S01.E11: St. Lucifer

[jhlipton]

That line actually raised another question for me: is Lucifer technically still an angel and therefore not allowed to kill humans either or did becoming the devil void that clause? And what would his punishment be considering he considers his pre-vacation job the worst already? He could be forced to wear shorts and brightly patterned t-shirts for eternity, but other than that...

 

He's driven people completely insane, and caused one man to kill himself (the biker).  So I think all bets are off for him.

[storyskip]

He's driven people completely insane, and caused one man to kill himself (the biker).  So I think all bets are off for him.

 

Not saying it won't come out that as "fallen" the rules are different, BUT.

 

Technically speaking (and it was another one of those quick, throw away lines) Lucifer didn't cause that man to kill himself.  That man was already primed towards self destruction because, like Carmen, he'd seen "true divinity" in the form of Luci's wings and was thus already suicidal due to being deprived of them.

 

So you could walk it back that Amenadiel is as much to blame for Mr. Jumper as Lucifer.

 

Driving mortals insane isn't the same as killing them. ;)

 

I've been wracking my brains but I honestly can't think of a single instance, even in the comics, where Lucifer has directly taken a mortal life.  Oh he threatened, made miserable and walked right up to the line (Elaine Belloc's foster dad I'm looking at you) but I can't think of a single mortal he killed.  Of course, he didn't have too, mortals were pretty far beneath him.

 

Immortals lives on the other hand ... he had a solid body count there.

[Ailianna]

He loves her, whether or not he even realizes it. The opposite of evil is love. 

 

There has been a lot of evil done in the name of love.  I don't think we can call them opposites at all.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

No Good Deed Of Lucifer's Goes Unpunished
Ol' Scratch gets a temporary hankering to do good, but he doesn't let it cramp his style. Instead, he uses his philanthropic urges as an excuse to add more names to the 'naughty' list for punishment.

[Lemuria]

 

Amenadiel/Michael

 

Did I miss something?  When was this said?  It hasn't struck me that way at all.  Not the least of which, there's never been any connection in any lore I've read between Michael and any other name (titles, yes), including Amenadiel. 

[storyskip]

Did I miss something?  When was this said?  It hasn't struck me that way at all.  Not the least of which, there's never been any connection in any lore I've read between Michael and any other name (titles, yes), including Amenadiel. 

 

The creative decision to combine the two comic characters of Michael and Amenadiel was directly discussed in an article DB Woodside gave to Dark Matters and ComicBookResources called "lucifers-woodside-spreads-his-wings-as-the-not-so-angelic-amenadiel"

 

Unfortunately the link just pulls up a blank page now. :(

 

But in other articles Woodside also talks about how Amenadiel is the "older brother" to Lucifer's "younger brother".  Since Lucifer is supposed to be second created behind only Michael ...

[vampdetective]

So Chloe makes Lucifer vulnerable, but in the pilot he was shot multiple times while lying on top of her to shield her, and wasn't harmed. And even before that, she was immune to his charms, so the vulnerability is not tied to Chloe's overall immunity to him. Does this mean going out of his way to save Chloe's life was the triggering event that makes him mortal when around her?

 

Another possibility is that although he can be injured when around her, he still appears to heal quickly. So practically speaking, as long as an injury doesn't cause instant death (like beheading, for example), Chloe's presence mostly means potential pain and temporary incapacitation.

 

So although we have a general explanation about the bounds of Lucifer's mortality, the details of how it works is still not clear. I can't tell if it's because there are still revelations to come, or because it's sloppy writing, and that vexes me.

 

As for why he is vulnerable around Chloe, I hope it's not because she's part supernatural -- I'd rather Chloe be human and not even more of a special snowflake. And I hope it's not just because he is emotionally vulnerable to her -- that's too wishy washy because it would imply that he will become physically vulnerable around any human that he becomes emotionally attached to. Which would results in Lucifer avoiding getting emotionally attached to anyone else (which limits his growth) or Lucifer spending even more screen time being mortal. I'd love for it to be God's doing, either as part of his plan for Lucifer's growth that Father Frank alluded to, or as an ironic way to mess with Lucifer, or maybe a bit of both.

 

I loved Maze and Amenadiel's interactions. Although she may be Lucifer's inside woman, I hope she doesn't tell Luci who's behind the goat thing and let that be her and Amenadiel's little secret. I'm not convinced that she isn't playing both sides. She won't allow Amenadiel to kill Lucifer outright, but she might still be down for more subtle ways of manipulating Lucifer back to hell. I didn't get the feeling that Maze only had sex with Amenadiel to get back in Lucifer's good graces. They also seemed to be two lonely people finding temporary solace in each other.

 

Not only does Lux seem open for anyone to wander in at anytime, but so does Lucifer's apartment. If Maze isn't going to screen who goes up to the penthouse -- she let in two people with guns -- then Luci really needs to install a keycard reader or some sort of security on the private elevator.

 

One question though - why was Dan not more disturbed about Lucifer having survived? The bullet holes in the shirt were clearly visible and there was not a speck of blood. And yet he just accepted that Lucifer was alive.

 

Dan seemed to be in a state of shock, and Lucifer took off quickly after telling him to have a drink or two. The next episode, after Dan has had time to digest what he saw, will hopefully be more telling.

 

1) Luci's devil face not working on Malcolm.  My theory is this is because Luci and Amenadiel are starting to 'switch places' and since Lucifer is no longer the "Lord of Hell" it doesn't carry the same weight. Second theory, since Malcolm had already been down to Hell it was a case of "been there, done that".

 

My theory is that Malcolm is already crazy and unhinged from the time spent in hell, so Luci's devil face isn't going to make him crazier.

 

The street preacher that Luci made into a believer returns in the next episode to cause trouble. So it seems that while the devil face drives people insane, the insanity will manifest in different ways depending on the person. Jimmy became incapacitated with insanity, whereas the street preacher (and Malcolm) are still somewhat functional.

 

As for Maze - I'm not sure about her plan either. Maybe she wants to get Amenadiel to Hell and then go with him since she doesn't like being on earth? She'd kill two birds with one stone - she'd get Lucifer revenge/get someone back into Hell and she would probably be back in Lucifer's good graces.

 

I don't think Maze just wants to go back to hell or else she could probably find a way back without Lucifer. She left hell with Lucifer and wants to go back with him. Lucifer's companionship in hell is what she really wants.

 

The wrong note from last night for me was her "vulnerability" statement to Luci. Sure, she showed up at Luci's place drunk for Dan-dumped-me sexual healing, but other than that-- I don't see much difference between her vulnerability with Dan or Trixie, and Luci... So where is her developing vulnerability with regard to him?

 

Chloe lets down her guard around him. He's honest and unfiltered around her, and she has become the same way around him. This not only means seriously discussing her feelings with him. She also feels free to tell him when he's being an asshole, leave him stranded at crime scenes, and show up drunk at his place. If she did things like that to Dan (or anyone else), it would get filed away to be brought up in future arguments as examples of mistakes she made or ways she has wronged him. With Lucifer, other than teasing her, he pretty much forgives and forgets with no strings attached.

 

When Lucifer tells Malcolm that he was duped and that Amenadiel couldn't kill him (or keep the other promises he made) I just can't help thinking ...

 

Luci says "angels aren't allowed to take a mortal life; Dad's rules".

 

So does that mean angels physically can't kill a mortal?  Like if they tried to stab a mortal the blade would bounce off?  OR does he mean that it's against the rules and to "break" that rule and kill a mortal would result in the angel falling?

 

I think it's just against God's rules not a physical thing. This would also explain angels killing humans in the Bible -- God sometimes makes an exception to the rule.

Edited April 15, 2016 by vampdetective

[Mojeaux]

Re Maze and Amendiel: Their chemistry was off the charts the first time we see them together. I think they got together for the sake of getting together. An enemies-as-lovers thing.

 

Lucifer's inside woman or whatever, I think that's something to tell Lucifer. Like she's going to tell him she's got a big fat crush on his brother?

[Bruinsfan]

I've been wracking my brains but I honestly can't think of a single instance, even in the comics, where Lucifer has directly taken a mortal life.  Oh he threatened, made miserable and walked right up to the line (Elaine Belloc's foster dad I'm looking at you) but I can't think of a single mortal he killed.  Of course, he didn't have too, mortals were pretty far beneath him.

In the comics

he killed the dreamers the Silk Man turned into demons to attack him and Mazikeen, and thousands of innocent bystanders in Tiananmen Square to short out the effect of Kuanyin's temple bell (though he probably saved everyone in East Asia from having their souls annihilated in the process). He also directly killed the "Adam" and "Eve" of his new creation, though arguably they weren't mortal.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Athena
added spoiler tags

[Lonesome Rhodes]

For me, this all centers around "choice."   God is showing Luci how much richer his existence can be if he chooses vulnerability (most especially in service of others)- and that there are real prices to be paid for such choices - they are not free.  Luci has already figured out the nothingness/emptiness and boredom of ruling all the evil he surveys.   Luci's core resentment is that God created him AND all the rules.  So, while he is enjoying this shiny new car for the moment, at some point he'll realize he is being manipulated by "Dad" and back he goes.  

 

Then again, the series is re-writing the rules all the time, so whatever.

 

I very much enjoyed the call back to Mel Brooks in High Anxiety with Luci's nightclub routine, which was marvelously well performed.  

 

So, if the Devil wears Prada, why was the Devil wearing Armani when he was shot?  Now that is an eternal question, is it not?

[CheshireCat]

Lonesome Rhodes, on 16 Apr 2016 - 04:08 AM, said:

For me, this all centers around "choice."   God is showing Luci how much richer his existence can be if he chooses vulnerability (most especially in service of others)- and that there are real prices to be paid for such choices - they are not free.  Luci has already figured out the nothingness/emptiness and boredom of ruling all the evil he surveys.   Luci's core resentment is that God created him AND all the rules.  So, while he is enjoying this shiny new car for the moment, at some point he'll realize he is being manipulated by "Dad" and back he goes.  

 

Then again, the series is re-writing the rules all the time, so whatever.

 

I very much enjoyed the call back to Mel Brooks in High Anxiety with Luci's nightclub routine, which was marvelously well performed.  

 

So, if the Devil wears Prada, why was the Devil wearing Armani when he was shot?  Now that is an eternal question, is it not?

 

It's not really Lucifer's fault though that he had to lead a life without vulnerability. That was Daddy's choice, too. Lucifer didn't really choose Hell and from what I understood, I'd say his problem is not that Daddy created the rules but that he condemned him to life in Hell, that Daddy doesn't seem to forgive him and that, as the Devil, he gets blamed for everything. It's what he has stated repeatedly, at least.

 

As for Prada and Armani - I think the Devil wears anything which is expensive (unless he wears nothing at all ;-))

[Mabinogia]

As for Prada and Armani - I think the Devil wears anything which is expensive (unless he wears nothing at all ;-))



Hehe, I know which one I would choose for him.

 

If anything I think Daddy is not at all happy with Luci making choices for himself since the only choice Luci has ever really made is to leave Hell, the job Daddy forced him to take. And I'm going to go out on a limb and say Amen's first real choice is to hire a hitman to kill her brother. Hmmm, maybe there is a reason Daddy didn't let his angelic sons make their own decisions. lol

[vampdetective]

As for Prada and Armani - I think the Devil wears anything which is expensive (unless he wears nothing at all ;-))

Well, he IS a man of wealth and taste...

I know nothing about men's fashion, but someone over on the Lucifer subreddit was wondering if it really was Armani because apparently that's an unusual choice for someone of Tom's height and build.

[Delphi]

Well, he IS a man of wealth and taste...

I know nothing about men's fashion, but someone over on the Lucifer subreddit was wondering if it really was Armani because apparently that's an unusual choice for someone of Tom's height and build.

https://www.instagram.com/shannabanana74/

That's the costumers instagram account. If you were curious I imagine you could message her and ask. I've reached out to a few designers over the years and they've always been glad to give some info.

[rainsmom]

I think it's just against God's rules not a physical thing. This would also explain angels killing humans in the Bible -- God sometimes makes an exception to the rule.

There's no prohibition against angels killing humans in the Bible. When God wanted to destroy cities, he sent angels, not demons. 

[LittleRed]

What about the coin that Lucifer gave to Malcolm?  Is it really a "subway token for the damned" that he was going to use to go back to Hell eventually?  I thought he never ever wanted to go back.  Isn't that why he burned his wings?

[CheshireCat]

LittleRed, on 18 Apr 2016 - 09:52 AM, said:

What about the coin that Lucifer gave to Malcolm?  Is it really a "subway token for the damned" that he was going to use to go back to Hell eventually?  I thought he never ever wanted to go back.  Isn't that why he burned his wings?

 

What I asked myself was why the Lord of Hell would need a token anyway. Shouldn't everyone in the Underworld do his bidding anyway since he's the ruler of the Underworld?

[LittleRed]

What I asked myself was why the Lord of Hell would need a token anyway. Shouldn't everyone in the Underworld do his bidding anyway since he's the ruler of the Underworld?

 

But he walked away from the job of "Ruler of the Underworld" five years ago.  Is anyone down there really required to do his bidding anymore? 

[CheshireCat]

LittleRed, on 18 Apr 2016 - 2:21 PM, said:

But he walked away from the job of "Ruler of the Underworld" five years ago.  Is anyone down there really required to do his bidding anymore? 

 

Since he still seems to be considered Lord of the Underworld, I would assume that when he shows up again, everyone would still see him as the Lord of the Underworld.  

[Bruinsfan]

According to the source material he was powerful enough to disintegrate anyone/anything else in Hell with a glance, so not obeying him really wasn't considered a viable option by anyone with a self-preservation instinct.