Season 7: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[WearyTraveler]

Sansa is not my favourite character by far and I do get frustrated with her a lot in the books, but, to be fair, book Sansa does think fondly of Arya from time to time.  She even imagined naming one of future children with Willas after her sister.  I think fandom has made a lot about this supposed rivalry, and GRRM certainly fans the flames, but, in the books, it seems to me that they are heading toward a reunion where they will actually be happy to see each other again, not be at each other's throats.

[SeanC]

30 minutes ago, WearyTraveler said:

I think fandom has made a lot about this supposed rivalry, and GRRM certainly fans the flames, but, in the books, it seems to me that they are heading toward a reunion where they will actually be happy to see each other again, not be at each other's throats.

I think a reunion between them will be prickly (they've both had a rough go of it), but I think this is ultimately heading toward them reaching an understanding, which would, I guess, make them a reverse of Catelyn and Lysa (who were close as children, before Lysa went mad/evil as an adult).  The series (in both media) could use a prominent, positive sororal relationship.

[anamika]

3 hours ago, SeanC said:

We don't have any idea what their book stories are for this point, since the books aren't published, so I don't think it can be said we aren't getting it.  In Arya's case, it's quite plausible that this is some version of her eventual reunion with Sansa, which seems inevitable.

I'm not even really clear what Bran is doing all season.  Seemingly he's spending his time at the tree doing mystic stuff and providing a deus ex machina bit of knowledge.  But I don't think the writers have ever thought he was an interesting character.

Sansa has had fond recollections of Arya in the books (including, most recently, in her TWOW chapter).

I think I can say with a lot of certainty that Arya's story in the books will not have much to do with the Sansa-LF plot or Sansa herself. She may pass through the Vale in the books and settle her differences with Sansa (Maybe even try to warn Sansa about LF), but Arya's story is in the North with Jon, Bran, Nymeria, the Others and WF.  The only thing GRRM has to say about the Arya-Sansa relationship is that they have serious issues to settle among themselves. Oh, and that Sansa tattling to Cersei played a part in Arya not being able to escape to WF. Of course, whitewashed Sansa on the show never did all that. I expect to see sisterly love and bonding  instead of them hashing out their differences. In the books, however, their reunion is not going to be all moonlight and roses and I doubt Arya is going to have anything to do with bringing down LF.

It's true that Sansa has fond recollections from time to time of the sister she bullied and betrayed. On the other hand, Jon spends an entire book being worried and conflicted about Arya and ends up dying trying to save her. So while the show thinks it's important to highlight Sansa's 'fond recollections' of her sister, Jon does not get to even mention her name or ask after her. That's what I take issue with.

In the books, Jon is central to Arya's character. Not Sansa. I want Arya to reunite with her favorite brother, meet up with the Dragonstone crew (and Gendry!) and go wight hunting with them!! Not be stuck in the bland Sansa/LF plot where she will no doubt play second fiddle to Sansa like Jon did last season. But after season 6, I don't think the writers will do any justice to Arya's character and the leaks more or less confirm this. At least we get a mini Arya-Nymeria reunion  and probably Arya helping out her uncle in Riverrun in the first 3 episodes. That's something.

The show's avoidance of warging, direwolves and magic in general has hurt Bran's character the most. I think in the books, Jon and Bran will interact soon. They are the characters who have the most to do with the Others. We first see Jon through Bran's POV.  Bran is with Bloodraven who has connections to Jon and is an albino like Ghost. Bran has tried to contact Jon through his dreams and  tried to get Jon to warg. His companions are the Reeds who have some connections to the secret of Jon's parentage. I do think that in the books, Bran will have a role in Jon finding out who he is.  With the show removing the warging abilities of Jon and Arya, Bran's connections with those characters are also gone. And if the spoilers are true, Meera is gone by episode two. All of Bran's supporting characters are now gone.

As for Bran in the Sansa/LF plot? Poor Bran.

2 hours ago, WearyTraveler said:

GRRM certainly fans the flames, but, in the books, it seems to me that they are heading toward a reunion where they will actually be happy to see each other again, not be at each other's throats.

I don't think it will be all that happy. Theirs was not a normal sibling rivalry. Sansa sided with Joffrey against Arya (ignoring the fact that Joffrey tried to kill Arya), labelled Arya a traitor and made her life all that much harder by disclosing Ned's plans to get the girls out of KL to Cersei. She blamed Arya for what happened to Lady and even forgets to ask if Arya survived the KL massacre. As I mentioned above, as recently as ASoS, she finds Arya lacking as a sister and preferred the more lady like Margaery Tyrell. Sure, she thinks fondly of Arya a couple of times, but she also hardly ever introspects on how she treated her sister in KL. GRRM is certainly not intending for it to be a happy reunion. 

I also think that in the books, Sansa is being set up as that one Stark who is going go up against the rest. We got some hints of it in the show. With LF grooming Sansa to take over WF and Rickon/Jon/Bran in the North, I think we will see some version of a Stark civil war. If that happens I think we know which side Arya will take. We may get an Arya Vs Sansa meeting that way. After all, Sansa was created as a foil to Arya. Not for happy reunions. For happy (or sad) reunions, we have Jon. That's why GRRM has made it a point to constantly mention how much Jon and Arya love each other.

Edited November 2, 2016 by anamika

[Minneapple]

3 hours ago, anamika said:

Sansa is important to Arya's story in the books only in so far as they reconcile Sansa's shitty behavior towards Arya. As GRRM mentions they have serious issues to work out - hopefully that means Sansa realizing what an ass she was towards her little sister and not Sansa using Arya as her henchman to kill LF. As far as ASoS, Sansa was wishing that Margaery was her sister instead of Arya. To hell with Sansa. I want Arya to reunite with the characters that actually appreciate her and matter to her. Like Jon, who broke his NW vows for Arya and got killed because of it and Nymeria with whom she has a deep bond.

As for Sansa smiling about Arya on the show... it's the show. D and D's love for Sansa/Sophie Turner has ruined the plots and characterization of a few characters I do like. And of course, on the show,  Jon never gets to ask about the sister he dearly loves in the books and for whom he plans to attack Ramsay. Sansa gets to do all that. Yes, I am still bitter about the season 6 North plot. And it looks like we will be getting more of that next season, with Arya and Bran as side characters in the Sansa/LF story instead of getting their book stories.  I am glad that Jon gets to escape 'master player' Sansa's orbit, but it sucks that Arya has been pulled into it now. Characters like Jon, Bran and Arya are important characters in their own right and not there to be used as plot devices for frigging Sansa Stark's character development.  I am hoping that the leaks missed out on some details and there's more to Arya's story in season 7. At least it looks like she gets Riverrun back into Tully control.

I'm not getting into the whole "Sansa is the worst character ever full stop" argument because I've been down that road and I recognize that tree. But I think that Arya herself would put some importance, at least a little bit, on reuniting with Sansa. Even if you say "to hell with Sansa," I don't see Arya having a similar sentiment. I'm sure that even if it's not something she's thought about, she'd want to see her sister again. Especially after everything they've been through.

As for "It's the show"...well yes, it's the show, which is what we're discussing here. We don't have any book 6 or 7 stories yet, so we don't know what will happen. In fact we don't know what will happen on the show yet either.  

[armadillo1224]

Quote

It's true that Sansa has fond recollections from time to time of the sister she bullied and betrayed...In the books, Jon is central to Arya's character. Not Sansa

 

This is your personal feelings about the characters, not what is in the text. And more than a tad over-dramatic for a sibling rivalry between a nine-year old and an eleven-year old (after all they have been through they were parted, I'm pretty sure the two care a lot less than you do about preteen squabbles). It is pretty clear that Arya and Sansa are central figures in each other's stories, however you feel about this. I mean, Sansa was literally created to be Arya's foil. Of course they are central to each other's stories.

Edited November 2, 2016 by armadillo1224

[WearyTraveler]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

Sansa sided with Joffrey against Arya (ignoring the fact that Joffrey tried to kill Arya), labelled Arya a traitor and made her life all that much harder by disclosing Ned's plans to get the girls out of KL to Cersei. She blamed Arya for what happened to Lady and even forgets to ask if Arya survived the KL massacre. As I mentioned above, as recently as ASoS, she finds Arya lacking as a sister and preferred the more lady like Margaery Tyrell.

After Ned talked to Arya, she actually forgave her sister and tried to have a better relationship with Sansa. And she thinks fondly of Sansa way after she's gone from Westeros.  She doesn't dwell on the fact that Sansa sided with Joffrey, and she often thinks about reuniting with her family and seeing Sansa again.  Sansa also thinks kindly of her sister and doesn't dwell on the blood orange or other Arya transgressions, even more so as time goes by.  Neither sister reflects a lot about how they hurt the other one.  I think Arya fans are more offended at Sansa's actions that were detrimental to Arya than the character herself is at this point.

That said, I do think Arya is a lot more self-aware than Sansa by miles and miles, and a lot more perceptive when it comes to other people and their actions.  Honestly? I prefer Arya to Sansa, and I like her story in the books a lot better than Sansa's, but I don't think that the rivalry is as deep as some people think it is.

2 hours ago, SeanC said:

I think a reunion between them will be prickly (they've both had a rough go of it), but I think this is ultimately heading toward them reaching an understanding, which would, I guess, make them a reverse of Catelyn and Lysa (who were close as children, before Lysa went mad/evil as an adult).  The series (in both media) could use a prominent, positive sororal relationship.

I agree.  I didn't mean to imply that they would fall into an embrace and shed tears of joy when they saw each other :D .  Your description sounds about right.

[ElizaD]

16 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Yes, it looks like Viserion dies without having been ridden. There's no suggestion in the leaks that Tyrion will bond with a dragon in Season 7 (which sort of makes me wonder what the whole point of Tyrion's dragon scene in Season 6 was, other than to secure another Emmy nom for Peter Dinklage). It's clear that he's left behind when Jon heads out on his mission. Dany comes to Jon's rescue (supposedly), but as far as I can tell according to the leaks Tyrion stays south.

If the leaks are true, this is probably my choice for the most surprising thing about them. Some things I would never have predicted (Cersei getting pregnant again, no idea why since it leads to a miscarriage), others are expected but sound crazier and more entertaining than I would have guessed (Jon/Dany Wall sex). But Tyrion apparently not having anything big to do with the dragons feels like it goes against a decade of speculation, especially since he got the S6 scene that could have been the beginning of a plot that leads him to become a non-Targaryen rider. I'm still pleasantly stunned at the thought of what the Night's King getting Viserion will do to all the "three heads of the dragon" discussion. I'm absolutely certain that if Tyrion is not a dragonrider on the show he won't be one in the books either: the fates of minor players like the Tyrells might be different, but the showrunners love Tyrion (one of the top 5 most important characters and perhaps the most famous after Dany) and they would not change his story to remove something as epic and central to the reputation and power he'll have in Westeros as dragonriding would be.

While it's still possible that Bran wargs undead Viserion in Season 8 or Tyrion gets to be a dragon's second rider after the first dies in battle or something like that, right now I really feel that this is heading for Jon+Dany as the two dragonriders and married rulers living happily ever after. If one of them dies I'd say it's Dany since killing Jon twice would be a waste, but if Jon is legitimate and season 7 gives them a romance when there's no other possible queen left (with little Sansa and no Arya interaction ruling them out), that really feels like setup for a marriage that unites their claims in season 8.

[Happy Harpy]

13 hours ago, anamika said:

So far, I don't have much of a problem with the season 7 plots except for the Winterfell plot - which sounds bland, boring and LF's end feels rather anti-climatic. Maybe Maisie was just excited about filming with Sophie and Arya getting to kill LF.  And poor Bran! There were some leaks about him controlling some ravens etc. Not sure if that's true. Anyways, I hope that he too as more to do other than being exposition man and a side character in  Sansa's LF plot.

I share your concerns since I wasn't a fan of the way Jon was used to prop Sansa (jmho, MMV etc.) at times last season, and I wouldn't like Arya (or Bran) to get the same treatment, but for now I'm going to stay optimistic. I was dreading the Dothraki plot for S6, I was afraid that Dany would be victimized/molested/humiliated for several episodes and pretty much the opposite happened.

I can spin a positive twist. I imagine LF barely able to hide he's extatic that Jon is gone and 100% certain he has free reins. He might advocate Sansa's legitimacy, he might use disgruntled desires for revenge against the Karstarks/Umbers in order to sway the Northern lords in her favor...only to find not one but two other legitimate Starks coming home. One has a better claim than Sansa as the eldest surviving male. Another single-handedly avenged the Red Wedding on the Frey side, which should give her major clout.  Yes, Manderly lost his son at the RW  but now I think it was no coincidence that he mentioned Jon avenging it in the finale.  Moreover, one is a Warg and another a Faceless woman, meaning that it should be quite difficult to bullshit them for long, if at all. 

If the WF plot is about LF's schemes falling apart one after the other courtesy of the Starks, and LF losing his marbles before he gets the Meryn Trant treatment, I'm going to lurve it. Oh, the pay-off. I hope I'll see Lyanna Mormont verbally bitchslap him at some point.

Of course, the good guys won't have it as easy. I think that being on top again, Sansa might be tempted to revert to her old ways. LF might indeed be able to temporarily use Sansa's ambition and Arya's distrust against the sisters. I don't think it will last, though, if only because shortened season. And with KL/Beyond the Wall seemingly getting lots of heavy stuff (Yara, Olenna, Theon, wight expedition, huge battles etc.) WF might be a bit lighter on the show's scale. It could also create a sense of relative and false security in the unspoiled/casual viewers' minds until hell literally breaks loose along with the Wall.

At worst, I'll take whatever Arya/Brienne I can get as the equivalent of Jaime/Bronn in Dorne...although I didn't hate Dorne as much as many it seems. And the possibility of Arya/Meera/Brienne/Lyanna M possibly sharing screentime makes me about as happy as Gendry's return (don't kill him off!).

Edited November 2, 2016 by Happy Harpy

[Eyes High]

14 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

I think it goes beyond the screentime problem. They even can use just a couple of episodes within season 8 to create their love story, the real problem is that it is very possible the showrunners does not see Sandor as the "Beast" from a hypothetical "Beauty and the Beast" tale at all.

With his dialogue with Thoros and Beric in season 3 and season 6 and if the leaks are true and he goes to the "Wight mission" (and also he does not go to Winterfell before going to Eastwatch), it looks like they, even since Season 3, see him as "Sandor: Protector of Humankind" and not like "Sandor, the Sansa protector". It fits better with their interest on Arya-Sandor instead Sansa-Sandor.

That's possible, of course, but given all the subtext, foreshadowing, etc. in the books, distinguishing SanSan from crackships like Jon/Sansa, I don't think we can truly write off SanSan until one of them is in the ground, and all indications are that the Hound and Sansa survive Season 7.

12 hours ago, SeanC said:

Viserion's supposed death would also be a blow to people hoping to see Tyrion ride a dragon.  I have a hard time imagining the showrunners cutting that if it's supposed to happen in the books, but then, quite a lot of stuff to do with the dragons has been different.

Yes. I would be really surprised about no dragon for Tyrion in the show, because I would be surprised if it didn't happen in the books and just as surprised if it happened in the books and D&D decided to omit it in the show. Like hell D&D would pass up having Tyrion ride a dragon.

If the leaks are true, the Hound gets the chance to ride a dragon (as cargo instead of as a rider, but still) before Tyrion. That's just weird.

2 hours ago, ElizaD said:

If the leaks are true, this is probably my choice for the most surprising thing about them. Some things I would never have predicted (Cersei getting pregnant again, no idea why since it leads to a miscarriage), others are expected but sound crazier and more entertaining than I would have guessed (Jon/Dany Wall sex). But Tyrion apparently not having anything big to do with the dragons feels like it goes against a decade of speculation, especially since he got the S6 scene that could have been the beginning of a plot that leads him to become a non-Targaryen rider.

Absolutely agreed.

Quote

While it's still possible that Bran wargs undead Viserion in Season 8 or Tyrion gets to be a dragon's second rider after the first dies in battle or something like that, right now I really feel that this is heading for Jon+Dany as the two dragonriders and married rulers living happily ever after.

If GRRM sticks to his old intention for the main five to survive, at this point with these spoilers it's hard to imagine any other outcome than Prom King and Queen of Westeros.

Quote

I share your concerns since I wasn't a fan of the way Jon was used to prop Sansa (jmho, MMV etc.) at times last season

The leaker thought Sansa was coming across as vindictive in the 7x01 scene with the Umber and Karstark heirs, I suppose to make Jon's magnanimity all the more apparent, so maybe this season Sansa will be used to prop Jon.

Edited November 2, 2016 by Eyes High

[SeanC]

16 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

If the WF plot is about LF's schemes falling apart one after the other courtesy of the Starks, and LF losing his marbles before he gets the Meryn Trant treatment, I'm going to lurve it. 

From both the way the plot was described by the leaker, and the way the show typically handles villains (e.g., Ramsay last year), the show isn't going to have Littlefinger going through extended loss of power.  He's basically going to come across as winning right until he loses.

[Happy Harpy]

2 minutes ago, SeanC said:

From both the way the plot was described by the leaker, and the way the show typically handles villains (e.g., Ramsay last year), the show isn't going to have Littlefinger going through extended loss of power.  He's basically going to come across as winning right until he loses.

Too bad! Then I'll put on my pink glasses and hope the leaker knows less about WF than about the other plotlines, or that it'll turn out right onscreen.

[Eyes High]

I thought Grey Worm was at the dragonpit, but he's not in the list of confirmed characters at the dragonpit provided by WOTW (although WOTW said there "may be more to come" than the 17 characters confirmed to appear). A poster at Reddit said that Grey Worm didn't appear in any of the Shakman-directed (7x04, 7x05) scene filming leaks.

Does Grey Worm die in the ambush?

[SeanC]

2 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Does Grey Worm die in the ambush?

Of Dany's entourage, he's certainly the one with the highest chance of being fodder (being, among other things, a combatant, and the only non-regular among them).

[Eyes High]

1 minute ago, SeanC said:

Of Dany's entourage, he's certainly the one with the highest chance of being fodder (being, among other things, a combatant, and the only non-regular among them).

Grey Worm would probably also insist on going on the wight-hunting mission along with Jorah, one would imagine, and yet he's not there.

Named character death list for Season 7, revised and roughly in order:

Obara/Nym, Ellaria/Tyene, Yara, Olenna, Grey Worm, Thoros, Littlefinger (not sure about Beric)

[anamika]

9 hours ago, Minneapple said:

I'm not getting into the whole "Sansa is the worst character ever full stop" argument because I've been down that road and I recognize that tree. But I think that Arya herself would put some importance, at least a little bit, on reuniting with Sansa. Even if you say "to hell with Sansa," I don't see Arya having a similar sentiment. I'm sure that even if it's not something she's thought about, she'd want to see her sister again. Especially after everything they've been through.

As for "It's the show"...well yes, it's the show, which is what we're discussing here. We don't have any book 6 or 7 stories yet, so we don't know what will happen. In fact we don't know what will happen on the show yet either.  

Who said anything about 'Sansa being the worst character ever full stop'? I said Sansa was a terribly shitty sister to Arya. If that makes Sansa the 'worst character ever full stop' according to you, then so be it. Arya may put some importance on seeing Sansa again, but I am saying that in the books her most important relationships are with Jon and Nymeria, something that has been ignored on the show.  I put a reunion with Sansa way down on my list of things I want to see Arya do.

And yes, we are discussing the show in a 'Book Talk spoilers and speculation' thread and hence my complaining about the show ignoring plots and characters that are important to Arya's character in the books.  We may not know the book 6 or 7 stories yet, but I am fairly certain that it's not Arya getting manipulated by LF and taking orders from Sansa to execute LF.

9 hours ago, WearyTraveler said:

After Ned talked to Arya, she actually forgave her sister and tried to have a better relationship with Sansa. And she thinks fondly of Sansa way after she's gone from Westeros.  She doesn't dwell on the fact that Sansa sided with Joffrey, and she often thinks about reuniting with her family and seeing Sansa again.  Sansa also thinks kindly of her sister and doesn't dwell on the blood orange or other Arya transgressions, even more so as time goes by.  Neither sister reflects a lot about how they hurt the other one.  I think Arya fans are more offended at Sansa's actions that were detrimental to Arya than the character herself is at this point.

GRRM himself has said that the sisters have serious issues to work out.  I don't think the actions of the sisters are comparable at all. Arya's transgressions amounted to throwing an orange at her sister. For which she then tried to make up. Sansa's actions against her sister are of a far more serious nature and had more disastrous consequences. The show never had Sansa telling Ned's plans to Cersei, but if (according to the leaks) LF is using the letter Sansa wrote to Robb to manipulate Arya, maybe they are now referencing Sansa's ignominious behavior during that time.

4 hours ago, ElizaD said:

But Tyrion apparently not having anything big to do with the dragons feels like it goes against a decade of speculation, especially since he got the S6 scene that could have been the beginning of a plot that leads him to become a non-Targaryen rider.

Tyrion being a dragon rider never made any sense to me. Tyrion is the thinker, the politician, player of games. He is exactly where I envisioned him to be - Hand of the Queen (Or King).  I do see Bran warging a dragon at some point and of course Drogon is Dany's.

Edited November 2, 2016 by anamika

[Wouter]

13 hours ago, SeanC said:

Viserion's supposed death would also be a blow to people hoping to see Tyrion ride a dragon.  I have a hard time imagining the showrunners cutting that if it's supposed to happen in the books, but then, quite a lot of stuff to do with the dragons has been different.

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

Yes. I would be really surprised about no dragon for Tyrion in the show, because I would be surprised if it didn't happen in the books and just as surprised if it happened in the books and D&D decided to omit it in the show. Like hell D&D would pass up having Tyrion ride a dragon.

If the leaks are true, the Hound gets the chance to ride a dragon (as cargo instead of as a rider, but still) before Tyrion. That's just weird.

I wonder if CGI costs could play a role in the apparent decision not to let Tyrion ride a dragon (yet?), if that indeed would happen in the books (but IMO, the hints are there in the published materials and sample chapters)? We know the Direwolves got short-changed on the show because creating convincing effects for them is difficult/expensive. Creating a CGI-dragon is comparatively easy, but having a human on their back may be much more difficult (and thus expensive) to do well. Dany may take all the budget in this department. 

As a difference between books and show, it would be similar to Bran being the only Warg in the show.

The strange thing remains that the show went out of its way to have Tyrion interact with the two chained up dragons, but didn't follow up on that. I don't know why that scene was included (Dany could have freed them herself after her return, or the unsullied could have done it off-camera) unless they wanted to stress a connection between Tyrion and dragons - much like the books have been doing.

 

10 hours ago, anamika said:

I think I can say with a lot of certainty that Arya's story in the books will not have much to do with the Sansa-LF plot or Sansa herself. She may pass through the Vale in the books and settle her differences with Sansa (Maybe even try to warn Sansa about LF), but Arya's story is in the North with Jon, Bran, Nymeria, the Others and WF. 

I think we have no way to be that certain about scenes that are probably not even written yet, and maybe never will. Arya and Sansa working together against LF has always struck me as a potential book storyline (in the Vale context); it would fit into them "settling their differences" while nailing the true murderer of their father. Moreover, Arya's skill set as a silent assassin is far more useful in a political, southern context than in the war against the Others. It is also complementary with Sansa's supposed skill as a "player" of sorts.

 

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

If GRRM sticks to his old intention for the main five to survive, at this point with these spoilers it's hard to imagine any other outcome than Prom King and Queen of Westeros.

I don't know if the old outline made the claim that the main five will survive to the very end? IIRC he did say they would be there throughout the tale, but that doesn't mean they can't die in the final climax. I wouldn't be surprised it at least one of Dany and Jon doesn't survive the war against the WW.

[SeanC]

6 minutes ago, Wouter said:

I don't know if the old outline made the claim that the main five will survive to the very end? IIRC he did say they would be there throughout the tale, but that doesn't mean they can't die in the final climax.

The exact meaning of that wording has been debated.  I think it can be read either way (though if it does indicate that they live all the way through, it's weird that the people in the office didn't black it out like they did with the penultimate paragraph of the letter).

[GrailKing]

Wow! people hating on Sansa because Arya is in her story line, people, they were always in each other's story line.

Their foils of the other's life, yet they show fond memories of each other, we've been hit over and over with the pack survives and the lone wolf dies, I am pretty sure GRRM always planned on them working together once they understand their differences.

Sansa acted no more differently to Arya as any older sibling does to a younger one, and Ned feeding Arya's ways just added to it.

In book Sansa absolutely back Arya up to her father, but as they put in the show version ( eliminated Sansa and Ned's talk) Sansa was put in a bad position by Arya and Joffry hence her lie to the King.

If what happened in their childhood actually tore them apart then we have many millions of broken families in real life, it's simple sibling angst.

Those two girls together would be so much a power couple, if they come to terms with each other.

Hopefully not ending up like Lysa and Cat.

[SeanC]

Just now, GrailKing said:

Sansa acted no more differently to Arya as any older sibling does to a younger one, and Ned feeding Arya's ways just added to it.

That's going a bit far.  Sansa (moreso in the books) was definitely a bully at times (even if some of it was misinterpreted, and a lot of it is a result of social factors; Septa Mordane, and really, society at large, told them that Sansa was better than Arya, and both girls believed it, which is not a recipe for a healthy relationship).

[GrailKing]

7 minutes ago, SeanC said:

That's going a bit far.  Sansa (moreso in the books) was definitely a bully at times (even if some of it was misinterpreted, and a lot of it is a result of social factors; Septa Mordane, and really, society at large, told them that Sansa was better than Arya, and both girls believed it, which is not a recipe for a healthy relationship).

Eh maybe, a bit, I'll just say : Ned , Cat and Septa Mordane failed both those girls, but my feeling of basic family squabble stands as far as I see it.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, Wouter said:

I think we have no way to be that certain about scenes that are probably not even written yet, and maybe never will. Arya and Sansa working together against LF has always struck me as a potential book storyline (in the Vale context); it would fit into them "settling their differences" while nailing the true murderer of their father. Moreover, Arya's skill set as a silent assassin is far more useful in a political, southern context than in the war against the Others. It is also complementary with Sansa's supposed skill as a "player" of sorts.

I don't know if the old outline made the claim that the main five will survive to the very end? IIRC he did say they would be there throughout the tale, but that doesn't mean they can't die in the final climax. I wouldn't be surprised it at least one of Dany and Jon doesn't survive the war against the WW.

I don't object to the idea of Arya and Sansa working their shit out. This whole "LF targets Arya because he knows she can't be manipulated, so he uses Robb's letter to manipulate her" business sounds pretty sketchy, though.

49 minutes ago, SeanC said:

The exact meaning of that wording has been debated.  I think it can be read either way (though if it does indicate that they live all the way through, it's weird that the people in the office didn't black it out like they did with the penultimate paragraph of the letter).

Well, the outline spoiled the identity of Jon's mother ("their passion will torment them until the secret of Jon's parentage is revealed in the third book"), something they didn't black out, either, so I wouldn't put any stock in that.

The exact words were as follows, and I think context is important:

"...The cast will not always remain the same. Old characters will die, and new ones will be introduced. Some of the fatalities will include sympathetic viewpoint characters. I want the reader to feel that no one is ever completely safe, not even the characters who seem to be the heroes. The suspense always ratchets up a notch when you know that any character can die at any time.

"Five characters will make it through all three volumes, however, growing from children to adults and changing the world and themselves in the process. In a sense, my trilogy is almost a generational saga, telling the life stories of these characters, three men and two women."

In context, he seems to be saying that the main five are safe, since this "however" statement follows on the heels of his statement that any character can die at any time. Furthermore, he goes on to characterize the trilogy as a bit of a coming of age tale for those five.

Moreover, GRRM has said, over and over (and over) again, that he intends to stick with the ending for the main characters he came up with in 1991. He wrote the outline in 1993.

Quote

Sansa (moreso in the books) was definitely a bully at times

She also let her BFF Jeyne bully Arya on an ongoing basis--calling Arya Horseface and neighing whenever Arya was around--without putting a stop to it, something she easily could have done. Some fans try to play down Sansa's bullying of Arya as normal sibling bullshit (or, as GrailKing put it, "basic family squabble"). It wasn't.

To be fair, the TV show played down the bullying aspect, but I wouldn't be surprised if we learned in Season 7 about some sort of past bullying just like we learned about Sansa supposedly not having a great relationship with Jon as a child in Season 6.

Edited November 2, 2016 by Eyes High

[Wouter]

5 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I don't object to the idea of Arya and Sansa working their shit out. This whole "LF targets Arya because he knows she can't be manipulated, so he uses Robb's letter to manipulate her" business sounds pretty sketchy, though.

 

It's an outline, provided by a leaker who got some details wrong (at least initially). It may sound much better when it's on the screen (allthough with D&D, no guarantees). It's not that unreasonable to say: "Arya is harder to manipulate, and more dangerous to me than others when she does realise I'm her enemy, so I'll make her my priority and find a weak spot to target".

[Minneapple]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

Who said anything about 'Sansa being the worst character ever full stop'? I said Sansa was a terribly shitty sister to Arya. If that makes Sansa the 'worst character ever full stop' according to you, then so be it. Arya may put some importance on seeing Sansa again, but I am saying that in the books her most important relationships are with Jon and Nymeria, something that has been ignored on the show.  I put a reunion with Sansa way down on my list of things I want to see Arya do.

And yes, we are discussing the show in a 'Book Talk spoilers and speculation' thread and hence my complaining about the show ignoring plots and characters that are important to Arya's character in the books.  We may not know the book 6 or 7 stories yet, but I am fairly certain that it's not Arya getting manipulated by LF and taking orders from Sansa to execute LF.

You said Sansa is a shitty sister, you call her storyline boring, you want your faves away from her...not such a leap to "worst character ever." Which fine, I don't care. 

Yes, the show has ignored some plots in Arya's story. It has done that to every character, usually to the disservice of that character. They are bringing Gendry back so not all of her characters are being ignored.

You put a Sansa/Arya reunion low on your list, I put it high on my list. *Shrug* We disagree. It happens.

[SeanC]

20 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Moreover, GRRM has said, over and over (and over) again, that he intends to stick with the ending for the main characters he came up with in 1991. He wrote the outline in 1993.

If the latest spoilers are true, I don't know how literally one can take that, since the outline posits a Jon/Arya romance, and the show is doing Jon/Dany.  Unless the original outline was heading toward a Jon/Dany/Arya threesome, akin to Aegon/Visenya/Rhaenys, but even then that would be a significant change for Arya's character (though, of the original five main characters, Arya is the one whose story, apart from her starting point, is virtually unrecognizable).

Quote

I don't object to the idea of Arya and Sansa working their shit out. This whole "LF targets Arya because he knows she can't be manipulated, so he uses Robb's letter to manipulate her" business sounds pretty sketchy, though.

I've already concurred on that point.  If that's really the hinge on which Littlefinger falls, and at which Sansa and Arya nearly come to blows, it's pretty weak tea.  But that's far from unheard of with the plotting for this show.

Edited November 2, 2016 by SeanC

[Eyes High]

38 minutes ago, SeanC said:

If the latest spoilers are true, I don't know how literally one can take that, since the outline posits a Jon/Arya romance, and the show is doing Jon/Dany.  Unless the original outline was heading toward a Jon/Dany/Arya threesome, akin to Aegon/Visenya/Rhaenys, but even then that would be a significant change for Arya's character (though, of the original five main characters, Arya is the one whose story, apart from her starting point, is virtually unrecognizable).

If all five are going to survive in the books and the show posits a Jon/Dany romance, then yeah, I don't know how that squares with what seemed to be shaping up to be a Jon/Arya endgame in the outline. I'm still not sure what GRRM intends to do with Dany, though, so I guess we'll see.

As for a Jon/Dany/Arya threesome a la Aegon/Visenya/Rhaenys, I could see Dany being cool with such an arrangement (particularly if she remains infertile), but Jon and Arya?

Assuming there is going to be an endgame ruler or rulers on the Iron Throne--and GRRM has said as much--and assuming it's going to be Jon, Dany or both of them--also probably a fair assumption at this point--who's going to be the Hand? Davos seems to be Jon's de facto Hand. Tyrion is Dany's. They both survive Season 7 from what I can tell. If they both survive Season 8, and Jon and Dany wind up holding the throne together, I wonder who will end up with the job.

Quote

I've already concurred on that point.  If that's really the hinge on which Littlefinger falls, and at which Sansa and Arya nearly come to blows, it's pretty weak tea.  But that's far from unheard of with the plotting for this show.

It would be pretty funny if super serious, somber scenes where Jon and Dany are discussing the possibility of Westeros being destroyed by the WWs were intercut with Winterfell scenes of Sansa and Arya trading insults while Littlefinger rubs his fingers together in Mr. Burns-like glee.

Edited November 2, 2016 by Eyes High

[ElizaD]

Tyrion is the bigger character so I expect he'll be Hand, I just hope Davos survives and gets a good title, Master of Ships perhaps. If I got to choose, I'd be happiest with Davos as Hand and Tyrion going home to enjoy being Lord of the Rock.

If Jon doesn't meet Arya or even find about his parentage this season, I don't think six episodes in Season 8 will be enough to build a romance or a threesome deal for them. I believe Jon and Dany will get the romance and sex this season, the parentage reveal and marriage in 8. It'll be a little like the outline, but in this case the incest angle comes after the reveal instead of being resolved by it.

[feefee]

https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/5ar373/lena_headey_still_not_in_sevillecersei_dies_early/

it seems like the leaker wrong about something after all

[SeanC]

24 minutes ago, feefee said:

https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/5ar373/lena_headey_still_not_in_sevillecersei_dies_early/

it seems like the leaker wrong about something after all

There are three days of filming there remaining.  Depending on how the shoot is done, they may have scheduled things to minimize Lena's shooting time.

[feefee]

10 minutes ago, SeanC said:

There are three days of filming there remaining.  Depending on how the shoot is done, they may have scheduled things to minimize Lena's shooting time.

maybe, but according to the leaks. it seems like cersei is major part of the dragonpit scene so you would think they would need her for all the days. it would be one thing if the leaker was wrong about pod being their or something and completely another thing with the leaker being wrong about lena being there

if lena doesn't show up in seville ASAP, then it seems like the dragonpit scene may be something different than a wight circus after all

[SeanC]

Just now, feefee said:

maybe, but according to the leaks. it seems like cersei is major part of the dragonpit scene so you would think they would need her for all the days.

Big scenes aren't necessarily filmed like that.  If the groups are segregated in a wide-open space, most of the shots can be done with smaller groups, and then you get a few wide shots at different points.  Cersei may arrive later than some of her entourage, as well.

It's certainly unusual that Lena's seemingly not there already, but one cannot immediately conclude that she's not in the scene at all.

[feefee]

4 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Big scenes aren't necessarily filmed like that.  If the groups are segregated in a wide-open space, most of the shots can be done with smaller groups, and then you get a few wide shots at different points.  Cersei may arrive later than some of her entourage, as well.

It's certainly unusual that Lena's seemingly not there already, but one cannot immediately conclude that she's not in the scene at all.

i guess we'll just have to wait and see. but i think this is the first hope that not all of the leaks were true. if lena doesn't show up in 3 days then that means the leaker could have been completely wrong about the dragonpit scene as well as the other cersei stuff (like her being pregnant) and potentially some of the other leaks too. but it seems like cersei's scenes in the dragonpit are mostly with jon and dany. so lena not being there at the same time as emilia and kit is very suspect

Edited November 2, 2016 by feefee

[blixie]

Quote

I wonder who will end up with the job.

I want it to be Davos, because  I want him ALIVE at the end, and well situated, but when I think of what Davos himself would want? I know that's not it, he wants to be home with Marya and what is left of his family, I don't think he feels sworn to Jon the way he felt so indebted and absolutely loyal to Stannis, but maybe that will change after everything they go through and everything he sees Jon/Dany to be (aka better rulers purely than Stannis ever could have been).  So I can see Tyrion being Hand while perhaps Davos is on the council in some other role, and is able to bring his family to Kings Landing, and give his sons the high born futures he wanted for them. But Davos deserves it more because I think he's just generally a better council and has never been a creepy little rapist whiner. 

[Eyes High]

2 hours ago, feefee said:

https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/5ar373/lena_headey_still_not_in_sevillecersei_dies_early/

it seems like the leaker wrong about something after all

Nope. Lena was just spotted in Sevilla.

I'm wondering if Davos is the endgame Hand because Liam Cunningham said a while back that GRRM had told him a "secret" about Davos in TWOW, and Liam seemed very pleased about knowing. Now, granted, Davos probably isn't going to be appointed as Jon's Hand in TWOW, but I'm guessing it's something about Davos that Liam seemed very excited and happy about knowing, and being Hand to the endgame king would fit the bill.

Tyrion ending up as Hand or as Lord of Casterly Rock seems kind of pat, but then, so does the outcome of Jon and Dany ruling Westeros together.

Edited November 2, 2016 by Eyes High

[SeanC]

5 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Nope. Lena was just spotted in Sevilla.

The leaker keeps on winning.

Though really, of all the things he might have been wrong about, it would seem least likely that he'd be wrong on a subject (actors in Spain) about which he undeniably has actual information (other than forgetting that Brienne was going, but it seems like his grasp on lower-tier characters isn't as strong; though it seems like Brienne does spend most of the season at Winterfell, so perhaps it's easier to understand why he omitted it initially).

[Eyes High]

3 minutes ago, SeanC said:

The leaker keeps on winning.

Though really, of all the things he might have been wrong about, it would seem least likely that he'd be wrong on a subject (actors in Spain) about which he undeniably has actual information (other than forgetting that Brienne was going, but it seems like his grasp on lower-tier characters isn't as strong; though it seems like Brienne does spend most of the season at Winterfell, so perhaps it's easier to understand why he omitted it initially).

The leaker seems to be a lot shakier when it comes to minor characters (he didn't say anything about Grey Worm dying, if indeed that does happen), but he seems to have the details of the main characters in the southern storyline dead on.

I think that we can also take the absence of the Dornish characters, Olenna and Yara from this otherwise pretty exhaustive list of characters at the dragonpit as confirmation that they have died, probably pretty early on in the season as the leaker claimed.

[OhOkayWhat]

7 hours ago, Eyes High said:

That's possible, of course, but given all the subtext, foreshadowing, etc. in the books, distinguishing SanSan from crackships like Jon/Sansa, I don't think we can truly write off SanSan until one of them is in the ground, and all indications are that the Hound and Sansa survive Season 7.

I really do not like to use the word "crackship", it sounds, at least to me, like part of ship-drama or ship-wars discussions. I will use "likely ship" and "unlikely ship" in this reply.

You also mention the word "distinguishing", and it is interesting because if we use a rule to distinguish likely ships from unlikely ones, which rule is it?

I think with likely ships we have abundance of scenes and those scenes are connected to each other in an organic romantic narrative within the book/movie/show etc. The unlikely ones only have "hints" and "clues" and maybe they are not even actually hints and clues of anything, because there is not an organic narrative that includes them.

The interesting thing is that if we apply that rule to Sansan in the show, we need to conclude that Sansan is part of the unlikely ships group.

Now, let say that hypothetically the books have Sansan as a real ship. If that is the case, it seems this ship is more or less inconsequential in the endgame if we look at the narrative as a whole. This is a different case with, lets say, Jon marriage, that hypothetically could have huge effects in the whole Realm.

Therefore, even if the books include Sansan endgame (obviously it is not confirmed) it is possible the showrunners will not include it because there is not narrative needs that compels them to do it. And maybe that is the reason they never created a romantic narrative for Sansan in the show. Besides, of course, the huge age problem.

Even the casting, as @feverfew correctly mentions, is a big clue about what D and D wants.

And yet, perhaps it still is possible in the show, as I said in my previous comment, maybe they use two episodes in the season 8 to do it. Maybe not. In any case, I like most of the showrunners decisions about Sandor and how they removed the Beauty and Beast romance from his storyline, to create, instead, their own version of a very interesting character in the show.

[OhOkayWhat]

By the way, I am glad it seems the whole Big Parlay scene (and the Wight mission) is true. It is a very clever and surprising way to finally tie the Game of Thrones theme and the Long Night Apocalypse theme in the show. Lots of people seemed convinced after the last episode of Season 6 that most of the next season could include:

-Jon storyline with Jon mostly dealing with North politics while Petyr plotted in the shadows. No big action-Jon scene beyond the Wall.

-Dany Conquest War. With or without battles lost, Dany final victory guaranteed.

But the leaks seems to show a different story. And a very logical, interesting and unexpected one about those two issues.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, OhOkayWhat said:

I really do not like to use the word "crackship", it sounds, at least to me, like part of ship-drama or ship-wars discussions. I will use "likely ship" and "unlikely ship" in this reply.

You also mention the word "distinguishing", and it is interesting because if we use a rule to distinguish likely ships from unlikely ones, which rule is it?

I think with likely ships we have abundance of scenes and those scenes are connected to each other in an organic romantic narrative within the book/movie/show etc. The unlikely ones only have "hints" and "clues" and maybe they are not even actually hints and clues of anything, because there is not an organic narrative that includes them.

The interesting thing is that if we apply that rule to Sansan in the show, we need to conclude that Sansan is part of the unlikely ships group.

When Sansa has a dream about Jon in bed with her, compares other men to Jon, and starts having increasingly detailed fantasies about having kissed Jon, and when GRRM says "there's something there" with Jon and Sansa, then we can call it a thing. Until then...crackship. I'm not going to list all the SanSan stuff in the show, including among other things a deleted Season 2 scene that seemed to have only been written in the first place to build in SanSan interaction, because a lot of people have done that already, but it's there, even if it's more toned down on the show for reasons that may have nothing to do with a decision to cut a relationship from the show.

I think people run into trouble when they start reading things into choices the show has made and jump to the conclusion that because they did or didn't do something, that this ship will or won't happen in the show. That way lies looking really, really dumb down the line. Look at all the JonxSansa fans who loudly insisted their ship must be endgame because there could be no other possible reason for Sansa and Jon's storylines being combined in Season 6. They must be feeling like a bunch of nitwits right now, and rightly so. 

Similarly, when it comes to SanSan, I think it's dangerous to look at the writers downplaying the ship in Season 2, focusing on Sandor's relationship with Arya and not Sansa's, or casting someone much older than Sophie to play Sandor, and jump to the conclusion that it was done only because they've decided not to do TV SanSan and for no other reason. The writers also have a habit of conveniently forgetting about plot points until they want to reintroduce them. Brienne said not one word about Jaime when they were separated, but once they were reunited it was all tortured gazes.

Quote

 

Now, let say that hypothetically the books have Sansan as a real ship. If that is the case, it seems this ship is more or less inconsequential in the endgame if we look at the narrative as a whole. This is a different case with, lets say, Jon marriage, that hypothetically could have huge effects in the whole Realm.

Therefore, even if the books include Sansan endgame (obviously it is not confirmed) it is possible the showrunners will not include it because there is not narrative needs that compels them to do it. And maybe that is the reason they never created a romantic narrative for Sansan in the show. Besides, of course, the huge age problem.

 

I agree that D&D may have decided to dispense with SanSan because they didn't consider it important enough, but not only do I think it's way too early to make that determination, I also find it difficult to believe that they wouldn't incorporate the ASOIAF romantic endgames of the main characters into the show. Everyone else, sure, but the Starks plus Dany and Tyrion? No way. They'll end up with whomever they end up with in the books. With that said, if Book SanSan has some sort of tragic romance narrative, like he sacrifices himself for her or something, I could see D&D bypassing it because they're running out of time and it's not an endgame pairing.

With all that said, it's way too early to say that "they never created a romantic narrative for SanSan" in the show. Sandor pretty clearly had romantic interest in Sansa in the show, even if it has yet to be reciprocated as far as we know. As for the "huge age problem," they didn't consider it a problem with LF and Sansa, so I doubt it will be an issue.

[Happy Harpy]

[whines] Where are my spoilers ?! [whines] Can't someone sic twenty good men on security ? (And by this I mean "distract them nicely, with GoT beer or beeewbs or aaabs something").  I'm so never going to make it until summer without my daily dose.

Leaks are diamonds in the rough. The bright and shiny will come from context...well, except for people dying because fuck context then, to paraphrase a chicken lover.

Hey, it just hit me. "I prefer chicken". Chicken = bird = little bird = SanSan is coming! (Friendly kidding, I'm an unapologetic shipper myself).

I'm worried about the lack of Grey Worm.

Is the Dragonpit scene truly going to end without violence? When I read the list of the characters present there, I have flashbacks of Lancel watching the candles burning on the wildfire.

[anamika]

4 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

[whines] Where are my spoilers ?! [whines] Can't someone sic twenty good men on security ? (And by this I mean "distract them nicely, with GoT beer or beeewbs or aaabs something").  I'm so never going to make it until summer without my daily dose.

I am sort of okay with not knowing everything. We know most of the Dragonstone story right now. Allows us to make wild speculations about everything else!

How Lyanna kidnapped Rhaegar: Maybe this will be Dany's version of the whole Lyanna-Rhaegar story!

Source: http://m.pikabu.ru/story/lianna_stark_i_reygar_targarien_4317038

Edited November 3, 2016 by anamika

[SeanC]

It seems like production in Belfast has basically stopped while the Spanish filming is happening.

[OhOkayWhat]

16 hours ago, Eyes High said:

....including among other things a deleted Season 2 scene that seemed to have only been written in the first place to build in SanSan interaction....

Maybe that is not the only reason they wrote it. Maybe it existed to show the different attitudes of Tyrion and Sandor towards Sansa. And Sandor attitude does not look good at all.

 

16 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I think people run into trouble when they start reading things into choices the show has made and jump to the conclusion that because they did or didn't do something, that this ship will or won't happen in the show. That way lies looking really, really dumb down the line. Look at all the JonxSansa fans who loudly insisted their ship must be endgame because there could be no other possible reason for Sansa and Jon's storylines being combined in Season 6

As I have said before, yes, romantic Sansan is still possible. In other words, I agree with you that we cannot say with certainty that there will not be romantic Sansan as endgame in the show.

But what I do is to try to analyze the probabilities of it being true. And to me, it seems that even if it is not impossible, it is an unlikely ship. How do I determine this? Analyzing what I see on screen and the related data at hand.

A good example of this point here: I never said romantic Jon/Sansa was a likely ship in the show. Why? because, among other issues with that couple, there is not enough on screen material and data to made me think that is true.

 

16 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Similarly, when it comes to SanSan, I think it's dangerous to look at the writers downplaying the ship in Season 2, focusing on Sandor's relationship with Arya and not Sansa's, or casting someone much older than Sophie to play Sandor, and jump to the conclusion that it was done only because they've decided not to do TV SanSan and for no other reason.

Certainly, it is possible there are another reasons for them to do not include Sansan as romance in the show and maybe my hypothesis about why they do that is wrong. The problem is, I have not read yet a hypothesis strong enough to convince me that it is better than the one I use to explain it.

 

16 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Brienne said not one word about Jaime when they were separated, but once they were reunited it was all tortured gazes.

I posted part of this it before, but I think it is relevant here too:

-Jaime and Brienne relationship: around 50 minutes (season 2,3,4,6)+ the tiny separation scene (season 5)
-Arya and Sandor relationship: around 40 minutes (season 3,4) +2 relatively long separation scenes (season 5,6) + 1 tiny reference to Arya in Sandor dialogue + another reference to their relationship in Brienne dialogue (season 6)
-Sansa and Sandor relationship: around 20 minutes (season 1,2) + 0 scenes of Sansa thinking about him and only 2 references in Sandor-Arya journey that are more related to Arya herself than her older sister.

And with Sandor-Sansa we are talking about 5 seasons of separation between season 2 and a hypothetical reunion in season 8 (if Sandor never goes to Winterfell next season). With Brienne-Jaime it was only 1 season of separation.

Also, within the 20 minutes of Sansa-Sandor, many times he is just standing there. Certainly, he is mostly an action-character, but if we talk about the dialogue between both characters? around 5 minutes, or 4 minutes, if you include the fact that one of the scenes was deleted and included later in the dvd and/or blue ray.

Therefore, if we are talking about what they can do with Sandor and Sansa and we are thinking about the little scene where Jaime see the island and the lack of a similar scene with Brienne in season 5, in my opinion, the Jaime-Brienne case is not similar to the Sandor-Sansa one.That tiny separation scene is just a tiny part of their bigger ongoing story, and it is there to make the audience to remember their connection. With Sandor and Sansa is not the same. They have not a bigger ongoing story in the show.

 

16 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Everyone else, sure, but the Starks plus Dany and Tyrion? No way. They'll end up with whomever they end up with in the books.

Jon and Dany, I agree. Maybe even Tyrion. But if we think about Sansa, I ask myself: why? What narrative force compels them to write the same hypothetical Books-romantic-endgame for Show-Sansa?

 

17 hours ago, Eyes High said:

With all that said, it's way too early to say that "they never created a romantic narrative for SanSan" in the show. Sandor pretty clearly had romantic interest in Sansa in the show, even if it has yet to be reciprocated as far as we know

To clarify and to avoid a discussion about semantics, when I said "they never created a romantic narrative for Sansan in the show"  I meant this:

a) Sansan: obviously related to Sandor and Sansa relationship

b) Romantic narrative for Sansan: A narrative that includes both parts having romantic feelings and thoughts toward the other. Even if those feelings and thoughts are just the tiniest ones.

To me, in the show, it is not clear that Sandor has romantic feelings for Sansa. Maybe it is just lust.

In any case, and within my personal interpretation about what a proper "romantic narrative" entails, I said that there is not a romantic Sansan narrative in the show, because it lacks enough material, and because only one of them feels that way. And even that is not confirmed, because as I said before, maybe it is just lust.

 

17 hours ago, Eyes High said:

As for the "huge age problem," they didn't consider it a problem with LF and Sansa, so I doubt it will be an issue.

If we talk about the age of Petyr, we must remember he is a villain. With Sandor, it seems like they want him to become one of the good guys or at least something close to it. Therefore, I suspect we are talking about different cases.

[WindyNights]

Rather strange that many of you think that there'll be a King/Queen of Westeros when I think GRRM is looking to break it up because of the game of thrones. 

King Jon and Queen Daenerys is the happy, fantasy couple ending that GRRM is teasing us with before the Others rip that from us because they die saving humanity. They're messianic heroes in the end and messiahs don't tend to live.

Anyways the idea is supposed to be that the War of Five Kings is a self-destructive and meaningless war about who gets to wear a hat and sit on the iron chair. By having Jon/Dany win you're undercutting that message by having a lot of good come from it. Ultimately, I think we're going to find out that Westeros would've been better served leaving Tywin and Joffrey in-charge.

(Hint: There won't be an Iron Throne in the books because KL is going to blow up. I don't think the show had the budget for that so they blew up the Sept of Baelor instead. Cersei's likely to rule from Casterly Rock not King's Landing in the books.)

[SeanC]

34 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

Jon and Dany, I agree. Maybe even Tyrion. But if we think about Sansa, I ask myself: why? What narrative force compels them to write the same hypothetical Books-romantic-endgame for Show-Sansa?

What narrative force compels them to write the same ending for any character?  They've said all along that they're using GRRM's ending (as a string of key plot points, etc.) for the main characters.  Sansa's a main character (arguably more prominent on the show than in the books at this point).  Nothing forces them to do the same thing, but there's no particular reason to think they'd change it, either.

15 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

Rather strange that many of you think that there'll be a King/Queen of Westeros when I think GRRM is looking to break it up because of the game of thrones. 

King Jon and Queen Daenerys is the happy, fantasy couple ending that GRRM is teasing us with before the Others rip that from us because they die saving humanity. They're messianic heroes in the end and messiahs don't tend to live.

Anyways the idea is supposed to be that the War of Five Kings is a self-destructive and meaningless war about who gets to wear a hat and sit on the iron chair. By having Jon/Dany win you're undercutting that message by having a lot of good come from it. Ultimately, I think we're going to find out that Westeros would've been better served leaving Tywin and Joffrey in-charge.

(Hint: There won't be an Iron Throne in the books because KL is going to blow up. I don't think the show had the budget for that so they blew up the Sept of Baelor instead. Cersei's likely to rule from Casterly Rock not King's Landing in the books.)

How exactly would Jon and Dany saving the world lead to the moral that Westeros would have been better-served leaving Tywin and Joffrey in charge?

Also, while the war is destructive, it's not pointless who sits on the throne.  On the contrary, it matters quite a lot whether the king is somebody who gives a damn about the people or not; whether it's someone who will put the defense of the realm first, or their own petty interests first.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, OhOkayWhat said:

Jon and Dany, I agree. Maybe even Tyrion. But if we think about Sansa, I ask myself: why? What narrative force compels them to write the same hypothetical Books-romantic-endgame for Show-Sansa?

Because even if she's never been one of the main five, she's still a very important character. D&D have said they're sticking to GRRM's ending. Sansa and the other Starks' endgame romantic partners (if any) are part of that endgame.

42 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

Rather strange that many of you think that there'll be a King/Queen of Westeros when I think GRRM is looking to break it up because of the game of thrones. 

King Jon and Queen Daenerys is the happy, fantasy couple ending that GRRM is teasing us with before the Others rip that from us because they die saving humanity. They're messianic heroes in the end and messiahs don't tend to live.

Anyways the idea is supposed to be that the War of Five Kings is a self-destructive and meaningless war about who gets to wear a hat and sit on the iron chair. By having Jon/Dany win you're undercutting that message by having a lot of good come from it. Ultimately, I think we're going to find out that Westeros would've been better served leaving Tywin and Joffrey in-charge.

I disagree. GRRM drew heavily on the Wars of the Roses in developing ASOIAF, as he has cheerfully admitted. In fact, his earliest conception of the story as I understand it was more of a straight up historical AU version of the Wars of the Roses (thus Lannister/Lancaster and York/Stark, although ASOIAF draws on the WOTR for the Targs and the Baratheons as well, such as Henry VI duplicate Aerys Targaryen or Edward IV duplicate Robert Baratheon). It was only later that he was persuaded by someone else to throw in dragons. Since GRRM has been adamant about sticking to the same ending, I'm guessing the ending might be a lot more conventional than you think.

The historical Wars of the Roses ended in unification, not division: a marriage between Henry Tudor and Elizabeth of York, uniting the two warring houses of Lannister and York and founding a new dynasty (which didn't last terribly long in the grand scheme of things, but still). Dany fits the mould of Henry Tudor quite nicely: lived in exile for years in fear of her life, plotted a comeback from overseas, has a red dragon as her emblem, focus of messianic prophecies, etc. If Jon's parentage as the legitimate heir is revealed, he could fit the mould of Elizabeth of York quite nicely, too: Henry Tudor married Elizabeth to solidify his throne, something Dany may very well do if Jon's superior claim is revealed. (Jon also has elements of Henry Tudor, since Henry Tudor had a very tenuous claim to the throne based on bastardy.) Henry and Elizabeth had a pretty decent marriage as far as political matches in those days went, too.

Admittedly, the Wars of the Roses did not have dragons flying about and ice zombies overrunning the countryside. However, when GRRM was writing the story of the Dance of the Dragons, he turned to the historical Anarchy, where rival claimants Stephen and Matilda battled it out for England. And while there were dragons aplenty in GRRM's version of the story, the end result--the female claimant's son inheriting the throne--was the same.

There has been a lot of interest in the fandom in Henry Tudor and Elizabeth of York, because some believe that if their ASOIAF equivalents can be sussed out, then the puzzle of who's going to end up on the Iron Throne can be cracked. There might be something to it.

Edited November 3, 2016 by Eyes High

[MarySNJ]

1 hour ago, OhOkayWhat said:

Maybe that is not the only reason they wrote it. Maybe it existed to show the different attitudes of Tyrion and Sandor towards Sansa. And Sandor attitude does not look good at all.

 

As I have said before, yes, romantic Sansan is still possible. In other words, I agree with you that we cannot say with certainty that there will not be romantic Sansan as endgame in the show.

But what I do is to try to analyze the probabilities of it being true. And to me, it seems that even if it is not impossible, it is an unlikely ship. How do I determine this? Analyzing what I see on screen and the related data at hand.

A good example of this point here: I never said romantic Jon/Sansa was a likely ship in the show. Why? because, among other issues with that couple, there is not enough on screen material and data to made me think that is true.

 

Certainly, it is possible there are another reasons for them to do not include Sansan as romance in the show and maybe my hypothesis about why they do that is wrong. The problem is, I have not read yet a hypothesis strong enough to convince me that it is better than the one I use to explain it.

 

I posted part of this it before, but I think it is relevant here too:

-Jaime and Brienne relationship: around 50 minutes (season 2,3,4,6)+ the tiny separation scene (season 5)
-Arya and Sandor relationship: around 40 minutes (season 3,4) +2 relatively long separation scenes (season 5,6) + 1 tiny reference to Arya in Sandor dialogue + another reference to their relationship in Brienne dialogue (season 6)
-Sansa and Sandor relationship: around 20 minutes (season 1,2) + 0 scenes of Sansa thinking about him and only 2 references in Sandor-Arya journey that are more related to Arya herself than her older sister.

And with Sandor-Sansa we are talking about 5 seasons of separation between season 2 and a hypothetical reunion in season 8 (if Sandor never goes to Winterfell next season). With Brienne-Jaime it was only 1 season of separation.

Also, within the 20 minutes of Sansa-Sandor, many times he is just standing there. Certainly, he is mostly an action-character, but if we talk about the dialogue between both characters? around 5 minutes, or 4 minutes, if you include the fact that one of the scenes was deleted and included later in the dvd and/or blue ray.

Therefore, if we are talking about what they can do with Sandor and Sansa and we are thinking about the little scene where Jaime see the island and the lack of a similar scene with Brienne in season 5, in my opinion, the Jaime-Brienne case is not similar to the Sandor-Sansa one.That tiny separation scene is just a tiny part of their bigger ongoing story, and it is there to make the audience to remember their connection. With Sandor and Sansa is not the same. They have not a bigger ongoing story in the show.

 

Jon and Dany, I agree. Maybe even Tyrion. But if we think about Sansa, I ask myself: why? What narrative force compels them to write the same hypothetical Books-romantic-endgame for Show-Sansa?

 

To clarify and to avoid a discussion about semantics, when I said "they never created a romantic narrative for Sansan in the show"  I meant this:

a) Sansan: obviously related to Sandor and Sansa relationship

b) Romantic narrative for Sansan: A narrative that includes both parts having romantic feelings and thoughts toward the other. Even if those feelings and thoughts are just the tiniest ones.

To me, in the show, it is not clear that Sandor has romantic feelings for Sansa. Maybe it is just lust.

In any case, and within my personal interpretation about what a proper "romantic narrative" entails, I said that there is not a romantic Sansan narrative in the show, because it lacks enough material, and because only one of them feels that way. And even that is not confirmed, because as I said before, maybe it is just lust.

 

If we talk about the age of Petyr, we must remember he is a villain. With Sandor, it seems like they want him to become one of the good guys or at least something close to it. Therefore, I suspect we are talking about different cases.

Sticking  my toe in the stormy shipping lanes... 

Obviously, we'll have to wait and see how the relationships between Sandor and the Stark sisters work out, both in the books and in the show. My personal take on Sandor's demeanor towards both Stark girls is motivated more by his failure to protect his own sister who died under mysterious circumstances - but implied she was murdered by Gregor. Despite his feigned indifference, he seems compelled to do what he can to protect them even when it's dangerous to himself. He may have lusted after Sansa, but I still think his main motivation is trying to atone for failing his own sister by protecting other little sisters. 

As for Sansa's feelings about Sandor, she was a young captive girl who had few protectors and friends in King's Landing and Sandor was one of the few who was kind to her in his own way. Thirteen year old girls can crush on people who are not right for them and can imbue them with qualities they don't possess and create fantasies. Hell, grownups can do that too. That doesn't mean that her girlish imagination will amount to an endgame romance.  Also, as much as I enjoy these stories, I sometimes think that GRRM has a very limited understanding about what young women think and feel, especially a girl like Sansa who is not a tomboy. I'm not sure we should take Sansa's fantasy to be prophetic so much as a symptom of emotionally connecting to one of the very few people who tried to help her in KL before Petyr got involved. 

Edited November 3, 2016 by MarySNJ

[SeanC]

21 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

The historical Wars of the Roses ended in unification, not division: a marriage between Henry Tudor and Elizabeth of York, uniting the two warring houses of Lannister and York and founding a new dynasty (which didn't last terribly long in the grand scheme of things, but still). 

Even then, though they've changed the house name a couple of times, Henry and Elizabeth's great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-granddaughter sits the throne of England (and numerous other places) to this day.

[Eyes High]

14 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Even then, though they've changed the house name a couple of times, Henry and Elizabeth's great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-granddaughter sits the throne of England (and numerous other places) to this day.

The Tudors were extinguished in Henry's male line in extremely short order. The dynasty, such as it was, is considered to have ended with Elizabeth I. So, as I said, very short.

Edited November 3, 2016 by Eyes High

[SeanC]

39 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

The Tudors were extinguished in Henry's male line in extremely short order. The dynasty, such as it was, is considered to have ended with Elizabeth I. So, as I said, very short.

I'm sure Henry would still be pleased that his descendants are still wearing the crown 500 years after his demise, even if the Tudor name itself only lasted 100 of those years.

[Eyes High]

21 minutes ago, SeanC said:

I'm sure Henry would still be pleased that his descendants are still wearing the crown 500 years after his demise, even if the Tudor name itself only lasted 100 of those years.

I assume you're joking. His son, Henry VIII, was so concerned with continuing the male line that he got rid of one wife and executed another just so he could get a male heir. Daughters in that era were worthless as far as succession went since they could not continue the name, something Henry VII knew just as well as his son. The name and the ability to continue the name mattered, not the blood: just ask Anne Boleyn. But the joke's on Henry VIII: all three of his children, including his son, died without issue anyway, putting an end to the Tudor dynasty for good. (Arthur Tudor, Henry VII's other son, died without issue.)

Elizabeth II can trace her lineage to Henry VII, but the Tudor dynasty died a very long time ago, which in that time was the only thing that mattered. As dynasties go, the Tudor dynasty was a flash in the pan.

Quote

That doesn't mean that her girlish imagination will amount to an endgame romance.

The problem is that GRRM loves the story of Beauty and the Beast, and in particular Cocteau's film Beauty and the Beast, and that film clearly inspired elements of the Sandor/Sansa storyline in the books. If GRRM thinks of their relationship as romantic and modeled it after one of his favourite romantic movies, I think he might attach more weight to it than the mere product of "girlish imagination." We might not see it as particularly romantic, but he seems to.