy with each other.

In a house that big with so many rooms, I don’t understand why Kevin is sleeping on the sofa downstairs. Did Kevin think he and Adrian weren’t on a date? Seriously??

I felt bad for Charity. I don't blame her for not wanting to see Kevin. I wonder if she will divorce him.

Damn Lady Mae, you didn’t have to tell the doctor about her and Kevin. LOL!

Is there something we should know about Kerissa and Mr. Dorsey? If she had an affair with him, then she's a hypocrite but smarter than Jacob.

Grace and Noah. Smh.

What little we saw of Mavis I like and I feel there's something missing as if she's holding something back from Grace.

Is it next Wednesday yet?? I’m ready for the Lady Mae and Mavis showdown! And what Mac has on James.

[Syndicate]

Charity and Kevin were great tonight but color me surprised that he spilled the beans. We know how stories like this usually go, don't we? The husband/boyfriend sneaks around behind his woman's back and acts on his urges without her having a clue until it's too late! So I have to give Kevin (and the writers) much credit here for not going with the typical. Having said this, I do wonder what's next for these two. Does Charity leave him, or does she keep him around hoping that he'll change? Hmmm. I've liked the show and I'm going to stick with it for next season, but I kinda wish more stuff happened this first season than what we got. Like someone said upthread, there seemed to be a lot of unnecessary filler in many of the episodes.

Edited August 25, 2016 by Syndicate

[Arcadiasw]

11 minutes ago, Jx223 said:

On last week’s episode I had wondered I thought it was interesting how Jacob/Kerissa were talking about how much money they need to potentially make it on their own. It looks like almost all of their expenses are paid for the Bishop/Lady Mae (mortgage, utilities, food, childcare, etc…) With all of the money they have been saving leaving with Jacob’s parents, I would think they would have money saved up, especially considering they both work and probably are paid decent salaries.

 

I was glad to see Mavis again.

You would think they would but they probably thought they were going to live at the Greenleaf mansion forever and didn't save their money and spent frivolously.  

I'm interested in the history between Lady Mae, James and Mavis. Mavis blames the church for changing them and that it should be shut down. There's so much story there.

[Jx223]

54 minutes ago, Arcadiasw said:

Wow! That’s the most interaction I’ve seen of the Greenleaf children and their parents all season! And they actually seem loving and happy with each other.

In a house that big with so many rooms, I don’t understand why Kevin is sleeping on the sofa downstairs. Did Kevin think he and Adrian weren’t on a date? Seriously??...

Is there something we should know about Kerissa and Mr. Dorsey? If she had an affair with him, then she's a hypocrite but smarter than Jacob....

What little we saw of Mavis I like and I feel there's something missing as if she's holding something back from Grace.

 

I was glad to see some loving moments between the Greenleaf siblings and their parents as well. It was nice to see Charity get some love from her father and brother.

Also, I don't think that Kerissa messed around with that cute, younger teacher. I do think she's aware of his feelings (maybe he even told her how he felt) and that is why she warned him about Jacob being around. Jacob did ask her if she ever cheated on him and she said no. I think that she may have been telling the truth about that. I think if she had cheated with the teacher, she would have been less sulky/depressed when she was dealing with Jacob and his affair with Alexa. Especially given how the teacher seems to really admire her. I do think she loved Jacob enough not to cheat on him in the past, though maybe something might end up happening between her and the teacher. 

Also, I actually lol when Kevin said "I'm not gay" to Adrian when they were at dinner, in that intimate setting at the restaurant. Kevin wasn't fooling Adrian. Even though I do find Adrian a little sleazy for trying to pursue a married man with children on the way. Gay or not that is a complicated situation. It might be a little different if Kevin was just a single, childless man trying to fight his feelings. But he is a man with a wife and two children on the way and I don't think that Adrian should be trying to play homewrecker, lol. 

Also, I remember someone suggesting a while back that Mavis might actually be Grace's real mother. Maybe that is true. That would also explain why Lady Mae has such disdain for Grace.

45 minutes ago, Syndicate said:

Charity and Kevin were great tonight but color me surprised that he spilled the beans. We know how stories like this usually go, don't we? The husband/boyfriend sneaks around behind his woman's back and acts on his urges without her having a clue until it's too late! So I have to give Kevin (and the writers) much credit here for not going with the typical. Having said this, I do wonder what's next for these two. Does Charity leave him, or does she keep him around hoping that he'll change? 

Maybe Charity will eventually let him go, but still raise the children with him. I think that is the best thing for her to do.

40 minutes ago, Arcadiasw said:

You would think they would but they probably thought they were going to live at the Greenleaf mansion forever and didn't save their money and spent frivolously.  

I'm interested in the history between Lady Mae, James and Mavis. Mavis blames the church for changing them and that it should be shut down. There's so much story there.

I was wondering about that. I get the sense that the bishop and Lady Mae pay for almost everything. Not only all the basic needs (like shelter, food, utilities), but also probably things like vehicles and education as well. With all of the free scholarships that the church has given out, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Jacob's college education had been completely paid for, Zora's will be paid for and even if Kerissa's student loans were paid off. 

Jacob and Kerissa's most blow some serious money on things like clothes, vacations (they probably also go on some vacations with the whole family as well that's paid for by the Bishop/Lady Mae) and maybe dining out. Because those are really mainly the type of things, I think they have to pay for. 

Edited August 25, 2016 by Jx223

[Athena5217]

I don't have much experience with churches except the Catholic Church so I hope I am not offending anyone by asking this.... Is it normal to call the wife of a bishop or other church official "Lady So-and-So?"

Every time I hear someone say Lady Mae, I think about Lady Mary on Downton Abby. So I keep wondering why this Americsn woman has a British title, but I don't think it's being used because she is nobility.

[bichonblitz]

I'm confused about the Greenleaf living arrangements. Are we supposed to believe that mansion is so huge that all the kids have their own separate apartments within the mansion? And Jacob and Kerissa have their own bedrooms within the apartment? So does Grace's kid? That's not realistic at all. 

Noah is a total asshole. 

They need to forget the storyline with Grace's ex taking the kid and get back to what's going to happen with James.

6 hours ago, Athena5217 said:

I don't have much experience with churches except the Catholic Church so I hope I am not offending anyone by asking this.... Is it normal to call the wife of a bishop or other church official "Lady So-and-So?"

I was wondering about that, too. 

[Joimiaroxeu]

Wonder why these people make such a big deal about offices? They live in a mansion that rivals the White House but offices get them feeling special?

Kevin said he's never been with a man. I find that hard to believe given his age. It was brave of him to admit his feelings to Charity though. I just hope we're not going to see some kind of "pray the gay away" stuff because he feels guilty or because Charity pressures him into it.

So is Oprah leaving the show now that it's successfully off the ground? Since Mavis' landmark club has been closed there wouldn't seem to be any reason for her to stick around unles she's going to start some new venture in another line of business.

Ditto comments upthread, I too wonder what's up between Kerissa and that teacher. It'd be real soapy if it turns out she did cheat once and her youngest child isn't Jacob's.

[sugarbaker design]

1 hour ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Kevin said he's never been with a man. I find that hard to believe given his age.

I've known guys who married, had children, and then came out in their forties/fifties, never having sex with a guy until they're middle aged.  Denial can be quite deep!

Quote

I just hope we're not going to see some kind of "pray the gay away" stuff because he feels guilty or because Charity pressures him into it.

I'd hate to see that also, that would be a lose/lose situation.  Hopefully we get a story featuring Charity and Kevin co-parenting while they're separated and he's swiping on Grindr.  Hopefully Kevin gets off the couch and into his own apartment.

[Arcadiasw]

18 hours ago, Syndicate said:

So I have to give Kevin (and the writers) much credit here for not going with the typical. Having said this, I do wonder what's next for these two. Does Charity leave him, or does she keep him around hoping that he'll change? Hmmm. I've liked the show and I'm going to stick with it for next season, but I kinda wish more stuff happened this first season than what we got. Like someone said upthread, there seemed to be a lot of unnecessary filler in many of the episodes.

ICAM. I like the show goes against the normal trend on some things and I hope next season has more episodes.

18 hours ago, Jx223 said:

I think that she may have been telling the truth about that. I think if she had cheated with the teacher, she would have been less sulky/depressed when she was dealing with Jacob and his affair with Alexa. Especially given how the teacher seems to really admire her. I do think she loved Jacob enough not to cheat on him in the past, though maybe something might end up happening between her and the teacher. 

Maybe Charity will eventually let him go, but still raise the children with him. I think that is the best thing for her to do.

I was wondering about that. I get the sense that the bishop and Lady Mae pay for almost everything. Not only all the basic needs (like shelter, food, utilities), but also probably things like vehicles and education as well. With all of the free scholarships that the church has given out, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Jacob's college education had been completely paid for, Zora's will be paid for and even if Kerissa's student loans were paid off. 

Jacob and Kerissa's most blow some serious money on things like clothes, vacations (they probably also go on some vacations with the whole family as well that's paid for by the Bishop/Lady Mae) and maybe dining out. Because those are really mainly the type of things, I think they have to pay for. 

If Jacob strays to Alexa again, I won't be surprised if Kerissa sleeps with Mr. Dorsey as revenge.

I think while Charity may want to done with Kevin Lady Mae might tell her and Kevin to work it out to save face for the family since it's under a lot of heat now. I wonder what the Choir Director will say since should Charity confide in him.

Jacob and Kerissa remind me of adult kids still living at home when financially they don't have to and blew their money on themselves. When the time came for them to leave, they're not financially ready to. With Mac in jail, I have to wonder who is in charge of the Greenleaf finances. It will have to be someone James can trust given his 'love offerings'.

 

6 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Wonder why these people make such a big deal about offices? They live in a mansion that rivals the White House but offices get them feeling special?

Kevin said he's never been with a man. I find that hard to believe given his age. It was brave of him to admit his feelings to Charity though. I just hope we're not going to see some kind of "pray the gay away" stuff because he feels guilty or because Charity pressures him into it.

So is Oprah leaving the show now that it's successfully off the ground? Since Mavis' landmark club has been closed there wouldn't seem to be any reason for her to stick around unles she's going to start some new venture in another line of business.

 

I guess it's sentimental since Jacob is leaving. Oprah's role might still be recurring even in the storyline is filler. Isabel should not have returned after she broke off the engagement. The show couldn't have made it more clear where Noah's head and heart is at but they still keep her and Noah's story going. Maybe it will finally conclude with the season finale..

I'm surprised they did give Ray custody but it's only for the summer. Superficially, I don't blame Sophia for wanting to stay and Grace not moving out either. Free rent. Apartment size bedrooms. Access to plenty of cars. Never have to worry where the next meal is coming from or bills. That would be a hard life to give up if Sophia and Grace struggled while they lived in Phoenix.

I'm also surprised Grace hasn't been fired. James was quick to fire Jacob in a sense after the Alexa incident even with Lady Mae not agreeing. Since James and Lady Mae are both in agreement they don't care for Grace now and they don't want her to preach, I'm surprised James hasn't fired her. Despite what they think, the lady is right they need Grace preaching to bring money and people back to the church and James need to sit down for a while given the controversy that's going on.

[Neurochick]

On August 25, 2016 at 6:56 PM, Arcadiasw said:

I'm surprised they did give Ray custody but it's only for the summer. Superficially, I don't blame Sophia for wanting to stay and Grace not moving out either. Free rent. Apartment size bedrooms. Access to plenty of cars. Never have to worry where the next meal is coming from or bills. That would be a hard life to give up if Sophia and Grace struggled while they lived in Phoenix.

That was just stupid of the judge.  As soon as Ray said he was sober 8 years I shook my head.  If I were the judge, I would have taken Ray in chambers, asked him if his sponsor knew what he was doing, what step was he on, what's the name of his home group; and told him that if he continues with this resentment of Gigi, he'll be drunk in a week, so get thee ass back to Arizona, ESPECIALLY when Sophia told her father, "I DON'T WANT TO LIVE WITH YOU."  How much of a douche can Ray be, your child doesn't want you.  Let it go.  See, Ray isn't taking Sophia because he loves her, he's doing it because he's angry at Gigi and your child shouldn't have to suffer because you want to get back at the mother.  

I worked for a woman who refused to take jobs that paid seven figures because she didn't want to uproot her son.  She cared more about him than she did money.  Sophia has made friends, and Ray doesn't care about that, he only cares about "ME ME ME....I'm a victim."  Didn't Gigi say that Ray cheated on her with his ex?  Shit, he's lucky she put his name on the birth certificate, because if it were me, I wouldn't have, I would have told him to get the fuck away from me or else I'd separate him from his male sexual organs.  

Edited August 27, 2016 by Neurochick

[Arcadiasw]

18 hours ago, Neurochick said:

That was just stupid of the judge.  As soon as Ray said he was sober 8 years I shook my head.  If I were the judge, I would have taken Ray in chambers, asked him if his sponsor knew what he was doing, what step was he on, what's the name of his home group; and told him that if he continues with this resentment of Gigi, he'll be drunk in a week, so get thee ass back to Arizona, ESPECIALLY when Sophia told her father, "I DON'T WANT TO LIVE WITH YOU."  How much of a douche can Ray be, your child doesn't want you.  Let it go.  See, Ray isn't taking Sophia because he loves her, he's doing it because he's angry at Gigi and your child shouldn't have to suffer because you want to get back at the mother.  

I worked for a woman who refused to take jobs that paid seven figures because she didn't want to uproot her son.  She cared more about him than she did money.  Sophia has made friends, and Ray doesn't care about that, he only cares about "ME ME ME....I'm a victim."  Didn't Gigi say that Ray cheated on her with his ex?  Shit, he's lucky she put his name on the birth certificate, because if it were me, I wouldn't have, I would have told him to get the fuck away from me or else I'd separate him from his male sexual organs.  

I doubt the judge knows Ray's anger at Grace. I'm sure they all were on their best behavior to the judge. While I'm surprised at the ruling I think the judge was also lenient to Grace. I don't know how much time has passed since Grace returned home but it's been more than three months. Grace is lucky the judge didn't rule Sophia spend as much time with Ray as she has with her Mom in Memphis. 

At most, it's a trial run. Sophia will be gone for the summer and when it's over they'll review the custody arrangement. Just in time for the season premiere. :)  Then again maybe Sophia won't go. The season finale hasn't aired  yet.  As it been said the judge is punishing Grace for breaking the law.  If Sophia goes,  maybe being with Ray will see how much she misses Greenleaf and maybe he and Grace will amicably come to an agreement. As much tv will allow. 

[Neurochick]

2 hours ago, Arcadiasw said:

At most, it's a trial run. Sophia will be gone for the summer and when it's over they'll review the custody arrangement. Just in time for the season premiere. :)  Then again maybe Sophia won't go. The season finale hasn't aired  yet.  As it been said the judge is punishing Grace for breaking the law.  If Sophia goes,  maybe being with Ray will see how much she misses Greenleaf and maybe he and Grace will amicably come to an agreement. As much tv will allow. 

As for Grace breaking the law, well she did...but in reality, when Sophia was born, she could have told Ray to fuck off and not even put his name on the birth certificate.  They weren't married and Grace said he cheated on her before she found out she was pregnant.  She was under zero obligation to have a custody agreement in the first place.  

[Dee]

Why is Sophia acting so surprised at her current situation?

Even if she wasn't aware of the issues between Grace and Ray, she had to know contacting her father, especially given the circumstances, was going to cause major conflict.

[wanderingstar]

I am so over Lady Mae blaming Grace for the church's problems. All Grace did was bring Mac's vile behavior to light. Grace has her flaws, but shining a light on his awfulness is not one of them.

I sure hope we find out in the finale what exactly Mac has on Bishop James.

I feel terrible for Charity, though I am glad Kevin finally told her the truth. Glad that story has finally moved along.

And I see Kerissa's lunch buddy was giving her some longing looks. I'll be very interested to see where that goes.

As for Grace and Noah, I am guessing they are done, as Noah seemed to be on the verge of telling her that they can't recapture their past relationship. Still, Noah seems very confused, so who knows.

ETA:

Dee, you have hit on one of the reasons the custody storyline is bothering me. When Sophia contacted Ray, I'm guessing she did so without thinking much about the consequences of her actions. And it would be fine if the show was saying the current custody battle is (at least partially) the result of her impulsiveness. But it's been framed solely as Grace's fault for breaking the law and taking Sophia out of state without telling Ray. Yes, Grace bears responsibility for that, but Sophia kind of set the current events in motion with her call to Ray.

As for Ray, he is ridiculous. He wants a chance to be a father, but it took Sophia calling him for him to realize she was even gone. *rme* Whatever, dude.

That whole storyline just seems very poorly executed.

Edited August 29, 2016 by Gillian Rosh

[Neurochick]

My problem is I don't get why Grace and Ray even have a custody agreement.  Maybe Grace wanted Ray in Sophia's life?  Maybe it was for money?  Since they weren't married, was Grace even obligated to have some custody agreement?  I once knew a man who had a baby with his girlfriend.  His name was not on their son's birth certificate.  One day she took their son and left the country.  When he went to the cops, they were like, "were you two married?"  When he said no, they were like, "sorry, we can't help you."  This was in the 80's and they probably didn't have a custody agreement.  But IMO, if Ray was a cheating dog, Grace never should have drawn up a custody agreement; I mean what kind of example would he set for a child, that it's okay to screw around and you only become concerned when your girlfriend gets pregnant?  What a douche.

What does Mac have on the Bishop?  I have a feeling that James and Mavis were a couple and Mac knows.  Maybe they had a baby and Mac arranged for the abortion?  

I feel so bad for Charity.  At first I thought she knew he was gay (because I sensed it) but now I know she didn't know.  I feel bad for her because now she wonders if her whole marriage is a sham.  However, if Kevin said that he had feeling for another woman, would that have been all right with Charity?  

[sugarbaker design]

1 hour ago, Neurochick said:

However, if Kevin said that he had feeling for another woman, would that have been all right with Charity?  

I'm sure it would not have been alright.  Along with normal feeling of betrayal due to marital infidelity, regardless of gender, Charity's also got the 'how could I not have known' and 'how could I be so stupid' along with the 'has my marriage been a total lie' you mentioned.  It's really complex and I think the show is being really sensitive about the topic, considering it's airing on a network that air The Haves and The Have Nots.

[honybr]

On 8/25/2016 at 2:03 AM, Athena5217 said:

I don't have much experience with churches except the Catholic Church so I hope I am not offending anyone by asking this.... Is it normal to call the wife of a bishop or other church official "Lady So-and-So?"

Every time I hear someone say Lady Mae, I think about Lady Mary on Downton Abby. So I keep wondering why this Americsn woman has a British title, but I don't think it's being used because she is nobility.

Very much so.  It doesn't even have to be a bishop.  A pastor's wife (i.e. first lady) can be called "Lady ..."  

First time posting in this thread but I'm loving this show.  As someone who is deeply involved in church politics this show has even sucked in my husband. Some things they are over the top but others are like Oprah was eavesdropping at several church leadership meetings.  Lol.   

[Arcadiasw]

On ‎8‎/‎28‎/‎2016 at 5:41 PM, Dee said:

Why is Sophia acting so surprised at her current situation?

Even if she wasn't aware of the issues between Grace and Ray, she had to know contacting her father, especially given the circumstances, was going to cause major conflict.

Being a teenager, not knowing better or the consequences of her actions and just being angry at her Mom. Sophia called Ray out of frustration and anger at her mother for not letting her know Uncle Mac was a creep and she needed to keep her guard up around him. As adults we can see conflict coming but teenage Sophia? Probably not. 

 

7 hours ago, Neurochick said:

My problem is I don't get why Grace and Ray even have a custody agreement.  Maybe Grace wanted Ray in Sophia's life?  Maybe it was for money?  Since they weren't married, was Grace even obligated to have some custody agreement?  I once knew a man who had a baby with his girlfriend.  His name was not on their son's birth certificate.  One day she took their son and left the country.  When he went to the cops, they were like, "were you two married?"  When he said no, they were like, "sorry, we can't help you."  

I feel so bad for Charity.  At first I thought she knew he was gay (because I sensed it) but now I know she didn't know.  I feel bad for her because now she wonders if her whole marriage is a sham.  However, if Kevin said that he had feeling for another woman, would that have been all right with Charity?  

I assume Grace and Ray had a custody agreement because Ray is the father.  Even though things didn’t end well for them, Grace thought Ray should have a chance to get to know his daughter. Nothing wrong with that. And it seem Grace did give him chances despite his lapse in his drinking before getting that straight and whatever happened five years ago before he cleaned up and got his restaurant going.

 

In general, if a man and woman breakup and the woman is pregnant, bad breakup or not, it doesn’t mean a mother should keep a child from its father and it doesn’t mean the parents can’t have a custody agreement. The important thing is the child and what’s best for the child. It’s not time for the parents to be selfish or vengeful. For example look at Tom Brady and the mother of his first child Bridget Moynahan. Brady had moved on with his now wife Gisele when Bridget became pregnant. It could’ve been an ugly event and it probably was privately in the beginning but Tom and Bridget worked together and did what was best for the child. Whatever custody agreement they have works and all are involved in the kid’s life. There are other examples of non famous couples breaking up and the woman finds herself pregnant. The parents may agree getting back together for the sake of the child wouldn't work but they still work together in raising the child and the custody agreements.

 

Quote

This was in the 80's and they probably didn't have a custody agreement.  But IMO, if Ray was a cheating dog, Grace never should have drawn up a custody agreement; I mean what kind of example would he set for a child, that it's okay to screw around and you only become concerned when your girlfriend gets pregnant?  What a douche.

Nowadays fathers do have more parental rights. That's good because while there are bad fathers, there are also decent men who want to be a father to their child but the woman is no good. No parent is perfect. You can say what kind of example was Grace making sleeping with Noah, knowing he was engaged to another woman? It's okay to sleep with an engaged man because he's not married yet?

The problem with the Grace/Ray/Sophia storyline is the writing. The writers should’ve gone one way instead of flip flopping. When the show started, Sophia mentioned Ray will call. We never saw that scene. The next time we hear about Ray, he’s calling Grace after the cop is shot in front of the church. Grace ignores the call. Next episode Ray shows up because of the Uncle Mac story. He tells Grace he’s going to court for Sophia because she broke the law taking her across state line without telling him but he’s doing this months after Grace did this?? That’s the first huh??? with the storyline. In Ray and Sophia’s first scenes, it seemed like they cared about each other. Then the next episode Sophia is saying she hates Ray. Not sure if she really does or if she was saying it out of frustration and not wanting to leave. You’re thinking, “Okay, writers. Which is it?”

I think the storyline would’ve worked better if Ray consented with Grace moving Sophia across the country but reneged on that when the Uncle Mac stuff came out. I also think the writers should’ve worked this storyline a little earlier with mentions of Ray. It could be a minute scene of Grace or Sophia talking to Ray on the phone, FaceTime, Skype, etc or James or Lady Mae asking about Sophia’s father. That way the judge’s ruling would’ve made a little more sense other than Grace breaking the law. With the current storyline, a judge could also argue to Ray why did you wait so long to file a complaint with the court on the custody when this has been going on for months? Hopefully the writers will clear these hiccups going forward in the next season.

 

Quote

I feel so bad for Charity.  At first I thought she knew he was gay (because I sensed it) but now I know she didn't know.  I feel bad for her because now she wonders if her whole marriage is a sham.  However, if Kevin said that he had feeling for another woman, would that have been all right with Charity?

Charity was expecting it to be a woman and it wouldn't have been all right but that's easier to deal with than learning your husband is attracted to men. Charity will start thinking if Kevin ever loved her, if he was using her all this time, why did he get her pregnant if he has feelings for men, why didn't she see the signs.  Let's not forget the family. Remember how Lady Mae was to Charity when she wanted to preach the "Seasons of Marriage" in the first episode. Imagine what her mother will say with Kevin being attracted to men. She may blame Charity for that.  

 

Quote

What does Mac have on the Bishop?  I have a feeling that James and Mavis were a couple and Mac knows.  Maybe they had a baby and Mac arranged for the abortion?  

I'm going WAY out of the box here and say murder. James murdered one of Pastor Skanks relatives. lol

[wanderingstar]

Merle Dandridge says 'Greenleaf' finale will be explosive

[Athena5217]

Apologies if I missed it, but I don't think I've seen anyone mention this yet regarding the custody argument... Sofia is a biracial girl, and in a previous episode she told Grace she went from bring the darkest girl at her old school to one of the lightest skinned girls at the new school. So it sounds like her Arizona school was almost all white.  This may be the first time she has had African American friends, and had a chance to explore her African American heritage. That's not a reason she gave Ray for wanting to stay, but it is probably a factor even if she isn't aware of it.

While Ray can't understand what it's like to be the only person of color in a room, as the parent of a biracial child, I would hope he'd thought about it, read some books, talked to people, etc.  I understand his anger about the Mac situation, but since he is in jail, he's not a threat to Sofia. So there are a lot of factors both parents should consider, but instead they both seem to want Sofia to be with them for their own emotional satisfaction, not hers.

[Dee]

On ‎8‎/‎29‎/‎2016 at 8:39 PM, Arcadiasw said:

Being a teenager, not knowing better or the consequences of her actions and just being angry at her Mom. Sophia called Ray out of frustration and anger at her mother for not letting her know Uncle Mac was a creep and she needed to keep her guard up around him. As adults we can see conflict coming but teenage Sophia? Probably not. 

I understand teenagers can be impetuous at times, but Sophia isn't stupid, which is what the writing makes her out to be imo.

She calls Ray to come to her rescue because she's rightfully upset about Grace placing her in potential danger, but instead of returning to Arizona with the parent she felt safe enough to turn to as an alternative, she wants to remain with her Mom?

It isn't as if the Mac situation is Sophia's first issue with Grace's recklessness and severe tunnel vision, she's been questioning her Mom's judgment from the day they arrived. And outside of Zora, it isn't as if Sophia's overly bonded with the Greenleafs to justify her sudden need to stay in Memphis when she's got deeper ties in, and valid reason to return to, Phoenix.

[Neurochick]

10 hours ago, Athena5217 said:

Apologies if I missed it, but I don't think I've seen anyone mention this yet regarding the custody argument... Sofia is a biracial girl, and in a previous episode she told Grace she went from bring the darkest girl at her old school to one of the lightest skinned girls at the new school. So it sounds like her Arizona school was almost all white.  This may be the first time she has had African American friends, and had a chance to explore her African American heritage. That's not a reason she gave Ray for wanting to stay, but it is probably a factor even if she isn't aware of it.

While Ray can't understand what it's like to be the only person of color in a room, as the parent of a biracial child, I would hope he'd thought about it, read some books, talked to people, etc.  I understand his anger about the Mac situation, but since he is in jail, he's not a threat to Sofia. So there are a lot of factors both parents should consider, but instead they both seem to want Sofia to be with them for their own emotional satisfaction, not hers.

That's a very good point.  In Arizona she might have been around just white people, and now she's with black people.  Ray acted like many clueless white men that I've met in my life.  If you're white and you have a child with someone who's not white, that child will probably not be considered white in the real world.  I bet that never occurred to Ray.

One more thing, I think Ray wants Grace back.  He told her, "you could come back too."  Maybe he thinks that by taking Sophie, Grace will come back to him. 

Edited August 31, 2016 by Neurochick

[sugarbaker design]

10 hours ago, Athena5217 said:

and in a previous episode she told Grace she went from bring the darkest girl at her old school to one of the lightest skinned girls at the new school.

Sophia actually said something like "I went from being the only black girl in school to being the only white girl."

[Arcadiasw]

9 hours ago, Athena5217 said:

Apologies if I missed it, but I don't think I've seen anyone mention this yet regarding the custody argument... Sofia is a biracial girl, and in a previous episode she told Grace she went from bring the darkest girl at her old school to one of the lightest skinned girls at the new school. So it sounds like her Arizona school was almost all white.  This may be the first time she has had African American friends, and had a chance to explore her African American heritage. That's not a reason she gave Ray for wanting to stay, but it is probably a factor even if she isn't aware of it.

While Ray can't understand what it's like to be the only person of color in a room, as the parent of a biracial child, I would hope he'd thought about it, read some books, talked to people, etc.  I understand his anger about the Mac situation, but since he is in jail, he's not a threat to Sofia. So there are a lot of factors both parents should consider, but instead they both seem to want Sofia to be with them for their own emotional satisfaction, not hers.

Excellent point. I hadn't consider the biracial perspective and it begs the question, whose idea was it to enroll Sophia in a predominantly white school? Surely there were schools with a healthy mix of different races Sophia could've enrolled in. 

While I'm glad the show doesn't make an issue about race with Ray, maybe it should've been mentioned for the reason you pointed out. As critical as Lady Mae has been with her, amazing she hadn't criticized Grace for having a child out of wedlock and with a white man. 

33 minutes ago, Dee said:

I understand teenagers can be impetuous at times, but Sophia isn't stupid, which is what the writing makes her out to be imo.

She calls Ray to come to her rescue because she's rightfully upset about Grace placing her in potential danger, but instead of returning to Arizona with the parent she felt safe enough to turn to as an alternative, she wants to remain with her Mom?

It isn't as if the Mac situation is Sophia's first issue with Grace's recklessness and severe tunnel vision, she's been questioning her Mom's judgment from the day they arrived. And outside of Zora, it isn't as if Sophia's overly bonded with the Greenleafs to justify her sudden need to stay in Memphis when she's got deeper ties in, and valid reason to return to, Phoenix.

The writing on the Grace/Ray/Sophia storyline has been conflicting. Ray wasn't important until Mac's story came ahead and the writers needed more drama for Grace. Until a couple episodes ago, no one mentioned Ray. If he wasn't mentioned in passing at the beginning of the series, I would've thought Sophia's father was dead.

As for Sophia bonding with the Greenleaf family, it must've happened off screen which is frustrating. Show me. Don't tell me. The only bonding I saw of Sophia and a Greenleaf was with James with the BLM event. She did spend time with Kerissa and Zora while Grace was hooking up with Noah. I guess that counts. Sophia did have friends in Phoenix. It's interesting how she doesn't want to connect with them even for the summer.

[Dee]

6 hours ago, Arcadiasw said:

The writing on the Grace/Ray/Sophia storyline has been conflicting. Ray wasn't important until Mac's story came ahead and the writers needed more drama for Grace. Until a couple episodes ago, no one mentioned Ray. If he wasn't mentioned in passing at the beginning of the series, I would've thought Sophia's father was dead.

As for Sophia bonding with the Greenleaf family, it must've happened off screen which is frustrating. Show me. Don't tell me. The only bonding I saw of Sophia and a Greenleaf was with James with the BLM event. She did spend time with Kerissa and Zora while Grace was hooking up with Noah. I guess that counts. Sophia did have friends in Phoenix. It's interesting how she doesn't want to connect with them even for the summer.

Exactly!

Sophia, presumably, has lived her entire life in Phoenix.

Now, she's simultaneously rootless enough to freak out about returning to Phoenix with a Dad who she contacted when distressed & knows deeply loves her yet is also firmly rooted in Memphis, replete with a self serving Mother and a ton of constant family drama, after about six months? It just doesn't make sense.

The writing for this show is kind of infuriating in that way. Much in the way that none of the Greenleaf family had much interaction among themselves until the Uncle Mac situation demanded it. It's been 13 one hour episodes and we still don't know James reasons for hiding his illness, the birth order of the Greenleaf siblings, the reason(s) for Charity and Mae's continual hostility to Grace, Jacob's need to remain with the church, the charges Uncle Mac was brought up on or even the reason behind Faith's death.

Edited August 31, 2016 by Dee

[sugarbaker design]

Quote

The writing for this show is kind of infuriating in that way. Much in the way that none of the Greenleaf family had much interaction among themselves until the Uncle Mac situation demanded it. It's been 13 one hour episodes and we still don't know James reasons for hiding his illness, the birth order of the Greenleaf siblings, the reason for Charity and Mae's continual hostility for Grace, Jacob's need to remain with the church, the charges Uncle Mac was brought up on or even the reason behind Faith's death.

One of the reasons I enjoy this show so much is it takes familiar themes from classic drama and the bible and makes it new.  I would think the reason behind James's illness is why FDR hid his illness; it might be construed as a sign of weakness.  I see Jacob's ties to the church as a prince and his birthright.  Charity's reason for hostility toward Grace; classic Prodigal Daughter with Charity as jealous sister.  Mae's hostility will probably need the better part of a season to explain in full, it's that complex.  

I thought Faith's death was suicide accelerated by drug abuse.  I have no idea what Mac's charges are.

[Dee]

I understand that the show borrows a great deal from classic drama and the bible. What I don't understand is why the writers are making so many weird decisions from a character based perspective.

For instance, Greenleaf has spent the past 12 episodes emphasizing that Jacob's dream, growing up, was to play baseball and that he only became heavily involved in the church largely due to Gigi's absence. Now at the end of the season, he's so bereft at being permanently removed from preaching that he's willing to join a rival church to resume being a pastor.

It's the same situation with Jacob's relationship to Kerissa. She drags him to therapy for the better half of the season where he barely speaks, yet after a brief interaction with a couple of swingers, they're suddenly on the road to reconciliation?

In the pilot, Charity tells Kevin that Grace isn't a member of the family and then yells at Grace for coming to her defense over dinner. But when Mac is shot and arrested, Charity is furious that Grace hadn't confided in her? Also, it's not as if Grace is Charity's only sibling. Faith had many more issues and remained with the family as did Jacob, who himself, was encouraged to preach while she wasn't. So why then, is Gigi the sole target for Charity's hostility? 

I can understand James not wanting to reveal his illness to the world for fear of appearing weak, especially given the church's precipitous state of affairs, but it seems a bridge too far to believe a seasoned hustler such as the good Bishop wouldn't see the potential advantages in disclosing his situation to his family.

Faith's death is ambiguous. All the show has confirmed, thus far, is that she drowned. In March To The Sea, Mae tells Mac Faith committed suicide because she was tormented by the past, but in Behind Closed Doors, Grace learns Faith did all kinds of questionable things to get high, so it could go either way imo.

Edited August 31, 2016 by Dee

[sugarbaker design]

7 minutes ago, Dee said:

For instance, Greenleaf has spent the past 12 episodes emphasizing that Jacob's dream, growing up, was to play baseball and that he only became heavily involved in the church largely due to Gigi's absence. Now at the end of the season, he's so bereft at being permanently removed from preaching that he's willing to join a rival church to resume being a pastor.

I agree with  you on this.  This sudden change of direction for Jacob seems like an excuse for story potential for Season 2.

8 minutes ago, Dee said:

So why then, is Gigi the sole target for Charity's hostility? 

Because Gigi left while Charity stayed on, acted the good daughter, served the church.  The second prodigal daughter Gigi comes back, the Bishop asks her to preach.  That must've killed Charity.  Why Charity focuses her hostility on Gigi alone and not the bishop I don't know.

[Dee]

1 hour ago, sugarbaker design said:

Because Gigi left while Charity stayed on, acted the good daughter, served the church.  The second prodigal daughter Gigi comes back, the Bishop asks her to preach.  That must've killed Charity.  Why Charity focuses her hostility on Gigi alone and not the bishop I don't know.

In Grace's absence, it's clear their entire family had been regularly dismissive of Charity's attempts to move beyond music ministry (Mae nastily jabs her about not being a mother and Mac tells her outright to sit down & shut up in the middle of a family dinner). And all season, Grace has been very hesitant about re-immersing herself in the church, especially as a practicing pastor. She admits to the family that she barely attends church in Phoenix, and when she attempts to support & defend Charity from the family's abuse (before James even asks Gigi to resume preaching), Charity coldly shuts her down; so it's not as if Charity has reason to feel jealous of Gigi.

If anything, Charity should be much more contemptuous of Jacob, who is unabashedly their mother's favorite, is as dismissive of her as anyone else in the family, and who James heavily relies upon, even though (Charity feels) he isn't a very good pastor.

It all feels so contrived by the show, to keep Grace as the perennial 'outsider,' instead of a genuine character-based issue.

Edited August 31, 2016 by Dee

[Arcadiasw]

4 hours ago, Dee said:

The writing for this show is kind of infuriating in that way. Much in the way that none of the Greenleaf family had much interaction among themselves until the Uncle Mac situation demanded it. It's been 13 one hour episodes and we still don't know James reasons for hiding his illness, the birth order of the Greenleaf siblings, the reason for Charity and Mae's continual hostility for Grace, Jacob's need to remain with the church, the charges Uncle Mac was brought up on or even the reason behind Faith's death.

Maybe James doesn't want to look weak or vulnerable. Sometimes as parents get older they hide their illnesses so the family won't worry. Jacob could remain with the church because he thinks that's all he can do. The time for baseball has passed. With Kerissa as his wife, I doubt she will let him wonder too long on deciding what to do next. Maybe Lady Mae thinks Grace is trouble because she came forward on what Mac did to Faith. She didn't believe the accusations against her brother and perhaps resented Grace for that and when she left, that left a hole in the family that caused Mae to resent Grace even more. James had to rely on Jacob instead of Grace taking the mantle. Faith falling into a spiral Lady Mae may blame that on Grace. As for Charity, I've wondered if she resented Grace for leaving. Charity was a child when Grace left. Since the family has a history of leaving Charity out of things maybe she didn't know Grace confronted the family about what Mac did to Faith and the fallout of that caused her to leave. For all Charity knew her big sister was here one day and then she left and cut herself off from the family for 20 years. She didn't come back for Charity or Jacob's wedding or the birth of his kids. No one met Sophia until Grace came home for Faith's funeral. Growing up, Charity will hear James praise Grace for her preaching and her mother's snide remarks against Grace. That will shape a child.

The sad part is Grace hurt herself and her siblings by cutting off from them. I get why Grace cut her parents off but why her siblings? Even if Jacob took his parents side by not saying anything even when he knew the truth, he was a child. Not sure if Charity ever knew about Faith and Mac then. How did Faith feel having her sister leave her like that? It doesn't seem as Grace had much communication with her siblings after she left which is a tragedy in itself. Makes for good TV. I just wished the writers explored that more. 

I think Grace mentioned something about Faith drowning but maybe she didn't really drown. You know how TV shows can be about deaths heard of but not seen. 

[Dee]

1 hour ago, Arcadiasw said:

The sad part is Grace hurt herself and her siblings by cutting off from them. I get why Grace cut her parents off but why her siblings? Even if Jacob took his parents side by not saying anything even when he knew the truth, he was a child.

See, this is why it's important for the show to be clear about the Greenleaf sibs ages/birth order. When Grace confides to Jacob in The Broken Road she states he was a child during the first round of Uncle Mac drama, but Jacob is clearly somewhere between his late 30s and early 40s, putting him in his very late teens-early 20s (far from a child imo) when Grace first left.

In a similar vein, Charity and Kevin's story has been so removed from the show's larger narrative that it's been hard to get a fix on how she feels about anything, beyond her marital struggles and her friendship with Carlton. She doesn't grieve for Faith past the funeral, and she doesn't have a personal conversation with Jacob until she learns he's leaving the church and the rare conversations she's had with Mae and James in the interim have been fairly pleasant despite them being significant personal obstacles to her professional ambitions.

It's also weird how Mae, who adamantly refused to believe Grace's initial claims, only needed the uncorroborated testimony of a couple of unrelated young girls and a single (albeit intense) personal conversation with Mac for her to finally believe brother's depraved transgressions.

Edited September 1, 2016 by Dee

[Arcadiasw]

That should’ve been a two hour finale!  Not enough time to go into everything.

So the Sheriff is coming to arrest James? Was it arson for insurance money or murder or both? I'm so lost here. If I were Lady Mae I would’ve punched Mac for dropping that kiss on me or better yet kick him between the legs. Blech!!! He's slime!!

When I saw Kevin looking at that guy, I thought he was back on his dating app. Still looks like he was secretly checking out the guy and at least Kevin has stopped being in denial.

I’m surprised to see Karine at Women’s Day and not having her ears plugged to her phone. :p  

I actually laughed at Lady Mae's disappointment, anger, then reluctant acceptance at how the ladies turned to Grace to save the church.

The showdown between Lady Mae and Mavis was good but I felt there was some holding back. They know the history and truth but we the audience still don't. Lady Mae is in denial. I think she knew about Mac and Faith but didn't want to believe it.

When Mavis talked to Grace, it felt she was still holding back. There had to be have been something going on between Mavis and James back in the day. Too much emotion from Mavis as she talked about James.

Noah needs to crawl in a sewer.              

Pastor Skanks is like the devil.

Fair finale but too short and still many questions unanswered. I have to go back and rewatch.

Edited September 1, 2016 by Arcadiasw

[wanderingstar]

All that was missing from the Mavis/Lady Mae showdown was a slap. Jeez, I can't stand Lady Mae. I loved when all the women started clapping for Grace instead of her.

I am starting to think Noah is just a big ho. And was it me, or did his and Isabel's scenes seem disconnected from everything else in this ep?

I hope we get better clarity on what exactly Mac has on James. Grandpa McCready seemed to imply someone in the Greenleaf family set fire to First Baptist. Was it James? Is that hiw he started Calvary? Is that the big secret? 

Looking forward to season 2, which I hope includes a Who Killed Mac murder mystery. Do not disappoint me show.

Merle Dandridge Spills Secrets ofor Season 1

[Dee]

Mae is a nasty piece of work. Blaming her own personal failures as a mother on Mavis, taunting Grace about losing Sophia. She truly delights in the misery of others.

Merle Dandridge is a solid actress who nails most of Grace's complex emotions, but she was totally miscast as a charismatic preacher. That said, it remains quite affecting to see Grace's palpable reverence of God contrasted with her continual disillusionment at her family's fallibility.

James and Grace's reconciliation was lovely. Keith David and Merle Dandridge work really well together.

Very telling that even after going to great lengths to make sure Henry was taken care of, Grace never once referred to him as her Grandfather.

Loved that Bishop remained a step ahead of Pastor Jidenna. Anybody who trusts a $40 million dollar project to a new hire deserves what he gets.

Kevin and Charity's scenes were well acted but this 'pray away the gay' storyline is a waste of time.

Isabel and Noah were also a waste of time. Since this is a soap, she's gonna wind up pregnant & use it as a cudgel to keep Noah and Grace apart next season.

Calling it now, Mac will be shot & killed by the end of next season, in a big whodunit mystery, with Zora as the eventual culprit.

Edited September 1, 2016 by Dee

[Arcadiasw]

32 minutes ago, Gillian Rosh said:

All that was missing from the Mavis/Lady Mae showdown was a slap. Jeez, I can't stand Lady Mae. I loved when all the women started clapping for Grace instead of her.

I am starting to think Noah is just a big ho. And was it me, or did his and Isabel's scenes seem disconnected from everything else in this ep?

I hope we get better clarity on what exactly Mac has on James. Grandpa McCready seemed to imply someone in the Greenleaf family set fire to First Baptist. Was it James? Is that hiw he started Calvary? Is that the big secret? 

Looking forward to season 2, which I hope includes a Who Killed Mac murder mystery. Do not disappoint me show.

Merle Dandridge Spills Secrets ofor Season 1

Thanks for link. I needed to read that. It answered some things and brought up more questions. Lol.

If it were the 80s, there would've been a slap followed up by a fight all through the club.

Like you, I'm thinking James set that fire to First Baptist. Maybe unwittingly committed manslaughter. Who was the caretaker though?

[Jx223]

On 8/29/2016 at 8:16 AM, Neurochick said:

 

I feel so bad for Charity.  At first I thought she knew he was gay (because I sensed it) but now I know she didn't know.  I feel bad for her because now she wonders if her whole marriage is a sham.  However, if Kevin said that he had feeling for another woman, would that have been all right with Charity?  

I think it would have been easier for Charity if Kevin had feelings for another woman instead of men. I think that she may have felt like she had a fight chance for her marriage if her husband was attracted to another woman but still straight, instead of having feelings for men. I think that she feels that If he’s gay, there is no way they can save their marriage unless they live a lie.

49 minutes ago, Arcadiasw said:

 

The showdown between Lady Mae and Mavis was good but I felt there was some holding back. They know the history and truth but we the audience still don't. Lady Mae is in denial. I think she knew about Mac and Faith but didn't want to believe it.

When Mavis talked to Grace, it felt she was still holding back. There had to be have been something going on between Mavis and James back in the day. Too much emotion from Mavis as she talked about James.

 

I feel like tonight's show should have been more eventful. I still wonder if there is something else going on regarding Mavis/Lady Mae/James/Grace. I have seen people speculate that Mavis could be Grace's mother and I wonder if there is more behind their relationship than what we are being told so far. Lady Mae has such disdain for Grace and Mavis acts like more like a mother to her. What Lady Mae said to Grace at the end was cold and is not something a loving mother would say to their child. I wonder if the show will dig deeper into why Lady Mae dislikes Grace so much. 

19 minutes ago, Dee said:

Mae is a nasty piece of work. Blaming her own personal failures as a mother on Mavis, taunting Grace about losing Sophia. She truly delights in the misery of others.

Merle Dandridge is a solid actress who nails most of Grace's complex emotions, but she was totally miscast as a charismatic preacher. That said, it remains quite affecting to see the contrast of Grace's palpable reverence of God with her continual disillusionment at her family's fallibility.

The reconciliation scene between James and Grace was lovely. Keith David and Merle Dandridge work really well together.

Very telling that even after going to great lengths to make sure Henry was taken care of, Grace never once referred to him as her Grandfather.

 

I wonder why Grace was acting so distant from her grandfather. She never referred to him as grandfather or seemed to care all that much that he was dying. I wonder she didn't act more loving/caring towards him. I also wonder why Lady Mae doesn't want him around and if Grace feels like her mother is justified in treating her grandfather the way that she does. You would think that Grace would be more compassionate towards her grandfather. As far as we know right now he hasn't been revealed to be as bad as Mac is. But I wonder why the family doesn't care more about him.

Lady Mae really does seem like the type of person that has bad relationships with almost everyone in her life (Grace, Mavis, Her dad). In a way it's surprising that her and the Bishop's relationship is loving as it is, given her personality. But that seems to be one relationship of hers that is mostly solid.

Edited September 1, 2016 by Jx223

[riverheightsnancy]

7 hours ago, Jx223 said:

I feel like tonight's show should have been more eventful. I still wonder if there is something else going on regarding Mavis/Lady Mae/James/Grace. I have seen people speculate that Mavis could be Grace's mother and I wonder if there is more behind their relationship than what we are being told so far. Lady Mae has such disdain for Grace and Mavis acts like more like a mother to her. What Lady Mae said to Grace at the end was cold and is not something a loving mother would say to their child. I wonder if the show will dig deeper into why Lady Mae dislikes Grace so much. 

Yup, I was totally waiting for a slap when Lady Mae said to Mavis when she was throwing in her face  that she didn't know what it was like to have children, or be a mother/parent. I was totally waiting for the reveal that Grace is Mavis' child out of wedlock and Mae & James have raised her as their own all these years. It would makes sense why Mae seems to hate Grace.  The dialogue made me think that there was a lot unspoken in that scene. 

[Dee]

I find it amusing how sweet Kerissa has become now that Jacob isn't jockeying for position in the church.

[Joimiaroxeu]

Bet there's something shady about that church land deal and it's going to end up implicating the Greenleaf family through Jacob's involvement.

Lyn Whitfield did a great job when Lady Mae was preaching at that women's luncheon. And I loved all those church hats. I'm surprised they weren't wearing gloves too, lol.

Ugh, Noah is an unrepentant dog and I don't know why Isabel wants him back. Probably the only way that relationship might work out is if she and Noah move far, far away. Like maybe to another continent and they don't leave a forwarding address. But odds are Isabel will never feel like she can trust him and that's a tough way to decide to live. (And ICAM with comments upthread that she probably was trying to get pregnant to trap Noah and put a permanent wedge between him and Gigi.)

"Now you know how I feel every day." WTF? Gigi's daughter isn't dead, she just moved across the country for a few months. Lady Mae is too much and by "too much" I mean "a walking container of poison in a St. John's suit."

They set up a couple of decent cliffhangers. I'm looking forward to season 2.

[FairyPrincess]

12 hours ago, Arcadiasw said:

Thanks for link. I needed to read that. It answered some things and brought up more questions. Lol.

If it were the 80s, there would've been a slap followed up by a fight all through the club.

Like you, I'm thinking James set that fire to First Baptist. Maybe unwittingly committed manslaughter. Who was the caretaker though?

I'm thinking James set/set up the fire as well.  I'm thinking that the incident/church/caretaker has some connection with Skanks.  Maybe his family's previous church or the caretaker was his family member.  The beef between Bishop and Skanks seems deep rooted.

Edited September 1, 2016 by FairyPrincess

[wanderingstar]

Pastor Skanks does seem to have a very personal grudge against Bishop James. It would not surprise me if his hostility has to do with the fire at First Baptist.

[Arcadiasw]

18 hours ago, Gillian Rosh said:

I am starting to think Noah is just a big ho. And was it me, or did his and Isabel's scenes seem disconnected from everything else in this ep?

 

You weren't alone. It looked like Isabel walked out while the women were clapping for Grace. Noah suddenly appears and she suggests they go to her hotel room. I read some of the comments on Facebook Greenleaf page and someone made an excellent point Noah did the same thing to Isabel as he did to Grace when they hooked up. I guess that's all he can do. Noah and Isabel have been intimate before last night right? People on Facebook were commenting they haven't but I thought she was living with him since she took some of her things before she went away before their wedding. Speaking of the wedding, no one at the church is gossiping about that? No one knows why the wedding was cancelled or are they all assuming the Uncle Mac stuff delayed it??

 

18 hours ago, Dee said:

Loved that Bishop remained a step ahead of Pastor Jidenna. Anybody who trusts a $40 million dollar project to a new hire deserves what he gets.

Kevin and Charity's scenes were well acted but this 'pray away the gay' storyline is a waste of time.

Calling it now, Mac will be shot & killed by the end of next season, in a big whodunit mystery, with Zora as the eventual culprit.

I was floored by the money. $40 million. It shouldn't cost that much to build a community center and imagine what good they could do if they really use half that money to help the less fortunate.

I was disappointed we didn't have Charity talk to the Choir Director. If there was anyone she could've confide in or gotten advice, it would've been him. I think next season Kevin will end up on a date with the guy who suppose to help him with his problem. SMH.

Ooh, like Dallas? Zora has been oddly quiet. The writers completely dropped her drug storyline. One thing I thought was odd at the end everyone standing outside to say goodbye to Sophia except James. He stayed inside. I guess he said his goodbyes inside the house but it was weird he wasn't outside with the rest of the family. He was outside to greet her in the first episode.

 

18 hours ago, Jx223 said:

I feel like tonight's show should have been more eventful. I still wonder if there is something else going on regarding Mavis/Lady Mae/James/Grace. I have seen people speculate that Mavis could be Grace's mother and I wonder if there is more behind their relationship than what we are being told so far. Lady Mae has such disdain for Grace and Mavis acts like more like a mother to her. What Lady Mae said to Grace at the end was cold and is not something a loving mother would say to their child. I wonder if the show will dig deeper into why Lady Mae dislikes Grace so much. 

I wonder why Grace was acting so distant from her grandfather. She never referred to him as grandfather or seemed to care all that much that he was dying. I wonder she didn't act more loving/caring towards him. I also wonder why Lady Mae doesn't want him around and if Grace feels like her mother is justified in treating her grandfather the way that she does. You would think that Grace would be more compassionate towards her grandfather. As far as we know right now he hasn't been revealed to be as bad as Mac is. But I wonder why the family doesn't care more about him.

Lady Mae really does seem like the type of person that has bad relationships with almost everyone in her life (Grace, Mavis, Her dad). In a way it's surprising that her and the Bishop's relationship is loving as it is, given her personality. But that seems to be one relationship of hers that is mostly solid.

The Grandfather could be a stranger to all the Greenleaf kids. Given Lady Mae's feelings towards her father, I doubt she let the Greenleaf children as kids spend time with him. The only things Grace know of her grandfather she may know by only what Mavis and Lady Mae have said. She was also gone for 20 years. And Grace was compassionate to him. She got him in hospice instead of letting him rot away in that place he was currently living in. THat's more than what Mac did. He just gave him money instead of giving him the proper care he needed.  

Until it's said otherwise, I still think Grace is Lady Mae's biological daughter. I think she despises her because she was favored by James, she threatened the image of the Greenleaf family by coming forward with Uncle Mac and she's jealous of her child. We saw that on Women's Day. Sadly some mothers can be cold to their children.

 

7 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

"Now you know how I feel every day." WTF? Gigi's daughter isn't dead, she just moved across the country for a few months. Lady Mae is too much and by "too much" I mean "a walking container of poison in a St. John's suit."

 

Lady Mae had to get that dig in to get back at Grace for her fail on Women's Day.