Season 19: “May we live to fight another day.”

[wanderingstar]

I thought the quote that ended this season (said by Jack after he, Connie and Cutter finally take down Governor Shalvoy and his wife) was a good title for this season thread.

Episodes

Rumble

Challenged

Lost Boys

Falling

Knock Off

Sweetie

Zero

Chattel

By Perjury

Pledge

Lucky Stiff

Illegitimate

Crimebusters

Rapture

Bailout

Take-Out

Anchors Away

Promote This!

All New

Exchange

Skate or Die

The Drowned and the Saved

Recently watched several episodes from this season and realized that it had several excellent episodes, as well as a ton of great guest stars. Ned Beatty in “Zero,” Jena Malone in “Lost Boys,” Katee Sackhoff in “Knock Off,” to name just a few. (Keith Carradine in “Take-Out,” might be my favorite) Plus it had “Knock Off,” which might be one of my all-time favorite episodes of the series.

Favorite episodes:

Challenged: Poignant story about a family sending away their developmentally disabled brother and what happens when one member wants the brother to come back. This one hits home for me because I have a brother with a disability.

Take-Out: I liked the twists and turns in this one; plus Keith Carradine is great in it.

Anchors Away: Those backstabbing newscasters gave me a chuckle.

Knock-Off: The team battles an evil sheriff in a small town in upstate New York, and all sorts of hijinks ensue.

By Perjury: For Dallas Roberts’ performance and for that ending.

The Drowned and the Saved: A fantastic season finale that neatly wrapped up the storyline featuring the Governor Shalvoy and his wife and deftly set the stage for season 20. Also, Sam Waterston is fantastic in this episode.

What are your favorite episodes from this season?

[Spartan Girl]

Finally, a thread for this season!

"Challenged" was on the other day, and while I do understand the difficulties of having a mentally impaired person in your family, that family was just AWFUL. One son kills the other son, and they try to save him by getting the mentally impaired son to take the rap?! I shared Mike's disgust for them.

Even more disgusting was the murderer in "Pledge" aka Principal Snyder from Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Killing a CHILD over some ancient grudge. I did not blame his daughter one bit for selling him out for the reward money. But I was even more mad at her mother for kicking her out of the house for doing it. Not only did the guy treat her like crap, but he was still holding a torch for that sorority girl he couldn't get. And she was willing to disown her daughter for that abusive asshole?! UGH.

[Snookums]

I just rewatched Sweetie and it's really very good! Vivica A Fox gave me chills when she looks at Cutter, realized that he knows what she did but can't prove it, and moves in, dropping her polished New York act and purring "If you ever wanna party with somebody nice and tight, sugar daddy, you just give me a call." Her icy ability to use and discard, and that she learned to do it because of her hideous childhood, was terrifying. 

Edited March 31, 2017 by Snookums

[Beroglide]

they're showing "Knock Off" on ion now.  I like how they kind of "partnered" Lupo and Cutter.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Here’s hoping for more comments for this season! I think the forum had been collapsed when the thread was originally created, so most of the discussion is in the general discussion thread.

I know I’ll be paying attention to the music.

Oh and the Spitzer ripped from the headlines nonsense.

[Halting Hex]

On 6/19/2016 at 6:53 AM, Spartan Girl said:

Even more disgusting was the murderer in "Pledge" aka Principal Snyder from Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

Responding to a six-year-old post, but that's not Armin Shimerman.  That's Matt Malloy as "Ned Lasky".

"Crimebusters" (19.13) is an easy choice as my favorite of the season.  Although Lupo and Cutter going to the country to fight Evil Sheriff Kurrgan* was lots of fun, I'll agree.

*-Clancy Brown must have played a non-evil character sometime, right?  Damned if I know when, though.

Edited February 7, 2022 by Halting Hex

[GHScorpiosRule]

17 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

*-Clancy Brown must have played a non-evil character sometime, right?  Damned if I know when, though.

Of course he has!

There was that short legal show (honestly, it deserved to get cancelled) with Billy Zane. The Deep End.. He was one of the founding partners and a good guy. Then he appeared in the first season of Sleepy Hollow.

Yay!!!!! René Balcer is back to writing this season, and I can tell! Even the horrid Criminal Intent depressing musical score is gone! So far.

I'm loving all the references to Adam Schiff and previous cases.

 

[GHScorpiosRule]

So “Falling” is when season five’s “Precious” was referenced. Fine. NOW Jack can say he was wrong, but I call BULLSHIT that no one was there to “yank his leash” back then. Adam did. Judge Leon did. Even Foghorn yanked his leash on more than a few cases.

And UGH to “The Lost Boys” also before Judge Landstrom who was the judge in “Angel Grove” and refused to declare a mistrial. Is the age of consent in Arizona 16?? And if the baby was Patrick’s, Michelle was prepared to testify against Wyatt and just how would she have raised her children then?

I’m thinking the first half of the series gave cases where JUSTICE was served. And not so many that dealt with religion, but good ole’ murder, mob-related crimes!

Whaat?

[Spartan Girl]

1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

So “Falling” is when season five’s “Precious” was referenced. Fine. NOW Jack can say he was wrong, but I call BULLSHIT that no one was there to “yank his leash” back then. Adam did. Judge Leon did. Even Foghorn yanked his leash on more than a few cases.

And UGH to “The Lost Boys” also before Judge Landstrom who was the judge in “Angel Grove” and refused to declare a mistrial. Is the age of consent in Arizona 16?? And if the baby was Patrick’s, Michelle was prepared to testify against Wyatt and just how would she have raised her children then?

I’m thinking the first half of the series gave cases where JUSTICE was served. And not so many that dealt with religion, but good ole’ murder, mob-related crimes!

Whaat?

[Xeliou66]

I’ve always found Jack’s line in Falling about never having anyone there to “yank his leash” very odd, both Schiff and Branch did so. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

Oh! Clancy also voiced Odin in one of the animated shows. I’m blanking on which one.

[Xeliou66]

Crimebusters was on, this was a very unsatisfactory case in that justice wasn’t served and it wasn’t even clear who committed the crime at the end, I lean towards thinking the mom was guilty, not the guy who lost his sister in war and was mad at the army, but the viewer can’t be sure. And those “operation Molly” dipshits really fucked up the whole case, and I don’t think either party should’ve been charged with the evidence they had. I LOVED how Schiff called McCoy and offered his support and we heard Jack’s end of the conversation, that was by far the best part of the episode, it was great to get an update on Schiff, letting us know he was in Africa with Jimmy Carter doing humanitarian work, it was awesome to get updated on a beloved character like Adam, and Cutter’s line to McCoy “so that’s where you’ve been getting you’re let’s make a deal advice from” was great as well, we all know Schiff loved to “make the deal”.

Next up, Rapture, one of L&O’s weirdest and most bizarre cases, starting with the email going out about the guy’s uncle killing his aunt and Lupo/Bernard finding her body in the freezer, then the discovery of the murder of one of the websites founders and the complex case behind it. Very strange episode, but I still like it pretty good, it’s a solid case with some good moments and good lines. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

Watched the latest batch up to "Rapture" late last night, so I'm barely functioning this morning.

"By Perjury"

Oh Jack, Jack, Jack. Like you've never railed against the cops because they fucked up, or didn't get the evidence you needed to go to trial. Not once, not twice, but multiple times. At least Mike didn't lose his temper and yell at Lupo and Van Buren, like Jack did.

I did love Mercedes Ruhl's judge though. She was a hoot!

Going out of order here:

"Sweetie"

Just a waste of space and stupid episode. That's all I have to say.

"Zero"

Now this was a very good episode. Ned Beatty's Judge Reynolds just broke my heart. Now maybe it was creative license, but my understanding was that a lawyer doesn't clerk for a judge for infinity. We saw how Claire "used to" clerk for the judge back in season 4. Even in real life, attorneys at my firm have left to clerk, for about a year, and some have returned to the firm after they were done. But then those attorneys and Claire, I guess, didn't go to a "second rate" law school and were at the top of their classes.

The public defender was going to be added to the list of defense attorneys I loathe, after her "honey" to Connie, but she redeemed herself in the end.

I loved how the show ended-none of the Criminal Intent-type sonorous musical score. Just silence. I can't remember, but did Ned Beatty receive an Emmy for this performance? If he didn't, he wuz ROBBED.

"Chattel" was just rage inducing and infuriating. That in 2009, WHITE and PRIVILEGED ASSHOLES didn't see anything WRONG with buying slaves and trying to pass them off as their children. There have been so many cases where the prosecutors didn't retry or bother to try when they didn't have enough evidence for FUCKING ADULTS who were guilty and let go. Poor Patrick was manipulated and lied to into killing the Bellamys. They could have sent him back home to his family.

"Lucky Stiff" is another one that has a stupid, nimwit of a character who is a daughter of the victim-along with casting an actress with a Betty Boop/child-like squeaky voice that is like nails on a chalkboard for me.

"Illegitimate" Why???

As for "Crimebusters" I totally think Carly did it. I believed Derek just threw the brick and that's it. But politics and upcoming election and all that, I guess. One of the things I hate about this season and even last season is constantly bringing up the election for District Attorney. Case in point, the asshole defense attorney who told Jack and Connie she would use this case to "tape" against Jack's head. Too many of the defense attorneys and other agencies focusing too much on political payback or consequences. UGH. 

But I did enjoy the phone call with Adam and that Adam showed up via internet to endorse Adam. I wish Stephen Hill could have made a cameo. I miss him so much.

And in "Rapture" I loved Jack's final line about backing out of the interfaith meeting by saying "I think I'm coming down with the flu." 😝😅

Edited February 9, 2022 by GHScorpiosRule

[Spartan Girl]

1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

"Zero"

Now this was a very good episode. Ned Beatty's Judge Reynolds just broke my heart. Now maybe it was creative license, but my understanding was that a lawyer doesn't clerk for a judge for infinity. We saw how Claire "used to" clerk for the judge back in season 4. Even in real life, attorneys at my firm have left to clerk, for about a year, and some have returned to the firm after they were done. But then those attorneys and Claire, I guess, didn't go to a "second rate" law school and were at the top of their classes.

The public defender was going to be added to the list of defense attorneys I loathe, after her "honey" to Connie, but she redeemed herself in the end.

It annoyed me that we never saw any resolution let alone verdict to that case. Did the boyfriend do it or was it actually the husband?

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 minute ago, Spartan Girl said:

It annoyed me that we never saw any resolution let alone verdict to that case. Did the boyfriend do it or was it actually the husband?

All the evidence they had was against the defendant; not the husband. Though they didn't say it, I'm assuming that they just replaced the judge, just like they did in season 7's "I.D." since Jack said Judge Reynolds took medical leave.

[Spartan Girl]

Gotcha. Thanks for clearing that up.

1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

"Chattel" was just rage inducing and infuriating. That in 2009, WHITE and PRIVILEGED ASSHOLES didn't see anything with buying slaves and trying to pass them off as their children. There have been so many cases where the prosecutors didn't retry or bother to try when they didn't have enough evidence for FUCKING ADULTS who were guilty and let go. Poor Patrick was manipulated and lied to into killing the Bellamys. They could have sent him back home to his family.

Ugh yup. I cannot watch that episode without wanting to trash something. And the ending…gah. They could’ve at least sentenced him to probation and therapy too, in addition to sending him home, but nooo. They better have charged that you-know-what of a daughter with murder too since SHE was the one that forced him to do it.

[Xeliou66]

29 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

It annoyed me that we never saw any resolution let alone verdict to that case. Did the boyfriend do it or was it actually the husband?

Yeah the defendant was definitely guilty in Zero - the victim gave him her car, he went to meet his drug dealer and the dealer shot the cop while in the car, and so he killed the woman so she couldn’t link him to the car. Crazy case. But yeah it’s a really good episode and one of the sadder episodes of L&O, I really felt for the judge, who was a good judge but was just no longer mentally capable of sitting on the bench. The final scene when the judge enters Jack’s office and reminisces about Adam being in the office and how he used to eat his tuna sandwiches, but then he forgets Jack’s name moments later, was a very effective scene. Very realistic how people losing their memory can sometimes recall events from years earlier but forget things that happened moments ago, and it was sad to watch. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

"Bailout" was so fucking ridiculous. Yeah, Yeah, financial crisis, blah, blah, blah. If Gardner was on trial, I can see finding him guilty. But Ronny? He was responsible for the Blair's MURDER. And those maroons who loved Ronny sooooo much, saw that shit house. And all those broken promises. I swear, the juries in the last five seasons had shit for brains.

For some reason, I got Keith Carradine confused with David when I saw the guest credits! I mean, I KNOW who they are, but I'm so used to David being the bad guy. Of course Keith was a bad guy over on Criminal Minds, but anyway. Turns out he wasn't a bad guy, after all in "Take-Out."

But the names are getting more and more ridiculous.

Oooh! I'd forgotten Jill Eikenberry also appeared on this show! So that makes...three from the original L.A. Law that have appeared on this show. 

• Michael Tucker
• Harry Hamlin
• Jill Eikenberry

Coming close to the end of Season 19 tonight.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Finished the season last night.

Just an ETA about “Illegitimate”: purely a trivia aspect-a case about JFK, when Roache played Robert Kennedy, I think it was, in a television movie previously. 
 

But the rest? UGH.

HATED!HATED! “Promote This!” Another example of a jury that had shit for brains.

”Exchange” made no sense. It seemed like the defense attorney was in on the theft and setting up Wendy along with her brother, but the show never went there, even though she was acting shady as hell.

”All New” was pretty good, though I know I’m bring blasphemous here when I say that I hate how the fire fighters are diefied and elevated to the point that they can’t be criticized or suspected of murder or any crimes because they were among the heroes of 9/11. And H!ITG! the actor who played the fire Marshall played a uni I’m the first season on the cold opens who found the murder victims! Not Robert Clohessy, who was the asshole who endorsed Chapell. Wish we could have seen his reaction when Walters confessed what they all did-especially that Toshak was the one who killed Cooper, then raped and murdered Linda.

But The Drowned and the Saved” was the PERFECT resolution to the Shalvoy shenanigans and political power playing and a FANTASTIC season finale. Though the timing was wonky. Connie said something about the polls opening in seven hours, but it was late spring! Not November. I think I also remember how we weren’t sure if the show would be renewed and chatter was how this was a very good series finale IF the show wasn’t coming back.

JACK was AWESOME here, but so was Mike, with the bluff that ended up being true that he played to Shalvoy.

[Xeliou66]

35 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Finished the season last night.

Just an ETA about “Illegitimate”: purely a trivia aspect-a case about JFK, when Roache played Robert Kennedy, I think it was, in a television movie previously. 
 

But the rest? UGH.

HATED!HATED! “Promote This!” Another example of a jury that had shit for brains.

”Exchange” made no sense. It seemed like the defense attorney was in on the theft and setting up Wendy along with her brother, but the show never went there, even though she was acting shady as hell.

”All New” was pretty good, though I know I’m bring blasphemous here when I say that I hate how the fire fighters are diefied and elevated to the point that they can’t be criticized or suspected of murder or any crimes because they were among the heroes of 9/11. And H!ITG! the actor who played the fire Marshall played a uni I’m the first season on the cold opens who found the murder victims! Not Robert Clohessy, who was the asshole who endorsed Chapell. Wish we could have seen his reaction when Walters confessed what they all did-especially that Toshak was the one who killed Cooper, then raped and murdered Linda.

But The Drowned and the Saved” was the PERFECT resolution to the Shalvoy shenanigans and political power playing and a FANTASTIC season finale. Though the timing was wonky. Connie said something about the polls opening in seven hours, but it was late spring! Not November. I think I also remember how we weren’t sure if the show would be renewed and chatter was how this was a very good series finale IF the show wasn’t coming back.

JACK was AWESOME here, but so was Mike, with the bluff that ended up being true that he played to Shalvoy.

I thought Exchange was okay and made sense, but it was one of the few times I was annoyed with Jack, he needed to come down off his high horse, I thought Cutter’s legal strategy of using the defendant’s own words against him was clever.

I like The Drowned and the Saved as well, it was a good resolution to the Shalvoy’s storyline. Jack was awesome throughout and so was Cutter, while I had an issue with how often Cutter used some kind of trickery to win cases this season, this was one time it was done well. 

[Spartan Girl]

1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

”Exchange” made no sense. It seemed like the defense attorney was in on the theft and setting up Wendy along with her brother, but the show never went there, even though she was acting shady as hell

Hmm, never thought of that, but interesting.

I feel like I should have felt sorry for Wendy, but I didn't. She was mentally ill and set up by her brother, but she still killed all those people--horribly--and tried to sabotage that poor girl's career.

[GHScorpiosRule]

5 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

Hmm, never thought of that, but interesting.

I feel like I should have felt sorry for Wendy, but I didn't. She was mentally ill and set up by her brother, but she still killed all those people--horribly--and tried to sabotage that poor girl's career.

Would she have done that if she had been on her meds? Remember, her asshat of a brother hadn’t refilled her prescription and she had been off them for three or four months. And this led to her psychotic break.

Yeah, the defense attorney was very quick to plea Wendy out instead of looking after what was in her best interests. Why jail and not a hospital?

[Spartan Girl]

1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Would she have done that if she had been on her meds? Remember, her asshat of a brother hadn’t refilled her prescription and she had been off them for three or four months. And this led to her psychotic break.

The killing because she was off her meds I got. The part where she had been using the internet to slutshame that girl and ruin her career came off as more calculating and premeditated than something done in a psychotic rage. But I’m not a mental health expert, so I don’t know.

[Prairie Rose]

"Illegitimate" is worth watching for the mother/son duo of Rue McClanahan and Christopher McDonald. I think it's the only time I saw RM on a drama series and she's much more than Blanche Devereaux (and she was the only Golden Girl to appear on a L&O show!). CM really sold his character's obsession that he was the illegitimate son of JFK. What did you guys think?

[Xeliou66]

1 hour ago, Prairie Rose said:

"Illegitimate" is worth watching for the mother/son duo of Rue McClanahan and Christopher McDonald. I think it's the only time I saw RM on a drama series and she's much more than Blanche Devereaux (and she was the only Golden Girl to appear on a L&O show!). CM really sold his character's obsession that he was the illegitimate son of JFK. What did you guys think?

Illegitimate is funny for the scene where Cutter presses the mom about whether she slept with JFK and the mom heavily implies that she did but refuses to say it explicitly, it was obvious the writers didn’t want to piss off the Kennedy family or risk a lawsuit or something so they didn’t have the character say it explicitly but we all know she did. That just was so awkward. The rest of the episode was a convoluted mess, not one of my favorites.

[Prairie Rose]

Just now, Xeliou66 said:

Illegitimate is funny for the scene where Cutter presses the mom about whether she slept with JFK and the mom heavily implies that she did but refuses to say it explicitly, it was obvious the writers didn’t want to piss off the Kennedy family or risk a lawsuit or something so they didn’t have the character say it explicitly but we all know she did. That just was so awkward. The rest of the episode was a convoluted mess, not one of my favorites.

It really is a convoluted mess, but the performances of Rue McClanahan and Christopher McDonald were the only parts that made it worth watching. The episode had an interesting premise, but the execution really fell flat.

[GHScorpiosRule]

24 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

Illegitimate is funny for the scene where Cutter presses the mom about whether she slept with JFK and the mom heavily implies that she did but refuses to say it explicitly, it was obvious the writers didn’t want to piss off the Kennedy family or risk a lawsuit or something so they didn’t have the character say it explicitly but we all know she did. That just was so awkward. The rest of the episode was a convoluted mess, not one of my favorites.

Same. And I posted upthread that the only thing I liked about it was that fact that Linus Roache had played Robert Kennedy in a mini-series or television movie a few years before he joined this show. And I saw this episode as a *wink**wink* to that.

[Prairie Rose]

I've been rewatching S19 this week and am still amazed at how STRONG these latter era episodes still are. The cast just had amazing chemistry and it was if they had been acting together for years. "Knock Off" is probably my favorite episode of the season, but almost all of the episodes were strong. 

[Xeliou66]

Knock-Off was just on and I love this episode, my favorite of season 19. It was really interesting seeing the detectives and DA’s go upstate to the small town and deal with the corrupt sheriff - there were some humorous moments such as Lupo and Bernard at the diner and Lupo and Cutter in their hotel room and going to the judge while the judge was working on his tractor on his farm. Very good case, and I loved how Jack got Shalvoy to lift the executive privilege by threatening to impanel a grand jury about the safety of roadways. Really great episode with a nice role for everyone and it was very interesting seeing them go upstate.

[andromeda331]

9 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Knock-Off was just on and I love this episode, my favorite of season 19. It was really interesting seeing the detectives and DA’s go upstate to the small town and deal with the corrupt sheriff - there were some humorous moments such as Lupo and Bernard at the diner and Lupo and Cutter in their hotel room and going to the judge while the judge was working on his tractor on his farm. Very good case, and I loved how Jack got Shalvoy to lift the executive privilege by threatening to impanel a grand jury about the safety of roadways. Really great episode with a nice role for everyone and it was very interesting seeing them go upstate.

That was great episode. It's fun to see them in a different location.

[Xeliou66]

4 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

That was great episode. It's fun to see them in a different location.

Yes it was a great episode all around - I loved the scenes upstate, the scene in the courtroom was pretty good as well when Bernard compared it to a broom closet and the judge comes in dressed somewhat like a slob. And of course the scene of Lupo/Cutter in their hotel room with Cutter in his pajamas was good. The case was really good, I liked how they connected everything back to the sheriff and it was interesting how everyone was under his thumb, I liked when Lupo said “the only person with balls in this town is the woman who was raped by your client” when talking to the victim’s lawyer. And of course Jack finding a way to put the sheriff away was great, the look on Shalvoy’s face when Jack told him he was impaneling a grand jury and calling the trooper as a witness, you could see Shalvoy deflate. It’s my favorite episode of season 19 overall, and there were a lot of good ones. 

[andromeda331]

1 hour ago, Xeliou66 said:

Yes it was a great episode all around - I loved the scenes upstate, the scene in the courtroom was pretty good as well when Bernard compared it to a broom closet and the judge comes in dressed somewhat like a slob. And of course the scene of Lupo/Cutter in their hotel room with Cutter in his pajamas was good. The case was really good, I liked how they connected everything back to the sheriff and it was interesting how everyone was under his thumb, I liked when Lupo said “the only person with balls in this town is the woman who was raped by your client” when talking to the victim’s lawyer. And of course Jack finding a way to put the sheriff away was great, the look on Shalvoy’s face when Jack told him he was impaneling a grand jury and calling the trooper as a witness, you could see Shalvoy deflate. It’s my favorite episode of season 19 overall, and there were a lot of good ones. 

There were a lot of good episodes this season but this one is my favorite too. For the same reasons. It's just such a great episode. Taking down the Sheriff was awesome. I like the hotel scene too because that's something we never see with any of these characters. In their pajamas.

[Xeliou66]

3 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

There were a lot of good episodes this season but this one is my favorite too. For the same reasons. It's just such a great episode. Taking down the Sheriff was awesome. I like the hotel scene too because that's something we never see with any of these characters. In their pajamas.

Yeah, it was cool to see Cutter and Lupo in their hotel room doing the legal research. A lot of good interactions between the police and DA’s in that one, and yeah I loved how they found a way to nail the sheriff. 

[andromeda331]

24 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

Yeah, it was cool to see Cutter and Lupo in their hotel room doing the legal research. A lot of good interactions between the police and DA’s in that one, and yeah I loved how they found a way to nail the sheriff. 

So do I. I was really worried the first time I watched it that he was going to get away with it. 

[Xeliou66]

11 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

So do I. I was really worried the first time I watched it that he was going to get away with it. 

Yeah it’s especially satisfying to see corrupt authorities taken down. While I like how on L&O the protagonists don’t always win and justice isn’t always served, it’s always much more satisfying when it is, especially in cases like this one.

I did kind of feel bad for the deputy who killed himself after the sheriff told him he was going to pin the murder on him - yeah the deputy was corrupt but still that sheriff was an epic piece of shit, willing to throw anyone to the wolves to save his own skin. And Shalvoy was much the same way - I loved seeing him deflate after Jack said he was calling the trooper to testify before the grand jury on roadway safety. 

[Xeliou66]

Watching some season 19 today, and while I like the season, one thing that annoys me somewhat is how often Cutter had to resort to some sort of trickery to win cases this season, it got tiresome - for example in Pledge, the case against the murderer would’ve certainly been dismissed if it wasn’t for Cutter putting on the stand a woman that the defendant thought was the woman he had been obsessed with and her testifying about her happy family caused the nutcase defendant to go apeshit and confess. The case was good and Lasky’s obsession with the sorority and with Susan was an interesting motive, but I wish the resolution had been more satisfying, it strained credulity all around.

Then in the very next episode, Lucky Stiff, Cutter had to resort to trickery again to win his case, creating a fake ME’s report to turn the 2 defendants against each other. I liked when Rodgers came to his office and chewed him out for his actions and threatened to report it to Jack if it happened again. I like season 19, a lot of good plots, and overall I like Cutter, but there were too many instances of Cutter having to resort to trickery to win in season 19. 

[Spartan Girl]

“Exchange” is on. Yeah, Wendy was mentally ill and her brother was a bastard, but I still can’t feel that sorry for her. She still had enough sense to figure out Lupo and Bernard were cops wanting to question her at the office and evaded them. She tried to get her victim fired from her job by making her out to be a hooker. She murdered three innocent people for nothing, and all she could do was mewl for her stupid Sweetie Bear.

Yes, none of it would have happened if her brother hadn’t deliberately withheld her meds. But she still did it.

So when Jack ripped Cutter for supposedly ruining Wendy’s reputation in order to nail the brother, I just rolled my eyes and went “Not much of a reputation left.” I don’t think the reason WHY she did it will matter that much to the victims’ families.

Edited August 21, 2022 by Spartan Girl

[Xeliou66]

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

“Exchange” is on. Yeah, Wendy was mentally ill and her brother was a bastard, but I still can’t feel that sorry for her. She still had enough sense to figure out Lupo and Bernard were cops wanting to question her at the office and evaded them. She tried to get her victim fired from her job by making her out to be a hooker. She murdered three innocent people for nothing, and all she could do was mewl for her stupid Sweetie Bear.

Yes, none of it would have happened if her brother hadn’t deliberately withheld her meds. But she still did it.

So when Jack ripped Cutter for supposedly ruining Wendy’s reputation in order to nail the brother, I just rolled my eyes and went “Not much of a reputation left.” I don’t think the reason WHY she did it will matte4 that much to the victims’ families.

Exchange was one of the few times I was annoyed with Jack - I thought he was a hypocrite to complain about Cutter changing his theory and “tarnishing Wendy’s character”, Jack had done similar moves when he was an ADA and I thought what Cutter did was clever, it was creative to nail the scumbag brother with his own words. It felt like they just wanted some friction between McCoy and Cutter, I didn’t get why Jack was annoyed with him. I didn’t feel all that sorry for Wendy, yes she was very ill and yes her brother was manipulating her, but she went to great lengths to make Geraldine look bad so Charlie wouldn’t associate with her, and she was clever enough to evade Lupo and Bernard at the start, I agree she didn’t have much a reputation, she was a lunatic triple murderer. I like the episode, Connie was really good as always, she’s my favorite female ADA, but I didn’t get Jack complaining about Cutter’s strategy. 

[Xeliou66]

Season 19 had two episodes where there was no official title - episode 18 was titled Promote This, and episode 19 was titled All New. I guess the people at NBC were too lazy to come up with official names for the episodes. Very strange. 
 Promote This, strange title aside, is a very good episode, it was an interesting case about the hate crimes against Hispanics and it mixed in the stuff about Jack’s upcoming election well. It was interesting that we learned the name of McCoy’s ex wife, Ellen, as we heard him on the phone with her. Also, it was one of the few times the main characters left the country, Bernard, Rubirosa and ME Rodgers went to Honduras to talk to the mother of the comatose victim and get them flown back to NYC. At the end, I think it was Jack himself who tipped the victim’s mother off that if she took her son off of life support they could charge his attackers with murder and put them away for life, it wasn’t confirmed but based on Jack’s final line of “why not, everyone games the system” and his expression, I think he tipped the mother off, and I think Cutter and Rubirosa suspected that as well.

Edited November 12, 2022 by Xeliou66

[Xeliou66]

Just watched Rumble, this is a fantastic episode - very interesting how Jack charged all of the rioters with terrorism, and how Cutter and Lupo disagreed with him. It was a tough call but I was kind of on Jack’s side - the rioters needed to be punished for what happened and a message needed to be sent that vigilantism and rioting wouldn’t be tolerated - an innocent man was beaten to death by those jackasses - I felt terrible for his wife and son who got caught in the middle of the fight and watched him get killed. The rioters needed to go to prison for a long time and if putting them away for life was the only option so be it. But it was difficult because everyone there had different levels of responsibility. Cutter made very good points even though he had his doubts about Jack’s decision - I liked their final conversation and I liked how Jack thanked Mike at the press conference at the end. It was also interesting how Bernard and Lupo had different views about it based on their own experiences. It’s a really interesting episode and very well done.

Edited February 27, 2023 by Xeliou66

[andromeda331]

On 2/27/2023 at 9:23 AM, Xeliou66 said:

Just watched Rumble, this is a fantastic episode - very interesting how Jack charged all of the rioters with terrorism, and how Cutter and Lupo disagreed with him. It was a tough call but I was kind of on Jack’s side - the rioters needed to be punished for what happened and a message needed to be sent that vigilantism and rioting wouldn’t be tolerated - an innocent man was beaten to death by those jackasses - I felt terrible for his wife and son who got caught in the middle of the fight and watched him get killed. The rioters needed to go to prison for a long time and if putting them away for life was the only option so be it. But it was difficult because everyone there had different levels of responsibility. Cutter made very good points even though he had his doubts about Jack’s decision - I liked their final conversation and I liked how Jack thanked Mike at the press conference at the end. It was also interesting how Bernard and Lupo had different views about it based on their own experiences. It’s a really interesting episode and very well done.

I really liked the back and forth about whether charging them as terrorists was the right thing or not. Lupo clearly disagreed which made sense he fought terrorists. To him the rioters weren't terrorists. I'm not sure if McCoy is right or wrong. They rioted and beat an innocent man to death. Some riots are horrible. I still remember the LA riots. That was really scary. They all need to be charge with the harshest crime because of what they did and to send a message. I understood each person's opinion.

[Xeliou66]

17 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I really liked the back and forth about whether charging them as terrorists was the right thing or not. Lupo clearly disagreed which made sense he fought terrorists. To him the rioters weren't terrorists. I'm not sure if McCoy is right or wrong. They rioted and beat an innocent man to death. Some riots are horrible. I still remember the LA riots. That was really scary. They all need to be charge with the harshest crime because of what they did and to send a message. I understood each person's opinion.

I thought all of the characters made good points as well and it was an interesting debate, I understood both Bernard and Lupo’s positions about the terrorism charges and how it was shaped by their own experiences. I thought it was a very difficult case but I thought something harsh needed to be done - the rioters engaged in horrifying behavior and if that was the only way to ensure a harsh punishment for the 3 deaths, including one of an innocent man who wasn’t even involved in the riot, then I think Jack was right to use the terrorism charges. But it was a very severe thing to charge every person in the riot with. Very thought provoking and well done episode. 

[Xeliou66]

Falling is another episode where Cutter gets on my nerves - Cutter crossed the line when he tried to attach an illegal stipulation to a plea bargain and for some reason he was just on a crusade to stop the procedure on the handicapped child. Jack was absolutely right to chew him out and to come into court personally and withdraw the stipulation. It was interesting how they referenced the case from season 5’s Precious, and Jack admitted he went too far in it at the end. It was puzzling how Jack implied no one had been there to “yank his leash” in the past - because both Adam and Arthur had overruled him in the past during their tenure as DA. It’s a good episode but Cutter really irritated me.

I love Knock-Off, probably my favorite episode of season 19. Really great plot. I love seeing them all get to the bottom of the upstate corruption scandal. Interesting to see Lupo and Cutter work closely together. I loved how Jack got the upper hand on Shalvoy and forced him to turn over the tapes that had been deleted by threatening to impanel a grand jury to investigate the matter. It was interesting seeing Lupo/Bernard/Cutter/Rubirosa go upstate. Fantastic episode from start to finish. 

[buttersister]

Cutter seasons are frequently a problem because ... Cutter. I've seen Linus in other things, so maybe he's concentrating on the accent, or maybe it's the writers. Where were you going to go after Jack McCoy? I do appreciate every time Jack dumps on him, though. So there's that.

[Xeliou66]

43 minutes ago, buttersister said:

Cutter seasons are frequently a problem because ... Cutter. I've seen Linus in other things, so maybe he's concentrating on the accent, or maybe it's the writers. Where were you going to go after Jack McCoy? I do appreciate every time Jack dumps on him, though. So there's that.

Cutter is just not my favorite, it was impossible to be as good as McCoy or Stone in the lead prosecutor role, but Cutter could be overly arrogant and it seemed like he would do anything to win at times. He had his good moments but he had some where he really irritated me - in Falling like I mentioned above, in Skate or Die when he provoked the psychotic guy into attacking him, in Tango when he used the juror’s attraction to Rubirosa to his advantage and in Bogeyman when he pretended to be a part of the cult. He annoyed me in every one of those episodes. I like the later seasons and I think there were plenty of good episodes in them, but Cutter can be quite irritating at times.

[andromeda331]

On 6/11/2023 at 6:17 PM, Xeliou66 said:

Falling is another episode where Cutter gets on my nerves - Cutter crossed the line when he tried to attach an illegal stipulation to a plea bargain and for some reason he was just on a crusade to stop the procedure on the handicapped child. Jack was absolutely right to chew him out and to come into court personally and withdraw the stipulation. It was interesting how they referenced the case from season 5’s Precious, and Jack admitted he went too far in it at the end. It was puzzling how Jack implied no one had been there to “yank his leash” in the past - because both Adam and Arthur had overruled him in the past during their tenure as DA. It’s a good episode but Cutter really irritated me.

I love Knock-Off, probably my favorite episode of season 19. Really great plot. I love seeing them all get to the bottom of the upstate corruption scandal. Interesting to see Lupo and Cutter work closely together. I loved how Jack got the upper hand on Shalvoy and forced him to turn over the tapes that had been deleted by threatening to impanel a grand jury to investigate the matter. It was interesting seeing Lupo/Bernard/Cutter/Rubirosa go upstate. Fantastic episode from start to finish. 

I laughed hard the first time I watched that episode and Jack implied that no one yanked his chain. Really, Jack? Have you forgotten all the times that Adam and Arthur did? There were a lot. The only difference is now your the one in the hotseat not Adam or Arthur.  I wished they had brought up the episode Precious. That would have been great for him to talk about how he was wrong then and Cutter was wrong now. They can't do that.

[Xeliou66]

5 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

I laughed hard the first time I watched that episode and Jack implied that no one yanked his chain. Really, Jack? Have you forgotten all the times that Adam and Arthur did? There were a lot. The only difference is now your the one in the hotseat not Adam or Arthur.  I wished they had brought up the episode Precious. That would have been great for him to talk about how he was wrong then and Cutter was wrong now. They can't do that.

They did bring up the episode Precious, and Jack said he overstepped then, it was a good callback and nice continuity. But yeah Adam and Arthur stepped in and overruled Jack on more than one occasion, so people were there to yank his leash, so that was a really puzzling line at the end. Cutter was way out of line in this episode.

[andromeda331]

12 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

They did bring up the episode Precious, and Jack said he overstepped then, it was a good callback and nice continuity. But yeah Adam and Arthur stepped in and overruled Jack on more than one occasion, so people were there to yank his leash, so that was a really puzzling line at the end. Cutter was way out of line in this episode.

I know I just would have liked a little more given how out of line Cutter was.  

[Xeliou66]

Knock-Off is such a great episode, it’s really interesting to see the detectives and prosecutors go to a small town upstate outside of NYC and deal with the corrupt sheriff and the inept judge. Very strong case with good stuff for the detectives and DAs. I liked seeing Lupo and Cutter in their hotel room, it was so unusual to see them in a casual setting with Cutter in his pajamas, and it was interesting seeing Cutter and Lupo work together in the small town to get to the truth. Jack was great as always, and it was very satisfying to see him get the upper hand on Shalvoy at the end and force his hand to turn on the scummy sheriff. I loved Jack’s “I’m too old to play Hamlet” line, funny since Sam did play Hamlet in theater productions years earlier, and when the woman who ran the AA meetings said she had to answer to a higher authority, Bernard replied “so do we, you haven’t met our lieutenant”, that was great. It was interesting seeing Bernard talk about how he hated small towns while Lupo liked them. This is probably my favorite season 19 episode, and 19 is a good season, this one is outstanding, great case and great character interactions.

Sweetie is an interesting episode, even though it was ultimately predictable that the literary agent would turn out to be the murderer. It was still an interesting plot that took some good twists and turns, and it was kind of a surprise that Sweetie’s story was actually the murderer’s story, that she was the real “Sweetie Ness”. I doubt they could ever prove she committed the murder though, so it’s likely no justice could ever be served, which sometimes happens. Pretty good episode.

Watching Zero now, with the judge with dementia, I felt sorry for the judge, he was a good judge and decent man who just couldn’t come to terms with the fact that he was no one longer mentally fit to preside over cases. Dementia is a terrible illness, I’ve had a couple of family members who developed it late in life. I was surprised that Jack wasn’t more concerned about the judge’s mental state, and it was interesting that it was Cutter who was for once more concerned about ethics and doing the right thing than winning the trial, frequently Cutter came off as though he would do anything to win, but in this case Cutter wanted to ensure there were no miscarriages of justice with a mentally unfit judge. The case kind of took a backseat to the situation with the judge, but it was interesting. 

[balmz]

3 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Knock-Off is such a great episode, it’s really interesting to see the detectives and prosecutors go to a small town upstate outside of NYC and deal with the corrupt sheriff and the inept judge. Very strong case with good stuff for the detectives and DAs. I liked seeing Lupo and Cutter in their hotel room, it was so unusual to see them in a casual setting with Cutter in his pajamas, and it was interesting seeing Cutter and Lupo work together in the small town to get to the truth. Jack was great as always, and it was very satisfying to see him get the upper hand on Shalvoy at the end and force his hand to turn on the scummy sheriff. I loved Jack’s “I’m too old to play Hamlet” line, funny since Sam did play Hamlet in theater productions years earlier, and when the woman who ran the AA meetings said she had to answer to a higher authority, Bernard replied “so do we, you haven’t met our lieutenant”, that was great. It was interesting seeing Bernard talk about how he hated small towns while Lupo liked them. This is probably my favorite season 19 episode, and 19 is a good season, this one is outstanding, great case and great character interactions.

Sweetie is an interesting episode, even though it was ultimately predictable that the literary agent would turn out to be the murderer. It was still an interesting plot that took some good twists and turns, and it was kind of a surprise that Sweetie’s story was actually the murderer’s story, that she was the real “Sweetie Ness”. I doubt they could ever prove she committed the murder though, so it’s likely no justice could ever be served, which sometimes happens. Pretty good episode.

Watching Zero now, with the judge with dementia, I felt sorry for the judge, he was a good judge and decent man who just couldn’t come to terms with the fact that he was no one longer mentally fit to preside over cases. Dementia is a terrible illness, I’ve had a couple of family members who developed it late in life. I was surprised that Jack wasn’t more concerned about the judge’s mental state, and it was interesting that it was Cutter who was for once more concerned about ethics and doing the right thing than winning the trial, frequently Cutter came off as though he would do anything to win, but in this case Cutter wanted to ensure there were no miscarriages of justice with a mentally unfit judge. The case kind of took a backseat to the situation with the judge, but it was interesting. 

With jack and the judge in zero, maybe it was jack was scared of his own morality and the judges state was an unpleasant what if that jack may face one day