S02.E13: The Tameness Of The Wolf

[phoenics]

Didn't we learn earlier in the season that Freda is Frank Gathers' daughter?

 

Yes - in the season premiere.  It's just that Cookie didn't know that she was.  Lucious knew (he taunted Frank with that), lol.

[Happytobehere]

Now to the more problematic part of the story. I don't know if I'm just really sensitive about racial politics in TV after that Sleepy Hollow finale, but I'm REALLY REALLY irritated at seeing Tiana pushed into the background for Laura, or seeing Hakeem proposing to Laura as though that will be the epic romance. It reeks of colorism. What - we only get one black woman romance on this show? It's a show with a diverse cast yes, but a predominantly black cast. It's sad when the only black/black romance is Cookie/Lucious. It feels like colorism to me - as though executives/writers thought Tiana wasn't marketable enough. Nothing against the actress who plays Laura - but the character is boring and honestly her portrayal of her is wooden and dull. And she's still a horrible performer. Salma Hayek wannabe.

On a predominantly black show, 2 of the straight sons on the show essentially devote themselves to women who aren't black. If this was a "mainstream" (you know what I mean) show, they wouldn't hook US up like that. I can't just ignore this in light of the racial landscape of tv and how black women are marginalized. Hakeem is no prize, but I'm still sick of seeing it. I have actually grown to like Rhonda right now (her hair and makeup this episode was really, really perfect), and Laura is nice enough (just boring as hell)... I'm just sick of the pervasive message that black girls/women don't get the epic love that is so continuously reinforced in our media. And with the black women they have - are any of them dark skinned who AREN'T complete stereotypes?  (Becky/Porsha)  On THIS show it doesn't have to be that way, but it's still steeped in colorism.

 

I also felt some kind of way seeing Rhonda over-represented in the Cover Girl Ad (they show her twice as opposed to all of the other black women only shown once). These things MATTER.

You at 150% correct with everything you have said. Colorism is a major issue in the entertainment industry and its on full display on Empire.

Man, it is messed up that Frank in a weird way gave Lucious his big break to sell drugs to get him off the streets and be able to ultimately earn the money to start Empire, but then Cookie goes down, years later ultimately snitches on Frank to get out so then he goes down, and then Lucious finally kills him in prison to protect Cookie with the parting shot that Lucious would 'take care' of his daughter in any way you want to interpret it. No good illegal deed goes unpunished?

However, since many people, myself included, believe that Lucius arranged for Cookie to go to jail, he did nothing for her. Killing Gathers takes the possibility of the truth coming out off the table for him, it also makes Cookie feel as if she owes Lucius when in actually, he is the one who screwed her over.

1) I think in this case Laura, Rhonda, and even Michael were cast as love interests simply because tptb thinks that non-black people won't watch a show with an all black cast. Since the family is black, the easy way to diversify the case is to have the love interests be nonblack. Now I think their thinking is just silly. People of all races watch this show for 1. Taraji and 2. Terrance. I don't think the boys' significant others matter, at all, to the audience but I think the tptb believed that they needed to add non-black characters to reach a broad audience and having the boys with non-black women and men was an easy way to do that.

But I totally agree there is a larger issue of colorism in Hollywood but I really think in empire's case the issue is more that the tptb want a diverse cast.

2) Does anyone remember that article asking why there weren't more Latinos in empire? Tptb responded by giving Hakeem two Latina love interests (Becky g and Laura), bringing Adam Rodriguez on for taraji in replace of Derek Luke, and bringing Michael back for Jamal.

1) the colorism/racism is absolutely reflected in the casting of the love interests. I will be shocked if they ever have any of the Lyons involved with someone of a darker hue, because the not too subtle message is they would somehow be lowering themselves with such a relationship. I personally don't think it's just a standard TPTB thing as I think Lee Daniels (as is the case with many dark-skinned hating black men) holds said views himself.

2) I remember that article and am still offended. Why would a show about a black family owe anything to the Latino or any other community. I wonder why people of other races feel so comfortable demanding that black people do something for them, yet when it comes time to bare a burden, the black community is left to do that alone. Having said that, I actually like Michael with Jamal, so bringing him back worked for me until they trashed the character.

[Dee]

I don't think Empire's has much of an issue with colorism, especially compared to most other shows currently on television.

 

Taraji has gone on record as specifically choosing Derek Luke as Cookie's love interest because she was aware of fans griping about colorism. And the main reason Adam Rodriguez was cast as another of Cookie's love interests is because he & Taraji had previously worked together. Tyrese, a dark skinned actor, is/was set to be cast as another of Cookie's love interests in future episodes for similar reasons.

 

Becky and J-Poppa are a solid, drama free couple. They may be way in the background, but the reality is that no other show on television would allow an actress of Gabourey Sidibe's shade and size to have an active, on-screen sex life, without being made the butt of jokes.

 

Empire's writers and producers may insist white latino Michael is Jamal's soulmate, but Jamal had no problem having a fling with Eka Darville's Ryan, who was as brownskinned as they come.

 

While Hakeem is in love with Laura (a latina), had a brief fling with Becky G (another latina), and has gotten lightskinned biracial Anika pregnant with his child, his two other love interests were/are medium toned (Tiana) or dark skinned (Camilla) Black women.

 

Though Andre's been committed to Rhonda since college, he was also quite receptive to dark skinned Jennifer Hudson's music therapist, Michelle in season 1.

 

It was said earlier this season that Cookie's sister Carol (a dark skinned Tasha Smith) carried a torch for Vernon (a dark skinned Malik Yoba).

 

And while Lucious hasn't romantically been paired with anything darker than a paper bag, he definitely flirted with Naomi's Camilla before he knew of her relationship to Hakeem and had definite unresolved sexual tension with Tyra Ferrell's Roxanne Ford.

Edited April 16, 2016 by Dee

[sarkygal]

I would love that for Andre because than he could really know that he isn't alone in his family, and that his illness really isn't his fault, and maybe he will be more stringent with taking his meds.

Andre has only been shown going off his meds for 1 breakdown. Rhonda has said a few times that he needs to re-calibrate his meds. Consider everything in the show's timeline can be assumed to be less than a year, using Cookie's 1st free birthday as a guide. Andre's been through enough to trigger a breakdown in anyone.  

 

Andre's slow transition is more realistic, IMO. Unlike that stupid show that had the lead flush her pills and have an episode 5 minutes later. I'm quite impressed that TPTB acknowledge that he would have had to re-calibrate his meds and that the level of pain/trauma/triggers happening in his current life are not consistent with optimal mental health, even while medicated. There's an awareness that he's not coping well, but Lucious' mom reveal on the heels of losing his child is a lot to bear, and TB is doing really well with the more subtle acting as well to show someone close to the edge.

[RCharter]

Andre has only been shown going off his meds for 1 breakdown. Rhonda has said a few times that he needs to re-calibrate his meds. Consider everything in the show's timeline can be assumed to be less than a year, using Cookie's 1st free birthday as a guide. Andre's been through enough to trigger a breakdown in anyone.  

 

Andre's slow transition is more realistic, IMO. Unlike that stupid show that had the lead flush her pills and have an episode 5 minutes later. I'm quite impressed that TPTB acknowledge that he would have had to re-calibrate his meds and that the level of pain/trauma/triggers happening in his current life are not consistent with optimal mental health, even while medicated. There's an awareness that he's not coping well, but Lucious' mom reveal on the heels of losing his child is a lot to bear, and TB is doing really well with the more subtle acting as well to show someone close to the edge.

We've seen Andre tell Rhonda that he isn't off his meds, but to me, it sort of seems like he is as he is getting increasingly paranoid and under the impression that religion is a good substitute for his medication.  Admittedly, I don't understand as much as those who have been through the same thing, but it sounded like he was trying to placate Rhonda.  

[RCharter]

You at 150% correct with everything you have said. Colorism is a major issue in the entertainment industry and its on full display on Empire.

However, since many people, myself included, believe that Lucius arranged for Cookie to go to jail, he did nothing for her. Killing Gathers takes the possibility of the truth coming out off the table for him, it also makes Cookie feel as if she owes Lucius when in actually, he is the one who screwed her over.

1) the colorism/racism is absolutely reflected in the casting of the love interests. I will be shocked if they ever have any of the Lyons involved with someone of a darker hue, because the not too subtle message is they would somehow be lowering themselves with such a relationship. I personally don't think it's just a standard TPTB thing as I think Lee Daniels (as is the case with many dark-skinned hating black men) holds said views himself.

 

 

 

I don't think Empire's has much of an issue with colorism, especially compared to most other shows currently on television.

 

Taraji has gone on record as specifically choosing Derek Luke as Cookie's love interest because she was aware of fans griping about colorism. And the main reason Adam Rodriguez was cast as another of Cookie's love interests is because he & Taraji had previously worked together. Tyrese, a dark skinned actor, is/was set to be cast as another of Cookie's love interests in future episodes for similar reasons.

 

Becky and J-Poppa are a solid, drama free couple. They may be way in the background, but the reality is that no other show on television would allow an actress of Gabourey Sidibe's shade and size to have an active, on-screen sex life, without being made the butt of jokes.

 

Empire's writers and producers may insist white latino Michael is Jamal's soulmate, but Jamal had no problem having a fling with Eka Darville's Ryan, who was as brownskinned as they come.

 

While Hakeem is in love with Laura (a latina), had a brief fling with Becky G (another latina), and has gotten lightskinned biracial Anika pregnant with his child, his two other love interests were/are medium toned (Tiana) or dark skinned (Camilla) Black women.

Though Andre's been committed to Rhonda since college, he was also quite receptive to dark skinned Jennifer Hudson's music therapist, Michelle in season 1.

 

It was said earlier this season that Cookie's sister Carol (a dark skinned Tasha Smith) carried a torch for Vernon (a dark skinned Malik Yoba).

 

And while Lucious hasn't romantically been paired with anything darker than a paper bag, he definitely flirted with Naomi's Camilla before he knew of her relationship to Hakeem and had definite unresolved sexual tension with Tyra Ferrell's Roxanne Ford.

I wanted to put both of these quotes together, because I have a thought about the two in conjunction.

 

I think that Happytobehere's point is well received, even though Dee brings up some good points too.  But really, how often do we see Becky and J-Poppa together?  Have they ever really been public?  I haven't seen much of them lately at all, except referenced by Jamal/Hakeem.  And even in that relationship, I remember thinking that to the outside observer that relationship could be more based on Becky's ability to get J-Poppa a career advantage more than anything else.

 

As for the point about Laura v. Tianna v. Becky G. v. Camilla....the thing that strikes me is that the women who were darker toned had to already been in a position of power or influence before they were "good enough" for Hakeem.  Tianna was already a big name with Empire, Camilla was already powerful in her own right.  Becky G/Laura, the girls that could pass the "paper bag test" were just up and comers, but yet, they were "good enough" for Hakeem.  It almost seems like a darker skinned woman isn't nearly "good enough" unless she is bringing something else to the table....but a lighter skinned woman is just so pretty and special that she doesn't need to bring any additional power/influence/talent to the table to be desirable enough to catch the eye of an up and coming mogul.

[Neurochick]

2) I remember that article and am still offended. Why would a show about a black family owe anything to the Latino or any other community. I wonder why people of other races feel so comfortable demanding that black people do something for them, yet when it comes time to bare a burden, the black community is left to do that alone. Having said that, I actually like Michael with Jamal, so bringing him back worked for me until they trashed the character.

 

 

I too was offended by this.  Why is it that black people have to do for other races, but other races don't have to do for black people?  That's my question.

 

Colorism doesn't just exist in Empire, it exists in other TV shows too.  It's more jarring in Empire because Empire is a show about a black family.  But as I said before, the issue with colorism is deeper because as I see it, it's about "fuckability" which is why colorism is more prevalent for women than men.  If male casting agents/directors/producers/show runners, think a lighter skinned woman is better looking than a darker skinned woman, that's the issue.

 

The problem is that when colorism is brought up in some spaces, some folks start saying things like, "you're just jealous/you don't like light skinned people/whatever." But to me (and I am about the same complexion as Andre), it speaks to a deeper issue, and that issue is the closer a person is to white, the more attractive they are.  

[SimoneS]

I am all for the handful of shows with pre-dominantly African American casts to reach and cast other minorities. I think opportunities should always be there for minorities who are typically marginalized in stereotypical Hollywood. However, I noticed that Eva Longoria's tv show, Telenovela has it own "brown paper bag" test for its Latino cast. Colorism needs to be confronted and smashed to pieces. 

[Neurochick]

I think for colorism to be smashed, racism would have to end as well as white supremacy, because to me, that's what colorism is about.  

 

Right now, the ideal, the standard is white; everybody closest to that ideal gets the cash and prizes; people will always say, "I like what I like."

 

How it ends is by normalizing.  For instance, you have a brown skinned black woman as a love interest on a hit show that is seen by millions week after week.  If you normalize something and people keep seeing it over and over again, they won't think it weird or strange.  Think of all the things we accept now, that decades ago were seen as strange or unusual.  

[RCharter]

I think for colorism to be smashed, racism would have to end as well as white supremacy, because to me, that's what colorism is about.  

 

Right now, the ideal, the standard is white; everybody closest to that ideal gets the cash and prizes; people will always say, "I like what I like."

 

How it ends is by normalizing.  For instance, you have a brown skinned black woman as a love interest on a hit show that is seen by millions week after week.  If you normalize something and people keep seeing it over and over again, they won't think it weird or strange.  Think of all the things we accept now, that decades ago were seen as strange or unusual.  

True, even now I think you are starting to see attitudes change about the attractiveness of black women.  Its a Promethean battle, but women like Kelly Rowland, Kerry Washington, and even the great Naomi Campbell and Lupita N'yong (spelling) are making it so that black women are seen as more "normal."  There is a long, long, long way to go but at least there is something.

[dirtypop90]

I wanted to put both of these quotes together, because I have a thought about the two in conjunction.

 

I think that Happytobehere's point is well received, even though Dee brings up some good points too.  But really, how often do we see Becky and J-Poppa together?  Have they ever really been public?  I haven't seen much of them lately at all, except referenced by Jamal/Hakeem.  And even in that relationship, I remember thinking that to the outside observer that relationship could be more based on Becky's ability to get J-Poppa a career advantage more than anything else.

 

As for the point about Laura v. Tianna v. Becky G. v. Camilla....the thing that strikes me is that the women who were darker toned had to already been in a position of power or influence before they were "good enough" for Hakeem.  Tianna was already a big name with Empire, Camilla was already powerful in her own right.  Becky G/Laura, the girls that could pass the "paper bag test" were just up and comers, but yet, they were "good enough" for Hakeem.  It almost seems like a darker skinned woman isn't nearly "good enough" unless she is bringing something else to the table....but a lighter skinned woman is just so pretty and special that she doesn't need to bring any additional power/influence/talent to the table to be desirable enough to catch the eye of an up and coming mogul.

 

My point was that Becky G/Laura wouldn't have even been brought on as love interests if tptb weren't trying to bring in more latinos in response to that article, which, for the record, I also took issues with for the reasons already stated by others. Hakeem's love interests in season one were two black women, one medium toned and the other dark.  Tiana and Naomi were always presented as desirable, and not just because of their careers. We didn't see how Naomi and Hakeem started (I don't think) but Hakeem was into tiana solely because she was hot. They had also replaced Michael with a black love interest for Jamal (the photographer) and taraji was with derek luke. Season 2 changes IMO were because of tptb' mistaken thinking that they needed to bring on more latinos. Cookie's new love interest, Adam Rodriguez's character, even came with a latino gang. Since these changes didn't bring in more viewers, those love interests are gone (Michael, Adam rodriguez and his gang) or on their way out (Laura IMO).

Edited April 17, 2016 by dirtypop90

[RCharter]

^^I hear you.  And I'm happy to see powerful and successful black women on TV.  I do think its an interesting question though as to whether a darker toned female love interest is only good enough if she brings something other than herself to the table.  She isn't quite desirable enough by just being beautiful.  Tianna was a successful artist, I think Camilla was either a model or a photographer or a clothes designer.  Jennifer Hudson's character was a good example of a darker toned woman who only brought herself to the table, but I never really saw her as anyone's love interest.

 

And while it doesn't matter, I don't think Laura or Becky G are anywhere in the ballpark in terms of physical beauty as Naomi freaking Campbell or Tianna (sorry for mixing character names/real names)

[LaChavalina]

I think that season finale is going to be "Who murdered Anika?" The truth has got to come out that she push Rhonda down those stairs and everyone will be out for blood.

 

I no longer believe Anika did it, especially not since they dropped that reminder this week that the house with the faulty alarm system was a gift from Luscious...

 

I thought Tiana was bisexual. Her and Hakeem both had side things going on, but Hakeem couldn't handle hers and so they broke up.

I actually thought she was gay, and that her interest in Hakeem was totally faked to advance her career. Based on this week, they want us to think there are some residual feelings there I guess.

Edited April 17, 2016 by LaChavalina

[dirtypop90]

 

 

I actually thought she was gay, and that her interest in Hakeem was totally faked to advance her career. Based on this week, they want us to think there are some residual feelings there I guess.

 

Actually, as another poster pointed out, last season, she told Hakeem that she didn't like the way things ended and wanted to get back together, and it was Hakeem who said he wanted to keep it professional. So I don't think this came out of nowhere. The problem is that we see very little tiana, so we really have no clue how's she feeling or what she's thinking. But I don't think it was ever said or indicated that she was only attracted to women.

[jhlipton]

Oh and Lucious is totally going to sleep with that reporter - just when Cookie walks in or something... whoops. But predictable.

Or is the reporter going to sleep with him???

 

On THIS show it doesn't have to be that way, but it's still steeped in colorism.

I think for colorism to be smashed, racism would have to end as well as white supremacy, because to me, that's what colorism is about.

True, even now I think you are starting to see attitudes change about the attractiveness of black women. Its a Promethean battle, but women like Kelly Rowland, Kerry Washington, and even the great Naomi Campbell and Lupita N'yong (spelling) are making it so that black women are seen as more "normal." There is a long, long, long way to go but at least there is something.

 

Replying in Small Talk.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Empire Lets Cookie Have A Happy Birthday
But only for a little bit.