Season 12 Spoilers, Speculation and Anticipation

[Bookish Jen]

On 8/25/2016 at 8:24 AM, JMO said:

She lost me at "we have imaginative, smart writers".  

That's a 'show us', KV, not a 'tell us'.  The quality of the writing will be judged by the consumer.

Only on "Opposite Day" does CM have imaginative, smart writers," especially during the last few seasons.

Goes off to weep.

[Willowy]

Buuurrrn.

That's your opinion, and it's the opinion of... several people here, it seems. You're welcome to it, of course. But the writers, most of them anyway, are veterans. They know and do their job. They understand what it takes to make this show much more than we do - what it takes to make MANY shows - and they understand what we want, even if they can't always give it to us. They have more than just US to answer to.

The 'last few seasons' gave us Final Shot. Gatekeeper. Persuasion. The Edge of Winter. Nelson's Sparrow. A Thousand Suns. Mr. Scratch. Entropy. Hostage. The Storm.

I'll take it. 

[ForeverAlone]

Compare that to the wealth of quality episodes in the first several seasons, and the current writers are distinctly lacking in talent, at least to write for a psychological thriller. They do not display any deep knowledge of criminal psychology, so they dumb down their scripts with too much action and too much unsub. The early seasons certainly had their stinker episodes, but overall, they were much better than the episodes we see today. 

[Willowy]

I have no doubt that they are not lacking in talent, but maybe guidance. They are told what to write now, and they do it. The early seasons are history, in both form and content, and in my opinion it would serve the fandom well to be able to get past the olden days. Being stuck in seasons 1-4 does nobody any good unless you intend to just revisit your dvds, endlessly. It just ain't never gonna happen again, guys. Sorry. 

It's a different show now, no doubt. No doubt. We can either appreciate, or deride. That's not for me to say, it's up to each of us, individually, to decide if we will continue to be fans, and to continue to watch. I don't know about you, but I'm not ready to go.

[ForeverAlone]

And that is why a good chunk of the fandom of the early seasons don't watch the show anymore, just judging by the ratings and participation on fan forums from what I have seen. Because it is not the show it once was.

As for me, I don't care either way. I will continue to watch the show as long as Matthew is on it, but I couldn't care less if they cancel it. In fact, part of me hopes they do or at least Matthew leaves the show. I've long since given up hope that it will return to form. 

[Willowy]

And your point... is to just say this? "The fandom doesn't watch".... "It isn't what it once was..."  "I couldn't care less"... "I hope Matthew leaves the show."

Why would any writer attempt to rise to the occasion, to make stellar TV, to 'bring back the great'... when this is the feedback they receive from their hard work?

I realize people need to vent their opinion. I realize people need to express themselves, and have every right to. But in my opinion, you get back what you put out there. Why not elevate, instead of denigrate - why not encourage, instead of discourage?

The writers are facing a shitstorm of adversity right now. I see nothing wrong in being a supportive fandom, and weathering this all together. We have the power to make a positive difference, should we so choose. Why not? We have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

[ForeverAlone]

The reason the writers get that particular feedback is after years of weak writing. At this point, those of us who lob those criticisms don't have any faith that the current writers will consistently rise to the occasion. This isn't the result of one weak season, but rather years of them. If the writers consistently produce better scripts, the response will change. When there is the occasional good episode, the feedback is usually pretty positive. When the episode is subpar, the feedback is often negative. It is no different for this show than it is every show. 

Edited August 28, 2016 by ForeverAlone

[Willowy]

I agree with you. Though it seems to me that good scripts, good episodes, are brushed off, unacknowledged. The episodes I mentioned in the post above are generally recognized as really, really good. Held up as an example of excellence within our show and what can be done when writer nose is to the grindstone. When they are then dismissed, unappreciated... it reinforces the negative. The writers toss up their arms. "We JUST gave them this kickass episode and all they can say is it isn't as good as season 3." 

We can do better. Believe me, they want to know what we want. But if we're mean and dismissive? They get defensive and egos come into play.

We can start an actual dialogue by sensible discussion. We can. We can help to make it better, with patience, and suggestion.

[ForeverAlone]

But those episodes you cited absolutely received positive fan feedback. I have not seen much hate for those episodes (though I have specific, storytelling issues with some of the ones you mentioned). It is more just the aggregate quality of the Erica Messer era seasons is a lot lower than the Ed Bernero seasons. Every season has good episodes and bad episodes, but for the past several years, the bad episodes outnumber the good episodes.

Many fans HAVE told the writers for years what they want- mainly more team, less unsub, more profiling. The episodes that provide that get a lot of love. The ones that don't get a lot of negative feedback. This is the only show I watch where the guest stars often get more screentime than the main cast. This show is supposed to be about watching a team of skilled profilers catch serial criminals through behavioral analysis of the crime scenes and building a quality profile. That means seeing the crimes unfold through the eyes of the BAU and not having the crimes shoved in our faces by watching the unsubs dominate the episode. That is a shift in perspective and is one of the major gripes of the longtime fandom. 

Edited August 28, 2016 by ForeverAlone

[Willowy]

Nicely said! I do not disagree.

I can imagine they are particularly willing to engage in discourse, and suggestions would be welcome at this time. Should we make a list? Who's good at lists?

Edited August 28, 2016 by Franky

[ReidFan]

I'm excellent at lists! Unfortunately, I make them...and then I go to the grocery store and leave the stupid list at home.

 

[wknt3]

9 hours ago, Franky said:

Why would any writer attempt to rise to the occasion, to make stellar TV, to 'bring back the great'... when this is the feedback they receive from their hard work?

I realize people need to vent their opinion. I realize people need to express themselves, and have every right to. But in my opinion, you get back what you put out there. Why not elevate, instead of denigrate - why not encourage, instead of discourage?

The writers are facing a shitstorm of adversity right now. I see nothing wrong in being a supportive fandom, and weathering this all together. We have the power to make a positive difference, should we so choose. Why not? We have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

Why would a writer attempt to rise the occasion despite a lack of positive feedback online? Because it's their job, plain and simple. Many of us have jobs where we have to deal with customers/clients/citizens being upset with us for reasons far beyond our control. And we do our best anyways even though those jobs are less renumerative and less personally fulfilling than being a television writer. Personally I don't get why people feel compelled to stick with something that they don't find satisfying when there are other choices available (and I have skipped several CM episodes or deleted them after watching up to a point for just those reasons) and I try to praise the good as well as criticizing the bad. But that doesn't mean I don't try to provide the best possible service for everyone, punishing those who give me good feedback, helpful criticism, and useless bitching and moaning equally. I'm just a fan, but I know that if you join or stay with a long running series you are almost inevitably going to have to deal with unfavorable comparisons to the old days, fans blaming you for things beyond your control, etc. If you stay you have to do your best. Maybe you have to deal with network and external factors (more focus on villains, certain cast members having personal problems, some executive wanting you to make changes in response to a couple hundred people on Tumblr, etc.) but that doesn't excuse you from dealing with it and providing consistent characterization, avoiding constant uses of a deus ex machina plot device, trying to come up with a reason for a character to do something, and everything else. We should absolutely avoid mindless negativity. But not all criticism and comparison is mindless.

[Willowy]

32 minutes ago, wknt3 said:

 But not all criticism and comparison is mindless.

I see your point, although I didn't say that all criticism and comparison is mindless. In fact, some is necessary. I just don't think a beat down all day every day (exaggerating to make the point) is conducive to turning out your best work. There will always be criticism, just I don't think it harms anything for it to coexist with encouragement when something is amazing. To rehash old mistakes and then apply them inaccurately to current situations is damaging, as well. 

[JMO]

8 hours ago, Franky said:

Nicely said! I do not disagree.

I can imagine they are particularly willing to engage in discourse, and suggestions would be welcome at this time. Should we make a list? Who's good at lists?

You will find the lists you seek at the beginning of this thread, and at various points within it, and within the Season 11 thread, and Season 10, etc., as well as within the Writers' thread and the Bullpen.  The information has been out there, largely unattended to.  

I do understand that the writers can't 'un-write' what has gone before, and that we can all only move forward from where we are.  If you have the stamina to read through the site, you'll see that I've said that very thing a number of times before.  However, the other thing you will see, if you read through, is that the feedback has been largely consistent, and largely as FA described it, much of it unheeded.  Maybe they can't, maybe they won't.  All we know is that they don't. 

To be fair, there are a few things that have improved, apparently in response to feedback.  There must be.  But I can only think of one, at the moment, that being JJ's recovery of her original personality.  Someone else will have to help me identify more.

As to talent---well, the words 'veteran' and 'good' are not synonyms.  Many, maybe all, of us know people who have somehow lasted in our own chosen profession without bringing any particular skill to it.  I would rather measure talent by product, and not longevity.

If anyone is inclined to recreate or collate the various lists,  maybe people can read through and agree or disagree with the items.  Then you'll have a summary statement for 'the show' to see.  But, for me, rewriting them is too much work for too little reward.

[Willowy]

Right, and I have read through many of the threads, though not all, and a lot of the criticisms and/or suggestions are the same as some of my own.

Nobody has to participate in the list, it was just an idea. It might be nice to have them all in one place. If ReidFan wants to take on compiling the suggestions, or making a new thread for it if that's appropriate, that'd be cool too. Here's a simple but I think important one:

Don't regress Reid.

JMO said: But I can only think of one, at the moment, that being JJ's recovery of her original personality. I can add to that improvement, in that I feel in most of the episodes they've turned away from too much UnSub and given us much more team. 

[Old Dog]

On 8/28/2016 at 3:53 PM, Franky said:

JMO said: But I can only think of one, at the moment, that being JJ's recovery of her original personality. I can add to that improvement, in that I feel in most of the episodes they've turned away from too much UnSub and given us much more team. 

I read a comment on another forum that said the exact opposite regarding season 11 - i.e. that it concentrated on the unsubs to the detriment of the team. I can't really comment because although I watched all but 2 and three quarter episodes I truly cannot remember much about last season apart from a handful of episodes. I think the fact that the season was mostly so forgettable says a lot. I usually buy the DVDs every season but I've been asking myself if it will be worth it for Season 11 with just one really stand out episode in it.

But I do agree that JJ has been much improved although the damage they did to her character was so extensive that I doubt I will recover my liking for her.

And I agree - if they regress Reid yet again for comic effect or to enhance the other characters I would be angry but it wouldn't surprise me. I'm still doubtful that I can watch this upcoming season, even for Reid.

[senin]

I was thinking about watching or not watching from now on. I have been watching episodes from previous seasons all summer, both in DVD and when they have them on TV. 

Since I learnt that Hotch wouldn't be there anymore I have a kind of sadness everytime I see him on the screen. A couple of nights ago I was watching Nelson's Sparrow and the final scene with Rossi almost made me cry.!!

So I don't know if I am going to be able to watch from now on. It's not the "No Hotch, no watch" thing, it's just ...I don't know how to explain it. 

And I agree with the idea that any regression of Reid would be unbearable for me at this point. 

[littlecynic]

I'll just put this here...

Paget is promoted to full-time.

http://www.ew.com/article/2016/08/30/criminal-minds-paget-brewster-series-regular

[normasm]

Makes sense.

[Willowy]

Hope she's Unit Chief. :)

[senin]

So do I, but I read somewhere that they're bringing someone new for that job. Or maybe she's one of those "new people" ??

Thanks for the link to the article. 

Edited August 30, 2016 by senin

[Old Dog]

And that's my cue to retreat back to British TV. So long folks - it's been great talking to you all. Cheerio chaps!

[normasm]

Really, Old Dog? Don't leave!

[ForeverAlone]

Called it, but I imagine most of us did once we heard they were hiring some people in the wake of Thomas's firing. 

[anna0852]

Yahoo! Probably one of the smartest moves they could make.

[JMO]

I figured Paget would be one of the new regulars.  I'd rather have her than a complete newbie.  I'd be fine with her as unit chief.  Depending on how they write out Hotch, there is great opportunity for bittersweetness, especially considering Strauss brought her in to spy on him.

[Bookish Jen]

1 hour ago, Old Dog said:

And that's my cue to retreat back to British TV. So long folks - it's been great talking to you all. Cheerio chaps!

Though I would hate if you left (I love your posts). I would totally understand. I've been thinking the same thing

[ForeverAlone]

Hmmm...I have mixed feelings about this interview with Kirsten.

http://parade.com/503459/paulettecohn/criminal-minds-star-kirsten-vangsness-talks-dereks-departure-emilys-return-and-adam-rodriguez-joining-the-cast/

[normasm]

I can understand why, and I'm with you.

[Princess Lucky]

Adam Rodriguez and Paget returning? Dammit. 

I'm going to have to start watching regularly again.

[smoker]

4 hours ago, Old Dog said:

And that's my cue to retreat back to British TV. So long folks - it's been great talking to you all. Cheerio chaps!

I can't say I blame you Old Dog, after all this mess and British TV is really good, Happy Valley was my last British show, but I hope we see you around from time to time :)

Edited August 30, 2016 by smoker

[smoker]

3 hours ago, Bookish Jen said:

Though I would hate if you left (I love your posts). I would totally understand. I've been thinking the same thing

Bookish Jen, are you going to leave too? 

I'll be around while Hotch is around. That was my vow. Although, I though it would be till the very end, just like TG said. But I intend to stay around and share my craziness while I rewatch the whole show to get my Hotchner fix.

[smoker]

4 hours ago, ForeverAlone said:

Hmmm...I have mixed feelings about this interview with Kirsten.

http://parade.com/503459/paulettecohn/criminal-minds-star-kirsten-vangsness-talks-dereks-departure-emilys-return-and-adam-rodriguez-joining-the-cast/

KV said: "I am co-writing an episode later this year. It is a very impactful episode."

My feelings are they are going to disappear Hotch for the rest of the season and then they are going to pop up his decrepit corpse. After all, they have made Derek, JJ, Prentiss disappear and they have killed Gideon and Strauss, but they have never made these things happen at the same time.

I am so angry right now  :( 

 

other thoughts:

I want to hear this audio commentary: The Storm with Erica Messer and Breen Frazier.  If someone buys it I hope they're chatty about it xP

I've seen a place, it says you can rent the episode and  commentary on netflix, but I don't know if it's true. I'm curious about MGG's comment for Blood relations too.

 

I  read on Amazon UK season 11 got only 5 dvds instead of 6 so they are cutting bonus material, maybe commentaries just like they did last season.

I am so furious right now >(

Edited August 31, 2016 by smoker

[Danielg342]

So Kirsten thinks it's not accurate that the show has a lot of female victims. Apparently she doesn't know the FBI's actual crime statistics very well...which kind of irks me considering she's worked the show for so long.

Glad Prentiss is a regular now...hopefully this means she is now the Unit Chief. If she is, I hope for a few growing pains (but not too much- she should be qualified for the position anyway), and I hope her style is somewhat different than Hotch's was.

[ReidFan]

19 hours ago, Old Dog said:

And that's my cue to retreat back to British TV. So long folks - it's been great talking to you all. Cheerio chaps!

:`-(  where's the *dislike* button.... though I completely understand, Ole Doggy... but please don't go! *waaaaah*

[Bookish Jen]

This is where I am at when it comes to the current mode of CM. If the cast and crew of CM is okay with offering nothing but televised schlock, throwing out a crumb of quality eps every now and then, (and collect a pretty sizable paycheck), more power to them...

However, that doesn't mean that I, a viewer with discerning taste, needs to accept it. There is plenty of quality product out there when it comes to TV and other pop culture choices. I can focus on them instead.

[Willowy]

CM has become for me... what it is. I emphatically enjoy and discuss with friends groundbreaking excellence like Stranger Things, Mr. Robot, Orphan Black, and Jessica Jones... yet my love for Reid and our fam at the BAU somehow creates this loyalty in me that's ungenerated by other shows. 

While I no longer expect to see our show on a list for an Emmy... I'll be there til the end.

[Bookish Jen]

2 hours ago, ReidFan said:

:`-(  where's the *dislike* button.... though I completely understand, Ole Doggy... but please don't go! *waaaaah*

But would you miss me?

[Mislav]

On 28. kolovoza 2016. at 4:37 AM, Franky said:

Buuurrrn.

That's your opinion, and it's the opinion of... several people here, it seems. You're welcome to it, of course. But the writers, most of them anyway, are veterans. They know and do their job. They understand what it takes to make this show much more than we do - what it takes to make MANY shows - and they understand what we want, even if they can't always give it to us. They have more than just US to answer to.

The 'last few seasons' gave us Final Shot. Gatekeeper. Persuasion. The Edge of Winter. Nelson's Sparrow. A Thousand Suns. Mr. Scratch. Entropy. Hostage. The Storm.

I'll take it. 

No offense, but isn't that sort of like "a free ice cream in Hell"? LOL

[ReidFan]

1 hour ago, Bookish Jen said:

But would you miss me?

aw crap. YOU too?!!!!   :-(

at least *we* have FB though.

[ForeverAlone]

Press release for episode one has been published. It looks like Mr. Scratch will be making an appearance in this one, but my guess is he is supposed to be a teaser for an upcoming episode. 

http://www.spoilertv.com/2016/08/criminal-minds-episode-1201-crimson.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Edited August 31, 2016 by ForeverAlone

[smoker]

9 minutes ago, ForeverAlone said:

Press release for episode one has been published. It looks like Mr. Scratch will be making an appearance in this one, but my guess is he is supposed to be a teaser for an upcoming episode. 

http://www.spoilertv.com/2016/08/criminal-minds-episode-1201-crimson.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Hooootch! Run to the hills as fast as you can!  :'0(

Edited August 31, 2016 by smoker

[ReidFan]

:-(. Mr scratch ep should be directed by Matthew 

[Mislav]

Criminal Minds, seasons 1 to 5-great, especially seasons 1 and 3

 

Criminal Minds, seasons 6 to 9-decent, though with some big ups and downs

 

Criminal Minds, season 10 onwards-no comment

 

But damn, they were pretty good up until season ten. To me.

 

 

Also, hasn't it come to the point that even a few good episodes are, at least in some parts, re-does of the earlier episodes? "Hostage" of " Hope"? "Entropy" of "No Way Out Part 1" (but I can give that one a pass :) And so on?

[ForeverAlone]

I still think the show wasn't going to blow their wad on Mr. Scratch as part of the premiere. I think they were going to build it up and then have some sort of spectacular end to it (at least that probably is what they were planning before episode two)- sort of like the Foyet arc. So I think there will just be a small Mr. Scratch presence, to tease us for more down the road. 

[ReidFan]

I hope you're right FA. I like Bodhi Elfman, he's just the perfect blend of deceptive and creepy as Mr Scratch. And if imdb would freakin' update stuff, with like, known upcoming ep titles and guest stars.....I guess I can hold out hope that there will be more Mr Scratch somewhere down the line this season and that MGG does direct that one. (a side note, someone here mentioned they finally saw the reference to Gorgeous Gray Matter as it pertained to Reid. Care to enlighten me? I thought it was just a play on the initials (G)orgeous (G)ray (M)atter like MGG in reverse.....)

[ReidFan]

20 minutes ago, Mislav said:

 

Also, hasn't it come to the point that even a few good episodes are, at least in some parts, re-does of the earlier episodes? "Hostage" of " Hope"? "Entropy" of "No Way Out Part 1" (but I can give that one a pass :) And so on?

Hostage was more based on the actual case of Ariel Castro in Cleveland. and the three girls he'd kidnapped more than ten years ago which only came to light in 2013 when one escaped. Not sure if Hope was based on any actual case.  Hope was a story of the guy's obsession with her; Hostage was about the guy with the sex addiction/pedo issue.

And Entropy is one of the Best. Eps. of the entire series. I don't see it as a re-do of No Way Out 1, but I get if others do :) 

[senin]

Sorry about the previous post, I was triying to quote ReidFan and I made several mistakes!! And I don't know how to fix it.

Anyway, I was going to answer the question about "Grorgeous Gray Matter" , it was me who posted it in the Reid thread. I heard it yesterday in "Open Season" (season 2 Ep 21). 

Reid asks García something on the phone and she says something like "since you asked, gorgeous gray matter..... " . The quote is not literal, but it goes more or less like that, 

But muy first thought was also about the initials in reverse. 

Edited August 31, 2016 by senin

[Mislav]

Well, since Franky would like to see a list...

 

1) Make the crimes more realistic. Have the unsubs murder, mostly, for motives like lust, revenge, thrill or greed. And no more "make her eat the head of my ex girlfriend" or "I'm gonna replace her blood with the one of an immortal jelly fish" or "let's mutilate her face so she would look like my deceased girlfriend", stick to the fairly realistic murder methods (stabbing, strangulation, poisoning...) If you want to surprise the viewers, just put a little twist to the usual formula without making it too unrealistic (female serial rapist, underage serial killer, etc.)

 

2) Stop showing the unsub from the beginning, or, at least, don't make him/her take up over fifty percent of the episodes.

 

3) Find a love interest for Reid already, and don't kill her off this time.

 

4) Actually have the profile work solve the case, rather than using Garcia's magic computer. If that is too hard, combine the two. The team discovers some important clues about the unsub through the profiling, then they have Garcia look up (for example) a man in his 20s who has a prior criminal record, drives a black SUV, lives and works in that one specific neighborhood, likely works in a service industry, and he suffered a stressor recently, such as a death io a family member. Voila

 

5) Sometimes, have fun with the episodes. Just imagine a Halloween episode where the team is called over to investigate a case in a small town where lots of strange murders happen, and they encounter a strange young woman who may or may not help them and also may be or may not be involved (Nathan Harris+Zoe Hawkes?). Sort of like a homage to "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" or, in some ways, "Supernatural". There's a comic relief without dumbing down Spencer or overplaying Garcia's quirks or writing cheesy "family" moments, and a creepy case too. With Matthew Gray Gubler as a writer and a director it can become a series classic.

 

6) Speaking of cheesy family moments, just stop. It's normal to see some tension, even between long-term friends/colleagues, let alone newcomers. Heck, even within families-happy families. This whole set up with no tensions or disagreements within the team, ever, and newcomers immediately blending in, is just uninteresting and artificial.

 

7) When you do have a female unsub, don't make her overweight, delusional, nor hopelessly in love with a much more attractive man.

[Willowsmom]

Bringing Paige back is so foolish. A brand new  from outside head of unit would give them so much more new drama.