S04.E07: Travel Agents

[Darren]

I'm honestly surprised that anyone actually believed Philip had romantic feelings for Martha. There's a reason why he said "Are you crazy!?" in reply to Elizabeth's question. Because he was never romantically interested in Martha.

I'll go one step further and say that I actually remember thinking, of Matthew Rhys' acting when he was with Martha, "Come on, man, you're supposed to be convincing this woman you actually have feelings for her" because, honestly, I just thought the sell-job on Martha looked so disingenuous. Only a truly desperate, non-intuitive person would have fallen for that sell-job of romantic interest. His pacing, facial expressions, body language - everything - was so different than his interactions with Elizabeth. That's a fine line for an actor. Because, on the one hand, as an agent he's supposed to act like the love is real. But as a character, posing as another character, you also want to leave the audience with a sense that there's a difference. A tricky balance for sure. But there were times where I thought Rhys just played that a little too obviously. In fact, that's been my only complaint of pretty much any of the acting of the main players - which is so consistently excellent.

Also, please remember, the whole setup on the show was to provide us the dramatic moment where Philip assures Elizabeth of how much he loves her. It was never meant - I would contend - to help clarify for the audience where his romantic feelings lay. It was merely a scene demonstrating a bonding moment in their marriage. That was the plot device there. Full stop.

And re: Elizabeth - again - I'm flabbergasted that anyone would think her feelings for Philip aren't genuine. Of COURSE she loves him. Everything in her facial expressions, body language, and - for Elizabeth - inconsistent actions as an agent of the KGB - suggest that she loves him - DEEPLY. Is it creating some inconsistency in her? Absolutely. Is she unsure of who she is sometimes now, as a result? Absolutely! But ever since the beginning of the show, when she broke off with Gregory and famously said to Philip, of the connection between the two of them: "I feel like it's happening now" - it's been all about their relationship. It's been all about their genuine, deep (and often complicated) love for each other in the midst of their crazy lives. The show-runners themselves have said that the show, really - at the end of the day - is a story about a marriage. Everything else serves that main plot point.

[madam magpie]

Quote

Yeah, I think her jealousy wasn't totally about thinking Philip wanted Martha over her, but that Martha had parts of Philip she couldn't have. So really what she was asking was if he could be happy with Martha since Martha also represented retirement back home.

Oh, I do think it was all about Elizabeth feeling totally vulnerable and afraid Phillip preferred Martha to her. That's come up several times over the course of the show, her jealousy of Martha. It's subtle...I don't think she feels comfortable with or entitled to it. But I do think she feels it. Has Phillip really wanted to go back to the USSR? It seems to me that he's more felt comfortable with American society and may be losing his dedication to the cause. I didn't get that Elizabeth worried he'd want to run home to the USSR with Martha, but that she worried he'd want to leave her and run off with Martha. Why? Martha is everything Elizabeth isn't: nurturing, gentle, naive, kind, attentive, etc. And Elizabeth is super insecure emotionally. But she's exactly what Phillip wants, and as the anti-Martha, her character shows us why Phillip would NEVER prefer Martha. Elizabeth's passion, dedication, and aggression are what turn him on about her. That, and their long history, of course, which is what love is built on really. They seem pretty deeply connected to me: comrades in arms for sure, but very much equals, lovers, and partners too. He's none of that with Martha.

I wholeheartedly agree with Darren. To me, Phillip and Elizabeth seem to love each other very deeply. It radiates from them in a way it doesn't with other characters, even Gregory, honestly. I don't want a love sick Elizabeth either, and I don't think we'll get her; that's not who she is. But I do think that at her core, she's totally love sick and mainly in this now for the sake of her relationship and family. Phillip too. And that's inevitably going to affect how she behaves.

Edited May 1, 2016 by madam magpie

[Umbelina]

I wonder how forgiving of Martha people would be if Gene Craft or Chris Amador were their dad, friend, or brother?  Or if biological weapons were used in their neighborhood, because Martha's intel allowed the Soviet Union to develop them?  She's a sympathetic character, but she's still responsible for her actions, and she was much more prepared than most to resist this kind of con by her training and her oaths.

She's pathetic, but she's still guilty as hell.  If not for her Gene and Chris would be alive.  She didn't perform the murders but had she been a loyal member of the FBI or her country, neither would have happened.  Hell, the mail robot lady might still be alive too.  She made her choices, and she should pay for those choices.  S'all I'm sayin'.  :)

[dr pepper]

On 4/29/2016 at 5:39 AM, clanstarling said:

We referred to it as the USSR. I imagine within the USSR people referred to it in many ways. Regardless of the political structure, for most of them Russia was the motherland.

For those living in Russia, it was the motherland, but plenty of them didn't. And when the soviet characters are shown saying "Russia" in the subtitles, what they actually say is "Soyuz", "The Union".

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

I think many of us may be forgetting certain details about Martha's indoctrination and seduction.

I don't think anybody's actually forgetting anything about it. I mean, it's a given that it was a masterful, long process and when it started Martha was a diligent worker who would never have considered being a spy against the US. And that's not even getting into the brilliant creation that is Clark himself. A guy who was superficially nebbishy to give the impression he wasn't one of those bad boys Martha had fallen for before, yet he was also an animal in the sack and came with a whole forbidden romance story to appeal to exactly those bad boy preferences. Or the way he used that nebbishy persona to let Martha feel like the adventurous one and let her often not even need to be asked to do this stuff for him. He often made her feel like it was her idea.

Clark was definitely working her like a master. But all this stuff more just gives Martha reason to want to break the rules than changing the fact that she did. Even her occasional doubts about it--like when she suggested someone else in Clark's office work with her or when she got cold feet about the tape--she let them get brushed aside. 

As a character I don't think of her as just "a traitor." I know how she was manipulated. But ultimately the crime is the crime. And the fact that she chose Clark long after she was no longer doing small things wrong or after she could say it was only him doing something wrong, says she wasn't that committed to that part of it. Even Gene's death made her briefly horrified, but he soothed that by sharing some of his (real) regret about it.

45 minutes ago, Darren said:

Because, on the one hand, as an agent he's supposed to act like the love is real. But as a character, posing as another character, you also want to leave the audience with a sense that there's a difference. A tricky balance for sure. But there were times where I thought Rhys just played that a little too obviously. In fact, that's been my only complaint of pretty much any of the acting of the main players - which is so consistently excellent.

Sadly (for Martha) one way to fanwank this is that Philip must have seen early on just how little effort he had to put into the whole thing. Like if you remember that famous "Shoot yourself into me, Clark!" scene, Martha's really into it and Philip's just knowing what to do physically since she's not looking at them. In other sex scenes he's under the covers or checking the Kama Sutra book. The few times he really seemed honest with her he was more like Philip telling Martha how good she was.

I was thinking recently about the pilot and how Martha wasn't expected to be this longterm character. That's why Clark's wig is so ridiculous. I would bet somebody watching would expect it would be Anneleise--the beautiful woman with crazy dreams of running off with "Scott" with whom Philip barely wears a disguise--was going to be the fake romance to parallel Philip/Elizabeth. What a different show that would have been!

4 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

Oh, I do think it was all about Elizabeth feeling totally vulnerable and afraid Phillip preferred Martha to her. That's come up several times over the course of the show, her jealousy of Martha. It's subtle...I don't think she feels comfortable with or entitled to it. But I do think she feels it. Has Phillip really wanted to go back to the USSR? It seems to me that he's more felt comfortable with American society and may be losing his dedication to the cause.

Oh, I agree with all the instances when Elizabeth has been jealous, I just think it's too much/too simple to say she worried about him preferring Martha to her and that's it. (Although I think there have been moments when she was thinking exactly that.) This scene brought *both* Elizabeth's rivals together. All season Philip's been pushing them running back to Russia. The kids are American so Russia's not his top choice. But he wants to get out of the life and if the family is with him he's totally fine being in Russia. America's not the priority for Philip.

So I think the reason Elizabeth lays it out here in this scene in this way is it becomes not just about whether he prefers Martha as a wife to Elizabeth, though that can be part of it. It's also about the life Elizabeth represents. So as much as she's asking if Philip doesn't think he'd be happier with Martha because he's in love with her and she's a better wife, she's asking if he'd be happier without her (Elizabeth) in general. That's a pretty direct development from when she was giving him instructions to quit and stay in the US if she was dead. I think the real question she's wrestling with isn't just "Would Philip rather be with Martha?" (though that's part of it) but "Would Philip and my whole family be happier without me?" In this scene Martha is offering him exactly what Elizabeth isn't: a life where he's not a spy, and has a wife.

[madam magpie]

Oh for sure Elizabeth is asking if Phillip would be happier without her, and a life with Martha represents a simpler existence. But that's all Elizabeth's insecurity about her relationship with Phillip. I don't think it has anything to do with the USSR. I agree that her "if you want to go, I'll understand" came from a complicated emotional place, but I don't think it was born from a complicated emotion, if that makes sense. Elizabeth is uncomfortable with how she feels: about Phillip, about Paige, about herself as a mother vs. as a soldier, etc. But she feels all that conflict simply because she now loves all these things deeply: her husband, daughter, homeland. Her point-of-view over the course of the series looks to me to be going from fairly myopic to pretty broad, which makes it inherently complex. And that's happening because she's fallen in love with more than just the Soviet cause and because the different things she now loves are often in conflict. The solider in her is losing to the mother/wife/partner, and for someone like Elizabeth, I think that would be super unsettling and disturbing. So it comes out in this jealousy that, to me and to Phillip, is incomprehensible, but that to Elizabeth seems rational.

Also, I don't think I said that bit about the indoctrination and seduction...though I do think Elizabeth has been indoctrinated and I know the new forums are doing wonky things!

Edited May 1, 2016 by madam magpie

[sistermagpie]

6 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

Also, I don't think I said that bit about the indoctrination and seduction...though I do think Elizabeth has been indoctrinated and I know the new forums are doing wonky things!

Ugh! Yeah, that's me not having a handle on the new site. I think it stuck in a quote in the wrong place and I didn't realize I'd put somebody else's name on it by doing that. Or something.

But other than that--yes, I totally agree. I think I didn't understand where you were coming from on Elizabeth, but that is totally how I see it now that I get it. She really can't work out all the complicated things she's feeling, and she doesn't know where she really stands now that she has things she loves that conflict with each other--but she is aware that Martha makes her feel insecure and she fears he'd rather be with her.

You can see how much easier things were with Gregory. That relationship fit perfectly into her life. They were joined by their common passion for the cause, she could be swept away by the romance/passion but the two of them always agreed that nothing was more important than the cause. Plus she controlled when she saw Gregory. He had a special but limited place in her life. Philip, not only sees her in so many aspects of her life but he represents this love that's about her rather than the cause, even if he's sacrificed just as much for it. He's exactly the person to make her widen her perspective and acknowledge all these other things in her life that she wants and loves.

[madam magpie]

Magpies, unite!

You know, I don't actually think Elizabeth ever really loved Gregory. That always looked to me like one of those really passionate relationships you have in college where it's all about ideas and big dreams and sex. But then eventually, you get a little older and realize that the person doesn't actually see you; he just sees the big ideas. I think Phillip sees her, and like you say, he loves her for just her, not because of the ideas. I mean, I know she's kind of grown to be realizing that and to be falling in love with her husband and children, but she's stunted...it's TV...and sometimes people just really need lots and lots of life experience to get there. Sometimes they never do.

Edited May 1, 2016 by madam magpie

[dr pepper]

On 4/29/2016 at 7:08 PM, JennyMominFL said:

And then a whole lot of people in her small town die under mysterious circumstances?

Hmm, perhaps there's a folksy country doctor who's secretly experimenting with nerve agents that randomly cause ordinary people to turn murderous.

[dr pepper]

12 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Hell, I've broken up with men I loved simply because they bitched too much that I squeezed my toothpaste tube from the middle.  It's my damn toothpaste, I'll squeeze it anywhere I want to.  Maybe that's just me though...

Obviously, in your case, you would be the trap.

[Chaos Theory]

My guess when it came to the seduction of Martha the Jennings got their hands on personal files of a lot of FBI employees.   A lot of them were probably eliminated pretty quickly.  Too married,. Too self assured,. Dumped her last boyfriend for bitching about the tooth paste.  

You listen to Gaad, Stan and Aderholt talk about her you see why she was a prime target for a honey trap.   There is a reason why honey traps are used so often.  Hell Stan came thisclose to falling into one.

I am not saying I don't blame her or that she isn't responsible both directly and indirectly for ALOT of dead bodies.  I am saying I understand the kind of lonely that made her vulnerable.

Edited May 1, 2016 by Chaos Theory
Need to stop typing on my phone

[Anela]

12 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

My guess when it came to the seduction of Martha the Jennings got their hands on personal files of a lot of FBI employees.   A lot of them were probably eliminated pretty quickly.  Too married,. Too self assured,. Dumped her last boyfriend for bitching about the tooth paste.  

You listen to Gaad, Stan and Aderholt talk about her you see why she was a prime target for a honey trap.   There is a reason why honey traps are used so often.  Hell Stan came thisclose to falling into one.

I am not saying I don't blame her or that she isn't responsible both directly and indirectly for ALOT of dead bodies.  I am saying I understand the kind of lonely that made her vulnerable.

So do I. 

I was hoping to post something in a spoiler thread, but we only have one for speculation. My DVR gave a description for an upcoming episode, and I wanted to ask a question about it. I don't know if I should start a thread. (?)

Edited May 2, 2016 by Anela

[Umbelina]

There is a spoiler thread. 

Edited May 2, 2016 by Umbelina

[Anela]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

There is a spoiler thread. 

Thanks. I found it after I posted. I thought that was for casting news.

[Umbelina]

Yeah, it's a bad title for that thread.

[RedheadZombie]

On ‎4‎/‎29‎/‎2016 at 9:51 AM, RimaTheBirdGirl said:

And as others have noted -- Martha was at her most beautiful, when she was last seen crying, after Philip told her that no, he would never visit her in Russia.  And it was only then that she looked like the beautiful artist's sketch of her (or as the actress, Alison Wright, actually appears).  As if the make-up, lighting, & camera teams were only then allowing us to see the "real Martha."  Or maybe making sure we had full empathy for her, by making her beautiful.

I think Martha was at her prettiest an episode or two ago.  It was the scene where she's laying on her side in bed, gazing at Clark.  I've always been uncomfortable with the supposed belief that Martha is unattractive.  She has a lovely body, and I imagine many would prefer it over the extreme gauntness of Elizabeth.  I'm keeping this in the realm of Martha and Elizabeth, not the actors who portray them.  Elizabeth lands every man instantly, regardless of their age, and regardless of her disguise - and some of them, IMO, can be borderline homely.  I guess I'm just insulted by the cliché of a lonely and less attractive woman being easy prey.  Insecurity and desperation come in a full spectrum of faces, and many of them are attractive.

On ‎4‎/‎30‎/‎2016 at 9:10 PM, La Tortuga said:

Just chiming in to say it has been tickling me for two whole days now that this may well be the very first time I've ever heard Philip tell Elizabeth he loves her, and I've been wondering if it's actually the first time he's even said it to her in 22 years together.

As many have mentioned, I think it was Elizabeth who was the holdout.  In the first episode she pulled a knife on Philip for simply casually touching her.  And when he pointed out she was his wife, she challenged him.  He had been in love with her for years, and yet she only started to return the feeling in season one.  There's no way, IMO, that Philip would still be working for the KGB except for Elizabeth.  He wanted out years ago and it's literally killing him.  I thought last season's finale showed how clearly Elizabeth can be out of synch with her family.  Paige is in her room in a fetal position while Elizabeth thinks she's fine, and Phillip is borderline losing it and desperately attempting to communicate his real feelings - and Elizabeth cuts him off, and looks away from him and focuses in on Reagan on the TV. 

On ‎4‎/‎30‎/‎2016 at 4:52 PM, stagmania said:

It always surprises me when people say they don't think Elizabeth really loves Phillip. It's all over her face when she looks at him, and as mentioned above, I think she's shown it in her actions over and over again. I think her characterization as someone who puts her mission first and struggles mightily with expressing emotion throws people off. No, she's not good at telling Phillip how she feels about him verbally, but I really believe she's been trying. Her reaction to EST is a perfect example. Phillip getting caught up in a weird culty movement with a heavy focus on emotion is the kind of thing Elizabeth could easily judge and mock him for, but instead, she tries to understand, and she shows him respect by inviting him to share it with her. She wouldn't bother if she didn't care about him deeply. Ditto her attempts to be sensitive to his feelings for Martha and give him an "out". She wants him to be happy, even if that means being away from her or getting involved with people and things she can't understand. 

I also really like the two kittens from the same litter analogy mentioned above. Phillip and Elizabeth seem to have an understanding between them that I think it would be hard to achieve with anyone else, given how strange their lives and experiences have been, and they've made great strides over the course of the series to start understanding the differences between them as well. They also share a physical connection that's not just about sex. I often think of that tooth extraction scene from last season, the silence and intensity of it and the deep trust it demonstrated between them. To me, their connection has always seemed very deep.

I wouldn't say that Elizabeth doesn't love Philip, but I can understand moments of questioning their relationship.  I sometimes struggle with Elizabeth's coldness, which means I usually take Philip's side.  She was just so cold and unfair to him up to and including the start of the show, and placed his life in jeopardy every time she ratted his perceived lack of dedication out to their superiors.  I was bothered by her affair with Gregory, and the fact that she wasn't repulsed by his offer to abandon her kids and leave with him.  And sometimes I like to talk through these feelings in my posts, but there's a very strong and immediate reaction when anyone questions the Elizabeth/Philip relationship - especially if one dares to imply that Philip has feelings for Martha. 

But there have been some interesting changes in Elizabeth this season.  She's always been - well selfish isn't exactly the right word.  She's more like young children who aren't really selfish, they are just incapable of understanding how the world works outside of themselves.  And again this isn't the right word, but Elizabeth reminds me just a tad bit of a psychopath in the way that she looks at emotion happening, and seems to find it interesting, but can't identify with it.  Like when Philip was sharing his EST seminars, and she asked if he wanted her to accompany him.  She's such a tough nut to crack, and I like her except when I can't stand her.  Her absolute assurance that Paige needed to know "who she is", and her absolute refusal to even consider that this young girl will not see herself as a Russian living in an enemy country.  I always appreciated that Philip wanted their children to be happy, whatever that looks like, and Elizabeth simply wanted them to be good Russians, with no autonomy or self-idealization.

But struggling to understand why Philip likes EST, instead of immediately dismissing it as self-indulgent, and then telling Philip it would be okay if he left with Martha, is real growth for Elizabeth.  I see her trying to understand Philip, and instead of labelling him as weak, lacking, or disloyal, she's contemplating changing herself or giving him his freedom.  It's far more selfless than we've seen her be as a mother, and huge character growth.  I don't want her to change a great deal, because I do appreciate the singularity of the character.  And I like that she's the more militant and hardcore of the couple.

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

I guess I'm just insulted by the cliché of a lonely and less attractive woman being easy prey.  Insecurity and desperation come in a full spectrum of faces, and many of them are attractive.

I always thought it was interesting how people always described Martha as "desperate" and falling for Clark because he was a guy who actually looked at her when the actual story had Martha refusing to take back Amador because he cheated.

Martha was lonely, but not lonely because she was too homely to ever get a man's interest. And I agree--she's very attractive! Which I think is part of the point of that sketch, actually. That's from her landlord's description, and he finds her attractive. (I think Philip also finds her attractive, not just because of his "make it real" training but because he sees such good things in her.) I think the idea with Martha is that she always is shocked and thrilled by any male attention whatsoever is oversimplifying her character. To me it seems like she's just a specific person with dreams and desires that are sometimes in conflict with each other and lead her to the wrong guys. If she was the desperate woman she's sometimes described as I think she'd honestly be married with kids by now. Maybe still miserable, maybe divorced, but it's not like nobody would have had her. She might even have a husband who adored her.

But then, it's probably also important to note that Elizabeth's attractiveness often probably comes from stuff she's doing rather than just her looks. Philip honestly seems to be able to calibrate his hotness and look more or less attractive in different scenes.

2 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

But there have been some interesting changes in Elizabeth this season.  She's always been - well selfish isn't exactly the right word.  She's more like young children who aren't really selfish, they are just incapable of understanding how the world works outside of themselves. 

I've always thought that's very much what she's like. In the first season especially I really thought she was like this emotional planet with such heavy gravity everyone had to revolve around her. I don't think she means to do that, but when she has a feeling she lets people know it and can make things difficult for them. Paige pushes back because she's the same way, but Philip and Henry, I think, just adjust or withdraw.

Sometimes that gets reflected in the show as well. The season started with the first important flashback to Philip's life in Russia we've ever seen, but Elizabeth's past are going to ultimately dominate as usual.

Which I think even applies in this episode. Elizabeth is, on the one hand, being generous and selfless in telling Philip she has his blessing if he would rather be with Martha. But otoh, she's still kind of projecting her own feelings onto him. Still not quite hearing him when he's telling her how he's feeling. Often Philip has trouble articulating things but I think his feelings for Martha are so foreign to her and so personal to him in ways she still doesn't quite relate to that she doesn't get it.

[queenanne]

On April 30, 2016 at 2:05 PM, sistermagpie said:

Yeah, this is how I tend to see it. I don't dislike Martha as a character or really hold it against her what she did the way you sometimes do with characters that make you mad, but I do feel like she had more reason than most to not do any of this stuff and did it. For me I can even deal with her going with the original "I'm investigating the FBI" game as long as she wasn't telling him anything confidential (even though you're right she should have checked it out) but the second he gave he gave her that pen? That to me was the obvious point where if it were me, even if I'd been suckered up until that moment, I wouldn't have ever continued. I would have agreed to plant the pen, then gone to Gaad the next day, whispered "vault" and explained that I'd believed there was an investigation going on, but hadn't said anything classified, and now this guy was wanting me to plant a bug so let's check him out and if he's the spy he seems to be we'll ambush him at my place.

I especially thought of what you said about how she'd have been trained for this stuff. Sure there's a lot of points on the show where people wouldn't be on the lookout for spies--there's no reason for Stan to suspect the Jennings etc. But people who work in counterespionage don't see this as the stuff of movies. And every step Clark made with her happened after she'd given him reason to expect he could go further. She even had another great opportunity--albeit one that would have probably already meant jailtime for her--when the pen was discovered. Had she said to Walter Taffett "But it's your bug--your department. Clark Westerfeld planted it" and then had that checked out they would have caught Philip that same night. Instead her instinct was to make it about her and Clark and not tell.

But Clark understood all this too. That's why he gave her the pen after the proposal. He knew the effect of intimacy on her. He also tells her about Gene and shows vulnerability and intimacy about that before he gets her to start copying surveillance reports. It's kind of fascinating that iirc, he never even really threatened her or anything. Like some people have tried to add things like "She kept spying because he threatened her parents with death!" or something but he honestly never much went that way. I don't even remember him playing the "If you do this they'll kill ME" card. Though Elizabeth, tellingly, did that.

This is a masterful post for me because I 200% see Martha as having fallen victim to the “how do you cook frog’s legs?” dilemma.  “Of course a frog will jump right out of boiling water…”  You start them in cold, and warm them up.  The frog acclimatizes as the water boils, and by the time they figure it out, it’s too late. 

Martha wants to be Important with a capital I.  She doesn’t just want to be appreciated.  She wants to be Important to someone and have her input and opinions matter.  I can’t recall if she had suspicions of “Clark” by the time the mail robot issue and stealing files off of it came up, but that’s probably my mental turning point for Martha, the moment where she makes her decisions from pique and not patriotism.  “They’re not listening to meeeeeee…” 

In other issues, it's funny when Clark’s superintendent apparently describes Martha as a ravishing china doll to get to the sketch they wind up generating.  Not that Alison Wright isn’t attractive, but Martha spends a lot of relative time pulling faces.  You wouldn’t see perfect symmetrical serenity in her. 

My personal take on Philizabeth, is that Elizabeth spent the entire first season falling in love with Philip at last. to the point where post-gunshot recuperation, she’s actively been longing to see and be with him.  I also think they’d have a lot more in common and bond closer if they were allowed/allowing each other to bond about past life in Russia. 

I also feel like the Est is what has caused all the trouble and potential trouble with Philip wanting to be so open with Martha. 

[Chaos Theory]

I was rewatching season 1 and it is interesting to note that it was Martha who made the first move.  When "Clark" tried to turn her down nicely and get back to  questioning her about Gaad and the FBI she asked him why the had to always talk about work?  That's when they had sex for the first time.  It was half way through the first season.   Clark didn't intentionally seduce her.  I think he was surprised by the turn and went with it because it was after the sex that Martha volunteered to get him files from the office.  Up until then it was just "How was your day?  Anything interesting happen?"

Edited May 4, 2016 by Chaos Theory

[RedheadZombie]

2 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

I was rewatching season 1 and it is interesting to note that it was Martha who made the first move.  When "Clark" tried to turn her down nicely and get back to  questioning her about Gaad and the FBI she asked him why the had to always talk about work?  That's when they had sex for the first time.  It was half way through the first season.   Clark didn't intentionally seduce her.  I think he was surprised by the turn and went with it because it was after the sex that Martha volunteered to get him files from the office.  Up until then it was just "How was your day?  Anything interesting happen?"

It's been a while since I've seen season one, but (IMO) it feels like the writers have changed what they originally intended in the character of Martha.  First season, she seemed to be more comic relief, and she gave me the impression she was a more confident woman than they are now portraying.  As you said, she wasn't timid with Clark, she wanted him and she made a move.  She was also over Amador and made no bones about the fact that she wasn't interested.  Clark/Martha sex scenes were also comic relief, and the show made very sure to contrast them with the more emotional sex scenes of Philip/Elizabeth.

I think it's possible that the writers/show runners really liked Alison Wright and her chemistry with MR, so they expanded and even changed the role.  Martha became more insecure, and more timid, but she also became kinder and more loving.  I think it's also important to the main romance that there's always a potential foil, and there's nothing more insidious to a relationship than a partner who works closely with another, as KR's ex-husband discovered.

I think they may regret having Martha discovered, because she worked seamlessly in bridging the FBI scenes with Clark/Philip. 

[scartact]

3 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

I was rewatching season 1 and it is interesting to note that it was Martha who made the first move.  When "Clark" tried to turn her down nicely and get back to  questioning her about Gaad and the FBI she asked him why the had to always talk about work?  That's when they had sex for the first time.  It was half way through the first season.   Clark didn't intentionally seduce her.  I think he was surprised by the turn and went with it because it was after the sex that Martha volunteered to get him files from the office.  Up until then it was just "How was your day?  Anything interesting happen?"

I always thought part of the seduction of Martha was making it seem like everything that unfolded between her and Clark was her idea.

[mattie0808]

1 minute ago, scartact said:

I always thought part of the seduction of Martha was making it seem like everything that unfolded between her and Clark was her idea.

I totally agree with that. The only time Phillip didn't do that was when he proposed, but he was under the gun then and didn't have the luxury of continuing to let things play out at Martha's pace. Otherwise, I think he was doing everything he could to signal to her that he was interested, and that once she did make the move, he would reciprocate, while giving lip service to it being "wrong" or "risky" (which, honestly, probably just turned Martha on more for the forbidden or dangerous aspects of it, and that he would be willing to risk his job/career for her). It's really quite something to watch Phil be so very honest with her now, at this point the only thing he seems to have the stomach to lie to her about is Elizabeth (and telling her the truth about THAT would be just horrifyingly cruel).

[Chaos Theory]

30 minutes ago, scartact said:

I always thought part of the seduction of Martha was making it seem like everything that unfolded between her and Clark was her idea.

That is true to a certain extent.  It is true with every manipulation but Marriage was most definetly Martha's idea.   I think what made the relationship so interesting was that Martha drove as much of it as Clark/Philip did. 

[Umbelina]

5 hours ago, scartact said:

I always thought part of the seduction of Martha was making it seem like everything that unfolded between her and Clark was her idea.

Exactly.  There are many forms of seduction, and Philip is well trained in all of them.

[jjj]

29 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Exactly.  There are many forms of seduction, and Philip is well trained in all of them.

This was how they got Henry to "convince" the family they needed to go to  EPCOT *that weekend*, by leaving all the promotional materials around, then telling Paige, "guess what Henry suggested we do this weekend!  He dreamed it up all by himself!"  Same technique with Martha, early on. 

[paramitch]

On 4/28/2016 at 11:49 AM, Darren said:

I've been expecting that the one time when Martha would REALLY LOSE IT is when she realizes Clark's love isn't real.

I've actually been waiting for this moment as well. It's the one thing that has rung slightly false for me, that Martha never, ever simply explodes at Clark/Philip about what the heck he has done to her life.

On 4/28/2016 at 0:03 PM, mattie0808 said:

 thought I heard Phillip, when given the "If you *were* her husband" routine from Gabriel, give his first answer as "Rock Creek Park." Is that right? Phillip guessed right -- even if he was panicked and angry and frustrated and didn't really mean it and everyone ignored him -- right off the bat? He really is a very good judge of people, even when he personally is just coming completely unspooled.

SUCH a great catch! You're totally right. I went back and checked and about the 2:40 minute mark, here's the dialogue... it's interesting because it actually showed me how much we haven't seen of Martha and Clark -- and of course shows how well Philip does actually know her.

ELIZABETH: Any idea where she might have gone?
PHILIP: No.
GABRIEL: All right. Let's think. If you were her husband...
PHILIP: I don't know! Rock Creek Park... The Zoo? She likes watching the panda cubs... 
ELIZABETH: That's it?
PHILIP: We went to the tidal basin once to look at the cherry blossoms, she always talked about that. When she first moved to DC she lived near the Capitol, so downtown maybe? She goes to church at First Trinity. Uh, Foundry Branch, Capital Crescent Trail? We went ofr a picnic there once...?

Also, for some reason I found this conversation really oddly heartbreaking. Gabriel just quietly going, "If you were her husband..." and then Philip sort of turning on that inner persona... it's all so twisted.

On 4/28/2016 at 1:31 PM, madam magpie said:

I want them to get away with it. I consider them the flawed heroes of the story, and I definitely want them to win. How they manage that, what "winning" means, and their own ethical, physical, and emotional struggles to get there are what interest me. But I don't want to invest years in their story and then have them end up dead or in a federal prison at the end.

I want them to get away with it too, to a degree. Or I hope Philip does. I mean, Elizabeth's so much colder, and I also think she'd have a much harder time turning off that inner soldier of hers. Whereas I've always felt that, superb killer that he is, Philip hates what he does with every molecule of his being. I want him to escape all of this, preferably with his family intact.

On 4/28/2016 at 1:58 PM, Knuckles said:

Philip really destroyed a living human being. And his weapon of choice...to use her loneliness against her.. I really hope he faces karmic payback for his cruelty. Given how easily he and Elizabeth have killed in the past, there is something more cruel about this slow flaying of Martha. 

I don't hate Philip and I kind of pity him slightly here too (although not nearly as much as poor Martha). It's been interesting to watch the progression, because none of them expected the ruse to have to go this far. I don't think he ever set out to destroy this woman's hopes and dreams. And yet he undoubtedly did, and the outcome is impossibly sad.

On 4/28/2016 at 3:13 PM, millennium said:

What Philip did to Martha was worse than killing her.   He destroyed her.   He destroyed all her hopes, her future, he destroyed her family, he laid waste to her past (poignantly represented by Martha's photo album), he murdered her reputation as a good American, he crushed her soul.    

I agree. I don't think it was deliberate, and the irony is that the last several shifts in Clark/Martha have actually been because Philip was trying to keep her safe, but it's horrible.

I was so upset while the FBI was tearing apart Martha's little apartment. That was the most upsetting moment for me in the episode, oddly enough. I really care about my home and my things -- everything has a memory or a meaning for me, so watching them just callously tear her fragile little home (and life) apart, all while discussing her frailties and betrayals, as if she was no longer a person to them... it really brought home to me that Martha has lost EVERYTHING. No home. No belongings. No country. No job. No co-workers. No life. No money. And now... no husband.

The only thing that made me feel weirdly better was watching poor Gaad, who you could see both trying to focus on the absolute mess of his own life after this, but who nevertheless was sincerely upset at this betrayal by someone he genuinely liked and cared about. And I felt we saw that a bit with Stan too, actually.

On 4/28/2016 at 4:23 PM, zibnchy said:

I'm pretty sure I didn't breathe during that scene where Elizabeth meets Martha in the park. Elizabeth is straight up terrifying.

I absolutely thought Elizabeth was going to kill Martha there, 'saving' Philip from having to do so. The punch was so strange! Because Elizabeth was being both her best and worst self -- the soldier who efficiently shut Martha up by injuring her -- and the caring woman we know she can be (who I feel has always shown an odd tenderness toward Martha, as if they are sisters of a sort). Elizabeth could have gutted Martha so many times but she has been oddly sweet and warm with her thus far. It's incredibly strange but wonderfully written and acted.

On 4/29/2016 at 6:51 AM, RimaTheBirdGirl said:

And as others have noted -- Martha was at her most beautiful, when she was last seen crying, after Philip told her that no, he would never visit her in Russia.  And it was only then that she looked like the beautiful artist's sketch of her (or as the actress, Alison Wright, actually appears). 

I completely agree. I've always loved Martha's pointy little face, but she looked absolutely stunningly beautiful in that heartbreaking final shot with Philip. 

On 4/29/2016 at 7:18 AM, sistermagpie said:

Martha was already bugging the office when Philip played that tape. The tape put her back on track when she wavered over that, but she is the one who destroyed their trust, not the other way around. What has she done to earn them treating her kindly? She's betrayed them, put their agents at risk, Gene was killed to protect her. The minute she put that pen in Gaad's office she knew she'd betrayed them, even if she originally believed (or told herself she believed) that she was doing it for the CIA. And I think she liked betraying them not because she yet had heard a tape where it appeared them were having a misogynist, mean conversation about her, but because maybe she already felt like they felt that way about her and she loved that she was secretly a romantic heroine working against them with her hot lover.

I don't agree. First off, Clark worked Martha brilliantly by playing the majority of time on the polar opposite of this -- on Martha's commitment and patriotism. This went on well into their marriage. For the vast majority of her actions on Clark's behalf, she truly thought she was working on behalf of her government and to end corruption -- all the way through planting the pen. Only after that (and, tellingly, after she had already absolutely committed treason) did she learn the truth, and I felt like the writing and performances showed us a woman who was horrified at what she learned, and terrified of what to do (or not to do) next. Philip played very effectively on her fears at that point -- the spoken and deliberately manipulative fear that "Clark" would die if she didn't help him, and the unspoken fear of what might happen to her if she didn't cooperate.

She did not support what happened to Gene and had no idea that anyone else would die to save her like that. She was sick and horrified after she realized it -- and worst of all, it simply boxed her in that much more, to where she, sure, went ahead and made a few photocopies (I mean, at that point, what did it matter after everything else that had happened?). But I have never, ever felt like Martha 'liked' betraying the FBI or took it lightly, and the worst part of all this for me is that the FBI thinks she did all of this knowingly, when she really didn't. I have nothing but sympathy and sadness for Martha.

On 4/30/2016 at 10:17 AM, Midnight Cheese said:

I guess maybe I'm thrown by how, on reflection, Philip and Elizabeth seem to have nothing deep between them excepting Paige and Henry.  I'm not explaining it well but season over season, despite things like Philip making sure Elizabeth got to see her dying mother, I just feel like there's very little there at the deepest levels.  I absolutely do not think they are wildly in love, certainly not Elizabeth, and I can see that in other deeply repressed characters elevating loyalty to a different social construct (e.g., those in The Remains of the Day).

This is so interesting to me because the entire story of "The Americans" hinges, for me, on the revelation of the pilot episode -- that Elizabeth realizes that Philip, her fake husband really does love her (and after 15 years of faux marriage). The revelation of Philip's intense feelings and her shock and appreciation for those feelings has driven the entire show for me ever since. I definitely feel an incredible love and connection between the two of them, and felt like it was emphasized yet again here, in the lovely moment when Philip looked at her and said so fiercely, "I love you! I love you." The look on Elizabeth's face -- sort of stricken yet intensely moved -- was really beautiful. Keri Russell and Matthew Rhys are just sensational, but then I love the whole cast.

Last but not least: I know some have criticized Martha for her loneliness because, well, she had that chance with Chris from S1, or with Aderholt last season, but I thought Chris came across as pretty creepy and controlling, and I understood why she broke up with him. Just because Martha did have other date-able options doesn't mean that she wasn't still lonely -- and delighted to find Clark.

[Umbelina]

Martha wanted the fairy tale, and Philip (and Elizabeth and other spies from many countries for that matter) are trained to be someone's "perfect" love(r.)  Sexually, and emotionally, and any other way they want or need.  It's pretty hard to resist someone who spends that much time apparently concerned, interested, and helplessly in love with you.  (for some)

Also, a quote from one of my favorite books, the author is sketchy at times, but once in a while she writes so beautifully I could cry.  Susan Howatch, The Wheel Of Fortune.  "I could have stopped, but I went on." 

Martha was lead in slowly, a step, and act at a time.  She could have stopped, but she went on, because Philip seduced her into it, in every way possible, every single step of the way.

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, paramitch said:

I don't agree. First off, Clark worked Martha brilliantly by playing the majority of time on the polar opposite of this -- on Martha's commitment and patriotism. This went on well into their marriage.

Yeah, but then he wasn't playing on that. At that point you just can't say she was motivated by anything like patriotism. And even all along I think the bigger draw was the romance than the patriotism. (He even had to remind her of how much she wanted to make a difference when she wanted to move to another department.) In the beginning it was great that it was exciting *and* working for the good guys, but if she was so horrified at what she was doing, she would not just be horrified and then go on helping Clark. When the patriotism fantasy fell away she stuck with Clark and kept spying on the FBI. Her priorities had to become clear with her choices.

There was, I think, scenes that showed Martha thinking of herself as saving Clark--that became the heroic aspect of it for her after she knew she wasn't helping him be a hero for the DOJ. But threats to Martha herself were pretty minimal. It was just Clark saying he wanted to protect Martha, which was part of the romance. Clark was disobeying his bosses by loving her and wanted to protect her from any danger their work might have brought her (this part was ironically pretty true) and Martha was trying to protect him from getting hurt in his job. If Martha was terrified of what was going to be done by her by these shadowy people Clark worked for I think she'd have been more likely to go to the FBI.

2 hours ago, paramitch said:

She did not support what happened to Gene and had no idea that anyone else would die to save her like that. She was sick and horrified after she realized it -- and worst of all, it simply boxed her in that much more, to where she, sure, went ahead and made a few photocopies (I mean, at that point, what did it matter after everything else that had happened?). But I have never, ever felt like Martha 'liked' betraying the FBI or took it lightly, and the worst part of all this for me is that the FBI thinks she did all of this knowingly, when she really didn't. I have nothing but sympathy and sadness for Martha.

I have sympathy and sadness for her either, but I just can't see her at all as somebody who's motivated that much by patriotism or by being horrified or not supporting things like Gene's murder. When it came down to it, she was about the romance with Clark and she found ways for all of those things to play into that romance. That doesn't mean she was taking her betrayal of the FBI lightly. It just means she accepted it.  I don't think she was motivated by bitterness or wanting to stick it to the FBI or doing some petty revenge for them not seeming to respect her or whatever--that's not Martha. But I do think that in the beginning, when the pen was supposed to be for the DOJ, she did get confidence and satisfaction from being the one involved in this. At that level that was pretty innocent. I don't think she enjoyed any of that once she realized that she was in fact a mole. But in my recollection patriotism was mostly a motivation for her when it was attached to Clark, who was the ultimate priority.

[Roseanna]

On ‎1‎.‎5‎.‎2016 at 6:34 AM, Umbelina said:

I wonder how forgiving of Martha people would be if Gene Craft or Chris Amador were their dad, friend, or brother?  Or if biological weapons were used in their neighborhood, because Martha's intel allowed the Soviet Union to develop them?  She's a sympathetic character, but she's still responsible for her actions, and she was much more prepared than most to resist this kind of con by her training and her oaths.

She's pathetic, but she's still guilty as hell.  If not for her Gene and Chris would be alive.  She didn't perform the murders but had she been a loyal member of the FBI or her country, neither would have happened.  Hell, the mail robot lady might still be alive too.  She made her choices, and she should pay for those choices.  S'all I'm sayin'.  :)

So all Phillip did was Martha's fault? I think only in Gene's death she was unintentionally involved as Phillip had to save her by murdering him, but the mail robot lady was a collateral damage.

Before all, Chris Amador died because he sneaked around Martha's house in order to make sure if she had a new boy friend and when he discoved Clark, he started to pressure him to stay away from Martha which wasn't his business at all. He didn't die in service for his country but because of his own jealousy and stupidity.

It was Stan who murdered Vlad simply to revenge Chris, not knowing how he died, and it was Nina who couldn't forgive it which made her confess her treason.   

[Roseanna]

On ‎30‎.‎4‎.‎2016 at 8:17 PM, Midnight Cheese said:

I guess maybe I'm thrown by how, on reflection, Philip and Elizabeth seem to have nothing deep between them excepting Paige and Henry.  I'm not explaining it well but season over season, despite things like Philip making sure Elizabeth got to see her dying mother, I just feel like there's very little there at the deepest levels.  I absolutely do not think they are wildly in love, certainly not Elizabeth, and I can see that in other deeply repressed characters elevating loyalty to a different social construct (e.g., those in The Remains of the Day).

 

On ‎30‎.‎4‎.‎2016 at 9:05 PM, sistermagpie said:

Wow, that's so interesting how things can come across so differently. To me they seem really deeply connected. Almost not entirely even romantically. Early on a reviewer referred to them as being like two kittens from the same litter and I've always loved that analogy. Elizabeth, even, sometimes seems almost pathetically longing for this guy. Like when she pushed him away in S1 and was sniffing his laundry while he was gone? I really believe that. Though at the same time I think there's always a sense of her feeling like he's a stranger in some ways so she's kind of scared of him too, and she flips between really wanting him and being in that mode where she thinks she's the better officer of the pair and he needs to be ordered around.

 

On ‎30‎.‎4‎.‎2016 at 11:52 PM, stagmania said:

It always surprises me when people say they don't think Elizabeth really loves Phillip. It's all over her face when she looks at him, and as mentioned above, I think she's shown it in her actions over and over again. I think her characterization as someone who puts her mission first and struggles mightily with expressing emotion throws people off. No, she's not good at telling Phillip how she feels about him verbally, but I really believe she's been trying. Her reaction to EST is a perfect example. Phillip getting caught up in a weird culty movement with a heavy focus on emotion is the kind of thing Elizabeth could easily judge and mock him for, but instead, she tries to understand, and she shows him respect by inviting him to share it with her. She wouldn't bother if she didn't care about him deeply. Ditto her attempts to be sensitive to his feelings for Martha and give him an "out". She wants him to be happy, even if that means being away from her or getting involved with people and things she can't understand. 

I also really like the two kittens from the same litter analogy mentioned above. Phillip and Elizabeth seem to have an understanding between them that I think it would be hard to achieve with anyone else, given how strange their lives and experiences have been, and they've made great strides over the course of the series to start understanding the differences between them as well. They also share a physical connection that's not just about sex. I often think of that tooth extraction scene from last season, the silence and intensity of it and the deep trust it demonstrated between them. To me, their connection has always seemed very deep.

 

On ‎1‎.‎5‎.‎2016 at 1:37 AM, sistermagpie said:

It makes me think also of Paige saying "They're not you--they don't solve things by talking them out." Because it's not just that they're (or at least Philip) isn't a big talker (because Elizabeth sometimes can express herself quiet well) but that they often don't need to talk.

 

On ‎1‎.‎5‎.‎2016 at 5:34 AM, Darren said:

I'm honestly surprised that anyone actually believed Philip had romantic feelings for Martha. There's a reason why he said "Are you crazy!?" in reply to Elizabeth's question. Because he was never romantically interested in Martha.
- - -
Also, please remember, the whole setup on the show was to provide us the dramatic moment where Philip assures Elizabeth of how much he loves her. It was never meant - I would contend - to help clarify for the audience where his romantic feelings lay. It was merely a scene demonstrating a bonding moment in their marriage. That was the plot device there. Full stop.

And re: Elizabeth - again - I'm flabbergasted that anyone would think her feelings for Philip aren't genuine. Of COURSE she loves him. Everything in her facial expressions, body language, and - for Elizabeth - inconsistent actions as an agent of the KGB - suggest that she loves him - DEEPLY. Is it creating some inconsistency in her? Absolutely. Is she unsure of who she is sometimes now, as a result? Absolutely! But ever since the beginning of the show, when she broke off with Gregory and famously said to Philip, of the connection between the two of them: "I feel like it's happening now" - it's been all about their relationship. It's been all about their genuine, deep (and often complicated) love for each other in the midst of their crazy lives. The show-runners themselves have said that the show, really - at the end of the day - is a story about a marriage. Everything else serves that main plot point.

I also am fully convinced that P & E love each other and that the bond between them is very deep, in fact the most important thing in their lives.

I am a person who tends to believe not in words but in deeds. If somebody says you "I love you" but doesn't treat you well, it's not love.

On the other hand, even if a couple loves each other deeply, doesn't mean that there isn't disagreements and frustations, because they are different persons with different feelings and needs. Only a con person can act a role of an ideal lover who satisfies one's every dream.