Babylon 5 - General Discussion

[Joe Hellandback]

11 hours ago, John Potts said:

The twist being that while in The Prisoner the Number 2 would say it while forming a "b" over their eye, Psi Corps do it over their forehead because they're not watching what you do, they're watching what you're thinking.

I have to say, I disliked much of the first series because the reptilian Narn were so clearly the villains while the more human looking Centauri (and to a lesser extent, the Minbari) were more sympathetic. So I was glad that later on, the Centauri/Narn relationship becomes rather more nuanced.

Interesting, is that official or just your own interpretation? I never thought of it that way but you are right, we naturally tend to side with the Centuri as they are so human. Plus of course they are the post colonial power whilst the Narn are the post colonised people, as westerners we see their viewpoint more. The scene where Morden goes around asking all the races what the want is pivotal, Earth isn't really fussed, the Minbari recognise him for what he is, the Narn want revenge on the Centuri but beyond that have no real ambitions. It's Londo despite possibly being the most peaceful of all the races who tells them what they want to hear, to restore the Centuri empire? 

[SVNBob]

1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Are you sure you're not thinking of the ep later where they rescue Na'toth?  

No, I'm quite sure.  The scene with the spoo is before the scene where Londo tells Sinclair about his prophetic death dream.

Edited December 11, 2018 by SVNBob

[John Potts]

1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Interesting, is that official or just your own interpretation? I never thought of it that way but you are right, we naturally tend to side with the Centuri as they are so human.

It's my interpretation that we're meant to sympathise with the Centauri, but I'm pretty sure it's deliberate. The Narn are helping to supply the raiders (I think?), they helped in the attempted assassination of Kosh in the Pilot and they're generally aggressive, while the Centauri are kind of pathetic ("See the once mighty Centauri Empire, available 9 to 5 - Earth time!"* - Londo Mollari). Plus the Centauri are almost human (genitalia aside) while the Narn are reptilian, which calls to our human sense of otherness. Obviously, it changes, but that's one of the reasons the 1st Season was disappointing to me.

* Probably not the exact quote, but my Google-Fu let me down

[ProfCrash]

While the Narn are the aggressors in season 1, it is clear that they are the victims of the Centauri and their colonization. Garibaldi and Londo banter back and forth about hw the Centauri tried to take advantage of humans by claiming that Earth was a lost colony. All of Londo's angst is directed at the fall of Centauri dominance in the universe. I never felt bad for Londo or the Centauri because there was more then enough discussion about how the Centauri looted and plundered and killed in the name of their empire. While the Narn response was extreme, I felt a bit more sympathy to the Narn then I did the Centauri.

I don't think we are suppose to sympathize with either the Narn or the Centauri. I think most of the first season was spent with Sinclair warning both groups that their behavior was problematic for different reasons and this was not going to end well. Honestly, I see them as the opposite side of the same coin. Neither Londo or Kosh are particularly diplomatic, subtle or good at their jobs. One is wallowing in past glory lost and the other is wallowing in new found power and prestige. Neither was going to end well.

[ganesh]

6 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

It's Londo despite possibly being the most peaceful of all the races who tells them what they want to hear, to restore the Centuri empire?

I'm not sure saying he wants the Centauri to be the "lion of the galaxy" is particularly peaceful. It sounded to me like they wanted to re-colonize everything. 

5 hours ago, John Potts said:

Plus the Centauri are almost human (genitalia aside)

"Well be in touch." "Meh. Touch this."

4 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

Garibaldi and Londo banter back and forth about hw the Centauri tried to take advantage of humans by claiming that Earth was a lost colony.

Beta-11. Beta-12. It was a clerical error!

4 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

One is wallowing in past glory lost

I will give Londo a little credit because he knows he's a 'washed up republican, dreaming of better days.' He also mentioned several times that the post to B5 was considered a joke back on Prime and to Garilbadi that they're both 'the odd man out'. 

I always felt that the story of B5 was really Londo's story.

[ProfCrash]

1 hour ago, ganesh said:

I will give Londo a little credit because he knows he's a 'washed up republican, dreaming of better days.' He also mentioned several times that the post to B5 was considered a joke back on Prime and to Garilbadi that they're both 'the odd man out'. 

I always felt that the story of B5 was really Londo's story.

I agree. B5 was so much Londo's story, and a sad one at that.

Londo knew who he was in season 1 and was desperate to change his, and Centauri Prime's position. It was bound to end badly. Sinclair tried to warn both Londo and G'Kar at various times but they were both too pig headed to listened. Not surprising in the least bit.

[ganesh]

For the new people, the Centauri books really cement that for me. 

[Joe Hellandback]

22 hours ago, SVNBob said:

No, I'm quite sure.  The scene with the spoo is before the scene where Londo tells Sinclair about his prophetic death dream.

Ok, I'll check

[Joe Hellandback]

20 hours ago, John Potts said:

It's my interpretation that we're meant to sympathise with the Centauri, but I'm pretty sure it's deliberate. The Narn are helping to supply the raiders (I think?), they helped in the attempted assassination of Kosh in the Pilot and they're generally aggressive, while the Centauri are kind of pathetic ("See the once mighty Centauri Empire, available 9 to 5 - Earth time!"* - Londo Mollari). Plus the Centauri are almost human (genitalia aside) while the Narn are reptilian, which calls to our human sense of otherness. Obviously, it changes, but that's one of the reasons the 1st Season was disappointing to me.

* Probably not the exact quote, but my Google-Fu let me down

The Centuri are pretty much the Italians (and Europeans generally?), faded with their glory days behind them, they lack the aggression of the Narns or Drazi and didn't nearly destroy us like the Centuri. In fact when the Centuri meet us they're happy to leave us alone, even if we are technologically inferior to them (perhaps this is simple racism, they're we're like them, the Narns are different). 

15 hours ago, ganesh said:

I'm not sure saying he wants the Centauri to be the "lion of the galaxy" is particularly peaceful. It sounded to me like they wanted to re-colonize everything. 

"Well be in touch." "Meh. Touch this."

Beta-11. Beta-12. It was a clerical error!

I will give Londo a little credit because he knows he's a 'washed up republican, dreaming of better days.' He also mentioned several times that the post to B5 was considered a joke back on Prime and to Garilbadi that they're both 'the odd man out'. 

I always felt that the story of B5 was really Londo's story.

Yeah, in many ways it was, he grows yet is corrupted at the same time, if B5's story is a triumph Londo's is the tragedy. 

14 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

I agree. B5 was so much Londo's story, and a sad one at that.

Londo knew who he was in season 1 and was desperate to change his, and Centauri Prime's position. It was bound to end badly. Sinclair tried to warn both Londo and G'Kar at various times but they were both too pig headed to listened. Not surprising in the least bit.

What would have happened had Mr Mordern not happened along? 

[Joe Hellandback]

A Spider in the Web;

Mr Takagi! And once again comes to a bad end. Adrienne Barbeau! YAY! And of course Jeff Conway! Word was he was a fan and turned up on set for a visit, did a cameo and the rest is history, certainly helped his career and bank balance. We have 'Amanda Carter of Mars', a relative of John? We have a Sheridan/Talia scene which is a rarity and Ivanova remarks that she is 'Interesting', hmmmmmm? No aliens this week at all. Sheridan is hesitant to spy on the business deal but Earthforce is surely right if they fear it is funding Free Mars terrorists. B5 security have to buck up their ideas, they walk Talia into the room and wait outside without even checking it? Nice ref to Sinclair, nice to see Talia is still loyal to Psicorps? A small thing but how stupid is the 'dead' psicop's ID photo Talia looks at, who poses like that? One question, was Carter genuine or luring Talia into a trap? 

[ProfCrash]

I suspect that the Narns would have continue to press their new found might and the Centauri would have continued to have little influence. But Mr. Morden did come along and Londo fell into his trap and the rest is history. The really sad part is that Londo figures it out eventually but can’t stop the ball from rolling.

[ganesh]

He sticks it to Morden one last time though. 

Edited December 12, 2018 by ganesh

[ottoDbusdriver]

54 minutes ago, ganesh said:

He sticks it to Morden one last time though. 

I see what you did there.  Lando's gift to Vir.
 

[Joe Hellandback]

19 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

I suspect that the Narns would have continue to press their new found might and the Centauri would have continued to have little influence. But Mr. Morden did come along and Londo fell into his trap and the rest is history. The really sad part is that Londo figures it out eventually but can’t stop the ball from rolling.

Destiny? Or as Delenn observes they would have found someone else.?

[Joe Hellandback]

Soul Mates;

Keith Sazabajka! Yay, I can do B5 to Buffy in one in Six Degrees of Bufferation. The Centuri remind me more and more of the Borgias. Check out Vir's little look when Mariel walks in. Boy is Garabaldi thuggish/jealous when it comes to Talias ex. Minbari souls are mentioned again. So sad Jane Carr doesn't return for other eps. Some lovely G'kar, Londo, Mariel scenes. First watched this ep at uni with a bunch of people who were by no mean sci-fi fans but the 'Odd cramps' line had them rolling on the floor.  

Best line; "Why must we get involved in this verbal fencing?"

"Because I don't have a real sword handy?"

8/10

[Joe Hellandback]

A Race Through Dark Places

A military build up, harking perhaps towards the next few eps. Love Bester's little gesture when he plucks the memory out, love the recurring Lurker who also turned up at the end of last season. We see an uncharacteristically happy Ivanova in the bar, effective illusion, fooled me entirely even on the rewatch. Notice Talia bring booze late at night to a scantily clad Ivanova's cabin?

A Coming of Shadows

Centuri politics are quite fascinating. I always wondered if their antipathy with the Narns was quasi racism, the Centuri colonise the Narns because they're reptiles and are considered less worthy, like the Europeans treating differently African compared to India, China etc Zack back again. You forget early, angry G'kar compared to the figure he will become. The flash forwards are inspired, the advantage of the arc. Our first Ranger? Nice to see Sinclair back, forgot he cameoed here. Forgot how ruthless Rifa is, conspiring for the throne is one thing, killing the Prime Minister a whole other ball game. How much did Londo know?

Gropos

 Notice when addressing the General the other stand at ease but Garabaldi has his hands in his pockets? The great Paul Winfield. Is this part of the Earth conspiracy, more and more military buildup? You'd think any commander would welcome increased defences and a visiting fleet flying the flag, especially with the Narn/Centuri conflict? Delenn's comments are a bit strange, surely with the coming Shadow war she'd want a more formidable B5?  

[SVNBob]

6 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Our first Ranger?

Yes and no.  Our first Ranger with lines, for certain.  But if you look in the background at all the previous episodes of Season 2, you're likely to spot a Ranger here and there, lending credence to this Ranger's story about them keeping an eye on B5 for Sinclair.  The most obvious one is in the bar fight scene a couple episodes back.  When...whoever it was jumped off the counter into the fight, a Ranger can be seen sitting right there.

[John Potts]

21 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Our first Ranger?

Oh, the first Ranger but not the FIRST Ranger (who is presumably currently kicking it back on Minbar at this point). That comment had me confused for a moment!

On ‎13‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 9:31 AM, Joe Hellandback said:

Destiny? Or as Delenn observes they would have found someone else.?

Maybe the Drazi? They seem to have the sort of aggressive, expansionist attitude the Shadows would want and are (maybe?) the most powerful of the Non-Aligned worlds.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎14‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 8:03 AM, SVNBob said:

Yes and no.  Our first Ranger with lines, for certain.  But if you look in the background at all the previous episodes of Season 2, you're likely to spot a Ranger here and there, lending credence to this Ranger's story about them keeping an eye on B5 for Sinclair.  The most obvious one is in the bar fight scene a couple episodes back.  When...whoever it was jumped off the counter into the fight, a Ranger can be seen sitting right there.

Okay, I'll look out for them

All Alone in the Night

Lennier and Delenn obviously much closer. presaging what will come. Soon as you see the escort pilot you know he's toast, if he wasn't  it would be Keffer who was going with the Captain. We even have a little interaction with the doc to give his character some pathos. The Captain's story isn't very interesting, we should count how many times a sci-fi protagonist ends up in a gladiatorial arena,  although I do like one of his motivations for flying the mission himself is to keep up his flight pay (never get that on Star Trek!). Delenn's story is much better, we see that even the restrained and religious Minbari have internal political strife. Still now we know that Sheridan is actually a plant for those opposing the creeping dictatorship overtaking Earth.  

7/10

[ProfCrash]

18 hours ago, John Potts said:

Oh, the first Ranger but not the FIRST Ranger (who is presumably currently kicking it back on Minbar at this point). That comment had me confused for a moment!

Maybe the Drazi? They seem to have the sort of aggressive, expansionist attitude the Shadows would want and are (maybe?) the most powerful of the Non-Aligned worlds.

The Drazi are aggressive but not expansionist or particularly smart. They determine their government by splitting in two and beating each other into submission. Not what the Shadows would be looking for.

[ganesh]

7 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

I do like one of his motivations for flying the mission himself is to keep up his flight pay (never get that on Star Trek!).

The show always had small details that made it seem like a functioning space station. I always liked the uniforms. They had jackets and pockets. 

[Joe Hellandback]

18 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

The Drazi are aggressive but not expansionist or particularly smart. They determine their government by splitting in two and beating each other into submission. Not what the Shadows would be looking for.

Good reasoning, they're also part of the non-aligned worlds, the Centuri may be a shadow of their former selves but they're still a first rate power. 

[Joe Hellandback]

16 hours ago, ganesh said:

The show always had small details that made it seem like a functioning space station. I always liked the uniforms. They had jackets and pockets. 

I'm always reminded of the story from BSG where there's a sequence Adama is picking up trash from the Battlestar's corridors in an attempt to reassert discipline and the scriptwriter wrote that he puts it in his pockets. But their uniforms have no pockets so he gets special trousers made for him with pockets and Eddie Alomos goes around showing them off to the rest of the cast.  

[Joe Hellandback]

Acts of Sacrifice;

God, the Narns are always getting hammered and not just by the Shadows, you wonder how they were able to overthrow the Centuri in the first place? All of course a parable for the contemporary conflicts in Yugoslavia, each side portraying itself as the victim and pleading for outside intervention, all the Western powers wanting to give humanitarian aid but reluctant to get involved in a conflict where there was no direct strategic advantage for them and no clear good guy. Glenn Morshower, B5 to Buffy in one! The G'kar and Delenn scene is excellent, you can really see both sides. The species CC is giving the tour to have a very Shadow like philosophy, the 'sex' scene had us rolling on the floor at Uni. Love the Lando/Garabaldi scene, you so feel for him. If there's leftover food why not give it to the Lurkers?

Hunter, Prey

All the Vorlorn ship scenes are so cool and we have Sheridan and Kosh's relationship really kicking in here (you wonder what was his attitude to Sinclair being transferred?). Nice rep to the earlier ep (can't recall the name but it's the one with David McCallum?) where Garabaldi points out that people Stephen vouched for before don't always turn out so sincere. Love Garabaldi's hat!  

[John Potts]

22 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

The Drazi are aggressive but not expansionist or particularly smart.

Well:

Spoiler

It was an Alliance of the Narns and the Drazi that bring about the Fall of Centauri Prime, so they're not entirely insular.

(Not sure I should be Spoilering a 20 year old series, but it is near the end!)

[ketose]

On 12/12/2018 at 3:57 AM, Joe Hellandback said:

The Centuri are pretty much the Italians (and Europeans generally?), faded with their glory days behind them, they lack the aggression of the Narns or Drazi and didn't nearly destroy us like the Centuri. In fact when the Centuri meet us they're happy to leave us alone, even if we are technologically inferior to them (perhaps this is simple racism, they're we're like them, the Narns are different). 

Yeah, in many ways it was, he grows yet is corrupted at the same time, if B5's story is a triumph Londo's is the tragedy. 

What would have happened had Mr Mordern not happened along? 

Morden specifically or the Shadows? I think Centauris were trying to forge an alliance with Earth, but the stuff with Clarke was about consolidating power and using xenophobia as a tool to keep people in line. We know that Clarke was aided by the Shadows. Without them, Earth and Centauri Prime might have brokered some sort of deal and kept the Narn at bay, which was all Mollari could have hoped for.

A lot of things had to happen in a certain order to lead to the events of Babylon 5. Most notably was Delenn 1)Calling for the first attack on an Earth ship that started the war then 2)Demanding that they test at least 1 human to see if he shared the same soul as Minbari. Morden and Mollari were in a certain place at a certain time, which is how most of the important moments in B5 happen.

[ProfCrash]

1 hour ago, John Potts said:

Well:

  Hide contents

It was an Alliance of the Narns and the Drazi that bring about the Fall of Centauri Prime, so they're not entirely insular.

(Not sure I should be Spoilering a 20 year old series, but it is near the end!)

 No reason to spoil the show. Maybe we can start a thread for folks who are watching for the first time and add no spoilers there. At this point most people should know that the series is 100% out there and that the main topic includes spoilers.

The Drazi are not totally insular but they are not exactly imperialists. A race can participate in military actions and not be interested in conquest. A race can also chaange its attitudes over times. 

At the time that Morden was looking for a race to work with, the Drazi were not interested in expansion or conquest. The Narn and the Centauri were the natural races to talk to because of their known antagonism. the Narn were ruled out because they were mainly interested in destroying the Centauri and that was about it. The Centauri have a large element that wanted to see Centauri Prime return to its imperialistic past. Londo wanted the glory of the old republic, think Rome and not the Italians. There is a hige historical difference between the Ancient Romans and the Italians. 

The Drazi were more interested in maintaining their own place in the Galaxy and not seeing other wars tear the system apart. After the Shadow War the Drazi seem to be a bit more aggresive, perhaps being targeted made them more agressive but they are stopped pretty easily and quickly.

[ganesh]

2 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

A race can participate in military actions and not be interested in conquest.

It's strategic. You can align with another nation to hold a larger one at bay and get them out of your neighborhood, for example. 

[call me ishmael]

One thing that I have always considered a bit inconsistent about the Shadows choices

Spoiler

is that there big story line is about creating chaos.  But if that is true then they don't really need worlds just like the Centauri.  Anyone who is willing to engage in some sort of regional squabble could start the chain reaction that they want.  I can understand the need early on in the series when we were supposed to think that the distinction between Shadows and Vorlons was simple.  But ultimately it made little sense.

Like others I feel strange putting spoilers on a comment but I know that some people are watching for the first time.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎16‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 4:32 PM, ketose said:

Morden specifically or the Shadows? I think Centauris were trying to forge an alliance with Earth, but the stuff with Clarke was about consolidating power and using xenophobia as a tool to keep people in line. We know that Clarke was aided by the Shadows. Without them, Earth and Centauri Prime might have brokered some sort of deal and kept the Narn at bay, which was all Mollari could have hoped for.

A lot of things had to happen in a certain order to lead to the events of Babylon 5. Most notably was Delenn 1)Calling for the first attack on an Earth ship that started the war then 2)Demanding that they test at least 1 human to see if he shared the same soul as Minbari. Morden and Mollari were in a certain place at a certain time, which is how most of the important moments in B5 happen.

I think some form of conflict between the Narns and Centuri was inevitable but the other races would have sat it out and eventually they would petered out. But the Shadows gave the Centuri such an advantage. 

On ‎16‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 4:08 PM, John Potts said:

Well:

  Reveal hidden contents

It was an Alliance of the Narns and the Drazi that bring about the Fall of Centauri Prime, so they're not entirely insular.

(Not sure I should be Spoilering a 20 year old series, but it is near the end!)

I think spoilers are fine for a general discussion thread, individual ep threads shouldn't contain spoilers (as I keep getting told off for on the Buffy board!)

On ‎16‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 5:37 PM, ProfCrash said:

 No reason to spoil the show. Maybe we can start a thread for folks who are watching for the first time and add no spoilers there. At this point most people should know that the series is 100% out there and that the main topic includes spoilers.

The Drazi are not totally insular but they are not exactly imperialists. A race can participate in military actions and not be interested in conquest. A race can also chaange its attitudes over times. 

At the time that Morden was looking for a race to work with, the Drazi were not interested in expansion or conquest. The Narn and the Centauri were the natural races to talk to because of their known antagonism. the Narn were ruled out because they were mainly interested in destroying the Centauri and that was about it. The Centauri have a large element that wanted to see Centauri Prime return to its imperialistic past. Londo wanted the glory of the old republic, think Rome and not the Italians. There is a hige historical difference between the Ancient Romans and the Italians. 

The Drazi were more interested in maintaining their own place in the Galaxy and not seeing other wars tear the system apart. After the Shadow War the Drazi seem to be a bit more aggresive, perhaps being targeted made them more agressive but they are stopped pretty easily and quickly.

Italian imperialism didn't end with the Romans, remember Mussolini? 

[Joe Hellandback]

19 hours ago, call me ishmael said:

One thing that I have always considered a bit inconsistent about the Shadows choices

  Hide contents

is that there big story line is about creating chaos.  But if that is true then they don't really need worlds just like the Centauri.  Anyone who is willing to engage in some sort of regional squabble could start the chain reaction that they want.  I can understand the need early on in the series when we were supposed to think that the distinction between Shadows and Vorlons was simple.  But ultimately it made little sense.

Like others I feel strange putting spoilers on a comment but I know that some people are watching for the first time.

They do, they need someone to come out on top, remember they don't simply want destruction, method in their madness. 

 Well, unfortunately Sky One has stopped showing B5 for the moment so I'll start doing Xena instead and let you know if they begin again. 

[ProfCrash]

The Roman Empire is a part of Italian history but modern day Italy never came close to the influence of Ancient Rome. Modern day Italy did not come into existence really until the late 1800's. Rome wasn't brought back into the Italian state until 1871. You may as well make the argument that Athens of Ancient Greece is the same as Athens today. The Centauri were based off the end state of the Ancient Roman Empire. Mussolini was a dictator and a tyrant but he was still the under card to Hitler. Mussolini probably wouldn't have lasted all that long in Ancient Rome, he wasn't nearly nasty enough.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_unification

[call me ishmael]

7 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

They do, they need someone to come out on top, remember they don't simply want destruction, method in their madness. 

 Well, unfortunately Sky One has stopped showing B5 for the moment so I'll start doing Xena instead and let you know if they begin again. 

I’m not totally convinced.  They need conflict.  It doesn’t matter if their chosen is the winner so much as someone wins and embraces conflict.

[ProfCrash]

7 minutes ago, call me ishmael said:

I’m not totally convinced.  They need conflict.  It doesn’t matter if their chosen is the winner so much as someone wins and embraces conflict.

Agreed. The Shadows wanted to sow conflict and the Vorlons prized order. Every 1,000 years both sides would look for races they could direct, conflict would emerge and then end. We never learned how the past conflicts ended. Valen shows up with B4 and is able to turn the last war around and it ended in a stalemate. But how that was achieved was never addressed in the books, comic, show or movies.

There was a clear cycle of a war between Shadow and Vorlon agents every 1,000 years. Normally the war ended in a stalemate with the Shadows and Vorlons maintaining influence with a few races but mainly disappearing from the scene. There never appeared to be a real attempt to actually wipe out the other side, only stir up crap between the younger races. This was the first war where either the Shadows or Vorlons brought out the planet busters and started to actively target each other. I can't help but feel like we were cheated by the ending of the Shadow/Vorlon war because the notion that they were two badly behaved First Ones who needed to be schooled by their Daddy still irks. I want to believe that there was more depth to that story line that we were denied by the need to wrap up the series a season early.

Essentially, we never really got to understand what had been driving a core plot for the entire show. Instead we ended up with singing telepaths.

I am still annoyed.

[ganesh]

Wiiiilllllooooow. 

[call me ishmael]

4 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

Agreed. The Shadows wanted to sow conflict and the Vorlons prized order. Every 1,000 years both sides would look for races they could direct, conflict would emerge and then end. We never learned how the past conflicts ended. Valen shows up with B4 and is able to turn the last war around and it ended in a stalemate. But how that was achieved was never addressed in the books, comic, show or movies.

There was a clear cycle of a war between Shadow and Vorlon agents every 1,000 years. Normally the war ended in a stalemate with the Shadows and Vorlons maintaining influence with a few races but mainly disappearing from the scene. There never appeared to be a real attempt to actually wipe out the other side, only stir up crap between the younger races. This was the first war where either the Shadows or Vorlons brought out the planet busters and started to actively target each other. I can't help but feel like we were cheated by the ending of the Shadow/Vorlon war because the notion that they were two badly behaved First Ones who needed to be schooled by their Daddy still irks. I want to believe that there was more depth to that story line that we were denied by the need to wrap up the series a season early.

Essentially, we never really got to understand what had been driving a core plot for the entire show. Instead we ended up with singing telepaths.

I am still annoyed.a

All of this.  We spend 4 years being told that the shadows are evil, about 1 1/2 seasons learning the Vorlons are about as bad, and then it turns out that it's because they had to share an apartment while their friends went off to college and their father cut off their allowance.  Not a great look.

[Joe Hellandback]

20 hours ago, ganesh said:

Wiiiilllllooooow. 

Buffffffy, Daaawwwwn, Taraaaaaa?

18 hours ago, call me ishmael said:

All of this.  We spend 4 years being told that the shadows are evil, about 1 1/2 seasons learning the Vorlons are about as bad, and then it turns out that it's because they had to share an apartment while their friends went off to college and their father cut off their allowance.  Not a great look.

I always wondered that? Were the Shadows and Vorlorns left behind deliberately to look after the younger races or did they just not want to leave yet. 

[ganesh]

No, I meant the song by Byron. Also shut up Byron. 

[John Potts]

18 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Were the Shadows and Vorlorns left behind deliberately to look after the younger races or did they just not want to leave yet.

I always got the impression that they hung about because they thought they knew better than the other First Ones. Basically, they're the parents who are trying to teach their kid to ride a bike, but can't let go of it!

[ProfCrash]

22 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

I always wondered that? Were the Shadows and Vorlorns left behind deliberately to look after the younger races or did they just not want to leave yet. 

1 minute ago, John Potts said:

I always got the impression that they hung about because they thought they knew better than the other First Ones. Basically, they're the parents who are trying to teach their kid to ride a bike, but can't let go of it!

I got the impression that the Shadows and Vorlons were the kids looking to make their Dad happy and thought they could do that by "raising" the younger races. Maybe they were the middle kids who didn't get enough attention while the others grew up and went their own ways. But they were not left to guide the younger races.

[call me ishmael]

39 minutes ago, ProfCrash said:

I got the impression that the Shadows and Vorlons were the kids looking to make their Dad happy and thought they could do that by "raising" the younger races. Maybe they were the middle kids who didn't get enough attention while the others grew up and went their own ways. But they were not left to guide the younger races.

That is my sense too.  That was concealed because Delenn and the Minbari were convinced by the Vorlons that the latter were supposed to guide them.  I don’t think she ever fully broke from that mindset.

[Joe Hellandback]

2 hours ago, ganesh said:

No, I meant the song by Byron. Also shut up Byron. 

Amen to that!

[ProfCrash]

2 hours ago, call me ishmael said:

That is my sense too.  That was concealed because Delenn and the Minbari were convinced by the Vorlons that the latter were supposed to guide them.  I don’t think she ever fully broke from that mindset.

I think that the followers of both sides bought that they were special to have been chosen and saw benefits from the arrangements. God knows Londo did when he first worked with Morden. 

[ganesh]

Let me buy you a fleet of drinks!

[ParadoxLost]

On 12/19/2018 at 3:15 PM, ProfCrash said:

I think that the followers of both sides bought that they were special to have been chosen and saw benefits from the arrangements. God knows Londo did when he first worked with Morden. 

I think that Londo saw the benefits but didn't necessarily think it made him special.  He kept grabbing for power but he saw the cost of allying with the Shadows much more quickly than those touched by the Vorlons.   Londo got smacked in the face with G'kar being reasonable and hopeful almost every time he had Morden commit some atrocity yo drive the point home.   

That the Vorlons masqueraded as religious figures for the other races should have been a pretty big red flag,  I think that all the other races were conditioned to look favorably on the Vorlons got more or less ignored for a while because Kosh was ambassador and fit into the same mold as Delenn and the B5 human staff.  He was more honorable and loyal than most of those still on his homeworld.

[ketose]

I was watching Endgame and something came to me. Watching the planetary defense system missile ports open and Sheridan calling for "ramming speed" as a last resort, I was reminded of the end of "The Last Starfighter" when all the gunports opened up and shop up the Ko-dan armada, followed by the commander of the ship calling for ramming speed to take out the gunship with Alex. I was mostly able to pick that up because I was watching the DVD recently.

[Morrigan2575]

On 12/19/2018 at 12:13 PM, ProfCrash said:

I got the impression that the Shadows and Vorlons were the kids looking to make their Dad happy and thought they could do that by "raising" the younger races. Maybe they were the middle kids who didn't get enough attention while the others grew up and went their own ways. But they were not left to guide the younger races.

By the final reveal I kind of figured the Vorlons and Shadows were 2 siblings in an eternal fight over who was right. Basically Lorien was Dad, the First Ones were all siblings, Vorlons and Shadows were the closest in age (oldest, middle, youngest, doesn't matter) everyone else grew up and moved on with their lives. Dad retired because once the kids were gone he could just chill and catch up on TV. Meanwhile Vorlons and Shadows couldn't admit their sibling had a point so they just kept having the same argument over and over again and using the "kids" to prove their point. 

I'm not sure reducing them to petty children destroys their storyline. In a way it made Shadows less threatening but, kind of made both Shadows/Vorlons utterly creepy.

I actually think that the Vorlons were probably worse they basically came up with the whole good/evil, Angels/Demons stuff and planted it in every society so we'd all view Vorlons as "good" and automatically fear the Shadows. 3000 years of brainwashing the universe. 😲

[ketose]

In Season 1, the Narn were the low-key aggressors, taking Centauri colonies and attacking their assets. I think Morden's offer wouldn't interest them because the Narn were more independent minded and may have been more concerned about the Shadows from their history. The Centauri and Londo especially, were a defeated people who were addicted to power and were losing it, due to both the Narn and the fact that Earthgov was creating their own technology. Londo was a good entry point for the Shadows because he was both low ranking but still cared about the greatness of his people. By the time Londo knew what the Shadows were about, they had already proven themselves to the politically powerful and mostly insane ruling class of Centauri Prime who didn't care much about the people.

As far as the Shadows and the Vorlons, in the JMS universe, altruism seems to be in short supply. Both races kind of remind me of Randolph and Mortimer Duke in "Trading Places" when they made a $1 bet as to whether nature or nurture was more important for success. The Shadows and Vorlons made a bet. They helped whomever they needed to prove they were right, and they manipulated and killed whomever they needed to prove they were right.

[ganesh]

The vorlon were worse because they created telepaths and have us Byron. 

[ketose]

10 minutes ago, ganesh said:

The vorlon were worse because they created telepaths and have us Byron. 

Hey, the Vorlons gave us Byron's ancestors. You can't blame them for the product of generations of telepath inbreeding.