Gilligan's Islands - Overview of BCS and BB

[Umbelina]

Mod's if this doesn't work for you, or you want another title, please step in.  I thought we could use a thread not specific to episodes to talk about the obvious crossovers and settings of the show, also to compare the writing, acting, characters of both shows, since they not only share settings, but are sharing stories, and certainly actors, if not timelines.

 

I'll start it off with this post of mine, which I'm moving over from an episode thread.

 

Honestly, when they began talking about BCS, I expected less BB stuff, and was actually looking forward to that kind of show, for a while at least.  I did think Saul could anchor a show, and frankly I still do.

 

Do I love that the BB characters are there?  Yes, I do, especially Mike, even with the incredibly much older granddaughter (Hello!  That is weird, and are talking scenes with her really that important?  Anyway, decided not to care about that, but frankly, the actress is no prodigy, like Kiernan Shipka, so honestly I don't see why they didn't have her be in diapers, as she would be if they we honest with the timeline there.)

 

I mean, I get it, but I honestly wasn't expecting this show to be "Breaking Bad Lite."

 

As it turns out though, I'm glad they are there, simply because the writing for the non-Breaking Bad characters hasn't been compelling for me.  Chuck has excellent writing, he's been very well developed, but I don't WANT to watch him, or his story.  I just don't.  I feel like I got it the first two hundred times.  He's not even a "love to hate" character, for me at least.  Howard?  My feelings on Howard have been made perfectly clear, and I'd be entering dead-horse territory even starting that up again.  He's anything you want him to be, because the writers haven't told us shit about him, even though he's been on this show constantly.  I'm not disinterested in the whole "non BB" stuff because I only tuned in to see more Breaking Bad.  I'm disinterested because the writing is either repetitive, shallow, or simply annoying.

 

That isn't universally true, I liked Jimmy's assistant at the other firm, and wouldn't mind seeing him again.  Ditto the guy helping Chuck.  I am interested in Rebecca's, but possibly mostly because I'm hoping for something that hurts Chuck, and I already know the writers will write in in a way to make us sympathetic to Chuck, and to make Jimmy more "bad" but I honestly doubt I'll see it that way.  Although I will be wonderfully happy and cheer them on if they manage to surprise me there!

 

As it is though, the only thing I'm really interested in, as far as story, IS the Breaking Bad characters, not because I get to watch BB-lite, but because those characters are more interesting, more whole, and definitely less predictable than irritating Chuck, mustache twirling Howard, and downer Kim (even if she has a stupid "wild side.")  Kim is another borderline new character for me.  At times I enjoy her, but I kind of already know her "role" here, and that makes her far less interesting to me as a character.  Also, her voice really grates on me, especially when she's talking to Jimmy, it has that throaty/harsh/nasal/whiny quality that just isn't pleasant.

 

Anyway, the point of all of this is, I really didn't watch this show to see more of Breaking Bad.  I hoped it would be it's own, show more sides of Vince Gilligan's crew, show MORE from them.  Instead, they are looking like one-trick ponies to me.  Or maybe it feels like they are just lazy, like slugs swollen fat from eating too much of the success and accolades from Breaking Bad.  If you've ever seen a slug overeat, it's really fascinating.  They are too bloated to move, roll over on their backs, swollen more than twice their size, and they stay that way until that bite of dog food kibble has finally digested.

 

That's how they are feeling to me.  Like they really didn't put that much effort in, too swollen from previous "food" to give much of a shit about THIS show.  We get moments, great moments that aren't just about Mike and the BB crime scene people, but they are hidden away in masses of fat.  At this point, apparently they are about to make the jump to full on Saul, and that will probably be more BB stuff, but at least, especially with Mike now firmly established as co-lead.  I am still hopeful we get more Jimmy/Saul without the BB crew/stories though, and most definitely without the undefined Howard (shit or get off the pot there writers) and without the same-old same-old repetitive Chuck stuff.

 

As for Kim?  Do I really care about her?  Meh, kinda, but I already know what she's going to do.  Take mini walks on the wild side, but basically, nasally reprimand Saul/Jimmy.  I do hope for an interesting back story from her, if that "border" comment really was concealing something that is.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Umbelina

[Ronin Jackson]

I definitely have a different take. I don't think of the show as "Breaking Bad Lite" and I definitely think they've established a different tone that this story needs and done it well. There are BB crossovers, but honestly it makes sense. BB was about a chemistry teacher who enters the criminal underworld in ABQ. BCS is about a lawyer who is about to service the criminal underworld in ABQ. ABQ isn't a huge metropolis. The population was less than half a million during the BCS timeline and it just started to crack half a million by the time the BB timeline arrives. Honestly it's probably not entirely realistic that there would be such an sophisticated and imposing criminal scene in a relatively small city that would include figures like Gus Fring and the Salamanca family. But if we accept that as a conceit of this fictional world, and hell we got through all of Breaking Bad without having an issue with it so we should, it makes perfect sense that there would be crossover.

 

That all said, none of it has felt overboard and there is definitely a distinct tone and pace which is very different from the parent show. Breaking Bad often ended shows on some kind of jaw dropping twist, cliffhanger or intensely emotional twist.  I don't think many BCS episodes have ended on notes like that... maybe the pilot when we were re-introduced to Tuco. But other than that BCS tends to end on more subdued character notes. I like the BCS supporting cast more than you. Kim has grown on me a lot this season and I care more about Jimmy and Kim's relationship now that it's firmly established (I did not have an issue with the slow development of it, where they kind of withheld information about what their relationship was for most of the first season). Howard and Chuck are interesting and complicated quasi-villains. Nacho has been quite underutilized so far and I'm looking forward to him becoming more central to the story (Mando has to be one of the more invisible "main cast members" on any show).

 

I'd also like to note that Peter Gould probably doesn't get his name dropped enough in this forum. He's definitely a co-show runner on this show, and Vince Gilligan to date has only received credit other than Executive Producer on one episode to date... the pilot for which he was credited as co-writer and director. That's not to say he's not creatively involved-- he clearly is-- but no more so than Gould.

[scenario]

How you feel about Chuck is how I felt about Walter and Jesse the last year and a half of BB. I felt like screaming, yes, yes I get it, Walter is evil and Jesse is a fool. It felt so repetitive to me that watching the last year and a half felt more like a obligation to a show I used to like than something I really wanted to watch. I stopped watching with a about half a year left for about 6 months. I watched the last 6 or 8 episodes in one sitting because I wanted to see the whole series. 

 

I'm one of the people who fast forwards through the boring action scenes to get to the much more interesting talking scenes. I loved the first couple of seasons of BB. The white family was so very, very white there were scenes that I couldn't stop laughing. They were such a walking stereotype that they were a parody of really really white people

How you feel about Chuck is how I felt about Walter and Jesse the last year and a half of BB. I felt like screaming, yes, yes I get it, Walter is evil and Jesse is a fool. It felt so repetitive to me that watching the last year and a half felt more like a obligation to a show I used to like than something I really wanted to watch. I stopped watching with a about half a year left for about 6 months. I watched the last 6 or 8 episodes in one sitting because I wanted to see the whole series. 

 

I'm one of the people who fast forwards through the boring action scenes to get to the much more interesting talking scenes. I loved the first couple of seasons of BB. The white family was so very, very white there were scenes that I couldn't stop laughing. They were such a walking stereotype that they were a parody of really really white people

[Umbelina]

I don't think what I was looking for was "action" though. 

 

I just like complicated characters that don't bore me.  For example, another favorite show was/is Mad Men, a show with very little "action" and certainly no shoot 'em ups.  I liked the characters, even the very minor ones, because they felt real, and whole, and as if they had lives of their own, and didn't simply exist to move Don's story forward.  It's not about being pleasant, it's about being interesting.  It's not about time on screen either, it's about the care and attention to small little details, that give interest and curiosity to the whole created world of the writer/producer/actor s.  I've called the non BB-characters on BCS "plot points" or "plot driven" because that's what they feel like to me, just characters to turn Jimmy into Saul, and not much (if any, Howard) more depth than that.  Of course Chuck has depth, because God knows he's had enough mind numbing scenes that his story, boring as it is, is very clear.

 

I think I expected a much different show, a show that didn't NEED the BB stories to be interesting.  Of course I thought (and looked forward to) the inevitable cross-overs, because, as you say, the city isn't that big, and we already know Saul's criminal law practice, and that "he knew a guy."
 

Basically, my disappointment in this one, and believe me when I say, I am hoping they make a great show here, is that the non-BB characters just aren't compelling me to watch.  I wanted them to, I expected them to, and I have hopes they WILL, but so far?  Not really.  We've had some good moments, but overall, would I be watching this if not for BB?  I'm really not sure.  The first season was good to OK, not great, but better than a lot that's on television, and the boffo moments made it worth it.

 

This season though?  Maybe it is just the sophomore slump, and I've really enjoyed the past few episodes much more than the rest of the season, but basically, it just feels like they are (boringly) hammering home points already made, several times.  Now it appears to be heading mostly to "BB lite" territory, and back to the familiar, crime and danger and Jimmy/Saul wheeling and dealing, and while that will probably be great fun, I don't know, it does feel more like a prequel than a show that stands on it's own. 

 

That's fine.  I think it can work, if they regroup a bit and put their hearts and minds into it a bit more.  Still, it doesn't show much creativity, they seem to be saddling up the same horse they've already expertly written.  I expected them, and that's probably on me, to find a new horse, or at least buy a new saddle.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Umbelina

[scenario]

Once it gets to Saul being Saul, how can it not be similar to BB? I understand the idea that the new characters in BCS are repetitive, but that's how I felt about the characters in BB after a while. I didn't watch BB until it was already done. After the first year I was fed up with Jesse. I was just waiting for the scene when they would finally kill him off. How can someone act so foolishly over and over again and not get himself killed with the people he was working with. I felt about Jesse the same way you felt about Chuck. His purpose was to make mistakes and whine, over and over and over again. 

 

There are some things that are naturally repetitive. Chuck is Chuck. He is going to act the same way because that's how he is. Jimmy's the same way. Does he ever learn from his mistakes? 

[Umbelina]

<snip>

 

I'm one of the people who fast forwards through the boring action scenes to get to the much more interesting talking scenes. I loved the first couple of seasons of BB. The white family was so very, very white there were scenes that I couldn't stop laughing. They were such a walking stereotype that they were a parody of really really white people

Ha!  Me too sometimes, but tell me you didn't love the scramble they had with Krazy 8 and Emilio when Walt cooked up poison to escape and stay alive in the desert!  Which, by the way, lead to some great "talking" scenes between Jesse and Walt and Krazy 8, since he was inconveniently not dead and had to be murdered!  The bathtub breaking through the ceiling?  Walt in his tighty whitys and his gun in the desert? 

 

Usually "action" on that show lead to some wonderful talking scenes. 

Once it gets to Saul being Saul, how can it not be similar to BB? I understand the idea that the new characters in BCS are repetitive, but that's how I felt about the characters in BB after a while. I didn't watch BB until it was already done. After the first year I was fed up with Jesse. I was just waiting for the scene when they would finally kill him off. How can someone act so foolishly over and over again and not get himself killed with the people he was working with. I felt about Jesse the same way you felt about Chuck. His purpose was to make mistakes and whine, over and over and over again. 

 

There are some things that are naturally repetitive. Chuck is Chuck. He is going to act the same way because that's how he is. Jimmy's the same way. Does he ever learn from his mistakes? 

Jesse changed though, Chuck doesn't.  He keeps up with the same old same old, I had hope when he exited the house in the first season, but his sole goal in life seems to be "being the better son" and to do that means he must keep Jimmy down, which is fine, but again, been there, done that, bought the T shirt, move on.

 

For me it's not about disliking Chuck (some characters are fun to hate) but it's about being bored senseless by him. 

Edited April 5, 2016 by Umbelina

[SignGuy77]

Suggesting title edit: "Gilligan's Islands - Overview of BCS and BB."

 

And I didn't just suggest the above for the obvious pun. To me, the callbacks and easter eggs that pop up during Better Call Saul are like little islands in the grand "stream" of the story. So far, Saul is swimming in his own current, and to a large degree so is Mike. Their narratives intertwine when they need to: it doesn't feel forced. We can go an episode without them interacting, knowing that even when we reach the story lines of Breaking Bad these two fellows will still essentially be independent of each other, but with a somewhat symbiotic criminal relationship, always able to call in a favour in a pinch.

 

ABQ has long since become my favourite ever non-fictional setting for a fictional show. We don't need to rehash how it almost didn't happen, but I'm so glad it did. All these locales - the epic and the mundane: the desert vistas and diner windows, the ice cream parlours, furniture stores, late night hot dog stands and copy places ... they feel so much bigger and real for being small time. And all those key names and phrases, so idiosyncratic and instantly recognizable: Davis and Main, Schraderbrau, Sandpiper, Tampico, Playuh, To'hajiilee, Salamanca. Little islands all. Little places around which the plot of this one of a kind story meanders.

[scenario]

Jesse was a teenager and Chuck's a guy in his 50's. Jesse's in a situation where he could die if he didn't change. Chucks at the top he has no need to change. Jesse's at the bottom. Jesse should have been dead long before he got a chance to change.

 

I only watched BB once and the longer the show went on the less I remember of it. I remember the bathtub but I really do not remember either of the other scenes you talked about. I enjoyed BB for the most part but after the first year or two it was one of those show I tended to forget 5 minutes after watching it. 

[Umbelina]

I can't change the title, but if the mod's have a better one, that's fine with me.  I don't like starting threads, but someone in the pinned thread suggested something like this for the cross-over talk, and I thought it was a good idea, but also to include more in depth analysis of what is turning into one overall show.

 

I love the unmistakable cinematography of this crew, just stunning, from Jimmy standing by the flag on the building, to the fantastic desert scenes, to the quick day-to night montages, and certainly how well crafted the border scene was on last night's show.  So much wonderfulness there.

[ShellSeeker]

Suggesting title edit: "Gilligan's Islands - Overview of BCS and BB."

 

We have a winner! I will change the thread name. I like having this topic for where people can discuss BCS and BB and how they intersect, relate, and so on. Some of the threads this season have been quite BB heavy. Going forward I'll direct that discussion here. Thanks for setting this up, Umbelina.

[ShadowFacts]

 

ABQ has long since become my favourite ever non-fictional setting for a fictional show.

 

It is in a tie for first place for me with Portland on Grimm.  They are both beautiful daytime and nighttime settings, and the shows have done beautiful things with photography.

 

On another note, I was thinking about what I see as a big similar flaw in Walt and Mike.  They both want to make a large financial provision for their families.  In the process they put those families in great danger.  But something else -- they make money a proxy for their presence.  Walt is a little different inasmuch as his time is very limited.  But his son ends up hating him, which may or may not soften over time.  As for Mike, just look at how sweet his relationship with Kaylee is. He is nurturing with her and she loves it.  How much better for her to have that paternal presence for a long part of her childhood/teen years.  So much more important than the cash that she doesn't even end up getting.  Tragic. 

[Umbelina]

The subject of people hating Skylar just came up in another thread.  Several people also dislike the Kim character.

 

I'm wondering, is it more about the writers not writing well for women, or is it, as one poster suggested, that both women try to thwart the male lead's plans?

[shapeshifter]

The subject of people hating Skylar just came up in another thread.  Several people also dislike the Kim character.

 

I'm wondering, is it more about the writers not writing well for women, or is it, as one poster suggested, that both women try to thwart the male lead's plans?

I think the two are parts of one whole: The writers have the women thwarting the men's plans.

[SignGuy77]

That, or y'all just sexist.

[Umbelina]

I never hated Skylar, and watched it all in one big sitting, so I had no idea others did.  Maybe if I'd watched episode by episode week after week, and been on message boards I might have, but kind of doubt it.  I was kind of fascinated by her actually, and her sister.

 

Kim?  She's had a couple of very good episodes recently (though not stellar.)  I think she can look stunning and beautiful or worn out an old, a quality I like.  Her voice just grates on me when she gets into that nasal whiny tone though, and those scenes are mostly with Jimmy.  She's much more tolerable at the office.  With Kim, it might be that it's a little hard to be invested in her, since I already know she's not around in a few years.  Or hell, maybe she is, and we just didn't see that on BB? 

 

I don't understand some of her decisions, but maybe that will be revealed, and I'm probably one of the few who didn't much care for her in those conning scenes, I didn't hate them, just wasn't "wow!  fun!"

[shapeshifter]

I think the two are parts of one whole: The writers have the women thwarting the men's plans.

That, or y'all just sexist.

One and the same.

[TVFan17]

We have a winner! I will change the thread name. I like having this topic for where people can discuss BCS and BB and how they intersect, relate, and so on. Some of the threads this season have been quite BB heavy. Going forward I'll direct that discussion here. Thanks for setting this up, Umbelina.

 

Haven't those threads been BB heavy because BB references and Easter eggs keep coming up in the episodes that are being discussed?  We've got a thread for BCS talk without BB references (which no one ever wants to post in), so if this is the thread to talk about how BB works its way into BCS via various callbacks and what not, then are the individual episode threads now going to be non-BB threads too? 

 

I just get confused with all of the different threads and offshoot threads that pop up, and sometimes don't know where to post what!  Lol.

[rollerblade]

I think this acts as an umbrella thread talking about everything that intertwined in the BB/BCS world, while the individual episode threads focuses on that particular episode. It's kinda tough to adhere strictly because some of the subplots span over several episodes.

 

For example, this season's first two episodes focused mainly on that idiot Pryce, and he did not appear for the remaining episodes... so we would not be having discussions about Pryce in episodes 'Rebecca' or 'Inflatable'.

 

That's my take on the purpose of this thread anyway.

[Umbelina]

Haven't those threads been BB heavy because BB references and Easter eggs keep coming up in the episodes that are being discussed?  We've got a thread for BCS talk without BB references (which no one ever wants to post in), so if this is the thread to talk about how BB works its way into BCS via various callbacks and what not, then are the individual episode threads now going to be non-BB threads too? 

 

I just get confused with all of the different threads and offshoot threads that pop up, and sometimes don't know where to post what!  Lol.

No.

 

It doesn't change anything else on the board. 

 

It's simply a thread to talk, in general, about the two shows Vince made with ABQ as the background, overall themes, or as I said in the first post:

I thought we could use a thread not specific to episodes to talk about the obvious crossovers and settings of the show, also to compare the writing, acting, characters of both shows, since they not only share settings, but are sharing stories, and certainly actors, if not timelines.

 

Easter eggs will still be mentioned in the episode threads, for example, The Dog House. 

 

However, things like comparing Skylar and Kim, or show quality, or Mike and Walt, or settings, camera work, and in depth talk about recurring themes that after brief mentions really have very little to do with the episode thread can be continued here.  For example, there was a huge discussion, completely understandable that took place comparing Walt and Mike and about which one had more justification for becoming a criminal.  That had nothing to do with the episode (beyond the Mike part) but it was a good conversation.  There was another about character development, which ended up being about Howard and Jesse.

 

This thread is a place to have those kind of conversations without derailing episode threads.  At least, that's what I thought when I made it, after a suggestion in the pinned post.

[TVFan17]

It was mainly Queasy-bo's comment -- "I like having this topic for where people can discuss BCS and BB and how they intersect, relate, and so on. Some of the threads this season have been quite BB heavy. Going forward I'll direct that discussion here" -- that I was trying to make sure I understood, in terms of how much BB is allowed in the episode threads, because the BB characters, Easter eggs and callbacks do trigger discussion in those threads. 

 

I wasn't involved in the Skyler vs. Kim or Mike vs. Walt chats, so I know nothing of those!  Lol.

Edited April 9, 2016 by Sherry67

[Ohwell]

It was mainly Queasy-bo's comment -- "I like having this topic for where people can discuss BCS and BB and how they intersect, relate, and so on. Some of the threads this season have been quite BB heavy. Going forward I'll direct that discussion here" -- that I was trying to make sure I understood, in terms of how much BB is allowed in the episode threads, because the BB characters, Easter eggs and callback do trigger discussion in those threads. 

Yeah, I sent Queasy-bo a PM because I was confused about that, too.  It will be interesting to see where the line is drawn because I don't want to be stifled if I want to discuss some BB-related stuff in the BCS threads (not the BCS Only thread).

[ShellSeeker]

Like I told Ohwell, it's not cut and dried, since the 2 shows are so closely intertwined. If VG made BB and then another show about, say, quilters in Maine, with no character crossovers, it would be pretty easy to keep everything separate. My comment about the BB-heavy thread was about the discussion that started out as being a comparison of Mike and Walt, but then became almost exclusively about Walt. Technically, that did not relate to the episode. It's a natural progression of the discussion, but it did get a bit off-topic.

 

As mods we try not to be too heavy-handed, and try to only step in when we feel the conversation needs to be nudged back on topic, or needs to move on. We'll all try to do the best we can, while understanding that there are definitely some gray areas.

[TVFan17]

I can understand the mod thing, Queasy-bo!  I'm a mod on a different kind of forum (not TV-related, for the most part) and I know that it can be tricky trying to not over-moderate or under-moderate, as well as dealing with all of the 'housekeeping' issues, leading discussions and answering questions, occasionally dealing with problematic people and so on!

[SignGuy77]

With the imminent arrival of Gus Fring in Mike's life, and the poop seemingly ready to hit the fan for Jimmy and Kim, I had been thinking about our two male protagonists and their evolving (or devolving?) relationship.

Their distinct lack of shared screen time this season (save for a couple of scenes) can't be all that coincidental, but I've noticed it as a source of puzzlement to some non-BB viewers. Season one's Kettleman caper certainly seemed to hint at a second season full of shady collaborations, but instead the two hit the ground running on completely different tracks. The hilarious cobbler episode and Mike's short-but-essential change of testimony scene are really the only meaningful intersections between them.

We know there will be more Mike-Jimmy/Saul interaction. But, at the same time, we can expect it to be as infrequent as ever. Especially when the Chicken Man enters stage left and Mike finds the steady, high paying dirty work he needs.

[ByTor]

Jesse was a teenager and Chuck's a guy in his 50's. Jesse's in a situation where he could die if he didn't change. Chucks at the top he has no need to change. Jesse's at the bottom. Jesse should have been dead long before he got a chance to change.

Jesse also had 5 seasons to change, Chuck barely 2. By this time in BB, Jesse didn't experience much change himself.

The subject of people hating Skylar just came up in another thread.

I couldn't stand Skyler, yet I loved her...she's not someone I'd be able to stand in real life (truth be told with the exception of Huell I wouldn't be able to stand ANY of them in real life!), but for the show I thought the character (as well as AG's performances) was phenomenal.

[SignGuy77]

Hey guys! Remember Walt's Brock Gambit from season four of BB? Of course you do.

That first shot of the elementary school last night, with Jimmy stalking just outside in his Esteem. Anyone else's train of thought jump right onto that track? The whole who visited Brock? Was it at school? Was it Saul?

I tells ya: even the subtle allusions scream out for attention on this show.

Also loved the Abbey Road reference; for the record.

Edited April 12, 2016 by SignGuy77

[shapeshifter]

Also loved the Abbey Road reference; for the record.

Glad I'm not the only one who made that connection.

[qtpye]

The subject of people hating Skylar just came up in another thread.

 

 

You know I have a theory, that people dislike Skylar because Gilligan wanted them to dislike Skylar.  At the beginning, we have to look at Walt as being very sympathetic, even if we do not agree with his choices.  If Skylar is shown as being a wonderful person that we love, then this makes everything Walt does seem worse.  If she is an annoying shrew, then we do not feel so bad.

 

I say this because I know Gilligan can write sympathetic and nuanced female characters.  I am loving Kim (I know I might be in the minority on that one) and heck I even started to like crazy ass Lydia in the original BB.

 

What Gilligan did not expect was the level of vitriol that the fans actually started hating the actress playing the character.

 

It was weird.  At the beginning of BB, I did not like Jessie very much.  However, I would never let my Jessie hate (or love) affect the way I feel about Aaron Paul, except to express my admiration for his acting skill.

[SignGuy77]

The higher than normal levels of Skyler hate can be attributed to the simple reality that the Internet (where most discussions originate) is filled to the brim with sexist males.

Yes, Skyler has faults, and yes we can question her motives throughout the series (ditto, Kim in BCS), but everything she did wrong was always magnified through the aforementioned mysogenistic lens.

[Umbelina]

As I said before, I never hated Skylar, wasn't on message boards about BB, since I didn't watch it.  I tuned in to one episode because of the overwhelming buzz about the show, and unfortunately for me, that was the train heist episode, which confirmed (to me, at that point) that I absolutely did not want to watch this show.

 

Then AMC did the marathon, and I caught it from the beginning.  I ended up staying up all night a few nights in a row, but had missed some episodes.  Luckily, a local place had a 2-for-1 sale on the DVD's of the show, and I bought them all and fell in love with the show.  I still hated that train episode though, ha.

 

There were times Skylar irritated me, but there were times they all irritated me.  The characters were so richly drawn though, and Skylar's arc was simply breathtaking as a whole. 

 

Maybe there is something to be said for a marathon watch?

[SignGuy77]

First time we see Saul in action on BB, he mistakenly identifies Badger as a public masturbator, then chalks it up to a "simple transpositional error."

That same episode we see the full Saul commercial: a much less nuanced piece of work than what Jimmy and the Kid Kubric Krew are filming. One might wonder about the low production values, but upon closer inspection it seems Mr Goodman has expertly narrowed his demographic.

[Captanne]

I'm marathoning BB right now and, yes, there is something to be said for it!!  (Up to S5,E8.  Almost done!)

 

One thing I noticed is that the diner (and Fran!) is almost indistinguishable between BCS and BB.  It's so identical that last night, as I watched BCS "Nailed" where Fran propositions Mike (too cute!), and then turned to my BB marathon, I started to confuse the two series and lose track of when what was happening.  BB is LATER in the game, right.  I had to remind myself.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Captanne

[hincandenza]

I'm marathoning BB right now and, yes, there is something to be said for it!!  (Up to S5,E8.  Almost done!)

 

One thing I noticed is that the diner (and Fran!) is almost indistinguishable between BCS and BB.  It's so identical that last night, as I watched BCS "Nailed" where Fran propositions Mike (too cute!), and then turned to my BB marathon, I started to confuse the two series and lose track of when what was happening.  BB is LATER in the game, right.  I had to remind myself.

 

I'm happy to hear that, and that you're enjoying it!  S5E8, and its last scene, are what launched us into one of the greatest half-seasons of TV history.  Those last 8 episodes are incredible to watch.  I'm kind of envious of you, being able to watch it now with fresh eyes!

[TVFan17]

That means the Ozymandias episode of BB is coming up (for Captanne) -- which is, by far, one of the finest episodes of any TV show, ever.  Absolutely riveting, from beginning to end -- and heartbreaking too.

[Umbelina]

Yeah, I don't think any show will ever beat the excellence of BB when it came to wrapping it up.  So very well done, on every level.

[TVFan17]

I think I actually preferred the Ozymandias episode of BB better than the 2 episodes that followed it -- including Felina -- because it had so much good stuff in it.  Suspense, drama, horror, heartbreak, tension -- not to mention the amazing acting from everyone in that episode -- it was all there.  But, without a doubt, those last several episodes in the home stretch of BB were collectively fantastic, and, in Felina, a couple of the final scenes between different characters were strangely sad, despite being frustrating.  I guess it was because none of it had to turn out that way, and yet it all went so, so wrong!

 

Of course, there were moments of humor in Felina too -- Todd's ringtone.  I will leave it at that.

[shapeshifter]

I'm marathoning BB right now and, yes, there is something to be said for it!!  (Up to S5,E8.  Almost done!)

 

One thing I noticed is that the diner (and Fran!) is almost indistinguishable between BCS and BB.  It's so identical that last night, as I watched BCS "Nailed" where Fran propositions Mike (too cute!), and then turned to my BB marathon, I started to confuse the two series and lose track of when what was happening.  BB is LATER in the game, right.  I had to remind myself.

Remind me (us), does Fran interact with Mike in BrBa?

[Umbelina]

Isn't she the one that comes up and calls him by name when he's meeting Lydia and she's being her usual paranoid self?

[TVFan17]

Yes -- Fran is in that Lydia episode, waiting on Mike at the diner.

[Captanne]

Yep, Fran is SO there -- In "Nailed" she propositions Mike ("You can come plow my driveway anytime...." And he smiles to himself as he looks out the window and takes a sip of his his coffee.  It's ADORBS.)  

 

The very next thing I watched was the next episode in my BB marathon queue -- the one with Fran and the diner scene with Mike and Lydia.  I was so confused for a moment and had to remind myself I was watching the other series set in another time.

Edited April 14, 2016 by Captanne

[ByTor]

You know I have a theory, that people dislike Skylar because Gilligan wanted them to dislike Skylar.

Exactly. She was IMO extraordinarily unlikeable (I especially hated her when she followed Marie around ordering her to apologize for the tiara theft instead of being compassionate and trying to get her help for her kleptomania), and she almost had to be to prop Walter. My hating Skylar had nothing to do with her being female.*

 

Of course, there were moments of humor in Felina too -- Todd's ringtone.  I will leave it at that.

My all time favorite TV moment ever is from Felina & involves Gretchen & Elliott, and I'll leave it at that (like you, I don't want to spoil anything) :)

* Many out there, Anna Gunn herself, accuse detractors of that, and while that may be the case for some, it isn't for all.

Edited April 14, 2016 by ByTor

[Umbelina]

I agree with the letting moments linger comments about the two shows.  It was, in my opinion, done much better, and with more purpose in BB.  With BCS, so much of it doesn't work for me, mostly because of the "rinse and repeat" factor.  I LOVE the slow build, and the no rush, let the moments breathe, but not in and of itself.

 

Shameless plug for my favorite show on TV right now, certainly not quite as good as BB, but far better, IMO, than BCS (although BCS is finally stepping it up.)  If you like that "letting the moments and characters breathe" style, you guys should really watch The Americans.  It has that, slow build, incredible tension even if it's just a scene where nothing is really happening on screen, but it combines it with the occasional explosive or fascinating moments that keep you on the edge of your seat.  If you liked BB, you should really give The American's a shot.

Edited April 14, 2016 by Umbelina

[Irlandesa]

* Many out there, Anna Gunn herself, accuse detractors of that, and while that may be the case for some, it isn't for all.

This is an iffy subject because certainly, it wasn't the case for all detractors. 

 

Still, an ugly undercurrent tends to pop up more when it's a woman pushing back against the protagonist than when it's a man.  And certain characteristics in women/female characters are shaded more negatively when discussed than when they appear in men/male characters. It can happen sometimes without the person holding the opinion realizing they might have a double standard since it's usually focused on character rather than the characteristic.

 

So no, not completely related to gender.  Not completely unrelated either.  However, I don't agree that she was written in a way with the intention we don't like her. I think she was written as a complex person with her flaws and positives like any other character.   I recall the show runners being surprised at the heat she got for not trusting Walt and challenging him while he was lying to her constantly.

 

And to be fair to Anna, she was getting rape and death threats made against her character and her personally.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Irlandesa

[Umbelina]

I think I actually preferred the Ozymandias episode of BB better than the 2 episodes that followed it -- including Felina -- because it had so much good stuff in it.  Suspense, drama, horror, heartbreak, tension -- not to mention the amazing acting from everyone in that episode -- it was all there.  But, without a doubt, those last several episodes in the home stretch of BB were collectively fantastic, and, in Felina, a couple of the final scenes between different characters were strangely sad, despite being frustrating.  I guess it was because none of it had to turn out that way, and yet it all went so, so wrong!

 

Of course, there were moments of humor in Felina too -- Todd's ringtone.  I will leave it at that.

Vince Gilligan thought it was the best episode too.

 

I watched it again last night, and then watched it with the commentary.  Perfection.  In every single way. 

[TVFan17]

If I remember correctly, Vince Gilligan said that he had several different ideas in mind for what would happen towards the end of BB's run -- all sorts of grim scenarios that he considered including in the story.  One such scenario was Skyler suffering a tragic fate.  I wonder how viewers would have reacted if he had gone through with that development.

[Umbelina]

She kind of did.  Poor, aging, living in an apartment with the few remnants of her possessions, and God knows if her sister ever really recovered from her husband's murder. 

 

As for her death?  It would have been completely in the realm of possibility several times. 

 

I loved the ending so much, I can't imagine anything better, and her ending conversation with Walt was a total gift, along with that, I'm happy that Walt jr. will be able to go to college worry free, and hopefully use that money so his sister can as well, and his mom can stop working to pay the bills before she hits old age.

[Captanne]

As I'm nearing the end of my personal Breaking Bad Marathon (S5,E11 starts this evening-so I expect I'll finish the series by bedtime), I am thinking that, in many ways, Chuck reminds me of Hank Schrader.

 

They both are tenacious and extremely good at what they do.  Better than anyone else, in fact.  It's possible, knowing far less about Chuck than we do about Hank, that Chuck is as brilliant a lawyer as Hank was a DEA Agent.  

 

They also are the banes of the anti-heroes of the shows.  The folks you love to watch work but you almost want them to lose.  It's easy to forget that, because they are on the side of "right", they are the good guys it's hard to root for.

 

Sometime ago, I watched Hannibal through and through.  I'm a fan of the franchise from the old, old days and don't really like the direction it took when, ironically enough, Hannibal himself effectively ate the entire storyline.   (Ed. Note:  He started as a bit part much longer in a paperback novel set in the 80s.)  ANYway, I digress.  On a vastly more grand scale, it was sort of hard to remember that Hannibal was a villain in this dramatic, operatic, lush production on television with Hugh Dancy and Mads Mikkelson.  He was more of a Dracula-type seducer and (women, especially) fell for his particular evil hook, line, and sinker.  I found myself constantly being the boring one in the corner crying out, "BUT HE EATS PEOPLE."

 

I feel that way, a little, about Walter White.  He is a terrible, terrible, ~terrible~ human being.  The ends he goes to and what he allows himself to become is a horrorshow.  But Gilligan still sucks the viewer into being able to see his side.

 

Until what I call my "Hannibal" moment when Hank discovers who Heisenberg is.  It's at that moment, and the second in the garage confrontation when Walt says, "Hank, if what you think is true -- you might want to tread lightly" drops the full weight of Walt's transformation on Hank's head and on this viewer.

 

By this point, Walt is a fiend, nothing less.

 

I don't feel that way about Saul -- although he's been a gas to watch transform.

 

But I do feel that Chuck is playing the Hank role if we were to parallel the characters between BB and BCS. 

[ByTor]

Still, an ugly undercurrent tends to pop up more when it's a woman pushing back against the protagonist than when it's a man.

 

Can't argue that.

I don't agree that she was written in a way with the intention we don't like her. I think she was written as a complex person with her flaws and positives like any other character.

Even though I do think we were intended not to like her, (and I for one didn't!), oddly I DID see her as you said, a complex person with flaws and positives. While I thought her flaws outweighed the positives, I loved her character (while not liking her, if that makes sense) and wouldn't have wanted her any different.

And to be fair to Anna, she was getting rape and death threats made against her character and her personally.

That's sick. I wonder if anyone making the threats ever faced any consequences.

If you liked BB, you should really give The American's a shot.

I did...and I thought it was among the worst shows I've ever seen! Different strokes :)

I feel that way, a little, about Walter White.  He is a terrible, terrible, ~terrible~ human being.  The ends he goes to and what he allows himself to become is a horrorshow.  But Gilligan still sucks the viewer into being able to see his side.

It sounds like you're describing me! I know WW was a bad person (and I don't mean Willy Wonka :)), and there is no way I'd associate with someone like him IRL, yet I ALWAYS managed to find an excuse for him (yes, even for the Brock incident!).

[Captanne]

By Tor, God willing, I find I'm a bit more like Pinkman.  I'm held aghast by Brock and Drew Sharpe.  Without having seen the last few episodes yet, I think Todd's immediate response to seeing Drew Sharpe and then Todd's numb response after is a GINORMOUS clue into a psychopathic undercurrent of the mix Walter White ended up in.  That very moment in the desert under the trestle when Todd instinctively pulled the trigger -- he might as well have killed Walt and Jesse (figuratively) as well.  The folks we've met up until now in the drug trade are bad enough -- but the sort of slithering Evil that Todd represents is quite a different thing entirely.

 

Drug dealers are business people.  

 

The likes of Todd are aimless zombies who are only in the game for the pure enjoyment of the mayhem justified by rage and resentment for vague, ill-defined, and possibly imagined slights.  They are unpredictable, bafflingly motivated, and arbitrary.

 

During Hannibal -- the forums are still here for anyone interested in the archives -- I kept reminding myself that Hannibal is a complete monster.  It was easier in Hannibal to keep one's eye on the balance of good and evil because it was luxurious but also very cartoonish.

 

BB and BCS are playing in a much more realistic arena.  It's harder to keep good and evil separate.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Captanne

[ShadowFacts]

 

But I do feel that Chuck is playing the Hank role if we were to parallel the characters between BB and BCS.

 

I never thought of it this way, but I like the idea.  In my view, Chuck wouldn't veer away from the rules the way Hank did.  But Hank mostly did because of testosterone poisoning and Mike-style pragmatism (beating suspects, etc.).  Chuck would never act that way, but still, Hank's moral compass is truer.  Chuck has no problem acting in a fully legal way against his brother and Kim for very petty and vengeful reasons.  Hank doesn't have that motivation, he wants to rid the streets of Albuquerque of murderous drug dealers, and protect his sister-in-law and niece and nephew, and make Walt accountable. 

 

 

By Tor, God willing, I find I'm a bit more like Pinkman.  I'm held aghast by Brock and Drew Sharpe.  Without having seen the last few episodes yet, I think Todd's immediate response to seeing Drew Sharpe and then Todd's numb response after is a GINORMOUS clue into a psychopathic undercurrent of the mix Walter White ended up in.  That very moment in the desert under the trestle when Todd instinctively pulled the trigger -- he might as well have killed Walt and Jesse (figuratively) as well.  The folks we've met up until now in the drug trade are bad enough -- but the sort of slithering Evil that Todd represents is quite a different thing entirely.

 

I have the Pinkman response, also.  I can't remember if Walt's ultimate reaction has happened yet, so don't want to spoil you, but I personally couldn't abide it.  And the Brock incident, nope, inexcusable.  The way Walt thinks of innocent kids vs. the way Jesse does--very starkly different.