Season 7: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[ParadoxLost]

I was reading comments on another site and they brought up two things I found curious:

1) Do they put a wight or White Walker in the pit.  I've seen both

2) How do they get it back to the pit.

It made me wonder.  The leaks say that Thoros dies slowly after being attacked by a wight Polar bear.

So, does Dany rescue Thoros alive only for him to die later and they intentionally let him become a wight.  Then the Mountain chops him up and Jon finally kills him

[GrailKing]

So if Sansa is down at the Vale is there a Weirwood tree; or did Bran progressed to the point he doesn't need them to communicate he could use any tree?

[GrailKing]

14 minutes ago, SeanC said:

WOTW:  Indira Varma and Rosabell Laurenti-Sellers are in Spain.  The site speculates that the parade sequence is going to be Ellaria and Tyene dragged through the streets after being defeated by Euron.

I think this could be really brutal for those two, especially once they are face to face with Cersei.

Do you think one of the SS will be tied to the Silent.?

[anamika]

14 hours ago, Edith said:

Isn't there a theory that Sansa could have had already had a "wolf dream" in the book? the one that prompted the building of the snow castle? I think a read a theory about that.

No, Sansa does not have any wolf dreams, seeing as she does not have a wolf. Wolf dreams usually involve howling, moons, running with/ missing the pack, blood, feeding etc. Unless Sansa mentions any of this, I doubt it's a wolf dream. It's like Jon and Arya are wolves themselves when they have those dreams or they actually warg into their wolves. Arya leading her pack as Nymeria or Jon missing the rest of the direwolves.

Bran communicates with Jon through a weirwood in his wolf dream. That's like inception type communication. Same with Arya, where he watches her as a weirwood in her wolf dream. With Theon he uses the WF Weirwood trees which seem to whisper his name.

14 hours ago, Edith said:

How she said that she doesn't remember if she dreamed but how she woke up wanting to built Winterfell and how she remembered every single detail of the castle, details that only Bran knows.

I don't recall reading this.

Edited December 14, 2016 by anamika

[Eyes High]

16 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

I was reading comments on another site and they brought up two things I found curious:

1) Do they put a wight or White Walker in the pit.  I've seen both

2) How do they get it back to the pit.

It made me wonder.  The leaks say that Thoros dies slowly after being attacked by a wight Polar bear.

So, does Dany rescue Thoros alive only for him to die later and they intentionally let him become a wight.  Then the Mountain chops him up and Jon finally kills him

I can't keep WOTW, Awayfortheleads and the 4chan kid's info straight anymore, but I think one of them said that the wight isn't any of the characters we know; it's just a random wight.

Caceres filming looks like it involves a bunch of goldcloaks and Lannister soldiers. One of the local journalists claims that Dany is on the scene. Emilia Clarke was spotted in Madrid yesterday, so, maybe...?

A bunch of Croatia filming pics have been snapped. It's Cersei and Jaime walking around castle battlements, as far as I can tell. Unfortunately, the full size photos are behind a paywall and only thumbnails can be seen. There is a picture of a guy in what looks like a version of Jaime's Lannister armour, only it's in black and silver instead of red and gold. Someone claims to see Jeremy Podeswa in the filming pics, but I can't tell.

Edited December 14, 2016 by Eyes High

[GrailKing]

14 hours ago, anamika said:

No, Sansa does not have any wolf dreams, seeing as she does not have a wolf. Wolf dreams usually involve howling, moons, running with/ missing the pack, blood, feeding etc. Unless Sansa mentions any of this, I doubt it's a wolf dream. It's like Jon and Arya are wolves themselves when they have those dreams or they actually warg into their wolves. Arya leading her pack as Nymeria or Jon missing the rest of the direwolves.

Bran communicates with Jon through a weirwood in his wolf dream. That's like inception type communication. Same with Arya, where he watches her as a weirwood in her wolf dream. With Theon he uses the WF Weirwood trees which seem to whisper his name.

I don't recall reading this.

Actually all one has to do is bond with their wolf, GRRM through the characters (six skins is one )says part of the person and part of the animal enter each other, especially upon death of one or the other.

I believe Sansa bonded first because Lady was totally obedient to Sansa's will, while all the other wolves were still independent of their owners to a point.

Warging one needs a higher level so you can enter the mind of the animal, with Lady dead Sansa can't enter her, but that doesn't keep Sansa from warging another animal she just needs an emotional attachment and some sort of push.

Sansa does hear wolves when she is at the Eyrie, I also believe she is already a weak warg, I think at the BBW when she touches Sandor and remembers later a kiss, I think Sansa got into his head she has to have a physical contact with someone to do this; I would not be surprised if that's what happened when she backed away from Petyr's kiss after the snow castle, or that Bran did communicate with her through his powers.

Do I have any proof, no; but GRRM stated ALL the Stark kids ARE WARGS.

P.S: let's not forget the old dog at Baleish's keep.

Edited December 14, 2016 by GrailKing

[GrailKing]

WOTW has pictures:

Yara, Elliria,Tyene,Jamie,Cersei and the Mountain all in KL

http://watchersonthewall.com/new-photos-lena-headey-nikolaj-coster-waldau-filming-game-thrones-dubrovnik/

along with other photos.

[GrailKing]

http://www.hoy.es/fotos/caceres/201612/14/juego-tronos-rueda-parte-21684103487-mm.html?edition=

[SimoneS]

Yara is hurt, but alive. Thank goodness! Best spoiler evah! 

Edited December 14, 2016 by SimoneS

[GrailKing]

26 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Yara is hurt, but alive. Thank goodness! Best spoiler evah! 

I guess it answered my question to Sean C above.

[Wouter]

2 hours ago, GrailKing said:

Actually all one has to do is bond with their wolf, GRRM through the characters (six skins is one )says part of the person and part of the animal enter each other, especially upon death of one or the other.

I believe Sansa bonded first because Lady was totally obedient to Sansa's will, while all the other wolves were still independent of their owners to a point.

Warging one needs a higher level so you can enter the mind of the animal, with Lady dead Sansa can't enter her, but that doesn't keep Sansa from warging another animal she just needs an emotional attachment and some sort of push.

Sansa does hear wolves when she is at the Eyrie,

There was a moment, during the descent of the Eyrie, when Sansa needed courage and she imagined the presence of her wolf Lady, for just a moment. This is likely an after effect of the bonding, as Martin has stated that part of the animal remains with the warg after death (and vice-versa).

[Eyes High]

WOTW said that Yara, Tyene and Ellaria's shame parade happens in Episode 3, meaning that the naval battle that results in their capture likely occurs in Episode 2.

In between leaks and filming info, it looks like this is the order for the big deaths for Season 7:

Episode 2: Obara and Nym (killed by Euron)

Episode 3: Olenna (swallows poison with Jaime's permission), Tyene (poisoned by Euron while Ellaria is forced to watch)

Episode 4: Randyll and Dickon Tarly (roasted by Drogon)

Episode 6: Thoros (death by polar bear), possibly Benjen if the 4chan kid was right (swarmed by wights)

Episode 7: Littlefinger (killed by Arya on Sansa's orders)

Question marks: Grey Worm (absent from 7x07 meeting in KL), Yara, Ellaria

Awayforthelads said that the biggest death of the season is Littlefinger.

Edited December 15, 2016 by Eyes High

[SeanC]

When I heard about Yara being abducted I initially figured that Theon's story would be trying to save her, but we've gotten no further information on that point.  It would make a fitting finale for Theon's season, of which we really don't know anything beyond winning a fistfight with that guy.

Unrelatedly, speculation on episode counts for this year based on filming spoilers/leaks:

Daenerys: 7 episodes (doesn't seem like there's any gaps in her story that would cause a missed episode)

Jon: 7 episodes (likewise here)

Tyrion:  6-7 episodes (only place I could see him missing an episode is if we don't see the southern theatre in 706)

Cersei: 5-7 episodes (might possibly miss the episode where Jaime and Dany's armies clash, and possibly 706)

Jaime: 6-7 episodes (as with Cersei and Tyrion, might conceivably miss 706)

Sansa - 6-7 episodes (only place she could miss an episode is if Winterfell isn't in either 705 or 706; the leaks specify her as being in 701-704, and everybody should be in 707)

Arya - 5-7 episodes (if we're going by the leak, she's at the Twins at 701, and gets to Winterfell in 704; in the intervening episodes she has a brief run-in with Nymeria, which I'd guess will be its own episode and it's possible we get a 703 ending with Arya looking at Winterfell in the distance; if Winterfell wasn't in one of the later episodes, she'd miss that)

Bran - 4-6 episodes (per filming spoilers, is at the Wall in 701, and the leaks say he gets home in 703; I don't think they'll bother with a 702 travel interlude for him, so he'll miss that one; my calculations include him possibly missing an episode after that just because I think the writers could easily write Winterfell scenes and not have Bran appear, since it sounds like he just hooks himself up to the weirwood on his return)

Edited December 14, 2016 by SeanC

[GrailKing]

With that sneak 3 second peek and the spoiler, I wonder if Bran will convey all to Sansa via the Winterfell Heart tree, instead of in person as it would take days for him to get to WF and time could be of importance.

[SeanC]

1 minute ago, GrailKing said:

With that sneak 3 second peek and the spoiler, I wonder if Bran will convey all to Sansa via the Winterfell Heart tree, instead of in person as it would take days for him to get to WF and time could be of importance.

Bran gets to Winterfell in 703.  Sansa doesn't learn about Littlefinger's treachery until the end of the season, presumably in the finale.

[GrailKing]

2 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Bran gets to Winterfell in 703.  Sansa doesn't learn about Littlefinger's treachery until the end of the season, presumably in the finale.

Is that based on the leaks?

I think in book she find out differently, I hope for that to be via wiernet.

[SeanC]

7 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Is that based on the leaks?

The leaks say that Bran gets to Winterfell in 703, and both the leaks and WOTW talk about the Stark reunions and that the Winterfell plot is driven by Littlefinger fanning conflict between Sansa and Arya.

[GrailKing]

OK.

[SimoneS]

I liked the idea of Varys killing Littlefinger, but the Starks taking him out is more fitting and dramatic. I hope that he does not die too quickly. l want him to realize that all his machinations came to naught before he dies. 

Edited December 15, 2016 by SimoneS

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, SimoneS said:

I liked the idea of Varys killing Littlefinger, but the Starks taking him out is more fitting and drama. I hope that he does die too quickly. l want him to realize that all his machinations came to naught before he dies. 

To me it wouldn't fit for it to be Vary's; mainly because LF wasn't really playing against Varys, but playing for himself and a vendetta against the Starks,Arynn and Tullys for a slight to himself.

[Wouter]

21 hours ago, GrailKing said:

Is that based on the leaks?

I think in book she find out differently, I hope for that to be via wiernet.

Bran could still show her visual images through the tree. Allthough that would depend on them being able to actually film those scenes, which should include Joffrey.

[GrailKing]

http://www.hoy.es/fotos/caceres/201612/15/tarly-ultimo-rodaje-juego-21710313898-mm.html#

 

If you are wondering about Sam and Gilly and little Sam.

35 minutes ago, Wouter said:

Bran could still show her visual images through the tree. Allthough that would depend on them being able to actually film those scenes, which should include Joffrey.

Been wondering if Bran would also show Sansa running to the queen, but the way they filmed it in season one I don't think so.

Just something that came to mind.

[Eyes High]

34 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

  Hide contents

http://www.hoy.es/fotos/caceres/201612/15/tarly-ultimo-rodaje-juego-21710313898-mm.html#

If you are wondering about Sam and Gilly and little Sam.

Matt Shakman was spotted at the Caceres filming for the Sam/Gilly scene. Awayforthelads said that Sam and Gilly leave for Winterfell in Episode 5, so this scene is likely from Episode 5, with Sam, Gilly, and baby Sam peacing out of Oldtown dressed for winter.

Dubrovnik filming today included shots with (fake) snow, with Jeremy Podeswa (7x01, 7x07) still on the scene. Looks like we're getting a scene with the first winter snows hitting KL. It's about time.

You know, even with all the leaks, there's still quite a lot we don't know about Season 7. Just as an example, in 7x01, even if the leaker is correct, we only know of five scenes: a) Jon arguing with the Northern lords and ladies over what's going to happen to the Karstark/Umber heirs, b) Dany landing at Dragonstone, c) Bran arriving at the Wall and meeting Dolorous Edd, d) Arya murdering the Freys, and e) Jaime and Cersei walking the battlements of the Red Keep. That's maybe 15 minutes.

Edited December 15, 2016 by Eyes High

[ElizaD]

I think there will probably be a Cersei/Euron scene in the first episode : the sea battle is in the second and surely they'll want to establish that alliance onscreen instead of just telling us about it.

[FemmyV]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

a) Jon arguing with the Northern lords and ladies over what's going to happen to the Karstark/Umber heirs,

The Umbers, in particular, had better return x5 whatever break Jon gives them. They are the reason Rickon is dead, and if Bran is permanently disabled everywhere below the waist, the last chance the Starks' male line had to reproduce.

[Eyes High]

23 minutes ago, FemmyV said:

The Umbers, in particular, had better return x5 whatever break Jon gives them. They are the reason Rickon is dead, and if Bran is permanently disabled everywhere below the waist, the last chance the Starks' male line had to reproduce.

Name-wise, is the loss of the chance for issue from male Starks really such a big deal? If worst comes to worst, Arya and Sansa can give their kids the Stark name. If the story about Bael the Bard and the Stark heir's daughter is true, the Stark name has been preserved once that way before. One or both of Arya and Sansa may well choose to marry down (Arya/Gendry, Sandor/Sansa), and I doubt their lower-status partners would object to their offspring carrying the Stark name rather than theirs.

As for the young male actor we're assuming is SmallestJon, he only appears in the one scene in 7x01, although I suppose he could always come back in a big way in Season 8.

[FemmyV]

35 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Name-wise, is the loss of the chance for issue from male Starks really such a big deal?

For the purposes of this exercise - willful betrayal vs not 'answering the call'- yes.

[Constantinople]

2 hours ago, FemmyV said:

The Umbers, in particular, had better return x5 whatever break Jon gives them. They are the reason Rickon is dead, and if Bran is permanently disabled everywhere below the waist, the last chance the Starks' male line had to reproduce.

The Stark name will live on in House Starkgaryen, founded by Jon and possibly Daenerys.

Or not.

[SeanC]

7 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Matt Shakman was spotted at the Caceres filming for the Sam/Gilly scene. Awayforthelads said that Sam and Gilly leave for Winterfell in Episode 5, so this scene is likely from Episode 5, with Sam, Gilly, and baby Sam peacing out of Oldtown dressed for winter.

Not that inconsistent travel times are new or anything, but I'm kind of amused that Sam took from 510 to 610 to get from the Wall to Oldtown, but the journey from Oldtown to Winterfell will take from 705 to 707.

[anamika]

3 hours ago, SeanC said:

Not that inconsistent travel times are new or anything, but I'm kind of amused that Sam took from 510 to 610 to get from the Wall to Oldtown, but the journey from Oldtown to Winterfell will take from 705 to 707.

Well, he's not taking a detour to Horn Hill this time. Besides, just looking at Jon's Westeros World Tour next season (WF- Dragonstone - Eastwatch by the Sea - North of the wall - KL- boat heading North - that's almost one location per episode!) , it's clear that the writers just don't care about travel times and distances at this point.

[OhOkayWhat]

36 minutes ago, anamika said:

it's clear that the writers just don't care about travel times and distances at this point

Travels, characters, time... all of them are elements of the narrative, and the narrative uses them to tell a story. Time and distance does not exist always in the highest level of the narrative needs pyramid.

Edited December 16, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[Happy Harpy]

18 hours ago, Constantinople said:

The Stark name will live on in House Starkgaryen, founded by Jon and possibly Daenerys.

Or not.

It would be funny if the main Houses still standing ended-up with "Stark" in it.

Gendry Arya could found House Barstark as a tribute to Gendry's status and to their fathers. Since it sounds like a Ned/Robert portmanteau ship name.

House Lannistark has a very nice ring to it and if Tywin was buried under the Sept of Baelor (since his wake was there?) I can picture Tyrion sitting in front of the ruins and trying to see if the old man's rolling in his grave at the sacrilege of changing The Name, while clinking glasses with Sansa.

Joke aside and serious spoiler talk, I'm one of those holding on to the hope that Euron has a reason to keep Yara alive. Lure Theon, get some intel on Danaerys, promised her to someone (after all he marries her off in the books IIRC?). I would hate for her to be Rickon'ed. And even though I'm sure she'll keep her head high, I do not look forward to the humiliation (and female humiliation) that the parade seems to promise.

I didn't hate the Sand Snakes as much as many, and the alliance with Daenerys at least gave enough/minimum sense to the storyline. If the leaks are true I think that Indira Varma will have a chance to shine. Sometimes I wonder if, being a kind of abridged version, the show doesn't stress the parts that weren't part of ASOIAF's initial core and make their relative/mileage varying irrelevance more obvious?   

So, Sam leaves Oldtown in 7x05 and has reached destination in the finale? I guess there will be quite a handful of "Varys is on the ship?" moments. But I don't mind, especially when I imagine that with the pacing involved by less episodes, S7 might be a string of 6x10 equivalents.

[Constantinople]

28 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

I'm one of those holding on to the hope that Euron has a reason to keep Yara alive. Lure Theon, get some intel on Danaerys, promised her to someone (after all he marries her off in the books IIRC?). I would hate for her to be Rickon'ed. And even though I'm sure she'll keep her head high, I do not look forward to the humiliation (and female humiliation) that the parade seems to promise.

Euron might keep Yara alive just to torment her.  I think that's the kind of thing he would enjoy.  Granted, in Season 6 Euron said, "Where are my niece and nephew?  Let's go murder them", but he might feel much comfortable leaving Yara alive in the Black Cells than he would have on the Iron Islands.

I'm not saying this will happen.  I'm terrible at predictions unless I remember to add "Or not" at the end.  And even if she is thrown in the Black Cells, that doesn't mean it will end well for her.  GoT may have hit its escape quota.

[Happy Harpy]

Just now, Constantinople said:

I'm not saying this will happen.  I'm terrible at predictions unless I remember to add "Or not" at the end.  And even if she is thrown in the Black Cells, that doesn't mean it will end well for her.  GoT may have hit its escape quota.

Oh, nobody knows for sure what will happen so at this point we're all stuck in the wishful thinking/fear dual maze imo. And whatever happens to her in the end, probability is high that Yara's captivity will be no bed of roses indeed. But if there's an escape quota, if the Dornish women and Olenna don't make it, I still hope that Yara will be it.

Arya needs a good ship captain for her West of Westeros exploration...

[SeanC]

Vulture just put up an interview with Sophie, which indicates that she's finished shooting her Season 7 scenes.  She and Maisie have been basically absent from the set since the end of September, so I was wondering if there was more to come, but evidently they really crammed the Winterfell shooting into a short span. Technically she's not quoted as saying that, but one of those video interviews she did on this LA trip had the interviewer say the same thing, so I'd tend to believe it.

The rest of the interview is the same general talking points about Sansa wanting respect, etc., so nothing terribly new there.  It the leaks are to be believed, I think Sophie would on some level be disappointed that Sansa never goes bad, because she's always talked about the idea of Dark Sansa with a ton of enthusiasm.

[OhOkayWhat]

21 minutes ago, SeanC said:

I think Sophie would on some level be disappointed that Sansa never goes bad, because she's always talked about the idea of Dark Sansa with a ton of enthusiasm.

Maybe is not the "darkness" she liked in the "new" Sansa, maybe it is just the fact it was a "different" Sansa the thing she liked. 

Reading some reactions to the interview in other board, is clear to me that some people do not understand that it is possible that Sophie, as an actress, analyze Sansa in a different way than a fan maybe does.

Edited December 17, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[SeanC]

24 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

Maybe is not the "darkness" she liked in the "new" Sansa, maybe it is just the fact it was a "different" Sansa the thing she liked. 

Oh, I'm sure Sophie enjoys getting to actually "do" stuff compared to the early seasons where the writers had the character almost entirely passive, but beyond that she's talked a lot about loving dark, twisted stories, her interest in psychopaths, wanting Littlefinger on the throne, etc.  I think she likes the idea of Sansa as a more villainous character.

Edited December 17, 2016 by SeanC

[OhOkayWhat]

8 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Oh, I'm sure Sophie enjoys getting to actually "do" stuff compared to the early seasons where the writers had the character almost entirely passive, but beyond that she's talked a lot about living dark, twisted stories, her interest in psychopaths, wanting Littlefinger on the throne, etc.  I think she likes the idea of Sansa as a more villainous character.

Interesting....perhaps she is interested on to portray how power changes people, in Sansa case, it is related to the darkness within this "new" Sansa.

Edited December 17, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[Eyes High]

46 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Vulture just put up an interview with Sophie, which indicates that she's finished shooting her Season 7 scenes.  She and Maisie have been basically absent from the set since the end of September, so I was wondering if there was more to come, but evidently they really crammed the Winterfell shooting into a short span.

From the leaks, it sounds as if Sansa won't have that much to do during Season 7, the scenes she does have are straightforward dialogue-only scenes, and she's not involved in the big set pieces or exterior shoots that take ages to film, so I'm not surprised that she has already finished shooting.

20 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Oh, I'm sure Sophie enjoys getting to actually "do" stuff compared to the early seasons where the writers had the character almost entirely passive, but beyond that she's talked a lot about living dark, twisted stories, her interest in psychopaths, wanting Littlefinger on the throne, etc.  I think she likes the idea of Sansa as a more villainous character.

Probably. Sophie also enjoys trolling the fandom, so I could see her gleefully teasing Dark Sansa to mess with people. 

According to the leaker, Sansa does want power, but the Jon/Sansa conflict is a non-starter once Jon leaves Sansa in charge during his absence. It seems like Sansa wanting power is a source of friction between Arya and Sansa, since Arya accuses Sansa of wanting to usurp Jon, but that the conflict between the two is resolved by the end of the season in any event. I think the WOTW mention of the Arya/Sansa conflict hinted that Arya and Sansa would eventually iron things out, so I expect that Arya will eventually be satisfied that Sansa has no intention of undermining Jon's authority.

Edited December 17, 2016 by Eyes High

[anamika]

1 hour ago, OhOkayWhat said:

 

Reading some reactions to the interview in other board, is clear to me that some people do not understand that it is possible that Sophie, as an actress, analyze Sansa in a different way than a fan maybe does.

It's not her analyzing Sansa in a different way that I think people have a problem with - it's her reading the narrative in a different way than what was presented to us last season. We will continue to see this next season as well.

Like, do you think that Jon did not listen to Sansa because of sexism and the patriarchy?

Things Sansa said that Jon did not listen to include disparaging Davos and Tormund. Davos got them Mormont support and Tormund got them Wildling support. They are older and wiser. Why would Jon not listen to them? What did Sansa get Jon?

Her scolding him for not getting enough men. Jon did his best to get enough men. They just did not have enough time, many houses refused and Sansa kept the offer of the Vale army from him.

Other things - he did not ask her about Ramsay. Again this is just so nonsensical to me. That Jon had to specifically ask her about Ramsay. Jon had no problems before when Sansa spoke up in episode 4 and 5 at the table - first demanding that he fight and second upbraiding Davos about the North and the Karstarks. Where was the sexism and patriarchy then?

But this is all rehashing old stuff again. I am looking forward to Sophie's interviews next season, now that it's Sansa Vs Arya. She can't use the sexism and patriarchy argument, she probably won't call Arya a wimp and incompetent. It will be interesting to see her interpretation/writer interpretation of Arya Vs Sansa.

40 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

According to the leaker, Sansa does want power, but the Jon/Sansa conflict is a non-starter once Jon leaves Sansa in charge during his absence. It seems like Sansa wanting power is a source of friction between Arya and Sansa, since Arya accuses Sansa of wanting to usurp Jon, but that the conflict between the two is resolved by the end of the season in any event. I think the WOTW mention of the Arya/Sansa conflict hinted that Arya and Sansa would eventually iron things out, so I expect that Arya will eventually be satisfied that Sansa has no intention of undermining Jon's authority.

I think book Sansa will indeed be darker and more power hungry if we get the Sansa/LF combine against KITN Jon/Rickon. Or maybe there is no time for all that and by the time Sansa gets to be in charge of the Vale at the end of book 6 or book 7, the fight against the Others may have engulfed the 7K and she decides to help out instead of fight against her family.

The Sansa/Arya conflict we see next season could be some version of them resolving their differences in the books.

Edited December 17, 2016 by anamika

[SeanC]

34 minutes ago, anamika said:

Other things - he did not ask her about Ramsay. Again this is just so nonsensical to me. That Jon had to specifically ask her about Ramsay. Jon had no problems before when Sansa spoke up in episode 4 and 5 at the table - first demanding that he fight and second upbraiding Davos about the North and the Karstarks. Where was the sexism and patriarchy then?

I don't know what the show's overall stance on the sexism argument is, but on the specific issue of Jon asking about Ramsay, everything we've seen indicates that Sophie's position is the one shared by the writers, etc.  Both Benioff (in the BTS videos) and Sapochnik (in the Blu-ray commentary) endorse the idea that Sansa was left out of the meeting.  Which, yes, makes no sense since in prior meetings she contributed just fine.  But there you have it.

[anamika]

38 minutes ago, SeanC said:

I don't know what the show's overall stance on the sexism argument is, but on the specific issue of Jon asking about Ramsay, everything we've seen indicates that Sophie's position is the one shared by the writers, etc.  Both Benioff (in the BTS videos) and Sapochnik (in the Blu-ray commentary) endorse the idea that Sansa was left out of the meeting.  Which, yes, makes no sense since in prior meetings she contributed just fine.  But there you have it.

Oh, I agree. Sophie is just saying what the writers wrote for her. It's just that we only get Sophie trying to explain that nonsense and hence all that ire is directed towards her. If it was David and Dan giving these interviews, no doubt they would get roundly criticized as well.

Which is why I am interested in seeing how they write Sansa Vs Arya. How are they now going to frame shitty arguments like sexism and Sansa getting 'disrespected'? I am just keeping my fingers crossed that Arya's characterization is not as butchered as Jon's was last season to prop up Sansa and justify her decisions. In the books,  Arya knows more about WF and it's people than Sansa does.

Show Bran's a lost cause anyways - he's just looking into Jon's parents for the 623rd time and waiting until the finale to tell Sansa about LF. That's his only purpose on the show. What a waste. I feel sorry for the Bran fans out there. They will have to wait for the books to get the good Bran stuff.

Edited December 17, 2016 by anamika

[OhOkayWhat]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

It's not her analyzing Sansa in a different way that I think people have a problem with - it's her reading the narrative in a different way than what was presented to us last season. We will continue to see this next season as well.

I am talking about the people who think Sophie is trying to diminish other actors characters and trying to put the spotlight on her, that she wants desesperately attention talking about Sansa.

I think some people does not get, that even if sometimes the actors are fan of their own characters, they also are actors. They know they are playing fictional people. Some fans keep forgetting that: fans are fans, actors are actors.

They have not special interest on to insult fictional people.

It is the same when some fans say that the showrunners write some characters certain way because they "hate" the character.... what? That does not make sense.

Edited December 17, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[OhOkayWhat]

16 minutes ago, anamika said:

Show Bran's a lost cause anyways - he's just looking into Jon's parents for the 623rd time and waiting until the finale to tell Sansa about LF. That's his only purpose on the show. What a waste. I feel sorry for the Bran fans out there. They will have to wait for the books to get the good Bran stuff.

If I am not wrong, the leaks say that Meera thinks Bran is losing himself in his new role.... it will be interesting to contrast it with the warm and caring Bran of previous seasons .

Therefore it seems there will be character development with Bran too, if Meera is right, his change is big. 

A different issue is if people does not like the "new" Bran, but that is, like in so many other cases within the fandom, a matter of what fans wish for the characters.

Edited December 17, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[Eyes High]

Someone took a picture of Joseph Mawle (Benjen), Iain Glen, and Kristofer Hivju together. They deleted it from their Instagram pretty quickly, though. This seems supportive of the 4chan kid's claim that Benjen is present during the big wight battle. If I remember correctly, according to the 4chan kid, Benjen shows up to save Jon and gives him his horse to help Jon escape (Benjen ex machina, hee). Jon flees, and Benjen is swarmed by wights. Maybe we can move Benjen from the question mark column to the death column.

Quote

If I am not wrong, the leaks say that Meera thinks Bran is losing himself in his new role.... it will be interesting to contrast it with the warm and caring Bran of previous seasons .

You're not wrong. Specifically, according to the leaks, Meera bitterly claims that the real Bran died in the cave. I think the leaker also said that Bran will be spaced out and distant in Season 7 (although I don't recall the exact way he described it).

Edited December 17, 2016 by Eyes High

[SeanC]

11 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

If I am not wrong, the leaks say that Meera thinks Bran is losing himself in his new role.... it will be interesting to contrast it with the warm and caring Bran of previous seasons .

Therefore it seems there will be character development with Bran too, if Meera is right, his change is big. 

A different issue is if people does not like the "new" Bran, but that is, like in so many other cases within the fandom, a matter of what fans wish for the characters.

That sort of character development strikes me, as much as anything, as facilitating the show marginalizing him.  A distant, emotionless Bran is kind of a plot device spouting knowledge whenever the show needs it (such as at the very end of the Littlefinger plot), with no need to address anything else.

[OhOkayWhat]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

You're not wrong. Specifically, according to the leaks, Meera bitterly claims that the real Bran died in the cave. I think the leaker also said that Bran will be spaced out and distant in Season 7 (although I don't recall the exact way he described it).

Thank you! And I wonder if we will see more of Meera in season 8...

 

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

That sort of character development strikes me, as much as anything, as facilitating the show marginalizing him.  A distant, emotionless Bran is kind of a plot device spouting knowledge whenever the show needs it (such as at the very end of the Littlefinger plot), with no need to address anything else.

And yet, it makes a lot of sense as a part of the big narrative. If it facilitates things or not, it is just the by-product of their narrative decision.

[whateverdgaf]

I'm actually ok with the idea of Meera leaving Bran. I like her a lot, but after everything she has been through protecting him, I can see how she may just want to call it a day and go home.

[Wouter]

18 hours ago, anamika said:

I think book Sansa will indeed be darker and more power hungry if we get the Sansa/LF combine against KITN Jon/Rickon. Or maybe there is no time for all that and by the time Sansa gets to be in charge of the Vale at the end of book 6 or book 7, the fight against the Others may have engulfed the 7K and she decides to help out instead of fight against her family.

The Sansa/Arya conflict we see next season could be some version of them resolving their differences in the books.

I don't think book-Sansa will become (much) darker. Her main conflict in the books, just like in the show, will be LF himself. And I'm quite convinced this will play out in the Vale, leaving the north to Stannis (still alive in the books!) and Jon.

5 hours ago, SeanC said:

That sort of character development strikes me, as much as anything, as facilitating the show marginalizing him.  A distant, emotionless Bran is kind of a plot device spouting knowledge whenever the show needs it (such as at the very end of the Littlefinger plot), with no need to address anything else.

In the last known book chapters, Meera is also getting more distant from Bran as he goes deeper and deeper into TreeNet(tm).

[anamika]

6 hours ago, Wouter said:

I don't think book-Sansa will become (much) darker. Her main conflict in the books, just like in the show, will be LF himself.

Book Sansa is already much darker. She betrays Ned to Cersei. She threatens the maester to give dangerously high levels of sweetsleep to SR so as to carry out LF's plans. Unlike Ramsay on the show, SR in the books is an innocent child who trusts Sansa and she is betraying that trust. She implicates Marillion for a crime he did not commit leading to his torture and execution.

She's not exactly the kind and compassionate character that her fans see her as. She's similar in some ways to the show version in that she's only looking out for no.1. She will not hesitate to throw other people under the bus as long as it leads to her survival. Which is a character flaw I like - a rather realistic, human flaw. If it was Sansa at the Queenscrown instead of Jon, she would have killed that old man.

I do think that Sansa will continue to willingly go along with LF's plans as she has been doing so far (and as we see in the TWoW sample chapter) and this will make her do some not so nice things. The consequences of which could open her eyes to the fact that doing LF's bidding is a bad deal and sets her to actively plan and work against him. It took Ned losing his head for her to wake up to the Lannisters and I foresee another similar event in the Vale. SR is not going to last long in the next book.

The show also seems to hinting that Sansa is a bit power hungry and not too pleased that Jon gets to be in charge this season. I am not sure if this is made up stuff for her like the last two seasons to give the character something to do or if it's based on something in the books.  If it's the latter, then by the end of TWoW, we will probably see Jon as KITN and Sansa married to Harry the Heir and revealed by LF as a Stark heir. Sansa/LF might not be too happy that bastard Jon is now in charge. The only problem I see with this scenario is that by the end of TWoW, I don't think that LF can move the Vale army North to attack Winterfell and there maybe no time for a Stark civil war.

12 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Someone took a picture of Joseph Mawle (Benjen), Iain Glen, and Kristofer Hivju together. They deleted it from their Instagram pretty quickly, though. This seems supportive of the 4chan kid's claim that Benjen is present during the big wight battle. If I remember correctly, according to the 4chan kid, Benjen shows up to save Jon and gives him his horse to help Jon escape (Benjen ex machina, hee). Jon flees, and Benjen is swarmed by wights. Maybe we can move Benjen from the question mark column to the death column.

It was awayforthelads who mentioned Benjen turning up to save Jon. I have not read any of the 4chan guy's spoilers so no idea if he said anything about him.

Has there been any Joe Dempsie sighting in Belfast? We saw him leave on the boat with Jon and Jorah and he is supposed to be part of the wight hunt according to spoilers.

Edited December 18, 2016 by anamika