S01.E07: Soldier Boy

[AmandaPanda]

The end is near, and Jake is not up to the task. Sadie scrambles to pick up the pieces, but no one knows the mission as well as Jake. Kennedy and the assassin are on a collision path — but has Jake changed things enough in the past to alter the course of events? The days are counting down as 11.22.63 draws near.

[GreekGeek]

I'm the first to comment? Wow!

 

The countdown to 11/22/63 was a nice way to ratchet up the suspense, though I wish the titles didn't keep reminding us how many days until the assassination, as if we couldn't count.

 

A lot of time was eaten up by Jake moping around and struggling with amnesia. I thought he was going to blurt out something that would blow what was left of his cover. It's amazing he got his head together at all, since he had to remember two lives--his 2016 one and his 1963 one.

 

Best scene: Marguerite and Lee's old report card. It's bothered me that Cherry Jones was billed so high and then given almost nothing to do. One minor quibble--she spoke as if Lee were an only child, although if I recall the book accurately he had a brother who was Mr. Straight Arrow.

 

Poor Bill! The parallels with Jake were all too apparent by his confusion. Imagine what was going through his head: "Jake is my brother...no, Jake is my friend...no, Jake is from the future...no, that's crazy talk..." What a foolish doctor to leave him unsupervised in a room on a top floor with an open window.

 

Lee seemed so mild and nice in this episode apart from his scene in the FBI office that it was hard to imagine him as a killer. Sadie couldn't see him as one either.

 

What was the Yellow Card Man babbling about trying to save a girl from drowning? 

[numbnut]

What's with all the timestamps all of a sudden? Did the book suddenly truncate the final chapters like that? Seems a bit lazy IMO. Poor Bill. When I saw that open window with no bars I knew someone would be diving out of it. Interesting that Oswald was so close to calling off his mission. I'm not clear on why Jake didn't anonymously warn police about a shooter at the depository, especially after he saw cops taking precautions the night before the event (though no one blinks an eye as LHO carries a rifle-shaped package across the motorcade route). Hopefully Sadie won't get shot.

[ganesh]

I wasn't too into this one and E6. Because Jake is terrible at logistics. I don't know how the old guy was able to communicate with Jake either. Though I did like how he was saying that you're going to screw it up over and over again. I suggested Jake might end up wasting his life in a time loop. 

 

I still think Jake needs to reset though just because Bill's death is on him. And is Sadie Ride Or Die or what? She dropped that she was in Lisbon right around the time Jake appeared, so he could catch her before she got married and they could avoid her being scarred. 

 

I was hoping that if there was a conspiracy it would involve the mafia, but I think I like LHO just deciding to kill the president because his mommy had a report card and said he has "potential". I liked the scene where he picked up the paper and essentially decided to do it on the park bench. It was much better than yelling at the woman in the FBI office. Crazy is creepier when it's just quiet malice. 

 

I did like the scene where Jake remembers.

 

Given that Jake knows the past is going to push back, I would think he would have developed way better contingencies than just drive to Dallas and wait. Call the police ahead of time. Send Sadie to the police. Break into the building at night. You literally know the exact place that LHO takes the shot. I did think trying to find the gun was a decent idea.

 

If Jake is going to reset, I would have preferred we get to this point by E5 or E6 and see more of the reset. 

Edited March 29, 2016 by ganesh

[Tinfoil Hat]

The "xx days until assassination!!!" really irritated me.

Also, isn't it just a *planned* or *anticipated* assassination at this point? Those titles left me wondering if they were giving away part of the story.

I was so bummed that Miz Mimi died. I was hoping that she and Jake might talk about the future.

[Riplet68]

Well, that explains the anamoly of Bill. Still have the problem of all the hospital staff Bill told what was going to happen I thought that the assassination would be this episode, and the next would be all about the aftermath. I hope they dont change the end of the book, it was one of the few Stephen King book endings I found satisfying.

[ganesh]

Well, it's like 2 minutes to the assassination. So next episode could be mostly the aftermath. 

Edited March 29, 2016 by ganesh

[reggiejax]

One minor quibble--she spoke as if Lee were an only child, although if I recall the book accurately he had a brother who was Mr. Straight Arrow.

 

IRL he had two brothers, Robert Oswald and John Pic. Oldest brother John Pic was half brother to Lee and Robert. Lee was not close to John, but he was very close to Robert. Or as close as a loner like Lee could be to anyone, that is.  

 

While Lee was not an only child, his brothers were 7 and 5 years older than him, and each got away from their mother as quickly as they could, both joining the service. This would leave Lee alone with his mother during some very formative years, and make of it what you will, but this was also the time where Lee became fascinated with communism. Despite his budding communism, Lee would follow his brothers example and leave his mother at age 17 to join the Marines.

 

I do believe the report card, which had a note from the teacher saying Lee had "potential", was true to life. But Lee's mother, Marguerite, certainly did not show him the card days before the assassination. In fact when his mother visited him in jail after the assassination, that was the first they had seen of each other in well over a year. 11.22.63 does not portray it that way, but to say Lee was estranged from his mother is putting it lightly. In fact, while in custody, he berated Marina for letting her get involved. As if Marina had any say in the matter.

 

I do agree they seem to have gone out of the way to cast a good actress, Cherry Jones, just to have her do nothing. Perhaps the next episode we will see more of Marguerite Oswald. I hope for Cherry Jones' sake, as it is the last episode of the series. If not, people can catch a great, and far more accurate, portray of Marguerite Oswald in the 2013 film "Parkland". She is played by Jacki Weaver, who knocks it out of the park.

 

Still have the problem of all the hospital staff Bill told what was going to happen I thought that the assassination would be this episode, and the next would be all about the aftermath.

 

Perhaps history has changed, and now Bill is the Cassandra of the assassination, rather than Rose Cheramie. Cheramie (whose story is immortalized at the beginning of the movie JFK) was a prostitute who was picked up by police wandering alone, in a daze, on the highway. She was taken into custody and hospitalized. During this time she claimed, among many other things, that the President was going to be killed. She made this claim a day or two before the assassination. I won't go into detail, but suffice it to say that much more was made out of this incident than ever needed to be.

 

As for this episode, it kind of left me flat. It rushed through everything, as if even the show was being impatient and just wanted to get to the fireworks factory, I mean Book Depository. 

Edited March 29, 2016 by reggiejax

[shapeshifter]

What was the Yellow Card Man babbling about trying to save a girl from drowning?

My unspoiled take on it: He said it was his daughter, and that he tried to save her over and over. So I'm guessing he too is a time traveler, and when he said Jake didn't belong there, he was stating an observation of an anomaly in the past, and probably figured Jake was another time traveler. I guess when he showed up in the hospital, he was trying to warn Jake; perhaps he had read about Sadie's death in a hospital accident in a newspaper in previous trips back to that time, and had been tracking Jake because he was an anomaly. Even though he was insane after countless, fruitless attempts to save his daughter, he might have made a better assistant that Bill.

Poor Bill. Still, in his short life he fell in love and met a time traveler.

I'm not clear on why Jake didn't anonymously warn police about a shooter at the depository, especially after he saw cops taking precautions the night before the event

You literally know the exact place that LHO takes the shot.

If there's a reset, either call it in or lay in wait in the room and shoot Oswald as he gets set up. to take the shot. All the cops would find was a dead wannabe assassin.

[ganesh]

I know the whole point is that the "past pushes back", so it might not be that easy, but still. Jake wants to sleep in the car nearby and doesn't consider it might not start after actually saying the past will push back. 

 

He knows Oswald is acting alone now, so why not reset? Try to get him at the airport. If you blow it, you've got nearly 3 years to try again. We know Jake can bring things back to the past, since he had his phone on him, and took the knife to carve the tree. Get a gun, spend a few years practicing and bring it back.

 

Forewarned is forearmed, and no one is as forewarned as Jake. 

[shapeshifter]

I know the whole point is that the "past pushes back", so it might not be that easy, but still. Jake wants to sleep in the car nearby and doesn't consider it might not start after actually saying the past will push back.

He knows Oswald is acting alone now, so why not reset? Try to get him at the airport. If you blow it, you've got nearly 3 years to try again. We know Jake can bring things back to the past, since he had his phone on him, and took the knife to carve the tree. Get a gun, spend a few years practicing and bring it back.

Forewarned is forearmed, and no one is as forewarned as Jake.

As soon as they turned on the radio in the parked car, I suspected the battery would die.

His #1 motive to not reset is that he wants to live happily after ever with Sadie, and that might not happen in a reset--although if the next season is a reset, it could turn out they are eternal soul mates--which sounds a little shark jumpy to me.

If he does reset, learning Russian might not hurt either.

Edited March 29, 2016 by shapeshifter

[ganesh]

Is there going to be another season?

 

I would argue that Jake returns to Lisbon with Sadie to see if she can return to 2016 with him. If she can, then there's no worries. Take a couple years to learn Russian, shoot, record sporting events, etc. She'd be totally into it. 

 

If she can't return, then *before they try*, she should write a note to herself to give to Jake. Or, if idiot didn't throw his phone away, he could have actually made a recording of her. I suppose he could look her up in 2016 too, as an old woman, and she could do the recording and write the note in the present too. He could leave her the address of 2016-diner, and the date where she could meet him. Old 2016 Sadie could go back with Jake herself and physically talk to reset-young-Sadie.

 

I thought of all that in like 2 minutes, so I assume in the 1500 miles from Dallas to Lisbon it won't even cross Jake's mind. For that matter, Sadie might be the one to tell Jake to reset too. 

[hincandenza]

Aw, poor Bill. :( All he wanted was to bang some hoo-ers (TM Frank Reynolds) and find love with Marina.

I hate that TV trope where someone just has to talk at the worst possible time. Jesus, Jake, the poor guy is clearly traumatized- no thanks to you- maybe wait till you've had him released and get home before you blow his now-fragile mind. More like Jerk Amberson, am I right?!?

Actually, Jake is so comically inept, and considering the roles Franco usually takes, I could see this show having been done as a comedy instead, with the laugh a minute hijinks of our bumbling stoner time traveler who can't do anything right. Heck, he saved the janitor's family, but I think at last count even if he saves JFK, he'll have ended more lives than he's saved- either directly, or through the past stopping him. Presumably he's never seen Back to the Future; Jake is to time travel what the Grimes crew is to zombies.

Unless we get a finale twist, such as stopping Oswald only to find out the CIA/mafia shoot JFK anyway, it's surprising this show is going with the lone gunman theory, although presumably something will go wrong trying to stop Oswald. I'm also unclear why at least a few phone calls wouldn't be a good enough start: "This acquaintance of mine LHO has been talking crazy, and I think he going to try to shoot the president today, since he works at the book depository today". Yeah, I'm sure The Past would stop even that, but at that point you shrug your shoulders, tip your cap, and head back to 2015 with Sadie.

Speaking of which, I think since about the third or fourth episode I realized his time travel adventures and whether he stops Oswald were less interesting than what he does after. Does he stay in the past, or head back? Does he get arrested or framed? Will he bring Sadie with him- if he can? If he does succeed, what world will he go back to? Given the yellow card man's monologue this episode, it'd be funny if the time portal wasn't about the daughter or JFK, but something totally different and these guys just stumbled on it.

I'm curious what y'all think the YCM meant about being trapped. He seems to have special abilities, either from being in the past so long, or because he opened the portal himself. Do you think he's warning Jake he'll never succeed and become obsessed like he did, or that Jake will actually become truly trapped in a time loop, unable to ever go back or stop the assassination?

[Milburn Stone]

The countdown to 11/22/63 was a nice way to ratchet up the suspense, though I wish the titles didn't keep reminding us how many days until the assassination, as if we couldn't count.

 

Yeah. I'm finding things to enjoy about the show, but it isn't exactly aimed at the highest common denominator, if you know what I mean. 

[shapeshifter]

Is there going to be another season?

 

I would argue that Jake returns to Lisbon with Sadie to see if she can return to 2016 with him. If she can, then there's no worries. Take a couple years to learn Russian, shoot, record sporting events, etc. She'd be totally into it. 

 

If she can't return, then *before they try*, she should write a note to herself to give to Jake. Or, if idiot didn't throw his phone away, he could have actually made a recording of her. I suppose he could look her up in 2016 too, as an old woman, and she could do the recording and write the note in the present too. He could leave her the address of 2016-diner, and the date where she could meet him. Old 2016 Sadie could go back with Jake herself and physically talk to reset-young-Sadie.

 

I thought of all that in like 2 minutes, so I assume in the 1500 miles from Dallas to Lisbon it won't even cross Jake's mind. For that matter, Sadie might be the one to tell Jake to reset too.

I go with the bolded idea, because the internal show logic of time travel states that if someone returns to 2016, all changes in the 60s are wiped out, so, to me that means Sadie does not leave 1963 if Jake returns to 2016. If they really want that to happen, maybe it could be done on midnight of December 31, 1963 or something.

[GreekGeek]

I go with the bolded idea, because the internal show logic of time travel states that if someone returns to 2016, all changes in the 60s are wiped out, so, to me that means Sadie does not leave 1963 if Jake returns to 2016. If they really want that to happen, maybe it could be done on midnight of December 31, 1963 or something.

The changes would only be wiped out if the time traveler went back to the past again. Which raises a paradox: If Jake returned to 2016 with Sadie, didn't like what he saw for whatever reason, and decided to return to the past with her, where would she be after journeying through the rabbit hole? In Maine with Jake, or back in Texas with Johnny?

[shapeshifter]

The changes would only be wiped out if the time traveler went back to the past again. Which raises a paradox: If Jake returned to 2016 with Sadie, didn't like what he saw for whatever reason, and decided to return to the past with her, where would she be after journeying through the rabbit hole? In Maine with Jake, or back in Texas with Johnny?

Oooh. Right. Thanks for the correction.

So, if he goes back and leaves Sadie in 2016, she disappears from 2016, right?

[ganesh]

I was going to say. That's why Jake could tell 1963 Sadie where and when to meet him in 2016. *If* he returns a second time then we have the reset. Conceivably, 2016-Sadie should be able to go back with Jake and meet new-Sadie in 1960. 

 

Either way, Jake is dumb. I would have taken way more precautions going in. I mean, electricity is the same right? Bring your phone/tablet/whatever, and you can load tons of information on it, take notes, pictures, whatever. 

[hincandenza]

The changes would only be wiped out if the time traveler went back to the past again. Which raises a paradox: If Jake returned to 2016 with Sadie, didn't like what he saw for whatever reason, and decided to return to the past with her, where would she be after journeying through the rabbit hole? In Maine with Jake, or back in Texas with Johnny?

 

Yeah, I don't expect the show, which is not exactly hard sci-fi, to give us any more clear details of the whole time portal/reset button mechanism- especially with one episode left.  This isn't exactly "Primer", after all, or even "Quantum Leap".  :)  This show, I'll enjoy if they just have a satisfying human conclusion, i.e. some cathartic or tidy epilogue for Jake- and hopefully not as some horror ending of Jake trapped in a rut like YCM, or Sound of Thunder twist where the changes Jake has made will result in some dystopian future.  I haven't read the books, but I can see maybe a Sophie's- or Sadie's- Choice where Jake has to go back to reset a worse situation, but knows he can never be with the love of his life.  The simplest solution is that the more Jake changes things, the more the portal changes, either closing completely or shifting to a different exit point if suddenly 2015 is "blocked" by causality due to the changes he's made.  It's probably my most expected ending, that he'll try to go back but can't, leading either to a happy ending (twu wuv with Sadie in the 1960's) or sad one (imprisoned/institutionalized for some action taken while trying to stop Oswald).  

 

But in general, this is what I love about time travel fiction: you can wile away the evening hours just riffing on the stoner-logic of alternate timelines and paradox loops. :)  If anyone goes back through, the timeline resets, so she'll have never been pulled through by Jake... so either she instantly disappears whether she goes through or stays behind, or instead there are two Sadies wandering around the same three and a half year period from 1960-1963.  Actually, that raises a question I hadn't thought of before: which portal did YCM come through?  Did he come through the diner portal from an earlier year, and it's always 55 years offset (which would be useless for saving his young daughter), or always to 1960?  Or are there nested loops going on, or multiple portals scattered throughout various times and places?  Is YCM actually a Langolier in disguise?!? :)

 

Again, I don't expect this show to explain it, but I can't help feeling that the portal isn't and never was about JFK (or the show, for that matter), that's just something Al and then Jake projected on to it because to Al it was the most significant event of that period. Granted, the absurd amount of direct intervention by The Past when Jake was trying to eavesdrop on the Russian at that night club suggests otherwise.

 

I was going to say. That's why Jake could tell 1963 Sadie where and when to meet him in 2016. *If* he returns a second time then we have the reset. Conceivably, 2016-Sadie should be able to go back with Jake and meet new-Sadie in 1960. 

 

Either way, Jake is dumb. I would have taken way more precautions going in. I mean, electricity is the same right? Bring your phone/tablet/whatever, and you can load tons of information on it, take notes, pictures, whatever.

I know!!! Originally I was frustrated by this, but now I just enjoy adding my own sardonic commentary track whenever I can say "Oh, if only you hadn't thrown your iPhone into a river!".  Pocket wikipedia, almanac, and a few other resources, and you're basically golden.  Or even just going back, killing Oswald as soon as possible, then returning.  You don't need to prove anything with detective work: if after that JFK isn't shot in Dallas, then Oswald really was a crazy lone gunman, and it's not like there will be much ripple effect on removing Oswald from the period 1960-1963.  Alternately, if JFK is still killed in Dallas- or at some other time- then you know Oswald was at most a patsy for a much larger conspiracy, so now you can take the time to go back and investigate that.  This comes with the added bonus that if you basically have two assassination attempts at different times depending on whether you kill Oswald, you can gain more information on the key players by comparing/contrasting the history from two timelines.

 

Hell, why didn't Al think of that years ago?!?

Edited March 30, 2016 by hincandenza

[ganesh]

I'm assuming Jake is my age. As I've said before, I only know JFK from history, but I would be interested in finding out what really happened, but not at the expense of my life. I also wouldn't screw up as bad as Jake.

 

Living in the 1960s might not be that bad though. You can get independently wealthy, maybe even run for office and get involved in the civil rights movement. Write awesome scifi books and look like a genius when your predictions come true!

[reggiejax]

I am of the mind that Sadie is simply not able to travel through the Rabbit Hole back to the present. Nor anyone else from the past for that matter. If they were, it stands to reason someone would have gone through it at some point, even if only on accident. The portal is not exactly hidden away. When Jake appears in 1960, it is outdoors, in broad daylight. He seemingly walks back in with ease. Whatever the rules are, they clearly forbid someone from the past going into the present day.

 

Then again, that just brings up the question as to how Al was able to bring back meat for his burgers from the past. Granted, the cow that meat once was is not going to run into itself, causing a paradox. But I wonder, does it disappear from the digestive tracts of whoever has eaten Al's burgers when Al goes back and resets?

 

OK, now I've gone cross-eyed. Thanks a lot, 11.22.63!

[ganesh]

It could be only living matter is barred from transferring into the future. 

 

That's why I offered up Jake telling 1963 Sadie to meet him in Lisbon in 2016 to record pictures/video for Jake to ring back.

[Quando]

 

Or even just going back, killing Oswald as soon as possible, then returning.  You don't need to prove anything with detective work: if after that JFK isn't shot in Dallas, then Oswald really was a crazy lone gunman, and it's not like there will be much ripple effect on removing Oswald from the period 1960-1963.  Alternately, if JFK is still killed in Dallas- or at some other time- then you know Oswald was at most a patsy for a much larger conspiracy, so now you can take the time to go back and investigate that.

Yes, that was my thought exactly.  Al said he didn't just shoot Oswald immediately because he didn't want to take the chance of killing an innocent man.  So fine, go through the portal and kill Oswald immediately, then go back to 2016 and see the effect.  If JFK survived, then Oswald was in fact a lone gunman, and you were justified in killing him.  If JFK was killed anyway, then Oswald was an innocent patsy (or at least not alone in carrying out the assassination).  In that case you can just go back through the portal and everything resets and Oswald is alive again.  At that point, whether you continue to investigate to find the "real" assassins, or just give up and go home to 2016, Oswald is alive again meaning you did not actually (permanently) kill any innocent person.  That would be a lot better than spending years listening to Oswald argue with his wife in Russian and still not knowing for sure if he was a lone gunman (whether he took the shot at Walker or not).

[shapeshifter]

Yes, that was my thought exactly.  Al said he didn't just shoot Oswald immediately because he didn't want to take the chance of killing an innocent man.  So fine, go through the portal and kill Oswald immediately, then go back to 2016 and see the effect.  If JFK survived, then Oswald was in fact a lone gunman, and you were justified in killing him.  If JFK was killed anyway, then Oswald was an innocent patsy (or at least not alone in carrying out the assassination).  In that case you can just go back through the portal and everything resets and Oswald is alive again.  At that point, whether you continue to investigate to find the "real" assassins, or just give up and go home to 2016, Oswald is alive again meaning you did not actually (permanently) kill any innocent person.  That would be a lot better than spending years listening to Oswald argue with his wife in Russian and still not knowing for sure if he was a lone gunman (whether he took the shot at Walker or not).

True. And if Oswald was innocent, stop off on the reset and kill Henry's father and Sadie's husband. Maybe devise a smoke bomb to go off in the motorcade to block visibility for any shooters.

[ganesh]

I think Jake only said he didn't know if he could take Bill back, or just doesn't want to.

[lucindabelle]

The drowning story can't have anything to do with Sadie surely the little girl drowned, not a grown woman. Personally I'd just let history happen at this point. The stakes don't seem that high. I'm not convinced kennedys assassination changed history as much as that.

[vavera4ka]

On ‎3‎/‎28‎/‎2016 at 9:38 PM, numbnut said:

. I'm not clear on why Jake didn't anonymously warn police about a shooter at the depository, especially after he saw cops taking precautions the night before the event (though no one blinks an eye as LHO carries a rifle-shaped package across the motorcade route).

I don't think it's a spoiler, just something that has been left out of the book.

Jake wanted to, or at least thought about it, but with President in town he was afraid there were gazillion of tips and conspiracy ideas floating around that police wouldn't give it another thought.